It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.
Depiction of Hoshea King of Israel giving tribute to King Shalmaneser III of Assyria (2 Kings 17:3), on the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III from Nimrud (circa 827 BC) in the British Museum (London).
Neo-Assyrian, 858-824 BC From Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), northern Iraq
The military achievements of an Assyrian king
The archaeologist Henry Layard discovered this black limestone obelisk in 1846 during his excavations of the site of Kalhu, the ancient Assyrian capital. It was erected as a public monument in 825 BC at a time of civil war. The relief sculptures glorify the achievements of King Shalmaneser III (reigned 858-824 BC) and his chief minister. It lists their military campaigns of thirty-one years and the tribute they exacted from their neighbours: including camels, monkeys, an elephant and a rhinoceros. Assyrian kings often collected exotic animals and plants as an expression of their power.
There are five scenes of tribute, each of which occupies four panels round the face of the obelisk and is identified by a line of cuneiform script above the panel. From top to bottom they are:
Sua of Gilzanu (in north-west Iran) Jehu of Bit Omri (ancient northern Israel) An unnamed ruler of Musri (probably Egypt) Marduk-apil-usur of Suhi (middle Euphrates, Syria and Iraq) Qalparunda of Patin (Antakya region of Turkey)
The second register from the top includes the earliest surviving picture of an Israelite: the Biblical Jehu, king of Israel, brought or sent his tribute in around 841 BC. Ahab, son of Omri, king of Israel, had lost his life in battle a few years previously, fighting against the king of Damascus at Ramoth-Gilead (I Kings xxii. 29-36). His second son (Joram) was succeeded by Jehu, a usurper, who broke the alliances with Phoenicia and Judah, and submitted to Assyria. The caption above the scene, written in Assyrian cuneiform, can be translated
The tribute of Jehu, son of Omri: I received from him silver, gold, a golden bowl, a golden vase with pointed bottom, golden tumblers, golden buckets, tin, a staff for a king [and] spears.
J.E. Reade, Assyrian sculpture-1 (London, The British Museum Press, 1998)
T.C. Mitchell, The Bible in the British Museu (London, The British Museum Press, 1988)
D. Luckenbill, Ancient records of Assyria and (, 1927 (reprinted 1989))
________________________________
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
This is an humiliating picture of the black or mulato king of Israel bowing down in front of the black and mulato king of Assyria. If he didn't do that the Assyrian would have cut his head. I would like to see the picture of the Egyptian, Iranian, Irakian and Turkish king on the stela.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Each panel runs around all four sides of the obelisk and is described by the cuneiform inscription above it.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
There are specialists who doubt Yehu, potentate of the divided Hebrew's northern kingdom Yisra'El, is herein depicted rather than diplomats in Assyrian employ. Let's assume that it is Yehu and that he and the retainers shown as one rotates the obelisk do exemplify the average phenotype of northern kingdom Hebrews, though strict comparison of the retainers in each register (their hairstyle and clothing) would be very informative. I'd do it but I no longer own Pritchard's The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures.
We still have not to dismiss the images of the southern Hebrew kingdom Y*huda's ruling junta depicted by Sennacherib ~120 years later (not so long afterward).
Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
That's because they're not Egyptian any more than Israel was Caucasian.
Been through all this before a few times. Don't waste my time. Review site:egyptsearch.com Shalmaneser site:egyptsearch.com Sennacherib
I know its better to start anew than link or bump old threads so some other cat can drag it in.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Please let's not talk about Caucasians and Negroids. I'm tired of them both
Caucasians and Negroids are banned from this thread
thanks, lioness
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Please let's not talk about Caucasians and Negroids. I'm tired of them both
Caucasians and Negroids are banned from this thread
thanks, lioness
. Yes and that is why you posted "Yehu" while neglecting the Elders of Lachish right?
There is no other word for the inhabitants and emmigrating peoples from the Caucasus Mountains other than the word Caucasian because that is precisely what they are, CAUCASIANS.
Caucasians passed down through the Daryal Gorge to enter Mesopotamia and the Levant to influx resident populations and to form new ethnies of their own.
The eastern Mediterranean is a nexus of three continents. It and the Arabian Peninsula were peopled by other migrant invaders who didn't originally speak in Afrisian. Semitic speakers were among the first but weren't the only inhabitants of the region. Chadic and/or Nilo-Saharan speakers likely preceded them. Indo-Europeans, Caucasics, Altaics, etc., came after them probably via Daryal Gorge through the Caucasus.
From this can be gathered, if anything, that "Semites" are partially North East Africans who migrated into the Arabian peninsula and moved northward (as far as up to Turkey) where they met and mingled with and were maybe blocked from further spread by southward invading Eurasian peoples (Altaic and Indo-European speakers) in pre-historic times. Upon the eclipse of the southerners the hybrids and assimilated settlers (beginning circa -1800 with the maryannu caste) became heir to the names and languages of the original people they married into and whose culture they emulated and lexicon enriched.
People look at the familiar faces from the region as shown by the media and never see all the faces on the back streets and non-urban areas which more than likely resemble the original indigenees even before E3b bearers introduced Afrisan and the beginnings of neolithic industries.
It was the good life Afrisan speakers initiated and the indigenees nurtured that made the place a magnet for immigrants to cross the Daryal Gorge to infuse themselves in SWANEA. And Indo-European speakers continued to migrate in whatever numbers especially in Roman Byzantine and Crusader eras. Not to count the sexual slave trade (particularly in Circassian females) with the rise of Islam.
I'd revise bits of that, if freshly posting it today, but the bulk and certainly the gist of it is factual.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Each panel runs around all four sides of the obelisk and is described by the cuneiform inscription above it.
I notice the headwear, ...
2 Kings 17:3
Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up to attack Hoshea, who had been Shalmaneser’s vassal and had paid him tribute.
2 Kings 17:4
But the king of Assyria discovered that Hoshea was a traitor, for he had sent envoys to So king of Egypt, and he no longer paid tribute to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year. Therefore Shalmaneser seized him and put him in prison.
2 Kings 18:9
In King Hezekiah’s fourth year, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Shalmaneser king of Assyria marched against Samaria and laid siege to it.
2 Kings 18:13
In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah’s reign, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked all the fortified cities of Judah and captured them.
2 Kings 18:17
[Sennacherib Threatens Jerusalem ] The king of Assyria sent his supreme commander, his chief officer and his field commander with a large army, from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem. They came up to Jerusalem and stopped at the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Washerman’s Field.
2 Kings 19:20
[Isaiah Prophesies Sennacherib’s Fall ] Then Isaiah son of Amoz sent a message to Hezekiah: “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I have heard your prayer concerning Sennacherib king of Assyria.
ISAIAH » PROPHECIES, REPROOFS, AND EXHORTATIONS OF » Reproves Ephraim for his wickedness, and fortells the destruction by Shalmaneser (Isaiah 28:1-5)
SAMARIA » City of, built by Omri » Besieged by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, for three years; captured; the people carried away to Halah and Habor, cities of the Medes (2 Kings 17:5,6;18:9-11)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Normally when people reply to a remark and quote that remark, their reply is related in subject
So if I say these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians and then somebody quotes me and replies it's a good assumption that that their remark will be related to my remark
However you rountinely quote people and then the remark you make after it is unrelated to the quote, just random
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Normally when people reply to a remark and quote that remark, their reply is related in subject
So if I say these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians and then somebody quotes me and replies it's a good assumption that that their remark will be related to my remark
However you rountinely quote people and then the remark you make after it is unrelated to the quote, just random
Normally when people receive a question they simple it, you were making a suggestion or at least something like that.
So, as I asked before, I'm going to ask you again. Where did you read that.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Ps, ^they answer simple it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Ps, ^they answer simple it
My remark was an observation not something I read
Tukular posted a Lachish relief and remarked
"Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt."
I observed the people in the relief didn't look like Egyptians and both you and Tukular agree with this, so stop nitpicking, thanks in advance
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Ps, ^they answer simple it
My remark was an observation not something I read
Tukular posted a Lachish relief and remarked
"Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt."
I observed the people in the relief didn't look like Egyptians and both you and Tukular agree with this, so stop nitpicking, thanks in advance
Oh, so that's why you nitpicked on this biblical text? You can always change it if you want.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
By the way, I'm not really sure what you mean be, agreeing on something. What I'm supposedly agreeing on, with you?
The Southern Kingdom is indeed closer to Africa, that's a mathematical fact. The Northern Kingdom is indeed closer to the Caucasus. That's also a mathematical fact.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The Southern Kingdom of Judah
The Southern Kingdom consisted of 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin). The kingdom extended in the north as far as Bethel, while in the south it ended in the dry area known as the Negev. Its eastern and western boundaries were the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Jerusalem was its capital and it lasted from about 922-586 B.C., Judah had somewhat of a better record. Only 8 of Judah's kings served God. These were: Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joash, Amaziah, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah. The rest of the 20 kings were wicked. In the southern kingdom there was only one dynasty, that of king David, except usurper Athaliah from the northern kingdom, who by marriage, broke into David's line, and interrupted the succession for 6 years, 20 kings in all. An average of about 16 years to a reign.
After Josiah there was no hope for Judah, the last 3 kings were all evil. The Babylonians swept down upon Jerusalem in 597 BC and captured it. A second attack led to Jerusalem's second defeat in 586 BC. Captives from both campaigns were taken to Babylonia to mark the captivity of the Southern Kingdom.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Israel, Kingdom of - Meaning of Israel, Kingdom of in Smiths Bible Dictionary (Bible History Online)
I. the kingdom. --The prophet Ahijah of Shiloh, who was commissioned in the latter days of Solomon to announce the division of the kingdom, left one tribe (Judah) to the house of David, and assigned ten to Jeroboam. 1Ki 11:31,35 These were probably Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh), Issachar, Zebulun, Asher, Naphtali, Benjamin, Dan, Simeon, Gad and Reuben; Levi being intentionally omitted. Eventually the greater part of Benjamin, and probably the whole of Simeon and Dan, were included as if by common consent in the kingdom of Judah. With respect to the conquests of David, Moab appears to have been attached to the kingdom of Israel. 2Ki 3:4 so much of Syria as remained subject to Solomon, see 1Ki 11:24 would probably be claimed by his successor in the northern kingdom; and Ammon was at one time allied 2Ch 20:1 we know not how closely or how early, with Moab. The seacoast between Accho and Japho remained in the possession of Israel. The whole population may perhaps have amounted to at least three and a half millions.
II. the capitals. --Shechem was the first capital of the new kingdom. 1Ki 12:25 Subsequently Tirzah became the royal residence, if not the capital, of Jeroboam 1Ki 14:17 and of his successors. cf. 1Ki 15:33; 16:8,17,23 Samaria was chosen by Omri. 1Ki 16:24 Jezreel was probably only a royal residence of some of the Israelitish kings.
III. History. --The kingdom of Israel lasted 254 years, from B.C. 975 to B.C. 721. The detailed history of the kingdom will be found under the names of its nineteen kings. See chart of the kings of Judah and Israel, at the end of the work. A summary view may be taken in four periods: (a) B.C. 975-929. Jeroboam had not sufficient force of character in himself to make a lasting impression on his people. A king, but not a founder of a dynasty, he aimed at nothing beyond securing his present elevation. Baasha, in the midst of the army at Gibbethon, slew the son and successor of Jeroboam; Zimri, a captain of chariots, slew the son and successor of Baasha; Omri, the captain of the host, was chosen to punish Zimri; and after a civil war of four years he prevailed over Tibni, the choice of half the people. (b) B.C. 929-884. For forty-five years Israel wag governed by the house of Omri. The princes of his house cultivated an alliance with the king of Judah which was cemented by the marriage of Jehoram and Athaliah. The adoption of Baal-worship led to a reaction in the nation, to the moral triumph of the prophets in the person of Elijah, and to extinction of the house of Ahab in obedience to the bidding of Elisha. (c) B.C. 884-772. Unparalleled triumphs, but deeper humiliation, awaited the kingdom of Israel under the dynasty of Jehu. Hazael, the ablest king of Damascus, reduced Jehoahaz to the condition of a vassal, and triumphed for a time over both the disunited Hebrew kingdoms. Almost the first sign of the restoration of their strength was a war between them; and Jehoash, the grandson of Jehu, entered Jerusalem as the conqueror of Amaziah. Jehoash also turned the tide of war against the Syrians; and Jeroboam II., the most powerful of all the kings of of Israel, captured Damascus, and recovered the whole ancient frontier from Hamath to the Dead Sea. This short-lived greatness expired with the last king of Jehu's line. (d) B.C. 772-721. Military violence, it would seem, broke off the hereditary succession after the obscure and probably convulsed reign of Zachariah. An unsuccessful usurper, Shallum, is followed by the cruel Menahem, who, being unable to make head against the first attack of Assyria under Pul, became the agent of that monarch for the oppressive taxation of his subjects. Yet his power at home was sufficient to insure for his son and successor Pekahiah a ten-years reign, cut short by a bold usurper, Pekah. Abandoning the northern and transjordanic regions to the encroaching power of Assyria under Tiglath-pileser, he was very near subjugating Judah, with the help of Damascus, now the coequal ally of Israel. But Assyria interposing summarily put an end to the independence of Damascus, and perhaps was the indirect cause of the assassination of the baffled Pekah. The irresolute Hoshea, the next and last usurper, became tributary to his invaders Shalmaneser, betrayed the Assyrian to the rival monarchy of Egypt, and was punished by the loss of his liberty, and by the capture, after a three-years siege, of his strong capital, Samaria. Some gleanings of the ten tribes yet remained in the land after so many years of religious decline, moral debasement, national degradation, anarchy, bloodshed and deportation. Even these were gathered up by the conqueror and carried to Assyria, never again, as a distinct people, to occupy their portion of that goodly and pleasant land which their forefathers won under Joshua from the heathen. (Schaff Bib. Dic.) adds to this summary that "after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel, B.C. 721, the name 'Israel' began to be applied to the whole surviving people. No doubt many of the kingdom of Israel joined the later kingdom of the Jews after the captivity, and became part of that kingdom.--ED.)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Judah, Kingdom of - Meaning of Judah, Kingdom of in Smiths Bible Dictionary (Bible History Online)
Extent. --When the disruption of Solomon's kingdom took place at Shechem, B.C. 975, only the tribe of Judah followed David, but almost immediately afterward the larger part of Benjamin joined Judah. A part, if no all, of the territory of Simeon, 1Sa 27:6; 1Ki 19:3 comp. Josh 19:1 and of Dan, 2Ch 11:10 comp. Josh 19:41,42 was recognized as belonging to Judah; and in the reigns of Abijah and Asa the southern kingdom was enlarged by some additions taken out of the territory of Ephraim. 2Ch 13:19; 15:8; 17:2 It is estimated that the territory of Judah contained about 3450 square miles. Advantages. --The kingdom of Judah possessed many advantages which secured for it a longer continuance than that of Israel. A frontier less exposed to powerful enemies, a soil less fertile, a population hardier and more united, a fixed and venerated centre of administration and religion, a hereditary aristocracy in the sacerdotal caste, an army always subordinate, a succession of kings which no revolution interrupted; so that Judah survived her more populous and more powerful sister kingdom by 135 years, and lasted from B.C. 975 to B.C. 536. History --The first three kings of Judah seem to have cherished the hope of re-establishing their authority over the ten tribes; for sixty years there was war between them and the kings of Israel. The victory achieved by the daring Abijah brought to Judah a temporary accession of territory. Asa appears to have enlarged it still further. Hanani's remonstrance, 2Ch 16:7 prepares us for the reversal by Jehoshaphat of the policy which Asa pursued toward Israel and Damascus. A close alliance sprang up with strange rapidity between Judah and Israel. Jehoshaphat, active and prosperous, commanded the respect of his neighbors; but under Amaziah Jerusalem was entered and plundered by the Israelites. Under Uzziah and Jotham, Judah long enjoyed prosperity, till Ahaz became the tributary and vassal of Tiglath-pileser. Already in the fatal grasp of Assyria, Judah was yet spared for a checkered existence of almost another century and a half after the termination of the kingdom of Israel. The consummation of the ruin came upon its people in the destruction of the temple by the hand of Nebuzaradan, B.C. 536. There were 19 kings, all from the family of David. (Population. --We have a gage as to the number of the people at different periods in the number of soldiers. If we estimate the population at four times the fighting men, we will have the following table: King...Date ... Soldiers ... Population David...B.C. 1056-1015 ... 500,000 ... 2,000,000 Rehoboam...975-957 ... 180,000 ... 720,000 Abijah...957-955 ... 400,000 ... 1,600,000 Asa...955-914 ... 500,000 ... 2,000,000 Jehoshaphat...914-889 ... 1,160,000 ... 4,640,000 Amaziah...839-810 ... 300,000 ... 1,200,000
-ED.)
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
You mean to tell be these short legged Israelites and Assyrians
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew cpatives
look like Egyptians
SETI I, at Abydos
RAMESSES II, Karnak
RAMESSES II, Karnak
^^^ look at how long and thin they are compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews who look similar and the Assyrians and some of the Hebrews had big full curly beards that I'm not even sure the ancient Egyptians could grow
(assuming the Lacish art is realistically accuurate, it may not be)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
“A splendid synagogue from the Talmudic period was unearthed recently during excavations at Khirbet Hukuk in the northwestern Galilee on the site where a Jewish community existed between the fourth and sixth centuries C.E.“
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
From ANE
>"The details that do exist in the reliefs could ... have been drawn wholly >from written campaign accounts and interviews with partcipants from both >sides. In this context two things should be remembered. First, many >inhabitants of captured cities were deported to Assyria, so it should not >have been difficult to Locate Lachishites to interview; Barnett observed >that men wearing the costume of the Lachishites were shown among the >laborers in the bull-hauling scenes of Court VI and in the royal bodyguard >in the Ishtar Temple procession. Second, Sennacherib's palace was being >built and decorated at the same time the first few campaigns were being >conducted; the relief designers could draw on recent memories, unclouded by >time, to insure the accuracy of their immages. Thus we might expect to find >greater accuracy in the early campaign reliefs of Sennacherib than in those >of Assyrian kings whose palaces date to the later part of their reign." >(Russell 1991:208f)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
who wrote the sentence>
" the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like."
?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Notice these two bowing figures
the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same head cover and clothes. Comparing the retainers reveals the same thing plus same foot coverings, iirc.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style. Compare the below in light of this quote "compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews" as far as who's "shortest" and "stubbiest" nevermind the Assyrian artist's canon. And remember, in general, ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
courtesy of Mike111
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
courtesy of Mike111
this is too small to see anything
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Notice these two bowing figures
the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same hat clothes and shoes.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
I don't see how both figures having the same clothing puts their ethnicity in question. (although what you can tell by looking at either figure is limited) There is also cuneiform writing associated with the figures.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style.
This is odd. You are saying there is no dispute of accuracy and then you say don't refer to the art.
And no dispute in accuracy of what?
Art experts will tell you much of this art is stylized and is not intended to be realistic. For instance look at the Persepolis art. Most of the many ethnic groups have very similar features, mainly their clothing and hairstyle is different. They look too similar to be believably that similar beyond commonality of some near by regions
Look at various depictions of a given Egyptian king. Often they look like different people.
The purpose of this art cannot be assumed to be for people a couple of years later to have accurate record of stereotypical ethnic physical traits
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Remember, in general ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
that may be correct but do you have a source?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
^^^ If these are accurate these adults had the proportions of boys aged about 9 years old maybe
Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art. Did the people really have these child-like proportions or was it an artistic style? I don't know
The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
There is no difference in the features between the Assyrian and the Hebrews
The ethnicity of the features of the bearded captives is hard to say, It could be like a lot of people. They are different from the figures marked "Nubian" The other unbearded Hebrews marked "Hebrews being led into exile" appear to have a bulbous chin uncharacteristic of Africans, Swenet once said something similar about "concave facial profile" Would the bearded Hebrews
Is their hair afro or curly? I don't know. Again the Assyrian with the spear (?) has similar dotted hair an beard but the back portion of his hair straight. The scale of each dot or curl is to large to be natural afro hair. It's either an artistic representation of afro hair Or afro hair that has been dreaded or treated in some way or it's not afro hair but instead thicker strand curly.
I can't tell the the ethnicity of these people by looking at this. And their proportions are so child like it cast doubt over the whole thing. The fact that the Assyrian looks the same as the Hebrew except for hair suggest that like some of the Persepolis art they seem to have a generic human that they add different clothing and hairstyles to. Sometimes modern artists do this also
Now look at this Seti I
^^^ One would not know how close this was to how he looked but you can see the depiction of the human form is much more refined and precise compared to the Lacish figures
^^^ Is Black history ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
You've been writing this shyt for years now.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art. Did the people really have these child-like proportions or was it an artistic style? I don't know
Who made that "art depiction"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Is their hair afro or curly? I don't know.
For sure, it's not bone straight.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
You've been writing this shyt for years now.
Pardon the intrusion:
But when you treat such a ridiculous statement seriously, you actually give it credence. The ignorant, of which there are many, will think that it could possibly be true, a difference of opinion even.
As distasteful as it may be to you, the correct response is verbal abuse. The ignorant must know that Lioness does not even deserve a civil response - plus she obviously gets off on it, else why encourage it all the time, so no harm done.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
The Egyptian Coptic scripts speak of Moses as having dark skin. It is also stated that he had little horns on his head, so did Aaron.
Kinda' like this head priest of the Egyptian Coptic church. But I agree, you'll find this phenotype in the " Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia".
Btw, a lot of biblical talk is metaphorical.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh please I replaced the panarama sized image before you replied and you could've even zoomed it before I substituted the focus.
Don't try dodging a 1:1 comparison between Judahites and Kushites in Assyrian art of the same epoch.
How different are trunk thigh and leg lengths between the two in this art?
The 'stubbiness' you bank on seems an Assyrian art canon practice as is the height of the conquerors in comparison to the conquered.
above courtesy of Mike111
The Judahites and Kushites are clearly different in phenotype though there are resemblances. Both have nappy hair for instance, bushy if you prefer or lamb's wool. Hebrew texts use both of the last descriptions for the usual `Am Yisra'el hair type.
We've done all this before. Redundancy is a teacher. Feigned forgetfullness is a poor excuse.
There's no confusing the tight knotty hair of the Judahites for natural or artificially loosely curled straight hair. Even the beard and sideburns tell the same story.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Notice these two bowing figures
the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same head cover and clothes. Comparing the retainers reveals the same thing plus same foot coverings, iirc.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style. Compare the below in light of this quote "compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews" as far as who's "shortest" and "stubbiest" nevermind the Assyrian artist's canon. And remember, in general, ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
courtesy of Mike111
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The horns of Moses is due to a Xian mistranslation of the Hebrew text describing Moses as shining or as with light radiating from him
וּמֹשֶׁה לֹא-יָדַע, כִּי קָרַן עוֹר פָּנָיו
The root qrnקָרַן in this instance means shine not horn.
Moses knew not that the skin of his face sent forth beams
וּמֹשֶׁה and Moshe לֹא-יָדַע didn't know כִּי that קָרַן radiated עוֹר skin פָּנָיו his face
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Since you all seem interested in identifying Assyrian victims, why not try your hand at identifying who the Alammu are.
Gypsum wall panel relief: showing prisoners from the town of Alammu. In the lower register Assyrian soldiers and auxiliaries bring the heads of slain prisoners to an officer of the king's guard carrying a long staff and large round shield; they are followed by prisoners handcuffed to the belt, one being executed en route, and women with children who, judging from their dress, are of Syrian type. The scene is set between a river plentiful in fish and a row of trees and vines which point to Syria or a western land. The careful distinctions made in the equipment of the soldiery are interesting. The auxiliaries wearing crested helmets carry round shields which seem to be wicker-work, and long pikes; they wear the knee-covering represented by hatching. One type of bowman is bareheaded, with a decorated fillet, and has no corselet, and the one executing a prisoner has crossed straps to hold the short skirt. The prisoners have over their plain shirts a shorter cloak of some other material, apparently woven. In the upper register two scribes are recording, one on a tablet and another on a parchment (?) roll, heads brought by auxiliaries.
Their hair seems short and tightly curled like "Some" Hebrews, which has caused some people to guess that they were Hebrews.
But others, looking at other things say they are eastern people.
SENNACHERIB’S SIEGE, ASSAULT, AND CONQUEST OF ALAMMU Davide Nadali
The information available to us about the toponym of Alammu is provided only by theshort and fragmentary epigraph directly applied on the relief; on the contrary, the name of Alammu is totally absent in the Annals of the Second Campaign. The introduction of these short labels is meant to replace the long inscription that in the 9th-8th cent. BC divided the slabs into two registers: in the 7th cent. BC, all the surface of the slabs is occupied by the depicted events, while the text is relegated to simple and concise Unfortunately, the short epigraph applied just above the urban walls of the city is fragmentary, and the interpretation of the name is hypothetical. It would be one of the outposts conquered and destroyed by Sennacherib in his second campaign in which the Assyrian army advances in the impervious Zagros mountains, in the Diyala region as far as Ellipi in order to obtain the tribute of the Medes. The presumed identification with Alammu as an eastern town is partly supported by a letter of the time of Sargon II: it mentions the place of Alammu as the town where Urzana of Mu#a#ir takes refuge. Therefore, it would be a locality near Mu#a#ir in the Urartian-controlled territory north-east of Nineveh. The detailed representation of the fortress is also useful to define the place: the Ni-nevite sculptors carefully distinguish the architecture of the cities assaulted and con-quered by the Assyrian army, and the characteristic landscape of the region. Surely, the event of Room XIV does not identify a western centre, but a typical fortress of the eastern regions, well recognizable particularly thanks to the position on a peak and to the presence of a small river; the most significant aspects that help to mark the geographical region of Alammu are the architectural peculiarities of the urban walls, in particular the towers without windows and shields, characteristics of the western fortresses, but with the decoration of merlons on the top. Considering all these iconographical aspects, Alammu is clearly recognizable as a northeastern centre essentially due to three features:1. it has no projecting balconies, as, on the contrary, we may observe on the fortifications of the Palestinian city of Lachish;2. it stands on a higher position (on a mound) compared to the lower position of the Assyrian army;3. it has an arched entrance flanked by two towers. Finally, a careful observation of the military strategies applied by the Assyrian army during the siege contributes to the eastern characterization of Alammu: if we examine all the other conquests of eastern fortresses, it may be noted that the Assyrian army never uses artificial ramps in this context, but employs exclusively long ladders. This fact might yield a new insight on the different military tactics employed by the Assyrian army depending on the geographical region: it is possible that the ladders as well as the battering rams were included in the armaments kit beforehand, since the Assyrian army knew whether it had to employ the former or the latter in the siege operations or not. On the other hand, we should not rule out the possibility that these military devices could have been directly prepared in the battlefield.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ah, a good research project for someone who's really interested in it, maybe me when I have spare time.
My immediate uninformed response is maybe one of the people of what is now Beluchistan maybe ???
Are those all the scenes that are available?
Apparently -alammu is only the last part of the town name leading some to suppose it's Jerusalem.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
As we all know except for lioness, Black people have the greatest variety in genetic makeup.
Some Blacks have hair that grows extremely slowly and curly. This man has likely not cut his hair or shaved in years. Yet the hair is only the length that you see.
The Hebrew and Alammu depictions likely represent this type of phenotype.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Are those all the scenes that are available?
That I know of, yes.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Remember, in general ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
that may be correct but do you have a source?
Seti II tomb KV15 sketch in the Denkmaeler condensation of the Cattle of Ra BG:s30.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature. Raxter
^^^ this very big paper, thread on it a while back. I forget details, later
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
. Also in the Greek books Paul, the Judean founder of Christianity was mistaken for an Egyptian
Art not thou that Egyptian ...
Acts 21:38
This aligns with Greco-Latin thought
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
then there's the most popular Roman opinion that Judeans are an Ćthiopian subset.
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus -- The Histories Book V
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
^^^ This is my original remark
Notice how I didn't say
these short bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
I said
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Here I clarified my remark>>
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ If these are accurate these adults had the proportions of boys aged about 9 years old maybe
Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art.
This would correspond to zarahan's often quoted:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Northern Egypt near the Mediterranean shows the same pattern- limb length data puts its peoples closer to tropically adapted Africans that cold climate Europeans "..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
I don't know if this quote is comprehensive to all ancient Near East body proportions but I can't believe people are now pulling out the bible as if it's a historical document and going against zarahan's teachings
I allowed myself to get side tracked into stature. My first remark was an accurate observation
Afrter that I also I said
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
look at how long and thin they are compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews who look similar
^^when I said this it should have been assumed that I am not simply saying the people were short. I was saying in this Lachish relief that their legs were short compared to their bodies, close to or about the same length as their arms.
It's very obvious looking at these reliefs that they don't look like Egyptians because of these proportions and their full beards.
^^^ As for the hair on that Lachish relief you can't exclude any of the above possibilities definatively to by what it is depiciting
______________________________________________
^^^ look at the dotted portions of the Assyrian's hair and beard. How did they get like that? They look just like the dots one of the sets of figures that are believed to be maybe Hebrews.
I have looked for pictures of modern people who have beards like these Assyrians or Hebrews but I can't find any
^^^ this dude with the Philly beard doesn't have that big dotted look like on the reiief of the Hebrews or Assyrian. The texture is much finer, the curls much smaller in scale
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: [QB] Since you all seem interested in identifying Assyrian victims, why not try your hand at identifying who the Alammu are.
Their hair seems short and tightly curled like "Some" Hebrews, which has caused some people to guess that they were Hebrews.
But others, looking at other things say they are eastern people.
SENNACHERIB’S SIEGE, ASSAULT, AND CONQUEST OF ALAMMU Davide Nadali
Look at the Assyrian on the right, his beard It looks the same as the captive's
It's hard to say what kind of hair that actually is You can't pin down the the ethnicity.
Are they black African types? I don't get that impression
Bronze head of an Akkadian ruler, probably Sargon, Nineveh, c. 23rd – 22nd century BC. It might depict Sargon's grandson Naram-Sin Reign c. 2334 BC – 2279 BC
^^^ This is 23rd – 22nd century BC
Look at the beard. Is it asupposd to be natural hair or is it a beard that was artifically stylized. It's hard to say
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Go away lioness, no one is interested in pursuing stupidity with you.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Go away lioness, no one is interested in pursuing stupidity with you.
SEEN
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included. I will put them back in for the quote
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
-that a lot of different types of people could have hair like the sculpture.
and that you can't even tell exactly what type of hair that is supposed to be
and therefore you can't use this sculpture to say that these figures, supposedly Hebrew were necessarily black African type people, excluding other possibilities.
I'm not saying they are not black African type people. I'm saying that you can't say they are for sure or even be close to being sure.
You can only say black Africans are one of several types of people who might have that type of hair That is an honest objective observation
^^^ similarly you can't assume these similar figures are for sure African type people with "nappy hair" as one poster said
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included. I will put them back in for the quote
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
-that a lot of different types of people could have hair like the sculpture.
and that you can't even tell exactly what type of hair that is supposed to be
and therefore you can't use this sculpture to say that these figures, supposedly Hebrew were necessarily black African type people, excluding other possibilities.
I'm not saying they are not black African type people. I'm saying that you can't say they are for sure or even be close to being sure.
You can only say black Africans are one of several types of people who might have that type of hair That is an honest objective observation
^^^ similarly you can't assume these similar figures are for sure African type people with "nappy hair" as one poster said
Yes, left out the African American.
But what is it these other toe have to do with the subject? What is it your implying? You have them up every so what minute.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
But what is it these other two have to do with the subject? What is it your implying? You have them up every so what minute.
The subject of this thread is the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III located in Northen Iraq. People didn't like that subject so I allowed myself to participate in a change of subject to reliefs in Lachish, Israel
To make comparisons on hair type I compared the Lachish relief to an African Amercian, European Americans and a Beja
So why are you asking me about a specific two ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
I said African types
"black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
"African type" refers to a specific geographic location, Africa
Also, whether an African type person made it to some location 40-50,000 years ago is irrelevant to specific populations in Assyria or Lachish 2,700 years ago
Within that span of time people evolve adpatations to new climates, drift and isolation and admixture may also be at play
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
I said African types
Can you say what type of Human is NOT African type?
And how do you prove this when just about all science says that "ALL" Humans are Africans.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^On second though lioness, don't bother trying to answer, just go away. The stupidity of your posts is irksome and tiring. Doug M and I had a sensible conversation going, and it has been supplanted by your nonsense posts. I suspect your function is to obscure that type of discussion.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Can you say what type of Human is NOT African type?
And how do you prove this when just about all science says that "ALL" Humans are Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Speaking of seeing for myself, to aid that effort, I took the trouble to provide an Albino skull for comparison.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
I said African types
"black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
"African type" refers to a specific geographic location, Africa
Also, whether an African type person made it to some location 40-50,000 years ago is irrelevant to specific populations in Assyria or Lachish 2,700 years ago
Within that span of time people evolve adpatations to new climates, drift and isolation and admixture may also be at play
So, you imply that blacks never made it to Assyria, right?
