This is topic Depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners and Aegeans in forum Deshret at EgyptSearch Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=012935

Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Alright, I recently did a topic on the colorized depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners on Egyptsearch Reloaded, so if you want to check it out click on this link:
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/3010/depictions-ancient-middle-easterners-aegeans

The reason I am bringing this topic here to Egyptsearch is present the Middle Easterners that really don’t get get a lot of attention from mainstream academia in the West, especially in regards to colorized images. From what I witnessed personally, most depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners that are commonly shown a lot are Egyptian tiles, which depicts bound Asiatics captives with a pasty yellowish complexion, plus the bound Libyan (Temehu) captive, which most people in the mainstream enjoy promoting as the indigenous Amazigh, instead of being a representative of a Sea person, that adopted the ways of the Libyans (Tehenu, Meshwesh, and Temehu). Along with mind you the black skinned Nubian captive.
 -

The three other tiles which depicts the Asiatics are identified as being a North Syrian, Shasu Bedouin, Hittite in respectable order from left to right.

While these images get a lot of press and attention from academics and those observing depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners (this goes for both Eurocentric minds and Afrocentric minds) this image, this time a tile depicting a bound Philistine captive rarely gets any attention at all.

 -

Another thing that is rarely talked about is regarding how Ancient Middle Easterners were portrayed, for example the Egyptian mural that have been dubbed “The Races of Mankind” are very much a favorite for Eurocentrists and Afrocentrists alike. The image that we are usually showed, that is the recreation, are the depiction of four different colorized men. The Ancient Egyptians are portrayed as a reddish brown complexion, the Nubians are portrayed with a jet-black complexion, the Asiatics are depicted with an light brownish complexion, while the Libyans are portrayed as fair skinned. This is generally a tactic for Euro-centered folk to use when attempting to disprove the Ancient Egyptians race, by blindly presenting the jet-black Nubians as being the example of the Black African or “True Negro” and the Ancient Egyptians as mixed race, despite the fact that Asiatics are portrayed much lighter than the Ancient Egyptians. Another tactic Euro-centered people use is the fair skinned Libyans as being representations of the Ancient Libyans. While this is a tactic for Euro-centered people, Afro-centered folks aren’t spared for from this. For someone that is proving the race of the Ancient Egyptians they generally show off the light brown Asiatics and the reddish brown Egyptians, showing the differences in complexion of the two. Suggesting that the Egyptians were typically lighter in complexion to their Nubian (assuming representatives of South Sudan) counterparts, but it is really the Asiatics who were mixed race. While this explained, they remain quite about the fair skinned Libyans, again this is from personal experience.

 -

The depiction of the mural that we are all shown

As both groups are generally using this recreation as evidence for their arguments, both groups, especially the Afro-centered people still don’t see the bigger picture. While this recreation get tossed around the internet, the actual mural gets ignored.

 -

Now some might ask why your presenting the damaged mural, the recreation is exactly the same and it shows how the Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves and foreigners. Yes, themselves and the Nubians, not the Asiatics and Libyans, however. The original mural shows a different picture showing the Libyans being entirely wiped off the wall, presumably due to damage over millennia, while the Asiatics, Egyptians, and Nubians are still seen at face value. But the Asiatics skin are bleached out. One of the Asiatics body is entirely bleached, while the other is partially bleached out.

 -

Screenshot of one of the Asiatics not entirely bleached

As you can see, when we look at this Asiatic up close, you can see that his head is much darker than the rest of his body. This mural was the main focus of debate over proving the race of the Ancient Egyptians, by both Afrocentrists and Eurocentrists, especially regarding the Asiatics and what made them distinct. But surprisingly enough the Asiatics might have been a little much darker, despite the bleached out skin and reconstruction, hell it possible that even the Libyans were much darker than we see now, especially since the Libyans are wiped off the wall. Interesting how few people ever sees this.

