Kevin Hart and Afrocentrism: Why Some Want His Show Cancelled in Egypt by AvatarMariam Nowar
Earlier this week, American comedian Kevin Hart announced he is scheduled to perform in Egypt on the 21st of February, 2023, during his Reality Check tour.
Mixed reactions swept through the country due to his alleged Afrocentric views, with people demanding that Kevin Hart’s show in Egypt get canceled using the viral hashtag #CancelKevinHartShow on social media. Kevin Hart’s views on the link between ancient Egyptians and Black culture emerged during an episode of ABC’s Shark Tank, where the founders of Black Sands Entertainment pitched an idea of turning their comic books into an animated series and requested a $500,000 investment.
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
Very funny and also very telling how there were no issues when this movie came out...
But they want to "cancel" Kevin Hart, even though his depictions are actually accurate.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
There are Black Egyptian with some having obviously,for a lack of a better word a Negro/negroid phenotype.
Mohamed Ramadan,Big Ramy and Ali Abdelaziz.
One of his followers then chimed in with a pretty disgusting comment about how regrettable it is that Ali’s skin tone resembles his father, saying, “He’s black like his father, it’s a shame that none of his kids took any of their mother’s look or her skin tone."
It didn’t take long for Ramadan to respond saying that he is proud of his skin color and that he will raise his children to be against racism, “I am proud of my color, and the color of my father and children, God created us this way. I am also happy that my children are being raised with parents that have different skin colors, so they can grow up to know that racism is wrong.”
The mostly white cast came under scrutiny as soon as shooting started in 2014. “And so, the time-honored tradition of Hollywood whitewashing continues,” Australian writer Ruby Hamad wrote at the time.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I'm confused? The article isn't written by Ruby Hamad and I haven't heard of this lady until now. I'm not sure what you are getting at?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: I'm confused? The article isn't written by Ruby Hamad and I haven't heard of this lady until now. I'm not sure what you are getting at?
she's mentioned in that CNN article talking about the casting of Gods of Egypt. She had written an article called "All lead actors in The Gods of Egypt will be white". but I haven't been able to find it
her background:
quote:https://www.rubyhamad.com/about Ruby Hamad is an author and academic with a journalism background. She is in the second half of a PhD in media studies at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia.
Her best-selling debut book WHITE TEARS/BROWN SCARS traces the role that White Womanhood and feminism have played in the development of Western power structures. The non-fiction book was inspired by her viral 2018 essay 'How White Women Use Strategic Tears to Silence Women of Colour', which was published in Guardian Australia and became a global flashpoint for discussions of race and gender.
Ruby spent five years as a columnist for Fairfax media's flagship feminist portal Daily Life. Her columns, analysis, literary reviews and essays have also featured in Australian publications The Saturday Paper, Meanjin, Crikey and Eureka St, and internationally in The Guardian, Prospect Magazine, The New York Times, and Gen Medium.
The movie did have Chadwick Boseman as Thoth, the God of Wisdom but the lead actors where "white" and others
If we look at these two situations, the one now with Kevin Hart and this other one from 2016, Gods of Egypt, the interpretation of the whole thing is complex. At this point I am just showing some references to commentary in the media on both, not trying to make a particular point. This thing with Kevin Hart seems to be coming out of the Egyptian media, you'll see several articles if you google, not as many in U.S. media yet but that could be coming. There are several youtube commentary videos, mainly supportive of Hart but I'm not sure what's going on in Arabic. The Youssef Othman one is in Arabic on Twitter
on this poster
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau as Horus
Gerard Butler as Set
Élodie Yung as Hathor . Directed by Alexander Proyas Australian filmmaker of Greek descent. Proyas is best known for directing the films The Crow (1994), Dark City (1998), I, Robot (2004), Knowing (2009), and Gods of Egypt (2016).
. Élodie Yung (as Hathor in Gods of Egypt)
Her father is Cambodian and her mother is French (who would have been able to guess that?) .
.
for comparison: Ruby Hamad, Lebanese-Syrian journalist, Australian national
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
who is more likely to have an ancestor who lived in ancient Egypt?
I don't know, you can't tell by looking and there is not much known about either of their backgrounds
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
When Egyptians make their own films about ancient Egypt the result can be a film like The Emigrant which is discussed in this thread
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Women of Egypt Mag An Advocacy Movement to Empower the Women of Egypt
JANUARY 20, 2021 Colorism Within Egypt | Susan Emam January 19, 2021 By: Susan Emam
Photo by Henar Sherif and Adel Essam – O-art-studio (No Color Project) “…Skin colour will continue to serve as the most obvious criterion in determining how a person will be evaluated and judged.”
This was written by Lori L. Tharps in her book titled, “Same Family Different Colors”. While this book is centred around confronting Colorism within the United States, this same intersection between skin tone and privilege is applicable to modern Egyptian society.
Colorism was first coined by feminist writer Alice Walker to describe the global systemic bias towards those with Afrocentric features. It is a colonial ideology that was imposed upon indigenous communities by European settlers and has unfortunately persisted into modern day society. This bias exists on both an unconscious and conscious level and serves to privilege those with Eurocentric features (lighter skin, straight hair, thinner lips and narrow nose) while disadvantaging those with Afrocentric features (darker skin, curly hair, fuller lips and broad nose).
The pressure to fit into this unrealistic Eurocentric mold is disproportionately felt by women that are low income. This intersection between class and gender is integral when understanding why people may have these views about themselves and others. It is important to lead compassionately when engaging in Colorism discourse and approach this topic through a lens of healing rather than condemnation and shame.
In my personal experience, I was often on the receiving end of comments that made me uncomfortable, and made me confront my privilege as a light-skinned woman with straight hair in Egyptian society. When I tried to discuss Colorism with my Egyptian family and friends, it was often dismissed or it was considered something that was the norm. It became clear to me that there was an accepted distinction between Egyptians with light skin and those that had dark skin.
Ironically, few fit this Eurocentric mold. While there is great diversity amongst Egyptian people, the majority tend to have darker skin tones and curly hair textures. Those with features that are Afrocentric leaning can expect to be looked upon unfavourably by society at large—from family members, teachers and future employers. In this way, it can inhibit access to opportunities.
The late Egyptian Filmmaker Nada Zatouna described her experience as a Nubian woman living in Cairo in the docuseries, “Words from the Egyptian Revolution”. She highlighted her experience growing up in Cairo where she was often asked if she was from Sudan or another neighbouring country. Even though it is well known that people in the upper Egyptian region are known to have darker skin and curlier hair textures, she was constantly placed in a position where she had to justify her Egyptian heritage.
Women rights activist Entesar al-Saeid has attributed the root of these biases to the Egyptian media. Within the entertainment industry, light-skinned actors with coloured eyes and straight hair dominate cinema. The predominant narrative is that light-skinned characters are intelligent, beautiful and deserving of love and opportunities. Dark-skinned characters with Afrocentric features are portrayed as illiterate, domestic workers and overall as less deserving. The 2019 black-face scandal with Shimaa Seif in the prank show titled Shaklabaz exemplifies how topical this issue remains. In an offensive depiction of a Sudanese woman, Shimaa painted her skin dark and was seen attempting to steal phones while drinking alcohol on a microbus.
Shimaa Seif in Shaklabaz portraying a Sudanese woman The unattainable Eurocentric ideal has been capitalized by corporations in the form of skin-lightening products. They are marketed in the form of creams, pills and injections that are designed to slow the production of melanin. These toxic chemicals are marketed to consumers through the harmful narrative that having lighter skin will provide greater access to life opportunities. Within the last year, Egyptian women have also begun taking toxic chlorine baths to achieve their desired skin tone. These practices have extremely serious side effects that can lead to irreversible health complications. While many countries have banned skin-lighting products and practices, Egypt has failed to do the same.
The diversity of Egyptians is beautiful and it is something that should be embraced rather than shamed. Though the colonial imposition of colorist ideology runs very deeply within Egyptian society, I believe it can be unlearned.
If you are someone that has previously or currently engaged in these behaviours towards yourself or others, recognize that the first step is always awareness. We all suffer from varying degrees of unconsciousness, and it is important to approach yourself with compassion and understanding. What is learned can be unlearned, and a cycle of perpetuating damaging narratives can be broken.
If you are a beneficiary from this system like I am, the most important thing to do is listen. Listen to people of color speak about their experiences. Educate and inform yourself on how you are afforded privilege and opportunities in society. Use your privilege to allow people of colour, or those that have a darker complexion than you, to have the space to speak. Most importantly: remain critical of your position in society, of advertising and media. Empower yourself and others to resist believing in colonial narratives, and embrace the beauty in the diversity that Egypt has to offer.
Susan Emam is a first generation Egyptian Canadian. She is in her second year of law school at the University of Alberta and will complete her Juris Doctorate by 2022.
One comment Reem JANUARY 20, 2021 AT 5:19 PM Well said! As someone who experienced colorism, thank you for this
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Racism in the Middle East: The Arab films and TV that promote hatred Joseph Fahim argues that Black representation is negligible at best in Middle East mainstream culture, from movies to social media
Throughout its history, Arab entertainment has marginalised and lampooned Africans (screengrabs) By Joseph Fahim Published date: 25 June 2020 10:07 UTC | Last update: 2 years 5 months
In September 2005, nearly 2,500 Black Sudanese asylum seekers in Egypt began protesting at their destitute conditions. Men, women and children started to camp at the park in Cairo’s Mustafa Mahmoud Square, part of the middle-class neighbourhood of Mohandessin.
Marginalised by the authorities, their demands were simple: give them refugee rights; or let them be resettled in a different country. They were ignored, so refused to leave the space.
Bullet in the Heart film An anonymous Nubian extra plays the role of a bar tender in A Bullet in the Heart (Rosasa fi al-kalb) from 1944 (screengrab) On 30 December, the police violently waded in to clear the square. By the end of the raid, according to official reports, at least 20 unarmed Sudanese citizens had been murdered, including women and children. Other reports put the number at three times that or even higher. The massacre was largely overlooked by the Egyptian media and the public and quickly forgotten.
One week later, I was walking down a street in the affluent Cairo neighbourhood of Hadayek El Qubba, which housed a school for Sudanese refugees. Several teenagers were leaving at the end of the day. Then, a group of young Egyptians ganged up on them, before singling out one kid who was smaller than the rest. They separated him from the rest of the group and started circling him as they embarked on a tirade of racist mockery.
There was one word that the Egyptian hooligans kept calling him: “Othmana”, a feminine derivative of “Othman” and a name used in a racist context for several decades thanks to Egyptian cinema.
How racist caricatures are born These incidents came to mind in the wake of the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the subsequent protests and condemnation worldwide, including across the Middle East and North Africa.
How groups in society perceive each other is framed by different factors, including upbringing and learned experience. Another is the influence of media and entertainment. There was an irony, then, in how some sections of Egyptian society tried to show solidarity, especially online, with Black Americans and the #BlackLivesMatter movement.
" June 2020: Black youths in Tunis protest against the death of George Floyd (AFP) That’s because no other ethnicity has been belittled and ridiculed in Arab entertainment, which is dominated by the Egyptian industry as the region’s most populous nation, as much as Africans, from Arab-language films of the 1930s to Hollywood blockbusters in the present day.
Before Sudanese refugees arrived in Egypt after the country’s civil wars, Egypt’s Black population was chiefly comprised of Nubians from northern Sudan and southern Egypt, who had long resided on the banks of the upper Nile. They were estimated to constitute around three percent of the country’s population by 2015.
From the early days of Egyptian cinema during the 1930s, Nubians were cast in subordinate roles, such as servants or concierges, who were either invisible or else there to be mocked at; meek, resourceless people, with little intelligence, little talent, little agency.
As Viola Shafik wrote in Arab Cinema: History & Cultural Identity in 1998: “The two Nubian languages have not been used in a single film. Even visually the Nubian minority has been misrepresented.” For decades, any Black male character was always known as “Othman,” a cast extra whose sole function was to cheer on the lighter-skinned protagonists.
"El-Kassar positioned this black character within the Egyptian national family,” writes Alon Tam, at the University of Pennsylvania, “even pitching him as an all-Egyptian figure. At the same time, he undermined this position by marking Othman's skin colour and accent as inferior, and by associating him with other ‘foreign’-Egyptians.”
A rare exception was the widely popular character of Othman Abdel-Basset, the brainchild of comedian Ali El-Kassar (1887-1957), from 1935 until 1944. El-Kassar himself was not Nubian: born in Cairo, he mingled with the city’s Nubian community before he invented a racial caricature, complete with cracked accent, coy body language and reserved demeanour.
