• 
  Adoration of Amun Re
  
  -- chief of all the gods, the good god, beloved one,
  who gives life to all warm-blooded creatures and
  all beautiful animals. Hail to you Amun Re, Lord of
  the Thrones of the Two Lands, foremost in Thebes,
  Bull of His Mother, foremost of his fields, wide of
  stride, Foremost in Nubia, Lord of the Medjay,
  Ruler of Punt, most ancient in heaven and
  eldest in all the world, who dwells in all things.
  
  
  Cerny's (1958) translation off one of the so-called Bankes Stelae.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Knowledge Seekers of course have read the first page
of this thread and know two things. One - the textual
order never varies. Two - the Ramesses III illustration
is a one off unrepeated in any other tomb. And if I
may add a Three - Seti I's tomb has a version with
text and illustration both seemingly in error.

Reposting from 05 April 2007:

• Originally posted by alTakruri:
  
  The textual order of the "Herd of RA" in BG4:5 s30 is: [list=1]
• RT RMT yw
• AAMW
• NHHSW
• TMHHW

This order can never change because the AE viewed
themselves as first among all humanity and because
Ra

• first shines on the AAMW in the morning,
• then on the NHHSW as the day wears on,
• and finally sets on the TMHHW.

The Ramses III painting is controversial in that
</font>

1. the RT RMT yw and NHHSW do not differ
2. by visuals, the AAMW and TMHHW have exchanged places.

Of the four tombs which I've seen the vignette,
only Ramses III's has these anomallies. This is
why many would discount its accuracy depicting
AEs and ASs without any significant distinction
because the men labeled AAMW look like the TMHHW
and the men labeled TMHHW resemble the AAMW in
Merneptah's, Seti I's, and Seti II's tombs.

I have seen no convincing explaining away of the
AAMW TMHHW switcheroo. But I do not think the one
mistake (intentional or not, and not corrected by
the AE painter's AE supervisor) has much if any
bearing on the nearly identical RT RMT yw and NHHSW.

By way of note this vignette was painted in twice
in Seti I's tomb. The version in KV17j has a hybrid
AAMW/TMHHW representative and the text mistakenly
jumps from the middle to the end of the passage in
the register where the four AAMW normally appear.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

All in all, this may be a way of saying a black is
a black (whether from up Nile or down Nile) and a
red is a red (whether from the Levant or the Amenti).

---

This opinion assumes that the "Egyptians had a concept of race and held "blacks" as one race and "reds" as another race.
(So much for Libyans)
If, ignoring the military campaigns, the Egyptians wanted to make a show of racial unity between themselves and the Kushites they would have portrayed a jet black Egyptian in Egyptian clothes and show, as they already did, the Kushite as jet black in Kushite clothes.

I tell you what happened. They hired some Kushite contractors to do the painting and they had a little "fun" with it. They did it at the last minute before the tomb was sealed and got a little bit of revenge against Egyptian domination of Nubia.



the funny thing is

this is supposedly as per the Egyptians, a man of the red race:


and this is supposedly, as per the Egyptians, a man of the black race:

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Thanks, good to know.

1) Do the Egyptians appear similar to the Sudanese, in the kv17j chamber as well?
2) As you've suggested the 'mistakes' are unlikely to have been unintentional, as they always happen in the compatible manner; Egyptians grouped with Sudanese and Asiatics with Libyans. We don't see Book of gates versions with Sudanese wearing Asiatic tunics, or Egyptians in Libyan morphology.

quote:

---

And if I may
add a Three - Seti I's tomb has a version with text and illustration both seemingly in error.

---

Of course, the Lioness would never harp on other mixed up reproductions or actual tomb paintings that appear 'out of order', and we all know why. In her mind, there is nothing wrong, unless the Egyptian figures don't conform to her notion of the Egyptians being 'mulattoes', relative to the Sudanese representatives:


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
For those who may be new to this and missed the
development of this issue since November 2004
when I first began presenting it here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri on October 04, 2006:

Transliteration and translation of the 1st 5 columns
of the Book of Gates the Gate of Teka Hra vignette 30

code:

---

CAPS = multi-literal phonogram; 
:    = determinative; 
[]   = unvoiced phonetic compliment; 
.    = suffix 

---

code:

---

Col1: å-n                HRW   n    nn.[n-n]
      Says(interogative) Heru  to   these:  
-
Col2: [HHQ3].`a-w-t.plural        RA
      "Herds                 (of) Ra
-
Col3: å-m.w:plural        DWA.t:pr
      Dwellers       (in) netherworld.
-
Col4: KM[m].t:nwt          d-sh-r.t:nwt    AKH
      Black community.   Red community.
-
Col5: [kh]:scroll     n    th-n:plural  HQA.w:plural       RA
      Beatification   to   ye           subjects      (of) Ra!  