Now we are all aware about the Hyksos or ”Aamu”, the Shepherd Kings that ruled Egypt. From most depictions by the Ancient Egyptians most people usually seem to see them as typically like this:

 -

Now keep in mind there’s really nothing wrong with this portrait, as this is usually the images that put fourth, so it is typical to take at face value as being the representatives of Middle Easterners in general, right. But what people generally don’t know is that there many depictions of the Aamu being portrayed much darker and generally the same complexion as their Egyptian counterparts. From the little research I did on the Aamu they can be regarded as a people of mixed origin, given that they borrowed cultural elements from Northern folk who generally were part of the Indo-European family. Hyksos chiefs who were mentioned by the Ancient Egyptians had names that correlate with the Indo-European family. But with all cultural borrowing, although it suggests some correlation with mixed peoples it doesn’t reflect the entire population, especially depictions such as these of these of the Hyksos.

 -

A depiction of King Tutankhamen on his wooden chest, portrayed trampling to death the Aamu, “Vile Asiatics” in a victorious battle

Amazing how both the Egyptians and the Hyksos are depicted with the exact same hue. From my understanding of this, there are only two conclusions of this, that is either both populations are racially mixed or that the Hyksos originally resembled the aboriginal stock that was present in the Levant, or at least were descendants of aboriginal population that would later mixed with another group of people to become the Hyksos, which I doubt, by evidence of this. It is my opinion that at certain time periods they intermixed with fairer Northern migrants borrowing some cultural elements, eventually becoming somewhat of a mixed crowd, becoming somewhat of a spectrum, but at the very least were more black skinned or dark skinned, the same way Northern folks such as the famous Greeks were more fair skinned than Black skinned. Basically containing their archaic features and indigenous complexion, as this image seems to be the case.
 -

Aamu warriors getting trampled to death

So, as a dedication to the lost faces of the Ancient World that the have been purposely ignore by “Western Academia”, this thread is to show the darker side of the Middle East. Feel free to chime in, if you got some great images of Ancient Middle Easterners. I would also use portraits from areas with an historic presence of Ancient Middle Easterners, such as the Italian peninsula, in regards to the Etruscans and their mixed heritage. I would also used non-colorized depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners, generally those with a obvious aboriginal phenotype.

Disclaimer: Images would be identified entirely, if one would like to make contribution to this thread please identify the following depiction’s ethnic background. Most images of Middle Easterners would include a variety of art from different eras. Depictions will include those done by the Ancient Egyptians, Greco-Roman era depictions of Middle Easterners, and depictions done by Middle Easterners themselves.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Beni-Hassan-Asiatiques1.jpg

A screenshot of a portrait depicting the Aamu “Hyksos“ and the Egyptians, from the Beni Hasan burial site, which shows the diversity of the Hyksos either through intermixing or simple just natural reflection of their arid environment, similar to complexions such as the Habashi and Khoi San who both have a honey brown complexion, or simply both have the same merit.

 -

A closeup of Aamu women inside the Tomb

http://www.asor.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Figure-1-1024x667.jpg

A close up of some Aamu men

 -

An image on Tutankhamen’s wooden chest portraying Tutankhamen as a Griffin, trampling on an Asiatic and Nubian foe to death

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/03/4c/b6/034cb61dbfff0fbcdb4f5d72b0f90048.jpg

Another image on Tutankhamen’s wooden chest portraying the boy king, this time as a Sphinx, again stomping on the heads of his enemies

 -

Depiction of bound Libyan, Nubian, and Asiatic captives on King Tutankhamen’s footstool

(Edit) The entire depiction of the bound Libyan, Nubian, and Asiatic captives

Update 11/3/19

 -
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ note, images too big for forum format changed to URL

lioness, moderator
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Umm, ok. My pictures weren’t really that big and this thread is about posting pictures, so editing what I just posted is kind of pointless.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
More to come....