Othman Abdel-Basset became the most well-known Black character in Egyptian pop culture, giving Nubians a spectrum of emotions rare to the Arab screen. It was one of the very few - if only – instances of a Nubian character taking centre stage in mainstream Egyptian film.
To El-Kassar’s credit, he strived to create a working-class hero, ascribing him jobs - such as pie-seller or government employee - that differed from the usual servant-concierge ghetto. And there’s undeniably great humanity and playfulness in the character.
But Abdel-Basset still suffered from the cliches that have addled Black characterisation since, shaping how many Egyptians have perceived Africans for decades to come.
By the 1960s, when Nubians had been displaced in the wake of dam construction, first under the British protectorate and then the Egyptian government, Black characters were still relegated to the periphery of the screen. Blatant racist mockery had intensified and become the norm.
Even to be perceived as dark-skinned could stall a career. Ahmed Zaki (1949-2005) became one of the most popular stars of his generation - but in his early days, producers were reluctant to cast him, most notably in the classic adaptation of El Karnak (1975), despite being backed by director Ali Badrakhan. The role eventually went to the lighter-skinned Nour El-Sherif.
Nour El-Sherif (left) replaced the darker-skinned Ahmed Zaki in the 1975 film El Karnak (screengrab) The examples continue into the 21st century. In the 2001 feature Africano, directed by Amr Arafa and starring Ahmed El-Sakka and Mona Zaki, one character shouts: "Is there a power cut in there or something?" as a group of Africans enter a nightclub.
“Your night is as black as your face,” the titular protagonist of Muhammad al-Najjar’s 2005 comedy, Ali Spicy, tells an escort hired by his uncle. “If you turn off the lights, nobody would see her.”
According to a study by the Border Center for Support and Consulting, 51 Egyptian films between 2007 and 2016 featured stereotypical depictions of Africans.
Racism in the digital age Casual racism is not just restricted to cinema: with the explosion of TV and then digital platforms, so it has also spread to smaller screens.
In the 2018 comedy Azmi We Ashgan, Africans are depicted as uncivilised servants who practice sorcery (there’s also a very liberal use of the n-word).
In 2019, the prank show Shaklabaz (above), depicted TV comedian Shaimaa Seif wearing blackface to play an uncouth Sudanese woman on a congested minibus
And Egyptian actor Maged El Masry told an anecdote during a talk show about being set up with a group of African girls whom he instantly kicked out of his car.
But such racism is not restricted to Egypt.
In Tunisia and Morocco, it's rare that you will see Black TV anchors or presenters: not only does this fail to reflect the countries' ethnic composition, it also stops younger Africans from trying to enter the profession. There is also Nasser al-Qasabi, playing the primitive simpleton in the Saudi Arabian sitcom No Big Deal (Tash ma tash). The Kuwaiti series The Block of Jokes (Block Ghashmara) also had one episode where its two leads donned blackface, playing a pair of gregarious, uncivilised desert dwellers.
Indeed, it is blackface that is the most glaring example of racism in MENA entertainment. One might expect the younger generation in MENA to reject such archaisms, as practised by legendary action star Farid Shawky in the period drama Antara Ibn Shaddad (1961).
Two examples of blackface in pop videos by Egyptian singer Boshra (left) and the Lebanese star Myriam Fares (screengrabs). Not so: it has simply been repurposed for the 21st century. In the last few years, blackface has surfaced in the music videos of Egyptian singer Boshra and the Lebanese star Myriam Fares. Online, there was a resurgence in recent weeks as Blackfacing Arab actors and singers took to social media and mistook fetishisation and cultural appropriation for solidarity: culprits included Tania Saleh, Moroccan actor Mariam Hussein, and Algerian actor and singer Souhila Ben Lachhab.
In January 2020, Black Algerian Khadija Ben Hamou was subjected to racist abuse online when she was crowned Miss Algeria. One commentator wrote that he initially thought “she was a man” and that her face “is hideous".
In 2020, in Arab entertainment, Blackness is still presented as something that is ugly and dangerous, or else hip, cool and to be crassly appropriated. In this respect, parallels can be drawn with the West’s attitude towards the Middle East, which historically encompasses both orientalism and reductivity, such as the Hollywood terrorist bad guy.
Black “characters”, if you can call them as such, are not even fleshed out: beside the historic servants-concierge-style roles, Black characters are now reduced to hysterically tall dudes (usually Sudanese), as in the 1988 Egyptian play Alabanda; or hip and cool US-inspired rappers. Seldom does a Black character, even in blackface, have a role that lasts more than a few minutes.
Change in arthouse cinema? One bright spot in this reprehensible chapter of modern Arab cultural history is a slow but increasing public awareness of racism.
El Masry was forced to make a public apology amid a social media outcry and the show was suspended by the Higher Council of Media. There were also no instances of Blackfacing or racial mockery of Africans during this year’s Ramadan TV season.
Capernaum Rahil, as played by Eritrean refugee Yordanos Shiferaw, in the Oscar-nominated drama Capernaum (Mooz Films) And in wider society, incidents of bullying and abuse of Africans across the region have resulted in the arrests of their preparators. Tunisia, for example, set a regional precedent in 2018 by criminalising racism.
There are notable attempts at Black characterisation, such as Rahil in Nadine Labaki’s 2018 Oscar-nominated drama Capernaum (2018), an illegal immigrant worker, as played by Eritrean refugee Yordanos Shiferaw.
The recent rise of Sudanese cinema is encouraging, including Marwa Zein’s Khartoum Offside (Oufsaiyed Elkhortoum), Amjad Abu Alala’s You’ll Die At Twenty and Suhaib Gasmelbari’s Talking About Trees, winner of the best documentary award at Berlin in 2019. A new generation of African Arabs have the confidence and expertise to finally tell their stories.
But such gains are limited. The role of Rahil failed to deviate from the often-arthouse perception of Africans as the long-suffering exotic stranger. The Sudanese wave, while artistically strong, is confined to the niche, limited art-house circuit (it’s also worth noting that too many serious-minded and independent MENA films fail to integrate Africans in their stories).
" Sudanese drama You’ll Die At Twenty has won prizes at international film festivals (Andolfi/Pyramide International) For a tangible shift in perceptions and attitudes to occur, African film-making needs to be integrated into the mainstream, with more Black agency in front and behind the camera.
For nearly a century, Africans have been Arab cinema’s disposable extras, be they invisible, blackface objects of ridicule, primitive shamans or exotic American rappers.
No representation means no acknowledgment of existence. Meanwhile, the Egyptian government continues to confiscate the last of the little remaining land of the country’s Nubians who are still demanding the right of return.
The role of slavery In 2006, one year after the Mustafa Mahmoud incident, I chaired a public film discussion. The subject of discrimination against Egypt’s Sudanese community arose and I couldn’t help but mention the massacre as an example of racism.
The discourse did not go well: half of the audience said that the “lazy” Sudanese had it “coming to them” for “polluting” public property, and also that the government did not have the economic means to support them. The other half claimed that the number of deaths was lower than reported. Everyone there denied that the Sudanese suffered from any form of discrimination in Egypt.
And this, for me, surmises the issue at the heart of the Arab world’s anti-Black racism: self-righteousness. In Egypt and elsewhere, we fail to confront our hatred and bigotry, our ignorance and condescension.
The persistence of Black marginalisation in Arab entertainment is a byproduct of governments’ reluctance to acknowledge the discriminatory measures that have been adopted against Africans for centuries.
The 1866 engraving Slavers Revenging Their Losses shows men, women, and children, led by Arab slavers (creative commons) The history of African slavery in the Middle East and North Africa is less well known than that perpetuated by Europe and the United States, but it has a longer history, dating as far back as the 8th century. Some writers estimate that 17m East Africans were enslaved and taken to the Gulf as well as what are now modern-day Morocco and Egypt
The trade was still thriving during the 19th century. In Oman, slavery was only abolished in 1970; it was only criminalised in Mauritania and Western Sahara in 2007 and 2010 respectively.
Endemic racism was the foundation of the trade, which used human life as mere economic chattel. By indulging in blackface, the Arab entertainment industry perpetuates such prejudices.
We may cast a critical eye on America for its centuries-long systemic racism - but we also need to start looking at the mess in our own backyard first of all.
The views expressed in this opinion article belong to the author and do not necessarily reflect the editorial policy of Middle East Eye.
Joseph Fahim is an Egyptian film critic and programmer. He is the Arab delegate of the Karlovy Vary Film Festival, a former member of Berlin Critics' Week and the ex director of programming of the Cairo International Film Festival. He co-authored various books on Arab cinema and has contributed to numerous outlets in the Middle East, including Middle East Institute, Al Monitor, Al Jazeera, Egypt Independent and The National (UAE), along with international film publications such as Verite. To date, his writings have been published in five different languages.
This article is available in French on Middle East Eye French edition.
Middle East Eye delivers independent and unrivalled coverage and analysis of the Middle East, North Africa and beyond. To learn more about republishing this content and the associated fees, please fill out this form. More about MEE can be found here.
US Protests 'Blackface' Arab stars spark backlash over tasteless solidarity with US protests
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Racism Black Muslim activist calls on community to do more against racism
And? I'm not getting what you are saying.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
who is more likely to have an ancestor who lived in ancient Egypt?
I don't know, you can't tell by looking and there is not much known about either of their backgrounds
Maybe a DNA test could resolve the issue.
Posted by Tehutimes (Member # 21712) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Racism in the Middle East: The Arab films and TV that promote hatred Joseph Fahim argues that Black representation is negligible at best in Middle East mainstream culture, from movies to social media
Throughout its history, Arab entertainment has marginalised and lampooned Africans (screengrabs) By Joseph Fahim Published date: 25 June 2020 10:07 UTC | Last update: 2 years 5 months
In September 2005, nearly 2,500 Black Sudanese asylum seekers in Egypt began protesting at their destitute conditions. Men, women and children started to camp at the park in Cairo’s Mustafa Mahmoud Square, part of the middle-class neighbourhood of Mohandessin.
Marginalised by the authorities, their demands were simple: give them refugee rights; or let them be resettled in a different country. They were ignored, so refused to leave the space.
Bullet in the Heart film An anonymous Nubian extra plays the role of a bar tender in A Bullet in the Heart (Rosasa fi al-kalb) from 1944 (screengrab) On 30 December, the police violently waded in to clear the square. By the end of the raid, according to official reports, at least 20 unarmed Sudanese citizens had been murdered, including women and children. Other reports put the number at three times that or even higher. The massacre was largely overlooked by the Egyptian media and the public and quickly forgotten.
One week later, I was walking down a street in the affluent Cairo neighbourhood of Hadayek El Qubba, which housed a school for Sudanese refugees. Several teenagers were leaving at the end of the day. Then, a group of young Egyptians ganged up on them, before singling out one kid who was smaller than the rest. They separated him from the rest of the group and started circling him as they embarked on a tirade of racist mockery.
There was one word that the Egyptian hooligans kept calling him: “Othmana”, a feminine derivative of “Othman” and a name used in a racist context for several decades thanks to Egyptian cinema.
How racist caricatures are born These incidents came to mind in the wake of the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the subsequent protests and condemnation worldwide, including across the Middle East and North Africa.
How groups in society perceive each other is framed by different factors, including upbringing and learned experience. Another is the influence of media and entertainment. There was an irony, then, in how some sections of Egyptian society tried to show solidarity, especially online, with Black Americans and the #BlackLivesMatter movement.
" June 2020: Black youths in Tunis protest against the death of George Floyd (AFP) That’s because no other ethnicity has been belittled and ridiculed in Arab entertainment, which is dominated by the Egyptian industry as the region’s most populous nation, as much as Africans, from Arab-language films of the 1930s to Hollywood blockbusters in the present day.
Before Sudanese refugees arrived in Egypt after the country’s civil wars, Egypt’s Black population was chiefly comprised of Nubians from northern Sudan and southern Egypt, who had long resided on the banks of the upper Nile. They were estimated to constitute around three percent of the country’s population by 2015.
From the early days of Egyptian cinema during the 1930s, Nubians were cast in subordinate roles, such as servants or concierges, who were either invisible or else there to be mocked at; meek, resourceless people, with little intelligence, little talent, little agency.
As Viola Shafik wrote in Arab Cinema: History & Cultural Identity in 1998: “The two Nubian languages have not been used in a single film. Even visually the Nubian minority has been misrepresented.” For decades, any Black male character was always known as “Othman,” a cast extra whose sole function was to cheer on the lighter-skinned protagonists.