---

The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in
the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them
into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection,
and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.


Heru is addressing all four types, first with a general intro
to the entire party of the afterlife dead (who died that day) still
in their shrouds. He "beatifies" them, reanimates them with
"spirit" (breath/wind), and releases them from their shrouds.
Then after all that he addresses each group in turn speaking
of the origins of their creation and assigning their "patron" deity.
First the RT RMTW and then in from sunrise to sunset order the
AAMW, NHHSW, and TMHHW .

The NWT ideogram means neither people nor land. This has
been explained a few times already and there's a post in the
archive with the subject header "KMT NWT" detailing this. The
glyph depicts a crossroads indicating a village or city, i.e. a
settlement or habitation. thus the use of it to mean community
in its broad application for the corpus of the dead. It always
appears as the determinative following the name of a city.
There are other ideograms for land terms (KM.T + N18 and
DSHR.T + N25) for instance. That's why I reject NWT's use
in this text as "land."

Now if one wants to take black as meaning literal black skin, then
go ahead. I recognize a range of skin tones among blacks and
also recognize the difference as used in Africa between blacks
and reds, both of whom may be African, and blacks and reds
where reds means coloureds and whites. As an example, in
medieval Arab writings they class themselves as reds in
distinction to black Africans of Biled es Sudan but as blacks
in distinction to red/white Eurasians like Persians, Slavs, etc.

So, in this sacred text is another example of dshr.t
not being applied to any desert or even any outland.

---

In scene 30 Horus establishes the blacks and the
reds as two communities not races, a concept not
introduced until the birth of anthropology in the
18th century in expansionist Europe.

Inscene 30 Heru states that the blacks are the
creations of his or Re's tears/semen and under
his patronage whereas the reds have Sekhmet as
their patron.

The blacks are the RT RMT yw and the NHHSW Nile dwellers.
The reds are the A3MW and TMHHW of the adjoining deserts.

But all this is offtopic as it has nothing to do
with Yurco & Hornung vs. Ampim & Lepsius. The
poisonous reptile is hijacking my thread because
no one took interest in Lyin' Ass's own thread on
Ramesses III's scene 30.

Snaky can't build its own thread so seeks to infect
mine with phuckup after phuckup because no moderator.


Whoever wants to can discern between Snaky's venomous
phuckups and facts by GOOGLING
altakruri teka hra
or
altakruri BG 4:5 30
for factual matter on the scene itself in distinction
to the lies Yurco, Hornung, and Weeks' Theban Mapping
Project spread about the veracity of what's on the
walls of Ramesses III's tomb.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^actually this is in order, somebody just reversed it, in the exact proper sequence but backwards. It is a condensation from the Seti I already mentioned



'productions
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Praise God I did manage to transfer it.
Here it is sans the transliteration.




My apologies to Arara Sabalu who asked
for this in The Herd of Ra thread on ESR
where there's a novel alternate translation
by one Etile (hyperlink).

This translation supercedes my previous
postings, is tentative, not literal, rather
designed for 21st century understandings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
For those who may be new to this and missed the
development of this issue since November 2004
when I first began presenting it here.


In scene 30 Horus establishes the blacks and the
reds as two communities not races, a concept not
introduced until the birth of anthropology in the
18th century in expansionist Europe.

Inscene 30 Heru states that the blacks are the
creations of his or Re's tears/semen and under
his patronage whereas the reds have Sekhmet as
their patron.