 -

A stelle of a Canaanite mercenary drinking beer, while his son serves him and his wife looks on

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/egyptian-glazed-relief-of-a-nubian-slave-from-a-temple-of-rameses-iii-picture-id501585765

Head of a Bedouin

 -

Heads of a Nubian and two Bedouins

 -

A statuette of a bound Semitic slave


 -

Syrians paying tribute and homage

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/2e/46/1b2e46f77ca0e35bc3b1e9db936c7829.jpg

A Asiatic and two Nubian ambassadors paying homage to the Pharaoh
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

Reconstruction portrait of Aegeans paying tribute from the Tomb Amenmose

(Edit) Part of a mural depicting a battle, from the same Tomb

Update 12/5/19

 -

 -

A Melanosyri “Black Syrian” and a Leucosyri “White Syrian” paying tribute from the Tomb of Menkheperre

(Edit) Another depiction of a Melanosyri and a Leucosyri paying tribute

Update 12/5/19

 -

(Edit) More depictions of Leucosyri and some Melanosyri Tributaries

Update 12/5/19

 -

 -

A screenshot of a Mesopotamian tributary

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-57627247a819528f7aa48dc343dd62ca

A wall portrait of Akkadian men from King Zimri-Lim’s Royal Palace in Mari city-state, Syria

http://spiritualpilgrim.net/pictures/00_Ancient-Civilization/2040-1870-BC_Palace-of-Zimri-Lim_Priest-Guiding-a-Sacrificial-Bull.jpg

A wall portrait of an Akkadian priest sacrificing a Bull, from same site in Mari, Syria
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n01.jpg/1280px-Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n01.jpg

The famous mural inside the Royal Palace, “Investiture of Zimri-Lim” depicting King Zimri-Lim receiving the symbols of rule from Mesopotamian Goddess of love, fertility, and political power, Ishtar

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n02.jpg/1280px-Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n02.jpg

Screenshot of a central part of the scenery

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n04.jpg/1280px-Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n04.jpg

A screenshot of a Mesopotamian deity dispensing water from a vase

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n03.jpg/1280px-Investiture_of_Zimri-Lim_Louvre_AO19826_n03.jpg

Another screenshot of the mural, depicting a winged Lion

 -

A reconstruction of the Investiture of Zimri-Lim
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A depiction of a bound captive Peityu-shu, from Desert of the East, from the tomb of Senaa

 -

A depiction of bound captive from Aegean isles or near the Eastern Mediterranean, from the same site

 -

Sea peoples of Levantine, Aegean, and Libyan origin marching into captivity

https://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Crete-Keiftu-Tribute-to-Rekhmire.jpg

A screenshot of a mural portraying Aegean/Keftiu “Minoan” tribute bearers, from the Tomb of Rekhmire

 -

A closeup of one of the Aegean/Keftiu tribute bearers from the above image

 -

Another close up of two of the Aegean/Keftiu tribute bearers from above image

 -

A depiction of two more Aegean/Keftiu tribute bearers, presumably from the Tomb of Menkheperre

(Edit) The entire depiction of the Aegean/Keftiu bearers

Update 12/5/19

 -

 -

Another screenshot of two other Aegean/Keftiu tribute bearers, from the Tomb of Rekhmire
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A relief of an Assyrian soldier marching two Hebrews into exile from the city of Lachish

 -

A relief depicting Hebrew men being escorted by Assyrian soldiers out of the city

 -

A relief portraying Hebrew women being sent into exile

 -

A relief portraying four Hebrew musicians with dread locks

Since there are few images portraying the Ancient Hebrews in color, I thought it would be best to show what they look like from the most art common style out there, before I show what seems to be the only representation of the Ancient Hebrew before the current era, in the world.

 -

(Edit) This is actually a reconstruction of a fresco of the Assyrian King, Tiglath Pileser III smiting or executing a Hebrew captive

Update 9/28/19

Here is entire or at least part of the fresco missing, I just recently found online.

