posted
Since race is more or less a social construct, I decided to ask this here, rather than Egyptology. What race are the Ancient Egyptians? Were they more than one race?
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posted
Puzzled. The matter has long been settled. What if one asks "what race were the Chinese of the 1,000 BC?" What would you say?
Don't be misled by the the disease that boils down to "White Derangement Syndrome" when it comes to the AEs. The Ancient Egyptians were very clear on who they were compared to other groups. The civilization lasted 3,000 years and from time to time there were non-African invaders--but the AE portrayal of the GENERIC AE was always there. Plus that gigantic monument to Africa, the Sphinx. Plus don't be misled by the stupid attempts by Eurocentrics to distort the picture--as in the case of that fake Nerfertiti. Also, don't fall for the deceptiveness of the those mulatto depictions of the Greco-Roman era.
posted
Race is no more a social construct than languages are. French and Spanish are much more cognate to each other than Russian is to each, etc.
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posted
I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking the Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
quote:Originally posted by A Habsburg Agenda: ^^^^ In the 21st century BCE which contemporary racial group would you put them in, i.e in plain English?
If you were mugged today by a person looking like an ancient Egyptian the police asked "what colour was he/she?", how would you respond?
posted
Black Crytal,This is the illusion of your crazy head. Anyone worthy of justice, in analyzing evidence from ancient Egypt, will note that these Palestinians who are Turks do not look like ancient Egyptians at all.
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking to Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
quote:Originally posted by A Habsburg Agenda: ^^^^ In the 21st century BCE which contemporary racial group would you put them in, i.e in plain English?
If you were mugged today by a person looking like an ancient Egyptian the police asked "what colour was he/she?", how would you respond?
Colloquial language PLEASE!!
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posted
Hey Buddy, if you want to believe ancient Egyptians were whatever you think they were then that is your prerogative. I never asked for your approval. So, please, respect my right to exercise my belief on who they were "racially" as well.
quote:Originally posted by Lion: Black Crytal,This is the illusion of your crazy head. Anyone worthy of justice, in analyzing evidence from ancient Egypt, will note that these Palestinians who are Turks do not look like ancient Egyptians at all.
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking to Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
quote:Originally posted by A Habsburg Agenda: ^^^^ In the 21st century BCE which contemporary racial group would you put them in, i.e in plain English?
If you were mugged today by a person looking like an ancient Egyptian the police asked "what colour was he/she?", how would you respond?
quote:I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking the Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
The AEs would disagree with you. They always distinguished themselves from Arabs, Persians, and Europeans.
Greek Scholars Familiar with Egyptians when Greece Conquered Egypta
Herodotus The Egyptians and Nubians are black-skinned and woolly haired. And other passages from his book HISTORIES.
Aristotle(Book: Physiognomica) Too black a hue as an Egyptian or Nubian marks a coward. Same for those who are too white a hue as you see with women. The best color is the intermediate tawny color of the lion. Such a hue marks for courage.
Why are Egyptians and Nubians bandy legged. Is it because of the heat of their countries? Heat bends planks of wood in the same way. The heat has also bended their hair, for it is the curliest of all nations.
Ammianus Mercellinus(Roman Author) Aegypti plerique subfusculi et atrati sunt.
The Egyptians for the most part are very dark(subfusculi) and they wear black clothing.
posted
The very first photo you produced shows they distinguished themselves from Black Africans also. But I noticed you did not add them to the list. Why? In addition in that picture there are three, not two Africans. Why did you omit the Libyan as an African?
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
quote:I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking the Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
The AEs would disagree with you. They always distinguished themselves from Arabs, Persians, and Europeans.
Greek Scholars Familiar with Egyptians when Greece Conquered Egypta
Herodotus The Egyptians and Nubians are black-skinned and woolly haired. And other passages from his book HISTORIES.
Aristotle(Book: Physiognomica) Too black a hue as an Egyptian or Nubian marks a coward. Same for those who are too white a hue as you see with women. The best color is the intermediate tawny color of the lion. Such a hue marks for courage.
