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Here a collection of peer-reviewed papers on the subject since many here believe that millions of slaves couldn't have impacted north africans. Of course not all north africans are concerned by this but it explains why urban areas tend to be more diverse in terms of phenotypes, my own behaviour in how I categorize some north africans which some here have interpreted as "racism" "cherrypicking" and why I warn people when it comes to "average" datas which are often misleading since they include outliers with high proportion of sub-saharan ancestry.
Before posting the evidence of such impact, you have to understand that in regards to islamic law, it is totally acceptable to contract unions with your slaves and have children with them but the woman involved gain a new status known as "umm al walad" and become freedwoman. The children of such unions were not considered slaves (no such thing as "one-drop rule") as long as their father was a local muslim that's why many great figures in our history were half-black including some Sultans. The father gives to his son his "nasab" (ethnic kinship) regardless of the mother’s status, whether non-Muslim, Berber, black, or slave. So that's how populations from MENAs gradually absorbed black ancestry throughout the centuries.
Based on that, the fact that they found a sex-biased SSA contribution isn't surprising and is a well historically attested phenomenon where most slaves were females :
quote: Males were sought for a variety of functions: doorkeepers, secretaries, militaries or eunuchs. Black soldiers were seen from Islamic Spain to Egypt, and in Morocco a whole generation of black young boys were bought at the age of 10 or 11 and trained to become its army. However, the bulk of the trade was in females, as domestic servants, entertainers and/or concubines: two females for every male overall, in contrast to the ratio of two males for every female overall in the Atlantic trade [15]. Some harems could be enormous, reaching even the extravagating number of 14,000 concubines. Young female slaves were instructed in household crafts and were then provided with resources to buy a home and get married.
quote:According to Mohammed Ennaji, slave ownership in Morocco was associated with prestige and high status.20 Although slaves from both sexes were involved in domestic work, the overwhelming majority were females. In addition to being concubines, female slaves were responsible for household chores and child rearing and provided entertainment for the urban elite.
quote:Thus the main demand for slaves in the Islamic World was for women and girls as household servants, entertainers and/or as concubines. ‘The most common and enduring purpose for acquiring slaves in the Arab World was to exploit them for sexual purposes. ’13 This seems reasonable when it is accepted (and the slave trade returns of nineteenth-century British consular officials in North Africa and the Sahara confirm) that about two-thirds of slaves taken across the desert were women and girls, either to be sold singly, or to be presented in a group to the appropriate authority as tribute, a tax settlement or a gift."
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 3
Now let's get to the facts :
quote: Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
quote: Previous analyzes of mtDNA lineages in North African populations suggest significant Eurasian origins [41–43] with lineages dating back to Paleolithic times [41] and with recent gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa linked to slave trade [44].
quote:A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." "The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago.
quote:Most sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa are presently difficult to date and probably arrived at various times, but the age of the sub-Saharan subclade L3e5 indicates its arrival in North Africa from the south ~7 ka, following its expansion in the immediate postglacial humid phase ~11.5 ka [66]. Other L3 lineages seem to have been introduced even in more recent times, during the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa [67]. The Near Eastern haplogroups J and T (and probably K) appear to be concentrated more towards the east [68], mirroring the higher densities of U6, H and V in the west [64].
quote:Regarding the sub-Saharan African component, Algeria (20%) is at the same level as Morocco (20.4%) and Egypt (22.9%) but significantly lower (p = 0.003) than Tunisia (30.1%) and marginally lower (p = 0.059) than Libya (27.1%). Aside from the widespread haplogroup L2a, the majority (14%) of Algerian L lineages (L1b, L2a1, L2b, L2c, L3b, L3d) are of West Africa origin. Those from Central Africa (L1c, L3e, L3f) account for an additional 5%, leaving around 1% for those of East African ancestry (L0, L3*, L4). It has been suggested that these lineages reached North Africa since Holocene times, when climatic amelioration permeated the Saharan desert. However the historical trans-Saharan slave trade promoted by the Arabs may have been mainly responsible for their present day incidence [9], [76].
quote:Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012). However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations.
quote:It is worth mentioning that, compared with current North African samples,IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in the MEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could be in agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide data from Morocco, which estimated a migration of western African origin into Morocco only ~1,200 y ago
quote: Interestingly, eastern populations (i.e. Libya and Egypt) share ancestry assigned to both the Bantu-speaking Luhya and the Nilotic-speaking Maasai, whereas western populations share ancestry mainly with the Luhya. Of note is that the South Moroccan and western Saharan populations contain considerable variation across individuals in the amount of sub-Saharan ancestry (see also [14,26]), consistent with recent admixture.