 -

 -

Here is another colorized depiction of the Hebrews. The four Hebrew musicians above have also been surprisingly colorized
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Baalberith I have changed some of your pictures to URL, they are too big for the forum format

Please resize so there is little or no side scrolling,thanks
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
More colorless depictions of Middle Easterners

 -

A moulded clay brick panel of a Elamite Goddess

 -

Another moulded clay brick relief of a Elamite God

(Edit) Screehshot of another moulded clay brick relief of an Elamite God

Update 11/3/19
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/35/e8/7d/35e87d492435bd8cd8fb2bc8e37f518a.jpg

(Edit) A screenshot of an Elamite King or Priest

Update 11/3/19
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/c4/e0/1ec4e01086040bf6115b3724eb4ae879.jpg

 -

A relief of Elamite men celebrating

 -

The same relief depicting Elamite women and children celebrating

 -

(Edit) A depiction of an Elamite Priestess

Update 11/3/19

 -

A relief of a Elamite archer

(Edit) a depiction of an Elamite girl holding a vase

Update 11/3/19

 -

(Edit) A depiction of an Elamite Goddess

Update 11/3/19

 -
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Colorized images of the Elamites

 -

Part of a mural of Elamite soldiers of the Achaemenid Empire in Susa, Iran


 -

Screenshot image of a Elamite soldier on a different part of the mural

 -

Another screenshot of a Elamite soldier

 -

Part of a mural showing a Sphinx found in the palace of Darius the great, at same site as Elamite soldiers

 -

The entire mural of two Sphinx facing away from each other at the same site
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A jar fragment of a Canaanite woman

 -

A jar fragment of a Canaanite man

 -

A mask of a Phoenician from Canaan

 -

A mask of a Phoenician from Carthage

 -

A bust of a Phoenician supposedly found in Carthage
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Greco-Roman era depictions of Middle Easterners

 -

A fresco of Biblical character Samson killing a lion from catacomb della Via Latina in Rome

 -

The original “Last Supper” from Roman catacomb

http://solarey.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Good_shepherd_01_small.jpg

The “Good Shepherd” inside catacomb

 -

Screenshot of a fresco of Jesu of Nazareth inside catacomb

 -

A fresco of a Holy man inside Dura-Europos Synagogue in Syria

 -

A fresco of Biblical character Moses leading the exodus out of Egypt by crossing the Red Sea, inside Duras-Europos Synagogue

 -

A fresco of Moses and the burning bush at Duras-Europos
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
More Greco-Roman era depictions of Middle Easterners

 -

A screenshot of part of a fresco depicting Chief Priest Conon making a sacrifice on behalf for a family, famously dubbed “The Sacrifice of Conon”, from the Duras-Europos Temple of the the Palmyrene Gods, before....

 -

The fresco after

 -

A fresco in Jerusalem, depicting Biblical character Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

This is a depiction of three Chaldean soldiers with Hebrew captives, from a Byzantine illuminated manuscript called the Bristol Psalter, circa 11th century

 -

A screenshot of Joseph being sold into slavery to the Ishamaelites, by his brothers

 -

Two Ziphites before Biblical character King Saul, from manuscript

 -

A depiction of David getting captured by the Philistines in the town of Gath

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1251-3.jpg

A depiction of Biblical character David slaying the Philistine giant Goliath

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/1251-4.jpg

David cutting off the head of Goliath

 -

Another depiction of King David in some sort of pose

 -

David being crowned King of Israel

 -

A depiction of King David with a group of musicians

 -

Another depiction of King David kneeling to the Prophet Nathan, as he delivers a message to him
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

The Prophet Isaiah in prayer accompanied by the personifications of Night and Dawn

 -

The three Magi delivering gifts to baby Christ

 -

A depiction of Christ with his Disciples and their entry into the gates of Jerusalem

 -

A screenshot of Peter depicting him weeping after denying Christ three times

 -

A depiction of of a beggar in misery

 -

A depiction of two Hebrews planning dinner
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

Fragment of a mural depicting a Arab King of the Kingdom of Kindah

 -

A portrait of two Kindite Arabs

 -

A Byzantine depiction of Ummayyads leader Maslama ibn Abdal- Malik with his Arabian warriors

 -

A Medieval European portrait from a Church in Estonia, depicting shipwrecked Saracens “Arabs” encountering Slavonic Christians, then converting to Christianity after being saved by the Archangel Michael
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
While these images get a lot of press and attention from academics and those observing depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners(this goes for both Eurocentric minds and Afrocentric minds) this image, this time a tile depicting a bound Philistine captive rarely gets any attention at all.