"El-Kassar positioned this black character within the Egyptian national family,” writes Alon Tam, at the University of Pennsylvania, “even pitching him as an all-Egyptian figure. At the same time, he undermined this position by marking Othman's skin colour and accent as inferior, and by associating him with other ‘foreign’-Egyptians.”
A rare exception was the widely popular character of Othman Abdel-Basset, the brainchild of comedian Ali El-Kassar (1887-1957), from 1935 until 1944. El-Kassar himself was not Nubian: born in Cairo, he mingled with the city’s Nubian community before he invented a racial caricature, complete with cracked accent, coy body language and reserved demeanour.
Othman Abdel-Basset became the most well-known Black character in Egyptian pop culture, giving Nubians a spectrum of emotions rare to the Arab screen. It was one of the very few - if only – instances of a Nubian character taking centre stage in mainstream Egyptian film.
To El-Kassar’s credit, he strived to create a working-class hero, ascribing him jobs - such as pie-seller or government employee - that differed from the usual servant-concierge ghetto. And there’s undeniably great humanity and playfulness in the character.
But Abdel-Basset still suffered from the cliches that have addled Black characterisation since, shaping how many Egyptians have perceived Africans for decades to come.
By the 1960s, when Nubians had been displaced in the wake of dam construction, first under the British protectorate and then the Egyptian government, Black characters were still relegated to the periphery of the screen. Blatant racist mockery had intensified and become the norm.
Even to be perceived as dark-skinned could stall a career. Ahmed Zaki (1949-2005) became one of the most popular stars of his generation - but in his early days, producers were reluctant to cast him, most notably in the classic adaptation of El Karnak (1975), despite being backed by director Ali Badrakhan. The role eventually went to the lighter-skinned Nour El-Sherif.
Nour El-Sherif (left) replaced the darker-skinned Ahmed Zaki in the 1975 film El Karnak (screengrab) The examples continue into the 21st century. In the 2001 feature Africano, directed by Amr Arafa and starring Ahmed El-Sakka and Mona Zaki, one character shouts: "Is there a power cut in there or something?" as a group of Africans enter a nightclub.
“Your night is as black as your face,” the titular protagonist of Muhammad al-Najjar’s 2005 comedy, Ali Spicy, tells an escort hired by his uncle. “If you turn off the lights, nobody would see her.”
According to a study by the Border Center for Support and Consulting, 51 Egyptian films between 2007 and 2016 featured stereotypical depictions of Africans.
Racism in the digital age Casual racism is not just restricted to cinema: with the explosion of TV and then digital platforms, so it has also spread to smaller screens.
In the 2018 comedy Azmi We Ashgan, Africans are depicted as uncivilised servants who practice sorcery (there’s also a very liberal use of the n-word).
In 2019, the prank show Shaklabaz (above), depicted TV comedian Shaimaa Seif wearing blackface to play an uncouth Sudanese woman on a congested minibus
And Egyptian actor Maged El Masry told an anecdote during a talk show about being set up with a group of African girls whom he instantly kicked out of his car.
But such racism is not restricted to Egypt.
In Tunisia and Morocco, it's rare that you will see Black TV anchors or presenters: not only does this fail to reflect the countries' ethnic composition, it also stops younger Africans from trying to enter the profession. There is also Nasser al-Qasabi, playing the primitive simpleton in the Saudi Arabian sitcom No Big Deal (Tash ma tash). The Kuwaiti series The Block of Jokes (Block Ghashmara) also had one episode where its two leads donned blackface, playing a pair of gregarious, uncivilised desert dwellers.
Indeed, it is blackface that is the most glaring example of racism in MENA entertainment. One might expect the younger generation in MENA to reject such archaisms, as practised by legendary action star Farid Shawky in the period drama Antara Ibn Shaddad (1961).
Two examples of blackface in pop videos by Egyptian singer Boshra (left) and the Lebanese star Myriam Fares (screengrabs). Not so: it has simply been repurposed for the 21st century. In the last few years, blackface has surfaced in the music videos of Egyptian singer Boshra and the Lebanese star Myriam Fares. Online, there was a resurgence in recent weeks as Blackfacing Arab actors and singers took to social media and mistook fetishisation and cultural appropriation for solidarity: culprits included Tania Saleh, Moroccan actor Mariam Hussein, and Algerian actor and singer Souhila Ben Lachhab.
In January 2020, Black Algerian Khadija Ben Hamou was subjected to racist abuse online when she was crowned Miss Algeria. One commentator wrote that he initially thought “she was a man” and that her face “is hideous".
In 2020, in Arab entertainment, Blackness is still presented as something that is ugly and dangerous, or else hip, cool and to be crassly appropriated. In this respect, parallels can be drawn with the West’s attitude towards the Middle East, which historically encompasses both orientalism and reductivity, such as the Hollywood terrorist bad guy.
Black “characters”, if you can call them as such, are not even fleshed out: beside the historic servants-concierge-style roles, Black characters are now reduced to hysterically tall dudes (usually Sudanese), as in the 1988 Egyptian play Alabanda; or hip and cool US-inspired rappers. Seldom does a Black character, even in blackface, have a role that lasts more than a few minutes.
Change in arthouse cinema? One bright spot in this reprehensible chapter of modern Arab cultural history is a slow but increasing public awareness of racism.
El Masry was forced to make a public apology amid a social media outcry and the show was suspended by the Higher Council of Media. There were also no instances of Blackfacing or racial mockery of Africans during this year’s Ramadan TV season.
Capernaum Rahil, as played by Eritrean refugee Yordanos Shiferaw, in the Oscar-nominated drama Capernaum (Mooz Films) And in wider society, incidents of bullying and abuse of Africans across the region have resulted in the arrests of their preparators. Tunisia, for example, set a regional precedent in 2018 by criminalising racism.
There are notable attempts at Black characterisation, such as Rahil in Nadine Labaki’s 2018 Oscar-nominated drama Capernaum (2018), an illegal immigrant worker, as played by Eritrean refugee Yordanos Shiferaw.
The recent rise of Sudanese cinema is encouraging, including Marwa Zein’s Khartoum Offside (Oufsaiyed Elkhortoum), Amjad Abu Alala’s You’ll Die At Twenty and Suhaib Gasmelbari’s Talking About Trees, winner of the best documentary award at Berlin in 2019. A new generation of African Arabs have the confidence and expertise to finally tell their stories.
But such gains are limited. The role of Rahil failed to deviate from the often-arthouse perception of Africans as the long-suffering exotic stranger. The Sudanese wave, while artistically strong, is confined to the niche, limited art-house circuit (it’s also worth noting that too many serious-minded and independent MENA films fail to integrate Africans in their stories).
" Sudanese drama You’ll Die At Twenty has won prizes at international film festivals (Andolfi/Pyramide International) For a tangible shift in perceptions and attitudes to occur, African film-making needs to be integrated into the mainstream, with more Black agency in front and behind the camera.
For nearly a century, Africans have been Arab cinema’s disposable extras, be they invisible, blackface objects of ridicule, primitive shamans or exotic American rappers.
No representation means no acknowledgment of existence. Meanwhile, the Egyptian government continues to confiscate the last of the little remaining land of the country’s Nubians who are still demanding the right of return.
The role of slavery In 2006, one year after the Mustafa Mahmoud incident, I chaired a public film discussion. The subject of discrimination against Egypt’s Sudanese community arose and I couldn’t help but mention the massacre as an example of racism.
The discourse did not go well: half of the audience said that the “lazy” Sudanese had it “coming to them” for “polluting” public property, and also that the government did not have the economic means to support them. The other half claimed that the number of deaths was lower than reported. Everyone there denied that the Sudanese suffered from any form of discrimination in Egypt.
And this, for me, surmises the issue at the heart of the Arab world’s anti-Black racism: self-righteousness. In Egypt and elsewhere, we fail to confront our hatred and bigotry, our ignorance and condescension.
The persistence of Black marginalisation in Arab entertainment is a byproduct of governments’ reluctance to acknowledge the discriminatory measures that have been adopted against Africans for centuries.
The 1866 engraving Slavers Revenging Their Losses shows men, women, and children, led by Arab slavers (creative commons) The history of African slavery in the Middle East and North Africa is less well known than that perpetuated by Europe and the United States, but it has a longer history, dating as far back as the 8th century. Some writers estimate that 17m East Africans were enslaved and taken to the Gulf as well as what are now modern-day Morocco and Egypt
The trade was still thriving during the 19th century. In Oman, slavery was only abolished in 1970; it was only criminalised in Mauritania and Western Sahara in 2007 and 2010 respectively.
Endemic racism was the foundation of the trade, which used human life as mere economic chattel. By indulging in blackface, the Arab entertainment industry perpetuates such prejudices.
We may cast a critical eye on America for its centuries-long systemic racism - but we also need to start looking at the mess in our own backyard first of all.
The views expressed in this opinion article belong to the author and do not necessarily reflect the editorial policy of Middle East Eye.
Joseph Fahim is an Egyptian film critic and programmer. He is the Arab delegate of the Karlovy Vary Film Festival, a former member of Berlin Critics' Week and the ex director of programming of the Cairo International Film Festival. He co-authored various books on Arab cinema and has contributed to numerous outlets in the Middle East, including Middle East Institute, Al Monitor, Al Jazeera, Egypt Independent and The National (UAE), along with international film publications such as Verite. To date, his writings have been published in five different languages.
This article is available in French on Middle East Eye French edition.
Middle East Eye delivers independent and unrivalled coverage and analysis of the Middle East, North Africa and beyond. To learn more about republishing this content and the associated fees, please fill out this form. More about MEE can be found here.
US Protests 'Blackface' Arab stars spark backlash over tasteless solidarity with US protests
Racism Arabs for Black Lives urges community to do its part against racism
Racism Black Muslim activist calls on community to do more against racism
I guess you've seen Chinese, Korean, Japanese, & Dutch blatant blackface I tv shows, movies, & Christmas celebrations. A few years ago Spaniards mocked Lewis Hamilton the mixed ethnicities UK race car driver by wearing Afro wigs with blackface during the the race.Arabs don't have a monopoly on blackface neurosis/psychosis syndrome.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Speaking of Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, they too sometimes get mocked in European films, commercials and as stereotyped images on products like candy.
China stereotype on candy
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
A somewhat better reflexion was in the Marvel series Moon Knight, pertaining the overall population. Well, at least they had Saffron Hocking and Layla Abdallah El-Faouly as a main character.
But still… they aren't trying hard enough to give us the images closer to what the ancient KMTians left behind. Which would reflect the people still living in the region of the Nile Delta region.
Neither of them: Kevin Hearth or Youssef Othman, show an accurate reflexion of these ancient people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
who is more likely to have an ancestor who lived in ancient Egypt?
I don't know, you can't tell by looking and there is not much known about either of their backgrounds
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Racism in the Middle East: The Arab films and TV that promote hatred Joseph Fahim argues that Black representation is negligible at best in Middle East mainstream culture, from movies to social media
[…]
Throughout its history, Arab entertainment has marginalised and lampooned Africans (screengrabs) By Joseph Fahim Published date: 25 June 2020 10:07 UTC | Last update: 2 years 5 months
In September 2005, nearly 2,500 Black Sudanese asylum seekers in Egypt began protesting at their destitute conditions. Men, women and children started to camp at the park in Cairo’s Mustafa Mahmoud Square, part of the middle-class neighbourhood of Mohandessin.
Racism Arabs for Black Lives urges community to do its part against racism
Racism Black Muslim activist calls on community to do more against racism
About ancient Egypt in films, in The Mummy Returns the Scorpion King is portraid by Dwayne Johnson (The Rock), and his soldiers also look not too white. In a later movie called The Scorpion King they for some reason changed the ethnicity of King Scorpion and made him an Akkadian mercenary instead.
King scorpion and his soldiers in The Mummy Returns
I only find one Egyptian film in the list, the earlier mentioned The Emigrant (1994)
Film poster from a French animated film (La Reine Soleil The Sun Queen) based on a novel by French egyptologist and author Christian Jacq.
It can be seen here Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Very funny and also very telling how there were no issues when this movie came out...
But they want to "cancel" Kevin Hart, even though his depictions are actually accurate.
Would have to agree in part- re the hypocrisy. If the leading actors look "too black" various Egyptian whiners are up in arms, as if black people somehow were never in or don't "belong" to Egypt, even as the hypocrites can see painting after painting of dark-skinned indigenous people in their own books and on their own monuments or tomb walls. They did the same hissy fit back in the 1980s when Lou Gosset portrayed Anwar Sadat. Gossett had no "afrocentric" agenda - he was a popular, bankable American actor who just happened to bear some resemblance to Sadat, but no! The sky was falling! Some of these hypocrites are among those still insisting that the Egyptian ass-kicking in the 1973 War was because "American pilots" wuz "secretly" flying for the Israelis and other such BS..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Amenhotep III, 18th dynasty The 18th dynasty spanned the period from 1549/1550 to 1292 BC.