quote:We find that the closest source of African ancestry for most populations in our dataset is Bantu Speakers from Kenya, in addition to contributions from Nilo-Saharan speakers from Ethiopia specifically in the Saudi population. We estimate that African admixture in the Middle East occurred within the last 2,000 years, with most populations showing signals of admixture around 500-1,000 years ago
quote:At K=5,a new component is separated within the sub-Saharan African populations (lilac), being maximized in Hazda individuals. At this point, the sub-Saharan African ancestry observed both in IAM and Taforalt splits, showing both the red and lilac components. At K=7, IAM and Taforalt form a separate component (yellow), which is observed in modern populations of North Africa, some populations from the Horn of Africa and some populations from the Middle East. As reported by Loosdrecht et al. (2018), modern populations of North Africa do not exhibit the lilac component. We also observe that this component is almost missing from KEB and Guanches.
There has been much much more black slaves than white and most of these european slaves were redeemed by christian associations that's how these corsairs used to make money.
quote:Such may indeed have been the casein Egypt and other parts of the Arab Mashriq, where white slaves were imported over many centuries. But few white slaves exported as such from Europe were sold in the Maghreb after the high Middle Ages. Instead, Europeans (mostly Greeks and Italians) likely to have influenced local gene pools were the unredeemed Christian captives from ships taken by Barbary corsairs, those seized in raids on nearby European islands and coasts, and including also those who gained themselves local freedom by turning Muslim. 40
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 23-24
let alone reaching such numbers like in the case of black slaves :
quote: Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century, soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
quote:In his monumental Tableau géographique de l’Ouest Africain au moyen age, Raymond Mauny estimated that in its first 900 years (seventh–fifteenth centuries), the Islamic Saharan trade delivered nearly 6 million live black slaves to the far side of the desert. According to his calculations, the trade started at a modest average rate of 1,000 slaves/year in the seventh century, doubled in the next century and again in the ninth, reached 5,000 slaves/year in thirteenth century, doubled to 10,000/year in the fourteenth century, and doubled again to 20,000/year in the fifteenth. The trade continued at that average yearly rate, Mauny believed, until the twentieth century; however he later revised his figures upwards125 (see Table 3.1).
John Wright, the Trans-Saharan Slave Trade, pp. 38
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Slavery in Europe and Islam was a practice that existed spanning Eurasia even before they penetrated Africa. There are whole dynasties of slaves in Islamic history such as the Mamluks who came from various Turkic groups and Caucasian groups. Then there is the fact that the word slave derives from "slav" as the slavic peoples were the preferred groups for European and Muslim slavery for many years even before Africans. And this practice continued with the Ottomans who enslaved many caucasian populations as they expanded into the Caucasus region. The reason for this in Islam is because any culture that was pagan was therefore subject to slavery and conquest. And this is why so many ethnic groups have been enslaved within Islam over its history and this has nothing to do with being African. In fact the reason for so many wars in Africa during the Medieval period was due to African kingdoms adopting Islam and then going on Jihads against other Africans. And even more to the point, during the spread of Islam into North Africa, there are numerous documented accounts of the native populations in North Africa also being enslaved.
As for black people being in Africa, there has never been a time in the history of Africa where black skinned people were not in Northern pats of Africa. Therefore the idea that this phenotype disappeared or only reappeared due to slavery is pure propaganda propagated by European anthropologists.
Cave of the swimmers in Libya one of the many examples of art from thousands of years ago depicting black Africans in Africa, showing that DNA is not phenotype and that black skin has always been in Africa and all parts of it.
quote: Tassili n'Ajjer is a national park in the Sahara desert, located on a vast plateau in southeastern Algeria. Having one of the most important groupings of prehistoric cave art in the world,[2][3] and covering an area of more than 72,000 km2 (28,000 sq mi),[4] Tassili n'Ajjer was inducted into the UNESCO World Heritage Site list in 1982 by Gonde Hontigifa.
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Obviously this issue is more related to whether some of the DNA lineages labeled as "Eurasian" are actually African and so forth.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Obviously this issue is more related to whether some of the DNA lineages labeled as "Eurasian" are actually African and so forth.
I think those continental labels are becoming less relevant. Thought experiment take any given haplogroup and look at one of those heat maps that shows the world distribution of it. Often you will see it overlap more than one continent Then imagine "Africa" , "Eurasia", "Europe", "Asia" imagine all those terms didn't exist, only these haplogroup maps existed
The DNA doesn't care about those geographic labels It forms it's own geography
So as we go into the future more and more DNA data will be collected and the broad geographic labels will become less and less African.
So all of these questions "is this African DNA" is that "Eurasian" these questions trying to tie the DNA to the old continental geography and it's old racial connotations will become less and less relevant.