Why are Egyptians and Nubians bandy legged. Is it because of the heat of their countries? Heat bends planks of wood in the same way. The heat has also bended their hair, for it is the curliest of all nations.
Ammianus Mercellinus(Roman Author) Aegypti plerique subfusculi et atrati sunt.
The Egyptians for the most part are very dark(subfusculi) and they wear black clothing.
Your reply clearly shows that you have never traveled to the African continent. People in Africa range from very dark all the way up to olive yellow. Here are some obvious examples.
The Libyan in the caption is not African. Clearly a nomadic migrant from West Asia. same as the Arab settlers in North Africa who entered Africa during the Islamic invasions of North Africa.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Oshun has been a member since 2011 and he made this thread as if he was brand new. I don;t get it. It's been done in tons of threads for years and you can go to topiix and see many more
posted
I am not disputing Africa's phenotype variation. But you are implying that Africa hosts one "racial" type which I totally disagree. If we are discussing this topic within the race context, as set forth by the original poster, then ancient Egyptians were non-Negroid, racially.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: @ Crystal
Your reply clearly shows that you have never traveled to the African continent. People in Africa range from very dark all the way up to olive yellow. Here are some obvious examples.
posted
Are you claiming the Egyptologists, experts in the field, got it wrong and you got it right? What is your field of expertise?
quote:Originally posted by lamin: @ Crystal
The Libyan in the caption is not African. Clearly a nomadic migrant from West Asia. same as the Arab settlers in North Africa who entered Africa during the Islamic invasions of North Africa.
posted
@lioness: I'm asking this question because posters have been discussing differences in mindset about what they believe to qualify someone to a specific race. To be clear, I'm asking this in response to different threads I'm in. Getting an updated understanding and to see how mindsets may change overtime isn't "wrong."
Questions on the issue of genetics:
According to some on ES: DNA/African ancestry isn't needed to be black (Aboriginals, etc). So if someone looks a certain way they're black? Or is the opinion of blackness rooted more firmly in where one's genetic profile is? And from that perspective, how would you classify them racially?
My other question kind of comes from the Kola Boof stuff. Even if being African, does the prospect of them being mixed make them "non black?" (see Habsburg Agenda's posts on people with mixture saying they're black).
There's also the question of race when thinking of north/south proximities and time, even if your stance is that phenotype is most indicative of race. Does ES think the AE changed in certain areas (genetically or phenotypically) over certain periods or were they racially constant? Do you base your opinions of Egyptian phenotypes over all dynasic phases, and all of Egypt or select times and places?
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] I don't classify people solely on skin color. I take into consideration hair texture, skin color and facial phenotype. If ancient Egyptians were walking the Earth today to me they'd look like modern Palestinians. So to answer your question, they'd be identified as "Middle Eastern."
Honestly If we're going by phenotype, how many Palestinians look like this:
And if they did, then could someone argue "blacks" live in Palestine? To those that have been saying Melanesians/Aboriginals are black (even though they're not African at all), if this guy was middle Eastern and not African by DNA, would he still be black to you?
I think the confusion sets in, when you consider that southern AE encompassed phenotypes that would sort of stand out from the phenotypes in the Middle East we typically think of as brown. Yes there was looser hair in AE, but there was also hair that was much more curly, even kinky. Yes AE had more "elongated" features but there was also some broadness and slight prognathism in earlier periods.
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] The very first photo you produced shows they distinguished themselves from Black Africans also. But I noticed you did not add them to the list. Why? In addition in that picture there are three, not two Africans. Why did you omit the Libyan as an African?
Is noticing that they're relatively lighter than their neighbors further south mean they're a different race?
This African American has made comments about the relatively darker skin of this guy:
So if Tariq notices he's lighter than the guy above, does that mean Tariq isn't black, because the guy above is the only way black people can look? You'd be better off using the Faiyum portraits to make your case, honestly.
