__________Kushan Empire (ca. 2nd century B.C.–3rd century A.D.)____________
_____________ __________Bodhisattva Maitreya Kushan period 2nd-3rd century CE from the ancient region of Gandhara Pakistan Schist
_________________ The Kushan Empire extended from the Aral Sea through areas that include present-day Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan into northern India as far east as Benares and as far south as Sanchi.
Under the rule of the Kushans, northwest India and adjoining regions participated both in seagoing trade and in commerce along the Silk Road to China. The name Kushan derives from the Chinese term Guishang, used in historical writings to describe one branch of the Yuezhi—a loose confederation of Indo-European people who had been living in northwestern China until they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu, in 176–160 B.C. The Yuezhi reached Bactria (northwest Afghanistan and Tajikistan) around 135 B.C. Kujula Kadphises united the disparate tribes in the first century B.C. Gradually wresting control of the area from the Scytho-Parthians, the Yuezhi moved south into the northwest Indian region traditionally known as Gandhara (now parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan) and established a capital near Kabul. They had learned to use a form of the Greek alphabet, and Kujula's son was the first Indian ruler to strike gold coins in imitation of the Roman aureus exchanged along the caravan routes. The rule of Kanishka, the third Kushan emperor who flourished from the late first to the early/mid-second century A.D., was administered from two capitals: Purushapura (now Peshawar) near the Khyber Pass, and Mathura in northern India. Under Kanishka's rule, at the height of the dynasty, Kushan controlled a large territory ranging from the Aral Sea through areas that include present-day Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan into northern India as far east as Benares and as far south as Sanchi. It was also a period of great wealth marked by extensive mercantile activities and a flourishing of urban life, Buddhist thought, and the visual arts.
The Gandhara region at the core of the Kushan empire was home to a multiethnic society tolerant of religious differences. Desirable for its strategic location, with direct access to the overland silk routes and links to the ports on the Arabian Sea, Gandhara had suffered many conquests and had been ruled by the Mauryans, Alexander the Great (327/26–325/24 B.C.), his Indo-Greek successors (third–second centuries B.C.), and a combination of Scythians and Parthians (second–first centuries B.C.). The melding of peoples produced an eclectic culture, vividly expressed in the visual arts produced during the Kushan period. Themes derived from Greek and Roman mythologies were common initially, while later, Buddhist imagery dominated: some of the first representations of the Buddha in human form date to the Kushan era, as do the earliest depictions of bodhisattvas. Votive panels, Kushan dynasty, ca. 3rd century A.D. Bactria (northern Afghanistan) Terracotta and gouache Votive panels, Kushan dynasty, ca. 3rd century A.D. Bactria (northern Afghanistan) Terracotta and gouache
The Gift of Anathapindada, Kushan period, 2nd–3rd century Pakistan, ancient region of Gandhara Schist with traces of gold foil
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
Quote: "The name Kushan derives from the Chinese term Guishang, used in historical writings to describe one branch of the Yuezhi—a loose confederation of Indo-European people who had been living in northwestern China until they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu, in 176–160 B.C.
Quote: "Kujula's son was the first Indian ruler to strike gold coins in imitation of the Roman aureus."
Damn lioness, all you are doing is proving what I always said - thanks!
The hyphenated word "Indo-European" joins the words India and Europe.
It was clearly said that they came from Central Asia, and went into India - which is true. They were neither Indians NOR Europeans. How could they be "Indo-Europeans"?
If you are attempting to prove that Albinos from Central Asia invaded and conquered parts of India and Europe, save your strength - isn't that what I've been saying all along?
As to Buddha, certainly you're not suggesting that he was an Albino - we know that he was a NATIVE Indian.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
BTW lioness, aren't you in violation of the "One-thread" rule? You just opened the same subject in the "Greco-Buddhist art: the first renditions of the Buddha" thread.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ask CT if such a rule is in effect,( keyword Zimmerman page 1)
Mike Central Asia has varying definitions as shown by the different colors of the map as shown by the different colors. All possible bordes of them do not include most of India except for a part of the most Northern region of India, India is basically South Asia. Your're always talking about albino Dravidians. Clyde teaches that Dravidians were Africans who settled in South India not In Central Asia with it's vearious 'stans. Maybe you need to open a new thread on this minus the"defective" albino = white people epithets called: "African Origins of the Dravidians and their Settlement in South India" (not Central Asia). Otherwise try to stay focused on the topic of this thread, basic information of the Kushans.
thanks lioness
The origins of Greco-Buddhist art are to be found in the Hellenistic Greco-Bactrian kingdom (250 BCE- 130 BCE), located in today’s Afghanistan, from which Hellenistic culture radiated into the Indian subcontinent with the establishment of the Indo-Greek kingdom (180 BCE-10 BCE). Under the Indo-Greeks and then the Kushans, the interaction of Greek and Buddhist culture flourished in the area of Gandhara, in today’s northern Pakistan, before spreading further into India, influencing the art of Mathura, and then the Hindu art of the Gupta empire, which was to extend to the rest of South-East Asia.
Kushans are an extension after the Indo-Greeks. people who believe that the Greeks were straight haired Ethiopian fetaured "blacks" as pictured above similar to Dravidians should have no problem with this and relax. People who believe that blacks can only have true negro restricted curly hair of some time can make their own thread on the topic. This thread is about Kushans and I'm not even discussing if they were black or not.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Quote: "The name Kushan derives from the Chinese term Guishang, used in historical writings to describe one branch of the Yuezhi—a loose confederation of Indo-European people who had been living in northwestern China until they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu, in 176–160 B.C.
Quote: "Kujula's son was the first Indian ruler to strike gold coins in imitation of the Roman aureus."
Damn lioness, all you are doing is proving what I always said - thanks!
The hyphenated word "Indo-European" joins the words India and Europe.
It was clearly said that they came from Central Asia, and went into India - which is true. They were neither Indians NOR Europeans. How could they be "Indo-Europeans"?
If you are attempting to prove that Albinos from Central Asia invaded and conquered parts of India and Europe, save your strength - isn't that what I've been saying all along?
As to Buddha, certainly you're not suggesting that he was an Albino - we know that he was a NATIVE Indian.
This thread is a waste of Time. She is trying to imply that the Kushan people were Indo-Europeans when in fact they were Blacks from China.
Kushana was a lingua franca, that is why it has elements from many of the languages formerly spoken in Central Asia.
.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde I never said if the Kushans were black or not, I just put up their art, some of the earliest Buddhist sculpture.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
^I don't really give a sh1t what race the Kushans were. The point is that they were neither Indians NOR Europeans, nor "Indo-Europeans".
Proving more Albino falsification.
So lioness, you're saying that Blacks were making statues of their God - Buddha, depicting him as an Albino?
Really?
Posted by DHDoxies (Member # 19701) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^I don't really give a sh1t what race the Kushans were. The point is that they were neither Indians NOR Europeans, nor "Indo-Europeans".
Proving more Albino falsification.
So lioness, you're saying that Blacks were making statues of their God - Buddha, depicting him as an Albino?
Really?
Mikey boy haven't you already been told that hateful racist epithets are no longer allowed. BTW, Answer my questions & provide unbiased proof or admit you were wrong Mikey boy. I'm not dropping it.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kushana
.