Literally all of these images have been shown and addressed on Egyptsearch.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
While these images get a lot of press and attention from academics and those observing depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners(this goes for both Eurocentric minds and Afrocentric minds) this image, this time a tile depicting a bound Philistine captive rarely gets any attention at all.

Literally all of these images have been shown and addressed on Egyptsearch.
Ish Gebor, this thread is supposed to be about presenting depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners, if you have something you like to share post it right here.
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
While these images get a lot of press and attention from academics and those observing depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners(this goes for both Eurocentric minds and Afrocentric minds) this image, this time a tile depicting a bound Philistine captive rarely gets any attention at all.

Literally all of these images have been shown and addressed on Egyptsearch.
Ish Gebor, this thread is supposed to be about presenting depictions of Ancient Middle Easterners, if you have something you like to share post it right here.
quote:
“Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population.

Under these suppositions, the Arabian Peninsula, as an obliged step between East Africa and South Asia, has gained crucial importance, and indeed several mtDNA studies have recently been published for this region [30-32]. However, it seems that the bulk of the Arab mtDNA lineages have northern Neolithic or more recent Asian or African origins...”

--Khaled K Abu-Amero et al., (2008)
Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula


quote:
“Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants

3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.”

--Viktor Černý1 et al., (2009)

Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 8/30/19

Just found some more wonderful images of Ancient Middle Easterner, that I thought might post here, well here it is.

 -

A perfectly preserved relief of a Libyan, a Canaanite, a Syian and a Nubian bowing

https://www.akg-images.co.uk/archive/-2UMDHUHGNZFA.html

A worn off relief Syrians and Libyans war prisoners bowing, from the tomb of the viceroy Biban el-Mumuk


 -

A worn off relief of some Syrian captives being marched by the Ancient Egyptians, from the tomb of Horemheb

 -

Another worn off relief from the same tomb

https://c7.alamy.com/compes/ayybcn/general-horemheb-fue-el-ultimo-faraon-de-la-decimoctava-dinastia-del-antiguo-egipto-desde-1319-ac-hasta-finales-de-1292-bc-ayybcn.jpg

A snapshot of an Syrian captive, from the tomb

 -

A colorless relief of Syrian, Nubian, and Libyan Princes paying tribute to King Tutankhamen

 -

A colorless relief of Sea Peoples, mostly of Levantine and Libyan origin being marched by the Egyptians
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
This model depicting a crew are said to be Canaanites

https://www.akg-images.co.uk/archive/-2UMDHUW5SQZO.html

A model of a freight boat; on board the captain addresses the Canaanite crew
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 9/28/19

More great pics

 -

A relief of Canaanite herdsmen paying tribute to King Akhenaten

 -

A figurine from Iron Age Lachish

 -

Ivory statuette heads from the Fosse temple in Lachish

 -

Human-headed ivory from Lachish, Late Bronze Age

 -

Another Human-headed ivory from Lachish

 -

A jar head of the Canaanite God, Mot
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A Canaanite ivory head

 -

 -

Canaanite sarcophagus masks

 -

 -

 -

Images of a black basalt head of Canaanite God
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 10/26/19

 -

Traditional bound enemies of Egypt, the nine bows with figures of an Asiatic prisoner

Full caricature with bound Nubian captive: https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/art-archaeology-various-5850733ba
 
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
 
Amazing. Just look at all the images of ancient black people.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
Colorized images of the Elamites

 -

Part of a mural of Elamite soldiers of the Achaemenid Empire in Susa, Iran
 -

Screenshot image of a Elamite soldier on a different part of the mural

 -

Another screenshot of a Elamite soldier

 -

Part of a mural showing a Sphinx found in the palace of Darius the great, at same site as Elamite soldiers

 -

The entire mural of two Sphinx facing away from each other at the same site

There is no strong evidence that these are Elamites instead of Persians
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Could you explain to me why you doubt hese Achaemenid Soldiers are ethnically Elamites then, since you brought it up?
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
( took out the repeat of images)

I have researched this before. Scholars are uncertain about it.