One other thing. Ancient Libyans varied phenotypically. Some looked like this:
Don't be deceived by the lying and distorting so-called Egyptologists and their fakers in pseudo-genetics. Their very transparent goal from the start has been to push the Arnold Toynbee line. "The only race that has never produced civilization is the African race".
But in the final analysis a picture is always preferable to BS Eurocentric posturing with 20,000 words.
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posted
The matter has already been settled by an image of an Egyptian which currently dominates the Egyptian skyline, an image which was ancient to the Ancient Egyptians themselves.
Egyptology is a discipline whose main rationale is to prove that the ancient Egyptians were not black.
The complexion the ancient Egyptians depicted of themselves in modern days is found mainly in Africans and South Indians. Even the South Indians of today who display such complexions are labelled "Black" by their countrymen,why? Because in terms of complexion they are "Black".
Here are some people whose colour matches those of the ancient Egyptians.
Princess Sikhanyiso Dlamini of Swaziland
Ato Boldon - Isn't his complexion a near perfect match for the Egyptian drawing?
Anwar Sadat - President Mubarak's predecessor. You see an Egyptian looking like the Pharoahs, not that Zawi Hawass would want to admit it.
Terry McMillan
Philip of Hesse - Behind Glass
-------------------- The Habsburg Agenda - Defending Western Christian civilization Posts: 890 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2014
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quote:Originally posted by A Habsburg Agenda: [QB] The matter has already been settled by an image of an Egyptian which currently dominates the Egyptian skyline, an image which was ancient to the Ancient Egyptians themselves.
why are you comparing a sculpture with a broken off nose to a person?
posted
^^^^ Why shouldn't I? The amount of material broken off the statue is a good indicator of the original width of the nose. Other than the stylized eyes the profile is a good match.
There would even be better matches if a better search was instituted. Note that Sgt Frank Domingo who was hired to compare the profile of the Sphinx with that of Khafre stated in the program that, he had seen women whose profile matched that of the Sphinx and they were black women which in the USA means women of Sub-Saharan African origin.
Would you take the word of bunch of professional speculators known as Egyptologists over the word of person whose profession involves reconstructing faces from degraded and even skeletal remains of human beings?
-------------------- The Habsburg Agenda - Defending Western Christian civilization Posts: 890 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2014
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I have commented on how is race measured in another thread. It seems you, exclusively, equate color to race. My understanding is race, as defined today, is measured by three traits:
(1) hair texture (2) skin color (3) facial features
If you look at the image below the artist not only distinguishes the skin color of Egyptian from Black African, the facial phenotype is different (prominent prognathism features only on the Black African), and loose hair that runs behind the ear is present only in three; the the Black African has tightly coiled hair which cannot run behind the ear.
Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
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quote:Originally posted by A Habsburg Agenda: ^^^^ Why shouldn't I? The amount of material broken off the statue is a good indicator of the original width of the nose. Other than the stylized eyes the profile is a good match.
There would even be better matches if a better search was instituted. Note that Sgt Frank Domingo who was hired to compare the profile of the Sphinx with that of Khafre stated in the program that, he had seen women whose profile matched that of the Sphinx and they were black women which in the USA means women of Sub-Saharan African origin.
Would you take the word of bunch of professional speculators known as Egyptologists over the word of person whose profession involves reconstructing faces from degraded and even skeletal remains of human beings?
This is in terrible condition. The nose could have been wide and long and pointed or it could have been more flat it is impossible to tell.
. Head of King Userkaf Fifth Dynasty, reign of Userkaf Red granite H. 75 cm (29 5/8 in.) Egyptian Museum, Cairo JE 52501
King Menkaura Egyptian Old Kingdom, Dynasty 4 2490–2472 B.C.
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: How? You can still see the thick lips,why is that not equally eroded?