Peintures provenant du tombeau du roi dans la Vallée de l'Ouest, rive gauche de Louxor enduit peint H. : 25,50 cm. ; L. : 25 cm.
the upper one is a re-paint of the lower
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: When Egyptians make their own films about ancient Egypt the result can be a film like The Emigrant which is discussed in this thread
FYI. Egypt is run by the Afrangi (foreign descent) elite of not only Arab but Turkish, Circassian, Mamluk etc. ancestry. Hence, the overwhelming majority of Egyptians on film or TV are NOT Baladi (indigenous) and thus reflect as much reality on the Baladi people as Bollywood movies in India reflect common (dark or black) Indians.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
^^ This film actually got problems, but not because of "racial" issues but because of religious causes since it showed biblical figures, which is not allowed in Islam. The director had to change the names of some of the films protagonists and he also removed the supernatural and miraculous elements.
So far as I found this is one of very few Egyptian movies about ancient Egypt (if not the only one?).
Even if it is no exact reconstruction of ancient Egyptian demography it is still interesting to see how ancient Egypt is depicted in Egypt itself and not by Americans, Italians, Englishmen, Frenchmen, Japanese and others.
Yas Island is a man-made island once part of mainland Abu Dhabi (capital of UAE) and, as part of the idea behind the Formula 1 proposal, a strip of land was dredged – what is now the canal.
The area is intended – and already is – as a multi-purpose entertainment, leisure, and retail project, all of which has been built by ALDAR.
The Grand Prix circuit opened in 2009, with the first Formula 1 race taking place the same year. Since then, the attractions and facilities have kept on coming.
Kevin Hart is hiring Yas Island’s next ambassador, to be paid $100,000
Kevin Hart's home in Yas Island, Abu Dhabi
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
If one goes strictly after skin color the people in the French animated film La Reine Soleil (The Sun Queen) do not stray very far from the color of many ancient Egyptian artworks, i e they are rather brown. I do not know if it avoke some protests in Egypt when it was shown in Cairo in 2007. It seems many appreciated it.
quote: A prestigious premiere took place in Cairo on 13 March with a highly majestic setting: the Pyramids of Giza. More than 1,200 viewers applauded the film.
^ That French animated movie was discussed in this forum when it first came out and I recall that the producers and art directors based their designs on actual ancient artwork from the Amarna period.
Does that make the (white) French makers of the film 'Afrocentric'? Better yet, were the ancient Egyptian artists from Amarna also 'Afrocentric' for depicting their rulers they way they did??
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
^ ^ Seems that the French film also got some criticism, but not for being Afrocentric but for some historical mistakes. But it was no documentary, more a fantasy so one can maybe not expect total realism. I have not read Christian Jacqs book so I do not know how realistic it is.
Seems that Egyptians reacted harder on Kevin Hart and Black Sands maybe because they are African Americans. Or maybe the zeitgeist has changed somewhat in 15 years.
Christian Jacq´s book
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Seems that the French are not afraid of making animated films set in Africa with dark skin protagonists. And it also seems that those films are successful. At least La Reine Soleil and Kirikou seems to have been well received.
Has anyone known Ethiopians to get miffed at Rastafarian interest in their country? Ethiopia isn't where most of the ancestors of Black Jamaicans came from. However, while there undeniably are Horn Africans who look down on their "True Negro" brethren, I've yet to see a large number of Ethiopians complain about Jamaican Rastafarians "appropriating" their national and cultural heritage. Why is that?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Amenhotep III, 18th dynasty The 18th dynasty spanned the period from 1549/1550 to 1292 BC.
Peintures provenant du tombeau du roi dans la Vallée de l'Ouest, rive gauche de Louxor enduit peint H. : 25,50 cm. ; L. : 25 cm.
why is it when it comes to egypt people have a hard time claiming them as Black. Look at that man he is reddish brown egypt is in control of people who are not his color.
African Americans have a reddish brown skin tone that is Rich skinned brown. That is not what Arabs have nor the countries of nort African.
Its safe to say Ancient Egypt is Black African stop being stubborn and stupid about color its clear they are not white and they do not have a light brown color to there name. Ancient Egypt is Black African
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah:
why is it when it comes to egypt people have a hard time claiming them as Black. Look at that man he is reddish brown egypt is in control of people who are not his color.
African Americans have a reddish brown skin tone that is Rich skinned brown. That is not what Arabs have nor the countries of nort African.
Its safe to say Ancient Egypt is Black African stop being stubborn and stupid about color its clear they are not white and they do not have a light brown color to there name. Ancient Egypt is Black African
There are people with a dark brown reddish undertone in North Africa, its just that they don't get as much "shine". All if not most attention goes to Arabic looking types in Northeast Africa.
This is what the complexion and facial trait is of the average Egyptian woman (also know as caramel complexioned).
why is it when it comes to egypt people have a hard time claiming them as Black. Look at that man he is reddish brown egypt is in control of people who are not his color.
African Americans have a reddish brown skin tone that is Rich skinned brown. That is not what Arabs have nor the countries of nort African.
Its safe to say Ancient Egypt is Black African stop being stubborn and stupid about color its clear they are not white and they do not have a light brown color to there name. Ancient Egypt is Black African
Black Sands doesn't use the reddish brown color
this color is not common in America although a chocolate brown is used some of the Egyptian art also
Manuel Godoy, CEO of Black Sands interviews his partner and co-founder Teunis de Raat, Head of Studio
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Black Sands doesn't use the reddish brown color
this color is not common in America although a chocolate brown is used some of the Egyptian art also
The caramel complexioned would be considered this reddish brown skin tone.
quote:"What is caramel skin tone? Caramel complexion is a rich shade that is described as warm, golden, and buttery, or cinnamon brown. It is the mid-point of dark and light skin tones. The caramel complexion is rich in a range of greenish-yellow, golden and red undertones"
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: The caramel complexioned would be considered this reddish brown skin tone.
quote:"What is caramel skin tone? Caramel complexion is a rich shade that is described as warm, golden, and buttery, or cinnamon brown. It is the mid-point of dark and light skin tones. The caramel complexion is rich in a range of greenish-yellow, golden and red undertones"
these are the examples of caramel skin from your link above
Tomb of Nakht, an Egyptian official, scribe and astronomer of Amun, probably during the reign of Thutmose IV 18th dynasty
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Originally posted by Ish Geber: The caramel complexioned would be considered this reddish brown skin tone.
quote:"What is caramel skin tone? Caramel complexion is a rich shade that is described as warm, golden, and buttery, or cinnamon brown. It is the mid-point of dark and light skin tones. The caramel complexion is rich in a range of greenish-yellow, golden and red undertones"
Trotter and Gleser's (Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 10 (1952) 469–514; Trotter and Gleser: Am J Phys Anthropol 16 (1958) 79–123) long bone formulae for US Blacks or derivations thereof (Robins and Shute: Hum Evol 1 (1986) 313–324) have been previously used to estimate the stature of ancient Egyptians. However, limb length to stature proportions differ between human populations; consequently, the most accurate mathematical stature estimates will be obtained when the population being examined is as similar as possible in proportions to the population used to create the equations. The purpose of this study was to create new stature regression formulae based on direct reconstructions of stature in ancient Egyptians and assess their accuracy in comparison to other stature estimation methods. We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites. Living stature estimates were derived using a revised Fully anatomical method (Raxter et al.: Am J Phys Anthropol 130 (2006) 374–384). Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical. The newly generated Egyptian-based stature regression formulae have standard errors of estimate of 1.9–4.2 cm. All mean directional differences are less than 0.4% compared to anatomically estimated stature, while results using previous formulae are more variable, with mean directional biases varying between 0.2% and 1.1%, tibial and radial estimates being the most biased. There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains.
(Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, Am J Phys Anthropol, 2008, Stature estimation;anatomical method;regression formulae; Egyptians)
I hadn't followed up on Kevin Hart's show planned for Cairo, the thread started in late December 2022 but I just checked and
(about feb 20, 2023)
"R Productions
It is with a heavy heart that we share with you, due to local logistical issues, the cancellation of our Kevin Hart event scheduled for February 21st, in Cairo. You have always shown us continuous support in all our events and for that we’re grateful. In the meantime, we are asking for your patience as we work with the TicketsMarché team to make sure that all the refunds are met in the shortest time possible.
It is our dream to create the best experiences for all of our clients and ensure that Egypt is placed on the international map at the highest possible standards. We will continue to work towards that dream every day.
Again, thank you for your continuous support and understanding.”
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
^^^ note, despite the title, the video was first posted in 2010
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
If he said this he was not just saying he considers ancient Egyptians to be black he was saying that they are the ancestors of African Americans
There are indeed some Black Americans who make these false claims.
The ancient Egypts can be described as a group of Black people and that is another debate that Eurocentrism has tried to corrupt.
If we look where this started we can understand how we ended up in this cycle. Black academics in Americans responded to the white academic claims of owning ancient Egypt as a white caucasian civilization. And things like this only helped to muddy the waters even more: "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods".
quote: “Some groups (using cemeteries E-01-2, E-03-1, E-03-2, and E-09-4) show some affiliation with sub-Saharan Africans, readable in the pottery assemblage and other grave goods, as well as some morphological features
quote:"Many of the sites reveal evidence of important interactions between Nilotic and Saharan groups during the formative phases of the Egyptian Predynastic Period (e.g. Wadi el-Hôl, Rayayna, Nuq’ Menih, Kurkur Oasis). Other sites preserve important information regarding the use of the desert routes during the Protodynastic and Pharaonic Periods, particularly during periods of political and military turmoil in the Nile Valley (e.g. Gebel Tjauti, Wadi el-Hôl)."
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
^^^ note, despite the title, the video was first posted in 2010
Had they (the goverment) paid out reparations, a lot to mental health issues could have been avoided.
To be honest, when I was in Egypt people expected my to be from there and to visit family. I have seen looking like Pharrell Williams, Evander Holyfield etc.
When I looked at the murals and statues I saw these local Egyptians in them. These local people did identify as Black up to the point it started to annoy some whites who traveled along during that trip.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
yes, common look may not be common ancestry
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
Seems some people are so fixated with Egypt while not talking so much about West Africa and Central Africa where most of the ancestors of todays African Americans came from. Seems it is more exciting to talk about ancient Egypt since it is a more "spectacular" and well known civilisation.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
ALBAWABA - for the first time ever, Kevin Hart will be adding a stop in Cairo for his upcoming tour ''Reality Check'' tour.
The comedian and actor will be performing at Cairo Stadium hall 1 on Feb. 21, 2023.
Hart took to his Twitter account to announce his itinerary to his fans: ''So excited to announce I’ll be coming to Cairo, Egypt in 2023 for the first time ever! Tickets go on sale Monday, Dec. 12 at 12 pm!''
But Egyptians don't seem too pleased about the event, as social media users started a hashtag demanding Hart's event to be canceled.
The hashtag started after the star's previous statements about the origins of the king of ancient Egypt, which some described as a "racist statement" to Egyptian history.
At the time, Hart said: ''We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
lioness, I'm not sure if she is an employee of Al-Dustour or just recommending people write there (?) but her twitter description her says in Arabic: "Write a weekly critical article in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Dustour "
------
wiki: Al-Dostor (also Al-Dostour and Al-Dustour) (Arabic: الدستور, lit. 'The Constitution', Egyptian Arabic: [eldosˈtuːr, edːosˈtuːr]), is an independent Daily Egyptian opposition newspaper. Al Dustour was first published in December 1995[2][3] and is published weekly in Arabic. At the time of Mubarak's departure (February 2011), Al-Dostour was the fifth largest daily newspaper in Egypt, with a daily edition selling 45,000 and weekly edition selling 85,000 copies.
_______________________________
However the tweet and the 42 comments (some by the original poster) the alleged Kevin hart quote is not mentioned
I searched on twitter also generally for that quote, it has a unique phrase in it "cemented by education in America." I don't see any history of that phrase on the internet or twitter prior to the Al Bawaba article >
(allegedly Kevin Hart):
“We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
^^ I can't imagine Kevin Hart phrasing the whole statement like this even if he might agree with it. It doesn't sound like the way he would word it to me.
this is the author of the Al Bawaba article where as far as I know the quote first appeared but the article does not give a source for it. The question is where did she get it from?
quote: Al Bawaba Managing Editor - Entertainment Alexandra Abumuhor Alex Abumuhor is a Design student at the German Jordanian University who is a celebrity fanatic wholly and fully. She can think of no better job than to interview celebs, making sure everyone is up to date with everything that's happening. She loves supporting local businesses, sheltering animals and making people happy.