I didn't mention 40-50,000 years ago, unless you're claiming that Assyria was that old. Anyway, ..."scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)", but caucasoid hair is?
So, did African types ever make it to Assyria?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Can you say what type of Human is NOT African type?
And how do you prove this when just about all science says that "ALL" Humans are Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Speaking of seeing for myself, to aid that effort, I took the trouble to provide an Albino skull for comparison.
Lioness, what is an albino skull?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Lioness, what is an albino skull?
You'll have to ask Mike it's his dumb ass term
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Lioness, what is an albino skull?
You'll have to ask Mike it's his dumb ass term
Oh, but you cited it for comparison.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I cited it for contradicition
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I cited it for contradicition
I don't understand how you can cite something for contradiction, if you don't know what it means in the first place.
Anyway, did African types ever make it to Assyria?
After the capture of -alammu, the prisoners are brought before the Assyrian king. Some Assyrian soldiers carry the heads of the dead. The king Sennacherib, was shown in his chariot, but this part is now lost. ca. 700-692 BC. From Nineveh, south-west palace. WA 124786-7
British Museum
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Repost,
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
So you're suggesting that these people you've posted depict ancient Hebrews? Or that they depict those from the hieroglyphs being taken as captives to Assyria?
Also, who is the guy with dark hair, you've posted him allot, a lot of times on many different subjects, connecting him to many different regions of the world, including Africa.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
repost
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included....
To make comparisons on hair type I compared the Lachish relief to an African Amercian, European Americans and a Beja
So why are you asking me about a specific two ?
By now I have explained myself very clearly
You have nothing to contribute to the topic
You will destroy any thread, going in circles , reposting over and over again, not advancing any knowledge but only trying to play a game of test the lioness
I can't go with you there
It's very boring and repetative
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Fragment of Assyrian relief from the palace of Arshurbanipal at Nineveh showing the storming of an Egyptian Town and capture of Nubians, 645 B.C., British Museum
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Enough already.
We show whole communities with nappy hair.
You show one individual here one individual there without showing that individual's community. Obviously because their hair type is outside the norm of their people, or even due to artificial treatment.
Our case is consistent
Your non-case is random
You want so desperately for the Lachish Jews not to have nappy hair.
You ignore historians who lived during the time of Judaea and ascribe Egyptian and Ethiopian ancestry for Judaeans in general and even write that members of another race are adapting the cultural heritage nationalizing as Geriym Ssadaqiym (converting to Judaea-ism).
"... other men, who, although of a different race, have adopted the laws of the people."
Cassius Dio Roman History 37:17:1
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
. Also in the Greek books Paul, the Judean founder of Christianity was mistaken for an Egyptian
Art not thou that Egyptian ...
Acts 21:38
This aligns with Greco-Latin thought
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
then there's the most popular Roman opinion that Judeans are an Ćthiopian subset.
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus -- The Histories Book V
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
look up jewfro in google images
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
look up phuckup in google
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Both pictures above are people from Lachish being deported by the Assyrians. These figures appear in the same scene, on the same path, with Assyrians in between them
Notice how the top figure at the ox cart has a skull cap-ish looking head gear and some kind of thing hanging down the side, perhaps a side lock, the figures in front perhaps women Are the figures in both pictures Hebrews? Historians aren't sure. Why do they look quite different ? It's odd If one group is not Hebrew that could not be determined with certainty, I've read the sources
___________________________________
Now let's look at the hair/beards of the lower figures for a moment
part of Assyrian's hair
captive figure's beard
^^^^^ Both of these parts of their hair or beards look the same. The dotted look, perhaps a bit of an artistic interpretation of hair not super realistic
However it is closer in scale to curly type of hair like the two people below:
The "dotted" look
^^^ this type of hair is not uncommon in Jews, it's called the "Jew fro" Curly hair is also not that rare in Europeans. It doesn't mean the Lachish figures are European.
It means you can't exclude a wide range of possibilites for their ethnicity based on the hair representation on these reliefs
____________________________________
The hair on those Lachish figures is not as close to nappy hair with a much finer texture, very small type frizzy curls like this >>
Nappy Nap
__________________________________________
and to use this relief to say for sure these figures formn Lachish are black African types is silly, you can't fool the lioness
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: repost
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included....
To make comparisons on hair type I compared the Lachish relief to an African Amercian, European Americans and a Beja
So why are you asking me about a specific two ?
By now I have explained myself very clearly
You have nothing to contribute to the topic
You will destroy any thread, going in circles , reposting over and over again, not advancing any knowledge but only trying to play a game of test the lioness
I can't go with you there
It's very boring and repetative
I'm asking what they have to do with the topic and the account? But you give some weird answers. While you removed this biblical citation.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
I keep asking you if African types ever reached Assyria, for some strange reason you keep avoiding this question. Yet, you keep posting pictures of "white people". On that note, did any Africans ever reach Europe during the Neolithic time?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Both pictures above are people from Lachish being deported by the Assyrians. These figures appear in the same scene, on the same path, with Assyrians in between them
Notice how the top figure at the ox cart has a skull cap-ish looking head gear and some kind of thing hanging down the side, perhaps a side lock, the figures in front perhaps women Are the figures in both pictures Hebrews? Historians aren't sure. Why do they look quite different ? It's odd If one group is not Hebrew that could not be determined with certainty, I've read the sources
___________________________________
Now let's look at the hair/beards of the lower figures for a moment
part of Assyrian's hair
captive figure's beard
^^^^^ Both of these parts of their hair or beards look the same. The dotted look, perhaps a bit of an artistic interpretation of hair not super realistic
However it is closer in scale to curly type of hair like the two people below:
The "dotted" look
^^^ this type of hair is not uncommon in Jews, it's called the "Jew fro" Curly hair is also not that rare in Europeans. It doesn't mean the Lachish figures are European.
It means you can't exclude a wide range of possibilites for their ethnicity based on the hair representation on these reliefs
____________________________________
The hair on those Lachish figures is not as close to nappy hair with a much finer texture, very small type frizzy curls like this >>
Nappy Nap
__________________________________________
and to use this relief to say for sure these figures formn Lachish are black African types is silly, you can't fool the lioness
So, can you explain why curly and nappy hair is not strange in Europe. But loose to straight hair is to Africa?
We can now conclude that original Jews had "nappy Afro hair" and were taken as captives by the Assyrians, correct? And that "jews" without this hair nappy Afro hair texture are actually fake jews.
I think we are getting there, it's a slow process thou.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: look up jewfro in google images
Google Assyrians and Ethiopians/ Cush.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
why are you quoting this?
the side topic was the invasion of Lachish not of Egypt As per the invasion of Egypt the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
why are you quoting this?
the side topic was the invasion of Lachish not of Egypt As per the invasion of Egypt the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire
And who exactly invaded the region Lachish and took the captives, yep the Assyrians...
And you keep avoiding the real questions. Of Ethiopians/ Cush and Assyrians. And wether Africans entered the region of Assyria.
You rather post pictures of random folks.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Lioness has become an impediment to the progress of the forum. Those few who wish to contribute worthwhile thoughts and materials are swamped by her endless string of nonsense posts. Somebody needs to find Sammy and get her out of here.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Daily Life of the Nubians By Robert Steven Bianch
_____________________________________
Lachich, city of Judea
The Lachish reliefs: Judean family deported from the conquered city
detail form above scene
Ancient Near Eastern Art By Dominique Collon
^^^ It could be true that these are a defeated Nubian garrison in Lachish bowing to Sennacherib
However I hesitate to agree because Nubians are portrayed at the palace of Arshurbanipal without beards (as well as later at Persepolis). I'm not sure about it
_________________________________________________________
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Trollkillah I shouldn't reply to you at all
I already said this
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
As per the invasion of Egypt the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire
so why do you keep asking me if Africans entered the region of Assyria. ?
In other words -yes- the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire, Assyria
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Lachish reliefs: A Judean family deported form the conquered city
Nice headware,
We can now conclude that ancient Hebrews actually had nappy Afro hear.
◄ Isaiah 37:9 ►
Now Sennacherib received a report that Tirhakah, the king of Cush, was marching out to fight against him. When he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah with this word:
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah I shouldn't reply to you at all
I already said this
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
As per the invasion of Egypt the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire
so why do you keep asking me if Africans entered the region of Assyria. ?
In other words -yes- the Assyrians were said to have brought some of the captives to various parts of their Mesopotamian empire, Assyria
I keep asking this because it's critical in the analysis.
So, we now have come to the conclusion that indeed Africans/ Cushitics/ Ethiopians were taken as captives to Assyria by Assyrians.
We have this in depiction and in recorded historical account, correct?
Isaiah 37: 8-13—Then Rabshakeh returned and found the king of Assyria fighting against Libnah, for he had heard that the king had left Lachish. When he heard them say concerning Tirhakah king of Cush, “He has come out to fight against you,” and when he heard it he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, “Thus you shall say to Hezekiah king of Judah, ‘Do not let your God in whom you trust deceive you, saying, “Jerusalem will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.” ‘Behold, you have heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all the lands, destroying them completely. So will you be spared? ‘Did the gods of those nations which my fathers have destroyed deliver them, even Gozan and Haran and Rezeph and the sons of Eden who were in Telassar? ‘Where is the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, the king of the city of Sepharvaim, and of Hena and Ivvah?’”
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I keep asking this because it's critical in the analysis.
So, we now have come to the conclusion that indeed Africans/ Cushitics/ Ethiopians were taken as captives to Assyria by Assyrians.
We have this in depiction and in recorded historical account, correct?
The Assyrians deported conquered peoples from their homelands as a hedge against rebellion. However they didn't necessarily deport them to Assyria itself (Northern Mesopotamia/Iraq), but rather, to other parts of the Assyrian Empire, which at its height, included everything from Elam/Persia west to Egypt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: we now have come to the conclusion that indeed Africans/ Cushitics/ Ethiopians were taken as captives to Assyria by Assyrians.
We have this in depiction and in recorded historical account, correct?
I don't know you'll have to research that
They may or may not have reached Assyria
Who the Assyrians did or did not transport to Iraq is irrelevant to who the Judeans were or the Assyrians themselves
I just read somewhere that they took captives into their empire generally but I also recall they took a captured Judean popualtion into Assyria
About Nubians specifically I don't know, what Mike said may be correct. I haven't seen the primary sources
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Daily Life of the Nubians By Robert Steven Bianch
_____________________________________
Lachich, city of Judea
The Lachish reliefs: Judean family deported from the conquered city
detail form above scene
Ancient Near Eastern Art By Dominique Collon
^^^ It could be true that these are a defeated Nubian garrison in Lachish bowing to Sennacherib
However I hesitate to agree because Nubians are portrayed at the palace of Arshurbanipal without beards (as well as later at Persepolis). I'm not sure about it
Why do you demand, or rather is it required for them to have beards necessarily?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
also the facial features and head shapes are different, the man below marked "Lachish" has a round head, the Nubians at right, oval shaped
Lachish man deported by Assyrians
^^^ here at left is the Lachish man being deported with his family, same as the head above. To his right Assyrians are holding two different looking tuype men horizontally. They have dotted looking hair like the other Lachish head above and I have read they are being flayed, having their skin removed
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: also the facial features are different
Lachish man deported by Assyrians
Yes, people tend to have facial differences. I am not going to object that.
Those btw are Nuba people..., and have different facial features, especially the first two, compared to the last two. You happen to show the last to for a certain purpose.
I also notice that the "Lachish man being deported", is being in a different position as from the others, "tuype men". Who are being slaughtered. Why?
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
So, now deal with several groups who had happy Afro hair, who were taken as captives to Assyria by Assyrians. That's the confirmation I was looking for.
I think we are getting somewhere.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
What evidence do you have that this man is a Nubian/Ethiopian?
A better question would be why do you continue to make false statements, even after you have been proven wrong many times?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
What evidence do you have that this man is a Nubian/Ethiopian?
A better question would be why do you continue to make false statements, even after you have been proven wrong many times?
I am aware you don't think this is an African
Trollkillah first put up this picture in the thread
Let's let him verify the ethnicity of it, he left out info on it
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, did African types ever make it to Assyria?
you think that's an African Trollkillah?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
So, now deal with several groups who had happy Afro hair, who were taken as captives to Assyria by Assyrians. That's the confirmation I was looking for.
I think we are getting somewhere.
On what do you base he is Ethiopian, instead of Nubian?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: also the facial features and head shapes are different, the man below marked "Lachish" has a round head, the Nubians at right, oval shaped
Lachish man deported by Assyrians
^^^ here at left is the Lachish man being deported with his family, same as the head above. To his right Assyrians are holding two different looking tuype men horizontally. They have dotted looking hair like the other Lachish head above and I have read they are being flayed, having their skin removed
quote: Nineveh, northern Iraq, Neo-Assyrian, about 700-681 BC
This alabaster panel was part of a series which decorated the walls of a room in the palace of King Sennacherib (reigned 704-681 BC). It tells the story of the siege and capture of the city of Lachish in 701 BC
The story continues from the previous panel (no. 9) of the relief. This section decorated a corner of the room.
Having been exiled from their city, the people of Lachish move through the countryside to be resettled elsewhere in the Assyrian Empire. Below them high officials and foreigners are being tortured and executed. It is likely that they are being flayed alive.
The foreigners are possibly officers from Nubia. The Nubians were seen as sharing responsibility for the rebellion. Much of Egypt at this time was ruled by a line of kings from Nubia (the Twenty-fifth Dynasty) who were keen to interfere in the politics of the Levant, to contain the threat of Assyrian expansion.
As Sennacherib's forces laid siege to Lachish, an Egyptian army appeared, led by a man called Taharqa, according to the Old Testament. He may be the later pharaoh of Egypt with the same name (690-664 BC).
Sennacherib's account claims that the rebels had called on the support of the kings of Egypt (Delta princes) and the Kings of Kush (Nubia). The armies clashed on the plain of Eltekeh. While Sennacherib claimed victory, he was still not able to capture Jerusalem.
The story continues on the next panel (no. 11) of the relief.
quote:Stone relief from the South-West Palace of Sennacherib
Nineveh, northern Iraq Neo-Assyrian, about 704-681 BC
Prisoners, probably from Phoenicia or Palestine, playing lyres
This is one small surviving fragment from a much larger composition. The scale effect on the background represents rough ground.
The musicians are often thought to have come from the state of Judah, though there is no evidence for this. The style of their dress is different to that worn by the people of Lachish (see for example, a panel showing the siege of Lachish). They are, however, almost certainly Western or Levantine in origin.
Music was clearly an important part of court life and Assyrian kings often refer to taking musicians into captivity as part of the deportation of defeated peoples. There is evidence of music in religious practice at an earlier period, but reliefs like this provide the first images of musical instruments in an ancient Near Eastern society that are not connected with a religious ceremony.
The musicians are playing lyres. They hold them more or less horizontally and use a plectrum. This type of lyre was possibly introduced into Assyria from the West in the first half of the second millennium BC. Only a few are known and the chronology and classification of the many forms of lyre in the Near East in the first millennium is neither complete nor certain.
J.E. Reade, Assyrian sculpture-1 (London, The British Museum Press, 1998)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You have a picture of an Ethiopian who could also be classified as Nubian, who is also beardless and a few hundred years after the Siege of Lachish is in Iraq bringing gifts of gold, ivory, ebony and slaves to the Persians not a naked captive as described in the Bible quote, that applies to an earlier period
What evidence do you have that this man is a Nubian/Ethiopian?
A better question would be why do you continue to make false statements, even after you have been proven wrong many times?
I am aware you don't think this is an African
Trollkillah first put up this picture in the thread
Let's let him verify the ethnicity of it, he left out info on it
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, did African types ever make it to Assyria?
you think that's an African Trollkillah?
A Nubian (or Kushite) with an elephant's tusk
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Good info lioness. What do you have on the Nubians as to their renown in chariotry and horses?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
But what is it these other two have to do with the subject? What is it your implying? You have them up every so what minute.
The subject of this thread is the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III located in Northen Iraq. People didn't like that subject so I allowed myself to participate in a change of subject to reliefs in Lachish, Israel
To make comparisons on hair type I compared the Lachish relief to an African Amercian, European Americans and a Beja
So why are you asking me about a specific two ?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Neither Nubians nor Ethiopians were conquered by the Persians. Consequently they did not bring tribute to the Persians.
Identifying that delegation as Ethiopians was begun by the lying racists at the Oriental Institute of Chicago University, who like most Albinos, seek to have the world believe that Blacks only existed in Africa.
Ignoring the actual history, they based their identification solely on the mis-identification of the Antelope which they thought was the African Okapi:
The Antelope is actually the Asian Nilgai:
NOTE THE POSITION OF THE HORNS RELATIVE TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD.
(The Okapi's horns are midway down the head, NOT on top of the head).
Other Persian artifacts make it plain that these short haired Asian people (probably the Maka) were very close to the Persians, and were considered central supporters of the Empire.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ I see the matchings.
quote:Stone relief from the South-West Palace of Sennacherib
Nineveh, northern Iraq Neo-Assyrian, about 704-681 BC
Prisoners, probably from Phoenicia or Palestine, playing lyres
This is one small surviving fragment from a much larger composition. The scale effect on the background represents rough ground.
The musicians are often thought to have come from the state of Judah, though there is no evidence for this. The style of their dress is different to that worn by the people of Lachish (see for example, a panel showing the siege of Lachish). They are, however, almost certainly Western or Levantine in origin.
Music was clearly an important part of court life and Assyrian kings often refer to taking musicians into captivity as part of the deportation of defeated peoples. There is evidence of music in religious practice at an earlier period, but reliefs like this provide the first images of musical instruments in an ancient Near Eastern society that are not connected with a religious ceremony.
The musicians are playing lyres. They hold them more or less horizontally and use a plectrum. This type of lyre was possibly introduced into Assyria from the West in the first half of the second millennium BC. Only a few are known and the chronology and classification of the many forms of lyre in the Near East in the first millennium is neither complete nor certain.
J.E. Reade, Assyrian sculpture-1 (London, The British Museum Press, 1998)
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[/QB]
Please identify the metal helmet
The left portion of the helmet hangs down, that is probably the back Therefore the curl at the top goes forward
The figures on the relief, on the other hand, have hats that may be made of cloth The flop down portion goes backward, there is no flower-like ornament and there is a crease like curved line, which may be a fold which does not appear on the metal helmet
I don't believe it's a match
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What fool believes all black people look alike? Asiatic blacks do not 1:1 resemble African blacks. Indeed, there's no 1:1 resemblance between various African blacks themselves.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Hellenizing Art in Ancient Nubia 300 B.C. - AD 250 and Its Egyptian Models ... By László Török, Laszlo Toro
Herodotus
Book 3 - THALIA
[3.97] Such then were the governments, and such the amounts of tribute at which they were assessed respectively. Persia alone has not been reckoned among the tributaries - and for this reason, because the country of the Persians is altogether exempt from tax. The following peoples paid no settled tribute, but brought gifts to the king: first, the Ethiopians bordering upon Egypt, who were reduced by Cambyses when he made war on the long-lived Ethiopians, and who dwell about the sacred city of Nysa, and have festivals in honour of Bacchus. The grain on which they and their next neighbours feed is the same as that used by the Calantian Indians. Their dwelling-houses are under ground. Every third year these two nations brought - and they still bring to my day - two choenices of virgin gold, two hundred logs of ebony, five Ethiopian boys, and twenty elephant tusks. The Colchians, and the neighbouring tribes who dwell between them and the Caucasus - for so far the Persian rule reaches, while north of the Caucasus no one fears them any longer - undertook to furnish a gift, which in my day was still brought every fifth year, consisting of a hundred boys, and the same number of maidens. The Arabs brought every year a thousand talents of frankincense. Such were the gifts which the king received over and above the tribute-money.
Three boys, one carrying possibly an elephant tusk, an adult Persian(?) man at right. These are possibly Nubian boys, however there are not five of them and they are not being led by a Nubian
Archers formed the core of Nubian armies that vied with Egypt for control over parts of the Nile valley, conquered Egypt in the 8th century BC, and confronted the troops of the Assyrian empire. The skill of Nubian archers made them valued members in the military forces of other lands. Egyptian texts as early as 2400 BC note Nubians in Egyptian armies. Representations of Nubian warriors appear in Egyptian tomb models, reliefs, and paintings in all periods of ancient Egyptian history. Nubian archers also served as warriors in the imperial army of Persia in the first millennium BC.
_____________________________________________
Dictionary of African Biography, Volumes 1-6 edited by Emmanuel Kwaku Akyeampong,
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What fool believes all black people look alike? Asiatic blacks do not 1:1 resemble African blacks. Indeed, there's no 1:1 resemblance between various African blacks themselves.
when you say "blacks" do you mean black haired people?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Please identify the metal helmet
The left portion of the helmet hangs down, that is probably the back Therefore the curl at the top goes forward
The figures on the relief, on the other hand, have hats that may be made of cloth The flop down portion goes backward, there is no flower-like ornament and there is a crease like curved line, which may be a fold which does not appear on the metal helmet
I don't believe it's a match
Thanks for proving that you don't know what the heck you're talking about, with those blather excuses.
It was a very popular headwear, especially the origin of this headwear makes it even more interesting.
These are indeed helmets, but there are also "soft versions" made from yarn (cloth). And is being warn with the tip to the front or either to the back. It's essentially the same headwear.
Helmet in the form of a Kedaris (the headdress popular among the nomadic peoples of Anatolia), with elaborately chased patterning imitating the quilted fabric, and rosettes on the sides and peak.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What fool believes all black people look alike? Asiatic blacks do not 1:1 resemble African blacks. Indeed, there's no 1:1 resemblance between various African blacks themselves.
when you say "blacks" do you mean black haired people?
Probably "blacks" with different hair color and texture.
You know, you can't categorize, that would just simply be discrimination and perhaps even racist, phhh..
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Hellenizing Art in Ancient Nubia 300 B.C. - AD 250 and Its Egyptian Models ... By László Török, Laszlo Toro
Herodotus
Book 3 - THALIA
[3.97] Such then were the governments, and such the amounts of tribute at which they were assessed respectively. Persia alone has not been reckoned among the tributaries - and for this reason, because the country of the Persians is altogether exempt from tax. The following peoples paid no settled tribute, but brought gifts to the king: first, the Ethiopians bordering upon Egypt, who were reduced by Cambyses when he made war on the long-lived Ethiopians, and who dwell about the sacred city of Nysa, and have festivals in honour of Bacchus. The grain on which they and their next neighbours feed is the same as that used by the Calantian Indians. Their dwelling-houses are under ground. Every third year these two nations brought - and they still bring to my day - two choenices of virgin gold, two hundred logs of ebony, five Ethiopian boys, and twenty elephant tusks. The Colchians, and the neighbouring tribes who dwell between them and the Caucasus - for so far the Persian rule reaches, while north of the Caucasus no one fears them any longer - undertook to furnish a gift, which in my day was still brought every fifth year, consisting of a hundred boys, and the same number of maidens. The Arabs brought every year a thousand talents of frankincense. Such were the gifts which the king received over and above the tribute-money.
Three boys, one carrying possibly an elephant tusk, an adult Persian(?) man at right. These are possibly Nubian boys, however there are not five of them and they are not being led by a Nubian
Archers formed the core of Nubian armies that vied with Egypt for control over parts of the Nile valley, conquered Egypt in the 8th century BC, and confronted the troops of the Assyrian empire. The skill of Nubian archers made them valued members in the military forces of other lands. Egyptian texts as early as 2400 BC note Nubians in Egyptian armies. Representations of Nubian warriors appear in Egyptian tomb models, reliefs, and paintings in all periods of ancient Egyptian history. Nubian archers also served as warriors in the imperial army of Persia in the first millennium BC.
_____________________________________________
Dictionary of African Biography, Volumes 1-6 edited by Emmanuel Kwaku Akyeampong,
We agree on a crossroad now.
So, on what do you base that these three "Nubian" figures were "boys"?
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Herodotus
Book 3 - THALIA
[3.97] Such then were the governments, and such the amounts of tribute at which they were assessed respectively. Persia alone has not been reckoned among the tributaries - and for this reason, because the country of the Persians is altogether exempt from tax. The following peoples paid no settled tribute, but brought gifts to the king: first, the Ethiopians bordering upon Egypt, who were reduced by Cambyses when he made war on the long-lived Ethiopians, and who dwell about the sacred city of Nysa, and have festivals in honour of Bacchus. The grain on which they and their next neighbours feed is the same as that used by the Calantian Indians. Their dwelling-houses are under ground. Every third year these two nations brought - and they still bring to my day - two choenices of virgin gold, two hundred logs of ebony, five Ethiopian boys, and twenty elephant tusks. The Colchians, and the neighbouring tribes who dwell between them and the Caucasus - for so far the Persian rule reaches, while north of the Caucasus no one fears them any longer - undertook to furnish a gift, which in my day was still brought every fifth year, consisting of a hundred boys, and the same number of maidens. The Arabs brought every year a thousand talents of frankincense. Such were the gifts which the king received over and above the tribute-money.
Three boys, one carrying possibly an elephant tusk, an adult Persian(?) man at right. These are possibly Nubian boys, however there are not five of them and they are not being led by a Nubian
quote: For many years now there has been a debate about whether the ancient peoples of the Nile Valley were 'black' or 'white'. Much Western scholarship, particularly in the early twentieth century, refused to accept that black peoples could have built such a great civilisation.
In 1930 for example, Charles Seligman (1873-1940), an English ethnologist who wrote a book titled 'The Races of Africa' said that the ancient civilisation of Egypt was created by a race he called 'Hamites', who he regarded as coming from Asia.
Some African historians, including the Professor of Anthropology at the University of Nairobi, Simiyu Wandibba, believe that European writers developed such theories to discredit Africa and make it easier for the continent to be colonised.
"In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries there were theories that Africa was inhabited much later than Asia and that the people occupying Africa today were the result of waves of migration from western Asia, the Middle East and the Far East.
I want to say that this is not true. But if you want to rule a people, you don't want to give them credit." Professor Simiyu Wandibba, University of Nairobi.
One of the main academic proponents of the view that the ancient Egyptian civilisation was founded by black Africans was the Senegalese historian Cheikh Anta Diop.
"Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilisation. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective nor unruffled. He is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic. The ancient Egyptians were Negroes. The moral fruit of their civilisation is to be counted among the assets of the Black world." Cheikh Anta Diop, taken from The African Origin of Civilisation.
In his two major works Nations Negres et Culture and Anteriorite des Civilizations Negres he profoundly influenced thinking about Africa around the world.
Cheikh Anta Diop argues that:
As humankind began in East Africa it was likely that people were black skinned.
People populated other continents by moving either through the Sahara or the Nile Valley.
In the period before the start of the great Egyptian dynasties the whole of the Nile river basin was taken over by these negroid peoples.
To support his theory, Diop cited the writings of several Greek and Latin writers who had described the ancient Egyptians.
The Greek historian Herodotus, for example, described the Colchians of the Black Sea shores as "Egyptians by race" and pointed out they had "black skins and kinky hair."
Apollodorus, the Greek philosopher, described Egypt as "the country of the black-footed ones" and the Latin historian Ammianus Marcellinus said "the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look."
Diop also argued that the Egyptians themselves described their race as black and that there were close affinities between the ancient Egyptian tongue and the languages of Africa.
The issue of the peopling of Egypt came to a head in 1974 when UNESCO hosted a conference in Cairo aimed at discussing the latest research.
The symposium provoked ferocious debate and many of Diop's theories were strongly challenged, however, the meeting concluded with the following statement, "the overall results…will be very differently assessed by the various participants."
The closing statement also pointed out that not all participants had prepared for the conference as painstakingly as Professor Diop or his academic ally Theophile Obenga of the Democratic Republic of Congo.
The argument still remains largely unresolved to the extent that UNESCO's General History of Africa is somewhat cautious in its final analysis of the issue.
"It is more than probable that the African strain, black or light, is preponderant in the Ancient Egyptian, but in the present state of our knowledge it is impossible to say more."
The issue was given more impetus with the publication in 1987 of Martin Bernal's Black Athena in which he argued that Classical civilisation had it roots deep in Afroasiatic cultures which had been systematically suppressed for mainly racist reasons.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
I said African types
"black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
"African type" refers to a specific geographic location, Africa
Also, whether an African type person made it to some location 40-50,000 years ago is irrelevant to specific populations in Assyria or Lachish 2,700 years ago
Within that span of time people evolve adpatations to new climates, drift and isolation and admixture may also be at play
Dedicated to the lioness productions team.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Good info lioness. What do you have on the Nubians as to their renown in chariotry and horses?
I don't think you'll ever receive an answer to that question.
The book seems interesting thou,
quote: Based on the unrivaled collections of the British Museum, this extensively illustrated book is a superb introduction to the art of the ancient Near East from the eighth millennium B.C. to Alexander the Great. Often described as the cradle of civilization, the ancient Near East was the birthplace of writing, monumental sculpture, and wheel-made pottery. Dominique Collon provides a unique view into this ancient world, from village settlements to grand palaces to burial sites.
Collon situates the Museum's most beautiful and interesting artifacts against their historical and cultural background. Among the works featured are painted pottery, figurines, cylinder seals, and stone amulets from the earliest village cultures before 3000 B.C. Also here are magnificent finds from graves at Alaca Huyuk in Turkey and the Royal Cemetery at Ur, including jewelry, musical instruments, and the famous Royal Standard. Sculpted reliefs from Assyrian palaces and Sasanian metalwork round out the collection. In her final chapter, Collon shows how art from the ancient Near East resonates in our own world today.
A welcome addition is a Mesopotamian chronology summarizing recent astronomical and textual data, compiled by C.B.F. Walker especially for this book. Based on the unrivaled collections of the British Museum, this extensively illustrated book is a superb introduction to the art of the ancient Near East from the eighth millennium B.C. to Alexander the Great. Often described as the cradle of civilization, the ancient Near East was the birthplace of writing, monumental sculpture, and wheel-made pottery. Dominique Collon provides a unique view into this ancient world, from village settlements to grand palaces to burial sites. Collon situates the Museum's most beautiful and interesting artifacts against their historical and cultural background. Among the works featured are painted pottery, figurines, cylinder seals, and stone amulets from the earliest village cultures before 3000 B.C. Also here are magnificent finds from graves at Alaca Huyuk in Turkey and the Royal Cemetery at Ur, including jewelry, musical instruments, and the famous Royal Standard. Sculpted reliefs from Assyrian palaces and Sasanian metalwork round out the collection. In her final chapter, Collon shows how art from the ancient Near East resonates in our own world today. A welcome addition is a Mesopotamian chronology summarizing recent astronomical and textual data, compiled by C.B.F. Walker especially for this book.
--Dominique Collon
Ancient Near Eastern Art
University of California Press, 1995
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ Mike prefers no African interactions outside of Africa
and he tries to hide it by blaming "albinos"
that is his ideology. that Africans didn't do shyt outside of Africa All people who look like Africans outside of Africa are not any more African than Tom Cruise It is his ashamed of being African illness
"black", the English word for Negro is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation
and is not, in recent thinking, a scientific term or useful to anthropology
"dark skin" is somehwat relative but it is free from the connotions and inaccurate term "black"
This is 2014, people are identified by genes rather than by skin color
A dark skinned person in Peru, Papua New Guinea or Angola might all have dark skin but nothing else in common.
Calling them "black" and other people "white" is as random as classifying people by hair, eye color or height and is simplistic and imprecise even when attempting to describe traits
In America black is a convenient social term mentiong someone of recent African descent, of the past several hundred years. I use it in this way
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, on what do you base that these three "Nubian" figures were "boys"?
height relative to other figures on the relief
If not boys they would be pygmies
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
So, on what do you base that these three "Nubian" figures were "boys"?
height relative to other figures on the relief
If not boys they would be pygmies
Well then there you have it, they would be Pygmies.
Now, take a good look at that image again. And look how the art is portrayed.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Mike prefers no African interactions outside of Africa
and he tries to hide it by blaming "albinos"
that is his ideology. that Africans didn't do shyt outside of Africa All people who look like Africans outside of Africa are not any more African than Tom Cruise It is his ashamed of being African illness
"black", the English word for Negro is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation
and is not, in recent thinking, a scientific term or useful to anthropology
"dark skin" is somehwat relative but it is free from the connotions and inaccurate term "black"
This is 2014, people are identified by genes rather than by skin color
A dark skinned person in Peru, Papua New Guinea or Angola might all have dark skin but nothing else in common.
Calling them "black" and other people "white" is as random as classifying people by hair, eye color or height and is simplistic and imprecise even when attempting to describe traits
In America black is a convenient social term mention someone of recent African descent, of the past several hundred years. I use it in this way
Oh what a disgusting twister of truth you are.
If the Russian in Siberia is White, and the Settler half way around the world in Chile is White, then why would Blacks in closer proximity not be Blacks?
The fact is that your only purpose here is to further confuse ignorant Blacks.
Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Mike prefers no African interactions outside of Africa
and he tries to hide it by blaming "albinos"
that is his ideology. that Africans didn't do shyt outside of Africa All people who look like Africans outside of Africa are not any more African than Tom Cruise It is his ashamed of being African illness
"black", the English word for Negro is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation
and is not, in recent thinking, a scientific term or useful to anthropology
"dark skin" is somehwat relative but it is free from the connotions and inaccurate term "black"
This is 2014, people are identified by genes rather than by skin color
A dark skinned person in Peru, Papua New Guinea or Angola might all have dark skin but nothing else in common.
Calling them "black" and other people "white" is as random as classifying people by hair, eye color or height and is simplistic and imprecise even when attempting to describe traits
In America black is a convenient social term mention someone of recent African descent, of the past several hundred years. I use it in this way
Oh what a disgusting twister of truth you are.
If the Russian in Siberia is White, and the Settler half way around the world in Chile is White, then why would Blacks in closer proximity not be Blacks?
The fact is that your only purpose here is to further confuse ignorant Blacks.
Yeah I am figuring that about lioness still.
Confuse, distort and put words in posters posts.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Mike prefers no African interactions outside of Africa
and he tries to hide it by blaming "albinos"
that is his ideology. that Africans didn't do shyt outside of Africa All people who look like Africans outside of Africa are not any more African than Tom Cruise It is his ashamed of being African illness
"black", the English word for Negro is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation
and is not, in recent thinking, a scientific term or useful to anthropology
"dark skin" is somehwat relative but it is free from the connotions and inaccurate term "black"
This is 2014, people are identified by genes rather than by skin color
A dark skinned person in Peru, Papua New Guinea or Angola might all have dark skin but nothing else in common.
Calling them "black" and other people "white" is as random as classifying people by hair, eye color or height and is simplistic and imprecise even when attempting to describe traits
In America black is a convenient social term mention someone of recent African descent, of the past several hundred years. I use it in this way
Oh what a disgusting twister of truth you are.
If the Russian in Siberia is White, and the Settler half way around the world in Chile is White, then why would Blacks in closer proximity not be Blacks?
The fact is that your only purpose here is to further confuse ignorant Blacks.
Mike, we aren't confused or ignorant. We are merely toying around with lioness team members.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Mike prefers no African interactions outside of Africa
and he tries to hide it by blaming "albinos"
that is his ideology. that Africans didn't do shyt outside of Africa All people who look like Africans outside of Africa are not any more African than Tom Cruise It is his ashamed of being African illness
"black", the English word for Negro is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation
and is not, in recent thinking, a scientific term or useful to anthropology
"dark skin" is somehwat relative but it is free from the connotions and inaccurate term "black"
This is 2014, people are identified by genes rather than by skin color
A dark skinned person in Peru, Papua New Guinea or Angola might all have dark skin but nothing else in common.
Calling them "black" and other people "white" is as random as classifying people by hair, eye color or height and is simplistic and imprecise even when attempting to describe traits
In America black is a convenient social term mentiong someone of recent African descent, of the past several hundred years. I use it in this way
That's a funny claim since you yourself claimed that Africans never moved out of Africa (during recent time), only 40 thousand years ago. Yet, Africa had multiple "back migrations, and they all were "Caucasians", all throughout the course of history.
And from your own statement you've just said that black is variate. And is found all over the globe. Meaning black is not solely within Africa diverse, but even more so outside of Africa.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
In this photo we can see detail clearer than what's been posted up to now. But even under lower resolution it amazes me anyone would compare this short and growing on the neck woolly hair on all Judaean males to never a community just random one here one there white people with big bushy hair type or style falls on the neck but doesn't grow on it.
In comparing these Jews to their Asssyrian conquerers, as I've stated before, their hair is nothing alike. Neither are their beards.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
That's a funny claim since you yourself claimed that Africans never moved out of Africa (during recent time),
that's a lie,
quote me saying that
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
you've just said that black is variate. And is found all over the globe. Meaning black is not solely within Africa diverse, but even more so outside of Africa.
that's a lie,
quote me saying that
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
C'mon we've gone over Eastern "Ethiopians" and the black people of Susa, even the opinion of some 19th century anthropologist, Dieulafoy I think, on the blacks of the Persian Gulf.
Stop the lies and melanophobic nonsense.
Asiatic blacks are in ancient world primary documents spanning from the Levant to India.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Looking at this it becomes even more remarkable that someone would think these people look more African than Near Eastern. And they may not even be native Judeans
^^^^ these are other figures, Lachish familes being deported by the Assyrians, but you don't see them on Egyptsearch. There's a reason for that. Many African Americans prefer to be Hebrew rather than West African. It's one of our ongoing shame based recongigurations, example, people descendants of places like Ghana or Benin calling themsleves "The Asiatic Black Man"
What one notices is that these deported familes don't have the dotted hair and are dressed differently from the dotted hair types. They appear to be a different ethnicity
So are all the above people even Judeans ? One might say it could be either type or both, yet one group is shown with families and unless I've overlooked something the curly haired figures aren't.
Some scholars have suggested that they might be foreign fighters who were helping to protect the city
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
this is a curly haired Elamite with dark skin from Persepolis
Winged sphinx from Darius' from palace at Susa.(Louvre)[
.
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Looking at this it becomes even more remarkable that someone would think these people look more African than Near Eastern.
Lying distorting snake.
I explicitly remarked on Asiatic blacks not African blacks.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Lying distorting snake.
I explicitly remarked on Asiatic blacks not African blacks.
"Asiatic black" is a meaningless race term
It's pure rhetoric
as if "black" means "a person with curly hair"
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What I never did before was scrutinize the first panel detailing the Assyrian armed forces which include mercenaries.
The men wearing head gear that accompany captive Lachish women and children may be an Assyrian detachment. Their headgear are near exactly same as Assyrian archers on
a slab showing the city's conquest. Up until now I have always wondered why defeated men would be allowed to wear military head gear. Are these men a mercenary munition unit?
The children near the lead porter may've just watched their fathers' execution and whose quite dead bodies are about to be desecrated. (2nd register of photo below)
To see the scene I'm about to describe in its context reference this sketch.
An other and primary deportee family starts behind the Elders of Lachish. Two courtier looking Assyrians face two nappy haired deportees leading three women and a child, followed by a nappy haired man driving an ox cart.
Two women, a youth, and a child in lap being comforted with a kiss, sit atop the goods in the cart. Could these be a couple of the city's leading families?
Not to lose sight of the fact the short nappy haired men clad only in jalabiya, submissive in pose, opposite enthroned Sennacherib, are the Elders (political leaders) of Lachish. They are Judahites since Lachish is one of the Kingdom of Judah's major cities.
Some earlier discussion on the beards the gist of which is there are no art works of groups of regularly bearded Egyptians or Sudanese. Maybe there are. If so please post (but not a solo like a worker in mourning or the like).
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Tell it too all the Greco-Latin writers who left us documentation on Asia's blacks from the eastern Meditterannean to the Indian Ocean.
Why aren't you nit picking the so-called Yehu on the Black Obelisk and questioning his hair and ethnic relations.
You are only critical when the ancient art represents a black. You are a melanophobe.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Lying distorting snake.
I explicitly remarked on Asiatic blacks not African blacks.
"Asiatic black" is a meaningless race term
It's pure rhetoric
as if "black" means "a person with curly hair"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tell it too all the Greco-Latin writers who left us documentation on Asia's blacks from the eastern Meditterannean to the Indian Ocean.
The term "Asia's blacks" is meaningless
it's pure political socially contructed rhetoric, not anthropolgy
this is 2014 not 1814
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
-go ahead make up something
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
See how the liar fumes over the fact that "Asia" has blacks of its own that are not African immigrees. Especially when one set of "Asia's" blacks are the Jews of the 2nd largest city of the Kingdom of Judah circa 700 BCE.
All those paintings of Eurowhite Jews with long flowing beards and all that non-sense are pure imagination as Sennacherib's reliefs make plain and evident with nothing but emotion to go against what they reveal.
Watching his antics is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. The melanophobe who is afraid of nappy haired Judahites but says nothing about the authenticity of strait haired "Yehu."
Your anti-black agenda is well known and at work here.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
More Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands.
zoom Note some men's garments resemble -alamu (sp).
An actual phot of the below will be appreciated
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] What I never did before was scrutinize the first panel detailing the Assyrian armed forces which include mercenaries.
The men wearing head gear that accompany captive Lachish women and children may be an Assyrian detachment. Their headgear are near exactly same as Assyrian archers on
On closer inspection they are not near exactly the same
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You wish
You think I'm trying to convince you?
Hah!
This is all for intelligent non-biased lurkers and surfers.
So continue your inane prattle and nattering.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] More Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands.
zoom Note some men's garments resemble -alamu (sp).
On closer inspection,
. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Enough diversion,
Recap of disliked Topic post
--the funny thing as how both the Shalmaneser III reliefs below and the Lachisch reliefs are unpainted
Yet people insist on applying skin color terms to them !!!!
It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.
Depiction of Hoshea King of Israel giving tribute to King Shalmaneser III of Assyria (2 Kings 17:3), on the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III from Nimrud (circa 827 BC) in the British Museum (London).
Neo-Assyrian, 858-824 BC From Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), northern Iraq
The military achievements of an Assyrian king
The archaeologist Henry Layard discovered this black limestone obelisk in 1846 during his excavations of the site of Kalhu, the ancient Assyrian capital. It was erected as a public monument in 825 BC at a time of civil war. The relief sculptures glorify the achievements of King Shalmaneser III (reigned 858-824 BC) and his chief minister. It lists their military campaigns of thirty-one years and the tribute they exacted from their neighbours: including camels, monkeys, an elephant and a rhinoceros. Assyrian kings often collected exotic animals and plants as an expression of their power.
There are five scenes of tribute, each of which occupies four panels round the face of the obelisk and is identified by a line of cuneiform script above the panel. From top to bottom they are:
Sua of Gilzanu (in north-west Iran) Jehu of Bit Omri (ancient northern Israel) An unnamed ruler of Musri (probably Egypt) Marduk-apil-usur of Suhi (middle Euphrates, Syria and Iraq) Qalparunda of Patin (Antakya region of Turkey)
The second register from the top includes the earliest surviving picture of an Israelite: the Biblical Jehu, king of Israel, brought or sent his tribute in around 841 BC. Ahab, son of Omri, king of Israel, had lost his life in battle a few years previously, fighting against the king of Damascus at Ramoth-Gilead (I Kings xxii. 29-36). His second son (Joram) was succeeded by Jehu, a usurper, who broke the alliances with Phoenicia and Judah, and submitted to Assyria. The caption above the scene, written in Assyrian cuneiform, can be translated
The tribute of Jehu, son of Omri: I received from him silver, gold, a golden bowl, a golden vase with pointed bottom, golden tumblers, golden buckets, tin, a staff for a king [and] spears.
J.E. Reade, Assyrian sculpture-1 (London, The British Museum Press, 1998)
T.C. Mitchell, The Bible in the British Museu (London, The British Museum Press, 1988)
D. Luckenbill, Ancient records of Assyria and (, 1927 (reprinted 1989))
________________________________
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Running scared?
More more more Lachish
To the fullest!!
Lachish: oldest authentic primary documentation of Israelites (Judah is a subset of Israel)
zoom Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
That's a funny claim since you yourself claimed that Africans never moved out of Africa (during recent time),
that's a lie,
quote me saying that
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
you've just said that black is variate. And is found all over the globe. Meaning black is not solely within Africa diverse, but even more so outside of Africa.
that's a lie,
quote me saying that
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
The Assyrians were African types?
Question..., did blacks ever make it to Assyria?
I said African types
"black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
"African type" refers to a specific geographic location, Africa
Also, whether an African type person made it to some location 40-50,000 years ago is irrelevant to specific populations in Assyria or Lachish 2,700 years ago
Within that span of time people evolve adpatations to new climates, drift and isolation and admixture may also be at play
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Trollkillah, will you tell this Tukular character to stop continuing to switch the thread topic
There is no need for this
This is obviously a straight haired black >>>
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: (iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
interesting, this was probably accompanied by gene flow in both directions,
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
Trollkillah, will you tell this Tukular character to stop continuing to switch the thread topic
There is no need for this
This is obviously a straight haired black >>>
What I will tell you is this:
Helmet in the form of a Kedaris (the headdress popular among the nomadic peoples of Anatolia), with elaborately chased patterning imitating the quilted fabric, and rosettes on the sides and peak.
Like you don't infiltrate threads with totally off topic posts. My posts here are very on topic.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: (iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
interesting, this was probably accompanied by gene flow in both directions,
You couldn't manage to stay on topic. Anyway...
You've f*ckedup again.
quote: Bedouins, Jordanians, Palestinians and Saudi Arabians are located in close proximity to each other, which is consistent with a common origin in the Arabian Peninsula25, whereas the Egyptian, Moroccan, Mozabite Berber, and Yemenite samples are located closer to sub- Saharan populations (Fig. 1a and Supplementary Fig. 2a).
[...]
--Bayazit Yunusbayev, Oleg Balanovsky et al.
The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people
Vol 466|8 July 2010|doi:10.1038/nature09103
Received 9 December 2009; accepted 21 April 2010. Published online 9 June 2010.
quote: It is argued that just as there is a common Afroasiatic language family, so too there is a common Afroasiatic family of religions. There is an inner logic to be found in myths, folk-tales, rituals, customs and beliefs as far apart as Yemen and Nigeria which go back to an ancient past shared by the Bible and the pharaohs.
Using the method of comparative mythology, the author sifts through the work of scholars - including anthropologists, religious historians, archaeologists and classical Greek writers and contemporary comments on them by professional Egyptologists - to build his picture of the Afroasiatic heritage, and how much of it is still with us in modern Western thought.
--Julian Baldick
Black God
The Afroasiatic Roots of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Like you don't infiltrate threads with totally off topic posts. My posts here are very on topic.
If the topic was Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
then, not all but most of your posts were off topic
anyway It's called the Black Obelisk
therefore it's pro black,
no need to worry about the straight hair. Trollkillah has taught me that such hair is indigenous to Africa
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Like you don't infiltrate threads with totally off topic posts. My posts here are very on topic.
If the topic was Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
then, not all but most of your posts were off topic
anyway It's called the Black Obelisk
therefore it's pro black,
no need to worry about the straight hair. Trollkillah has taught me that such hair is indigenous to Africa
Yep, nappy Afro hair is common in Europe too, right?
quote:Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions.These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.
You've f*cked up again.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
"The Asiatic Black Man"
If you look at the globe, and you are in America (where this definition was postulated), then Africa is eastern from America, hence Asia.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Looking at this it becomes even more remarkable that someone would think these people look more African than Near Eastern. And they may not even be native Judeans
^^^^ these are other figures, Lachish familes being deported by the Assyrians, but you don't see them on Egyptsearch. There's a reason for that. Many African Americans prefer to be Hebrew rather than West African. It's one of our ongoing shame based recongigurations, example, people descendants of places like Ghana or Benin calling themsleves "The Asiatic Black Man"
What one notices is that these deported familes don't have the dotted hair and are dressed differently from the dotted hair types. They appear to be a different ethnicity
So are all the above people even Judeans ? One might say it could be either type or both, yet one group is shown with families and unless I've overlooked something the curly haired figures aren't.
Some scholars have suggested that they might be foreign fighters who were helping to protect the city
Lioness chant:
October 7, 1971
Dear Mrs. Golda Meir,
Have just listened to the news on the TV, and heard that you had refused to allow a group of negroes to land and stay there. I am delighted. You have enough trouble without allowing a lot of negroes to latch onto you. They said they were 'Jews' but they are not. All they want is to make trouble. A Negroe is not a Jew. I am against negroes and Jews mating.
The one thing that Jews have, more than others, is brains. You will have to rely on brains to protect you. Jews, as a group, have no friends. They have to depend on each other. Don't let anyone push you around, and tell you what to do. You know what to do for yourselves, better than anyone else does.
Keep negroes away from the press and cameras. They want to stir up strife. They had a bad time for the past hundred years, but the Jews have suffered for thousands of years, and they don't go around looting, burning and murdering, and spreading venereal disease.
Let's face it, negroes are not civilized now. In time, they may be. Right now, they are so full of hate and venom, you can't expect anything from them but trouble, and a burden to Israel. Rich negroes won't go to settle in Israel. Only the poor trash. The Jews have been good to the Negroes, and all they got in return, was hate and abuse. Jews are fighting for their lives in Israel. They can't afford to take in any more new enemies.
My prayers are with you.
A friend Augusta Hermon
October 7, 1971
Dear President of Israel,
In tonight's television we saw that Israel was expelling Black people women and children. Israel did the right thing. I've been driving a Tonical here in San Francisco over thirty-five years now and I've seen what the black people will do to destroy and destroy.
...
Now in San Francisco thirty years ago. There was only about fifteen thousand Blacks in a population of whites 800,000. In these years I have witnessed how they bring drugs to white women a long long time ago. These people destroy cities and people. Our population is down to 700,000 people and 300,000 are black. There is never an hour, night or day that black people don't commit purse snatching, rape, robbery. I know because I've been robbed and when I saw thousands of photos of blacks, for only one year, my eyes were open also.
...
Oh yes I guess you now have read about school desegregation. White people all over the United States are upset over this. After bussing babies, and small children, out of their neighbors school, the black organization is now trying to prevent better education to bright school children. Israel should make a law, that when a black man commits any crime, he or she could be expelled to another country.
Don't wait or Israel will be sorry. My wife is Past President of Bnai Brith and now is Past President of Past Presidents of Bnai Brith. Although we will never be able to visit Israel, because I never can make enough for us to travel to Israel, our hearts and minds are for her greatness in ??? affair and at home. God bless Israel. I know that never a Jew will be called a man without a country.
Yours sincerely, David B. Dulberg 1967 32nd Avenue San Francisco, California 94116
October 9, 1971
Honorable Golda Meir:
I wish to write to you and voice my complete and overwhelming support of your police commander Col. Zvi Zeitlin, regarding a recent decision he made at Lod International Airport pertaining to Blacks seeking entry to your country.
I do not wish to assume the impertinence of telling you how to run your affairs of state, and hope you will forgive my zeal and pride of Israel in voicing my opinion.
As a Jew, I have always had to prove my worth the hard way - in school, in military service and in business in what is still basically an anti-Semitic society. I would like to think that somewhere in this world, in Israel, there is no anti-Semitism, and the adoption of American Blacks into Israel would destroy that dream also.
I have worked and been in business among Blacks for twenty years, and have yet to find any significant number of Blacks who are appreciative, and who are not anti-Semitic in spite of how kindly I may have acted toward them.
Please do not contaminate your beautiful country with unworthy, unappreciative dependent Blacks seeking to live off the fat of the land in a welfare state.
I have not had the opportunity to visit Israel as of this date, but am eagerly looking forward to visiting your country in the next couple of years. Nevertheless my pride of Israel compelled me to write this letter, and I hope you will accept it in the spirit it was written.
Respectfully yours, Shalom, Roy L. Levy Chicago, Illinois
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Running scared?
More more more Lachish
To the fullest!!
Lachish: oldest authentic primary documentation of Israelites (Judah is a subset of Israel)
quote: Later, when Sennacherib king of Assyria and all his forces were laying siege to Lachish, he sent his officers to Jerusalem with this message for Hezekiah king of Judah and for all the people of Judah who were there:
◄ 2 Chronicles 32:9 ►
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] What I never did before was scrutinize the first panel detailing the Assyrian armed forces which include mercenaries.
The men wearing head gear that accompany captive Lachish women and children may be an Assyrian detachment. Their headgear are near exactly same as Assyrian archers on
On closer inspection they are not near exactly the same
PHRYGIA, district in central Asia Minor, part of the Roman province of Asia after the death of Attalus III (133 B.C.E.), the last king of *Pergamum. A Jewish community was established in Phrygia no later than the end of the third century B.C.E. According to Josephus, Antiochus III (the Great) transported 2,000 Jewish families from Mesopotamia and Babylonia to "the fortresses and most important places" of Phrygia and Lydia. These Jews were to serve as military settlers in support of the Seleucid monarchy, as the inhabitants of Phrygia had risen in revolt (cf. II Macc. 8:20: Babylonian Jews in the service of the Seleucid army against the Galatians). Favorable terms were granted the Jewish settlers. They were permitted to live in accordance with their own laws, and each was allotted land on which to build and cultivate. Generous exemptions from taxes were also granted, and Josephus thus considers the episode ample testimony to the friendship of Antiochus toward the Jews. The Jews of Phrygia undoubtedly had strong ties with Jerusalem and the Temple. On two occasions large sums of money which had been gathered in two cities of Phrygia, Apamea, and Laodicea, to be sent to the Temple were confiscated in 62–61 B.C.E. by the Roman governor Flaccus on the charge of illegal export of gold (Cicero, Pro Flacco, 28:68). A number of Jews from Phrygia resided in Jerusalem during the first century C.E. (Acts 2: 10). Several important Jewish inscriptions in Greek have been discovered in Phrygia, mostly from graves. One, dated 248–49 C.E. warns that if anyone should desecrate the tomb, "may the curses written in Deuteronomy [cf. ch. 27–29] be upon him." Nearly all the personal names are Greek, but the epithet "Joudaeos" is used several times and a menorah is carved on one stone. A tomb from Hierapolis, of the second or third century, states that the fee for any future additional internment is a donation to the Jewish community in Jerusalem.
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Schuerer, Gesch, 3 (19094), 6, 12, 17; V. Tcherikover, Hellenistic Civilization and the Jews (1959), 287f., 501; Schalit, in: JQR, 50 (1959/60), 289–318; Frey, Corpus, 2 (1952), 24–38.
Mithra in a Phrygian cap 2nd cent. ad/c Rome, Italy (British Museum, London)
Marble bust of Attis wearing Phrygian cap 2nd cent. ad/ce (Paris)
_____________________________________________
Stones Crying Out and Rock-Witness to the Naratives of the Bible Concerning ... By Ellen Ranyard
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Trollkillah why have you posted racist letters to Golda Meir in this thread?
Why have you attached my name to them ? " Lioness chant:"
that's pure trolling and a very weak minded attempt to instigate an emotional reaction and derail the thread
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
PHRYGIA, district in central Asia Minor, part of the Roman province of Asia after the death of Attalus III (133 B.C.E.), the last king of *Pergamum. A Jewish community was established in Phrygia no later than the end of the third century B.C.E. According to Josephus, Antiochus III (the Great) transported 2,000 Jewish families from Mesopotamia and Babylonia to "the fortresses and most important places" of Phrygia and Lydia. These Jews were to serve as military settlers in support of the Seleucid monarchy, as the inhabitants of Phrygia had risen in revolt (cf. II Macc. 8:20: Babylonian Jews in the service of the Seleucid army against the Galatians). Favorable terms were granted the Jewish settlers. They were permitted to live in accordance with their own laws, and each was allotted land on which to build and cultivate. Generous exemptions from taxes were also granted, and Josephus thus considers the episode ample testimony to the friendship of Antiochus toward the Jews. The Jews of Phrygia undoubtedly had strong ties with Jerusalem and the Temple. On two occasions large sums of money which had been gathered in two cities of Phrygia, Apamea, and Laodicea, to be sent to the Temple were confiscated in 62–61 B.C.E. by the Roman governor Flaccus on the charge of illegal export of gold (Cicero, Pro Flacco, 28:68). A number of Jews from Phrygia resided in Jerusalem during the first century C.E. (Acts 2: 10). Several important Jewish inscriptions in Greek have been discovered in Phrygia, mostly from graves. One, dated 248–49 C.E. warns that if anyone should desecrate the tomb, "may the curses written in Deuteronomy [cf. ch. 27–29] be upon him." Nearly all the personal names are Greek, but the epithet "Joudaeos" is used several times and a menorah is carved on one stone. A tomb from Hierapolis, of the second or third century, states that the fee for any future additional internment is a donation to the Jewish community in Jerusalem.
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Schuerer, Gesch, 3 (19094), 6, 12, 17; V. Tcherikover, Hellenistic Civilization and the Jews (1959), 287f., 501; Schalit, in: JQR, 50 (1959/60), 289–318; Frey, Corpus, 2 (1952), 24–38.
Mithra in a Phrygian cap 2nd cent. ad/c Rome, Italy (British Museum, London)
Marble bust of Attis wearing Phrygian cap 2nd cent. ad/ce (Paris)
_____________________________________________
Stones Crying Out and Rock-Witness to the Naratives of the Bible Concerning ... By Ellen Ranyard
"Phrygian cap, often worn in north Syria and Asia Minor"
-- Antony Kamm (page 89)
The Israelites: An Introduction
Ps,
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah why have you posted racist letters to Golda Meir in this thread?
Why have you attached my name to them ? " Lioness chant:"
that's pure trolling and a very weak minded attempt to instigate an emotional reaction and derail the thread
It's pure reality. And deals very much with the subject being discussed here.
October 16, 1971
My Dear Mrs. Meir,
I was reading about the blacks that were turned away from Israel. Thank God for that.
Do your people realize what would or could happen to precious Israel if the terrible negroes would settle there? They breed like flies and stir up the most horrible crimes and I'm sure you're aware of how animalistic they are. So please try and work hard to keep them out.
My dream and desire is to be able to visit Israel very soon. God bless you.
Mrs. Melnick of Philadelphia
January 24, 1972
Get rid of the Black Israelites now!
Don't let them pollute Israel. They are bad for Israel.
If you keep them in Israel they will: 1) Be a 5th column 2) Demand welfare payments 3) Cause high crime, prostitution, juvenile delinquency and racial problems in Israel.
Keep all blacks from entering the country as immigrants. They will weaken Israel.
Dear Mrs. Meir:
Please expel the Black Hebrews of Dimona from Israel. It is the sensible thing to do.
These blacks are now a fifth column in Israel; they are a greet internal threat. They hated the Jews when they lived in the US and they hate the Jews even more now. As you know the Blacks hope to take over Israel by bringing more of their number into the country and by their high birth-rate.
Please, if you want Jews to continue to come to Israel and if you want Jews to settle and stay in Dimona - then get rid of the Black Israelites in Israel - expel all of them from the country now while they are a few hundred in number. In a few years they may be several thousand in number.
The Blacks have created slums in a great many American cities. American Jews in Israel can attest to this. That is why American Jews are coming to Israel. Please learn from America's mistakes. Keep the blacks out of Israel; send them back to America. We Jews don't want Israeli cities to turn into slums nor do we want to see Israeli women raped, robbed and beaten. Blacks in America are used to living on welfare. That is why the Blacks in Israel refuse to work; they want to live on welfare in Israel. What nerve.
Please, send the Blacks back to America or to another country. Anywhere but Israel. Let the Jews of Dimona live in peace.
Sincerely, A friend of Israel
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ see this? It's from a credible book, and the caption appears in the book as shown below it "Judaea family deported"
however I now believe that Tukular is probably right about this and the man is Assyrian, the book is in error as are other books.
I now think this because of the below Assyrian
In particular that in the crotch area a piece of cloth hangs down, it's part of the garment, That piece is very similar in both figures, I would have to say on that basis they are both Assyrian and the the dotted head figures below are therefore Judaea Judean not merely residents of Judea or a foreign garrison on behalf of the Judeans
Now moving on, revisiting the question of whether or not the Lachish figures above have afro hair or curly hair
As I said before we have to look at the Assyrian
Notice his features are very similar to the Judeans to his right
^^^Now look at his hair
The upper portion is straight. However the lower portion is dotted in exactly the same manner as the Judeans
So is the curly hair or more finely textured afro hair ? That portion looks exactly like the Judea's.
While I could see them being able to artificially curl their hair as per "curly hair" It doesn't seem likely that they could make one portion of their hair look like the more finely textured much more numerous, very small tight curls of afro hair aka "nappy"
For instance look at this Persian:
^^^ look at the scale of the curl, it's too large to be afro hair
His hair was probably naturally curly particularly at the ends So as we can see if these artists are being accurate it is the scale of curly hair rather than afro-kinky hair
How accurate to life the depiction in the Lachish reliefs is uncertain
^^^However If you render a sculpture with afro hair as in this Muhammad Ali bust accurately it looks like this, not those large dots of the Lacish figures/Assyrian and it's very obvious to those familiar with art
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
For the dumb ass above, the Assyrian art was from thousands of years ago, Muhammad Ali is from when? Time and culture are mandated for cultural expressions. Back then that was how they portrayed Afro texture hair
All you are good for is ignoring and denying black peoples history.
quote: This vase combines the distinctive neck of the so-called Shape VII oinochoe with a naturalistic head of a young black African boy. His curls and the central rosette were made separately. Vases in figural form were popular items in several Mediterranean cultures. The Etruscans produced both terracotta and metal versions.
Funny how you elaborate so detailed on European hair, while you don't know anything about African hair textures.
You've f*ckedup again.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ] For the dumb ass above, the Assyrian art was from thousands of years ago, Muhammad Ali is from when? Time and culture are mandated for cultural expressions. Back then that was how they portrayed Afro texture hair
All you are good for is ignoring and denying black peoples history.
Plus not all Afro hair has the same texture.
^^^^ this shows you don't know what you are talking about
You say not all Afro hair has the same texture and then below it you have a chart showing curly hair, that's dumb
Multi millions of people of many different ethnities and complexions have curly hair
you theory is all curly haired people are Africans, it's dumb
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ] For the dumb ass above, the Assyrian art was from thousands of years ago, Muhammad Ali is from when? Time and culture are mandated for cultural expressions. Back then that was how they portrayed Afro texture hair
All you are good for is ignoring and denying black peoples history.
Plus not all Afro hair has the same texture.
^^^^ this shows you don't know what you are talking about
You say not all Afro hair has the same texture and then below it you have a chart showing curly hair, that's dumb Multi millions of people of many different ethnities and complexions have curly hair
you theory is all curly haired people are Africans, it's dumb
Dimwit the beard doesn't match, dimwit your theory straight hair is caucasoid, it's dumb. Dimwit posting pictures of random folks to prove a point, is dumb. Dimwit, the lengths you go on a daily basis to erase black peoples history is hilarious. Next time, tell us again about your "race theories" and straight hair. LOL
quote:This vase combines the distinctive neck of the so-called Shape VII oinochoe with a naturalistic head of a young black African boy. His curls and the central rosette were made separately. Vases in figural form were popular items in several Mediterranean cultures. The Etruscans produced both terracotta and metal versions.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] More Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands.
zoom Note some men's garments resemble -alamu (sp).
On closer inspection,
.
It's ironic because the woolly haired husbands their hands are tied together. Those other male's hands are not.
Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
In most cultures prisoners and slaves got their hair cropped as a form of humiliation upon their broken manhood/power. The Bible symbolically and literally talks about this form of humiliation performed by the Assyrians.
Isaiah 7:20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River the king of Assyria to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by sero: In most cultures prisoners and slaves got their hair cropped as a form of humiliation upon their broken manhood/power. The Bible symbolically and literally talks about this form of humiliation performed by the Assyrians.
Isaiah 7:20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River the king of Assyria to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also.
quote: Ivory plaque of lioness mauling an African: the lioness is standing over her victim who has his knees drawn up and is lying back supported by his hands on the ground behind him. The lioness is biting his throat. The African wears a short kilt represented by gold leaf. The tight curls of hair are represented by gilt-topped ivory pegs. In the background are lotus and papyrus flowers, covered in gold leaf and inlaid with lapis lazuli and cornelian. There is also a spot of lapis lazuli inlay on the forehead of the lioness. On top of the plaque are two square mortice holes and an incised letter 'aleph' in West Semitic script, while on the base are two rectangular holes and another incised 'aleph'. This plaque was probably part of a piece of furniture.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Nice, these are all the scenes attached.
Thanks but there are 13 individual slabs from Sennacherib. What I found and never knew saw before this thread is the first tow slabs representing deportees by the score posted last page and updated now.
Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands.
BTW I do have an image of all the slabs depicting the booty of Lachish passing before Sennacherib but it's way too wide to post here and I won't ruin the readability of the thread by stretching it so wide you have to scroll side to side each and every line just to read a post as was done to my Beta Israel thread.
What I may do is post it in a thread of its own
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ thanks, Tukuler
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: ] For the dumb ass above, the Assyrian art was from thousands of years ago, Muhammad Ali is from when? Time and culture are mandated for cultural expressions. Back then that was how they portrayed Afro texture hair
All you are good for is ignoring and denying black peoples history.
Plus not all Afro hair has the same texture.
^^^^ this shows you don't know what you are talking about
You say not all Afro hair has the same texture and then below it you have a chart showing curly hair, that's dumb Multi millions of people of many different ethnities and complexions have curly hair
you theory is all curly haired people are Africans, it's dumb
Dimwit the beard doesn't match, dimwit your theory straight hair is caucasoid, it's dumb. Dimwit posting pictures of random folks to prove a point, is dumb. Dimwit, the lengths you go on a daily basis to erase black peoples history is hilarious. Next time, tell us again about your "race theories" and straight hair. LOL
And I did not make that scheme. Go figure!
quote:This vase combines the distinctive neck of the so-called Shape VII oinochoe with a naturalistic head of a young black African boy. His curls and the central rosette were made separately. Vases in figural form were popular items in several Mediterranean cultures. The Etruscans produced both terracotta and metal versions.