Legends have passed over hundreds of years regarding the simple omission in this photograph of the Sphinx and the Pyramid of Khafre, part of the Giza Pyramid (or Great Pyramid) complex in Egypt. Where is the Sphinx’s nose? Many of us have heard the tale that a cannonball fired by Napoleon’s soldiers hit the nose and caused it to break off. Sketches of the Sphinx by the Dane Frederic Louis Norden were created in 1737 and published in 1755, well before the era of Napoleon. However, these drawings illustrate the Sphinx without a nose and clearly contradicts the legend. So what really happened? The Egyptian Arab historian al-Maqrīzī wrote in the 15th century that the nose was actually destroyed by a Sufi Muslim named Muhammad Sa'im al-Dahr. In 1378 CE, Egyptian peasants made offerings to the Great Sphinx in the hope of controlling the flood cycle, which would result in a successful harvest. Outraged by this blatant show of devotion, Sa'im al-Dahr destroyed the nose and was later executed for vandalism. Whether this is absolute fact is still debatable.
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: How? You can still see the thick lips,why is that not equally eroded?
Legends have passed over hundreds of years regarding the simple omission in this photograph of the Sphinx and the Pyramid of Khafre, part of the Giza Pyramid (or Great Pyramid) complex in Egypt. Where is the Sphinx’s nose? Many of us have heard the tale that a cannonball fired by Napoleon’s soldiers hit the nose and caused it to break off. Sketches of the Sphinx by the Dane Frederic Louis Norden were created in 1737 and published in 1755, well before the era of Napoleon. However, these drawings illustrate the Sphinx without a nose and clearly contradicts the legend. So what really happened? The Egyptian Arab historian al-Maqrīzī wrote in the 15th century that the nose was actually destroyed by a Sufi Muslim named Muhammad Sa'im al-Dahr. In 1378 CE, Egyptian peasants made offerings to the Great Sphinx in the hope of controlling the flood cycle, which would result in a successful harvest. Outraged by this blatant show of devotion, Sa'im al-Dahr destroyed the nose and was later executed for vandalism. Whether this is absolute fact is still debatable.
______________________________
The lips are also quite damaged although not as badly as the nose
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Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
post a picture of one pleas that has such hair that has not been permed or styled to look that way
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posted
Obviously they are mix. Also why would you use African American as a standard when there is a percentage of Black Americans with significant mix ancestry?
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: So these people are what racially?
Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Since race is more or less a social construct, I decided to ask this here, rather than Egyptology. What race are the Ancient Egyptians? Were they more than one race?
If race is a social construct and society does not give precise ways of measuring it, then it is whatever you feel like
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
OR
if you prefer a black person is anybody who is treated like a black person. That means the person who does the treatment defines it, once they treat a person a particular way the person is black
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Since race is more or less a social construct, I decided to ask this here, rather than Egyptology. What race are the Ancient Egyptians? Were they more than one race?
If race is a social construct and society does not give precise ways of measuring it, then it is whatever you feel like
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
OR
if you prefer a black person is anybody who is treated like a black person. That means the person who do the treatment defines it, once they treat a person a particular way the person is black
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] People use three metrics to determine race, socially:
Hair, skin and facial morphology.
There is no standard to measure these things, therefore it's subjective opinion The number of races is not even agreed on
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posted
Im not ready to fully agree with you that it is subjective as there is a consensus standard and pretty much all official definitions follow this standard (please refer to earlier link I provided). Admittedly an individual is not obligated to follow this standard; however, the standard provided is shared by the majority. If a person sees an East Indian blacker than a thousand nights, still the majority of people would not view this person as racially "black. "
*See below*
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] People use three metrics to determine race, socially:
Hair, skin and facial morphology.
There is no standard to measure these things, therefore it's subjective opinion The number of races is not even agreed on
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: Im not ready to fully agree with you that it is subjective as there is a consensus standard and pretty much all official definitions follow this standard (please refer to earlier link I provided). Admittedly an individual is not obligated to follow this standard; however, the standard provided is shared by the majority. If a person sees an East Indian blacker than a thousand nights, still the majority of people would not view this person as racially "black. "
*See below*
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] People use three metrics to determine race, socially:
Hair, skin and facial morphology.