. Central Asia was called Kush by the ancient people. The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India. In pinyin Yueh chih is pronounced: Yuezhi
The Kushana and the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago, note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Many of the Yueh people were Dravidian speakers. The Yueh people were also called Yuehchih or Kuishuang (Kushana). In ancient times the Yueh chihs controlled Central Asia and much of China until the first century BC. In the Pali Chronicles, the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuehchih were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein, the li Qiang (Black Qiang) of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China. . . The Yuezhi allegedly arrived in India during the 2nd century BC. He makes it clear that the Yuezhi / Kushana as noted on their coins worshipped Siva as seen on the coins of Kanishka. This is why we have a coin of a Kushana king from Taxila, dated to AD 76 that declares that the king was maharaja rajatiraja devaputra Kushana "Great King, King of kings, Son of God, the Kushana".
The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuehchih, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state, before the Kushana reached the Oxus Valley around 150 BC . There is no reason the Kushana may not have been intimately familiar with the Kharosthi writing at this time because from 202BC onward Prakrit and Chinese documents were written in Kharosthi.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana- Yuezhi association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Some researchers believe that the Ars'i spoke Tocharian A, while Tocharian B was the "Kucha language" may have been spoken by the Kushana people. I don't know where you read that the speakers of Tocharian A were called Ars'i. These names: Ars’i and kucha, have nothing to do with ethnic groups, they refer to the cities where Tocharian text were found: Tocharian A documents were found around Qarashar and Turfan, thusly these text are also referred to as Turfanian or East Tocharian; Tocharian B documents were found near the town of Kucha, thusly they are sometimes called Kuchean or West Tocharian.
Linguist use the term Tochari to refer to these people, because they were given this title in Turkic manuscripts . As a result, the word Tochari has nothing to do with the Kushana people. The observable evidence make it clear that the terms used to label the Tocharian dialects are not ethnonyms, they are terms used to denote where the Tocharian records were found. The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The terms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi .
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani .The Kushana people took over Bactria much later. It is a mistake to believe that Ars'i and Kucha were ethnonyms is understandable given your lack of knowledge about Tocharian. And I will agree that there were a number of different languages spoken by people who wrote material in Tocharian. It is for this reason that I have maintained throughout my published works on Tocharian, that this was a trade language. See: Tocharian is a Dravidian trade language https://www.academia.edu/8491572/Is_Tocharian_a_Dravidian_Trade_Language
This Tocharian/Kushan language was used by the Central Asians as a lingua franca and trade language due to the numerous ethnic groups which formerly lived in central Asia". Kharosthi was long used to write in Central Asia. It was even used by the Greeks. The use of the Kharosthi writing system in Central Asia and India, would place this writing contemporaneous with the tradition, recorded by the Classical writers of Indians settling among the Kushana.
There were many people who probably used Tocharian for purposes of communication including the Kushana and the "Ars'i/Asii". They probably used Tocharian as a lingua franca. You make it clear in your last post that numerous languages were spoken in Central Asia when the Tocharian was written in Kharosthi. Most researchers believe that a majority of the people who lived in this area were bilingual and spoke Bactrian ,Indian languages among other languages. I agree with this theory, and believe that the Kushana Kings may have spoken a Dravidian language. Due to the possibility that the Kushana spoke a Dravidian language which is the substratum language of Tocharian; and the presence of a number of different terms in Tocharian from many languages spoken in the area-led me to the conclusion that Tocharian was a trade language. The Kushana always referred to themselves as the Kushana/Gushana. The name Kushana for this group is recorded in the Manikiala Stone inscription (56BC?), the Panjtar Stone inscription of 122 AD and the Taxila Silver Scroll.
The Greeks called them Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano. In the Chinese sources they were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang= Kushana, and Yueh chih .
As you can see the term Kushana had been used to refer to these people long before Kujula Kadphises used the term as a personal name. This was over a hundred years after the Kushana had become rulers of Bactria. It would appear from the evidence that the nation of the Kushana was called Kusha.
In 176 B.C., the Huns fell upon the in western Gansu,defeated their army and murdered their King. This battle led to the Kushana migration into Nanshan region, and thence to Bactria and North India. (Bagchi 1955, p.4)
The Kushana first occupied Transoxiana about 160 B.C. and established themselves in the Oxus Valley (Chi 1955, p.8) They later drove the Haumavorka Indo-European Saka people, from Bactria and founded the Kushana dynasty which lasted until the 3rd century A.D.
It was Kujuula Kadphises who united the Kushana people and made them into a single nation. Kadphises conquered India as far as the Indus. His capital was Purushapura near Peshwar, in Pakistan. Later Wiima Kadphises extended Kushana rule into the Punjab.
The Kushana conquered the Sakas and Parthians and took control of an empire stretching from the Oxus river in Afghanistan, to the Ganges plains of India.. This unite under one authority the former dominions of the Indo-Greeks and the Sunga dynasts.
The greatest king of the Kushana was Kaniska. Kaniska came to power between A.D. 78-144. (Thapar 1972, p.92)
Kaniska ruled an empire extending from Central Asia, to Varansi in the Ganges Valley. He supported the arts and repaired many Kushana monuments and cities.
Kaniska had two capitals. The capital in Central Asia was Bergraam or Kupura in Afghanistan, while in India the capital was established at Muthura.
The Kushana were not Vedic worshippers. As among the Egyptians and Nubians, the Kushana raised past kings to the status of "gods", and they dedicated temples to them.
The Kushana were great patrons of the Buddhists. They supported the Mahavana (Great Vehicle) school of Buddhism. Under the Kushana the Buddha, was depicted in the form of the Muthuras school. These Muthura school Buddhas had strong negroid features.
The Kushana king was called the raja or Maharajatiraja "king of Kings".
Another famous Kushana king, Kujula imitating the Roman denares (coins) was the first Asians to circulate coins in central Asia. It was Kaniska, who first put Buddha on Indian coins.
The Kushana made fine sculptures and engraved beautiful carved sheets of ivory. Their plaques are some of the finest art pieces in India.
. .
. The Kushana were at this time in control of the Silk Road, which took Chinese goods to the West. It was also under the Kushana that Buddhism entered China. The Kushana ruled India for almost 200 years.
.
Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Kushana
.
. Central Asia was called Kush by the ancient people. The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India. In pinyin Yueh chih is pronounced: Yuezhi
The Kushana and the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago, note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Many of the Yueh people were Dravidian speakers. The Yueh people were also called Yuehchih or Kuishuang (Kushana). In ancient times the Yueh chihs controlled Central Asia and much of China until the first century BC. In the Pali Chronicles, the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuehchih were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein, the li Qiang (Black Qiang) of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China. .
. The Yuezhi allegedly arrived in India during the 2nd century BC. He makes it clear that the Yuezhi / Kushana as noted on their coins worshipped Siva as seen on the coins of Kanishka. This is why we have a coin of a Kushana king from Taxila, dated to AD 76 that declares that the king was maharaja rajatiraja devaputra Kushana "Great King, King of kings, Son of God, the Kushana".
The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuehchih, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state, before the Kushana reached the Oxus Valley around 150 BC . There is no reason the Kushana may not have been intimately familiar with the Kharosthi writing at this time because from 202BC onward Prakrit and Chinese documents were written in Kharosthi.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana- Yuezhi association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Some researchers believe that the Ars'i spoke Tocharian A, while Tocharian B was the "Kucha language" may have been spoken by the Kushana people. I don't know where you read that the speakers of Tocharian A were called Ars'i. These names: Ars’i and kucha, have nothing to do with ethnic groups, they refer to the cities where Tocharian text were found: Tocharian A documents were found around Qarashar and Turfan, thusly these text are also referred to as Turfanian or East Tocharian; Tocharian B documents were found near the town of Kucha, thusly they are sometimes called Kuchean or West Tocharian.