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
You've f*ckedup again!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
so according to you both these people have nappy hair, aka afros
and are therefore "black"
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:.................
...... .
Dimwit the beard doesn't match, dimwit your theory straight hair is caucasoid, it's dumb. Dimwit posting pictures of random folks to prove a point, is dumb. Dimwit, the lengths you go on a daily basis to erase black peoples history is hilarious. Next time, tell us again about your "race theories" and straight hair. LOL
And I did not make that scheme. Go figure!
........
You've f*ckedup again!
LOL...hot fake Muurish curls...
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
so according to you both these people have nappy hair, aka afros
and are therefore "black"
LOL at your "rebuttal". All you have is excessive excuses.
According to you blacks live(-d) also outside of Africa. And I'm not disputing it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I said African types
"black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
"African type" refers to a specific geographic location, Africa
Also, whether an African type person made it to some location 40-50,000 years ago is irrelevant to specific populations in Assyria or Lachish 2,700 years ago
Within that span of time people evolve adpatations to new climates, drift and isolation and admixture may also be at play
quote: quote: This vase combines the distinctive neck of the so-called Shape VII oinochoe with a naturalistic head of a young black African boy. His curls and the central rosette were made separately. Vases in figural form were popular items in several Mediterranean cultures. The Etruscans produced both terracotta and metal versions.
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
Repost for the lioness productions team.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Lioness production team f*cked up big time.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
so according to you both these people have nappy hair, aka afros
and are therefore "black"
this is not a rebuttal it's a simple question> Do both sculptures above represent afro hair ?
If you don't know please say so, so we can move on
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What is Afro hair? A 60's/70's style? What?
Africans mainly have cymotrichous bordering ulotrichous much ulotrichous (an extreme) some cymotrichous and even a little leiotrichous (an extreme) types or textures of hair.
Winners gladly build up from what went before. Losers start from Square One each generation and do not as a group honor what their elders have to pass down to them. This is due to their programming and refusal to do for self (at least in the realms of education) in the case of BAs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What is Afro hair?
nappy hair
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Afro is a hairstyle.
I have nappy hair but I do not have an Afro.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Afro is a hairstyle.
I have nappy hair but I do not have an Afro.
point taken
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Trollkillah, do both the sculptures above represent people with nappy hair ?
If you don't know please say so, so we can move on
(other folks, please let Trollkillah answer first, thanks )
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
The bottom figure has hair that is entirely curly/wooly.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
The bottom figure has hair that is entirely curly/wooly.
^^^ He has that same uncurled portion on the back (and top of his head) as the Persian, therefore the curled portions of his hair are artifical, correct?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^Amazing how normally sensible people can be suckered into inane conversations by lioness.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Amazing how normally sensible people can be suckered into inane conversations by lioness.
Amazing how you are scared of what is being revealed here
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
so according to you both these people have nappy hair, aka afros
and are therefore "black"
this is not a rebuttal it's a simple question> Do both sculptures above represent afro hair ?
If you don't know please say so, so we can move on
You have already answered your own question.
Hence your rhetoric.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "black" is a social construct term It is therefore what it means is open to widely varied interpretation and is not, in recent thinking, considered a scientific term ("nappy" isn't either)
^^^ He has that same uncurled portion on the back (and top of his head) as the Persian, therefore the curled portions of his hair are artifical, correct?
Blah blah...look at his beard. Plus the top of that strangers man's head can't even be seen.
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
^^^ Here's another one of the Elamite guard figures
Trollkilah, has his hair been artifically curled ?
Tukuler, has his hair been artifically curled ?
.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
It is normal for lioness to engage in silly nonsensical conversations, that's what lioness does.
But now I'm starting to wonder if all of you people are really Albinos from stormfront. The pictured ancient hairstyles are they same as is seen today when Blacks wear their hair long with a fillet. What is wrong with you people?
Likewise, there is nothing new about the Indian/Asian hairstyle above:
IT IS CALLED THE BANTU KNOT.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Lioness, I thought that by now you would have been able to photoshop a White girl with hair like this.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
... wonder if all of you people are really Albinos from stormfront.
. . .
The pictured ancient hairstyles are they same as is seen today when Blacks wear their hair long with a fillet. What is wrong with you people?
.
Thor's electifying thunderbolt ain't got nothin' on Shango's thunder and lightening and his wife Oya's devastating hurricane.
What's wrong with your eyes that you can't see none of the African people with woolly hair show any hint of waves or straightness behind the fillets only before them?
Anyway, people don't have to have woolly hair to be black. Re-examine the ancients' statements on the hair difference in general between the western and eastern Aithiopians. Identity of "Eastern Ethiopians" according to Herodotus thread Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ Here's another one of the Elamite guard figures
Tukuler, has his hair been artifically curled ?
.
The hair is woolly. Higher resolution reveals the textile covering held in place by a headband atop the Elamites' hair which, basing myself on other images of Elamites, I take to be naturally woolly.
ASSUR RELIEF 10TH-6TH BCE -- Assyrian officer presents a new king to the vanquished Elamites at Madaktu after the battle of Til Tuba. Stone bas-relief (7th BCE) from the palace of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, Mesopotamia (Iraq). British Museum, London, Great Britain
Also, unlike the Persian(?), the Elamite's hair touching his forehead is woolly. That Persian's hair at his forehead is wavy ending in artificial curl. This artificial curling process may have started in imitation of the elite Elamites of Susa.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
.
,
^^^ Here's another one of the Archers at Persepolis
Tukuler, has his hair been artifically curled ?
quote:Originally posted by Tukular
The hair is woolly. Higher resolution reveals the textile covering held in place by a headband atop the Elamites' hair which, basing myself on other images of Elamites, I take to be naturally woolly.
ASSUR RELIEF 10TH-6TH BCE -- Assyrian officer presents a new king to the vanquished Elamites at Madaktu after the battle of Til Tuba. Stone bas-relief (7th BCE) from the palace of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, Mesopotamia (Iraq). British Museum, London, Great Britain
Also, unlike the Persian(?), the Elamite's hair touching his forehead is woolly. That Persian's hair at his forehead is wavy ending in artificial curl. This artificial curling process may have started in imitation of the elite Elamites of Susa.
^^^ You describe these people as having wooley hair rather than curly. To me it could be curly or wooley. Curly hair is found in many ethnicities but wooley hair tends to be found primarily in a more limited range of populations, although there are exceptions.
The Elamites lived in what is now Iran. The figure at right we get a less common view of an Elamite with this same hair but no beard. To me, with his bulbous chin, his features do not resemble necessarily in particular one of the world's populations that has wooley hair. Do you agree?
quote:Originally posted by Tukular : The hair is woolly. Higher resolution reveals the textile covering held in place by a headband atop the Elamites' hair which, basing myself on other images of Elamites, I take to be naturally woolly.
I don't know what you mean by " the textile covering held in place" Look at that two figure close up, they have head bands only, their hair is showing above it at the top of their heads.
Maybe you mean this figure has textile covering the top of his head above the headband>>>
I think not but I suppose it's possible. Like with the other figures it appears to me he's just wearing a headband.
But never mind the top of his head, below the headband at the back of his head is a scoop shaped portion of hair that is not curled, it is the same color as the curled portion and does not look like cloth.
It looks just like this:
The painted relief above looks nearly like a painted version of this unpainted relief. I don't see how anybody could say that the curls on the unpainted relief are artificially made but the painted relief figure has real curls.
In my opinion the ASSUR RELIEF 10TH-6TH BCE you posted are as listed Elamites, however the painted relief, the '"Frieze of the Archers of the Guard" at Persepolis, Susa are not Elamites they are Persians.
So, in my opinion. the painted and unpainted reliefs are both Persian archers. Surprise, I also believe that hair of both figures hair is naturally curly (although not woolly.) The curls are big and loose rather than tightly curled and the wavy straight portions are either stretched out by the head gear , matted down or >the straight are the artificial parts. I had been calling them Elamites but no longer. Now I will just call them the "Frieze of the Archers". I am not absolutely sure but I now think they may be Persians rather than Elamites. Note also the ASSUR RELIEF Elamites do not have that scoop portion at the back of their heads like these archers. That doesn't necessarily make it wooley either. To me it could be woolly but it could also be just more tightly curled than the archers but not certainly woolly. So if all the archers are Persians and the Frieze of the Archers are also Persian, were the Persians dark skinned? -maybe, or maybe they had a range of skin tones They don't strike me as African types, Why should they, it's Iran. There are some blacks in Iran right now, however they they to be broad nosed and as far as I know trace their roots back to the Zanj or other Africans who came into to the region several hundred years or less. The medieval Islamic writer Al-Jahiz of Bashra may fhave been in part iof this ethnicity
However If we return to the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III figures, or the Lachish figures they are unpainted so color doesn't apply. As per Persians Manilius Astronomica many hundreds of year later, he describes tanned Greeks and neighboring Syrians thus:
quote:Quick witted Greece proclaims in the tanned faces of it's people the gymnasium and the manly wrestling schools. Curly hair about the temples betrays the Syrian.
yes, curly hair
More hundreds of years later Al-Jahiz states:
quote:They say : The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others
-woolly hair is a beautiful thing, dark skin is a beautiful thing. People with woolly hair can treat their hair in various ways to make it have a curly shape, that is larger curls then it's natural form or in some cases dredlocked. But once it is in this form and depicted on a sculpture, at this point you can't tell it apart from other etncities who also have culry hair that is not woolly.
Louvre remarks below
'"Frieze of the Archers of the Guard" at Persepolis Susa
quote:This decorative frieze of polychrome glazed brick shows an army, the men carrying spears, bows and quivers. Are they the royal guards of Darius I (522–486 BC), whom Herodotus called “the Immortals,” or might they represent an idealized image of the Persian people? The frieze is probably inspired by the brick friezes of Babylon, although the technique is different. That may be a legacy from the Middle Elamite Period, which saw the appearance of decoration in glazed siliceous brick. Archers on parade The Frieze of Archers had two symmetrical lines of soldiers, parading at a slow march. Each archer’s hands are joined together on the shaft of his spear, and hanging from his shoulders is a bow, its ends in the form of duck’s heads, and a quiver. The butt of the spear, held vertical, rests on the front foot, shod like the other in a laced ankle-boot. The archers wear the long Persian robe, braided and pleated over the legs, the outline of whose ample sleeve describes a curve towards the belted waist. They are bearded, and their thick curly hair is massed at the nape of the neck, held back by a diadem of beaten metal. Each brick is molded from a quart-based body; its outer face is rectangular, but the brick tapers towards the back, a little like a quoin, so as to leave room for mortar when the decorated faces are butted up against each other. The frieze combines low relief and color, with glazes of green, brown, white and yellow separated by fine cloisons of siliceous body. An inheritance from the Elamite period? This decorative frieze was certainly inspired by the Processional Way in Babylon, constructed by Nebuchadnezar II (604–562 BC), but the technique is different. The Babylonians used clay for their bricks, rather than the siliceous material employed here. The artists who worked for Darius may have revived a technique developed at Susa by the Elamites in the Late Elamite Period at the end of the second millennium. Polychrome brick decoration in Iran would have a great future in the architecture of the Islamic age. The Immortals? Although the British archaeologist W. K. Loftus, the first to excavate at Susa, had identified the main lines of the apadana, he had recognized only isolated motifs, palmettes and rosettes, from its glazed brick decoration. When Marcel Dieulafoy continued his predecessor’s work he discovered enough bricks to make possible the fairly convincing reconstruction displayed at the Louvre: two panels representing a procession of archers, framed by decorative motifs and surmounted by crenellations inspired by the facades of the rock-tombs of Persepolis and Naqsh-e Rustam. The rare inscribed bricks, on which one can still make out the name of Darius, were positioned in the middle. The archers were then assembled as separate panels. While the Lion Frieze was found on the ground at its original position in the East Court of the palace, the exact location of the Frieze of Archers is unknown, countless bricks and fragments having been found more or less all over the place when the apadana was excavated. Their number does suggest a hypothesis: the archers may have been positioned at regular intervals in several registers, over the height of the wall, as at Babylon. They would then have occupied a great part of the exterior walls of the palace, extending over hundreds of metres. How should such a colossal ensemble be understood? Were these men the ‘Immortals,’ the élite regiment of 10,000 men? Or might they rather represent an ideal image, repeated to infinity, of the ‘Persian people,’ a constituent element of the unified empire brought together under the rule of the king, to whom it might have been necessary to accord a special place in the old Elamite capital of Susa?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
^^^ Here's another one of the Elamite guard figures
Trollkilah, has his hair been artifically curled ?
Tukuler, has his hair been artifically curled ?
.
I have explained to you many times over the many years, that not all "Afro-texture hair" is as "equally kinky". Some is more loose/ soft other more tight, and there is variety in this.
Sometimes the hair grows out thin and becomes thicker, and sometimes the hair grows out thick and becomes thinner. Then you also have the texture which grows out equally.
You have excellent understanding on ling slick European hair, I'll give you that. But when it comes to ulotrichous, you barely have any understanding.
In case of your repetitive examples. The hair type is more of a loose type of kinky hair.
More like 3C
The above describes a variety, although within this there is also intermediate texture.
Lioness team got f*cked up again. And the above explains once again that you have never set foot in a "black hair salon".
Excellent picture.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
.
,
^^^ Here's another one of the Archers at Persepolis
Tukuler, has his hair been artifically curled ?
quote:Originally posted by Tukular
The hair is woolly. Higher resolution reveals the textile covering held in place by a headband atop the Elamites' hair which, basing myself on other images of Elamites, I take to be naturally woolly.
ASSUR RELIEF 10TH-6TH BCE -- Assyrian officer presents a new king to the vanquished Elamites at Madaktu after the battle of Til Tuba. Stone bas-relief (7th BCE) from the palace of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, Mesopotamia (Iraq). British Museum, London, Great Britain
Also, unlike the Persian(?), the Elamite's hair touching his forehead is woolly. That Persian's hair at his forehead is wavy ending in artificial curl. This artificial curling process may have started in imitation of the elite Elamites of Susa.
^^^ You describe these people as having wooley hair rather than curly. To me it could be curly or wooley. Curly hair is found in many ethnicities but wooley hair tends to be found primarily in a more limited range of populations, although there are exceptions.
The Elamites lived in what is now Iran. The figure at right we get a less common view of an Elamite with this same hair but no beard. To me, with his bulbous chin, his features do not resemble necessarily in particular one of the world's populations that has wooley hair. Do you agree?
quote:Originally posted by Tukular : The hair is woolly. Higher resolution reveals the textile covering held in place by a headband atop the Elamites' hair which, basing myself on other images of Elamites, I take to be naturally woolly.
I don't know what you mean by " the textile covering held in place" Look at that two figure close up, they have head bands only, their hair is showing above it at the top of their heads.
Maybe you mean this figure has textile covering the top of his head above the headband>>>
I think not but I suppose it's possible. Like with the other figures it appears to me he's just wearing a headband.
But never mind the top of his head, below the headband at the back of his head is a scoop shaped portion of hair that is not curled, it is the same color as the curled portion and does not look like cloth.
It looks just like this:
The painted relief above looks nearly like a painted version of this unpainted relief. I don't see how anybody could say that the curls on the unpainted relief are artificially made but the painted relief figure has real curls.
In my opinion the ASSUR RELIEF 10TH-6TH BCE you posted are as listed Elamites, however the painted relief, the '"Frieze of the Archers of the Guard" at Persepolis, Susa are not Elamites they are Persians.
So, in my opinion. the painted and unpainted reliefs are both Persian archers. Surprise, I also believe that hair of both figures hair is naturally curly (although not woolly.) The curls are big and loose rather than tightly curled and the wavy straight portions are either stretched out by the head gear , matted down or >the straight are the artificial parts. I had been calling them Elamites but no longer. Now I will just call them the "Frieze of the Archers". I am not absolutely sure but I now think they may be Persians rather than Elamites. Note also the ASSUR RELIEF Elamites do not have that scoop portion at the back of their heads like these archers. That doesn't necessarily make it wooley either. To me it could be woolly but it could also be just more tightly curled than the archers but not certainly woolly. So if all the archers are Persians and the Frieze of the Archers are also Persian, were the Persians dark skinned? -maybe, or maybe they had a range of skin tones They don't strike me as African types, Why should they, it's Iran. There are some blacks in Iran right now, however they they to be broad nosed and as far as I know trace their roots back to the Zanj or other Africans who came into to the region several hundred years or less. The medieval Islamic writer Al-Jahiz of Bashra may fhave been in part iof this ethnicity
However If we return to the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III figures, or the Lachish figures they are unpainted so color doesn't apply. As per Persians Manilius Astronomica many hundreds of year later, he describes tanned Greeks and neighboring Syrians thus:
quote:Quick witted Greece proclaims in the tanned faces of it's people the gymnasium and the manly wrestling schools. Curly hair about the temples betrays the Syrian.
yes, curly hair
More hundreds of years later Al-Jahiz states:
quote:They say : The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others
-woolly hair is a beautiful thing, dark skin is a beautiful thing. People with woolly hair can treat their hair in various ways to make it have a curly shape, that is larger curls then it's natural form or in some cases dredlocked. But once it is in this form and depicted on a sculpture, at this point you can't tell it apart from other etncities who also have culry hair that is not woolly.
Louvre remarks below
'"Frieze of the Archers of the Guard" at Persepolis Susa
quote:This decorative frieze of polychrome glazed brick shows an army, the men carrying spears, bows and quivers. Are they the royal guards of Darius I (522–486 BC), whom Herodotus called “the Immortals,” or might they represent an idealized image of the Persian people? The frieze is probably inspired by the brick friezes of Babylon, although the technique is different. That may be a legacy from the Middle Elamite Period, which saw the appearance of decoration in glazed siliceous brick. Archers on parade The Frieze of Archers had two symmetrical lines of soldiers, parading at a slow march. Each archer’s hands are joined together on the shaft of his spear, and hanging from his shoulders is a bow, its ends in the form of duck’s heads, and a quiver. The butt of the spear, held vertical, rests on the front foot, shod like the other in a laced ankle-boot. The archers wear the long Persian robe, braided and pleated over the legs, the outline of whose ample sleeve describes a curve towards the belted waist. They are bearded, and their thick curly hair is massed at the nape of the neck, held back by a diadem of beaten metal. Each brick is molded from a quart-based body; its outer face is rectangular, but the brick tapers towards the back, a little like a quoin, so as to leave room for mortar when the decorated faces are butted up against each other. The frieze combines low relief and color, with glazes of green, brown, white and yellow separated by fine cloisons of siliceous body. An inheritance from the Elamite period? This decorative frieze was certainly inspired by the Processional Way in Babylon, constructed by Nebuchadnezar II (604–562 BC), but the technique is different. The Babylonians used clay for their bricks, rather than the siliceous material employed here. The artists who worked for Darius may have revived a technique developed at Susa by the Elamites in the Late Elamite Period at the end of the second millennium. Polychrome brick decoration in Iran would have a great future in the architecture of the Islamic age. The Immortals? Although the British archaeologist W. K. Loftus, the first to excavate at Susa, had identified the main lines of the apadana, he had recognized only isolated motifs, palmettes and rosettes, from its glazed brick decoration. When Marcel Dieulafoy continued his predecessor’s work he discovered enough bricks to make possible the fairly convincing reconstruction displayed at the Louvre: two panels representing a procession of archers, framed by decorative motifs and surmounted by crenellations inspired by the facades of the rock-tombs of Persepolis and Naqsh-e Rustam. The rare inscribed bricks, on which one can still make out the name of Darius, were positioned in the middle. The archers were then assembled as separate panels. While the Lion Frieze was found on the ground at its original position in the East Court of the palace, the exact location of the Frieze of Archers is unknown, countless bricks and fragments having been found more or less all over the place when the apadana was excavated. Their number does suggest a hypothesis: the archers may have been positioned at regular intervals in several registers, over the height of the wall, as at Babylon. They would then have occupied a great part of the exterior walls of the palace, extending over hundreds of metres. How should such a colossal ensemble be understood? Were these men the ‘Immortals,’ the élite regiment of 10,000 men? Or might they rather represent an ideal image, repeated to infinity, of the ‘Persian people,’ a constituent element of the unified empire brought together under the rule of the king, to whom it might have been necessary to accord a special place in the old Elamite capital of Susa?
[/QB]
So, what did your favorite classic Greek writer Herodotus wrote about the Elamites?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Main Entry: ulot·ri·chous
Pronunciation: \-rə̇kəs\ Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Thank you for your additions. Don't you wonder what the problem is? Years ago when I first saw these reliefs, I immediately recognized that the ancients were using "Royal Crown" on their uncut tresses - he,he,he. As that is exactly what our hair looks like when brushed using that stuff.
Lioness I can understand trying to muddy the waters: but the African, is it that they are just so out of touch out there in the desert?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Trollkillah do you agree or disgree with Tukular?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
.
Trollkillah do you agree or disgree with Tukular that the above depicts artifiical curls or are you uncertain?
I know you won't answer this because you are a coward that copies what other people say
Go ahead spam some more, I don't deal with cowards
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111:
Lioness I can understand trying to muddy the waters: but the African, is it that they are just so out of touch out there in the desert?
what African? No one knows what you are talking about, try to be clear
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: the top of that strangers man's head can't even be seen.
Yepper and that's why my hi-resolution image showing that the Elamite's hair beard sideburn and forelock are all woolly.
you know, the one Lyin'Ass don't like and refuses to reference and acts like he can't see yet wants to turn his textile head cover under the headband into straight hair.
Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
He actually looks Dravidian.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by sero: He actually looks Dravidian.
^The hair texture of the people above is by far not the same wooly texture.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah do you agree or disgree with Tukular?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The top figure's hair is wavy at root with artificial curls at tip.
.
Trollkillah do you agree or disgree with Tukular that the above depicts artifiical curls or are you uncertain?
I know you won't answer this because you are a coward that copies what other people say
Go ahead spam some more, I don't deal with cowards
I don't know, but what I do know is this...and unfortunately you didn't show what your favorite classic Greek writer Herodotus wrote about the Elamites!
Anyway, repost for the lioness productions team.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
All you do is make up delusional fantasies.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by sero: He actually looks Dravidian.
.
Had you followed the link I gave earlier you'd've read Maspero's opinion about Perian Gulf, Indian, and Oceanic physical affinities.
eastern Aithiopia = southern Asia western Aithiopia = Africa
Elamites were a local people, not recent African immigrants nor Indian immigrants either.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Main Entry: ulot·ri·chous
Pronunciation: \-rə̇kəs\ Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran. Notice the headband Notice the hair at top Notice the BS that fools are promoting
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: the top of that strangers man's head can't even be seen.
Yepper and that's why my hi-resolution image showing that the Elamite's hair beard sideburn and forelock are all woolly.
you know, the one Lyin'Ass don't like and refuses to reference and acts like he can't see yet wants to turn his textile head cover under the headband into straight hair.
Tukular looses credibility here First he lies and says he introduced a hi-resolution image when in fact it is an image with terrible color resolution and he acts like introduced this image into the thread when it was I who first posted it in this thread on page 3
Now with no evidence whatsoever he lies and makes up a story about a "textile head cover " and to distract you from his lies he calls me " Lyin'Ass" like the high school student he is
I ask the readership
how is a piece of cloth going to do this:
(real version)
.
to this >>> ?????
^^^ I made this to show the shape, keyword shape, that a headband would make on a head of wooly hair > it forms a puff under it, not that scoop shape And if there was cloth hnaging below the headband it would be on top this rounded puff shape
How is a piece of cloth going to make that scooped out shape in the real version???
>>>> But let's say for the sake of argument that there is a head cloth there
Well, we don't know there's "wavy" straight hair under there do we ?
It might be wavy straight hair just like the other unpainted relief if a head cloth is hanging down, then truth be told you don't know what's under it
And this painted archer relief above is probably not even an Elamite, he looks like the unpainted archers
REAL ELAMITE
American Black folk are out of their minds
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
According to Herodotus these are a form of Ethiopian
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
dp
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Dumbass bitch
The textile covers the top of the head as well the back.
Do you think there's only one Elamite Immortal that ever got depicted?
It's over obvious what is hair and what is not hair.
Only fake thing 'round here is your fake ass.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Above, an Assyrian conqueror and Judaens captured in 701 BC in the town of Lachish in Israel We see that the portion on the Assyrian's hair marked "A" is the exact same texture as the Judaen's hair
which statement is true:
1) The Assyrian had woolly hair. It's marked "A" The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
2) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like woolly hair
3) The Assyrian had curly hair marked "A" It was not originally woolly, just curly. The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
4) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like curly hair but not curly hair which was originally woolly
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Dumbass bitch
There is no wavy / straight section of Judahite hair. The Judahites' hair is very short and all segments are woolly whereas the Assyrian's hair is straight / wavy except for the last few inches which are curled artificially. You nor anyone else has ever seen 10 - 12 inches of lank flop down hair suddenly become naturally curly for its last 2 -3 inches.
Curly and wooly are the same i.e., ulotrichous by both modern and ancient definition as the dictionary posted by Ish clearly states. The difference is the intensity of the nap.
Not trying to convince you because you don't care for the facts you only care to make anything even remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.
Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are surely not falling for your obvious face saving bullshit.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Dumbass bitch
The textile covers the top of the head as well the back.
Do you think there's only one Elamite Immortal that ever got depicted?
It's over obvious what is hair and what is not hair.
Only fake thing 'round here is your fake ass.
Tukular has reduced himself to lying now
He is pretending there is fabic hanging below their yellowish headbands that remarkably has no pattern, is the same color as their hair and it's putting in a big dent shape in their hair for some reason
And the idiot doesn't realize if this were the case it would be covering up a portion of hair that on other Archers in Persepolis reliefs is straight
So even if this magical "textile" existed we would not know what type of hair was under it anyway, this fool doesn't realize it
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You can fart out your mouth 'till the morning comes and it'll never change all this primary documentation the ancients living at the time left on record for us.
No hair lines on the top and upper back portions of the Elamite's head just a purplish piece of textile.
The Elamites hair sideburn beard and forelock all are woolly.
Oh how you hate that. Too too bad for you. It is what it is.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Curly and wooly are the same
yes, if you are stupid
otherwise you would know all woolly hair is curly but not all curly hair is woolly
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Take it up with Merriam-Webster Random House Collins English the Latins and the Greeks That's where what you call "stupid" originates
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Main Entry: ulot·ri·chous
Pronunciation: \-rə̇kəs\ Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin Ulotrichi (plural) division of humankind having crisp or woolly hair (from Greek oulotrich-, oulothrix having curly or woolly hair, from oulos curly, woolly + trich-, thrix hair) + English -ous; akin to Greek eilein to roll, eilyein to roll, wrap — more at trich-, voluble
: exhibiting ulotrichy : having woolly or crisp hair
You'd like to bark the world into your bullshit. Even the Wiki agrees one order of curly hair is kinky.
3b Curly (Tight Curls) Medium amount of curl. Can have a combination texture. 3c Curly (Corkscrews) Tight curls in corkscrews. The curls can be either kinky, or very tightly curled, with lots and lots of strands densely packed together.
Both are elliptical in cross section, it's only a matter of degree. Your melanophobic ass farts peppercorn as the only woolly hair. Phew, my how you stink. Move away from me when you pass your 'I will vehemntly deny any and all African-like qualities in "SW Asia" people' ignorance gas.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You can fart out your mouth 'till the morning comes and it'll never change all this primary documentation the ancients living at the time left on record for us.
No hair lines on the top and upper back portions of the Elamite's head just a purplish piece of textile (cloth).
The Elamites' * hair * sideburn * beard and * forelock all are woolly as this hi-resolution detail shot reveals.
Oh how you hate that. Too too bad for you. It is what it is.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ This is a close up of what scholars are confident is an Elamite from a larger scene Tukuliar posted. Elam was an ancient civilization centered in the far west and southwest of modern-day Iran.
Notice he doesn't look that similar to this archer, differences in the hair are obvious
(sorry for more good color quality photos)
^ Tukular has ZERO sources to back his claim that this man has anything other than a headband on his head
Scholars are not certain what ethnicity these archers are The hair on this archer, resembles this >
Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran. (notice that there is even a small row of curls along the forehead)
he's got the sidburns that Tukular keeps trying to BS on
and the point that he is still too thick to get, is that if there was cloth hanging down form that headband it would be covering up a portion of hair that on other very similar figures at Persepolis that have straight hair in that section while the rest of their hair and beards are curly
It is so very obvious
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.
Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because he doesn't care for facts he only cares to make anything even remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.
Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are surely not falling for his obvious face saving melanophobic bullshit.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.
Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because she doesn't care for facts he only cares to make anything even remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.
Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are surely not falling for his obvious face saving melanophobic bullshit.
He makes up a "textile" add on to a headband that has no scholarly source to support it yet calls it a fact
That is proof he's a lair
I think he knows he's lying because otherwise he would be quiet for a while looking for a source to back it up. But he knows he's bullshytting Some of these veterans are obsolete, need to be put out to pasture
He calls me "melanophobic" when the subject is hair, lol
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.
this type of certainty is a mark of foolishness
A more reasonable thing to say is you don't know if it's hair or not
--and again, if it's not hair then you don't know what type of hair is under it
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
As long as the Lyin'Ass says I'm foolish I know I'm on the right track!
It wouldn't matter to me what kind of hair Elamites had. What matters to me is factually reporting what is left on record. As far as I can make out from what is available the Elamites had woolly hair per the art from several sources not just one depiction looked at at low detail gritty resolution.
I'm not the one following ideology and making a head piece (whether textile or whatever) into hair strands to support a priori expectations.
When I find something anomalous I take it for what it is. No dogma. I don't support styled haired as natural hair (case of the Assyrians and Persians) nor do I seek to make Africans out of either Persians Elamites nor Assyrians.
Whatever the issue, if evidence is brought forth disconfirming any conclusion I've made I am known to precision my formerly held views to acknowledge and accept the up to date facts.
I want an authentic African Studies / anthropology / etc., related database not self-congratulatory patting self on the back bullshit no more true than the lies colonialist have spread to bolster their worldview and control of the world.
Uber African distortion is no better than uber European distortion
Both are distortion. "Tell the children the truth." no matter who doesn't like it nor the system they would maintain by a pack of lies built into their institutions (church, university, media, etc.)
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
According to Herodotus these are a form of Ethiopian
Yep, you've f*ckedup again. Now show us what your favorite "poster boy" Herodotus wrote about the Elamites.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Curly and wooly are the same
yes, if you are stupid
otherwise you would know all woolly hair is curly but not all curly hair is woolly
Yep, you're right not all curly is wooly, but curly can be wooly. And we are having a conversation on woolly hair texture, remember? So in that context curly and woolly are the same.
And yes, the hair texture above is thick and wooly as well.
^^^^ This is a close up of what scholars are confident is an Elamite from a larger scene Tukuliar posted. Elam was an ancient civilization centered in the far west and southwest of modern-day Iran.
Notice he doesn't look that similar to this archer, differences in the hair are obvious
(sorry for more good color quality photos)
^ Tukular has ZERO sources to back his claim that this man has anything other than a headband on his head
Scholars are not certain what ethnicity these archers are The hair on this archer, resembles this >
Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran. (notice that there is even a small row of curls along the forehead)
he's got the sidburns that Tukular keeps trying to BS on
and the point that he is still too thick to get, is that if there was cloth hanging down form that headband it would be covering up a portion of hair that on other very similar figures at Persepolis that have straight hair in that section while the rest of their hair and beards are curly
It is so very obvious
More of your baseless idiotic iterating rantings. And it really leads nowhere, just a bottomless pit. If it's "not a headband" according to you, then tell what it is?lol
quote:
The ancient city of Susa (biblical Shushan) lay at the edge of the Iranian plateau, not far from the great cities of Mesopotamia. A strategically located and vital center, Susa absorbed diverse influences and underwent great political fluctuations during the several thousand years of its history. When French archaeologists began to excavate its site in the nineteenth century, the astonishing abundance of finds greatly expanded our understanding of the ancient Near East. The artifacts were taken to Paris through diplomatic agreement and became a centerpiece of the Louvre's great collection of Near Eastern antiquities. These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.
Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay. Monumental sculpture was made in stone or bronze, and dramatic friezes were composed of brilliantly glazed bricks. Among the discoveries are tiny, intricately carved cylinder seals and splendid jewelry. Clay balls marked with symbols offer fascinating testimony to the very beginnings of writing; clay tablets from later periods bearing inscriptions in cuneiform record political history, literature, business transactions, and mathematical calculations.