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:
Hart had allegedly said in an interview: “We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
It is not clear, however, when and where Hart made these comments.
If he said this he was not just saying he considers ancient Egyptians to be black he was saying that they are the ancestors of African Americans
There are indeed some Black Americans who make these false claims.
The ancient Egypts can be described as a group of Black people and that is another debate that Eurocentrism has tried to corrupt.
If we look where this started we can understand how we ended up in this cycle. Black academics in Americans responded to the white academic claims of owning ancient Egypt as a white caucasian civilization. And things like this only helped to muddy the waters even more: "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods".
I think you could make the argument that the term “Ancestors” in certain contexts is more analogous to Forebears/Forefathers than it is to literal ancestors. I’d maybe even argue it kinda has to work like this for any sense of ethnic (and by extension racial) identity to really work; at least in a non-endogamous society. Otherwise we’re all just groups of different families/lineages who live in the same area and speak the same language. Obviously that’s enough for the social and linguistic aspects of ethnicity, but doesn’t satisfy the relatedness aspect of it; because if your ancestors aren’t my ancestors then we aren’t really “related”. Our relationship would be strictly social or geographical with this interpretation.
Now, to me the most obvious caveat with this logic is that, in any given region members of an ethnic group will have ancestors in common, so this never really works in the real world; but given the fact that this is true for our entire species, i don’t think this really invalidates the reasoning. “Relatedness” in many respects is measurable, but hard boundaries will always be arbitrary, at least in regards to human ethno-cultural groupings.
AfrAm to AE is certainly near the extreme at the extreme end of the spectrum but still - if AE’s are black, then “they” would necessarily have to be counted among the ancestors, i.e. forebears, of all [modern] black people. Otherwise, what’s the point of propping up “Blackness” as a meaningful concept at all. We know that given the diversity of “Black” African peoples, the idea that we’re all one group is ridiculous in the first place.
{As an side, i know you’re probably referring to people who would try to claim direct descendance from Egypt, with nothing else in between. I genuinely do not believe most people hold that position. Just as I don’t believe something like “We are the original people” means that folks literally think that they themselves are 300,000 or whatever years old, and are actually the first humans in existence}
Case in point, if an AfrAm were to say that Harriet Tubman was their ancestor, most people probably wouldn’t bat an eye. Problem is, as far as i know, she didn’t have any [biological] children. So by virtue of the fact that she doesn’t have any direct descendants, it’s infinitely more likely that an AfrAm has an AE ancestor than it is that Harriet their ancestor, in a literal sense. That AfrAm and Harriet may have a common ancestor before either of them has an AE ancestor, but she cannot be that AfrAm’s ancestor.
To your last point: For my money, a Sengalese man is the most influential (or at the very least most recognizable) African-centered Egyptologist to date. AfrAms might be the most visible, and i’d probably even give you that AfrAms are the main culprits, bur “Black academics in America” aren’t the only ones who play/played a part in this.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: AfrAm to AE is certainly near the extreme at the extreme end of the spectrum but still - if AE’s are black, then “they” would necessarily have to be counted among the ancestors, i.e. forebears, of all [modern] black people. Otherwise, what’s the point of propping up “Blackness” as a meaningful concept at all.
FWIW, if we are to count all the darker-skinned people in Upper Egypt today as "Black people", then they would certainly qualify as a Black people who are descended from the ancient Egyptians.
Also, I doubt the people who get upset about African-Americans claiming AE as among the "ancestors" would feel the same if those same African-Americans were talking about, say, the Zulu or Maasai, even though I doubt a significant chunk of African-American ancestry comes from either of those ethnic groups. It seems that a perception that AE weren't "Black" plays a big role in that.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Skin color would tell you nothing about whether or not a person living in Egypt today did or didn't have ancestors who go back to dynastic Egypt or earlier
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Egypt is still a hot place and it's yearly UV index goes as low as 3 and piques to 12 in the summer months,so I doubt very light skinned Egyptians are the result from reduced environmental pressure.
Go to the bottom of the page to see the yearly UV index.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Also, I doubt the people who get upset about African-Americans claiming AE as among the "ancestors" would feel the same if those same African-Americans were talking about, say, the Zulu or Maasai, even though I doubt a significant chunk of African-American ancestry comes from either of those ethnic groups. It seems that a perception that AE weren't "Black" plays a big role in that.
My point exactly. It has a lot more to do with perceived “relatedness” than it does any sort of strict adherence to genealogy.
Now the flip side to that, is certain AfrAms’ (and not just AfrAms either) tendency to over emphasize/exaggerate relatedness to AE’s, in ways that erase/ignore the diversity of African people. Needing AE’s to not just be Black but also Black in the way we are (Phenotypically, Culturally, etc), or needing to be secretly directly descended from the AE’s, to point of claiming to be more Egyptian than actual Egyptians (which I think was probably was probably Ish’s overarching point). This type of thinking is nonsensical and, more importantly, needlessly divisive and exclusionary. Again, no point in propping up “Blackness” if you’re not willing to acknowledge the diversity of Black people. It’s the only way it can work.
On a final note, a lot of shit weirdly gets placed on the shoulders of African-Americans that we really didn’t cause (or that’s in no way unique to us). I think it’s a direct result of our high visibility relative to other Black ethnicities/nationalities. Can’t complain too much, visibility comes with pros and cons, but it leads people to some ridiculous conclusions. I was reading a thread on what was apparently a Somali-centric forum (i got linked there from a post here), and the topic of “Nubian” identity came up. They were discussing how Ancient Nubians are often associated with South Sudanese/Nilotic-type peoples, despite that only being one type of Nubian. Eventually, a poster chimed to say that it was African-Americans who caused this phenomenon. Not the Egyptologists who were/are deadset on proving a clear cut racial divide between Egyptians and “Negroid” or “Sub-Saharan” (lmao) Nubians. Not certain depictions by the Egyptians themselves that have long been highlighted to try and show how they supposedly saw all of their southern neighbors. Nope, it was them damn Afro-Americans trying to claim everything and make everyone look like them. Can’t make this shit up lmao
They didn’t harp on it and the topic wasn’t really about that, so i don’t wanna give the impression that it was a bigger deal than it actually was. I just thought it was funny. So it goes .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: I was reading a thread on what was apparently a Somali-centric forum (i got linked there from a post here), and the topic of “Nubian” identity came up. They were discussing how Ancient Nubians are often associated with South Sudanese/Nilotic-type peoples, despite that only being one type of Nubian. Eventually, a poster chimed to say that it was African-Americans who caused this phenomenon.
A noisy subset of Somalis and other Horn Africans online have this strangely intense animus toward "jareer" Africans (i.e. those with a more West/Central African look). They seem to think that somehow distancing themselves from other "Black" Africans will allow them to curry favor with White supremacists. It's at once disturbing and pathetic.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Suppose you are looking at two modern Egyptians. One is dark skinned the other light. The light skinned one might have a percentage of their ancestry going back to the dynastic Egyptians but the dark one none. OR The dark skinned one might have a percentage of their ancestry going back to the dynastic Egyptians but the light one none. OR both might not have any ancestry going back to the dynastic Egyptians.
There is some validity about questioning the idea African Americans in general have Egyptian ancestors and that the idea is "cultural appropriation"
However people making this argument should not try to make it by using some photo of a modern person they think look like an ancient Egyptian. Since it can't be determined by looks they should leave such "what they really looked like" in their opinion photos out of it
"who looks more similar to" is entirely different from "who is descended from"
But critically I am also seeing seeing some black people on youtube and other social media simplifying this controversy into saying this Kevin Hart quote (possibly fabricated) dispute is over Kevin Hart saying the Egyptians were black. However it's more than that, the claim (of this unsourced supposed quote) is ancestral descendance from the AEs and I don't think any individual can prove that today. However I would say the most likely modern people who could have a percentage of dynastic Egyptian ancestry (it could be small) the best candidates for that would probably be in the Nile Valley region with generational family history and skin color doesn't matter, and you could not tell by looking or pointing to any particular region within this area.
^ people acting like this an afrocentric manifesto
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
If you look at this controversy and prohibit yourself from talking about it by the terms "white" and "black" which have no standard it leads to more clarity
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: I was reading a thread on what was apparently a Somali-centric forum (i got linked there from a post here), and the topic of “Nubian” identity came up. They were discussing how Ancient Nubians are often associated with South Sudanese/Nilotic-type peoples, despite that only being one type of Nubian. Eventually, a poster chimed to say that it was African-Americans who caused this phenomenon.
A noisy subset of Somalis and other Horn Africans online have this strangely intense animus toward "jareer" Africans (i.e. those with a more West/Central African look). They seem to think that somehow distancing themselves from other "Black" Africans will allow them to curry favor with White supremacists. It's at once disturbing and pathetic.
Man the unfortunate truth is that any line that can be used to distinguish people will just as often be used to divide people.
There are plenty of West Africans who don’t want to be associated with African-Americans, and certainly many African-Americans who don’t want to be associated with West Africans, or continental Africans in general. Ultimately works toward all of our detriment but it’s not an easy problem to solve. I mean “Africans” been fighting “Africans” probably long before anybody else was around.
Still frustrating though.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Europe has had a long bloody history of internal wars
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Maybe a bit off-topic, but...
Has anyone known Ethiopians to get miffed at Rastafarian interest in their country? Ethiopia isn't where most of the ancestors of Black Jamaicans came from. However, while there undeniably are Horn Africans who look down on their "True Negro" brethren, I've yet to see a large number of Ethiopians complain about Jamaican Rastafarians "appropriating" their national and cultural heritage. Why is that?
(I missed this on first scan but I’ll comment on it). Might have something to do with Rasta’s revering a certain Ethiopian monarch as a literal divine being. Also the legacy of global Pan-African struggle at that time might inform opinions. In general i think the division between Horners and other Africans can be kind of over-emphasized sometimes (strife and conflict seems to excite the human brain), same as the division between continental Africans and Diasporans. I also get the feeling that anti-“Negro” sentiment may be more common in certain groups of Horners vs others, and as all things it’s case by case basis. Nipsey Hussle was half-AfrAm and Half Eritrean and spoke fondly of his time visiting Eritrea. Though to my eyes he (and his brother) looks like he wouldn’t be out of place among the inhabitants of Eritrea, so that could have something to do with it. Vocal exclusionary voices tend to stand out but it’s not that hard to find solidarity if you look for it.
I think there’s some overlap between people who study history and people who wish to “claim” history that exaggerates social divisions in the types of spaces we tend to interact in. If that makes sense.
@ Lioness
quote:If you look at this controversy and prohibit yourself from talking about it by the terms "white" and "black" which have no standard it leads to more clarity
I really don’t think what you’re trying to imply is the case.
The only quote i’ve seen seems to indicate that he’s not really trying to claim some special or hyper-literal descent from Egypt. He literally acknowledges slave ancestry in the same quote. He didn’t even say anything like “We’re the real Egyptians” or anything like that, that would imply he’s trying to exclude other people from the conversation.
Now it’s true that type of ahistorical, exclusionary sentiment is common amongst Black people who discuss Egypt, but the crux of the issue is Egypt’s ethno-historical place in modern perception.
Again, do you think anyone would have a problem if he said “Remember when we were Zulu Kings” or “Nubian” kings? I know i certainly doubt it. But a Black man wants to claim Egyptian heritage and suddenly we gotta start tracing 3,000 year old genealogies.
I wonder how many AfrAms can actually claim Ashanti royal descent. Not Akan descent, not descent from some nearby related group, but actual verifiable descent from Ashanti nobility. Then i also wonder how many people who care when Black folks mention Egypt would give a damn if Black man said “Remember when we were Ashanti Kings” knowing that lineage is still active today. Again, if i had to guess it wouldn’t be very many. So i really don’t believe the controversy that always surrounds this topic has a whole lot to do with actual lineages.
I’m not even saying i support anything he’s doing, or even care about it at all. This is a whole lot of nothing to me and should’ve known his quote was going to be problematic when he said it. But ain’t no sense acting like we don’t know what the heart of the issue is.
But let me know if I’ve missed something, or misunderstood/misrepresented your position.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum:
@ Lioness
quote:If you look at this controversy and prohibit yourself from talking about it by the terms "white" and "black" which have no standard it leads to more clarity
I really don’t think what you’re trying to imply is the case.