Read several sources about it >>


https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22persian+archers%22+elamites
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Hmm, alright then, but I doubt the Archers represents the Persians because historically the Persians were always referred to as Whites and not as Blacks.

The Roman Sextus Empiricus describes Ethiopians and Persians standard of beauty: ''The Ethiopian preferring the blackest and most snub-nosed, and the Persian approving the whitest and most hook-nosed.”

Al Jahiz contrasts the population of Whites and Blacks: The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous

Furthermore, I only got this assumption that the Achaemenid Archers were ethnically Elamites from my book, “The African Presence In Asia” and I am still of this assumption because the Elamites are the likely candidates for Archer’s identity along with the fact that they are aboriginals of Southern Iran, so this makes since to me.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
 -
LL Cool J


 -
Alexander the Great,
Alexander Mosaic, Roman 100 BC
depicting Darius III (c. 380 – July 330 BC)

 -
Alexander Mosaic, Roman 100 BC
depicting Darius III (c. 380 – July 330 BC)


______________________________________________

Persian Art 6th century B.C.

 -
ARCHERPerepolis
.
 -

 -
The Palace of Darius in Susa

 -
Darius of Persia, Behistun

 -
Persepolis




quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
[QB] Hmm, alright then, but I doubt the Archers represents the Persians because historically the Persians were always referred to as Whites and not as Blacks.

Al Jahiz contrasts the population of Whites and Blacks: The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous


Note this:

1)Al Jahiz , born 776 A.D.

2) The Palace of Darius in Susa
The construction was conducted parallel to that of Persepolis. 522-486 BC

** Over a thousand years difference, these Achaemenid sites

quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:

The Roman Sextus Empiricus describes Ethiopians and Persians standard of beauty: ''The Ethiopian preferring the blackest and most snub-nosed, and the Persian approving the whitest and most hook-nosed.”


Sextus, born 160 A.D.

The Palace of Darius in Susa 522-486 BC

**682 years difference

Look at the Roman Mural at top called the "Alexander Mosiac" depicting made in 100 BC
Details of Alexander
Depicting Darius III (c. 380 – July 330 BC)


Some might consider LL Cool J to be black others not dark enough to be black.
Nevertheless he's lighter skinned than many (although his skin tone can very according to how much sun exposure he's getting at a particular time)
So we have Alexander and Darius both depicted with brown skin and it's in a degree of darkness in the realm of LL Cool J.
Darius perhaps slightly darker than Alexander here
Some might say "black" is skin color only,that brown skinned East Indians are black people and that Darius in this mural is black. Others might disagree.

Then we look at this older Persia art created by the Achaemenid Empire of Persia

quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:

The Roman Sextus Empiricus describes Ethiopians and Persians standard of beauty: ''The Ethiopian preferring the blackest and most snub-nosed, and the Persian approving the whitest and most hook-nosed.”


What we see with this Achaemenid at Persepolis and Susa is a combinations of features.
They almost all "hook nosed" or closer to it than "snub nosed" as your Sextus Empiricus quote describes.
If not "hooked" look at how thin and straght that painted archer's nose is above
The hair is depicted as big curls and those big curls appear to collect at the bottom and they are weighing down the hair and also some of the head gear is pulling down the hair so at the top of the head we see these wavy-straight areas of the hair.

So it it appears to be large semi-loose curls not as tight as some "kinky" haired Africans by other Africans regarded as black might have this hair.
But other people might have this type of hair not regarded as black.

So the bottom line is this, virtually all of the figures at Persepolis and Susa, this Achaemenid art show people with thin noses that stick out, are not flat. They all have pencil thin lips.
None of this is painted except those Archers and that Sphinx

They have dark brown skin.
If "black" means "any person with brown skin" then they are black. If there is more to it perhaps they aren't black.

It seems odd to think that these particular figures are brown skinned but the figures with the exact same features and hair would not also have brown skin.

So one could make an assumption that the Persians all had brown skin at the time on average darker than LL Cool J and if this is the case there would be no reason to believe that those figures are Elamites.