On the biological level if a person has certain DNA, that DNA maps how it wants to It doesn't care about being "African" or "European" or "Asian" The DNA often overlaps those continental areas. As we go into the future there will be less and less need to fit everything into the old continental paradigm We are now in the era where people get their DNA tested and the results often have a lot different regions in their ancestry and often mother and father are not from the same place in our modern world of transportation. The DNA doesn't care if it doesn't fit into the old geographic-racial paradigm
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quote: “The most extensive pan-African haplotype (16189 16192 16223 16278 16294 16309 16390) is in the L2a1 haplogroup. This sequence is observed in West Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Malinke, Wolof, and others; in North Africa among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Hausa and others; in Central Africa among the Niger-Congo family including the Bamileke and others; in South Africa among the Khoisan family including the Khwe and the Niger-Congo family Bantu speakers; and in East Africa among the Niger-Congo family Kikuyu.
Closely related variants are observed among the Afro-Asiatic family including the Tuareg in North and West Africa and among the East African Nilo-Saharan family Dinka. Thus, identical mitochondrial haplotypes are often shared among ethnic groups with considerable language diversity.”
(Bert Ely et al., African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups)
quote:The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.
Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.
Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.
Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations (Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.
Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.
(S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied, Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The most unspoken and underdressed part of (North) African history:
quote:“Purchase of Christian captives for Manumission by Catholic monks in the Barbary states”.
“The Christians faced the grim fate of all those ever held in the thralldom of slavery. Their captors deprived them of their human dignity. The North African slave prisons, centers of disease and torture, became their homes. After their sale at the markets where they were stripped and examined like cattle, they faced a life at the oar or in the field, at the mercy of their new masters. The slave's only hope of escape lay in apostasy or ransom. Conversion to Islam won them immediate release from slavery but prevented their ever returning to their homeland. Ransom proved a long and uncertain road to freedom. In some cases a kind master might grant manumission. But the vast majority of Christians died in their chains.”
quote: "The aim of this article is to illustrate the process whereby certain Berber tribes during the eighth century A.D. substituted slaves from the Bilād al-Sūdān for Berber slaves from North Africa. From the outset, this conversion was influenced strongly, if not instigated, by Ibāḍī merchants until the slave trade became a predominantly Ibāḍī monopoly from the mid-eighth century onwards. The slave trade along the central Sudan route in particular provided the increase in the community's wealth and security, as well as the means for its establishment and expansion as a Muslim sect among diverse Berber tribes and, finally, as the origins for the subsequent, far-flung network of trans-Saharan trade."
As Muslim IIbadT-s, the Berbers, though later routed by the caliph's armies, nevertheless succeeded in transforming their status from slaves to slavers. Between the end of the seventh century and the middle of the eighth they created a trading network that tapped the regions south of the Sahara, the Bilad al-Suidan, as a new source for slaves. By monopolizing the supply of black slaves as well as the means by which they reached markets in North Africa, IbadT Berber traders created a secure economic base throughout the eastern and central Maghrib.1
[…]
Demand for North African slaves lay primarily in the east, where they were sold for different purposes in the markets of the central Islamic lands. The best known historically were the female singers, qayna, who entertained the caliphs themselves. Though the majority of slaves was barely noticed by history, an eleventh-century writer, Ibn Butlan, wrote about the singers that the ideal slave was a Berber woman who from the age of nine had spent three years in Madina, three in Mecca and then nine in Iraq.
The demand for North African slaves in eastern markets was initially fed by captives from the conquest.36 Later, slaves were either levied by taxation37 or purchased. After the second half of the eighth century, buying slaves in markets increasingly became the main source.
[…]
Slaves mentioned in this context, it should be noted, do not signify black Africans; black slaves from the sub-Sahara appear in North African markets only at the end of the seventh century. It is worth mentioning that their first use must have been either domestic or agricultural, since there is no mention of a 'black' military guard until the end of the ninth century.46 In earlier periods, for example during the Third Punic War, the North Africans seized had been white Berbers. In fact, ancient Latin sources cite but six black slaves, and they were Ethiopians.47 The Berbers whom 'Uqba captured were said to have been enslaved as a punishment for breaking faith with his predecessor, 'Amr b. al-'As. For this transgression, their enslavement was regarded as legally justified by the main-stream Islamic tradition.
[…]
Michael Brett has cautioned that this detailed account of Ibn 'Abd al- Hakam should not be read too literally. In a careful analysis, Robert Brunschvig, followed by Brett, proposed that this account is a later, apocryphal legal justification of the enslavement of Muslim Berbers.5" Both scholars reach this conclusion by taking into account the strict Maliki milieu of Ibn 'Abd al-Hakam in the late ninth century, when all schools had forbidden the enslavement of members of the Dar al-Islam. Ibn 'Abd al- Hakam thus would have sought to excuse 'Uqba ibn NafT"s enslavement of Muslim Berbers by depicting them as having broken faith, thereby clearly provoking the penalty of enslavement.