A very important group of finds from Susa is made up of objects brought back as booty from conquests in Mesopotamia. These works, many of them the royal monuments of Akkadian and Babylonian monarchs—for instance, the great stele of Naram-Sin—are among the best known of all objects from the ancient Near East. Altogether, the exhibition presents more than two hundred objects found at Susa, produced over a period of about 3500 years. They come from all periods of the site's settlement, from it earliest history to its adornment as a major city of the opulent Achaemenid Persian empire.
Eighteen French and American scholars have contributed essays to this volume on subjects that include the history of art in ancient Iran from prehistoric settlement through the Achaemenid period; the history of the excavations at Susa; the development of writing; seals and sealings; royal and religious structures at Susa; objects brought from Mesopotamia; brick decoration; popular art; and cuneiform texts. Recent results of ongoing research into the archaeology of Susa are discussed. Analyses of specific techniques are included as well as reports on the conservation of objects. Each work in the exhibition is illustrated and fully described, with references to relevant publications.
Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre
Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)
Repost for the lioness productions team.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote:Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago. […]
Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).
"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan
Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710 doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.
Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because she doesn't care for facts he only cares to make anything even remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.
Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are surely not falling for his obvious face saving melanophobic bullshit.
He makes up a "textile" add on to a headband that has no scholarly source to support it yet calls it a fact
That is proof he's a lair
I think he knows he's lying because otherwise he would be quiet for a while looking for a source to back it up. But he knows he's bullshytting Some of these veterans are obsolete, need to be put out to pasture
He calls me "melanophobic" when the subject is hair, lol
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.
this type of certainty is a mark of foolishness
A more reasonable thing to say is you don't know if it's hair or not
--and again, if it's not hair then you don't know what type of hair is under it
Well not really, this individual seems to have a high dosage of melanin, who happens to have tick wooly hair as well. So yes, you're a melanophobic person.
Here the headwear is more clearly to see.
Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
I think in first line, art is more stylistic rather than realistic. On the other hand,ancient Egyptians never portrayed foreigners as a homogeneous bunch. Likely also with the ulterior motive in showing that they represent order and that non-Egyptians represent chaos.
I was always impressed by this pre-Bronze Age collapse Egyptian mural, showing Asiatics. As they are not portrayed homogeneous.
This sacrifice scene from Mari-Syria, also gives me a nonhomogeneous Asiatic vibe. The guy also looks Dravidian.
P.S. Probably most US-Citizen see themselves in everything ancient.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^
Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.
Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^
Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.
Trollkillah were the people of Susa long term residents of the Mesopotamia going back tens of thousands of years of years or were they Africans who settled there 4-5,000 years ago ?
It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.
Trollkillah, isn't it possible that this is a straight haired Black Anatolian?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bust, Roman-Ethiopian woman
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I'm writing this without having read anything posted since my last post.
First let me apologize to the Lioness for calling him a dumbass bitch. I was inebriated at the time. However I don't retract the Lyin'Ass epithet and will continue to sparingly use it when felt appropriate.
And yes he did introduce the Archer hi-res image although I did scour GOOGLE for Elamite images and that's how I found it. I tend to skim or dismiss most of the Lioness' posts without bothering to read them.
Painful as it was, I have taken time to read and digest his relevant posts on pp 4 & 5 up to # 000205. I notice his Louvre quote says that what I took for textile is actually metal. Apparently he overlooked that because afterward he continued to call it straight / wavy hair. The Louvre supports my position that it is not hair.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
their thick curly hair is massed at the nape of the neck, held back by a diadem of beaten metal. [...] The artists who worked for Darius may have revived a technique developed at Susa by the Elamites in the Late Elamite Period at the end of the second millennium. [...] Were these men the ‘Immortals,’ the élite regiment of 10,000 men? Or might they rather represent an ideal image, repeated to infinity, of the ‘Persian people,’ a constituent element of the unified empire brought together under the rule of the king, to whom it might have been necessary to accord a special place in the old Elamite capital of Susa?
Darius' so-called 'Frieze of the Archers' stands in the Elamite once capital city Susa, whence their tag Susian, and its execution appears of Elamite engineering.
Why have I been IDing the Archer as Elamite?
That goes back to my readings of various old books and some not so old popular ones. I have background but no longer have all the books I once owned, hence no ready reference as in my first couple of years here.
So I am not coming at this fresh. But sometimes having a background is a hindrance versus being fresh to the subject matter because without constantly revisiting the books recall can become iffy.
The Lioness wrote the Archer is Persian.
That is in keeping with Herodotus who says the 10,000 Immortals were all Persian (at that time Elamites weren't yet assimilated into the Persians but still were known as Cissians and Susians).
Instead of lured into debate mode I should've remained a discussant. Not rushing but taking time to do further research rather than rely on memory.
So I will have to look into why my only remaining ancient SW Asian art source, Views of the Biblical World, refers to that particular Archers as Elamite.
Maybe that's outdated. Until so proven I maintain they are Elamites. An other archer scene is identified as Medes in that book. I can't see a difference in the "Medes" hair compared to the Elamites there except they don't have forelocks (at the "pixel" resolution available to me).
In Assyrian and Persian reliefs many peoples spanning Asia Minor, Levant, Persian Gulf have 'blow' hair, i.e., * loosely woolly or * thick waves or * a combination of both that is compressed by headgear.
Many images of bare headed Assyrians, show straight / finely wavy hair at the root and most of the strand. It only ends curly at the shoulder and slightly above. I'm not a hairdresser but I've never seen woolly hair straightened at the root AND flopping way down THEN natural only at shoulder level.
Also even though some hairdoos indicate a national style not every individual in the nation would have the same texture of hair in general, something I never before considered until systematically reviewing the art for hair details over the hours.
Coming up: aerial view of one Persian's hair I wrote about years ago but never could scan and post -- I recently rebought the book it was in.
Apparently the authors of Views based themselves on sources more modern than Herodotus when labelling some Archers Elamites and others Medes.
A. T. Holmstead History of the Persian Empire Chicago&London: University of Chicago Press, 1948
Courtesy of K. E. Eduljee
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.
Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^
Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.
Trollkillah were the people of Susa long term residents of the Mesopotamia going back tens of thousands of years of years or were they Africans who settled there 4-5,000 years ago ?
You are hilarious, funny. While I already posted the below along. And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite, and for a fact we know that the Susa/ Elamite "in general" don't look like the modern people who settle that region nowadays. These questions need to be answered. But to answer your question, most likely it's a combination of both. Considering the post-Natufian settlements.
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Bust, Roman-Ethiopian woman
Yeah, it's beautiful isn't?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.
Trollkillah, isn't it possible that this is a straight haired Black Anatolian?
Could be, the headwear was common in the region (Northern part). Other than that the images tell nothing, as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,
quote:
This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front. The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters. Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.
Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period Southwestern Iran Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm) Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74) SEE COMPLETE RECORD .
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: [ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,
Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???
funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,
quote:
This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front. The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters. Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.
Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period Southwestern Iran Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm) Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74) SEE COMPLETE RECORD .
Ok, I'll help out with a close up on the center figure
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: [ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,
Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???
funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol
Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: [ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,
Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???
funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol
Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
Herodotus didn't write about Elam so why continue being silly ?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote: Oldest Hebrew Text Is Evidence for Bible Stories?
It's not known whether the Judeans or the Philistines controlled the strategic fortress overlooking the Elah Valley, which was surrounded by nearly 3,000-foot-long (700-meter-long) fortifications built of massive stones.
But Garfinkel believes the site was most likely the westernmost outpost maintained by the Kingdom of Judea, which controlled land in southwest Asia and Palestine and was a predecessor to the Kingdom of Israel.
For instance, pottery at the fortress is similar to that found at other Israelite sites, and there are no pig remains—an indicator that often distinguishes Israelite from Philistine sites.
The newfound Hebrew text has also added new evidence of Judean rule, since key words indicate the text is most likely Hebrew.
Garfinkel believes the Elah site and newfound writing could provide historic evidence of the United Monarchy in the tenth century B.C.
That's when King David is said to have united Judea and Israel, establishing a large kingdom that stretched between the Nile River in present-day Egypt and the Euphrates in Iraq, according to the Bible.
Though most researchers don't believe this kingdom existed, evidence from the site and pottery shard seems to support the idea of a strong central administration based in nearby Jerusalem, as detailed in the Bible, Garfinkel said.
"There is a big debate if the biblical tradition is accurate history or mythology written hundreds of years later … But this is the first time in the archaeology of Israel we have evidence that in the time of King David such heavily fortified cities were built."
ABC Evolution
The ancient text may also shed light on the evolution of the world's alphabetic languages.
"This is the first time that we have a Proto-Canaanite inscription dated in [the context of] an archaeological site from the tenth century B.C.," Garfinkel said.
"This is a major contribution to the understanding of writing in the world."
The evolution of alphabetic scripts, which had their origins in Proto-Canaanite some 3,700 years ago, was one of humankind's greatest intellectual achievements, experts say.
"This allowed everyone to read and write. Before this, Sumerian scripts and Egyptian hieroglyphs were very complicated writing techniques … only trained scribes could read and write in the ancient Near East," Garfinkel said.
Archaeological Doubts
Tel Aviv University archaeologist Israel Finkelstein, who is not involved in the Elah excavations, agreed the site is very important, but has significant concerns with Garfinkel's interpretations of the findings.
Immediately drawing ties between the site and the Kingdom of Judea is a mistake, he said—and it might well have been Philistine in origin.
Also, due to the small number of samples, the carbon-14 dating of the site is also not as precise as it should be, he added.
"We need to wait for more samples. It's not enough to date the site based on two [olive pits]," he said.
He also expressed doubts about the centerpiece of Garfinkel's findings—the text.
"I am prepared to predict that it will be very difficult to determine whether the text is, in fact, Hebrew. There will be evidence indicating various possibilities," he said.
"In the nature of its discovery, this [piece of pottery] is also not unusual. There is a group of late Proto-Canaanite [pottery shards] from the same chronological phase that have been found in various sites on the coastal plain—none of them were discovered in Judea proper."
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: [ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,
Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???
funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol
Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
Herodotus didn't write about Elam so why continue being silly ?
But Herodotus traveled to west Asia, didn't he?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,
quote:
This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front.
The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters. Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.
Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period Southwestern Iran Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm) Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74) SEE COMPLETE RECORD .
Ok, I'll help out with a close up on the center figure
I didn't ask for help, but since you're on this quest...you'll may explain what these figurines represent. From the Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period.
CISSIANS is a name for the Susians, the Elamite inhabitants of Susiana (Strabo 15.3.2; Stephanus Byzantius, s.v. Soűsa); the Cissians were mentioned by several Greek authors, the earliest of whom was Aeschylus, who called Susa (mégʾ ástu Sousídos “the great city of Susiana”) tň Kissíōn pólisma “the town of the Cissians” (Persae 120; cf. 17).
Herodotus provided many details on the Cissians
______________________________
wikipedia:
Kassites
Herodotus was almost certainly[citation needed] referring to Kassites when he described "Asiatic Ethiopians" in the Persian army that invaded Greece in 492 BC. Herodotus was presumably[citation needed] repeating an account that had used the name "Cush", or something similar, to describe the Kassites; the similar name "Kush" was also, purely by coincidence, a name for Ethiopia. A similar confusion of Kassites with Ethiopians is evident in various ancient Greek accounts of the Trojan war hero Memnon, who was sometimes described as a "Cissian" and founder of Susa, and other times as Ethiopian. According to Herodotus, the "Asiatic Ethiopians" lived not in Cissia, but to the north, bordering on "Paricanians" who in turn bordered on the Medes. The Kassites were not geographically linked to Kushites and Ethiopians, nor is there any documentation describing them as similar in appearance, and the Kassite language is regarded as a language isolate, utterly unrelated to any language of Ethiopia or Kush/Nubia,[9] although more recently a possible relationship to the Hurro-Urartian family of Asia Minor has been proposed.[10] However, the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.
[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.
_______________________
A fillet or circlet is a round band worn around the head and over the hair. Elaborate and costly versions of these eventually evolved into crowns, but fillets could be made from woven bands of fabric, leather, beads or metal. Fillets are unisex, and are especially prevalent in archaic to renaissance dress.
Now these were the nations that took part in this expedition. The Persians, who wore on their heads the soft hat called the tiara, and about their bodies, tunics with sleeves of divers colours, having iron scales upon them like the scales of a fish. Their legs were protected by trousers; and they bore wicker shields for bucklers; their quivers hanging at their backs, and their arms being a short spear, a bow of uncommon size, and arrows of reed. They had likewise daggers suspended from their girdles along their right thighs. Otanes, the father of Xerxes' wife, Amestris, was their leader. This people was known to the Greeks in ancient times by the name of Cephenians; but they called themselves and were called by their neighbours, Artaeans. It was not till Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae, visited Cepheus the son of Belus, and, marrying his daughter Andromeda, had by her a son called Perses (whom he left behind him in the country because Cepheus had no male offspring), that the nation took from this Perses the name of Persians.
The Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median. They had for commander Tigranes, of the race of the Achaemenids. These Medes were called anciently by all people Arians; but when Media, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.
The Cissians were equipped in the Persian fashion, except in one respect:- they wore on their heads, instead of hats, fillets. Anaphes, the son of Otanes, commanded them.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
CISSIANS is a name for the Susians, the Elamite inhabitants of Susiana (Strabo 15.3.2; Stephanus Byzantius, s.v. Soűsa); the Cissians were mentioned by several Greek authors, the earliest of whom was Aeschylus, who called Susa (mégʾ ástu Sousídos “the great city of Susiana”) tň Kissíōn pólisma “the town of the Cissians” (Persae 120; cf. 17).
Herodotus provided many details on the Cissians
______________________________
wikipedia:
Kassites
Herodotus was almost certainly[citation needed] referring to Kassites when he described "Asiatic Ethiopians" in the Persian army that invaded Greece in 492 BC. Herodotus was presumably[citation needed] repeating an account that had used the name "Cush", or something similar, to describe the Kassites; the similar name "Kush" was also, purely by coincidence, a name for Ethiopia. A similar confusion of Kassites with Ethiopians is evident in various ancient Greek accounts of the Trojan war hero Memnon, who was sometimes described as a "Cissian" and founder of Susa, and other times as Ethiopian. According to Herodotus, the "Asiatic Ethiopians" lived not in Cissia, but to the north, bordering on "Paricanians" who in turn bordered on the Medes. The Kassites were not geographically linked to Kushites and Ethiopians, nor is there any documentation describing them as similar in appearance, and the Kassite language is regarded as a language isolate, utterly unrelated to any language of Ethiopia or Kush/Nubia,[9] although more recently a possible relationship to the Hurro-Urartian family of Asia Minor has been proposed.[10] However, the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.
[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.
I think we are getting somewhere,
Susians was located in west Asia, so logically the Susa were referred to as Ethiopians from Asia. Not surprised there.
Limestone wall panel, incomplete; lower register, Battle of Til-Tuba (Battle of the River Ulai) relief; shows Assyrians defeating Elamites of southern Iran; battle scene on lower half; Assyrians attacking from left; critical events are picked out; execution of the Elamite King, Teumman and his son Tammaritu, river Ulai on right; upper register shows review of prisoners deported after campaign.
The King's Head Zainab Bahrani Iraq Vol. 66, Nineveh. Papers of the 49th Rencontre Assyriologique Internationale, Part One (2004), pp. 115-119 Published by: British Institute for the Study of Iraq
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
By now we can conclude that several ethnic groups lived in that region during the same period and over the span of time. And most of these populations had wooly hair texture and even dark skin complexion.
Yet, they manage to show this.
It just shows how they are actually hidding from the facts.
quote: History of Iran: Achaemenid Army
Achaemenid Army By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi
These life sized "Immortal Guard" in richly ornamental robes wear the twisted headband typical of native Iranians from Susa.The Achaemenian/Achaemenid Army is well known through descriptions by Herodotus, Xenophon, and Arrian as well as by illustrations on Persepolitan and Greco-Persian monuments. Of particular importance for the topic are the Greek representations of Persian warriors and the evidence of the so-called Alexander Sarcophagus from Sidon. The Persians whom Cyrus the Great united did not possess a professional army: as in days of old, the "people" of a region was represented by its backbone, the "military force," so the two words were used synonymously in one Old Persian term, kara (cognate with Lithuanian karias/karis "war, army," Gothic harjis "army," and German Heer "army,"), a sense still retained in the New Persian term kas-o kar "relatives and supporters."
At first the Achaemenid army consisted wholly of Iranian warriors, and even when other regions were subjugated, Iranian formed the nucleus of the imperial army. Darius the Great advises his successor: "If thus thou shalt think: `May I not feel fear of (any) other,' protect this Persian kara; if the Persian kara shall be protected, thereafter by the will of Ahuramazda happiness shall come down uninterruptedly and eternally upon this royal house". With the expansion of the petty kingdom of Persis into a world-empire embracing all Iranian groups from Central Asia to the Danube, a standing army was formed from Persians, Medes, and closely related peoples, and an imperial army was organized by incorporating warriors of all subject nations. Persepolitan representations, and official Persian economic and military documents ultimately used by Herodotus prove that the closer a nation was to the Persians, the more it shared in the domination of the empire by paying less tribute but contributing more soldiers. Thus, the Medes who had the second position in the empire furnished more soldiers than others and indeed many of the imperial generals were chosen from the Medes (Mazares, Harpagus, Taxmaspada, Datis, etc.). Then came the Sacians, Bactrians, Hyrcanians, and other East Iranian groups.
The general term for the professional army was spada. This consisted of infantry (pasti), cavalry (asabari "horse-borne," and occasionally usabari "camel-borne"), and charioteers (only the noblest warriors used the then obsolete but symbolic chariot), and a large number of camp followers. From the moment they met the Greeks, the Iranians incorporated subject or mercenary Greeks in their army. As the time went by, not only Iranian satraps in Asia Minor but also the King of Kings employed Greek mercenaries, each of whom received free board and a monthly wage (a gold Daric per month in 401 BCE). By the time of Alexander, these mercenaries had become a regular part of the spada and their leaders had been incorporated into Iranian aristocracy. They played a major role in Greco-Iranian cultural relations, and helped an eastward expansion of Greek culture.
The size of the imperial army was never as large as the Greeks exaggerated. Careful examination of topography, logistics, organization of the spada, and official battle orders enable historians to arrive at reasonable figures for Iranian forces. Thus, Xerxes' 3,000,000 fighting men or 2,641,610 soldiers and an equal number of attendants are reduced to 70,000 infantry and 9,000 horsemen; the 900,000-strong army of Artaxerxes II at Cunaxa was in reality no more than 40,000, and the 1,040,000 soldiers of Darius III at Gaugamela is brought down to 34,000 cavalry and some infantry. Unfortunately, historians have seldom paid attention to these overstatements, accordingly, their judgements of Iranian tactics, strategy, and motives have been impaired by faulty calculations.
The organization of the spada was based on a decimal system "far superior to anything on the Greek side" and was not employed in any Asiatic army until the Mongols. Ten men composed a company under a daθapati; ten companies made up a battalion under a θatapati; ten battalions formed a division under a hazarapati; and ten divisions comprised a corps under a *baivarapati. The whole spada was led by a supreme commander (probably spadapati, although a generalissimo with full civil authority was called karana [Greek karanos]), who was either the King of Kings himself or a trusted close relative or friend (e.g., Mazares the Mede led Cyrus the Great’s army and Datis the Mede that of Darius of the Great at Marathon). A characteristic of the Achaemenid period is that commanders and dignitaries participated in actual fighting, and many of them lost their lives in action.
The training of the Iranian nobility was arduous. As a youth, the Iranian was schooled-in companies of fifty-in running, swimming, horse grooming, tilling the land, tending the cattle, making various handicrafts, and getting accustomed to standing at watch; he would be trained in the arts of the chase (both afoot and on horseback), archery, throwing the spear and javelin, and of sustaining forced marches in unfriendly climate. At twenty he started his military profession which lasted till the age of The training of the Iranian nobility was arduous. As a youth, the Iranian was schooled-in companies of fifty-in running, swimming, horse grooming, tilling the land, tending the cattle, making various handicrafts, and getting accustomed to standing at watch; he would be trained in the arts of the chase (both afoot and on horseback), archery, throwing the spear and javelin, and of sustaining forced marches in unfriendly climate. At twenty he started his military profession which lasted till the age of fifty as a foot soldier or a rider. The elitist groups were trained for both tasks. Thus, Darius says proudly: "Trained am I both with hands and with feet. As a horseman I am a good horseman. As a bowman I am a good bowman both afoot and on horseback. As a spearman I am a good spearman both afoot and on horseback". The foot soldier carried a short sword (acinaces), a spear with wooden shaft and metal head and butt, a quiver full of arrows of reed with bronze or iron heads, and a bow about one meter long with ends formed in animals' heads, and a case which combined the bow-case and quiver-holder. A symbol of kingship and the Iranian national arm, the bow was held in the hand of the King of Kings on his tomb and coins. Battle-axe was also used, especially by North Iranians. For protection, the infantryman relied on his wicker shield (made of sticks evidently threaded through a wet sheet of leather capable of stopping arrows). The shield was either small and crescent-shaped or large and rectangular; the latter could be planted in the ground allowing the archer to discharge his arrows from behind it. Some guards carried the large "figure-of-eight" -shaped shield known as the Boeotian, while the Gandharans carried round shields not dissimilar to those of Greek hoplites. Some Iranians wore metal helmets, but only the Egyptians and the Mesopotamian contingents wore armour for body protection.
The elite infantry had variegated costumes: either the fluted hat, short cape over a shirt, pleated skirt and strapped shoes of the Elamite court dress, or the conical felt hat, tight-fitting tunic and trousers and boots of the Median cavalry suit. One division of the infantry comprised "one thousand spearmen, the noblest and bravest of the Persians" who formed a special royal guard; their spears had golden apples as butts from which they were called the Apple-bearers. As a prince, Darius served in this guard of spearmen under Cambyses. Their commander was the hazarapati of the empire, who, as the officer next to the emperor, possessed vast political power. All members of this guard fell at Plataea defending their position. One corps of the spada consisted of ten thousand elite Iranian foot soldiers, the so-called "Immortal Guard", whose "number was at no time either greater or less than 10,000". These had variegated costumes and acted as the Imperial Guards. "Of these one thousand carried spears with golden pomegranate at the lower end instead of spikes; and these encircled the other nine thousand, who bore on their spears pomegranates of silver".
The cavalry had been instrumental in conquering subject lands, and it retained its importance to the last days of the Achaemenid empire. The horseman was equipped more or less like the foot soldier; but he carried two javelins, one for throwing and one for fending-at least this was the case in Xenophon's time. Some wore metal helmets and padded linen corselets covered with metal scales. A Babylonian document dated to the second year of Darius II lists the requirements of a horseman as follows: a horse along with its girdle and bridle, a helmet, a cuirass of iron, a bronze shield, 120 arrows, a mace of iron, and two iron spears. There were also units of camel-borne troops, and some riding chariots and scythed-chariots, but these were very seldom effective against massed infantry. At Gaugamela 15 elephants were also present but their action is not recorded. Various divisions bore particular standards (Herodotus 9.59), but the imperial banner was a golden eagle with outstretched wings borne on a spear at the side of the commander-in-chief of the army.
Apart from the standing army, the rest of the levies were recruited when the need arose, and it took a long time, sometimes years, to muster a grand army. There were many Iranian garrisons in important centres of the empire, and satraps and governors also had their guards and local levies, but these could not be depleted to form an army on short notice because the danger of revolt was always present. Tribal troops, especially from East Iran, were more readily available. Levies were summoned to a recruiting station (*handaisa) where they were marshaled and reviewed. Campaigns usually started in early spring. Provisions were stored at various magazines along the route of the army, and were also brought with it in baggage-trains. Royal and religious emblems accompanied the centre of the army where the commander had his position: the eagle standard and the holy fire in portable fire-holders attended by Magi chanting hymns, and the sacred chariots of Miθra, Ahura Mazda and others. Mounted scouts were sent in advance to watch the enemy's movements. There was also an excellent system of communication: couriers on the royal road changed horses at short intervals and speedily conveyed their messages to their destinations; also by their light and mirror signals the King of Kings in Susa and Ecbatana received the news from the whole empire-it is claimed-on the same day. Fire signals communicating the news from towers and heights were widely used with good results. Fortified gates were set up in narrow passes leading into various provinces not only for custom checks but also for stopping the advance of an enemy.
The Iranians disliked night marches and did not attack at night; their daily marches were, however, in slow pace because of the heavy baggage-train which often comprised litters for conveying the wives and concubines of the commanders. When night fell, they encamped in a flat area, and if they were approaching the enemy, they dug a ditch and set up ramps of sand-bags around it. Rivers were forded by using rafts, boat-bridges, or inflated skins or simply by riding across on horses and camels.
Before the battle (hamarana), a council of war was held and plans of action discussed. The line of battle was usually drawn up as follows: the foot archers were stationed in the front, flanked by cavalry and supported by light-armed and heavier-armed infantry. The commander-in-chief occupied the centre, observing the lines and directing the actions from an elevated point, where he was best protected, and his orders were received by both wings at the same time. When the battle was joined the archers discharged their arrows, and the slingers threw their stone missiles (lead missiles with longer range became fashionable from 400 BCE, and an actual lead bullet bearing the name of Tissaphernes in Greek has survived). The aim was to throw the enemy lines into confusion. The effective range of the Persian archer was about 120 yards. Then the heavier infantry with spear and sword moved in, supported by cavalry attacking the flanks.
These tactics worked well against Asiatic armies, but failed against heavy-armed Greek infantry (hoplites) and Macedonian phalanxes: the arrows were simply stopped by the body armour and the huge shield of the hoplites, and once the hand to hand combat began, no amount of personal bravery could compensate for the Iranians' lack of armour and their inferior offensive weapons. At the battle of Plataea, for instance, a fierce hand-to-hand combat raged between the Iranians and the Greek hoplites: The Iranians "many times seized hold of the Greek spears and broke them; for in boldness and warlike spirit the Iranians were not a whit inferior to the Greeks; but they were without shields, untrained, and far below the enemy in respect of skill in arms. Sometimes singly, sometimes in bodies of ten, now fewer and now more in number, they dashed forward upon the Spartan ranks, and so perished". Another weakness of the Iranians was the attitude towards their commander: with an able and farsighted general, they displayed unsurpassed courage, but the same men took to disorderly flight as soon as the commander was killed or forced to flee. Knowing that the King of Kings was the heart of his army, Cyrus the Younger ordered Clearchus-his Greek mercenary leader-to attack the centre where the King of Kings was stationed: "and if," he said, "we are victorious there, our whole task [of defeating his army] is accomplished,".
Cyrus the Younger who knew both the Iranian and Greek armies, tactics and strategies, nearly succeeded in removing Iran's military weaknesses. He supplemented his Asiatic force with a large army of Greek hoplites, formed battalions of heavy cavalry which wore helmets. Breast-plates, and thigh-guards (this protected the sides of the horse as well), and carried a Greek sword in addition to their own arms; their horses too were protected with frontlets and breast-pieces. He made effective use of the coordination of heavy cavalry and heavy infantry-an art which later Agesilaus and especially Alexander employed to the fullest and with the best results. It must be remembered, however, that the effectiveness of the Persian shock cavalry was severely hampered by the lack of stirrup and the saddle. "Encumbered with a corslet of scale armour and poised precariously atop his steed, the horseman kept his seat only through the pressure of his knees. He will have been in serious danger of being unhorsed whenever he delivered a blow with his saber or came within reach of an enemy soldier".
The Iranians gave quarter to the adversary who requested it, and usually treated their captives with respect and kindness. Noble prisoners were accorded due honour, and princes treated royally. Even rebellious peoples were deported only to be given new lands and houses and enrolled as ordinary subjects. Personal valour was greatly esteemed, and special boons were conferred on brave servants of the empire. Records of battles were kept, detailing the course of an engagement and casualty figures. The commander-in-chief's scribe wrote down distinguished deeds of warriors: "During the whole battle Xerxes sat at the base of the hill..., and whenever he saw any of his own captains perform any worthy exploit he inquired concerning him, and the man's name was taken down by his scribe, together with the names of his father and city". In the same way Darius recorded the names of his six helpers, together with those of their fathers and nationality, adding: "Thou who shalt be king hereafter, protect well the family of these men". In 335 BCE both Athens and Thebes sought Iranian help, and the ambassadors of the latter city were received with the greatest honour at the Imperial court and their wishes were granted on the account that their forebears had rendered military assistance to Xerxes 150 years earlier.
Btw, I once heard the Miley Cyrus is of Iranian descent. Those Iranians who settled in Greece.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
A NEO-ASSYRIAN GYPSUM ALABASTER RELIEF FRAGMENT, PROBABLY FROM THE NORTH PALACE OF ASHURBANIPAL AT NINEVEH, REIGN OF ASHURBANIPAL, 669-631 B.C.
SOTHEBY'S LOT SOLD. $ 290,500 USD
__________________________________________
Yeah, apparently the population was differed from today's populations living in these regions, after the slaughter and slew.
The way the story goes, is that these invasion populations remained there and as they settled in these places.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Surely you must know that the man quoted above:
History of Iran: Achaemenid Army Achaemenid Army By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi
Is nothing but another stupid, lying, Turk mulatto whom the academic world ignores.
Hint: the word "Iranian" that he uses so often, had no meaning until 1935.
In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries with which it had diplomatic relations, to call Persia "Iran". The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Arian" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history. It was only fitting that the country be called "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning, and bring home to the world, the new era in history, but would also signify the NOW Arian race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Arian"/Aryan and derived from it. Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.
Now moving on, revisiting the question of whether or not the Lachish figures above have afro hair or curly hair
That these necessarily represent afro textured hair can be easily falsified by the existence of Assyrian figures with decimated short-cropped hair, whose hair looks grossly no different from these Lachish figures (see the Assyrian[?] figure in the middle, below).
It goes without saying, but with no proper controls in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks were depicted as having afro textured hair.
In the side-view it's clear that the curls only appear in the cross section of each hair strand (as with the Assyrian beards and scalp hair strands). Along their length, the hair strands are straight, as shown by the cylindrical tube-like shapes of the individual hair strands.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
[The above poste was totally edited after I posted the below]
There are no Assyrians with hair of the Lachish Judahites. Attention to detail reveals their hair is like "Sudanese" in both Assyrian and Persian art.
Yes many types of hair fit the description bushy. That doesn't mean there are not degrees of difference between them.
A 1:1 comparison of all the mentioned types instructs which may be due to texture or to styling. The Lachish Judahites and Sudanese appear to be natural texture as we can see it's closely cropped and is growing on the nape of the neck not falling over the nape.
There are always those ready to denigrate any aspect of sub-Saharan characteristics when outside of Africa yet such folk never question whether depictions of straight hair are really representative of the peoples shown having it.
The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.
You have posted these already a dozen times. Yet, you have failed to, or rather ignore the actual evidence being prompted. In which you literally make yourself look dumber than dumb. And it's actually pathetic, the lights you'll go, will you're digging a hole deeper and deeper, for yourself. Trying to pass this off as "scientific evaluation" is merely laughable.
Have you ever read about post-Natufains? LOL
Repost for the lioness productions team.
quote: Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period.
Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre
Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
--Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).
Eurocentrism is bliss.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Surely you must know that the man quoted above:
History of Iran: Achaemenid Army Achaemenid Army By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi
Is nothing but another stupid, lying, Turk mulatto whom the academic world ignores.
Hint: the word "Iranian" that he uses so often, had no meaning until 1935.
In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries with which it had diplomatic relations, to call Persia "Iran". The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Arian" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history. It was only fitting that the country be called "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning, and bring home to the world, the new era in history, but would also signify the NOW Arian race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Arian"/Aryan and derived from it.
In fact it was the link by the lioness, which I laid out here.but it's good your informing people on this. I don't know in what you based that he is Turkish, but could it be because of Uralic?
And why are the people like below ignored?
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Now moving on, revisiting the question of whether or not the Lachish figures above have afro hair or curly hair
That these necessarily represent afro textured hair can be easily falsified by the existence of Assyrian figures with decimated short-cropped hair, whose hair looks grossly no different from these Lachish figures (see the Assyrian[?] figure in the middle, below).
It goes without saying, but with no proper controls in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks were depicted as having afro textured hair.
In the side-view it's clear that the curls only appear in the cross section of each hair strand (as with the Assyrian beards and scalp hair strands). Along their length, the hair strands are straight, as shown by the cylindrical tube-like shapes of the individual hair strands.
Some sources mention the bust as being of an Achaemenid woman.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Above, an Assyrian conqueror and Judaens captured in 701 BC in the town of Lachish in Israel We see that the portion on the Assyrian's hair marked "A" is the exact same texture as the Judaen's hair
which of the below statements is true ??
1) The Assyrian had woolly hair. It's marked "A" The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
2) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like woolly hair
3) The Assyrian had curly hair marked "A" It was not originally woolly, just curly. The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
4) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like curly hair but not curly hair which was originally woolly Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
It's unbelievable how when people had posted photos of African Americans suggesting similarity to ancient Mesopotamians nobody had a problem. Yet when actual Iranian people are posted with similar hair, it's a problem
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
It goes without saying, but with no proper controls in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks were depicted as having afro textured hair.
yes, I agree
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It's unbelievable how when people had posted photos of African Americans suggesting similarity to ancient Mesopotamians nobody had a problem. Yet when actual Iranian people are posted with similar hair, it's a problem
What is unbelievable is that you'll post in a snap how "multiple back to Africa migrations" have taken place, and how Eurasians entered Africa, spread "all over Africa", yet with no evidence to back it up.