Linguist use the term Tochari to refer to these people, because they were given this title in Turkic manuscripts . As a result, the word Tochari has nothing to do with the Kushana people. The observable evidence make it clear that the terms used to label the Tocharian dialects are not ethnonyms, they are terms used to denote where the Tocharian records were found. The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The terms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi .
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani .The Kushana people took over Bactria much later. It is a mistake to believe that Ars'i and Kucha were ethnonyms is understandable given your lack of knowledge about Tocharian. And I will agree that there were a number of different languages spoken by people who wrote material in Tocharian. It is for this reason that I have maintained throughout my published works on Tocharian, that this was a trade language. See: Tocharian is a Dravidian trade language https://www.academia.edu/8491572/Is_Tocharian_a_Dravidian_Trade_Language
This Tocharian/Kushan language was used by the Central Asians as a lingua franca and trade language due to the numerous ethnic groups which formerly lived in central Asia". Kharosthi was long used to write in Central Asia. It was even used by the Greeks. The use of the Kharosthi writing system in Central Asia and India, would place this writing contemporaneous with the tradition, recorded by the Classical writers of Indians settling among the Kushana.
There were many people who probably used Tocharian for purposes of communication including the Kushana and the "Ars'i/Asii". They probably used Tocharian as a lingua franca. You make it clear in your last post that numerous languages were spoken in Central Asia when the Tocharian was written in Kharosthi. Most researchers believe that a majority of the people who lived in this area were bilingual and spoke Bactrian ,Indian languages among other languages. I agree with this theory, and believe that the Kushana Kings may have spoken a Dravidian language. Due to the possibility that the Kushana spoke a Dravidian language which is the substratum language of Tocharian; and the presence of a number of different terms in Tocharian from many languages spoken in the area-led me to the conclusion that Tocharian was a trade language. The Kushana always referred to themselves as the Kushana/Gushana. The name Kushana for this group is recorded in the Manikiala Stone inscription (56BC?), the Panjtar Stone inscription of 122 AD and the Taxila Silver Scroll.
The Greeks called them Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano. In the Chinese sources they were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang= Kushana, and Yueh chih .
As you can see the term Kushana had been used to refer to these people long before Kujula Kadphises used the term as a personal name. This was over a hundred years after the Kushana had become rulers of Bactria. It would appear from the evidence that the nation of the Kushana was called Kusha.
In 176 B.C., the Huns fell upon the in western Gansu,defeated their army and murdered their King. This battle led to the Kushana migration into Nanshan region, and thence to Bactria and North India. (Bagchi 1955, p.4)
The Kushana first occupied Transoxiana about 160 B.C. and established themselves in the Oxus Valley (Chi 1955, p.8) They later drove the Haumavorka Indo-European Saka people, from Bactria and founded the Kushana dynasty which lasted until the 3rd century A.D.
It was Kujuula Kadphises who united the Kushana people and made them into a single nation. Kadphises conquered India as far as the Indus. His capital was Purushapura near Peshwar, in Pakistan. Later Wiima Kadphises extended Kushana rule into the Punjab.
The Kushana conquered the Sakas and Parthians and took control of an empire stretching from the Oxus river in Afghanistan, to the Ganges plains of India.. This unite under one authority the former dominions of the Indo-Greeks and the Sunga dynasts.
The greatest king of the Kushana was Kaniska. Kaniska came to power between A.D. 78-144. (Thapar 1972, p.92)
Kaniska ruled an empire extending from Central Asia, to Varansi in the Ganges Valley. He supported the arts and repaired many Kushana monuments and cities.
Kaniska had two capitals. The capital in Central Asia was Bergraam or Kupura in Afghanistan, while in India the capital was established at Muthura.
The Kushana were not Vedic worshippers. As among the Egyptians and Nubians, the Kushana raised past kings to the status of "gods", and they dedicated temples to them.
The Kushana were great patrons of the Buddhists. They supported the Mahavana (Great Vehicle) school of Buddhism. Under the Kushana the Buddha, was depicted in the form of the Muthuras school. These Muthura school Buddhas had strong negroid features.
The Kushana king was called the raja or Maharajatiraja "king of Kings".
Another famous Kushana king, Kujula imitating the Roman denares (coins) was the first Asians to circulate coins in central Asia. It was Kaniska, who first put Buddha on Indian coins.
The Kushana made fine sculptures and engraved beautiful carved sheets of ivory. Their plaques are some of the finest art pieces in India.
.
. The Kushana were at this time in control of the Silk Road, which took Chinese goods to the West. It was also under the Kushana that Buddhism entered China. The Kushana ruled India for almost 200 years.
.
Clyde stop denying, nearly most to every Chinese sources described the Yuezhi and Tocharians as European White looking. Infact even their clothing apparel and design is exactly the same as those found in Europe. You did not disprove or refute my links or sources at all.
If the Kushans were the Yuezhi, which they most likely were given that the Chinese describe them as such, then they were "white people". The Chinese describe the Yuezhi as having reddish white skin, red hair etc etc, everything that describes Whites but not in blacks.
quote: Anyway, there’s a straightforward explanation for the “Chinese Romans”: they’re out of the same population mix, roughly, as the Uyghurs. Before the year 1000 AD much of what is today Xinjiang was dominated by peoples with a European physical appearance. Today we call them Tocharians, and they spoke a range of extinct Indo-European dialects. It seems likely that there was also an Iranian element. The archaeology is rather patchy. Though there were city-based Indo-Europeans, it is clear that some of them were nomadic, and were among the amorphous tribes that the ancient Chinese referred to as the “Rong and Di.” The Yuezhi and Wusun were two mobile groups who left China in the historical period and are recorded in the traditional annals.
Meanwhile, between 500 AD and 1000 AD the Indo-European substrate of the Tarim basin was absorbed by Turkic groups coming from Mongolia. They imposed their language on the older residents, but genetically assimilated them. The modern Uyghurs are a clear hybrid population. In the papers published on the Uyghurs they shake out as about a 50/50 West/East Eurasian mix. But the DODECAD ANCESTRY PROJECT has them in the sample, and here’s how they break down by a finer grain:
quote: What we do have is this: Chinese records of a "white people with long hair" living just to the west; coins bearing pictures of kings with long hair and high-bridged noses; mummified remains of European-looking people in the deserts of western China; Greek records of various Indo-European speaking nomads who dominated Central Asia; and documents written in a language that European scholars once identified as "Tocharian."...
DNA studies on the Tocharian mummies show that they had ancestors all over Central Asia and into Eastern Europe - which may not be too surprising, given their nomadic and long-distance trading lifestyle.
A Chinese traveler who lived among the Yuezhi for a year recorded that their language was mutually intelligible with those of other Indo-European peoples to the west. He noted their "deep-set eyes and profuse beards and whiskers," as well as their love of trade and bargaining. With perhaps a tone of bemusement, he wrote that, "Women are held in great respect, and the men make decisions on the advice of their women." Fortunately for us, China's ancient historian Sima Qian reported this traveler's observations in his history.
Ancient Chinese records show that the relationship between the nomadic Yuezhi and the settled Chinese was mutually beneficial.