The blacks are the RT RMT yw and the NHHSW Nile dwellers.
The reds are the A3MW and TMHHW of the adjoining deserts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Whoever wants to can discern between Snaky's venomous
phuckups and facts by GOOGLING
altakruri teka hra
or
altakruri BG 4:5 30
for factual matter on the scene itself in distinction
to the lies Yurco, Hornung, and Weeks' Theban Mapping
Project spread about the veracity of what's on the
walls of Ramesses III's tomb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
come on my G's this thread was dead until Clyde moved it up

---

Lyin' Ass has no one to talk to and so disrupts threads with the malevolence of a snake, phucking
up just to phuck up.


Please revive your own damn inactive thread will ya please? I mean if YOU even know where it is
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The only thing 'dead' about this thread is the lyinass's brain.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
And your one-time love affair with Yurco. lol
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ What makes you think I had a "love affair" with Yurco just because I cited him in the past and will continue to do so in regards to his accurate writings on the Egyptians?? Yurco is not the only one by the way, as there are other Egyptologists like Redford for example which I and others on this board cited in regards to the accurate aspects of their work despite whatever flaws or biases they have expressed in other works.

You see unlike YOU, it's not the actual person I look to but rather his WORK or SCHOLARSHIP. People including scholars are not perfect. They have their flaws and definitely they have their biases. Whatever accuracies they have in their work, I support. Whatever inaccuracies they have I point out just like others in this board do.

But of course YOU don't understand since you always have take things personally especially when it comes to j-e-w-s.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Yeh, I know Yurco isn't the only racist you fools like to cite, recall your other fav. Sforza who's into "Forest Negros" and claims Khoisan are "Caucasian" mixed and what not. lol
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And obviously again my post about throwing out the baby with the bath water went straight over your imbecilic mind. Despite whatever racism the scholars are guilty of, that in no way negates some of their work. Sforza for example may have been wrong about many things, but his findings that Europeans are 1/3 African is well substantiated and supported by many others including black scholar Keita.

We all know you're just upset that a third of your Euro people have black ancestry.
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Keita never agreed with Sforza that Europeans are 1/3 pygmies. Don't be a fool.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Thanks, good to know.

1) Do the Egyptians appear similar to the Sudanese, in the kv17j chamber as well?
2) As you've suggested the 'mistakes' are unlikely to have been unintentional, as they always happen in the compatible manner; Egyptians grouped with Sudanese and Asiatics with Libyans. We don't see Book of gates versions with Sudanese wearing Asiatic tunics, or Egyptians in Libyan morphology.

quote:

---

And if I may
add a Three - Seti I's tomb has a version with text and illustration both seemingly in error.

---

Of course, the Lioness would never harp on other mixed up reproductions or actual tomb paintings that appear 'out of order', and we all know why. In her mind, there is nothing wrong, unless the Egyptian figures don't conform to her notion of the Egyptians being 'mulattoes', relative to the Sudanese representatives:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


Apparently this creamy depiction of ancient Libyan Tamehou from that tomb by Richard Lepsius does not exist in the real world.

This argument is thus null- and- void, is it not! [/QB]

---

dana, why are you still focusing on Lepsius when there is an actual photo of both Libyans and Syrians on the tomb wall posted by alTak near to the top of this page?

detail (one figure):


got any other hearsay?
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
i heard six million jews died in nazi gas chambers during ww2.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes and what you heard is based on actual evidence which you don't like because you have an irrational fear and hatred of Jews...

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingjewfrightened:

Keita never agreed with Sforza that Europeans are 1/3 pygmies. Don't be a fool.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

BTW - a Charles Finch contacted me on the Africa resource forum and said he went to see the authentic portrayal of Libyan depicted in Lepsius canon. He said it was nothing like the original.

So what you have been trying to spread around the web is lies Lyin_ss.


Dr. Finch wrote -
"Lepsius falsified the color of the Tamehou figure. I only know this because I actually went into the tomb of Rames III in 1995 – one of the few times it was open to the public – specifically to look at that Panel of Races. As is known, there are 4 racial types as depicted by Lepsius, but what is not known is that the Panel is reproduced 4 times with the same figures. I don’t know why. But that is not the issue; what is the issue is that the figure of the Tamehou in the tomb of Rameses III is NOT white, but a deep reddish brown, looking FOR ALL THE WORLD LIKE MASAI IN COLORING. One would ONLY know this by looking at the Panel ‘face-to-face’ inside the tomb. Again, Lepsius (c. 1844) – it must have been deliberate – depicted the Tamehou in the wrong color! To my disappointment, it was impossible to take a picture of this remarkable Panel. Cheikh Anta Diop obviously had never actually been inside the tomb of Rameses III, as so many have not, so took Lepsius’s depiction as authentic. I might add the Aamu, representing the Asiatics were ALSO depicted as a deep, reddish brown rather than the beige color represented by Lepsius. Lepsius’s version of the Panel is printed in color as a frontispiece to Van Sertima’s EGYPT REVISTED (1989/1991)." UNQUOTE!