The only quote i’ve seen seems to indicate that he’s not really trying to claim some special or hyper-literal descent from Egypt. He literally acknowledges slave ancestry in the same quote. He didn’t even say anything like “We’re the real Egyptians” or anything like that, that would imply he’s trying to exclude other people from the conversation.
Now it’s true that type of ahistorical, exclusionary sentiment is common amongst Black people who discuss Egypt, but the crux of the issue is Egypt’s ethno-historical place in modern perception.
Again, do you think anyone would have a problem if he said “Remember when we were Zulu Kings” or “Nubian” kings? I know i certainly doubt it. But a Black man wants to claim Egyptian heritage and suddenly we gotta start tracing 3,000 year old genealogies.
I wonder how many AfrAms can actually claim Ashanti royal descent. Not Akan descent, not descent from some nearby related group, but actual verifiable descent from Ashanti nobility. Then i also wonder how many people who care when Black folks mention Egypt would give a damn if Black man said “Remember when we were Ashanti Kings” knowing that lineage is still active today. Again, if i had to guess it wouldn’t be very many. So i really don’t believe the controversy that always surrounds this topic has a whole lot to do with actual lineages.
I’m not even saying i support anything he’s doing, or even care about it at all. This is a whole lot of nothing to me and should’ve known his quote was going to be problematic when he said it. But ain’t no sense acting like we don’t know what the heart of the issue is.
But let me know if I’ve missed something, or misunderstood/misrepresented your position. [/QB]
“We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
^ Please don't assume Kevin Hart said this. Of the numerous articles none have sourced this and my guess is that it's fake. The man is famous so if he said this somebody would be able to verify it . And it doesn't even sound like the way he would phrase it if he did say it. Can you imagine Kevin Hart or any average American saying "cemented by education"
If you look at the statement it implies (sort of) AAs were kings in Egypt but, yes if you look at it precisely it does not specify decisively if you look at it like a lawyer.
The statement lacks clarity because of this changing between "they" and "we"
“We must teach our children ( our African American children)
the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery
this is very ambiguous, introducing "they" and right after that "not just the era of slavery" which relates to "we"
Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
Then it goes back to "we"
You could say it could apply to a king of any place in Africa But Egypt was put out there - it is like a suggestion because of the inconsistent unclear transitioning between we to they back to we ___________________
“We must teach our children the true history of black Africans when they were kings in Egypt, and not just the era of slavery that is cemented by education in America. Do you remember the time when we were kings?”
This statement, probably fabricated uses the word "black" but is not about being black , is not about what "black" means.
The statement is not trying to say "The Egyptians were Black" but this is how I see people talking about it
The statement is trying to convey this: African American history does not begin with slavery, before that we were kings in Egypt*
(or places somewhere in Africa, this is not clarified technically, although implied)
but because people love to argue if the Egyptians were "black" or not "what does black mean?" then these issues are often pushed into that dialog because it's a favorite sport of both Egyptian nationalist on social media and certain black people on social media
funny thing is the artist is a white Croatian dude goes by "Sanio" and Black Sands co-founder and head of the art studio is white.
I think this comment about Arabs, on Dec 21 is probably reaction to Hart's Cairo stop on his Mid East tour being announced cancelled a day earlier due to "logistical issues" according to the production company (but likely due to Kevin Hart or his management not wanting to get involved in further controversy) - but at some point in the future some interviewer or paparazzi might try to question Hart about it _______________________________
Many African Americans want Egypt to be part of their heritage And many Arab Egyptians want Egypt to be part of their heritage
And if you look at modern Egyptians, light and dark skinned Arabs and all Egyptians you can't tell by this looking which ones might have an actual percentage of ancient ancient Egyptian in their ancestry and it doesn't matter
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: I think there’s some overlap between people who study history and people who wish to “claim” history that exaggerates social divisions in the types of spaces we tend to interact in. If that makes sense.
I think the topic of history tends to attract ethno-nationalists who seek validation from their people's past greatness. You see it in many if not all brands of fascism, what with their "cults of tradition" as Umberto Eco called them. Sometimes these people also want to use history to denigrate groups they don't like, such as the anti-Black racists who either diminish indigenous African achievements or attribute them to non-Black peoples (or admixture with such). It's one way history has always been so politicized.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
@Brandon
I think one of your pictures is on the Twitter site of the "Egyptian history defenders"?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Arab nationalists reaction to Brandon's black nationalist interpretations
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: @Brandon
I think one of your pictures is on the Twitter site of the "Egyptian history defenders"?
Yeah, the North African racists have had a vendetta against me for quite some time. Usually it's Maghrebis that give me the most grief, but I have had a few Egyptian trolls as well. Fuck 'em. I believe I have that EHD group blocked on Twitter.
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
Most of these classical Roman/Greek era coins that are supposed to depict North Africans look damn near identical in styling to the coinage used to depict Greeks and Romans themselves. Makes one wonder how they were able to differentiate between themselves and their southern neighbors if they apparently they all looked alike, according to these coins. Truly one the great mysteries of antiquity. I wasn’t there though so I don’t know what any of these folks looked like.
I do know there are Greek divine figures who are Aethiopian that are usually depicted the same way most Greeks are (skin tone and all) but I don’t really know enough about the subject to know if this would be relevant to coinage. Also suppose an Aethiopian deity isn’t the same as an Aethiopian person.
Also what the hell does a Numidian king have to do with “Defending Egyptian history”? This type of stuff just makes my head hurt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
^ He don’t look like that coin, if that’s your point. Which i know it is.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
How does this picture
not look natural it looks normal unforced and proper the picture lioness showed of the pointy face man shows you that Ancient egyptians have a round face and rich reddishblack color. its not even funny.
For people to show lioness normal and calm pictures of Ancient Egyptians as Black Africans seems to be what is normal.
no matter what is said the posting of light colored egyptians with the statues and with the hairstyles of egyptins is shocking that anyone would argue this:
He is Black and has an Afro
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Seen in skin color and profile, rapper Snoop Dogg in some ways resembles yon captive..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: @Brandon
I think one of your pictures is on the Twitter site of the "Egyptian history defenders"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: ^ He don’t look like that coin, if that’s your point. Which i know it is.
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: Most of these classical Roman/Greek era coins that are supposed to depict North Africans look damn near identical in styling to the coinage used to depict Greeks and Romans themselves. Makes one wonder how they were able to differentiate between themselves and their southern neighbors if they apparently they all looked alike, according to these coins. Truly one the great mysteries of antiquity.
I wasn’t there though so I don’t know what any of these folks looked like.
Yes , we don't know what Numidians looked like and the only information about them comes from the Greek historian Polybius (wring about the period 264 BC and end in 146 BC and by Roman authors. The Numidian earlier origins are unknown. As far as oldest images only these coins, minted in Numidia depicting particular kings have been found although that popular one at the top seems to be a modern illustration designed to look like a coin (in new condition and perfect circle) while the lower two are documented by coin auctioneers but we can only speculate how close they are to how the average Numidian looked. There was also thought to be mixing between some of the Phoenicians, Greeks , Romans, Vandals, etc. and local nomadic people of Northern Africa
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Seen in skin color and profile, rapper Snoop Dogg in some ways resembles yon captive..
One of Tutankhamun's footsotols
I don't assume this dark brown color is necessarily intended to be a realistic skin color for the Libyans I have seem some art depicting them a slightly lighter brown than this but one might call a medium brown and I saw one of these with with a blue eye color and in other art a lighter sand or yellowish color.
On this footsool the figure's eye colors and beards are not painted. It looks like the raw wood for the figures and black paint added for the Nubians. Realism of skin tone for all these figures is uncertain
Native American ancestry of African Americans is estimated to be about 2% and European around 20+%. Snoop's is a lot higher
Snoop's a big Kush fan as well
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Yes and he still resembles the Libyan somewhat on some counts. North Africa likewise is a diverse place as Keita notes below, and black people are just as much part of the landscape there as anyone else. This is routine North African and African diversity.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: What source do you have for Snoop's ancestry?
Some update info on african,white and latino/hispanic americans for example. Real life and not real life.
This was posted in another forum/thread. It's a older post.
quote: I studied this issue for a while now and i have more of idea what's going on now. Larger number of blacks in the Caribbean do have not any admixture looking at dna samples and you have to careful about what regions or places you talking about. For example for haiti and Jamaica most blacks do not have any white admixture,but in the dominican republic and puerto rico most do. Some blacks in north and south america do not have white admixture or any admixture from other races at all,so let's keep that mind.
quote-
quote:As a result of centuries of having children with white people, the majority of African Americans have some European admixture, and many white people also have African ancestry. Writer and editor Debra Dickerson questions the legitimacy of the one-drop rule, stating that "easily one-third of black people have white DNA".She argues that in ignoring their European ancestry, African Americans are denying their fully articulated multi-racial identities. The peculiarity of the one-drop rule may be illustrated by the case of singer Mariah Carey, who was publicly called "another white girl trying to sing black", but in an interview with Larry King, responded that—despite her physical appearance and the fact that she was raised primarily by her white mother—due to the one-drop rule she did not "feel white". Recently, the possibility of genetic testing has raised new questions about the way African Americans describe their race.
Majority of black women were not rape in america. There is Major confusion on this. What has a happen is that some were rape(still a minority but large enough) but overtime those descendants intermarry with unmixed blacks and overtime most african americans had some form of white ancestry(from really small to large enough). I saw a statistic recently that show that even before 1890 after slavery most african americans were unmixed. After 1890 the black american population with some form of admixture just happen to out grow the ones that did not have any.
quote-
quote: By the way i saw/read some statistics saying that most black americans before 1890’s were unmixed. The black population that had some form admixture out grew the black american population that were unmixed,and it happen over time in 1800’s and more so the 1900’s. There could be varied reasons for that but in terms of raw numbers for example the unmixed black population was almost close in size to the black population with admixture in the 1930’s for example but that gap got wider faster i think in 1950’s or 60’s.
So it just happens for whatever reasons the unmixed black populations in america grew in numbers slow while those with admixture grew fast. There is number of reasons for that however. Better access to food,healthcare,increased intermarriages in 1950's and 60's and 70's more so etc..but there are still large number of unmixed african americans and more so black americans(if you add other black groups who are not ethnic african americans). The african americans with some form of admixture just happen to be the minority for most of the 1800's and only a slight majority for the last 10 years of the 1800's. For other black americans like african africans(those not descendants of black american slaves) and caribbean black americans most are unmixed by the way.
Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry but that's not talk about as often. I think i read something recently saying it's the majority of white americans. If not then a large minority of white americans,but it's the majority from new recent reports.
It was thought of by some years ago that most black americans had some form of native american dna but as time went on this was not case. Note- there are some who believe that most african amercians are still unmixed blacks and question these dna test,so keep that in mind. Example. 23andMe updates its ancestry reports, but they're still not perfect https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/15/23andme-updates-its-ancestry-reports-but-theyre-still-not-perfect/
Okay the above is real life by the way but when comes to american sci-fi/fantasy superhero comics it's a different story/different universes,laws,history etc.. and most african americans and white americans for example do not have any other race admixture at all.
Here is another example of comics vs real life and how different it is when it comes to background etc.. For latinos most are shown as poc in comics, but in real life in the u.s. census for example most are classified as white. If comics followed the example of what most latinos call themselves in real life then most latinos would be shown as white in comics too,but that's not the case.
Here is some posts below from other threads with some more update dna info.
quote:
African Americans constitute the second largest racial group in the U.S. after White Americans, as well as the third largest ethnic group after Hispanic and Latino Americans.[ Most African Americans are descendants of enslaved people within the boundaries of the present United States. On average, African Americans are of West/Central African with some European descent; some also have Native American and other ancestry.
According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%). Immigrants from some Caribbean and Latin American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term.
quote: Harvard University historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. wrote in 2009 that "African Americans...are a racially mixed or mulatto people—deeply and overwhelmingly so" (see genetics).
Note- Henry Louis got carried away and is incorrect. African americans on average are not mulattos/mixed Henry just like the average white american(even hispanic and non hispanic combined) is not mixed race just because most have admixture as well. Now on average these groups have admixture,but that's not the same as mixed.
quote:
African Americans/Genetics Genome-wide studies Recent surveys of African Americans using a genetic testing service have found varied ancestries which show different tendencies by region and sex of ancestors. These studies found that on average, African Americans have 73.2–82.1% West African, 16.7%–24% European, and 0.8–1.2% Native American genetic ancestry, with large variation between individuals.Genetics websites themselves have reported similar ranges, with some finding 1 or 2 percent Native American ancestry and Ancestry.com reporting an outlying percentage of European ancestry among African Americans, 29%.