[…]
The grain of truth may be that Berber slaves seized in war as punishment, as well as those enslaved for payment of the jizya,54 figured prominently as tribute well past the earliest raids of 'Amr b. al-'As.55.
[…]
'Ubayd Allah b. al-Habhab (734-40), for example, is described as bending all his efforts to obtain them. It was this amir who sent a campaign to Sfis in the western Sahara, ostensibly to chastise its Berbers, from whom he levied a great booty - 'a multitude of prisoners.
[…]
Only a few years later, in the 740s, 'Abd al-Rahman b. HabTb, like him, was going farther and farther afield to satisfy the demand for slaves.63 Indeed, the demand for slaves insured that slaving flourished, and Arab amirs in the western Maghrib (Algeria) in the early eighth century persisted in regarding Berbers, even Muslim Berbers, as slave potential.
[…]
Two well-known and specific incidents of enslaving Muslim Berbers were recorded in the western Maghrib. One involved the ill-advised attempt by a newly appointed amir of Tangier to tattoo the hands of his predecessor's Berber guard. The guard viewed this order as a humiliation, tantamount to enslavement, and promptly revolted.64 The other involved a governor of Tangier who ignored the Muslim status of his Berber subjects and levied a fifth, or state's booty (khams), consisting of the city's people.65 This outrage raised a storm of protest from the population, who even dispatched a fruitless delegation to the caliph.66 The revolt that ensued in 73961 was the first uprising with a specific Kharijite association, and it also marked the earliest stirrings of what soon became the Ibadd revolt in the central Maghrib.
[…]
While there were subsequent instances of Berber enslavement by Aghlabid and even Fatimid generals in the ninth and tenth centuries,68 such seizures were the sporadic and harsh consequences of revolt rather than the deliberate hunting for Berber slaves. There were, of course, motives other than quotas and personal profits behind the round-ups of Berber slaves. Governors throughout the Maghrib may have been attempting to force the Berber tribes into submission and so enhance their own reputation as loyal servants in the eyes of the caliph by continually forwarding tribute.69.
[…]
The crisis came when the 'Abbasid Abu Ja'far al-Mansfir became caliph (754) and the governor 'Abd al-Rahman b. Habib failed to send the customary gift of slaves with his oath of loyalty, bai'a. Since Ifriqiya had become completely Muslim, he explained, it could no longer be a source of slaves, and thus the caliph must not expect what could no longer be had.77 The caliph's reply was menacing; 'Abd al-Rahman's days were numbered.78 Ifrlqiya, no longer able to supply the oriental demand, was a region stripped of its chief resource, and 'Abd al-Rahman b. al-Habib's authority as governor of Ifriqiya collapsed in 756. Consequently, by the time the 'Abbasid general Muhammad Ibn al-Ash'ath was sent to recover the situation in 762-3, Berber and Ibadi interests were tightly.
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@Ish Geber It seems you post informations without checking them.
Yes many berbers at some point got enslaved but what does this have to do with the topic ? I already adressed the question of white slaves and you further confirm what I posted since your quote highlight what I said about christian captives being purchased by christian associations. Anyway white slaves won't change the fact that most slaves in North Africa were from sub-saharan africa and the trans-saharan slave lasted far longer and involved way more people.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Ish Geber It seems you post informations without checking them.
Yes many berbers at some point got enslaved but what does this have to do with the topic ? I already adressed the question of white slaves and you further confirm what I posted since your quote highlight what I said about christian captives being purchased by christian associations. Anyway white slaves won't change the fact that most slaves in North Africa were from sub-saharan africa and the trans-saharan slave lasted far longer and involved way more people.
There may have been a significant amount of enslaved people from further south.
But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints.
There are no evidence of this except for the Sahara but that's not where most north africans used to live and a "black" phenotype like the imported west african slaves wouldn't even make sense in regards to the environnement in which north africans evolved.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints.
There are no evidence of this except for the Sahara but that's not where most north africans used to live and a "black" phenotype like the imported west african slaves wouldn't even make sense in regards to the environnement in which north africans evolved.
Science disagrees with you. You do understand that part of West Africa is Sahara region, which is connected to the Sahel region.
Libyco-Chadic is older than Berber-Chadic. And Chadic itself is older than Berber.
"Lakeside cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 years of Holocene population and environmental change"
Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations : Ater , Aterian; EMC , eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI , eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e , Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m , Gobero mid- Holocene; Mali , Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur , Mauritania; WMC , western Maghreb Capsian; WMI , western Maghreb Iberomaurusian. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006
Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa (2011)
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You're quite predictible posting a bait then spamming off-topic stuff... anyway none of what you posted contradict what I said and the trans-saharan slave trade occured during the medieval era so provide evidence of large amount of indigenous "black" north africans in the mediterranean area during that time period.