Why am I astonished but not surprised?! Because I keep trying to give early European intelligensia the benefit of the doubt.

BUT ITS NOT WORKING! And I've been as brainwashed as everyone else because I can still hardly believe it!

---

Some confusion over Book of Gates scene 30 in Ramesses III
tomb may be due to confusion between its representation in
two separate chambers, one in chamber F and one in chamber
J if I'm not mistaken.

It may be true that in some cases Lepsius' artists
veered from the exact colors on the wall though off
hand I can't recall an instance now.

/6013/2of4th.jpg[/IMG]

---

Yes - so now i or rather the public needs to be made aware which of the Libyans are dark Maasai colored since it is obviously not clear from any of the renditions presented here.

The Aamu also do not look reddish brown.

I know one thing when and if this tomb is ever opened they better not have repainted them.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


Apparently this creamy depiction of ancient Libyan Tamehou from that tomb by Richard Lepsius does not exist in the real world.

This argument is thus null- and- void, is it not!

---

dana, why are you still focusing on Lepsius when there is an actual photo of both Libyans and Syrians on the tomb wall posted by alTak near to the top of this page?

detail (one figure):


got any other hearsay? [/QB]

---

You are true hearsay, two-headed SNAKE. I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom Your Lyin_ss.

Please stop using a black woman from your avatar. I must admit u could teach Broomhagatha's website a thing or two about diabolicality.

You've done the most to harm the straightening out of history of Africa's early Berbers and Egyptians by making African and other people think your 70 different colored renditions you've posted of Libyans from Lepsius' canon are real. i don't see the Maasai colored Libyans that Dr. Finch saw in the tomb and until I have an appropriate explanation for why I do not, I will have to assume there is some deliberate misrepresentation. if that means somebody has to find a way to take pictures of Libyans and Aamu in the tomb or tombs than so be it.

Boy, was I a pushover.

But I need to thank u because, now everyone can know about the likelihood such paintings were never in existence.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom Your Lyin_ss.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

You've done the most to harm the straightening out of history of Africa's early Berbers and Egyptians by making African and other people think your 70 different colored renditions you've posted of Libyans from Lepsius' canon are real.

---

stop the nonsense the above is not the Lepsius'.
The Lepsius are illustrations. The above is a photo of the tomb wall. It is a detail of a photo originally posted by alTakruri.
He has also posted the Lepsius illustrations in numerous other threads. Also keep in mind the title of this thread Yurco & Hornung vs. Ampim & Lepsius
Yurco and Hornung are the bad guys and Lepsius and Manu Ampim are the good guys according to this thread's topic. In fact it was Diop in Civilization or Barbarism who made the Lepsius illustrations so popular -and he was trying to say they were pointing to the truth.
In fact have a look at the numerous references to Libyans in The African Origin of Civilization by Diop and get back to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Lepsius' condensation (Denkmaeler Supplement plate 48) is indeed accurate
and authentic. I'm posting that whole plate where all can see it and also
another condensation of the same scene but from a different tomb in the
upper right half of the plate. That condensation is from KV8 (Merenptah's tomb).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

i don't see the Maasai colored Libyans that Dr. Finch saw in the tomb and until I have an appropriate explanation for why I do not, I will have to assume there is some deliberate misrepresentation. if that means somebody has to find a way to take pictures of Libyans and Aamu in the tomb or tombs than so be it.

Boy, was I a pushover.

But I need to thank u because, now everyone can know about the likelihood such paintings were never in existence.

---

dana, relax for a moment.
Ancient Libya in the time of Dynastic Egypt was comprised of several different tribes.