A large group of Yuezhi survivors fled north and west from the Tarim Basin, where around the year 165 BCE they ran into another great nomadic people called the Scythians. They managed to defeat the Scythians, and drive them from the area just north of the Tianshan Mountains - the Scythians were pushed south into Kashmir. (Note: Some scholars believe that the Yuezhi were originally a branch of the Scythians. If so, the intervening centuries had cut them off from their cousins, and the Yuezhi had no compunction about ousting the Scythians from their territory.)
They would hold this land for just a few decades, however. In 132 BCE, allies of the Xiongnu called the Wusun attacked the Yuezhi and drove them away once more. This time, they ended up just to the north of the Oxus River, in what is now Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
At this point, Greek records join in with their own observations. This is where some of the confusion about the Yuezhi's name comes in: the classical Greek scholar Strabo identifies them as the Tokhari (from which much later European scholars derived "Tocharian"), and he calls them one of the tribes of Scythians.
Chinese records indicate that at this point, the Yuezhi culture evolved into the Kushan culture. By the year 30 CE, the descendants of the Yuezhi had established the Kushan Empire (30 - 375 CE). At its height under Kanishka the Great, the Kushan Empire controlled what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, parts of Central Asia, and - perhaps ironically - the Tarim Basin from which their ancestors had been ousted centuries earlier.
quote: Mummified remains show that the inhabitants (or at least many of them) were Caucasian in Physical type, with sandy or red hair, pale skin, and a tall build.
THESE PEOPLE WERE CLEARLY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE, ALL THE CHINESE RECORDS AND GREEK RECORDS SEEM TO SAY SO. THE GREEKS DESCRIBED THE SCYTHIANS AS HAVING RED HAIRED AND BEING GERMANIC LOOKING, BUT THEY CONFUSED THE YUEZHI AS BEING ONE OF THEM BECAUSE THEY LOOKED LIKE SCYTHIANS! THEREFORE THE YEUZHI AND THE TOCHARIANS WERE MOST LIKELY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE!
Mike is right when he assumes that the Yuezhi was just an off-shoot of many Dravidian Albino tribes who had settled Central Asia/Eurasia as described by their RED/LIGHT HAIR!
THIS IS HOW THE YEUZHI IN ALL LIKELIHOOD LOOKED LIKE!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Kushana
.
. Central Asia was called Kush by the ancient people. The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India. In pinyin Yueh chih is pronounced: Yuezhi
The Kushana and the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago, note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Many of the Yueh people were Dravidian speakers. The Yueh people were also called Yuehchih or Kuishuang (Kushana). In ancient times the Yueh chihs controlled Central Asia and much of China until the first century BC. In the Pali Chronicles, the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuehchih were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein, the li Qiang (Black Qiang) of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China. .
. The Yuezhi allegedly arrived in India during the 2nd century BC. He makes it clear that the Yuezhi / Kushana as noted on their coins worshipped Siva as seen on the coins of Kanishka. This is why we have a coin of a Kushana king from Taxila, dated to AD 76 that declares that the king was maharaja rajatiraja devaputra Kushana "Great King, King of kings, Son of God, the Kushana".
The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuehchih, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state, before the Kushana reached the Oxus Valley around 150 BC . There is no reason the Kushana may not have been intimately familiar with the Kharosthi writing at this time because from 202BC onward Prakrit and Chinese documents were written in Kharosthi.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana- Yuezhi association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Some researchers believe that the Ars'i spoke Tocharian A, while Tocharian B was the "Kucha language" may have been spoken by the Kushana people. I don't know where you read that the speakers of Tocharian A were called Ars'i. These names: Ars’i and kucha, have nothing to do with ethnic groups, they refer to the cities where Tocharian text were found: Tocharian A documents were found around Qarashar and Turfan, thusly these text are also referred to as Turfanian or East Tocharian; Tocharian B documents were found near the town of Kucha, thusly they are sometimes called Kuchean or West Tocharian.
Linguist use the term Tochari to refer to these people, because they were given this title in Turkic manuscripts . As a result, the word Tochari has nothing to do with the Kushana people. The observable evidence make it clear that the terms used to label the Tocharian dialects are not ethnonyms, they are terms used to denote where the Tocharian records were found. The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The terms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi .
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani .The Kushana people took over Bactria much later. It is a mistake to believe that Ars'i and Kucha were ethnonyms is understandable given your lack of knowledge about Tocharian. And I will agree that there were a number of different languages spoken by people who wrote material in Tocharian. It is for this reason that I have maintained throughout my published works on Tocharian, that this was a trade language. See: Tocharian is a Dravidian trade language https://www.academia.edu/8491572/Is_Tocharian_a_Dravidian_Trade_Language
This Tocharian/Kushan language was used by the Central Asians as a lingua franca and trade language due to the numerous ethnic groups which formerly lived in central Asia". Kharosthi was long used to write in Central Asia. It was even used by the Greeks. The use of the Kharosthi writing system in Central Asia and India, would place this writing contemporaneous with the tradition, recorded by the Classical writers of Indians settling among the Kushana.
There were many people who probably used Tocharian for purposes of communication including the Kushana and the "Ars'i/Asii". They probably used Tocharian as a lingua franca. You make it clear in your last post that numerous languages were spoken in Central Asia when the Tocharian was written in Kharosthi. Most researchers believe that a majority of the people who lived in this area were bilingual and spoke Bactrian ,Indian languages among other languages. I agree with this theory, and believe that the Kushana Kings may have spoken a Dravidian language. Due to the possibility that the Kushana spoke a Dravidian language which is the substratum language of Tocharian; and the presence of a number of different terms in Tocharian from many languages spoken in the area-led me to the conclusion that Tocharian was a trade language. The Kushana always referred to themselves as the Kushana/Gushana. The name Kushana for this group is recorded in the Manikiala Stone inscription (56BC?), the Panjtar Stone inscription of 122 AD and the Taxila Silver Scroll.
The Greeks called them Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano. In the Chinese sources they were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang= Kushana, and Yueh chih .
As you can see the term Kushana had been used to refer to these people long before Kujula Kadphises used the term as a personal name. This was over a hundred years after the Kushana had become rulers of Bactria. It would appear from the evidence that the nation of the Kushana was called Kusha.
In 176 B.C., the Huns fell upon the in western Gansu,defeated their army and murdered their King. This battle led to the Kushana migration into Nanshan region, and thence to Bactria and North India. (Bagchi 1955, p.4)
The Kushana first occupied Transoxiana about 160 B.C. and established themselves in the Oxus Valley (Chi 1955, p.8) They later drove the Haumavorka Indo-European Saka people, from Bactria and founded the Kushana dynasty which lasted until the 3rd century A.D.
It was Kujuula Kadphises who united the Kushana people and made them into a single nation. Kadphises conquered India as far as the Indus. His capital was Purushapura near Peshwar, in Pakistan. Later Wiima Kadphises extended Kushana rule into the Punjab.
The Kushana conquered the Sakas and Parthians and took control of an empire stretching from the Oxus river in Afghanistan, to the Ganges plains of India.. This unite under one authority the former dominions of the Indo-Greeks and the Sunga dynasts.
The greatest king of the Kushana was Kaniska. Kaniska came to power between A.D. 78-144. (Thapar 1972, p.92)
Kaniska ruled an empire extending from Central Asia, to Varansi in the Ganges Valley. He supported the arts and repaired many Kushana monuments and cities.