Here to put you in the historical context :
quote:This essay examines Ahmad Baba’s efforts to persuade Maghribi scholars to accept the Islamic status of self-professed Muslims in West Africa and to reject racial slavery. Towards this end, Ahmad Baba wrote a legal treatise that suggested that Northwest Africans were illegally enslaving West Africans on the basis of race. This treatise, entitled Mi‘raj al-Su‘ud, drew upon a century of jurisprudence produced in Timbuktu and set Islamic standards for enslavement that defined as illicit a substantial portion of the slave trade as it then existed.
quote:By the ninth century, Muslim geographers regularly described sub-Saharan Africans as ‘Black’ (Sudan) as opposed to ‘White’ (Bidan) North African and Mediterranean peoples. These geographers also regularly identified ‘Black’ Africans as descendants of the cursed and enslaved son of Ham.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: You're quite predictible posting a bait then spamming off-topic stuff... anyway none of what you posted contradict what I said and the trans-saharan slave trade occured during the medieval era so provide evidence of large amount of indigenous "black" north africans in the mediterranean area during that time period.
Here to put you in the historical context :
quote:This essay examines Ahmad Baba’s efforts to persuade Maghribi scholars to accept the Islamic status of self-professed Muslims in West Africa and to reject racial slavery. Towards this end, Ahmad Baba wrote a legal treatise that suggested that Northwest Africans were illegally enslaving West Africans on the basis of race. This treatise, entitled Mi‘raj al-Su‘ud, drew upon a century of jurisprudence produced in Timbuktu and set Islamic standards for enslavement that defined as illicit a substantial portion of the slave trade as it then existed.
quote:By the ninth century, Muslim geographers regularly described sub-Saharan Africans as ‘Black’ (Sudan) as opposed to ‘White’ (Bidan) North African and Mediterranean peoples. These geographers also regularly identified ‘Black’ Africans as descendants of the cursed and enslaved son of Ham.
And how does all this refute what I have posted? The short answer is. It doesn't. All it does is maintain your own circular argument.
You are basically telling that there was no activities going on over the last thousands of years in the Sahara Sahel zone. Until people from the North of Africa magically appeared, traveled down and started to enslave people. As if enslaving people (human trafficking) is an accomplishment to brag about and over.
quote:not all of the black african population are gnawa.
(Deborah Anne Kapchan, Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace, Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19)
quote:“Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
(Nick Brooks et al., The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone")
quote:“The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations.
Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries.
The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa.
In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.”
(Eliška Podgorná et al., The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup, Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013)
quote:“Meanwhile, in the Western Sahara, Joel Irish’s (2005) dental study, of 671 individuals spanning the Late Pleistocene through to the Christian periods, reveals a break in population continuity between the Pleistocene (Jebel Sahaba) and the Final Neolithic (Gebel Ramlah, dating to the first half of the fifth millennium BC) samples. The dental traits from Jebel Sahaba align more closely with modern sub-Saharan populations, while Gebel Ramlah and later align closer to Egypt specifically and to the Sahara in general.
Irish’s results are particularly informative in light of his earlier study of the human mortuary remains from Nabta Playa (Irish, 2001). Analyses of dental and osseous non-metric traits exhibit both sub-Saharan and North African linkages, with cranial morphologies yielding a similar result.
Taken together, the unexplored potential of the data from Saharan isotopic, genetic and skeletal studies lays in demonstrating the degree to which populations grade into each other, as well as intra- and inter-regional patterns of interactions and integration.”
(Michael Brass, Reconsidering the emergence of social complexity in early Saharan pastoral societies, 5000 – 2500 B.C., Sahara (Segrate). 2007 May 1; 18: 7–22)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: And how does all this refute what I have posted? The short answer is. It doesn't. All it does is maintain your own circular argument.
You are basically telling that there was no activities going on over the last thousands of years in the Sahara Sahel zone. Until people from the North of Africa magically appeared, traveled down and started to enslave people. As if enslaving people (human trafficking) is an accomplishment to brag about and over.
??? I see a straw man argument here... I never said anything in regards to a lack of activity in the sahara or sahel and why do you imply only north africans were involved in this trade ? These blacks were captured and enslaved first by black muslims who then sold them to maghrebi merchants in cities like Timbuktu, Gao, Aoudaghost, etc
Anyway you said : "But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints." I asked you to provide evidence of medieval mediterranean north africans being black.