There is no standard to measure these things, therefore it's subjective opinion The number of races is not even agreed on
You started with "three metrics to determine race, socially"
socially is not scientifically and does not regard measurement
Now you have extended the number of traits beyond 3 adding eye color and indicating that there are two traits pertaining to hair not one and adding head size and shape
Your first version
Hair, skin facial morphology.
but now you change to seven traits
skin color hair color hair texture eye color facial morphology. (feature types, nose, lips etc) head size head shape
Now you have 7 considerations
and have provided no standardized way to measure each of these such that it indicates the "white race" or the "black race" and other races of which the number of races, a complete list you haven't even mentioned yet
-and that has no agreed upon standard as well
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posted
I didnt bother to highlight eye color as majority of people measure race based on the three traits I presented. Even the definition states they are the primary surface traits that guide people to identify the race. see below...
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: Im not ready to fully agree with you that it is subjective as there is a consensus standard and pretty much all official definitions follow this standard (please refer to earlier link I provided). Admittedly an individual is not obligated to follow this standard; however, the standard provided is shared by the majority. If a person sees an East Indian blacker than a thousand nights, still the majority of people would not view this person as racially "black. "
*See below*
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: [QB] People use three metrics to determine race, socially:
Hair, skin and facial morphology.
There is no standard to measure these things, therefore it's subjective opinion The number of races is not even agreed on
You started with "three metrics to determine race, socially"
socially is not scientifically and does not regard measurement
Now you have extended the number of traits beyond 3 adding eye color and indicating that there are two traits pertaining to hair not one and adding head size and shape
Your first version
Hair, skin facial morphology.
but now you change to seven traits
skin color hair color hair texture eye color facial morphology. (feature types, nose, lips etc) head size head shape
Now you have 7 considerations
and have provided no standardized way to measure each of these such that it indicates the "white race" or the "black race" and other races of which the number of races, a complete list you haven't even mentioned yet
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I didnt bother to highlight eye color as majority of people measure race based on the three traits I presented. Even the definition states they are the primary surface traits that guide people to identify the race. see below...
Again, there is no standard for, determining how many races there are or measuring people to determine what race they are so it doesn't matter what traits you want to list or not list
Oshun says it's a social construct not determined by scientific measurement.
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posted
I wasn't saying blacks couldn't have elongated features. But lets be honest, if we're looking for relative likeness to AE among modern blacks, a Somali would be closer to the average southern AE in appearance than say a Yoruba or Dinka.
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: Obviously they are mix. Also why would you use African American as a standard when there is a percentage of Black Americans with significant mix ancestry?
Because whether they have mixture with Europeans, Asians, etc. they're still treated as blacks.
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Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
post a picture of one pleas that has such hair that has not been permed or styled to look that way
"styling" as in what? moisturizers and creams to keep a defined look? Even Egyptians used fats to define their curls. The use of things like that is to help maintain the hair's natural definition does NOT make it a different pattern. I honestly can't tell the difference between weaves and natural hair, so I can only show pictures of blacks with hair like people I know to have been natural (friends, family, etc).
It doesn't normally get THIS loose (among AA)
But AA in the past would call the Somali woman's texture "good hair" while talking about kinky hair as though it was "bad hair." It's thankfully not as socially accepted to say those types of things now (though it still happens). Though, if Egyptians looked like the man in the image above, what race would you consider them?
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Many African Americans don't have wooly hair either, though it's common. Still treated like blacks though.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
I honestly can't tell the difference between weaves and natural hair, so I can only show pictures of blacks with hair like people I know to have been natural (friends, family, etc).
It doesn't normally get THIS loose (among AA)
that's Omarion with a perm
Omarion on the right as a child
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posted
I already said it wasn't normal for AA to have hair that loose, anyway. But you didn't answer my question either. IF there was someone whose natural features looked like that in ancient times (or modern) what would their race be?
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