Kaniska had two capitals. The capital in Central Asia was Bergraam or Kupura in Afghanistan, while in India the capital was established at Muthura.
The Kushana were not Vedic worshippers. As among the Egyptians and Nubians, the Kushana raised past kings to the status of "gods", and they dedicated temples to them.
The Kushana were great patrons of the Buddhists. They supported the Mahavana (Great Vehicle) school of Buddhism. Under the Kushana the Buddha, was depicted in the form of the Muthuras school. These Muthura school Buddhas had strong negroid features.
The Kushana king was called the raja or Maharajatiraja "king of Kings".
Another famous Kushana king, Kujula imitating the Roman denares (coins) was the first Asians to circulate coins in central Asia. It was Kaniska, who first put Buddha on Indian coins.
The Kushana made fine sculptures and engraved beautiful carved sheets of ivory. Their plaques are some of the finest art pieces in India.
.
. The Kushana were at this time in control of the Silk Road, which took Chinese goods to the West. It was also under the Kushana that Buddhism entered China. The Kushana ruled India for almost 200 years.
.
Clyde stop denying, nearly most to every Chinese sources described the Yuezhi and Tocharians as European White looking. Infact even their clothing apparel and design is exactly the same as those found in Europe. You did not disprove or refute my links or sources at all.
If the Kushans were the Yuezhi, which they most likely were given that the Chinese describe them as such, then they were "white people". The Chinese describe the Yuezhi as having reddish white skin, red hair etc etc, everything that describes Whites but not in blacks.
quote: Anyway, there’s a straightforward explanation for the “Chinese Romans”: they’re out of the same population mix, roughly, as the Uyghurs. Before the year 1000 AD much of what is today Xinjiang was dominated by peoples with a European physical appearance. Today we call them Tocharians, and they spoke a range of extinct Indo-European dialects. It seems likely that there was also an Iranian element. The archaeology is rather patchy. Though there were city-based Indo-Europeans, it is clear that some of them were nomadic, and were among the amorphous tribes that the ancient Chinese referred to as the “Rong and Di.” The Yuezhi and Wusun were two mobile groups who left China in the historical period and are recorded in the traditional annals.
Meanwhile, between 500 AD and 1000 AD the Indo-European substrate of the Tarim basin was absorbed by Turkic groups coming from Mongolia. They imposed their language on the older residents, but genetically assimilated them. The modern Uyghurs are a clear hybrid population. In the papers published on the Uyghurs they shake out as about a 50/50 West/East Eurasian mix. But the DODECAD ANCESTRY PROJECT has them in the sample, and here’s how they break down by a finer grain:
quote: What we do have is this: Chinese records of a "white people with long hair" living just to the west; coins bearing pictures of kings with long hair and high-bridged noses; mummified remains of European-looking people in the deserts of western China; Greek records of various Indo-European speaking nomads who dominated Central Asia; and documents written in a language that European scholars once identified as "Tocharian."...
DNA studies on the Tocharian mummies show that they had ancestors all over Central Asia and into Eastern Europe - which may not be too surprising, given their nomadic and long-distance trading lifestyle.
A Chinese traveler who lived among the Yuezhi for a year recorded that their language was mutually intelligible with those of other Indo-European peoples to the west. He noted their "deep-set eyes and profuse beards and whiskers," as well as their love of trade and bargaining. With perhaps a tone of bemusement, he wrote that, "Women are held in great respect, and the men make decisions on the advice of their women." Fortunately for us, China's ancient historian Sima Qian reported this traveler's observations in his history.
Ancient Chinese records show that the relationship between the nomadic Yuezhi and the settled Chinese was mutually beneficial.
A large group of Yuezhi survivors fled north and west from the Tarim Basin, where around the year 165 BCE they ran into another great nomadic people called the Scythians. They managed to defeat the Scythians, and drive them from the area just north of the Tianshan Mountains - the Scythians were pushed south into Kashmir. (Note: Some scholars believe that the Yuezhi were originally a branch of the Scythians. If so, the intervening centuries had cut them off from their cousins, and the Yuezhi had no compunction about ousting the Scythians from their territory.)
They would hold this land for just a few decades, however. In 132 BCE, allies of the Xiongnu called the Wusun attacked the Yuezhi and drove them away once more. This time, they ended up just to the north of the Oxus River, in what is now Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
At this point, Greek records join in with their own observations. This is where some of the confusion about the Yuezhi's name comes in: the classical Greek scholar Strabo identifies them as the Tokhari (from which much later European scholars derived "Tocharian"), and he calls them one of the tribes of Scythians.
Chinese records indicate that at this point, the Yuezhi culture evolved into the Kushan culture. By the year 30 CE, the descendants of the Yuezhi had established the Kushan Empire (30 - 375 CE). At its height under Kanishka the Great, the Kushan Empire controlled what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, parts of Central Asia, and - perhaps ironically - the Tarim Basin from which their ancestors had been ousted centuries earlier.
quote: Mummified remains show that the inhabitants (or at least many of them) were Caucasian in Physical type, with sandy or red hair, pale skin, and a tall build.
THESE PEOPLE WERE CLEARLY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE, ALL THE CHINESE RECORDS AND GREEK RECORDS SEEM TO SAY SO. THE GREEKS DESCRIBED THE SCYTHIANS AS HAVING RED HAIRED AND BEING GERMANIC LOOKING, BUT THEY CONFUSED THE YUEZHI AS BEING ONE OF THEM BECAUSE THEY LOOKED LIKE SCYTHIANS! THEREFORE THE YEUZHI AND THE TOCHARIANS WERE MOST LIKELY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE!
Mike is right when he assumes that the Yuezhi was just an off-shoot of many Dravidian Albino tribes who had settled Central Asia/Eurasia as described by their RED/LIGHT HAIR!
THIS IS HOW THE YEUZHI IN ALL LIKELIHOOD LOOKED LIKE!
You're ignorant. I don't waste my time with ignorant people when they prove to be stupid.
As I said before I will not debate this issue with you, you can't dispute anything I wrote because you can't read Chinese, Kushan, French and or Tamil.Your propositions are based on hope--not evidence.
.
Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Kushana
.
. Central Asia was called Kush by the ancient people. The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers Kush.Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of Kerma: Kusan.
First, I would like to make it clear that the probable language of the Kushana was Tamil. According to Dravidian literature, the Kushana were called Kosars=Yakshas=Yueh chih/ Kushana. This literature maintains that when they entered India they either already spoke Tamil, or adopted the language upon settlement in India. In pinyin Yueh chih is pronounced: Yuezhi
The Kushana and the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana-Yueh chih association are also discussed in Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago, note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih/ Yuezhi were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Many of the Yueh people were Dravidian speakers. The Yueh people were also called Yuehchih or Kuishuang (Kushana). In ancient times the Yueh chihs controlled Central Asia and much of China until the first century BC. In the Pali Chronicles, the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuehchih were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein, the li Qiang (Black Qiang) of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China. .
. The Yuezhi allegedly arrived in India during the 2nd century BC. He makes it clear that the Yuezhi / Kushana as noted on their coins worshipped Siva as seen on the coins of Kanishka. This is why we have a coin of a Kushana king from Taxila, dated to AD 76 that declares that the king was maharaja rajatiraja devaputra Kushana "Great King, King of kings, Son of God, the Kushana".