According to a genome-wide study by Bryc et al. (2009), the mixed ancestry of African Americans in varying ratios came about as the result of sexual contact between West/Central Africans (more frequently females) and Europeans (more frequently males). Consequently, the 365 African Americans in their sample have a genome-wide average of 78.1% West African ancestry and 18.5% European ancestry, with large variation among individuals (ranging from 99% to 1% West African ancestry). The West African ancestral component in African Americans is most similar to that in present-day speakers from the non-Bantu branches of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) family.
Correspondingly, Montinaro et al. (2014) observed that around 50% of the overall ancestry of African Americans traces back to the Niger-Congo-speaking Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria and southern Benin, reflecting the centrality of this West African region in the Atlantic Slave Trade. The next most frequent ancestral component found among African Americans was derived from Great Britain, in keeping with historical records. It constitutes a little over 10% of their overall ancestry, and is most similar to the Northwest European ancestral component also carried by Barbadians. Zakharaia et al. (2009) found a similar proportion of Yoruba associated ancestry in their African-American samples, with a minority also drawn from Mandenka and Bantu populations. Additionally, the researchers observed an average European ancestry of 21.9%, again with significant variation between individuals. Bryc et al. (2009) note that populations from other parts of the continent may also constitute adequate proxies for the ancestors of some African-American individuals; namely, ancestral populations from Guinea Bissau, Senegal and Sierra Leone in West Africa and Angola in Southern Africa.
Altogether, genetic studies suggest that African Americans are a genetically diverse people. According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears). According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears). Research suggests that Native American ancestry among people who identify as African American is a result of relationships that occurred soon after slave ships arrived in the American colonies, and European ancestry is of more recent origin, often from the decades before the Civil War.
According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%).Immigrants from some Caribbean and Latin American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term.
________________________ Note- in real life some black or african americans just like white americans do not have any other race admixture. Well most black americans may have european dna but it still not significant enough.For it be significant and impact phenotype it needs to be 25% or up and that is not always the case for some.Having 1% asian or native american dna is really small and not significant as well and does not impact phenotype as well. Most white americans have other race admixture as well but tends to be smaller on average then the average black american real life race admixture but they have race admixture and for most of then too it's insignificant. By the way in comicbook superhero stories,shows,movies etc.. most white and black americans do not have any other race admixture and when a few do it's simplified.So the person is either 100% black or white,50% or 75% etc..
By way most latino/hispanic americans in comics are not white and are not classified as white,while in real life most are classified as white.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
White Americans
quote: Admixture Admixture in non-Hispanic whites White Americans (European Americans) on average are: 98.6 percent European, 0.19 percent African and 0.18 percent Native American. Inferred British/Irish ancestry is found in European Americans from all states at mean proportions of above 20%, and represents a majority of ancestry, above 50% mean proportion, in states such as Mississippi, Arkansas, and Tennessee. Scandinavian ancestry in European Americans is highly localized; most states show only trace mean proportions of Scandinavian ancestry, while it comprises a significant proportion, upwards of 10%, of ancestry in European Americans from Minnesota and the Dakotas.[89]
DNA analysis on White Americans by geneticist Mark D. Shriver showed an average of 0.7% Sub-Saharan African admixture and 3.2% Native American admixture. The same author, in another study, claimed that about 30% of all White Americans, approximately 66 million people, have a median of 2.3% of Black African admixture. Shriver discovered his ancestry is 10 percent African, and Shriver's partner in DNA Print Genomics, J.T. Frudacas, contradicted him two years later stating "Five percent of European Americans exhibit some detectable level of African ancestry."
Older studies have also been performed. In a 2007 study, Gonçalves et al. reported Sub-Saharan and Amerindian mtDNA lineages at a frequency of 3.1% (respectively 0.9% and 2.2%) in a sample of 1387 American Caucasians as compared to 62% in white Brazilians (respectively 29% and 33%), 98% for white Colombians (respectively 8% and 90%) and similarly high levels for Argentines, Chileans, and Costa Ricans. A 2003 study on Y-chromosomes and mtDNA found African admixture in European-Americans to be "below the limits of detection".
Admixture in Hispanic whites
quote: In contrast to non-Hispanic or Latino whites, whose average European ancestry is 98.6%,genetic research has found that the average European admixture among White Hispanic and Latino Americans is 73%, while the average European admixture for Hispanic Americans overall (regardless of their self-identified race) is 65.1%.
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Edited/added info above.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Well most black americans may have european dna but it still not significant enough.For it be significant and impact phenotype it needs to be 25% or up and that is not always the case for some.Having 1% asian or native american dna is really small and not significant as well and does not impact phenotype as well. Most white americans have other race admixture as well but tends to be smaller on average then the average black american real life race admixture but they have race admixture and for most of then too it's insignificant.
I don't think you need up to 25% to affect phenotype. Le5s than 25% can do it. Snoop's angular facial type structure is not an exclusive Native American marker, it can occur naturally in Africans, being the most diverse of all, but such can appear in others with less than 25%. Don't know her direct level % but you have for example soul singer Chaka Khan for example- who claims part Blackfoot ancestry.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Course these days with so many claimants its hard to tell who has authentic N-Amer ancestry.
Co-founder of queer Indigenous artists' collective in Wisconsin is unmasked as a WHITE woman - after claiming she was Native American and two-spirit
Kay LeClaire, who went by Nibiiwakamigkwe has claimed to be Native American Hobbyist genealogist AdvancedSmite posted research on an online forum alleging that LeClaire has been profiting from Indigenous peoples They has since released a statement saying that they are is not using the Ojibwe name given to them and are removing themselves from all positions and projects AdvancedSmite claimed they used online records and resources to find LeClaire's true lineage
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: Yes and he (Snoop Dogg) still resembles the Libyan somewhat on some counts. North Africa likewise is a diverse place as Keita notes below, and black people are just as much part of the landscape there as anyone else. This is routine North African and African diversity.
Snoop Dogg's appearance has little relevance to North East Africans, he never said he was North African
The ancestral makeup of Libyans depicted in 18th dynasty art is unknown as to how African or otherwise they were (similarly Numidians) and this can't be determined by looking at the art
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: Most of these classical Roman/Greek era coins that are supposed to depict North Africans look damn near identical in styling to the coinage used to depict Greeks and Romans themselves.
Somebody could say the coins are depicting examples falling under African diversity
North Africans are diverse in appearance, yes
Tomb of Rameses III
But we don't know Massinissa's skin tone or other physical traits beyond the coins depicting him (Massinissa or Micipsa) and other Numidian and Mauretanian kings
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
Africans and native americans and the myth of high check bones
I REMEMBER there was talk brought up about the high checkbones issue a couple of times in other fourms.
Here is some talk about this from a black forum and some forums.
Originally Posted by David674UT View Post
quote: I've seen a picture of My great grandmother and you can tell She was a full blooded Indian(Dark Skin,high cheekbones).
replied from muscogeebutterfly
quote:
Careful now. I know many a woman from Ghana, and Togo, that, are dark skinned, and have high cheekbones, lol. High cheekbones, are not unique to Native Americans. Also some Asian countries, say Korea and Vietnam, some people exhibit, high cheekbone, so.....just sayin.
from native-american-ancestry-myth
Yogi quote-
quote:
I thought high cheek bones was more of an African trait for want of a better phrase. I know alot of Ghanians and Nigerians that have prominently high cheek bones.
newlybetchen V-
quote: I know. Cry I have one too! Thank God for lace fronts. Big%20smile Now my fore head is a secret. I didn't know that large fore heads were thought (by some) to be a Native American trait. I always thought Native Americans had lower hairlines. Confused I wonder what I'll learn next. People will credit their brown skin, shapely bodies, full lips, and textured hair to Native American ancestry as well. BHM never ceases to surprise me.
GCurly replied-
quote: I think I have high cheekbones .... right? *and poof!!* In my opinion they're an African trait because I don't have ANY Native American blood in my veins (to my knowlegde) but my African blood I'm very sure of. (I'm from the Caribbean) Also, most of the women and men in my family have high cheekbones.
RunninRabbit- replied-
quote: many africans and native americans SHARE the trait of very defined cheekbones (high or otherwise) and very accentuated bone structures in the face. it is possible for different groups to share traits. like some afrians, melanesisans, polynesians, aboriginales etc. share noses with undefined bridges. lets also remember there are different nations of idigenous features and a wide variety of phenotypes in africa as well. some natives have high cheekbones and some have some that sink to the bottom of their face mexican style(when u move farther south). and some africans have cheekbones that sit up like buffies booty while others have more defined jawlines than cheeks. and for anyone in the diaspora your visible features could come from a variety of places.............................but mostly likely its african Evil%20Smile
GCurly replied-
quote: LOL @ your little red devil. Yes ... most likely it's your african roots. What's your major Runnin? Because your African/Indigenous/... BLACK, lol, history is always on point!
______________________________________ quote-
quote: African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley
quote- Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans, including Europeans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003).
and quote-
African people have a range of physical variation and don't need inspiration or mixes from cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics to explain why. Features like narrow noses, thin lips, height etc are all indigenous to Africa. Africa has both the highest phenotypic diversity and the highest genetic diversity in the world and don’t need cold-climate/light skin inspiration for that established fact. All cold-climate/light skinned Europeans and Asiatics are SUBSETS of original African diversity. Modern DNA studies find even though some African peoples look different, they are genetically related through the PN2 transition clade of the Y-chromosome. Thus light-skinned African Libyans and dark-skinned Zulus are all genetically related Africans, even though they don't look exactly the same. (Keita 2004; Tishkoff 2002, Ely et al, 2006, Stevanovitch 2004)
Posted by Firewall (Member # 20331) on :
This was posted in other threads/forum here and elsewhere so i will posted here too.Some of it is a repeat from post above well and some things i left out because it's the same info from above too. I post/leave the comicbook talk in as well because i am heavy into.
quote:
A 2003 study found an average of 18.6% (±1.5%) European admixture in a population sample of 416 African Americans from Washington, DC. Studies of other populations in other areas have found differing percentages of ethnicity. Twenty percent of African Americans have more than 25% European ancestry, reflecting the long history of unions between the groups. The "mostly African" group is substantially African, as 70% of African Americans in this group have less than 15% European ancestry. The 20% of African Americans in the "mostly mixed" group (2.7% of US population) have between 25% and 50% European ancestry.
I trust the MARK D. SHRIVER dna testing ONE MORE. quote- According to DNA analysis led in 2006 by Penn State geneticist Mark D. Shriver, around 58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5% European ancestry (equivalent to one European great-grandparent and his/her forebears), 19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25% European ancestry (equivalent to one European grandparent and his/her forebears), and 1 percent of African Americans have at least 50% European ancestry (equivalent to one European parent and his/her forebears). According to Shriver, around 5 percent of African Americans also have at least 12.5% Native American ancestry (equivalent to one Native American great-grandparent and his/her forebears).
The average african american have little recent european dna,not alot.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the study above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
quote:
Most african americans have some form european admixture(most do not have european admixture in comics,cartoons and characters that are played in live action movies and shows however).
There are questions if most have some form of admixture or not in real life(our universe).Most that have admixture is not a huge admixture anyway(so the recent european admixture had no impact on the phenotype of most african americans) and they look or most look like the ethnic groups they come from in africa anyway. Africans vary from all types of looks.In africa you could see africans(depending on the ethnic group and individuals) that look more like african americans.I should say african americans look more like the africans they come from. Africans have the most diverse look on earth from phenotype to skin tone and size..Some folks forget that. There are unmixed black africans with varied skin tones and some are brown skin to light skin who are unmixed.
Note-when i say european admixture,i am talking from those that look white.Not from first pre-historic europeans were originally black anyway since they further you go back the only humans on earth were black africans.
quote: The average admixture rate for african americans looking at the some studies above is lower then 20%,it is around 12%,and i have seen studies that said the average was 10% and others say 15 to 17% on average depending on who is doing the study,so clearly the admixture study varies,but 12% to 10% is more accurate to me.I just wanted to mention this or be clear about this,because from what i read recently and got from some dna experts is that some african americans by the way do not have european admixture at all,and for those that do, the admixture levels on average is lower then folks think looking at the study above, just saying.Most african americans do not have any form of native american dna by the way looking at that study.
This was written by someone else.
quote: QUOTE- The facial composites look well within the range of what can be seen among African-Americans and Nigerians. I don't see how the African-American sample looks more West Indian or Caribbean. You really think that a 10% or so Afro-Caribbean influence would seriously affect any average? Not even a 10% white nordic influence would affect how the average looks like to any significant degree. Any type of admixture is only noticeable at the >25% range.