But when the opposite "which clearly has happened", is being represented, you fight it with tooth and nail. Or rather you'll ignore it. Because that is what has happened for 5pages straight.
By the way, who said "all those images" were of African Americans? That's just more rubble.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
It goes without saying, but with no proper controls in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks were depicted as having afro textured hair.
yes, I agree
Sure, now all of as sudden you'll claim it's not Afro-texture hair.
Have you ever read about post-Natufains? LOL
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Above, an Assyrian conqueror and Judaens captured in 701 BC in the town of Lachish in Israel We see that the portion on the Assyrian's hair marked "A" is the exact same texture as the Judaen's hair
which of the below statements is true ??
1) The Assyrian had woolly hair. It's marked "A" The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
2) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like woolly hair
3) The Assyrian had curly hair marked "A" It was not originally woolly, just curly. The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened
4) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B" The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled to look like curly hair but not curly hair which was originally woolly
As told before neo-Assyria and Assyrians had several ethnic groups and populations. So, keep ignoring the obvious and rather come up with multiple choice BS questions. From the image I likely know what hair texture the Assyrian had, when I'll find a picture of some one with similar hair texture, I'll post it.
quote: Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period.
~Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992) Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre
quote: 8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,
12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.
~Moshe et al.
Genesis 10.8-12
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
~Moorjani et al.
quote:
Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago. […]
Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).
"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan
Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710 doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408
Eurocentrism is bliss.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
ASS - This is TWO types:
Straight AND Curly.
ASS - This is ONE type:
Curly all the Way.
.
ONLY BLACK PEOPLE HAVE THIS TYPE OF HAIR! .
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Let us now put this inane HAIR nonsense to bed PERMANENTLY!
Regardless of the lies by deluded and still fantasizing Albinos, that their history could POSSIBLY be True.
NO, there is no chance that your history could be true, just like there is NO chance that the ancients who created civilization could have possibly been Albinos like you.
ONLY BLACK PEOPLE CAN HAVE THIS TYPE OF HAIR!
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
According to textual sources posted in this thread the Elamite Immortals invented sneakers but don't tell the indigenous blacks of the Kuwait Iraq Iran nexus, they may sue!
BTW commuting around today I ran into a Sidamo woman and admired her hairstyle. Sidamo women have an interesting way of styling nappy woolly hair. Check it.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote: In summary, we have documented a contribution of sub-Saharan African genetic material to many West Eurasian populations in the last few thousand years. A priority for future work should be to identify the source populations for this admixture. [...]
Source of African ancestry in West Eurasians may include some East African ancestors. In order to identify the source of the African ancestry in Levantines, Southern Europeans and Jews, we performed PCA Projection with all three possible pairs of African populations (Bulala, Kenyan Luhya (LWK) and Yoruba (YRI)) along with HapMap Chinese (CHB), and then plotted the mean values of all the samples from each West Eurasian population, African Americans (ASW) and North African (Mozabites) onto the first PC and second PC. These admixed West Eurasian populations align along a gradient that points more at (a) YRI than Bulala, and (b) LWK than Bulala suggesting little evidence for Chadic ancestry in West Eurasians, (c) The PCA suggests more relatedness to LWK than to YRI, suggesting that there may be some East African related ancestry in these West Eurasian populations.
~Moorjani et al. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373.s013 (0.23 MB DOC)
You have now proven that you are indeed a ignorant racist without a doubt. A real lying ass, as people call you.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The finding of African ancestry in Southern Europe dating to ~55 generations ago, or ~1,600 years ago assuming 29 years per generation [30], needs to be placed in historical context. The historical record documents multiple interactions of African and European populations over this period. One potential opportunity for African gene flow was during the period of Roman occupation of North Africa that lasted until the early 5th century AD, and indeed tomb inscriptions and literary references suggest that trade relations continued even after that time [31], [32]. North Africa was also a supplier of goods and products such as wine and olive oil to Italy, Spain and Gaul from 200–600 AD, and Morocco was a major manufacturer of the processed fish sauce condiment, garum, which was imported by Romans [33]. In addition, there was slave trading across the western Sahara during Roman times [7], [34]. Another potential source of some of the African ancestry, especially in Spain and Portugal, is the invasion of Iberia by Moorish armies after 711 AD [35], [36]. If the Moors already had some African ancestry when they arrived in Southern Europe, and then admixed with Iberians, we would expect the admixture date to be older than the date of the invasion, as we observe.
The signal of African mixture that we detect in Levantines (Bedouins, Palestinians and Druze) – an average of 32 generations or ~1000 years ago – is more recent than the signal in Europeans, which might be related to the migrations between North Africa and Middle East that have occurred over the last thousand years, and the proximity of Levantine groups geographically to Africa. Syria and Palestine were under Egyptian political control until the 16th century AD when they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire. This is in concordance with our proposed dates. In addition, the Arab slave trade is responsible for the movement of large numbers of people from Africa across the Red Sea to Arabia from 650 to 1900 AD and probably even prior to the Islamic times [7], [37]. We caution that our sampling of the Middle East is sparse, and it will be of interest to study African ancestry in additional groups from this region
Introduction
The history of human migrations from Africa into West Eurasia is only partially understood. Archaeological and genetic evidence indicate that anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe from an African source at least 45,000 years ago, following the initial dispersal out of Africa [1], [2]. However, it is known that Southern Europeans and Levantines (people from modern day Palestine, Israel, Syria and Jordan) have also inherited genetic material of African origin due to subsequent migrations. One line of evidence comes from Y-chromosome [3] and mitochondrial DNA analyses [4]–[6]. These have identified haplogroups that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africans in Southern Europeans and Levantines but not in Northern Europeans [7]. Auton et al. [8] presented nuclear genome-based evidence for sharing of sub-Saharan African ancestry in some West Eurasians, by identifying a North-South gradient of haplotype sharing between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans, with the highest proportion of haplotype sharing observed in south/southwestern Europe. However, none of these studies used genome-wide data to estimate the proportion of African ancestry in West Eurasians, or the date(s) of mixture. Throughout this report, we use “African mixture” to refer to gene flow into West Eurasians since the divergence of the latter from East Asians; thus, we are not referring to the much older dispersal out of Africa ~45,000 years ago but instead to migrations that have occurred since that time.
special thanks to Trollkillah for the article
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote: "A striking finding from our study is the consistent detection of 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, * Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), * Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and * Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq).
This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE- like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15,38]. We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (~2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines.
The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600–3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews— who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago [39,40]—share the signal of African admixture. (An important caveat is that there is significant heterogeneity in the dates of African mixture in various Jewish populations.) A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC [41]." --Moorjani 2011
^^Indeed. This debunks the claim that there was no sub-Saharan gene flow into Palestine/Middle East during Biblical times.
"Here, we apply genomic methods to show that the proportion of African ancestry in many Southern European groups is 1%–3%, in Middle Eastern groups is 4%–15%, and in\ Jewish groups is 3%–5%. " --Moorjani
^^It would be more accurate to say that the proportion of African ancestry being referred to is primarily WEST AFRICAN ancestry, specifically centered on the Yorbua. But the Yorbua are not the only "sub Saharan" group of Africans. Peoples of Ethiopia and Somalia and large parts of Chad and the Sudan are located below the Sahara and are thus "sub-Saharan" Africans. Studies using them to trace gene flow into Europe or the Middle East are just as valid as using West African Yorbua.
SOme racists in Hitler's time did charge Jews with having the blood of "inferior stocks", specifically "negro blood." Well their latter day racist "aryan" brethren could no doubt claim a link of Jews with said "negro blood" and cite the above as "proof." “[Nazi] Lectures, films, and history books taught these girls about a political and biological danger posed by Jews.. All told, there was "racial degeneration" during the Republic, resulting from the presence and dominance of Jews. Since his time in Palestine, the Jew was said to have absorbed Negro blood and to have a particular affinity to those French colonial Negroes.." --Michael Kater 2006 Hitler Youth, pg 100
"In his Foundations of the Nineteenth Century (1899) .. Houston Chamberlain classified Jews as "a mongrel race, which always retains this mongrel character." For Chamberlain, who was also admired by Hitler, the most recent “hybridization” of the Jews was the “admixture of Negro blood with Jewish in the Diaspora of Alexandria— of which many a man of Jewish persuasion at this day offers living proof" (CHamberlain as cited in Gilman 1986,7). --Baum and Samuels, 2011. Antisemitism Explained. p 19
Dienekes said:
Another idea is to see whether frequency differences between A and B are correlated with frequency differences between Sub-Saharans and another Eurasian population unrelated to either A or B. Differences between Caucasoids and Sub-Saharans are (in part) due to divergence between Sub-Saharans and ancestral Eurasians. Suppose, for example, that we've identified a group (e.g., Papuans) unlikely to have admixed with Caucasoids. If B differs from A (over many markers) in the same direction that Sub-Saharans differ from Papuans, this is consistent with the notion that B has some Sub-Saharan admixture that A lacks. This is the basis of the 4-population test.
Note that because of symmetry, a highly negative value in their 4-population test (x, CEU, Papuan, YRI) indicates Sub-Saharan admixture, while a highly positive one would indicate "Papuan" admixture! The authors do observe positive values, suggesting that some northern European populations are Papuan-shifted even with respect to CEU, most notably Russia with a Z-score of 11.4. Thankfully, we are spared a paper on Papuan admixture in Russia.
^^Irrelevant. The study did not focus on Papuans but Africans. The comparison falls flat and does not change the fact of the African admixture. And a positive shift would not at all have anything to do with a direct "Papuan admix" towards Europeans, but rather a signal towards Asian genetic elements. Europeans, depending on the measure used, signal genetically more towards Asians as Cavalli Sforza and others show, in terms of being a hybrid population.
Dienkes says: Much more can be said, but let's summarize: the model of Moorjani et al. (2011) fails because:
1 It does not account for the West-East Eurasian axis, folding everything onto the North European-Sub-Saharan African one 2 It undersamples African diversity by excluding both North African and East African populations
Perhaps I'll add more in the future, but I believe I've already said enough to cast serious doubt on this paper'
^^Wrong. It did not have to account for any West-East axis. The study question relates to the level of African admixture in different European and Middle Eastern populations, and samples Palestinians, Jews, Mediterranean's (like Italians and Spaniards) and Swiss-French. The study is not concerned with distant East Eurasians like Chinese and does not need to sample them to be valid. Far from failing, the study is confirmed by others that show clear African gene flow into Europe and the Middle East from ancient times.
And sure it undersamples African diversity, but that does not change the fact of the African admixture which cannot be airbrushed away.
DIenkes has "serious doubts" because it shows his beloved "Caucasoids" to be "mixed" - using classical race schema he subscribes to- a hybrid population as also shown by Cavalli-Sforza previously. Moorjani has not "failed" in showing the presence of admixture.
I've always wondered why ES drummed up the statement because to me the statement makes no sense at all.
It isn't rooted in time and its scientific basis is undiscernable.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Reposted Enrique for Moorjani relevance.
quote:The point estimates over all 8 populations are between 1,600–3,400 years ago, but with largely overlapping confidence intervals. It is intriguing that the Mizrahi Irani and Iraqi Jews— who are thought to descend at least in part from Jews who were exiled to Babylon about 2,600 years ago [39,40]—share the signal of African admixture. (An important caveat is that there is significant heterogeneity in the dates of African mixture in various Jewish populations.) A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC [41]." --Moorjani 2011
^^Indeed. This debunks the claim that there was no sub-Saharan gene flow into Palestine/Middle East during Biblical times.
Careful analysis of Cavalli-Sforza and Bowcock show the 1/3 2/3 statement is false nor did it hold much water >15y because of sampling bias and "treeing disconnections", not to go into all that here and now.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The finding of African ancestry in Southern Europe dating to ~55 generations ago, or ~1,600 years ago assuming 29 years per generation [30], needs to be placed in historical context. The historical record documents multiple interactions of African and European populations over this period. One potential opportunity for African gene flow was during the period of Roman occupation of North Africa that lasted until the early 5th century AD, and indeed tomb inscriptions and literary references suggest that trade relations continued even after that time [31], [32]. North Africa was also a supplier of goods and products such as wine and olive oil to Italy, Spain and Gaul from 200–600 AD, and Morocco was a major manufacturer of the processed fish sauce condiment, garum, which was imported by Romans [33]. In addition, there was slave trading across the western Sahara during Roman times [7], [34]. Another potential source of some of the African ancestry, especially in Spain and Portugal, is the invasion of Iberia by Moorish armies after 711 AD [35], [36]. If the Moors already had some African ancestry when they arrived in Southern Europe, and then admixed with Iberians, we would expect the admixture date to be older than the date of the invasion, as we observe.
The signal of African mixture that we detect in Levantines (Bedouins, Palestinians and Druze) – an average of 32 generations or ~1000 years ago – is more recent than the signal in Europeans, which might be related to the migrations between North Africa and Middle East that have occurred over the last thousand years, and the proximity of Levantine groups geographically to Africa. Syria and Palestine were under Egyptian political control until the 16th century AD when they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire. This is in concordance with our proposed dates. In addition, the Arab slave trade is responsible for the movement of large numbers of people from Africa across the Red Sea to Arabia from 650 to 1900 AD and probably even prior to the Islamic times [7], [37]. We caution that our sampling of the Middle East is sparse, and it will be of interest to study African ancestry in additional groups from this region
Introduction
The history of human migrations from Africa into West Eurasia is only partially understood. Archaeological and genetic evidence indicate that anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe from an African source at least 45,000 years ago, following the initial dispersal out of Africa [1], [2]. However, it is known that Southern Europeans and Levantines (people from modern day Palestine, Israel, Syria and Jordan) have also inherited genetic material of African origin due to subsequent migrations. One line of evidence comes from Y-chromosome [3] and mitochondrial DNA analyses [4]–[6]. These have identified haplogroups that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africans in Southern Europeans and Levantines but not in Northern Europeans [7]. Auton et al. [8] presented nuclear genome-based evidence for sharing of sub-Saharan African ancestry in some West Eurasians, by identifying a North-South gradient of haplotype sharing between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans, with the highest proportion of haplotype sharing observed in south/southwestern Europe. However, none of these studies used genome-wide data to estimate the proportion of African ancestry in West Eurasians, or the date(s) of mixture. Throughout this report, we use “African mixture” to refer to gene flow into West Eurasians since the divergence of the latter from East Asians; thus, we are not referring to the much older dispersal out of Africa ~45,000 years ago but instead to migrations that have occurred since that time.
special thanks to Trollkillah for the article
You're welcome, unfortunately these authors didn't que-in outgoing stems such as the Natufians in the Levant or Africans Europe entered via the Iberia.
This paper eventually may characterize the final population replacement.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Natufian culture existed from 13,000 to 9,500-9,800 B.C.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Natufian culture existed from 13,000 to 9,500-9,800 B.C.
POST-NATUFIAN, dude, POST-NATUFIAN.
Posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Trollkillah # Ish Gebor, you disappoint me: lioness is but a degenerate nobody, desperately trying to hold onto an Albino fantasy.
Please peruse the source study linked below, and take careful note of the various Albino institutions of great renown, involved in the study.
There is no letup, they are still trying to bury you!
BTW - Did you notice the nonsensical assumptions of the study? Where is the protest of Black academics? The Albino people are still free to say whatever they like, identify things and people as they wish, and there is still no organized truth-telling. Oddly enough, I was just looking at middle eastern artwork where they shamelessly do the same thing, note my new thread.
I agree, there is and was no protest by black academics. There need to be more in the field. And yes, I do see that lioness is holding on to Eurocentric fantasies.
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
You mean to tell be these short legged Israelites and Assyrians
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew cpatives
look like Egyptians
SETI I, at Abydos
RAMESSES II, Karnak
RAMESSES II, Karnak
^^^ look at how long and thin they are compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews who look similar and the Assyrians and some of the Hebrews had big full curly beards that I'm not even sure the ancient Egyptians could grow
(assuming the Lacish art is realistically accuurate, it may not be)
You're not taking into account that different peoples often portray themselves differently (in terms of body proportions etc). Since the Egyptians were Africans, I don't see why they wouldn't have been able to grow beards. Why shouldn't they?
Posted by real expert (Member # 22352) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [IMG]
A relief isn't a picture and wasn't meant to be totally realistic.
Here an Ashkenazi Jew Johanathan looking similar like these captives in the assyrian relief.
Here very like enslaved Hebrews with different hairstyle on an Assyrian relief. Some of them wear the same headdress and clothing like the captured Hebrews in the Lachish relief.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
For the German clown above. Stop spreading your LIES!
A Semitic slave. Ancient Egyptian figurine. Hecht Museum
quote:
"The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms"
The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved.
Studies that compared them by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers to European Mediterranean populations revealed that they are closer to Europeans than to other Jewish populations [1-3].
In contrast, according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean (table 3, figure 4).
"EEJ are the largest and most investigated Jewish community, yet their history as Franco-German Jewry is known to us only since their appearance in the 9th century, and their subsequent migration a few hundred years later to Eastern Europe [4,5]. Where did these Jews come from? It seems that they came to Germany and France from Italy [5-8].
It is also possible that some Jews migrated northward from the Italian colonies on the northern shore of the Black Sea [9]. All these Jews are likely the descendents of proselytes.
Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13]."
The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin.
The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population.
**The demographic histories of three Jewish populations exemplify how different demographic patterns make the uniparental markers more reliable for Iraqi (Babylonian) Jews and Yemenite Jews and less reliable for EEJ. Both Yemenite Jews and Iraqi Jews resemble populations from their regions of origin according to autosomal markers [1,3,30-32].
**Babylonian Jews numbered more than a million in the first century AD [35], and constituted the majority of the population in the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris in the 2nd-3rd centuries AD [36]. Gilbert [37] estimates that by 600 AD there were 806,000 Jews in Mesopotamia, and according to Sassoon [38] it was inhabited by about a million Jews in the 7th century. In the 14th century the estimates for Baghdad alone range from 70,000 to hundreds thousands [38].
*By comparing the structure of the STRs network among the various Ashkenazi populations and among the various European non-Jewish populations they reached the conclusion that a single male founder introduced this haplogroup into Ashkenazi Jews in the first millennium.
--Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin1,2,3 et al. The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms 1 Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia 2 Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel 3 Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel
Study identifies genetic signatures for 3.5 million Ashkenazi Jews
NEW YORK — About 3.5 million of today’s Ashkenazi Jews — 40 percent of the total Ashkenazi population — are descended from just four women, a genetic study indicates. Those women apparently lived somewhere in Europe within the last 2,000 years, but not necessarily in the same place or even the same century, said lead author Dr. Doron Behar of the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa, Israel.
He did the work with Karl Skorecki of the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology and others.
Each woman left a genetic signature that shows up in their descendants today, he and colleagues say in a report published online by the American Journal of Human Genetics. Together, their four signatures appear in about 40 percent of Ashkenazi Jews, while being virtually absent in non-Jews and found only rarely in Jews of non-Ashkenazi origin, the researchers said.
They said the total Ashkenazi population is estimated at around 8 million people. The estimated world Jewish population is about 13 million.
Ashkenazi Jews are a group with mainly central and eastern European ancestry. Ultimately, though, they can be traced back to Jews who migrated from Israel to Italy in the first and second centuries, Behar said. Eventually this group moved to Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries and expanded greatly, reaching about 10 million just before World War II, he said.
Maternal lineages traced
The study involved mitochondrial DNA, called mtDNA, which is passed only through the mother. A woman can pass her mtDNA to grandchildren only by having daughters. So mtDNA is “the perfect tool to trace maternal lineages,” Behar said Thursday in a telephone interview.
His study involved analyzing mtDNA from more than 11,000 samples representing 67 populations.
Mike Hammer, who does similar research at the University of Arizona, said he found the work tracing back to just four ancestors “quite plausible ... I think they’ve done a really good job of tackling this question.”
But he said it’s not clear the women lived in Europe.
“They may have existed in the Near East,” Hammer said. “We don’t know exactly where the four women were, but their descendants left a legacy in the population today, whereas ... other women’s descendants did not.”
Behar said the four women he referred to did inherit their genetic signatures from female ancestors who lived in the Near East. But he said he preferred to focus on these later European descendants because they were at the root of the Ashkenazi population explosion.
Lachish arguments left and right Elami and Ashuri too and hair textures too bad most imgs r rescinded
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Male and Female prisoners Siege of Lachish. Review of Prisoners. Assyrian, about 700-692 BC. From Nineveh, South-West Palace, Room XXXII, panels 7-8. The prisoners, who have probably been captured during one of Sennacherib's campaigns in Iran or eastern Turkey, are brought into the presence of the king, who will have been shown on a panel further to the right. W A 124902-3 Lachish Reliefs, Object 21 of 100, British Museum
quote:The prisoners, who have probably been captured during one of Sennacherib's campaigns in Iran or eastern Turkey,
Differences in detail lead to supposing the individuals are actually from Ukku. Their dress for instance resembles that of Alammu another place Sennacherib beat down.
The Lachish 'wallpaper' is below the individuals.
What's the order of conquest between Lukku Alammu and Lachish per Sennacherib's chronicles?
quote:Originally posted on p3 of this thread by Tukuler: More Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands?
with child here
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by real expert: A relief isn't a picture and wasn't meant to be totally realistic.
Here an Ashkenazi Jew Johanathan looking similar like these captives in the assyrian relief.
Here very like enslaved Hebrews with different hairstyle on an Assyrian relief. Some of them wear the same headdress and clothing like the captured Hebrews in the Lachish relief.
quote:Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country when Cepheus was king. There are some who say that a motley collection of landless Assyrians occupied a part of Egypt, and then built cities of their own, inhabiting the lands of the Hebrews and the nearer parts of Syria. Others again find a famous ancestry for the Jews in the Solymi who are mentioned with respect in the epics of Homer: this tribe is supposed to have founded Jerusalem (4) and named it after themselves.
~Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55 - 117), The Histories by Cornelius Tacitus.
I have to read more upon the Lachish to see the clear connections between the Beta Israel (House of Israel) and Lachish.
quote:“Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500-6000 BCE”
~Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.
quote: Jericho, Arabic Arīḥā, town located in the West Bank. Jericho is one of the earliest continuous settlements in the world, dating perhaps from about 9000 BCE. Archaeological excavations have demonstrated Jericho’s lengthy history.
quote: “Populations for which the ancient Caucasus genomes are best ancestral approximations include those of the Southern Caucasus and interestingly, South and Central Asia. Western Europe tends to be a mix of early farmers and western/eastern hunter-gatherers while Middle Eastern genomes are described as a mix of early farmers and Africans.
[…]
Caucasus hunter-gatherer contribution to subsequent populations. We next explored the extent to which Bichon and CHG contributed to contemporary populations using outgroup f3(African; modern, ancient) statistics, which measure the shared genetic history between an ancient genome and a modern population since they diverged from an African outgroup.
Discussion
Given their geographic origin, it seems likely that CHG and EF are the descendants of early colonists from Africa who stopped south of the Caucasus, in an area stretching south to the Levant and possibly east towards Central and South Asia. WHG, on the other hand, are likely the descendants of a wave that expanded further into Europe. The separation of these populations is one that stretches back before the Holocene, as indicated by local continuity through the Late Palaeolithic/Mesolithic boundary and deep coalescence estimates, which date to around the LGM and earlier.”
~Jones, E. R., G. Gonzalez-Fortes, S. Connell, V. Siska, A. Eriksson, R. Martiniano, R. L. McLaughlin, et al. 2015. Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.” Nature Communications 6 (1): 8912. doi:10.1038/ncomms9912. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms9912. Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
with child here
They made no exceptions, many children can be seen. Btw, can you show an entire white/ European population looking like the Lachish males with Afro-textured hair, who are being persecuted? I ask so, considering the fact that you posted the individual Richard Simmons a few years back as a proximity for the Lachish. And how does it register with this?
"Lachish was destroyed and its Jewish inhabitants were exiled. Sennacherib besieged Hezekiah within Jerusalem “like a bird in a cage”, he states in his annals of Sennacherib. Ironically, Hezekiah did pay the tribute at the end. […]
The inhabitants of Lachish were deported to other areas within the Assyrian Empire. Where did they go and with whom did they live? Language barriers, religious differences and cultural conflicts had to be adjusted in order to live peacefully. For how long did they live in their exile and for how many generations? Are their descendants part of the Jewish population of Iraq, my country? I think Lachish’s people are braver than Hezekiah and Sennacherib."
quote:The prisoners, who have probably been captured during one of Sennacherib's campaigns in Iran or eastern Turkey,
Differences in detail lead to supposing the individuals are actually from Ukku. Their dress for instance resembles that of Alammu another place Sennacherib beat down.
The Lachish 'wallpaper' is below the individuals.
What's the order of conquest between Lukku Alammu and Lachish per Sennacherib's chronicles?
quote:Originally posted on p3 of this thread by Tukuler: More Lachish Jewish women with their woolly haired husbands?
quote: Herodotus called Susa "the city of Memnon," Herodotus describes two tall statues with Egyptian and Ethiopian dress that some, he says, identify as Memnon; he disagrees, having previously stated that he believes it to be Sesostris.
~Kevin Burrell, (p.164) Cushites in the Hebrew Bible: Negotiating Ethnic Identity in the Past and Present (2020).
quote: In discussing the royal road from Sardis to Susa, Herodotus also referred to ‘the king’s abode called Memnonian’ and said of Susa, ‘that is the city called Memnonian.’16 The association between Cissia, Tithonus and Memnon was also explicit in Strabo who wrote, ‘Susis also is almost a part of Persis. It lies between Persis and Babylonia, and has a very considerable city, Susa....It is said to have been founded by Tithonus, the father of Memnon. Its compass was 120 stadia. Its shape was oblong. The Acropolis was called Memnonium. The Susians have the name also of Cissii.’17
Writing of a fragment believed to originate in Aeschylus’ Memnon, West noted, ‘The speaker, prob- ably Priam himself, is interrogating the newcomer and has learned that he is a native of Ethiopia; he finds no fault with that, but awaits further clarification.
~D.T. Potts, New York University Between Myth and History: Susa and Memnon through the ages 2017, Vol. 1, No. 4
quote: There is some evidence leading to the belief that a protonegroid population once extended westward from India along the shores of the Persian Gulf. Individuals of that group seem to be portrayed on seventh century B.C. reliefs of an Assyrian king. 38 Greek authors speak of "Ethiopians" in the southeast of the land; 39 their modern descendants possess copper skins, straight hair, and round skulls.
So far as it is possible to determine, in ancient times there were longheaded races in Iran preceding the Nordic peoples. The basis for this belief is found in the appearance, in Mesopotamia, of a brown Eurafrican type of man. Our present evidence concerning him is indeed scanty, but seems to suggest a remote physical connection with India. 41 It is possible that these longheads themselves were Sumerians, or were related to them, for it has been said that one can still.
Our present evidence concerning him is indeed scanty, but seems to suggest a remote 41 38 Cf. the upper register of the Ashurbanipal relief in E. Pottier, Les Antiquites assyriennes (du Mus6e du Louvre) (Paris, 1917), PI. 23; for details cf. Victor Place, Ninive et V Assyrie, Vol. Ill (Paris, 1867), PI. 59, No. 1. Or seeH. R. Hall, Babylonianand Assyrian Sculpture in the British Museum (Paris and Brussels, 1928), PI. XLIV . Finally, cf. the Achae- menian reliefs from Susa in M. Dieulafoy, Uacropole de Suse (Paris, 1893), Pis. V and VI. Herodotus vii. 70;Strabo xv, 1,13, and 24.
*° Dieulafoy, Uacropole de Suse, p. 28. 41 Buxton in L. H. Dudley Buxton and D. Talbot Rice, "Report on the Human Remains Found at Kish," Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, LXI (1931), 57-119, esp. pp. 84 ff. century B .C . reliefs of an Assyrian king. thors speak of "Ethiopians" in the southeast of the land;39 their modern descendants possess copper skins, straight hair, and round skulls. ever, safe to say that these peoples never constituted an important or a large element in the population.
~George G. Cameron, The History of Early Iran
quote:By 701 BCE the Assyrian kings, based in Nineveh (modern-day Mosul Governorate, Iraq), built their enormous empire. It stretched from modern-day Iran to Egypt and covered most of the modern-day Middle East.
quote: The city was best known through the Christian era (and still is) by the central role it plays in the biblical Book of Jonah. The Book of Jonah was written between 500-400 BCE depicting events from hundreds of years earlier in the reign of the Hebrew King Jeroboam II (786-746 BCE).
quote: The Lachish reliefs are a set of Assyrian palace reliefs narrating the story of the Assyrian victory over the kingdom of Judah during the siege of Lachish in 701 BCE. Carved between 700-681 BCE, as a decoration of the South-West Palace of Sennacherib in Nineveh (in modern Iraq) […]
The events surrounding the conquest of Lachish are recorded in an unparalleled number of sources for the 8th century BCE; in the Hebrew Bible, the Lachish reliefs, Assyrian cuneiform prisms and in the archeological excavations at Lachish.[7] Sennacherib's conquests of Judean cities, without the capital Jerusalem, are mentioned in the Bible, the book of Kings, Book of Chronicles and in the book of Isaiah.
"Later, when Sennacherib king of Assyria and all his forces were laying siege to Lachish, he sent his officers to Jerusalem with this message for Hezekiah king of Judah and for all the people of Judah who were there"-(II Chronicles 32:9)
"Now it came to pass in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah that Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and took them." - (Isaiah 36:1-2)
quote: The Ezra and Nehemiah traditions also show Jews who were given significant posts by Persian rulers. Yet Ezra states that the Jews of the province of Yehud are “slaves” in the Persian Empire (Ezra 9:7-9). Some of the hardships suffered by the people are outlined in Neh 5, though whether their lot was different then than it was in other periods is an open question (since crop failure, borrowing, and losing loan collateral were problems experienced throughout history). [...]
In other texts, individuals with Yahwistic names were small holders or lower-rank officials. We also have an archive of texts relating to the house of Murashu, a business and financial establishment of the Persian period that employed Jews as servants or agents. The Jews seem to have been well integrated into society. Apart from Antiochus IV, persecutions of Jewish communities seem to have been local rather than imperial actions, until the Roman Empire became Christianized.
quote: The Murashu tablets provide a glimpse into what life was like for fifth-century Jewish descendants of the Babylonian Exile and captivity. After the Persian king Cyrus the Great captured Babylon in 539 BCE, he allowed and helped finance the return of Jews to Judea with the Edict of Cyrus in 538. The Murashu tablets are dated to this period after Jews were allowed to return to Judea. The fact that the banking house "Murashu & Sons" conducted business with Jews who decided to remain in Nippur rather than return to Judea suggests that life in Persian-controlled Nippur was at least somewhat tolerable for Jews.[20]
This decorative frieze of polychrome glazed brick shows an army, the men carrying spears, bows and quivers. Are they the royal guards of Darius I (522–486 BC), whom Herodotus called “the Immortals,” or might they represent an idealized image of the Persian people?
This decorative frieze was certainly inspired by the Processional Way in Babylon, constructed by Nebuchadnezar II (604–562 BC)
quote: During the Siege of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezar captured King Jehoiachin along with prominent citizens and craftsman and appointed Zedekiah as King of Judah in his place, the latter rebelled and attempted to organize opposition among the small states in the region but his capital, Jerusalem, was taken in 587 BC (the events are described in the Bible's Books of Kings and Book of Jeremiah).[6]
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: What is your opinion on this following?
I don't do sprawling walls of text, Ish. Opinion on what in particular? Anything not already covered these past 16 years by searching tukuler topic site:egyptsearch.com or searching al~takruri topic site:egyptsearch.com
Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
None of The ancient civilizations of West Asia(Middle East) Were Black, White or even Contemporary Asiatic. The Sumerians, Elamites, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians Were all a Mixture of Dravidian and African and later Asiatic but the initial Racial makeup was Mixed Dravidian/African. if you want a living example of what most of Ancient West Asia looked like then look to The Mehri People of Yemen today who are a Mixture of African and Dravidian.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: None of The ancient civilizations of West Asia(Middle East) Were Black, White or even Contemporary Asiatic. The Sumerians, Elamites, Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians Were all a Mixture of Dravidian and African and later Asiatic but the initial Racial makeup was Mixed Dravidian/African. if you want a living example of what most of Ancient West Asia looked like then look to The Mehri People of Yemen today who are a Mixture of African and Dravidian.