The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuehchih, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state, before the Kushana reached the Oxus Valley around 150 BC . There is no reason the Kushana may not have been intimately familiar with the Kharosthi writing at this time because from 202BC onward Prakrit and Chinese documents were written in Kharosthi.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi were one and the same. In addition to North Indian documents the Kushana- Yuezhi association are also discussed in Dravidian literature.V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Yueh chih were called Yakshas, Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
Some researchers believe that the Ars'i spoke Tocharian A, while Tocharian B was the "Kucha language" may have been spoken by the Kushana people. I don't know where you read that the speakers of Tocharian A were called Ars'i. These names: Ars’i and kucha, have nothing to do with ethnic groups, they refer to the cities where Tocharian text were found: Tocharian A documents were found around Qarashar and Turfan, thusly these text are also referred to as Turfanian or East Tocharian; Tocharian B documents were found near the town of Kucha, thusly they are sometimes called Kuchean or West Tocharian.
Linguist use the term Tochari to refer to these people, because they were given this title in Turkic manuscripts . As a result, the word Tochari has nothing to do with the Kushana people. The observable evidence make it clear that the terms used to label the Tocharian dialects are not ethnonyms, they are terms used to denote where the Tocharian records were found. The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The terms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi .
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani .The Kushana people took over Bactria much later. It is a mistake to believe that Ars'i and Kucha were ethnonyms is understandable given your lack of knowledge about Tocharian. And I will agree that there were a number of different languages spoken by people who wrote material in Tocharian. It is for this reason that I have maintained throughout my published works on Tocharian, that this was a trade language. See: Tocharian is a Dravidian trade language https://www.academia.edu/8491572/Is_Tocharian_a_Dravidian_Trade_Language
This Tocharian/Kushan language was used by the Central Asians as a lingua franca and trade language due to the numerous ethnic groups which formerly lived in central Asia". Kharosthi was long used to write in Central Asia. It was even used by the Greeks. The use of the Kharosthi writing system in Central Asia and India, would place this writing contemporaneous with the tradition, recorded by the Classical writers of Indians settling among the Kushana.
There were many people who probably used Tocharian for purposes of communication including the Kushana and the "Ars'i/Asii". They probably used Tocharian as a lingua franca. You make it clear in your last post that numerous languages were spoken in Central Asia when the Tocharian was written in Kharosthi. Most researchers believe that a majority of the people who lived in this area were bilingual and spoke Bactrian ,Indian languages among other languages. I agree with this theory, and believe that the Kushana Kings may have spoken a Dravidian language. Due to the possibility that the Kushana spoke a Dravidian language which is the substratum language of Tocharian; and the presence of a number of different terms in Tocharian from many languages spoken in the area-led me to the conclusion that Tocharian was a trade language. The Kushana always referred to themselves as the Kushana/Gushana. The name Kushana for this group is recorded in the Manikiala Stone inscription (56BC?), the Panjtar Stone inscription of 122 AD and the Taxila Silver Scroll.
The Greeks called them Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano. In the Chinese sources they were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang= Kushana, and Yueh chih .
As you can see the term Kushana had been used to refer to these people long before Kujula Kadphises used the term as a personal name. This was over a hundred years after the Kushana had become rulers of Bactria. It would appear from the evidence that the nation of the Kushana was called Kusha.
In 176 B.C., the Huns fell upon the in western Gansu,defeated their army and murdered their King. This battle led to the Kushana migration into Nanshan region, and thence to Bactria and North India. (Bagchi 1955, p.4)
The Kushana first occupied Transoxiana about 160 B.C. and established themselves in the Oxus Valley (Chi 1955, p.8) They later drove the Haumavorka Indo-European Saka people, from Bactria and founded the Kushana dynasty which lasted until the 3rd century A.D.
It was Kujuula Kadphises who united the Kushana people and made them into a single nation. Kadphises conquered India as far as the Indus. His capital was Purushapura near Peshwar, in Pakistan. Later Wiima Kadphises extended Kushana rule into the Punjab.
The Kushana conquered the Sakas and Parthians and took control of an empire stretching from the Oxus river in Afghanistan, to the Ganges plains of India.. This unite under one authority the former dominions of the Indo-Greeks and the Sunga dynasts.
The greatest king of the Kushana was Kaniska. Kaniska came to power between A.D. 78-144. (Thapar 1972, p.92)
Kaniska ruled an empire extending from Central Asia, to Varansi in the Ganges Valley. He supported the arts and repaired many Kushana monuments and cities.
Kaniska had two capitals. The capital in Central Asia was Bergraam or Kupura in Afghanistan, while in India the capital was established at Muthura.
The Kushana were not Vedic worshippers. As among the Egyptians and Nubians, the Kushana raised past kings to the status of "gods", and they dedicated temples to them.
The Kushana were great patrons of the Buddhists. They supported the Mahavana (Great Vehicle) school of Buddhism. Under the Kushana the Buddha, was depicted in the form of the Muthuras school. These Muthura school Buddhas had strong negroid features.
The Kushana king was called the raja or Maharajatiraja "king of Kings".
Another famous Kushana king, Kujula imitating the Roman denares (coins) was the first Asians to circulate coins in central Asia. It was Kaniska, who first put Buddha on Indian coins.
The Kushana made fine sculptures and engraved beautiful carved sheets of ivory. Their plaques are some of the finest art pieces in India.
.
. The Kushana were at this time in control of the Silk Road, which took Chinese goods to the West. It was also under the Kushana that Buddhism entered China. The Kushana ruled India for almost 200 years.
.
Clyde stop denying, nearly most to every Chinese sources described the Yuezhi and Tocharians as European White looking. Infact even their clothing apparel and design is exactly the same as those found in Europe. You did not disprove or refute my links or sources at all.
If the Kushans were the Yuezhi, which they most likely were given that the Chinese describe them as such, then they were "white people". The Chinese describe the Yuezhi as having reddish white skin, red hair etc etc, everything that describes Whites but not in blacks.
quote: Anyway, there’s a straightforward explanation for the “Chinese Romans”: they’re out of the same population mix, roughly, as the Uyghurs. Before the year 1000 AD much of what is today Xinjiang was dominated by peoples with a European physical appearance. Today we call them Tocharians, and they spoke a range of extinct Indo-European dialects. It seems likely that there was also an Iranian element. The archaeology is rather patchy. Though there were city-based Indo-Europeans, it is clear that some of them were nomadic, and were among the amorphous tribes that the ancient Chinese referred to as the “Rong and Di.” The Yuezhi and Wusun were two mobile groups who left China in the historical period and are recorded in the traditional annals.
Meanwhile, between 500 AD and 1000 AD the Indo-European substrate of the Tarim basin was absorbed by Turkic groups coming from Mongolia. They imposed their language on the older residents, but genetically assimilated them. The modern Uyghurs are a clear hybrid population. In the papers published on the Uyghurs they shake out as about a 50/50 West/East Eurasian mix. But the DODECAD ANCESTRY PROJECT has them in the sample, and here’s how they break down by a finer grain:
quote: What we do have is this: Chinese records of a "white people with long hair" living just to the west; coins bearing pictures of kings with long hair and high-bridged noses; mummified remains of European-looking people in the deserts of western China; Greek records of various Indo-European speaking nomads who dominated Central Asia; and documents written in a language that European scholars once identified as "Tocharian."...