So if one assumes the Persians had brown or dark brown skin at the time of the Achaemenids, whether they be "black people" or not according to how someone wishes to define that term, perhaps by the time of Sextus Empiricus around 700 year later they admixed with lighter skinned people

So maybe, when using the term "white" as per the Persians that would only apply to the post Achaemenid Persians
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Sextus Empiricus died in 210 A.D. that is the Parthian period

 -
Parthian Prince

So we can't lump together all the Persians (bota also can't assume that as one kingdom replaces another that mixing was not going on)

Median and Achaemenid Empire (650–330 BC)

Greek conquest and Seleucid Empire (312 BCE–248 BCE)

Parthian Empire (248 BC–224 AD)

So there is even another period in between, they are the Seleucid
.


.

____________________________________________

 -

 -
Elamites, relief 645 A.D.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Lioness, I don't doubt the possibility of indigenous Iranian groups, such as the Elamites, wouldn't amalgamate with the newcomers from the Steppes, in fact that wasn't my argument. I already know that most people have their own definitions for what is "Black", what is "White", etc. You say this is an issue of phenotype, I am well aware of this. Personally I see this as a moot debate because when it comes to distinct features being differentiated among populations, there are always a contradiction. That contradiction being the in-betweenness of some populations.

 -

A Hadhrami Arab man, note that his features are typically considered in the Western World as “Caucasian”, but also note that some of man’s carry features often considered “Negro”. Thick lips, elongated head, wide nostrils, wavy or curly hair, and of coarse dark skin. Obviously this isn’t one-sided as some may think, but that depends on how one may address this topic.

Despite this, I still maintain that the Persians were a predominantly “White” or fair skinned people just as they are now, given that their ancestry traces back to the Steppes, a region that are still plummeting with fair skinned peoples.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 11/3/19

 -

Screenshot of a bound Aegean/Keftiu prisoner

 -

 -

 -

Screenshots of the Aamu
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

Reconstruction of a mural of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, from the Tomb of Anen in Upper Egypt, Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna

 -

The mural before restoration

 -

 -

 -

Screenshots of bound captives from Syria, Ethiopia, Libya, Anatolia, and Mesopotamia

 -

 -

Screenshots of two Asiatics, two Nubians, and a Libyan getting trampled or stepped on
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A mural of Royal Dignitaries or Princes of Keftiu (Crete), Hatti (Anatolia), and Tunip (Northern Syria), giving tribute to an Egyptian Ruler, from the Tomb of Menkheperreseneb

 -

Restoration of three remaining Aegean figures paying homage to an Egyptian Ruler, from the Tomb of Senenmut

 -

Four foreign tributaries from Syria and the Aegean, from the Tomb of Puimre
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

Nude figurines of Elamite musicians
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A depiction of a bound Asiatic and Nubian on a sandal

 -

Fragments of ceramic female heads, from the Ancient Phoenician town of Porphyreon, Lebanon
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

 -

 -


https://cdn.britannica.com/43/135343-050-AD606209/roof-tile-Etruscan-head-terra-cotta-satyr-New.jpg


 -

 -

 -

Etruscan terracottas of bearded satyrs with a deep reddish complexion

 -

A Etruscan mask
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

Aristocratic Male Figure from the Tomb of Necropolis in Paestum, Campania, Italy

 -

Tomb of the diver, from the same site

 -

 -

Dark complexioned Etruscan men, from the Tomb
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
http://ancientsportandspectacle.usask.ca/islandora/object/kalinowski%3A606/datastream/OBJ/view

A fresco of dark complexioned Boxers, from a Lucan tomb, Basilicata, Italy

 -

A Roman fresco depicting Priests making an ancestral sacrifice at an alter, from house altar/lararium, House of Julius Polybius, Pompeii

 -

A Roman fresco depicting a Genius making a sacrifice at an altar while two Lares stand on either side, from the same city
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 11/15/19

 -

Keftiu delegation from the tomb of Senenmut at Thebes

 -

A fragment depicting a Aegean/Keftiu Bull-Leaper

 -

A fragment depicting an Acrobat performing beside a palm tree

 -

Fragment of a Bearded man

 -

Fragment of another Bull-Leaper

 -

Restoration of the fragment
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

 -

 -

Fragments of papyrus depicting a battle between the Sea Peoples, Libyans, and the Egyptians
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baalberith:
Lioness, I don't doubt the possibility of indigenous Iranian groups, such as the Elamites, wouldn't amalgamate with the newcomers from the Steppes, in fact that wasn't my argument. I already know that most people have their own definitions for what is "Black", what is "White", etc. You say this is an issue of phenotype, I am well aware of this. Personally I see this as a moot debate because when it comes to distinct features being differentiated among populations, there are always a contradiction. That contradiction being the in-betweenness of some populations.