For example we notcie two differnt types of Libyans depicted in the Egyptian art:



1) the two first images are Libyans with the two crossing bands across the bare chest.
They have long hair and no sidelock. They are sometimes depicted with reddish brown brick-like skin tones


1) Libyans type 1

__________________________



______________________________________________________________

2) below are Libyans with the distinctive side lock (some Egyptians also wore a wider varient of the side lock)
These Libyans have a long gown type garment and do not have the two crossing bands acoss a bare chest as in type 1.
The also tend to be depicted with lighter skin sometimes yellowish or tawny. Two feathers are often worn at the top of the head. In the tomb of Ramesess III these are left out in order to to display text.
These are also the type of Libyans often seen in battle scenes with the Egyptians, the feather heads with side lock

Libyans type 2

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler aka alTakruri (detail from larger version)




[/QB]

---

 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 




 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patty:

---

^^^ Here's another variation. Sidelock hair Libyan with reddish brown skin tone


 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[QUOTE]dana, why are you still focusing on Lepsius when there is an actual photo of both Libyans and Syrians on the tomb wall posted by alTak near to the top of this page?


got any other hearsay?

---

You are true hearsay, two-headed SNAKE. I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom Your Lyin_ss.

Please stop using a black woman from your avatar. I must admit u could teach Broomhagatha's website a thing or two about diabolicality.

You've done the most to harm the straightening out of history of Africa's early Berbers and Egyptians by making African and other people think your 70 different colored renditions you've posted of Libyans from Lepsius' canon are real. i don't see the Maasai colored Libyans that Dr. Finch saw in the tomb and until I have an appropriate explanation for why I do not, I will have to assume there is some deliberate misrepresentation. if that means somebody has to find a way to take pictures of Libyans and Aamu in the tomb or tombs than so be it.

Boy, was I a pushover.

But I need to thank u because, now everyone can know about the likelihood such paintings were never in existence.

---

lol, good job Dana exposing the bogus "black woman"..


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Dana has the right idea. These trolls lyinass and anguished are psychopaths to no end. So what's the use of arguing with them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingjewfrightened:

LOL! Unsubstantiated rubbish. Look, stop polluting this thread with your nonsense. This is my final reply to you troll.

---

First of all, you're the one who brought up the topic of Jews being murdered in gas chambers, so YOU are the one polluting this thread!

Second, of all it is all substantiated by the records both documentation and videos of the perpetrators themselves which is an inconvenience to your lie.

So let's see, someone who pollutes a thread with his off topic neuroses which are outright lies. Yeah, that's very trollish of YOU.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the l'ss who has never traveled outside of his trailer park camper :

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patty:

---

^^^ Here's another variation. Sidelock hair Libyan with reddish brown skin tone

---

What Happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun
Richard. Smith

Source Journal of World History
Volume 14, Number 4, December 2003
pp. 459-500 | 10.1353/jwh.2003.0060


Abstract


Determining group identity in the ancient world, especially when peoples were lumped under the constructs of tribe and ethnicity, was based on point of view, and labeling was a haphazard process.

A case in point is the fate of those North African ancient writers called Libyans.


Did their descendants become the people Arab writers referred to as Sanhaja and Zanata?

Despite a significant degree of cultural discontinuity, the answer seems to be yes. A principal issue is the reliability of sources, which are markedly better for the era of Arab domination than for the ancient period.









 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Cont. ^ South Libya









 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Apparently this creamy depiction of ancient Libyan Tamehou from that tomb by Richard Lepsius does not exist in the real world.

This argument is thus null- and- void, is it not!

---

dana, why are you still focusing on Lepsius when there is an actual photo of both Libyans and Syrians on the tomb wall posted by alTak near to the top of this page?

detail (one figure):


got any other hearsay?

---

You are true hearsay, two-headed SNAKE. I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom Your Lyin_ss.

Please stop using a black woman from your avatar. I must admit u could teach Broomhagatha's website a thing or two about diabolicality.

You've done the most to harm the straightening out of history of Africa's early Berbers and Egyptians by making African and other people think your 70 different colored renditions you've posted of Libyans from Lepsius' canon are real. i don't see the Maasai colored Libyans that Dr. Finch saw in the tomb and until I have an appropriate explanation for why I do not, I will have to assume there is some deliberate misrepresentation. if that means somebody has to find a way to take pictures of Libyans and Aamu in the tomb or tombs than so be it.