So it is not even 20%.So it seems that 25% and up is need for other race admixture to change the phenotype of blacks,but not always of course.Of course unmixed blacks with more of a european look it would be the same for them too. There have been some more recent talk about maybe more african americans have no european admixture at all or maybe most african americans do not have any admixture and a big con job is happening.Another point,it takes at least 25% or up for european admixture to have a impact on african phenotype and skin tone or color,and even then that is not always the case.We all know that unmixed africans vary in skin tone as well.I am just saying.
Most white americans have recent african admixture and some have native american/asian.I wonder why this not mention often.Hmmm.
quote:
Okay the above is real life by the way but when comes to american sci-fi/fantasy superhero comics it's a different story/different universes,laws,history etc.. and most african americans and white americans for example do not have any other race admixture at all.
Here is another example of comics vs real life and how different it is when it comes to background etc..
For latinos most are shown as poc in comics, but in real life in the u.s. census for example most are classified as white. If comics followed the example of what most latinos call themselves in real life then most latinos would be shown as white in comics too,but that's not the case.
quote: Note-in superhero sci-fi- fantasy comics most african americans are unmixed blacks, racism is less then in the real world and alot more blacks live in north africa then they do in the real world but those are different universes,with alot of different history,more advance technological achievements etc.. Of course writers jobs is to focus on superhero stories and not bring in to much real world stories,politics,dna stuff etc.. in comics.Besides the comic industry and many of the characters were created before most folks knew anything about dna etc..,so writers in the past and today still keep simple as possible when it comes to background, history etc.. Of course alot of blacks still live in north africa today,they just the not majority anymore like they were in the past and at one time they were the only population in north africa.
Here is more of summary from the above,you know kinda repeating what i said but shorter form and some added info by the way.
quote:
Not all african americans have european dna.It's about 80's or less.If you include other black americans it's even less than that.Most other black americans who are not african american by the way are unmixed blacks.Anyway some folks believe most ethnic african americans do not have any european dna at all and most really unmixed blacks.Anyway worldwide most blacks are unmixed anyway. In africa most are unmixed and that is where most black live. Note-in fantasy superhero comics like dc,marvel etc..most african/black americans and most whites americans are unmixed anyway.Keep mind those are alternate universe where in dc for example earth 2 south africa was free earlier and in one alternate universe in marvel for example there is a earth that is still all black.
Here some talk about that and sunspot in the comics and movies for example.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Africans and native americans and the myth of high check bones
I REMEMBER there was talk brought up about the high checkbones issue a couple of times in other fourms.
Here is some talk about this from a black forum and some forums.
Most are right about the diversity of Africans including the high cheekbones. The San for example, one of the most ancient African cultures have loads of people with high or angular seeming cheekbones.
Snoop is relevant when pictures are posted in various forums to present NE Africans as just a few limited physical types. AA pics are often posted to demonstrate that AfAm features are routinely within the range of such NE Africans, and cannot be segregated to the stereotypical "true negro" models so often posted in much media. The same goes for the selective posting of AEs as one type in looks while ignoring those that do not meet the preferred stereotype. Blacks whether AfAm, or SSA, being just as "NE African" in looks as anyone else with African ancestry.
Posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
QUOTE- The facial composites look well within the range of what can be seen among African-Americans and Nigerians. I don't see how the African-American sample looks more West Indian or Caribbean. You really think that a 10% or so Afro-Caribbean influence would seriously affect any average? Not even a 10% white nordic influence would affect how the average looks like to any significant degree. Any type of admixture is only noticeable at the >25% range.
Based on what scholarship/evidence (not Youtube or someone's web forum post) is the claim that you need at least 25% race mix to visibly affect a phenotype?
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: Most of these classical Roman/Greek era coins that are supposed to depict North Africans look damn near identical in styling to the coinage used to depict Greeks and Romans themselves.
Somebody could say the coins are depicting examples falling under African diversity
I wouldn’t even necessarily say that they don’t, though I do get the feeling that they’re weren’t really trying to be photorealistic depictions either; just general depictions within the established stylistic framework. Whereas with the Egyptian footstool Libyan you posted, it’s pretty evident that whoever created it was trying to capture subtleties of real life peoples, not just in facial features but in hairstyles too. Which seems common in a lot of Egyptian work, with notable examples even showing distinct clothing and other accessories. Now obviously a lot of that just isn’t feasible on a coin (which might even reinforce my point) but still.
To give a different example, consider Greek depictions of Aethiopians. Now you can find a lot of of Aethiopian depictions that are very clearly stylized to look like [Black] African people - garb and all. But it’s not uncommon to the see Aethiopians depicted identical to the way Greeks are depicted, with the only difference being dark skin, or even in some cases not even that.
I also have a non-Greek example in my head, that i think is a Persian relief (or maybe Assyrian), which depicts a few different groups of people all with the exact same face. The only thing that distinguishes them is their hair (and maybe the clothing too but I can’t recall). It’s an old metallic looking relief that i’m sure you’ll have seen/debated a thousand times. Point being that not all artistic representations are even striving for realism to begin with.
I’ll have to do some more research in to the topic, and I’ll try to post some examples as well tomorrow. I’m commenting from my phone and really don’t feel like bothering with formatting. Still, the point i was making is not that the coins couldn’t represent what he looked liked (i try not assume i know better than contemporaries), i’m just skeptical that the coins were ever trying to capture his real visage in the first place.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Breadlum: i’m just skeptical that the coins were ever trying to capture his real visage in the first place. [/QB]
why? several of the Numidian kings look different from one another on the coins, not like a generic type
Posted by Breadlum (Member # 23648) on :
@ Lioness
I’ll explain using a website i found of Numidian coins; though I haven’t vetted it so no promises about the accuracy.
Peruse the coinage for a moment. The 3 that immediately jump out to me are Syphax, Vermina, and Adherbal. 3 different men with strikingly similar profiles. Now Vermina is Syphax’s son, so that in and of itself isn’t all that notable. But then Syphax’s 2nd coin has a profile more similar to Massinissa’s coins than to his own 1st coin. Then of course there’s the caveat of “Massinissa’s” coins possibly not even all actually being his coins, and it becomes even more confusing. Now again, the possible other candidates are his descendants, so them looking similar isn’t much to write home about, but looking damn near identical could be cause for some skepticism.
Then of course we have Juba I. Now he’s the only one who actually has a hairstyle associated with the region or culture, yet still has the Greek profile. This raises the question of whether or not there is a standard of Numidian rulers wearing the hairstyle associated with Numidians, or if makes a lot of sense for a Numidian man to have what looks to me to be a Greek/Roman facial profile. Also were Numidian rulers known to wear the leaf crown typically associated with their northern Mediterranean counterparts, or is that artistic license?
To reinforce my suspicion of a “Greek” and/or “Roman” profile, let’s examine the visages of mythical beings, such as Zeus-amon or the personification of Africa. Who was the template for these mythical beings? Assuming there was a standard for certain types of depictions, it seems to me that the most likely sources for the profiles would be either Greek or Roman. The Zeus coin in particular seems to reflect some general styling continuity that even applies to non-coin depictions; reinforcing the idea that there is a stylistic framework to this era of coinage.
I’m also reminded of certain coins associated with Hannibal, which to my understanding bear a striking resemblance in profile to certain coins depicting Greek god Hercules. A cursory google search seems (to me) to support this. Again implying that there is a framework informing the depictions on this style of coinage.
None of this is to say that any of these people couldn’t or didn’t look as depicted on coinage; but i think there’s sufficient reason to doubt that coins are even meant to faithful renditions at all. Without knowing more, I could certainly see a world whereupon commission, the goal was more to get coinage in the general area, within the established framework - and it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if rulers preferred to be modeled after deities/divine beings. I could also see a world where (perhaps due to technology constraints) coins were designed using pre-existing templates and minted after making minor adjustments to said templates - i.e. a framework.
I’ve never really looked into the subject though, so this is all eyeball science and deduction/conjecture. I plan on at least doing some research into the process and conventions of ancient coinage production, but I welcome any insights you might have.
EDIT: Seeing how long this post turned out to be, this might warrant a new topic lmao.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A video about Kevin Hart and the Blackness of Ancient Egyptians with Dr. Molefi Kete Asante
Good on Kevin Hart for trumping the blacknesss of Egypt.
So many people are trying to get him to Backdown, Yet he stands firm.
Im proud of Kevin Hart and hope even all Blacks stand up because zahi hawass is a culture thief especially when this is shown
Egyptians and the Nubians interlinked as one BAM
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Basically the problem is that there are a whole lot of agendas coming up against facts and evidence that goes against them.
First, European race theory in anthropology that posits certain features only belong to certain populations. So if those features exist anywhere else, it must be due to mixture....
quote:By the use of this material we propose to follow the history of the white race from its Pleistocene1 beginnings to the present, and to provide a classification of sub-races which will be fully in accord with the facts as we now know them. We submit the thesis that man, as a domestic animal, is extremely variable; and that he has subjected himself, in his wanderings, to all of the environments of the earth, and hence is subject to environmental modification in a way unequalled by any other species. We further suggest that man, through his development of human cultures, has modified his bodily form by his own devices.
During the Pleistocene period there were several species of primates which had attained some degree of human culture, by the acquisition of stone implements, of fire, and of speech. In the present post-glacial or interglacial period, in conformity with the general reduction in faunal varieties, man has been reduced to a single species, unique in a single genus. During the Pleistocene one species, at least, had developed in the manner of a foetalized terrestrial ape, and it is that species which carries today the main stem of Homo sapiens. Other species, including the fossil men of Java, of Peking, and Homo wander thalensis, had developed at the same time into a heavier, hypermasculine endocrine form, with a luxuriance of jaws, teeth, and bony crests.
We propose to demonstrate that these non-foetalized species did not wholly die out, but that at least one of them was absorbed into the main human stem, at some time during the Middle, or the initial part of the Late, Pleistocene. From this amalgamation was produced the large, rugged, and relatively un-foetalized group of Upper Palaeolithic men in Europe, North Africa, and northern Asia. This type of man passed over Bering Straits in early post-glacial times, if not earlier, to provide the basic genetic stock from which the American Indian developed, in combination with later arrivals. From a branch of this hyperborean group there evolved, in northern Asia, the ancestral strain of the entire specialized mongoloid family.
We suggest that the ancestors of the whites in their major form developed during pluvial periods of the Pleistocene in parts of what is now the arid zone reaching from the Sahara to northern India; that in post-glacial times many were forced out of these homes by desiccation, and that some of them originated agriculture and animal husbandry in northeastern Africa and southwestern Asia. From these centers agricultural pioneers followed post-glacial zones of climate into Europe, gradually encroaching upon the lands formerly glaciated. In most of the regions which they occupied they greatly outnumbered the descendants of the hunters and fishers whose ancestors had clung on since glacial times, and many of whom had followed the retreating ice toward its last melting nuclei.
....
The occupation of all arable lands, and those suitable for grazing, was not completed in a century, or in a millennium; the process was a gradual one, and the withdrawal of the earlier inhabitants into environmentally protected fastnesses equally gradual. The entry of food-producers from Asia and Africa did not take a single route or involve a single people; it was a complex sequence of migrations through several ports of entry. The various strains of food-producers mixed with the food-gatherers whom they encountered, and with each other, until, in our own time, not a single group of complete food-gatherers has remained in white man's territory.
The food-producers seem to have been variants on one central racial theme, the basic Mediterranean. This basic Mediterranean stock varied in many respects, especially in stature and in pigmentation, but in its essential qualities, which segregated it from non- whites, it was remarkably uniform. We do not know that the survivors of the food-gatherers whom the Mediterranean food-producers absorbed were white in soft-part morphology, and there is some evidence that some had begun to evolve in a mongoloid, others perhaps in a negroid, direction. Such variations may be seen within the present composite white racial amalgam.
At any rate, the main conclusion of this study will be that the present races of Europe are derived from a blend of (A) , food-producing peoples from Asia and Africa, of basically Mediterranean racial form, with (j5), the descendants of inter glacial and glacial food-gatherers, produced in turn by a blending of basic Homo sapiens, related to the remote ancestor of the Mediterraneans, with some non- sapiens species of general Neanderthaloid form. The actions and interactions of environment, selection, migration, and human culture upon the various entities within this amalgam, have produced the white race in its present complexity.
Then there is pan arabism which pushes the idea of North Africa as being part of the Arab world. Which often also means implying that North African identity is part of Arab identity.
Not to mention the history of Egyptology itself which basically a battle for European control of ancient history. And keep in mind the only reason that the Europeans got control of that history is because the Ottomans of the "Near East" allowed them to take it:
The History Of Egyptology | Live Q&A With Dr Chris Naunton
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