Again :
quote:In the Kitab al-Istiqsa, for example, al-Nasiri complained that ‘many common folk believe that the reason for being enslaved according to the Shari‘a is merely that a man should be Black and come from those [Sudanic] regions’ (Hunwick 2000, 138–139).
quote:The black populations of West Africa, Islamisized or not, became the targeted slave pool for North Africans. Arab-Berber white Muslims in the Maghreb have utilised a number of arguments – racist and religious at the same time – to justify the enslavement of Blacks, even converted Blacks. They forged a racial slavery from the centuries of writings of the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence that reigns in North Africa (Ould Ciré 2014). They exploited the Hamatic myth to justify the eternal slavery of black people (Hunwick 1999).
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: And how does all this refute what I have posted? The short answer is. It doesn't. All it does is maintain your own circular argument.
You are basically telling that there was no activities going on over the last thousands of years in the Sahara Sahel zone. Until people from the North of Africa magically appeared, traveled down and started to enslave people. As if enslaving people (human trafficking) is an accomplishment to brag about and over.
??? I see a straw man argument here... I never said anything in regards to a lack of activity in the sahara or sahel and why do you imply only north africans were involved in this trade ? These blacks were captured and enslaved first by black muslims who then sold them to maghrebi merchants in cities like Timbuktu, Gao, Aoudaghost, etc
Anyway you said : "But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints." I asked you to provide evidence of medieval mediterranean north africans being black.
Again :
quote:In the Kitab al-Istiqsa, for example, al-Nasiri complained that ‘many common folk believe that the reason for being enslaved according to the Shari‘a is merely that a man should be Black and come from those [Sudanic] regions’ (Hunwick 2000, 138–139).
quote:The black populations of West Africa, Islamisized or not, became the targeted slave pool for North Africans. Arab-Berber white Muslims in the Maghreb have utilised a number of arguments – racist and religious at the same time – to justify the enslavement of Blacks, even converted Blacks. They forged a racial slavery from the centuries of writings of the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence that reigns in North Africa (Ould Ciré 2014). They exploited the Hamatic myth to justify the eternal slavery of black people (Hunwick 1999).
And how does the above in your circular babble refute that Africans from further south already inhabited the North?
In your delusional mind it took people from the North to magically appear in the South of the Sahara, wihle those in the south of the Sahara weren't able to travel up north. In your mind that is.
quote:Greeks have a Sub-Saharan gene input according to HLA and other autosomic markers. Iberians, Canarians, and North Africans show a close genetic relatedness. This is concordant with a drying humid Sahara Desert, which may have occurred about 6,000 years BC, and the subsequent northwards emigration of Saharan people may have also happened in Pharaonic times. Present study confirms this African gene input in Greeks according to 12th HLA International Workshop data, which was studied some years before by us.
quote:Evidence increasingly suggests that sub-Saharan Africa is at the center of human evolution and understanding routes of dispersal “out of Africa” is thus becoming increasingly important. The Sahara Desert is considered by many to be an obstacle to these dispersals and a Nile corridor route has been proposed to cross it. Here we provide evidence that the Sahara was not an effective barrier and indicate how both animals and humans populated it during past humid phases. Analysis of the zoogeography of the Sahara shows that more animals crossed via this route than used the Nile corridor. Furthermore, many of these species are aquatic
Late Pleistocene and early Holocene palaeohydrology and biogeography of the Sahara (∼11 to 8 ka). (A) Biogeographic provinces for the African fish species are indicated (1 Sudanian, 2 Upper Guinean, 3 Eburneo-Guinean, 4 Lower Guinean, 5 Congo, 6 Maghrebian) along with the distribution of Tilapia zillii, both recently, as indicated by the hatched area and from marking the location of Saharan refuges, and during the Holocene, as indicated by fossils and rock art. A trans-Sahara distribution is evident, both across the Sahara and down the Nile. (B) Distribution of Hippopotamus amphibious both historically (∼1 ka) as shown by the hatched area and during the Holocene by marking the location of older historical sightings, fossils, and rock art. A distribution restricted to the River Nile and the southern-central Sahara is evident.
(Nick A. Drake et al., Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: And how does the above in your circular babble refute that Africans from further south already inhabited the North?
In your delusional mind it took people from the North to magically appear in the South of the Sahara, wihle those in the south of the Sahara weren't able to travel up north. In your mind that is.
Again we're talking about the medieval era so if you think that some unknown black populations cross the sahara during that time period and settled in mediterranean north africa provide evidence of it pls.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: And how does the above in your circular babble refute that Africans from further south already inhabited the North?
In your delusional mind it took people from the North to magically appear in the South of the Sahara, wihle those in the south of the Sahara weren't able to travel up north. In your mind that is.
Again we're talking about the medieval era so if you think that some unknown black populations cross the sahara during that time period and settled in mediterranean north africa provide evidence of it pls.
