posted
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.
Keftiu The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
posted
Sources agree that Garama was name of their capital city. Garamante was the name for the tribe.
Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes".
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Descendants of the Garamantes have mixed into the popualtion of modern North Africa and speak it's languages
They mgrated to the Niger Valley. Give us the date the Garamantes mixed with the North African population.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Originally posted by the lioness,: 500 BC - 700 AD. Germa known in ancient times as Garama, Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital
The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This theory is interesting
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan
The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible
Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger Tuareg territoryPosts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Originally posted by the lioness,: 500 BC - 700 AD. Germa known in ancient times as Garama, Zinchecra, was located not far from the later Garama, an earlier capital
The Garmantes have since mixed into the North African population
There is mo evidence of this happening. Plese give us the date this mixture took place, given the fact they migrated to the Niger Valley.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This theory is interesting
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan
The Garmantes lived in Fezzan approximatly 5th century BCE to the 5th century CE (possibly later) operating the Trans-Saharan trade routes successively between Carthage and the Roman Empire in North Africa and Sahelian states of west and central Africa. Inter-mixtures with all of these people is possible
Their descendants are thought to be berber speaking Tuareg whose territory includes Niger, Libya and other locations in North Africa and the Sahel. No surprise the Tuareg territory overlaps Garama and also extends to Niger Tuareg territory
You use the terms "possible" and "thought" for your interpretation, which imply conjecture.
This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
posted
^ The Tuareg do live in the Fessan! You need to go to South Libya. The Tuareg are a pastoralist people, stretching from East to West, North as well as South of the Sahara.
Sahara oasis.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ The Tuareg do live in the Fessan! You need to go to South Libya. The Tuareg are a pastoralist people, stretching from East to West, North as well as South of the Sahara.
. Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow.
Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact.
The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."
Roman Gladiators
The lack of continuity between populations corresponds to the introduction of modern Europeans into North Africa 3kya e.g., Peoples of the Sea, Vandals, Greco-Romans.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ The Tuareg do live in the Fessan! You need to go to South Libya. The Tuareg are a pastoralist people, stretching from East to West, North as well as South of the Sahara.
Sahara oasis.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
Clyde you say that the Turaeg originated in the East, Then you say they originated in Tafilalt of the Moroccan Sahara. That's contradictory, that's West of the Fezzan
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB]
Berbers
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^^^^ Clyde what about these Tuareg berbers from Niger?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ The Tuareg do live in the Fessan! You need to go to South Libya. The Tuareg are a pastoralist people, stretching from East to West, North as well as South of the Sahara.
Sahara oasis.
This correct, the Tuareg descent from the Beja, in the East.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ The Tuareg do live in the Fessan! You need to go to South Libya. The Tuareg are a pastoralist people, stretching from East to West, North as well as South of the Sahara.
Sahara oasis.
This correct, the Tuareg descent from the Beja, in the East.
This is false.
There is no relationship between Beja and Tuareg language and culture.
Present the evidence that Beja and Tuareg are related.
posted
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
posted
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
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