DNA studies on the Tocharian mummies show that they had ancestors all over Central Asia and into Eastern Europe - which may not be too surprising, given their nomadic and long-distance trading lifestyle.
A Chinese traveler who lived among the Yuezhi for a year recorded that their language was mutually intelligible with those of other Indo-European peoples to the west. He noted their "deep-set eyes and profuse beards and whiskers," as well as their love of trade and bargaining. With perhaps a tone of bemusement, he wrote that, "Women are held in great respect, and the men make decisions on the advice of their women." Fortunately for us, China's ancient historian Sima Qian reported this traveler's observations in his history.
Ancient Chinese records show that the relationship between the nomadic Yuezhi and the settled Chinese was mutually beneficial.
A large group of Yuezhi survivors fled north and west from the Tarim Basin, where around the year 165 BCE they ran into another great nomadic people called the Scythians. They managed to defeat the Scythians, and drive them from the area just north of the Tianshan Mountains - the Scythians were pushed south into Kashmir. (Note: Some scholars believe that the Yuezhi were originally a branch of the Scythians. If so, the intervening centuries had cut them off from their cousins, and the Yuezhi had no compunction about ousting the Scythians from their territory.)
They would hold this land for just a few decades, however. In 132 BCE, allies of the Xiongnu called the Wusun attacked the Yuezhi and drove them away once more. This time, they ended up just to the north of the Oxus River, in what is now Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
At this point, Greek records join in with their own observations. This is where some of the confusion about the Yuezhi's name comes in: the classical Greek scholar Strabo identifies them as the Tokhari (from which much later European scholars derived "Tocharian"), and he calls them one of the tribes of Scythians.
Chinese records indicate that at this point, the Yuezhi culture evolved into the Kushan culture. By the year 30 CE, the descendants of the Yuezhi had established the Kushan Empire (30 - 375 CE). At its height under Kanishka the Great, the Kushan Empire controlled what is now Afghanistan, Pakistan, parts of Central Asia, and - perhaps ironically - the Tarim Basin from which their ancestors had been ousted centuries earlier.
quote: Mummified remains show that the inhabitants (or at least many of them) were Caucasian in Physical type, with sandy or red hair, pale skin, and a tall build.
THESE PEOPLE WERE CLEARLY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE, ALL THE CHINESE RECORDS AND GREEK RECORDS SEEM TO SAY SO. THE GREEKS DESCRIBED THE SCYTHIANS AS HAVING RED HAIRED AND BEING GERMANIC LOOKING, BUT THEY CONFUSED THE YUEZHI AS BEING ONE OF THEM BECAUSE THEY LOOKED LIKE SCYTHIANS! THEREFORE THE YEUZHI AND THE TOCHARIANS WERE MOST LIKELY WHITE ALBINO'S AND NOT BLACK PEOPLE!
Mike is right when he assumes that the Yuezhi was just an off-shoot of many Dravidian Albino tribes who had settled Central Asia/Eurasia as described by their RED/LIGHT HAIR!
THIS IS HOW THE YEUZHI IN ALL LIKELIHOOD LOOKED LIKE!
You're ignorant. I don't waste my time with ignorant people when they prove to be stupid.
As I said before I will not debate this issue with you, you can't dispute anything I wrote because you can't read Chinese, Kushan, French and or Tamil.Your propositions are based on hope--not evidence.
.
Clyde you are just being ignorant, you can't read Chinese and don't speak Chinese, nor can you actually read or speak French or the Tamil languages. You are not proficient in those languages or at least you have not provided evidence that you are. You are simply passing off hearsay.
First you said the Harappan civilization and the Elamite civilizations were in Central Asia, which is false and is a lie. Those civilization were in South and South/West Asia, not Central Asia. You didn't admit you were wrong even though you were.
Secondly, I showed you sources with actual genetic tests and written hand accounts of the Yeuzhi, showing them to be basically a white people, you instead gave me flimsy linguistic records that don't prove a thing and just outright denied them while failing to refute them.
Thirdly, just because some of the figures have broad noses does not make them African. There are so called Whites with broad noses:
Here is an actual picture of Tocharians/Yuezhi people defaced by the Chinese for being too Europid/Caucasoid looking:
CLEARLY THESE DO NOT LOOK LIKE BLACK PEOPLE, THEY LOOK LIKE MIKE'S ALBINO'S!
Also the Kushana DID NOT RULE INDIA! They RULED PARTS OF INDIA, LIKE THE NORTHERN PART OF INDIA, BUT NOT TH$E REST! THEREFORE THAT STATEMENT IS ALSO A LIE!
Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
BTW here are more pictures of Yuezhi/Tocharian people that survived or were painted by writers of them:
THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE THIS THAT LIVE THERE TODAY! Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: BTW here are more pictures of Yuezhi/Tocharian people that survived or were painted by writers of them:
THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE THIS THAT LIVE THERE TODAY!
These pictures are of Tocharians--not Yuezhi people. The Yuezhi were the Kushana people who were Blacks.
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani. The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuezhi, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state.
In 7th century, Turkic immigrants from the collapsing Uyghur Khaganate of Mongolia entered Central Asia. These Turks coined the Western European white nomads Tochari. The Turk took control of the area and began to absorb the Tocharians. Today these Turkic speakers and the Indo-Greeks make up the Uyghur ethnic group.
The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The ethonyms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the Western European white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi, who were Black people .
In summary, these pictures of whites are not Kushana. They are Tochari Bactrians. The Bactrians : Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli – were Western European whites or Indo=Greeks. These whites who came to Central Asia with the Greeks after 300 BC, ruled much of Central Asia before the Yuezhi /Kushana . The Kushana did not reach the Oxus Valley until around 150 BC. .
Posted by Mindovermatter (Member # 22317) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: BTW here are more pictures of Yuezhi/Tocharian people that survived or were painted by writers of them:
THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE THIS THAT LIVE THERE TODAY!
These pictures are of Tocharians--not Yuezhi people. The Yuezhi were the Kushana people who were Blacks.
These white nomads came from the Iaxartes River that adjoins that of Sacae and the Sogdiani. The term Tochara has nothing to do with the Yuezhi, this was a term used to describe the people who took over the Greek Bactrian state.
In 7th century, Turkic immigrants from the collapsing Uyghur Khaganate of Mongolia entered Central Asia. These Turks coined the Western European white nomads Tochari. The Turk took control of the area and began to absorb the Tocharians. Today these Turkic speakers and the Indo-Greeks make up the Uyghur ethnic group.
The use of the term Ars'i does not relate to the Kushana people. The ethonyms: Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli, refer to the Western European white nomads that took Bactria away from the Greeks—not the Yuezhi, who were Black people .
In summary, these pictures of whites are not Kushana. They are Tochari Bactrians. The Bactrians : Asii, Pasiani, Tochari and Sacarauli – were Western European whites or Indo=Greeks. These whites who came to Central Asia with the Greeks after 300 BC, ruled much of Central Asia before the Yuezhi /Kushana . The Kushana did not reach the Oxus Valley until around 150 BC. .
Clyde c'mon, you are resorting to lying right now, how low can you get? YOU SAID THAT THE TOCHARIANS WERE NOT WHITE AND DID NOT LOOK WHITE, NOW THAT I PRESENTED TO YOU EVIDENCE YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE WHITE BUT THEN YOU SAY THE YUEZHI WERE NOT WHITE!