From the start I told that I am not talking about that period. I am emphasizing on the fact the people from the south of the Sahara already inhabited the North.
quote:We also find sub-Saharan gene-flow from the Senegambia region in the Canary Islands. […] However, the sub-Saharan gene-flow into North Africa is high and has been continuous through time, which makes it difficult to discern whether the Senegambia component was already present in North Africa before the first colonization of the Islands or whether it arrived later on. […] The genome-wide study of Fiorito et al. [28] performed admixture analyses in a large-scale Italian dataset, and highlighted more complex events of admixture than the one described herein in Tuscany. Specifically, they described continuous gene-flow from different sources since 3000 ya, which could be the result of their more geographically diverse sample set relative to our geographically localized sample of Tuscany.
(Lara R. Arauna , Garrett Hellenthal and David Comas, Dissecting human North African gene-flow into its western coastal surroundings, Published:01 May 2019)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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From the start I told that I am not talking about that period. I am emphasizing on the fact the people from the south of the Sahara already inhabited the North.
That's your first post on this thread :
you then implied in your second post that it was simply blacks enslaving other blacks again : " But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints."
I asked you to provide a single evidence of this and you couldn't provide it instead you posted stuff related to prehistory. It seems like you don't really know much about the population history of north africa.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Somebody hit me up on some Bertholon&Chantre(1913) on ancient Mediterranean Carthage skeletons like
quote:Some characters possess marked Negroid traits. And such are not always persons of no importance. Indeed the celebrated priestess of Tanit showed numerous Negroid traits, * marked prognathism * flat, wide nose * long forearm and had the physical traits of the Neolithic Negroes ...'
.
Ratzel(1896-9) said
quote:Negroes crossed the Alps with Hannibaal and fell at Worth beside McMahon. Whateve their original nature may have been all this populatiom must have been alloyed with a strong Ethiopian element... The entire Semitic and Hamitic population of Africa has, in other words, a mulatto character which extends to the Semites outside Africa
.
As I've repeatedly posted supra-Sahra Africa had its own indigenous types of blacks who were obviously descended from northbound Sudanese-Sahrans of the drying Neolithic Sahra 'green paradise' mixing with Neolthic Gafsian (Capsian) Sahrans who were the most numerous type of North Africans. The southbound Neolithic Sudanes-Sahrans contrastingly birthed Sahel to Gulf of Guinea sub-Sahra west of Bilma Trail Africans. Those who never left Tropical North Africa at the end of the Neolithic became the blacks of the oases.
All of that wass well before the Islamic trans-Sahra slave trade supplied by Sahel&Savanna empires and kingdoms.
In fact we find Africa's whites pushed the majority but not all ancient Morocco, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and Mauritania blacks ever southward. Of course this long after Ethiopians (simply meaning blacks) overran pre-Sahara and north Sahara Africa as Strabo quoting Ephorus' report reminds us
quote: "that Æthiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board."
PS: Only illogical, close-minded, one-sided, melanophobe propaganda pushers lacking university education ignore or try to downplay the above well credited facts. I will not acknowledge any such ones with any dialog as my goal is to further educate those capable of learning not to debate logical fallacy employing ignoramuses with axes to grind. One can go no further north than Carthage in ancient NW Tunisia with its blacks as per credentialed Bertholon (link)&Chantre (link) used in peer reviewed or university published studies like Keita(2018), JM Saliba(2010), FJ Simoons(1981). No childish self-authoritative two sentence presumed 'rebuttal' can trump this post. I am your superior, period. A proper rebuttal must take each point one by one and show them in error using university approved methodologies not barking orders as if addressing a slave or inferior. BTW "old is good."
posted
I already acknowledged the presence of indigenous black communities in the sahara and its northern fringe but there are no evidence of an indigenous black element in mediterranean north africa where most north africans lived and where most of the empires/kingdoms appeared.
Also provide reliable sources not some dubious XIXth early XXth century sources. I already made threads about the biological affinities of ancient north africans (including punics) here and herePosts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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From the start I told that I am not talking about that period. I am emphasizing on the fact the people from the south of the Sahara already inhabited the North.
That's your first post on this thread :
... you then implied in your second post that it was simply blacks enslaving other blacks again : " But that doesn't mean there was already a significant amount of people there with similar traits and genetics prints."
I asked you to provide a single evidence of this and you couldn't provide it instead you posted stuff related to prehistory. It seems like you don't really know much about the population history of north africa.
Not sure what you are babbling now, but these are the first posts I am referring at:
quote: In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
(Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104)
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: I already acknowledged the presence of indigenous black communities in the sahara and its northern fringe but there are no evidence of an indigenous black element in mediterranean north africa where most north africans lived and where most of the empires/kingdoms appeared.