^ to make the images show, go back to the images and right click
don't pick "copy image"
pick "copy image address"
and make sure the images aren't too wide. Images over about 950 will cause a side slider to see the whole thread,we don't want that
depending on what browser you are using sometimes if you move the pointer over the photos that dimensions show in a little box on the left of the photo or just test it in the preview
or just preview the image
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Curly hair is not exclusive for Africans, it can be found among Europeans and Middle Easterners too
If you travel in Europe you can see it with your own eyes.
Also even straight haired people can curl their hair, so a curly head on an old work of art do not indicate that the depicted person is African.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Archeopteryx, please don't overdo bumping up old topics, thanks
Posted by Snakepit1 (Member # 21736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Curly hair is not exclusive for Africans, it can be found among Europeans and Middle Easterners too
If you travel in Europe you can see it with your own eyes.
Also even straight haired people can curl their hair, so a curly head on an old work of art do not indicate that the depicted person is African.
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
archer, Persepolis relief, Persian empire
Head of a beardless royal attendant, possibly a eunuch, ca. 721–705 B.C. Assyrian
@Snakepit, how would you describe each of these people ethnically?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Curly hair is not exclusive for Africans, it can be found among Europeans and Middle Easterners too
If you travel in Europe you can see it with your own eyes.
Also even straight haired people can curl their hair, so a curly head on an old work of art do not indicate that the depicted person is African.
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again.
Plus Europeans do not speak an Afran (Afroasiatic) language.
In Europe you will find individuals with somewhat curly hair, but not entire populations.
And it's funny, because that picture is associated with this thread:
"What hair products can be used to manage wavy and curly hair for men?"
The pic in question was just an illustration that curly hair is not exclusive for Africans.
And most of all it is hard to determine on old artwork how loose or tightly peoples curls were. Many pictures are somewhat stylized, so one can not always determine peoples race only by pictures. Many seem to take old artwork very literally. But if one does that one must also accept people with horns, blue people and many other oddities. Best way to know what hair they had is to find intact bodies with hair preserved. Next best way is to find DNA where we also can determine "race" and perhaps hair texture. Art is not the best way, it leaves room for many interpretations. You must be very well versed in the artistic codes and symbolism in a specific culture to be able to interpret its art correctly.
It is just wishful thinking to interpret every person in ancient art as an African. Fantasy and wishful thinking. Some black Americans so very much want to be some other people so they forget their own west African roots. It is a pity for those roots are more interesting than all dreams about black Israelites, black Olmecs and other products of imagination.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Archeopteryx, please don't overdo bumping up old topics, thanks
Ok, I try to write new ones about subjects that are interesting instead.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The pic in question was just an illustration that curly hair is not exclusive for Africans.
And most of all it is hard to determine on old artwork how loose or tightly peoples curls were. Many pictures are somewhat stylized, so one can not always determine peoples race only by pictures. Many seem to take old artwork very literally. But if one does that one must also accept people with horns, blue people and many other oddities. Best way to know what hair they had is to find intact bodies with hair preserved. Next best way is to find DNA where we also can determine "race" and perhaps hair texture. Art is not the best way, it leaves room for many interpretations. You must be very well versed in the artistic codes and symbolism in a specific culture to be able to interpret its art correctly.
It is just wishful thinking to interpret every person in ancient art as an African. Fantasy and wishful thinking. Some black Americans so very much want to be some other people so they forget their own west African roots. It is a pity for those roots are more interesting than all dreams about black Israelites, black Olmecs and other products of imagination.
Case in point is, there is more traced than "just" curly hair. All this has been discussed over the years.
In fact that was the last piece of the puzzle to who those people were. These pieces of th puzzle from multiple disciplines happen to lead to Africa.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
About hair, as I said, to determine exactly how the ancient Israels looked like using art is not always the best way. Actual remains are better. So we need to test more remains before we can be sure of anything.
Concerning hair there are very few samples of ancient preserved hair from Israel, but there are at least a sample of about 2000 years old male hair. It is not mentioned as typical African, and it is not even black. The idea of the ancient Israelites as all black and curly headed seems not to be corroborated by science.
But the main question remains: Why do some Black Americans want to borrow other peoples heritage just to enhance themselves? Be proud instead of your true West African heritage, and let other peoples be proud over their heritage.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Middle Eastern men can many times be rather curly haired which everyone who has actually been there might have seen.
DNA studies have also showed that Jews and other Middle Easterners have some common traits genetically. Considering the geographical location of Israel one ought not to be very surprised.
If one shall return to the ancient art works so, even if one must be careful in interpreting them, many of the men in the old representations rather reminds of this man than of stereotypical African people.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Noted racists Nott & Gliddon also didn't want to accept Lachish depictions for what they delineate.
Oh, we're pretty sure of the Lachish art. Art becomes doubtful only where blx r nvolved. Yet somehow all other art reflects correctly. Scattered modern ndividuals here and there mean nothing. All Judaean men of Lachish have wooly hair. There is no modern Israeli city of all woolly haired men.
Anyway roundup of current Jewish DNA includes a ~4% indistinguishable Afr ancestry going back to Babylonian captivity times. The sources are posted above on this page
The earliest `Am Yisra'el spoke an African language and became a people on the African tectonic plate and, of course were not NW Euros nor continental Afrs. Judea skin colour was within African brown complexions as noted by contemporaneous classical authors. We have a Palestinian and old French Jewish self-descriptions as black & beautiful and plum black . One authoritative self-description say neither Germanic yte nor Sudanic blk, but in between.
`Am Yisra'el hair texture and skin colour is what it is.
Blk Amers got nothing to do with it.
Ancient Israel was a Levantine ppl varying in looks from SyroLebanese to SudanoEgyptian naturally. HellenoRoman Judea got some of its looks from N Med converts. These ppl have married and mated with every ppl they came in contact with.
Patai, Raphael & Jennifer The myth of the Jewish race Scribner: New York, 1975
Wait lemme save this pg b4 this whole thread gets axed too.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some black Americans so very much want to be some other people so they forget their own west African roots. It is a pity for those roots are more interesting than all dreams about black Israelites, black Olmecs and other products of imagination.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Oh, we're pretty sure of the Lachish art. Art becomes doubtful only where blx r nvolved. Yet somehow all other art reflects correctly. Scattered modern ndividuals here and there mean nothing. All Judaean men of Lachish have wooly hair. There is no modern Israeli city of all woolly haired men.
1) ^^ woolly haired or curly?
.
.
________________________________________2) Is the Assyrian on the right, woolly haired or curly? ^^^
_______________________________________3) Does "woolly hair" Indicate African phenotype?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote: Wishful European thinking has produced a plethora of biblical idylls wherein Levantine people are depicted as Euros. That's how much some yte Euros want to forget their roots and be some other ppl --or shall we forget these yte Israelite dreams.
Yes both whites and blacks have loved to immerse themselves in fantasies and dreams, inspired by biblical stories.
But one can still wonder why the descendants of West African slaves want to mimic the fantasies of their former oppressors instead of researching their own West African historical roots.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
People with this kind of look still exist in the Middle East. One does not have to go to Africa to find curly hair
All the Blacks that supposedly lived in ancient Israel seems to fail to show up when it concerns actual physical remains. Also as mentioned the sample of ancient Jewish hair that exist is not even black and seems not indicate any Black African.
Actual physical remains trumps artistic representations (which often are stylized and follow different artistic and cultural codes) but even the images can not be proven to show African black people.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Noted racists Nott & Gliddon also didn't want to accept Lachish depictions for what they delineate.
Oh, we're pretty sure of the Lachish art. Art becomes doubtful only where blx r nvolved. Yet somehow all other art reflects correctly. Scattered modern ndividuals here and there mean nothing. All Judaean men of Lachish have wooly hair. There is no modern Israeli city of all woolly haired men.
Anyway roundup of current Jewish DNA includes a ~4% indistinguishable Afr ancestry going back to Babylonian captivity times. The sources are posted above on this page
The earliest `Am Yisra'el spoke an African language and became a people on the African tectonic plate and, of course were not NW Euros nor continental Afrs. Judea skin colour was within African brown complexions as noted by contemporaneous classical authors. We have a Palestinian and old French Jewish self-descriptions as black & beautiful and plum black . One authoritative self-description say neither Germanic yte nor Sudanic blk, but in between.
`Am Yisra'el hair texture and skin colour is what it is.
Blk Amers got nothing to do with it.
Ancient Israel was a Levantine ppl varying in looks from SyroLebanese to SudanoEgyptian naturally. HellenoRoman Judea got some of its looks from N Med converts. These ppl have married and mated with every ppl they came in contact with.
Patai, Raphael & Jennifer The myth of the Jewish race Scribner: New York, 1975
Wait lemme save this pg b4 this whole thread gets axed too.
A very good thesis.. that matches the above.. Israel beginnings are with Egyptian mercenaries...VERY INTERESTING but when you watch listen to what he DOES NOT say or what he hesitates to say about "who" where hired Egyptian soldiers..
The Oriental Institute David Ilan | How Ancient Israel Began: A New Archaeological Perspective
quote: Wishful European thinking has produced a plethora of biblical idylls wherein Levantine people are depicted as Euros. That's how much some yte Euros want to forget their roots and be some other ppl --or shall we forget these yte Israelite dreams.
Yes both whites and blacks have loved to immerse themselves in fantasies and dreams, inspired by biblical stories.
But one can still wonder why the descendants of West African slaves want to mimic the fantasies of their former oppressors instead of researching their own West African historical roots.
LOL The Abrahamic religions come for proto-Afran cultures. These cultures first arose in Africa,
quote:Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago. […]
Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).
"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan
Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710 doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408
See, Ursemitische Religion by Werner Daum.
See, Julian Baldick, Black God: The Afroasiatic Roots of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Religions.
A comparative study of the Afroasiatic traditional religions of northern Africa and Arabia. The author argues that there is a common Afroasiatic language in those regions, so is there a common family of religions. He compares traditions as diverse as those in Yemen and Nigeria.
Internationally known scholar of Islam Dr. Wesley Muhammad brings together in this his latest work a tremendous amount of scholarship and demonstrates that: Ancient Black Arabia, which is the matrix of Islam, is a root of civilization and an integral component of the Global African Civilization paradigm. Islam the veneration of Allah as the supreme God predated the Arabian prophet Muhammad by millennia The oldest records of this ancient veneration of Allah indicates that Blacks or Africans in Arabia were the originators of this veneration And much more Remarks about Black Arabia from Africentric Scholar Wayne B. Chandler, author of Ancient Future: The Teachings and Prophetic Wisdom of the Seven Hermitic Laws of Ancient Egypt (1999) about new book: I began going through it and I must say I was really impressed with your work and historical insights. More times than not, much of what has come on the heels of the work we did with [Ivan] Van Sertima has been no more than a regurgitation of our ideas, directions, and story lines.
There was enslaved West Africans and their descendants. These oppressors started to oppress because of the disbelieve that these African people already were in the religion these Europeans deemed as European in origin.
That historical claim is obviously a BIG LIE.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: People with this kind of look still exist in the Middle East. One does not have to go to Africa to find curly hair
... ... …
All the Blacks that supposedly lived in ancient Israel seems to fail to show up when it concerns actual physical remains. Also as mentioned the sample of ancient Jewish hair that exist is not even black and seems not indicate any Black African.
Actual physical remains trumps artistic representations (which often are stylized and follow different artistic and cultural codes) but even the images can not be proven to show African black people.
Ok? And how was "Black African" hair portrayed during ancient times?
And something is off with the pictures you keep posting. For some reason they don't fit the "profile". You have populations twisted and flipped, because you come from a prejudice, traditionally racist European point of view.
Head of a Syrian KhM 3896a TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Middle Eastern men can many times be rather curly haired which everyone who has actually been there might have seen.
DNA studies have also showed that Jews and other Middle Easterners have some common traits genetically. Considering the geographical location of Israel one ought not to be very surprised.
If one shall return to the ancient art works so, even if one must be careful in interpreting them, many of the men in the old representations rather reminds of this man than of stereotypical African people.
…
This is the same guy, and the question is, why you keep lying?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Middle Eastern men can many times be rather curly haired which everyone who has actually been there might have seen.
You are getting desperate. You love to show the world one type. But not these:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: DNA studies have also showed that Jews and other Middle Easterners have some common traits genetically. Considering the geographical location of Israel one ought not to be very surprised.
That is actually not the case.
They show mainly European with middle Eastern and East African admixture. This is historically accurate.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: If one shall return to the ancient art works so, even if one must be careful in interpreting them, many of the men in the old representations rather reminds of this man than of stereotypical African people.
You are getting desperate with your photos. You have some explaining to do.
Who is who? Chaldeans and Hebrews.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
Newly deciphered Egyptian symbols on a 3,400-year-old limestone ostracon from Luxor’s Tomb of Senneferi appears to be the first written evidence of the ABC letter order of the early Semitic alphabet, according to a University of British Columbia Egyptologist.
In his article, “A Double Abecedary? Halaham and ‘Abgad on the TT99 Ostracon,” Prof. Thomas Schneider concludes that a small (approximately 10 x 10 centimeters, or about 4 x 4 inches) double-sided limestone flake was used by Egyptian scribes as a mnemonic device to remember the letter orders of not one, but two forms of early Semitic alphabets.
On one side of the flake is Schneider’s recent discovery: the transliteration into cursive Egyptian writing of the sounds that signify the beginnings of today’s Hebrew alphabet (Aleph, Bet, Gimel). On the other, a contemporary, though now lesser-known letter order, called “Halaḥam,” which was deciphered in 2015, on the same limestone flake, by Leiden University’s Dr. Ben Haring.
If people make their own topics, their posting will me unrestricted but if it's in another person's topic will be limited to how many big posts in a row
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If people make their own topics, their posting will me unrestricted but if it's in another person's topic will be limited to how many big posts in a row
Archeopteryx is a bit unaware of basic history, so it needs to be deciphered into multiple parts for him/ her.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
But one can still wonder why the descendants of West African slaves want to mimic the fantasies of their former oppressors instead of researching their own West African historical roots.
this is inflammatory, people don't like to be identified as descendants slaves I and also irrelevant) and told how to think. Just make the arguments but leave that part out
palace of Darius the Great at Persepolis. The figure is a guardian angel called a “lamassu,” Persian Empire (522–486 BC)
Frieze of archers, royal guards of Darius I, Persian Empire (522–486 BC)
One could argue the ethnicity of these
if they are a "black" or African type person or not as per American/European definitions
but it would be reasonable to call them black skinned and you can certainly see some brown skin of some Israeli Bedouins and Palestinians
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About hair, as I said, to determine exactly how the ancient Israels looked like using art is not always the best way. Actual remains are better. So we need to test more remains before we can be sure of anything.
Concerning hair there are very few samples of ancient preserved hair from Israel, but there are at least a sample of about 2000 years old male hair. It is not mentioned as typical African, and it is not even black. The idea of the ancient Israelites as all black and curly headed seems not to be corroborated by science.
But the main question remains: Why do some Black Americans want to borrow other peoples heritage just to enhance themselves? Be proud instead of your true West African heritage, and let other peoples be proud over their heritage.
People of West African descent can talk about what they want. Just like how you feel that you can put your nose in anything.
First your rant was about how curly hair is found everywhere on the planet, only to post a source with non-curly hair? With an image that is hard to see what we are actually looking at? Not that it matters, but I can flip it and tell you that this type of hair texture is found in sub Sahara Africa as well, including West Africa.
However, a better question is. How did (they) you determine that these are remains of ancient Hebrews, when not only Hebrews lived there during those days?
quote:"Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13]."
~Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin1,2,3 et al. 1 Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia 2 Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel 3 Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel
quote:Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country when Cepheus was king. There are some who say that a motley collection of landless Assyrians occupied a part of Egypt, and then built cities of their own, inhabiting the lands of the Hebrews and the nearer parts of Syria. Others again find a famous ancestry for the Jews in the Solymi who are mentioned with respect in the epics of Homer: this tribe is supposed to have founded Jerusalem (4) and named it after themselves.
(Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55 - 117), The Histories by Cornelius Tacitus.)
From the actual paper:
quote:The haplotypes for the Tomb of the Shroud individuals are commonly distributed throughout the North of Africa and the Middle East through to Eastern Europe.
[…]
A recent hypothesis [45] suggests that leprosy may have first appeared in the region not with Alexander but sometime earlier (circa 400 B.C.E or later), with diseased young slaves conveyed from India to Egypt on cargo ships. More recently a review of the origins and spread of leprosy has identified an East African origin with various routes of migration out of Africa into the Middle East and beyond [46].
There seems to be an unwritten axiom, those who seek never find, and those who find were not seeking. I have participated in over 20 seasons of excavation at five different sites over the past 25 years and I can’t count the times when suddenly, “out of the blue,” one of our students, volunteers, or a staff member suddenly finds something significant–and totally unexpected! Such was the case with the 15 line ostracon at Qumran in 1996, the engraved 1st-century menorah we found at Sepphoris in 1999 or the mysteriously inscribed stone vessel at Mt Zion in 2009.
quote:“Ziv said that many Jewish-Ethiopian customs go against modern Jewish practice, but perfectly align with customs and rituals described on scrolls found in the Qumran caves and in books dating back to the Second Temple Period. The Qumran Caves are where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, which include the third oldest Hebrew Bible ever found.”
quote:“The Book of Enoch was known since the eighteenth century when travelers became familiar with it. The book was preserved in Ethiopic (Ge'ez) and the research on the Enochic texts was mostly based on the Ethiopic version of the text until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Texts that relate to Enoch are vast within the Qumran collection.”
quote: Dr Pawel Wolf gave the MBI Al Jaber Public Lecture at the British Museum this year as part of the annual Seminar for Arabia Studies. The lecture was entitled 'Colonisation or Culture Transfer? The Almaqah temple of Wuqro (Tigray) sheds new light on Ethio-Sabaean culture contacts in the Northern Horn of Africa' and gave an insight into the fascinating work of the German Archaeological Institute (DAI) over the past few seasons.
Addi Akaweh, 2000 m above sea level, is in a region of Tigray which has not yet been explored for archaeological material. In the north of the Abyssinian highlands, the region is about 50 km north of the provincial capital of Mekelle, and seems to have been of importance due to its proximity to the ancient trade routes southeast of the main ancient centres of Axum and Yeha.
The temple of the Sabaean God Almaqah is one of the main archaeological discoveries of the area, though there are signs of an ancient settlement nearby and some building believed to have a sacred use at nearby Ziban Adi. They belong to a settlement area of the 1st millennium BC, a period of crucial social development in the Abyssinian highlands.
Since the Neolithic period, the Abyssinian highlands were part of a far-flung network of exchange relationships between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula, and both African and South Arabian cultural components can be seen in its development. South Arabian inscriptions, temples and sculptures from the early 1st millennium BC, have been found at Yeha and Hawlti.
Various models of social development have been applied to explain the strong South Arabian presence such as colonization or economic and cultural relations. More research and work needs to be carried out before the contacts can be properly understood.
The primary objective of the work of the DAI in Addi Akaweh is to comprehensively record and explore the archaeological material to shed light on the local cultural transformation in the context of regional contacts. Intercultural contacts and external relations with neighbouring cultural areas such as South Arabia, the Nile Valley and the south are still unexplored, and need to be investigated cross-regionally.
The Almaqah temple offers the ideal opportunity for the study of specific religious cultural components. The reconstruction of spatial concepts, ritual procedures and votive practices sheds light on the sacral-political space of the regional elite. The temple was built in the 8th to 6th centuries BC on the ruins of an earlier building and continued in use with several modifications to probably the 3rd century BC. It resembles the early South Arabian religious buildings in form and is built from local stone. Some of its most important features are a betyl made from naturally rounded boulders and perfectly preserved and libation altar donated by a hitherto unknown king named W'RN. His dedicatory inscription proves the ancient name of Yeha for the first time and demonstrates its importance as a national religious and political centre. It also shows that elements of royal elite cultural and ideological traditions of South Arabia and the African region are used together. C14 dating confirmed the Ethiopian Sabaean inscriptions to date to the 7th century BC.
(Carolyn Perry, July 26, 2012, The Sabaean Temple of Almaqah in Addi Akaweh (Tigray), Ethiopia)
Archeopteryx, you have some explaining to do.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
I hate it when certain folk play dumb like they don't know my stance on peninsular/gulf wavy hair curled at the ends by artifice. Whadaya think? U cn make me deny myself? Ain't no use to deny I harped on this overhead img of 'Roxanne' for years and years and
quote:Originally posted July 01, 2014 by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
I have nothing at stake in the "Persian Afro." I couldn't give a damn if their hair was nappier than a racoon's [rear] or straighter than a sow's [sugarwalls].
Like I said I used to think they had natural naps but after the experience of viewing busts from the perspective of directly above the crowned head I now stand by the ends of the hair being curled by artifice.
. Wow, looks like the original page 1 got axed.
Anyway, here's the pic I couldn't post back then to support my above quoted statement.
.
quote:Originally posted December 22, 2009 by alTakruri:
A careful look at the image below reveals that the bushy hair is so by artifice since immediately below the crown one can see the the natural wavy nature of the hair. This is true of nearly all the Persian art (Elamites excluded for one). One need examine many art pieces to notice these characteristics of their hair.
At one time I subscribed t the belief that nappy hair was depicted. Then I saw many and larger art pieces where I noticed the hair is wavy at the root and is only bushy at the ends. This led me to believe the bushiness was due to the knack of hairdressers.
The Persian 'du is elaborate in design. Their natural hair was loosely wavy, as you can see at the edge of the king's crown, then the ends were tightly curled. All in all it produces the effect of wooly hair like the curly Afro some Ladinos, Iranians, and Arabs used to wear back in the 1970's. You know, the "Jewfro"
Back in the 70's many wavy haired folk sported Afros. It wasn't because they were black or had nappy hair. It was because they admired the long nappy hair many blacks were wearing then.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Crown is stretching hair as well as weight of curls on bottom pulling hair
Assyrian, Head of a beardless royal attendant, possibly a eunuch, ca. 721–705 B.C.
^^what we have here is the mass of curls weighting down the hair are stretching it out so it's wavy strait If you were to cut this persons hair short it would be curly
Elamite, notice curl in beard especially visible near eye see info box under periode
Elamite man with lion cub, bas-relief from Persepolis
Head from statue of Herakles (Hercules) Roman 117-188 CE from villa of the emperor Hadrian at Tivoli, Italy. Portland Art Museum
Jewish nosed man, Nineveh, Palace of Senacherib, Lachish Room: Surrender Date ca. 700 BCE
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Head, Babylonian ca. late 8th–early 7th century B.C. Metropolitan Musuem
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Noted racists Nott & Gliddon also didn't want to accept Lachish depictions for what they delineate.
Oh, we're pretty sure of the Lachish art. Art becomes doubtful only where blx r nvolved. Yet somehow all other art reflects correctly. Scattered modern ndividuals here and there mean nothing. All Judaean men of Lachish have wooly hair. There is no modern Israeli city of all woolly haired men.
Anyway roundup of current Jewish DNA includes a ~4% indistinguishable Afr ancestry going back to Babylonian captivity times. The sources are posted above on this page
The earliest `Am Yisra'el spoke an African language and became a people on the African tectonic plate and, of course were not NW Euros nor continental Afrs. Judea skin colour was within African brown complexions as noted by contemporaneous classical authors. We have a Palestinian and old French Jewish self-descriptions as black & beautiful and plum black . One authoritative self-description say neither Germanic yte nor Sudanic blk, but in between.
`Am Yisra'el hair texture and skin colour is what it is.
Blk Amers got nothing to do with it.
Ancient Israel was a Levantine ppl varying in looks from SyroLebanese to SudanoEgyptian naturally. HellenoRoman Judea got some of its looks from N Med converts. These ppl have married and mated with every ppl they came in contact with.
Patai, Raphael & Jennifer The myth of the Jewish race Scribner: New York, 1975
Wait lemme save this pg b4 this whole thread gets axed too.
A very good thesis.. that matches the above.. Israel beginnings are with Egyptian mercenaries...VERY INTERESTING but when you watch listen to what he DOES NOT say or what he hesitates to say about "who" where hired Egyptian soldiers..
The Oriental Institute David Ilan | How Ancient Israel Began: A New Archaeological Perspective
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ... Head from statue of Herakles (Hercules) Roman 117-188 CE from villa of the emperor Hadrian at Tivoli, Italy. Portland Art Museum ...
It's time for you to start all over again, reading basic history. Especially when it comes to the ancient Greeks and Ethiopians.
quote: Herodotus51 tells us that he made inquiries respecting Heracles: the Egyptian he found to be decidedly older than the Greek one; but the Egyptians referred him to Phoenicia as the original source of the traditions. The Egyptian Heracles, who is mentioned by many other writers besides Herodotus and Diodorus, is said to have been called by his Egyptian name Som or Dsom, or, according to others, Chon,52 and, according to Pausanias,53 Maceris. According to Diodorus,54 Som was a son of Amon (Zeus); but Cicero calls him a son of Nilus, while, according to Ptolemaeus Hephaestion, Heracles himself was originally called Nilus. This Egyptian Heracles was placed by the Egyptians in the second of the series of the evolutions of their gods.55
Here I discuss the Africans present in Greek Mythology and their Legacy. Africans seemed to have a tremendous impact on the minds of Greek writers and historians.
Ironically the alleged "Hebrew exodus" from Egypt was when Egypt was under Greco-Roman control. As the story is told.
quote: Egyptian Tomb in Israel
The discovery of an Egyptian-style tomb at Tel Halif in the Negev Desert suggests an Egyptian colonial presence in southern Israel ca. 3000 B.C. Most burials in the region are in caves or shaft tombs attributed to the Canaanites, but this one, built during the Early Bronze 1B period (3300-3000 B.C.), is typical of contemporary tombs in Egypt, according to excavators Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and David Alon of the Joe Alon Regional Research Center in Israel. A 30-foot-long passageway descends to the burial chamber, which is about 26 feet long, 16 feet wide, and nine and one-half feet high. Within the dome-shaped chamber is a plastered stone platform on which the skeleton of a woman was found. About 25 years old when she died, she was found in a fetal position facing east, characteristic of Egyptian burials.
That an Egyptian was buried at Tel Halif "gives us evidence of a full-blown Egyptian colony in Israel right after the crystallization of the first Egyptian state," says Levy. "Egyptians were known to have very profound and elaborate belief systems about the afterlife and what was required to get there. One of these requirements was to die and be properly entombed on Egyptian soil. I think it's very likely that this part of southern Israel was considered part of greater Egypt during this period."
Egyptian ceramics, seal impressions, and bread molds found at Tel Halif support an Egyptian occupation. Among these artifacts is a potsherd engraved with the serekh, or sign, of King Narmer, who is believed to have united Upper and Lower Egypt between 3050 and 3000 B.C.
Ancient Faces: Romano-Egyptian Mummy Portrait of a Bearded Man
Place: Egypt (Place created) Date: about 150 – 170 This image is housed at the Getty Villa. This is an educational center and museum dedicated to the study of the arts and cultures of ancient Greece, Rome, and Etruria. The collection has 44,000 Greek, Roman, and Etruscan antiquities dating from 6,500 BC to 400 AD.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
This Persian example has long natural low wavy hair.
This 'Elamite' example has naturally woolly hair. Upper hair appears wavy from filet pull pressure. Lower hair unconstrained by filet is curly 'fro hair. I've seen this hair type in a Belarus native. It was stiffer than similar hair on a German.
Note the detail difference.
Another example of naturally wavy hair curled at the ends by artifice, same as the 1st image except: "See ma, no crown!"
Thass all folks! Done this too many times. Enough Groundhog Day repetition. Send me a memo when some value add gets posted. Carry on w/t cockamamie spin.
Addenda Three types of West Eurasian naturally curly hair.
Example of wavy hair tending to large loose curls reminiscent of Mesopotamian/Gulf so-called 'afrohair'.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
A very good thesis.. that matches the above.. Israel beginnings are with Egyptian mercenaries...VERY INTERESTING but when you watch listen to what he DOES NOT say or what he hesitates to say about "who" where hired Egyptian soldiers..
The Oriental Institute David Ilan | How Ancient Israel Began: A New Archaeological Perspective
Mm hmm yeah that's them dialectics saying so much more than any supraliminal text.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
This 'Elamite' example has naturally woolly hair. Upper hair appears wavy from filet pull pressure. Lower hair unconstrained by filet is curly 'fro hair. I've seen this hair type in a Belarus native. It was stiffer than similar hair on a German.
"Woolly hair" is often associated with an African phenotype overall but the above suggests not necessarily .
.
Head from statue of Herakles (Hercules) Roman 117-188 CE from villa of the emperor Hadrian at Tivoli, Italy. Portland Art Museum
Nineveh, Palace of Senacherib, Lachish Room: Surrender Date ca. 700 BCE
In looking at this Lachish relief it is not clear what the hair type is
It could be like the Roman sculpture before it or not The circular pattern, how it is arranged on the head doesn't seem realistic
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Mm hmm yeah that's them dialectics saying so any much more than supraliminal text.
I don't know what this means
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
^ Sour grapes Lachish commentary but everybody's entitled to their opinion no matter how ...
LACHISH MAN
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Jewish nosed man, Nineveh, Palace of Senacherib, Lachish Room: Surrender Date ca. 700 BCE
.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Nineveh, Palace of Senacherib, Lachish Room: Surrender Date ca. 700 BCE
In looking at this Lachish relief it is not clear what the hair type is
The circular pattern, how it is arranged on the head doesn't seem realistic
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Whoops
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
This 'Elamite' example has naturally woolly hair. Upper hair appears wavy from filet pull pressure. Lower hair unconstrained by filet is curly 'fro hair. I've seen this hair type in a Belarus native. It was stiffer than similar hair on a German.
"Woolly hair" is often associated with an African phenotype overall but the above suggests not necessarily
quote:Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago. […]
Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).
"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan
Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710 doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Nineveh, Palace of Senacherib, Lachish Room: Surrender Date ca. 700 BCE
In looking at this Lachish relief it is not clear what the hair type is
It could be like the Roman sculpture before it or not The circular pattern, how it is arranged on the head doesn't seem realistic
quote: A parsimonious explanation for these observations is that they reflect a history in which many of the Jewish groups descend from a common ancestral population which was itself admixed with Africans, prior to the beginning of the Jewish diaspora that occurred in 8th to 6th century BC [41]. The dates that emerge from our ROLLOFF analysis in the non-Mizrahi Jews could also reflect events in the Greek and Roman periods, when there were large communities of Jews in North Africa, particularly Alexandria [34], [42].
~Moorjani et al The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews PLoS Genet. 2011 Apr; 7(4): e1001373
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ Ish Gebor please add article title and the part of the text before "A parsimonious explanation for these observations"
because it's what observations? The thought is incomplete
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ Ish Gebor please add article title and the part of the text before "A parsimonious explanation for these observations"
because it's what observations? The thought is incomplete
I don't see the problem.
quote: We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.
Author Summary
Southern Europeans and Middle Eastern populations are known to have inherited a small percentage of their genetic material from recent sub-Saharan African migrations, but there has been no estimate of the exact proportion of this gene flow, or of its date. Here, we apply genomic methods to show that the proportion of African ancestry in many Southern European groups is 1%–3%, in Middle Eastern groups is 4%–15%, and in Jewish groups is 3%–5%. To estimate the dates when the mixture occurred, we develop a novel method that estimates the size of chromosomal segments of distinct ancestry in individuals of mixed ancestry. We verify using computer simulations that the method produces useful estimates of population mixture dates up to 300 generations in the past. By applying the method to West Eurasians, we show that the dates in Southern Europeans are consistent with events during the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. The dates in the Jewish groups are older, consistent with events in classical or biblical times that may have occurred in the shared history of Jewish populations.
~Moorjani et al. The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews PLoS Genet. 2011 Apr; 7(4): e1001373 ____________________________________
[ 19. March 2020, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Notice the Assyrian at left's dotted portion of hair is depicted in the same way as the Israelites I suspect if his hair was short it would all be like that. Also his nose is somewhat similar to the middle figure and they all have beards, they look like kin, not resembling Egyptians
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: thanks, just trying to make everything clear
?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Notice the Assyrian at left's dotted portion of hair is depicted in the same way as the Israelites I suspect if his hair was short it would all be like that. Also his nose is somewhat similar to the middle figure and they all have beards, they look like kin, not resembling Egyptians
That's because this is Assyrian art, not Egyptian. lol smh It's all about connecting the "dots".
Notice the Assyrian at left's dotted portion of hair is depicted in the same way as the Israelites I suspect if his hair was short it would all be like that. Also his nose is somewhat similar to the middle figure and they all have beards, they look like kin, not resembling Egyptians
.
Obviously wavy-straight flop hair from root to 7 or 8+ inches necessitates a short cut will be leaving wavy-straight hair. Assyria vs Judah noses are nothing alike except they're noses. Nostril, tip, slope, bridge of left are noticably dissimilar to center and right.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Medium wavy hair cut short vs woolly hair cut short.
In real life this is what you get in DR or ADOS ba ba shops. Yup.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
seriously? Lacishites were brothers with waves?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Look at the beard of the Assyrian at left That's how his hair would look if short
The wavy portion of the hair is probably combed out with oils otherwise his beard would be like that
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: seriously?