Boy, was I a pushover.

But I need to thank u because, now everyone can know about the likelihood such paintings were never in existence.

---

Some fact finding team or individual persuing
their masters or a doctorate could petition
the antiquities ministry for all tomb photos
and facsimiles of The Gate of Teka Hra and
their verification by limited academic access
to the various tombs where it appears.

It was only done a relatively short timespan
of ~200 years from Horemhab to the Ramessides
and all these 19th dynasty pharaohs may not
have had scene 30 painted in any detail and
in fact may not have it at all on a wall but
rather on a sarcophagous.

And the idea should be to objectively see or
record what's actually there not to bolster
anybody's prejudiced one sided preferred view.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 


Tukuler, in your opinion is this an honest depiction of some type of Libyan in terms of the color of the Libyan?

I forget if this is an original or illustrated reproduction.
If someone one were to put forward that this is a "whitened" depiction of Libyans I don't see the motive.
Little is known about the ancient Libyans and I don't see why someone would want to be like them. They didn't leave big monuments and architecture or a lor of writing. Also in these scenes they are getting trampled by the Egyptians, not very flattering
Furthermore, their light skin depiction here on adds contrast to the darker Egyptians, the ones everyone wants to be.
In fact this picture also implies that many Egyptians were naturally dark and not simply tanned because otherwise they would be looking light like these Libyans, both living at the same latitude. The depiction here is also echoed by Diop
 

---

Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
 
@lioness

I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom

SWEDEN!!!???

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I was briefly surprised that you were able to post at the same time as me in the morning (London), when Americans on the East coast would still be asleep/just getting up.

A European location would make sense.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom

SWEDEN!!!???

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I was briefly surprised that you were able to post at the same time as me in the morning (London), when Americans on the East coast would still be asleep/just getting up.

A European location would make sense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Some fact finding team or individual persuing
their masters or a doctorate could petition
the antiquities ministry for all tomb photos
and facsimiles of The Gate of Teka Hra and
their verification by limited academic access
to the various tombs where it appears.

It was only done a relatively short timespan
of ~200 years from Horemhab to the Ramessides
and all these 19th dynasty pharaohs may not
have had scene 30 painted in any detail and
in fact may not have it at all on a wall but
rather on a sarcophagous.

And the idea should be to objectively see or
record what's actually there not to bolster
anybody's prejudiced one sided preferred view.

---

Finding Egyptological works on the web is difficult enough by finding actual tomb murals which haven't been seen in its entirety or sections which aren't shown at all is even harder. I agree, this part of scholarship needs serious contacts. I could email Dr. Weeks who specializes in tomb and temple complexes though I hope he isn't too busy to respond. I've tried emailing another Egyptologist recently on something and haven't had much luck.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
"Will Smith doesn't look much a Kushite to me"
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000712

"Hebrew concepts are rooted in the Levant right there with their immediate Canaanite neighbors."

"pretty much ALL old Hebrew stories are Asian"

then

"Semitic language and culture is also African"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=000490

"the [Hebrew] mythological traditions and spiritual beliefs are still in situ derived and not Nile Valley"

"obviously they were still Asian."

then


"I also know that the Arabian peninsula and Levant all the way of to the Zagros is geologically part of the African plate"

"obviously they were still Asian."


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And the point of you citing all those old quotes of mine is what again? I mean other than the fact that you're obsessed with me.

Tukulur, I will join in your demands to delete idiotic troll posts.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Some fact finding team [of professionals] or individual persuing
their masters or a doctorate could petition
the antiquities ministry for all tomb photos
and facsimiles of The Gate of Teka Hra and
their verification by limited academic access
to the various tombs where it appears.
...
And the idea should be to objectively see or
record what's actually there not to bolster
anybody's prejudiced one sided preferred view.

---

Finding Egyptological works on the web is difficult enough by finding actual tomb murals which haven't been seen in its entirety or sections which aren't shown at all is even harder. I agree, this part of scholarship needs serious contacts. I could email Dr. Weeks who specializes in tomb and temple complexes though I hope he isn't too busy to respond. I've tried emailing another Egyptologist recently on something and haven't had much luck.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


Apparently this creamy depiction of ancient Libyan Tamehou from that tomb by Richard Lepsius does not exist in the real world.