THE PICTURE OF THE RED-BEARDED MAN AND THE CLAY BUST OF THE SAID RED BEARDED MAN IS THAT OF A SURVIVING FRAGMENT OF A YUEZHI WARRIOR THAT WAS RECOVERED AND AS ATTESTED TO BY ANCIENT CHINESE SOURCES! MODERN SCHOLARS USE THIS BUST AS A SURVIVING FRAGMENT OF A HOW THE YEUZHI LOOKED LIKE!
THE TOCHARIANS PREDATED THE YUEZHI, AND YET TO THIS DAY, THE PEOPLE IN THE AREA LOOK PSEUDO WHITE! If the pictures and murals show a white people, and the DNA and written records show a white people, if the Greeks confused the Yuezhi with Scythian white people, and the Chinese described them as having red hair and Caucasian features, THEN THEY WERE WHITE PERIOD!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mindovermatter: ]Clyde c'mon, you are resorting to lying right now, how low can you get? YOU SAID THAT THE TOCHARIANS WERE NOT WHITE AND DID NOT LOOK WHITE, NOW THAT I PRESENTED TO YOU EVIDENCE YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE WHITE BUT THEN YOU SAY THE YUEZHI WERE NOT WHITE!
THE PICTURE OF THE RED-BEARDED MAN AND THE CLAY BUST OF THE SAID RED BEARDED MAN IS THAT OF A SURVIVING FRAGMENT OF A YUEZHI WARRIOR THAT WAS RECOVERED AND AS ATTESTED TO BY ANCIENT CHINESE SOURCES! MODERN SCHOLARS USE THIS BUST AS A SURVIVING FRAGMENT OF A HOW THE YEUZHI LOOKED LIKE!
THE TOCHARIANS PREDATED THE YUEZHI, AND YET TO THIS DAY, THE PEOPLE IN THE AREA LOOK PSEUDO WHITE! If the pictures and murals show a white people, and the DNA and written records show a white people, if the Greeks confused the Yuezhi with Scythian white people, and the Chinese described them as having red hair and Caucasian features, THEN THEY WERE WHITE PERIOD!
The Greeks called the Yuezhi: Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano, not Tochari.The only mural you showed dates to the 5th Century AD--not Kushan times.
The Greeks did not call the Kushana Tochari, because Tochari is a Turk word and the Turks were not in Central Asia in Greek times.
Below are my sources for the Yuezhi representing a Black people.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi are one and the same. The Kushana- Yuezhi association is discussed in Chinese and Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuezhi were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
The Chinese called the Blacks of China Yueh. The Yueh people were also called Yuezhi or Kuishuang [Kushana]. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein. The li Qiang Black Qiang of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China.
Tochari is a Turkic word for Western European whites in Central Asia. The Greeks called the Yuezhi: Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano, not Tochari.[b] In the Chinese sources the Kushana were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang = Yuezhi][/b .
Now I want you to provide your sources claiming that the Yuezhi were whites. We know that the Tochari were whites.
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Mindovermatter,
Those aren't White people though.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Mindovermatter,
Those aren't White people though.
.
Got pale skin?
Got Red or Blond hair?
Got Blue Eyes?
He,he,he,he,he:
Neither are you.
Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
Mike,
Shut up Whitey hater.
Pale Skin-Check but not as pale as those two boys MOM posted on here & not as pale as an albino
Red or Blond hair- Nope mine is light brown w/ a very red tint
Blue Eyes- Check, actually they are greenish blue
BTW Mike not all White people have very pale skin or Blond or red hair or Blue eyes dumby. Some of us have brown or black hair, green eyes, gray eyes, hazel eyes, & brown eyes.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Bodhisattva Maitreya Kushan period 2nd-3rd century CE from the ancient region of Gandhara Pakistan Schist
The Gift of Anathapindada, Kushan period, 2nd–3rd century Pakistan, ancient region of Gandhara Schist with traces of gold foil
Panel with the god Zeus/Serapis/Ohrmazd and Worshiper Kushan Empire Bactria 3rd century CE Terracotta gouache
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^ I love your defense mechanism. lol
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Mike,
Shut up Whitey hater.
Pale Skin-Check but not as pale as those two boys MOM posted on here & not as pale as an albino
Red or Blond hair- Nope mine is light brown w/ a very red tint
Blue Eyes- Check, actually they are greenish blue
BTW Mike not all White people have very pale skin or Blond or red hair or Blue eyes dumby. Some of us have brown or black hair, green eyes, gray eyes, hazel eyes, & brown eyes.
The way you've described yourself, you're not "truly white". "You are not the "ideal" Aryan chick.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
...
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Dr. Winters: "The Yuezhi were the Kushana people who were Blacks.
Below are my sources for the Yuezhi representing a Black people.
The Kushana and the Yuezhi are one and the same. The Kushana- Yuezhi association is discussed in Chinese and Dravidian literature. V Kanakasabhai, The Tamils Eighteen hundred years ago note that in the Sanskrit literature the Ramayana and Matsya, the Yuezhi were called Yakshas or Kosar. The Pali chroniclers called them Yakkos and Kosars< Kushana.
The Chinese called the Blacks of China Yueh. The Yueh people were also called Yuezhi or Kuishuang [Kushana]. The Yueh of North China established Xia. According to the Yi Xia Dong Xi Shuo, by Fu Ssumein. The li Qiang Black Qiang of Shang were united with the Yueh people of southwest China.
Tochari is a Turkic word for Western European whites in Central Asia. The Greeks called the Yuezhi: Kushana in the Karosthi inscriptions, and Kocano, not Tochari. In the Chinese sources the Kushana were called Koei-shuang or Kwei-shwang = Yuezhi] ."
- - -
"Yueh zhi" does not sound too similar to Koei-shuang or Kwei shwang, although it might be.
Black Sea = Pontus Euxinus/Euxine/Ue.Xy ~ Yuezhi People of the Black Sea include "Ethiopians" from Colchis.
"Yuezhi is a Chinese exonym, formed from the characters yuč (月) "moon" and shě (氏) "clan". While there are numerous theories about the origin of this name, none has yet found general acceptance.[6][7] According to Zhang Guang-da, the name Yuezhi is a Sinicized transliteration of a Yuezhi endonym..." (wiki)
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Kushan giant Black Buddha in Bamiyan Afghanistan
Bamiyan Black Buddha face destroyed
Bamiyan Black Buddha destroyed by the Taliban
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
I propose this: that the "Ethiopians" of Colchis, and the "Ethiopians" that started Egypt at Aker/Akele (per Legesse), and the black-headed people of Sumer, were Black Sea people = Yue Zhi = (yu)e-zhi/E-gy(pt) [bt/pt = ptah] / Ae-gean = Yue Zhi = Cush.ana = Kush.ite who emigrated to start trade colonies and hierarchical structured societies.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I propose this: that the "Ethiopians" of Colchis, and the "Ethiopians" that started Egypt at Aker/Akele (per Legesse), and the black-headed people of Sumer, were Black Sea people = Yue Zhi = (yu)e-zhi/E-gy(pt) [bt/pt = ptah] / Ae-gean = Yue Zhi = Cush.ana = Kush.ite who emigrated to start trade colonies and hierarchical structured societies.
In a way you are correct, After the great Flood, the Kushites began to occupy former Anu trade centers in Eurasia.
__________Bodhisattva Maitreya Kushan period 2nd-3rd century CE from the ancient region of Gandhara 