Also provide reliable sources not some dubious XIXth early XXth century sources. I already made threads about the biological affinities of ancient north africans (including punics) here and here
And...
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The presence of African individuals in Punic populations from the Island of Ibiza (Spain): contributions from physical anthropology
Relief block with the heads of three Libyans Period: New Kingdom, Amarna Period Dynasty: Dynasty 18 Date: ca. 1353–1323 B.C. Geography: From Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Karnak Medium: Sandstone, paint Credit Line: Gift of Ernst E. Kofler, 1965 Accession Number: 65.100.1
quote:The sidelocks of the people on this relief block identify the men as Libyans. They need not be prisoners but could be members of the Egyptian army or envoys at a festival. As usual with sandstone relief pieces the block was part of a temple decoration at Karnak.
(Metmuseum)
(British Museum, This decorative tile from a royal palace made between 1184 and 1153 BC and found in Tell el-Yahudiyah shows a Libyan captive).
(A bronze statuette of an ancient Libyan, Louvre museum. Oric Bates "thinks" it represents a Libyan from the Meshwesh tribe (?). It appears that the statuette once had the usual Libyan beard.)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Again, a new article by Lucas-Sanchez et al. highlights the impact of the trans-Saharan slave trade and interestingly shows that, in the case of Morocco, this component is of Senegambian origin, while in Tunisia it is of East African origin (dinka, Luhya, etc) :
quote:Our analyses show evidence for two regions of origin of the admixing source coming from south of the Sahara: (1) a Western-like source present in all individuals (similar to current-day Senegambian populations), and (2) an Eastern-like source present only in Tunisians with > 50% of sub-Saharan-like ancestry (similar to current-day populations from the south-Sudan-Kenya region).
They also highlight that most of it came during the Middle Ages and is not indigenous to the area :
quote:Specific dates differ among publications, covering the mentioned periods and spanning from the ninth (Henn et al. 2012) to the thirteenth, seventeenth, and nineteenth centuries CE (Arauna et al. 2017) depending on the samples studied. Nevertheless, they all agree with a recent slave-trade related admixture that has probably been continuous in the last few centuries. The recent estimation dates of these migrations are also supported by the large amount of variation of the sub-Saharan-like ancestry among the studied samples and the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) evidence, which shows a specific connection between haplogroups present in North Africa and the known trans-Saharan slave routes during the times of the Arab expansion (Harich et al. 2010). The spread of sub-Saharan genetic influence did not always stop in North Africa, as sub-Saharan-like ancestry coming from gene flow with North Africa has been described in European and Middle Eastern populations (Moorjani et al. 2011).
quote: [...] thus corroborating that the sub-Saharan-like genetic component in current North Africans is related to a recent admixture event and discarding main contributions from older trans-Saharan gene flow events.
posted
This whole idea of a great number of Africans being enslaved by the Arabs lacks congruence.The original Arabs themselves, were Blacks, so they had little interest in females. The Iranian and Syrian-Iraqi "white Arabs", may have been interested in some SSA females. But, it is clear that most of the African slaves sold in the Arab World were males.
IN relation to North Africa there was a greater importation of Ukranian women into the area by Arab and Ottoman slavers than Sub-Saharan Africans. It is sad people continue to ignore the fact that many of the same people who lived in North Africa, lived in Sub-SAharan Africa; while ignoring the fact that white Arabs and Caucasians began entering Egypt with the invasion of the Sea People, and continued up to the Syrian Arabs, Vandals and Turk migrations accross North Africa.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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[QUOTE] that according to Michael McCormick this trade was the Origins of the European Economy well, more precisely, the origin of the western european economy . McCormick argues that the export of SLAVIC slaves played a primary, but not exclusive, role in securing the privileged economic position of Western Europe going into the late middle ages and beyond. The fact the west did /QUOTE]
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
@yatunde stop being in denial : in comparison to black slaves, the quantity of European slaves exported to the Maghreb was relatively small, and the majority of them were men, which meant they were unable to marry local women.
Compare the numbers :
and european slaves
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @yatunde stop being in denial : in comparison to black slaves, the quantity of European slaves exported to the Maghreb was relatively small, and the majority of them were men, which meant they were unable to marry local women.
Compare the numbers :
and european slaves
These are all guesses. There is no official documents to support any of these claims.
The book you cite appears to be propaganda. Eurocentrists are always trying to play down the Atlantic Slave trade.
The West Africa trade was mainly for salt and gold. Why would they need millions of Africans when they didn't have any industries for them to labor. When we do hear about large numbers of slaves they are involved in public work activities or the military.
These writers are mainly talking about Western European Christians, the majority of slaves in the Muslim world were sold by Turks, i.e., Slavs. As a result, The usual concubines in North Africa were white women. . t
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