Dis Deshret ain't it? The citizens of Lachish were members of Israelite nation of Judah ~2700 years ago. Price and later Moorjani both found Israelites of that era is where the ~4% Afr genomic ancestry comes from in modern Jewry.
Beard is a nice try distraction away from the hair which all can see, no speculation.
No escaping the natural fact of the head hair texture from the root flopping on down
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Elamites
__________________ Assyrian,The Royal Lion Hunt c. 645-635 BC Nineveh, North Palace. Iraq.
Nice try see the Assyrian boy has uniform hair. The adult has that wavy stuff above the curls on his hair. That is probably combed out with some oils. The Assyrian boy looks like a younger version of the middle Elamite above
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [ Neo Assyrian
Nice try see the Assyrian boy has uniform hair. The adult has that wavy stuff above the curls on his hair. That is probably combed out with some oils [
mm hmm nice try at switching goal posts.
Yeah I remember Swenet posting that img yrs ago. Groundhog Day repetition trap theme playing in bkgrnd. Nuthin new. Nothing added not stated from back then. Then as now no one could put up no supporting living evidence.
But I'm sure everyone everywhere herb-greased, oiled, and perfumed their hair as appropriate to their culture.
It's a universal human thing from Paleolithic to present times
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Again, the kid's hair, checkmate
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Falsemate
Uh enough straying from Lachish and not postings Swenet's text to go along with his "the kid" picture.
Sennacherib's artist was careful delineating Judahite head hair from Assyrian head hair
Judean hair/beard is tighter woolly than Assyrian looser curling hairs. The Lessing resolution shows this clearly.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
1) if "woolly" means afro textured hair that cannot be determined by the above art
2) no real person has hair that is straight and then curled on the bottom which means part of the hair depicted is not in it's natural condition. The upper beard hair of the Assyrian shows the natural condition as well as the Assyrian boy. If you think otherwise show a photo of a person that has wavy straight hair but is curled on the bottom in this drastically different way
In Egyptian art being bearded is most similar to other Asiatics not Nehesy. What modern people most resemble these Lachishites? I'm not sure
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 1) if "woolly" means afro textured hair that cannot be determined by the above art
2) no real person has hair that is straight and then curled on the bottom which means part of the hair depicted is not in it's natural condition. The upper beard hair of the Assyrian shows the natural condition as well as the Assyrian boy. If you think otherwise show a photo of a person that has wavy straight hair but is curled on the bottom in this drastically different way
In Egyptian art being bearded is most similar to other Asiatics not Nehesy. What modern people most resemble these Lachishites? I'm not sure
Yoruba Men... yes.. Yoruba men.. they even wear the Jehu cap
310 Muhammad Bello, in ARNETT 1922:
a) [p.13]
West of Katsina and Gobir there are seven separate countries called “Banza Bakwai”.
311 These are Zamfara and Kebbi, Yauri, Nufi [Nupe], Yoruba,
312 Borgu and Gurma.
Each of these has a Sarki [i.e. king] who is equal to the others ,
b) [p.16] The country of Yoruba is extensive and has streams and forests and rocks and hills. There are many curious and beautiful things in it. The ships of the Christians come there.
313 The people of Yoruba are descended from the Kanaana [= Canaanites] and the kindred of Nimrud.
314 Now the reason of their having settled in the west according to what we are told is that Yaarubu son of Kahtan drove them out of Irak to westwards
315 and they travelled between Masar [Misr, i.e. Egypt] and Habash [= Ethiopia] until they reached Yoruba. It happened that they left a portion of their people in every country they passed. It is said that the Sudanese who live up on the hills [i.e. the Nigerian Plateau] are all their kindred; so also the people of Yauri are their kindred. The people of Yoruba resemble those of Nufi in appearance.
316. In the land of Yoruba are found the birds green in colour which are called ‘Babaga’ in Arabic and which we call ‘Aku’. It is a bird which talks and is beautiful.
317. Now in this country of Yoruba there are many wonderful things. Mallam Mohamman Masani has related them in his book Nafhat’ul Ambariya. He has also written further about this country in his book Azharu Ruba about Yoruba.
318. The people of Yoruba catch slaves from our land and sell them to the Christians so we are told. I mention this to stop people selling Moslem slaves to them, because of those who buy them. Harm will result from this.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Each reply is funnier and more illogical than the last.
Ha ha ha thinking art must be photographic to depict reality!
Right, the crosshatches in Assyrian art for both Lachish and Nile Kushi mean "negro's" hair must be fought.
Nevermind Nile Kushi have woolly hair, right.
So we cannot tell what hair texture any people have when looking at pre Renaisance Euro art.
What kind of ethnocentric illogic is at work just speculating away.
<< Yeah I know gotta keep iteratng post count no matter what >>
My question is does anyone else doubt real hair textures are etched in the Assyrian reliefs? If Assyrian viewers didn't recognize various texture differences of various peoples why did the artist bother sculpting all those many different textures and styles? Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
You must be joking. Trying to use my own challenge against me?
Ain't nobody that slick, nice try.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: show a photo of a person that has wavy straight hair but is curled on the bottom in this drastically different way
I think all the real analysis is done. This is just sour grapes chit chat. The objective is not to convince doubters of the obvious. A waste of time like hunting spotless leopards or chasing wild geese.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Hairstyles in hairstyles out hairstyles laughably unattractive hairstyles relegated to historical eras
Does it mean nobody did back in those days? The sculptors just made them up there were no models? Women Try Ancient Hairstyles (10 min video link) Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I mean it would be one thing if they're were'nt native Bedouins who looked like this...
Posted by Nassbean (Member # 23084) on :
I'm waiting for the black east asia thread too
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I doubt the Yoruba are Canaanite, we still have dark skinned Bedouin and Yemeni etc. makes more sense Lachish reliefs were depicting a Mehri or Socotran type among Israel
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Yoruba Men... yes.. Yoruba men.. they even wear the Jehu cap
[ 22. March 2020, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
(quote removed to reduce repetition)
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I doubt the Yoruba are Canaanite, we still have dark skinned Bedouin and Yemeni etc. makes more sense Lachish reliefs were depicting a Mehri or Socotran type among Israel
[/QB][/QUOTE]
This is not an easy subject.. and does not lend itself to forum/thread explanations.. I too was a doubter... but geneticists focus on Yoruba lend me to "studying" Yoruba history, people and customs as much as I could on the internet..
The first question one must answer when pursuing this subject.. is Who are the Yoruba? Many people now counted among the Yoruba are not the original OYO Yoruba but grafted on through history, conquest, slavery etc..
Fulani Bello had no skin in the game, he was not an google professor Afrocentric.. Nor did he have access to the Lacish reliefs...
So we have to take into account his version of events.
now to the popular "history" you also have this account - Wikipedia
Oduduwa was a Yoruba divine king. According to tradition he was the holder of the title of the Ooni of Ile-Ife, the Yoruba holy city. He was not only the first ruler of a unified Ife,[1][2] but also the progenitor of various independent royal dynasties in Yorubaland and ancestor of their numerous crowned kings.[3].[4] His name, phonetically written by Yoruba language-speakers as Odůduwŕ and sometimes contracted as Ooduwa, Odudua or Oňdua is today venerated as "the hero, the warrior, the leader and father of the Yoruba race".[5] For a long time as propagated by early writers of Yoruba history, like the Bayajidda legend of the Hausa people, he was said to be an Eastern prince whose people were driven out of their kingdom in Mecca in Arabia [6] and were forced to migrate in a long march to present day south western Nigeria, though this belief is now thought to reflect later Islamic influences.[7] Through a war lasting many years, Oduduwa was able to defeat the forces of the 13 indigenous communities of Ife led by Obatala and formed these communities into a single Ife unit.
Back to the Lacish reliefs...
Egypt was ruling Israel at the time of the founding of Israel. Mercenaries were imported to the land of Israel by the Egyptians.. there is no doubt that Nubians/Upper Egyptians were among those mercenaries.
Isaiah 20:4 New International Version (NIV) 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite/Ethiopian exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt’s shame.
Maybe Oduduwa was a Yemeni... ?
I don't know... I am still studying the subject...
But the coincidences are interesting..
By the way.. the Bible never mentions anything about Soqotrians....
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Notice how the dotted portion of the Assyrians hair and beard has the same dots as the Israelite hair
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] You must be joking. Trying to use my own challenge against me?
Ain't nobody that slick, nice try.
Tukular can't be serious. He is trying to say that the Assyrian soldier, top left's hair can be explained by this Europeans woman's fake curls
.
.
^^ But you seem to have sour grapes over the checkmate here. The Assyrian boy's hair shows the natural condition of Assyrian hair. The straight portion in the top has been artificially combed out or crimped with oils
that part is combed out otherwise the Assyrian boy's hair would look like that
And we how the Assyrian boy's hair closely resembles these Elamites
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
wavy straight portion at top of head
Frieze of Archers wavy straight portion at top of head
As we can see the hair is naturally curly in this Persian art. The straight portion at the top is merely being pulled straight by the headband
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Yes, it's very similar to this hair texture.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I mean it would be one thing if they're were'nt native Bedouins who looked like this...
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
As we can see the hair is naturally curly in this Persian art. The straight portion at the top is merely being pulled straight by the headband
From my understanding Persia didn't exist yet, but I could be wrong.
From what I read several groups moved into the region and replaced each other constantly.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 1) if "woolly" means afro textured hair that cannot be determined by the above art
2) no real person has hair that is straight and then curled on the bottom which means part of the hair depicted is not in it's natural condition. The upper beard hair of the Assyrian shows the natural condition as well as the Assyrian boy. If you think otherwise show a photo of a person that has wavy straight hair but is curled on the bottom in this drastically different way
Have a nice day.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Notice how the dotted portion of the Assyrians hair and beard has the same dots as the Israelite hair
.
Until you have superior resolution and light damping and compare elsewhere
and it doesn't matter because Assyrian ringlet bearding styles aren't head hair. And anyway many beards naturally tend to crispness
Falsemate
Uh enough straying from Lachish and not postings Swenet's text to go along with his "the kid" picture.
Sennacherib's artist was careful delineating Judahite head hair from Assyrian head hair
Judean hair/beard is tighter woolly than Assyrian looser curling hairs. The Lessing resolution shows this clearly.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The look of what is at least believed to be Israelites can vary in ancient art
Egyptian art
Egyptian art
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Interesting about ancient male Jewish hair
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
Some more Egyptian art depicting people from Middle East
quote:This painting depicts a family of nomadic traders entering Egypt from Canaan in the 19th cent. BCE. This is a very rare depiction of ancient Semites, dressed in colorful tunics, as opposed to the Egyptians wearing only white waistcloths.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Some more Egyptian art depicting people from Middle East
quote:This painting depicts a family of nomadic traders entering Egypt from Canaan in the 19th cent. BCE. This is a very rare depiction of ancient Semites, dressed in colorful tunics, as opposed to the Egyptians wearing only white waistcloths.
Posted by One Third African (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some more Egyptian art depicting people from Middle East
quote:This painting depicts a family of nomadic traders entering Egypt from Canaan in the 19th cent. BCE. This is a very rare depiction of ancient Semites, dressed in colorful tunics, as opposed to the Egyptians wearing only white waistcloths.
Might want to post the original mural straight from the tomb instead of a modern reproduction.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
(De Agostini Picture Library/G. Sioen/ Bridgeman Images)A 12th Dynasty (1981–1802 B.C.) fresco from the tomb of Khnumhotep III in Beni Hassan shows a group of Semitic people, possibly Canaanite merchants, arriving in Egypt. They are thought to be related culturally to the dynasty that called itself the Hyksos.
One can see that they are depicted with slightly different hue than the Egyptians. But as always, this is art, following the conventions of that culture, no photos, so one must always be a bit careful. And even photos vary in tone and brightness. Better go there and see them in original.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: How do I reduce size of a pic?
some of the image hosting sites have size change options before you finalize the picture upload, that is the easy way, you start an account with one of the free image hosting sites
and other way to do it is know how to look up how to use snipping screen shots on a PC or Mac and before getting to this stage use commands to reduce the size of the page where the photo you want is. Then using the snipping function you copy and save the photo
then, having set up and image host you upload the reduced sized saved photo to the image host where it provides a new URL include copying the URL to the post if that is requested at source. You must use an image hosting site, the resizing is done there or before you post to it
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Sometimes it is best to get things directly out of the horses mouth. Here is a a small piece found in Israel, and about 2800 years old.
quote: This Monday, June 4, 2018 photo shows a detailed figurine of a king's head on display at the Israel Museum, dating to biblical times, and found last year near Israel's northern border with Lebanon, in Jerusalem. A palm-sized enigmatic sculpture of a king's head dating back nearly 3,000 years has set off a modern-day mystery caper as scholars try to figure out whose face it depicts. The 5-centimeter (2-inch) head is an exceedingly rare example of figurative art from the Holy Land during the 9th century BC, a period associated with biblical kings. (AP Photo/Ilan Ben Zion)
The 5-centimeter (2-inch) sculpture is an exceedingly rare example of figurative art from the Holy Land during the 9th century B.C. — a period associated with biblical kings. Exquisitely preserved but for a bit of missing beard, nothing quite like it has been found before.
While scholars are certain the stern bearded figure wearing a golden crown represents royalty, they are less sure which king it symbolizes, or which kingdom he may have ruled.
I wonder why the made that head so small if he was a "king"?
quote: In 922 B.C., the nation of Israel was torn into two nations, Israel to the north and Judah to the south. Israel was racked by internal tribal differences and, subsequently, became susceptible to frequent invasions.
You have some explaining to do.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Khufu (?)
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Khufu (?)
Ok, you do have somewhat of a point. However, this was made thousands of years prior, 2589–2566 BC.
At least we know it's Khufu and his (social) "stature". No pun intended. And 800 B.C. they were more skillful as appose to 2589–2566 BC.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
At least we know it's Khufu
p5-
THE KHUFU STATUETTE IS IT AN OLD KINGDOM SCULPTURE? Zahi HAWASS
quote:The statuette is identified as Khufu,king of the IVth dynasty ,by the ka name of the king,inscribed on the right side of the throne(PI.I).Petrie immediately dated this statuette to the IVth dynasty on the basis of the name inscribed on the throne,convincing all subsequent archaeologists and art historians of the validity of his assertion and dismissing as superfluous any thought of comparison with IVth dynasty sculpture.I disagree with this dating and believe instead that the statuette was manufactured in the XXVIth dynasty (26th),also known as the Neo-Memphite period.Let us now examine the archaeological evidence pertaining to the discovery of this statuette as well as the artistic and historical evidence connected with the IVth and XXVIth dynasties.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ... p5-
THE KHUFU STATUETTE IS IT AN OLD KINGDOM SCULPTURE? Zahi HAWASS
The statuette is identified as Khufu,king of the IVth dynasty ,by the ka name of the king,inscribed on the right side of the throne(PI.I).Petrie immediately dated this statuette to the IVth dynasty on the basis of the name inscribed on the throne,convincing all subsequent archaeologists and art historians of the validity of his assertion and dismissing as superfluous any thought of comparison with IVth dynasty sculpture.I disagree with this dating and believe instead that the statuette was manufactured in the XXVIth dynasty (26th),also known as the Neo-Memphite period.Let us now examine the archaeological evidence pertaining to the discovery of this statuette as well as the artistic and historical evidence connected with the IVth and XXVIth dynasties.
You be like OJ, I be like 1985 … Ok?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
On p31 in this 2018 republication of a 2006 book Hawass says nothing about the Khufu statuette as a post NK product, He only mentions it was found at the temple of KhentiAmentiu ancient netcher of Abydos' City of the Dead, the first of its kind ever erected, founded in the late Predynastic period. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81C1E86MYgL.jpg
@ Ish Gebor Can't thank you enough. Been searching and searching and searching since 1998 for hi-def images of the facial profiles of the Three Elders of Lachish on their knees in front of Sennacherib.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Relief fragment of Sanakht in the pose of smiting an enemy. Originally from the Sinai, now EA 691 on display at the British Museum. (3rd Dyn)
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Sometimes it is best to get things directly out of the horses mouth. Here is a a small piece found in Israel, and about 2800 years old.
The folks who found this thing, have an inferiority/ superiority complex. They saw some thing "looking white", so it had to be a royalty. Let's make him a king. It's complete baseless babble, but a very classical school of thought way of "thinking". (no pun intended)
It could be that he was a random dude from foreign army, who invaded the region. That is what makes most sense. And even if he was a king, he's not local.
quote: Ben Zion writes that Abel is significant for its location at the junction of ancient powers. Another Biblical reference to the city, found in Kings 1 15:20, includes Abel in a list of places attacked by Aramean King Ben Hadad during his invasion of Israel's territory.
[…]
Based on carbon dating’s inability to pinpoint the statue’s date beyond some point during the 9th century B.C., as well as the geopolitical conflicts that characterized the region at the time, archaeologists have a wide range of candidates for the figure’s identity.
Other articles tell us that this little thing was found in the North, Abel Beth Maacah, near the modern day city of Metula, while Lachish was in the South. Meaning you are hopelessly posting random stuff. It's like a randomly swinging your fists in the dark, in hopes that you will hit something.
quote: King Hazael? A detailed figurine of a king's head on display at the Israel Museum, dating to biblical times, and found near Israel's northern border with Lebanon, in Jerusalem.
“The guy kind of represents the generic way Semitic people are described,” she said.
Because Carbon-14 dating cannot give a more exact date for the statue’s creation other than sometime in the 9th century, the field of potential candidates is large. Yahalom-Mack posited it could be kings Ben Hadad or Hazael of Damascus, Ahab or Jehu of Israel, or Ithobaal of Tyre, all characters appearing in the biblical narrative.
quote: In one biblical story, a traitor to King David seeks refuge in the town. King David’s army besieges it and demands the traitor be given up. In response, the people of Abel Beth Maacah cut off the traitor’s head and toss it over the walls. Getting what they wanted, the Israelites end the siege.
[…]
The sculpture itself is only two inches in size. It’s well preserved and mostly intact. The figure has a beard and is wearing a crown. It’s considered a rare example of figurative art during that time period. Figurative art is defined as representational art derived from real objects or people. The hairstyle of the figure with a beard gives some clues to his ethnic identity.
The hair is pulled back in thick locks that cover the ears and is held in place by a striped headband. The art form is similar to how ancient Egyptian artists portrayed Semitic peoples of the Near East.
It’s still not known who the head depicted is and from what nationality they were from, though it’s likely a royal figure. The man portrayed was certainly an important person in his community.
But they have no clue what king it may have been or from which kingdom. The time period of the sculpture is from the period of biblical kings. After the death of David’s son, King Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel split into two entities with separate kingships, Israel in the north and Judah in the south.
Scholars have guessed at some contemporary names the sculpture could represent. They include biblical figures such as King Ben Hadad or Hazael of Damascus, Ethbaal of Tyre, and King Ahab or Jehu of Israel, whose capital was Samaria.
Knowing what king it might be would answer some questions. However, there are no known references or sources to check outside of the Bible narrative.
I'll post the following along, so we know what we are talking about.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Interesting about ancient male Jewish hair
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
Anyway, Afro textured hair is usually lice-free due to the texture lice have a hard time surviving in it. The tighter the curls the more difficult it will be for the lice to survive in. And reddish hair "can" be a sign of malnutrition.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Parthian Phrygian cap helmet, 249-224 B.C. Boston Museum of Fine Arts
Jehu-Obelisk.
Problem solved, it's a liberty hat.
Symbols of Liberty - NBK takes an in depth look at the Symbols of Liberty, the Liberty Cap and Columbia
Liberty cap, a brimless felt cap, such as the Phrygian cap or pileus, emblematic of a slave's manumission in classical antiquity.
The Phrygian cap or liberty cap is a soft conical cap with the apex bent over, associated in antiquity with several peoples in Eastern Europe and Anatolia, including Phrygia, Dacia, and the Balkans. During the French Revolution it came to signify freedom and the pursuit of liberty, although Phrygian caps did not originally function as liberty caps. The original cap of liberty was the Roman pileus, the felt cap of manumitted (emancipated) slaves of ancient Rome, which was an attribute of Libertas, the Roman goddess of liberty. Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Interesting about ancient male Jewish hair
quote:One of the more fascinating finds in this tomb, one that has not received much attention, was the preservation of a sample of Jewish male hair. The hair was lice-free, and was trimmed or cut evenly, probably indicating that the family buried in this tomb practiced good hygiene and grooming. The length of the hair was medium to short, averaging 3-4 inches. The color was reddish.
Anyway, Afro textured hair is usually lice-free due to the texture lice have a hard time surviving in it. The tighter the curls the more difficult it will be for the lice to survive in. And reddish hair "can" be a sign of malnutrition.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
I am not sure if, and how these two directly correlate.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
Nasaba Historical Tours, host/ tour guide Ya'oh-shob.
Siege of Lachish - British Museum
Take a look with me at the depictions of the Ancient Israelites (Ghabaray ban Ya'oh-sharal) from the Kingdom of Judah (Ya'oh-da) by the conquering Assyrians.
Because if you are malnurished, so poor you cant afford to eat but you have time to practice food hygene...
Anyway the tomb belonged to an elite Family, so this further makes the malnurished nature of the hair color seem even more silly and ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
I am not sure if, and how these two directly correlate.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Because if you are malnurished, so poor you cant afford to eat but you have time to practice food hygene...
Anyway the tomb belonged to an elite Family, so this further makes the malnurished nature of the hair color seem even more silly and ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I doubt the color was due to malnurishment considering the indication of good hygene..
I am not sure if, and how these two directly correlate.
Seems that there has been some phenotypic variation over time in the part of the world that we now call Israel. Here is a report of a Chalcolithic population which incorporated genes for blue eyes and light skin in it´s genome.
The Levant, including Palestine, is a nexus for three continents. People from each streamed into it at various and multiple times throughout history.
Yes anomalous and far from any norm unless close to Anatolia as in AE art. Your marvelous blue-eyed race isn't responsible for Levantine culture anywhere from Ebla to Edom.
The archive's got this covered.
There is no blue-eyed norm for ancient south Levant.
No recollection of blue eyes in Hebrew lit. Not until the pseudo-Aramaic Zohar of Spain thousands of years after the fact do blue eyes enter as a description for any Israelite.
Introduction of blue eyes from the Zagros has nothing to do with any earliest picture of an Israelite. Pictures of some Retjenu show them with light eyes, presumed blue or grey rather than hazel.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Reddish hair 2000 years ago, lightly colored statue heads 2800 years ago, and some blue eyes 6500 years ago. At least it seems that everyone was not always "black" in what is now Israel, during the millennia.
The research of the demography of the ancient Levant continues. Shall be interesting to see what we find in the future.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1: 3813bc27c2b6de8642c2d4d[/IMG]
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again. [/QB]
As if all ancient art was hyper realistic, as if there were not any artistic conventions or symbolic meanings of different stylistic traits. Those ancient pictures are not photos.
Seems as soon as you see some curly locks you immediately think "black". Must be boring to live in such limited world.
Has anyone here actually been in the Middle East, or do you just sit and Google ancient pictures and draw your own conclusions?
Seems some people live in a simplified world of Black and White without having any clue about the complexity of reality. Get out of your study chambers, travel some, and do some archaeological field work
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Reddish hair 2000 years ago, lightly colored statue heads 2800 years ago, and some blue eyes 6500 years ago. At least it seems that everyone was not always "black" in what is now Israel, during the millennia.
The research of the demography of the ancient Levant continues. Shall be interesting to see what we find in the future.
That may not be true,mutations in the hair and eyes,assuming it wasn't some kind of natural dye doesn't mean the folks had to necessarily look like the contemporary inhabitant. There is no reason the ancient couldn't have some kind of tyrosinase positive form of albinism.
Here's a description of OCA3 albinism
Clinical description Visual anomalies, such as nystagmus, are frequently undetectable and patients usually present with one of two phenotypes: rufous OCA (ROCA), characterized by red-bronze skin color, blue or brown irises and ginger-red hair, or brown OCA (BOCA), characterized by light to brown hair and a light to brown or tan skin color. The clinical features of OCA3 have been considered as rather mild, and in the rare cases of non-African patients, reddish hair color has been reported. A Japanese girl was reported with having OCA3 who presented with blond hair and light skin (with a small Mongolian spot), was able to tan and was negative for nystagmus.
Etiology OCA3 is caused by a mutation in the tyrosinase-related protein 1, TYRP1, gene located on chromosome 9p23. The majority of BOCA cases are seen in OCA2, but a few BOCA phenotypes have been reported with mutations in the TYRP1 gene, indicating OCA3.
They look something like this.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Who proposed everyone was black, something determined by alleles of skin color genes, in the south Levant?
Plus, blue eyes are not white skin. South Africa probably holds the record for blue eyes and brown skin if we ignore the fact of blue eyes and brown skin in various early Holocene Europeans. "At least it seems that everyone was not always ['white'] in what is now [Europe], during the millennia"
First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin
First Irish populations had dark skin similar to Cheddar Man, DNA research suggests
Etc
But really? So what?
Searched and can't find those aDNA and hair eye skin charts that were put up not so long ago. Meanwhile here's the ADMIXTURE involving Villabruna/Hotu and Anatoli exemplared ancestries that presumably left the Zagros to add to Mesopotamian and Levantine populations[*]. Levant and Iran boxed.
Neolithic Levant also has a slither of Ful exemplared ancestry (forest) alongside the Sahra-Med. At lower Ks, Sahra-Med populations are also forest. This suggests co- genesis of the two as evinced by Humid Period art in Algeria, Libya, and Niger. Mykenaea's got a touch of that forest colored Ful exemplified ancestry too.
Late Pleistocene up to now 'Out of Africa' happened continuously. Flow from every possible node of exode. The Atlantic Mediterranean to the Bab em Mandel unlimited.
=-=-=
[*]
quote:Originally posted 23 May, 2014 by Tukuler:
There is no other word for the inhabitants and emmigrating peoples from the Caucasus Mountains other than the word Caucasian because that is precisely what they are, CAUCASIANS.
Caucasians passed down through the Daryal Gorge to enter Mesopotamia and the Levant to influx resident populations and to form new ethnies of their own.
The eastern Mediterranean is a nexus of three continents. It and the Arabian Peninsula were peopled by other migrant invaders who didn't originally speak in Afrisian. Semitic speakers were among the first but weren't the only inhabitants of the region. Chadic and/or Nilo-Saharan speakers likely preceded them. Indo-Europeans, Caucasics, Altaics, etc., came after them probably via Daryal Gorge through the Caucasus.
From this can be gathered, if anything, that "Semites" are partially North East Africans who migrated into the Arabian peninsula and moved northward (as far as up to Turkey) where they met and mingled with and were maybe blocked from further spread by southward invading Eurasian peoples (Altaic and Indo-European speakers) in pre-historic times. Upon the eclipse of the southerners the hybrids and assimilated settlers (beginning circa -1800 with the maryannu caste) became heir to the names and languages of the original people they married into and whose culture they emulated and lexicon enriched.
People look at the familiar faces from the region as shown by the media and never see all the faces on the back streets and non-urban areas which more than likely resemble the original indigenees even before E3b bearers introduced Afrisan and the beginnings of neolithic industries.
It was the good life Afrisan speakers initiated and the indigenees nurtured that made the place a magnet for immigrants to cross the Daryal Gorge to infuse themselves in SWANEA. And Indo-European speakers continued to migrate in whatever numbers especially in Roman Byzantine and Crusader eras. Not to count the sexual slave trade (particularly in Circassian females) with the rise of Islam.
I'd revise bits of that, if freshly posting it today, but the bulk and certainly the gist of it is factual.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
How come the art is OK when you like and flaky when it doesn't support your Eurocentricity (ideas originated by Europeans)?
"Seems as soon as you see some [blue eyes] you immediately think "[non-]black". Must be boring to live in such limited world." Says the man who brought up color expecting all to bow down to Bwana's opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1: 3813bc27c2b6de8642c2d4d[/IMG]
I don't know the amount of mental gymnastics you had to pull off in order to write what you just did, but as the artwork(s) show, the curl pattern is much tighter, i.e it's African textured hair. Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Try again.
As if all ancient art was hyper realistic, as if there were not any artistic conventions or symbolic meanings of different stylistic traits. Those ancient pictures are not photos.
Seems as soon as you see some curly locks you immediately think "black". Must be boring to live in such limited world. [/QB]
.
Why has anthropology since white Euros invented it listed thin noses and lips, curly to wavy hair, as immediate indicators to think "white", even in the darkest inner African Afrs?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Some facial reconstructions of ancient people found in Israel. Some may see it as white washing, but on the other hand, does anyone here actually believe he/she knows more about the populations of ancient Israel than the anthropologist behind these reconstructions?
How many ancient remains have you actually examined? How much anthropological or archaeological fieldwork have you done?
Have you ever talked with any anthropologists or archaeologists from Israel?
OK, here are a couple of pics. You may accept or not accept them :-)
For me, I do not say that the ancient Israelites always looked so or so. I just acknowledge the variation one can see in both art, in archaeological material and human remains.
Reality is not always black or white as in the minds of both some Afrocentrics, and some Eurocentrics.
"The lifelike faces, fashioned from clay by a Canadian forensic artist, are based on the skulls of four people whose remains were unearthed in Israel. They include a male, perhaps a hunter, who lived 6,000 years ago and was buried in a Judean Desert cave; a baby interred inside a vase underneath a Jordan Valley house in the same period; a woman thought to be a Philistine who lived on the coast near Ashkelon 3,000 years ago; and a Galilean male who lived around the time of Jesus."
"The skulls were reconstructed for the show by an Israeli forensic anthropologist, Israel Hershkovitz of Tel Aviv University, with the help of technicians using 3D imaging equipment. Victoria Lywood, the forensic artist, then produced clay renderings of what the four might have looked like when they were alive."
The reconstructed face of a woman believed to be a Philistine,
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
The Lachish series remains the earliest pictures of Israelites, and as seen by a conquering people.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
.
Here are the '3 Elders' of Lachish in a better img than the one I hand-scanned from Pritchard and put on the web back around 1999.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
Authenticity trumps nationalism and ethnocentricism.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
From ANE
>"The details that do exist in the reliefs could ... have been drawn wholly >from written campaign accounts and interviews with partcipants from both >sides. In this context two things should be remembered. First, many >inhabitants of captured cities were deported to Assyria, so it should not >have been difficult to Locate Lachishites to interview; Barnett observed >that men wearing the costume of the Lachishites were shown among the >laborers in the bull-hauling scenes of Court VI and in the royal bodyguard >in the Ishtar Temple procession. Second, Sennacherib's palace was being >built and decorated at the same time the first few campaigns were being >conducted; the relief designers could draw on recent memories, unclouded by >time, to insure the accuracy of their immages. Thus we might expect to find >greater accuracy in the early campaign reliefs of Sennacherib than in those >of Assyrian kings whose palaces date to the later part of their reign." >(Russell 1991:208f)
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Why ignore historians who lived during the time of Judaea and ascribe Egyptian and Ethiopian ancestry for Judaeans in general and even write that members of another race are adapting the cultural heritage nationalizing as Geriym Ssadaqiym (converting to Judaea-ism).
"... other men, who, although of a different race, have adopted the laws of the people."
Cassius Dio Roman History 37:17:1
Also in the Greek Scriptures Paul, the Judaean(?) founder of Christianity was mistaken for an Egyptian
Art not thou that Egyptian ...
Acts 21:38
This aligns with Greco-Latin thought
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
then there's the most popular Roman opinion that Judeans are an Ćthiopian subset.
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus -- The Histories Book V
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The ancient Canaanites were closely related to the Israelites. Even in Jews and Lebanese of today there is a fairly large amount of Canaanite genetic heritage.
As we have seen before the people in the ancient Levant could vary some in their looks, but most of them seem just to have resembled Middle Easterners and Levantines of today.
Back to pictures. Here are a couple of depictions from different times
A small Canaanite sculpture from the 14th-13th century BC, found in the Levant
Once again the nice 2800 years old sculpture head from Abel Beth Maacah, located just south of Israel's border with Lebanon, near the modern-day town of Metula.
Lets jump forward in time: This is a Roman denarius depicting Titus, c. 79. The reverse shows a Jewish captive kneeling in front of a trophy of arms
Figures from the 300s AD, from mosaics in a synagogue in northern Israel.
A dramatic image of Jonah from the same synagogue
Then we have a the well known image, based on educated guesses how a Jew could look like in Jesus time
Another modern image with a rather typical Middle Eastern face.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
\ Remove any sentences in posts calling somebody by a name they don't call themselves or I am am deleting the whole post for trolling, trying to instigate by coming up with your own nickname for people, will be removing such posts 11 pm EST US excluding old posts prior to new period moderation prior to 2021
5/29/21
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posts removed by me
warning seen but ignored, topic closed
and it's my thread, one that I started _________________________________________
Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics, a variety of points of view are allowed to post in this forum
but people who don't follow the rules of respect for each other will face consequences