 -

A Hadhrami Arab man, note that his features are typically considered in the Western World as “Caucasian”, but also note that some of man’s carry features often considered “Negro”. Thick lips, elongated head, wide nostrils, wavy or curly hair, and of coarse dark skin. Obviously this isn’t one-sided as some may think, but that depends on how one may address this topic.

Despite this, I still maintain that the Persians were a predominantly “White” or fair skinned people just as they are now, given that their ancestry traces back to the Steppes, a region that are still plummeting with fair skinned peoples.

The guy in the picture is from Egypt, if I am correct. I think I met him at some store nearby the Valley of Kings. His facial traits are no different from many Horners.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Huh, that strange. I found this image just randomly on another message board and it was said he was a Hadrami Yemeni. Here's the thread.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/the-hadhrami-people-of-yemen-and-the-diaspora-t25504-s15.html

Pay no mind to some of the misinformation that was posted in that thread.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 11/29/19

 -

Screenshot of a bound Asiatic prisoner, said to be from the Kingdom of Mitanni in Anatolia

(Edit)

Update 12/10/19

Had to replace this picture, since it keeps disappearing.

 -

 -

A wall tile depicting a bound Asiatic prisoner
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/1/19

 -

A plaque depicting the face of the Mesopatamian Demon, Humbaba

 -

A Mask of Humbaba
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

A terracotta figure of the Greek Goddess, Aphrodite
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/5/19

 -

 -

 -

A mural depicting Syrians alongside a fortress, from the Tomb of Amenmose
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/10/19

 -

A Canaanite plaque of the Phoenician/Mesopotamian Goddess, Ishtar or Astarte

 -

A statuette of the Phoenician/Mesopotamian Goddess, Ishtar or Astarte, interesting enough this artifact was located in Spain

 -

Another statuette of Ishtar from Sardinia, Italy

 -

Small statuettes from Carthage

 -

Terracotta mask from the Necropolis of Dermech, Carthage
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/11/19

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/head-with-archaic-and-punic-features-from-ibiza-phoenician-5th4th-picture-id143052366?s=2048x2048

Terracotta head of Phoenician woman, from Ibiza, Spain

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mans-head-stone-sculpture-from-khirbet-ettannur-in-jordan-nabataean-picture-id173458607?s=2048x2048

Head of a Nabataean man

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/head-of-man-alabaster-sculpture-from-mezar-stelleri-arabia-preislamic-picture-id475597041?s=2048x2048

Head of a man from Arabia
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/13/19

 -

Four royal attendants standing beside the king's chariot and carrying fans and sun shades. The first two attendants have been described as Asiatics, while the third attendant has been described as a Nubian. the last Attendant's "ethnic" identity is unknown.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

Head of an Asiatic
 
Posted by Tehutimes (Member # 21712) on :
 
All 4 of the servants in the plaque have thick lips & flat to wide nostrils whether Nubian or Asian. The fourth is of unknown ethnicity? Really?
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Hey, unless you can find the missing parts to the plaque, the attendant’s identity remains unknown.
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/23/19

Caricatures of Asiatics from the book, “History of Egypt: Volume 4”

 -

 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

 -

 -
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -

 -

If you would like to read this book, here is the link.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/17324/17324-h/17324-h.htm
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
 -
 
Posted by Baalberith (Member # 23079) on :
 
Update 12/26/19

 -

Statue of a Arabian man

 -

Two busts of Arabians

 -

A pillar with a sculpture of Arabian man
 


(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3