This argument is thus null- and- void, is it not!

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dana, why are you still focusing on Lepsius when there is an actual photo of both Libyans and Syrians on the tomb wall posted by alTak near to the top of this page?

detail (one figure):


got any other hearsay? [/QB]

---

detail (same one figure):

If that's the Libyan photo - what is this?


 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Some fact finding team [of professionals] or individual persuing
their masters or a doctorate could petition
the antiquities ministry for all tomb photos
and facsimiles of The Gate of Teka Hra and
their verification by limited academic access
to the various tombs where it appears.
...
And the idea should be to objectively see or
record what's actually there not to bolster
anybody's prejudiced one sided preferred view.

---

Finding Egyptological works on the web is difficult enough by finding actual tomb murals which haven't been seen in its entirety or sections which aren't shown at all is even harder. I agree, this part of scholarship needs serious contacts. I could email Dr. Weeks who specializes in tomb and temple complexes though I hope he isn't too busy to respond. I've tried emailing another Egyptologist recently on something and haven't had much luck.

---

Good looking, thanks.

Dana worked with Hawass in Egypt years ago. She may
know someone or mentor masters candidates who can go
directly to Egypt at the source and parley with the
antiquities ministry.


BTW there is no moderators and haven't been any
for years afaik but you can help by resisting the
very tempting urge to have fun and respond to troll
bait in this particular thread.

---

I think a more serious issue is why someone (perhaps Zahi) made it impermissible to take photographs of these paintings in the tombs - especially of those rendered in the Lepsius canon.

That is what Dr. Finch said in his letter.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I know certain flash photography is forbidden because it causes a certain chemical reaction in the air to accelerate decay; however with the advanced imaging technology that we have today, I'm sure there are safer ways of scanning the tomb murals without damaging them. Also, there are plenty of works with full color photographs of many murals from the Valley of the Kings. I don't see why they can't do the same for the Lepsius Cannon or other Teka Hra images.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Again, both Doc Ben and Manu Ampim photographed
and published the controversial Book of Gates scene 30 A3MW, NHHSW, and TMHHW in Ramesses III tomb.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
oh how we like to forget.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Newsflash from me - a response from Dr. Finch


"Dana

I think I have been into two chambers in the tomb of Rameses III but only one of them had the profile portraits I have talked about. There are actually 16 total portraits, four of each of the four ethnic types represented. The one you show below is still not as deeply, darkly reddish-brown as what I saw in the tomb. Again, I was sorely tempted to take a flash picture but I observed the rules and didn't. And yes the (4) Aamu shown were of the same dark reddish-brown coloration as the Temehou."

Dr. Finch wrote the above back this evening. To contact him please visit his site

www.Charlessfinch.com

He is a medical doctor and Egyptologist.


I am also wondering where are the 'Maasai colored" Aamu in the tomb photos.


This is the Libyan picture I sent Dr. Finch that he is talking about.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom

SWEDEN!!!???

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I was briefly surprised that you were able to post at the same time as me in the morning (London), when Americans on the East coast would still be asleep/just getting up.

A European location would make sense.

---

It's a garbage lie. Djehootie and dana lie.


I typically often go to bed at 5:30 AM sometimes later, wake up at 11am-1pm.
Also there is an ignorant assumption that there are no Black people in Sweden, James Brown was born there

Guess what, I can make up something like "I noticed Claus said in his profile, 'Black Bisexual' but two days later he deleted it"

If you say this every once in a while the gullible will start to believe it
It might be true it might not be true.

For example I heard dana has a large boil on her ass she asked me if I wan't to see a photo of it. I "declined" so I can't be certain if she actually had one. Some people might be into that, I'm not. I don't think it's attractive and I don't want to see pictures of it.

---

Thanks Claus. Boy oh boy, LYING - I would have thought from this email you have a photocam in my house.

Sweden it is then huh?
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
We also learn something about the differnce between the transgressive mindset of modern Eurocentric scholarship, and the submissive mindedness of too many Blacks.

The submissive Black man agonizes in confusion over whether Blacks as and ethnonym even exists in ancient times, or were rather essentially 'recently invented' by their white mind-masters.

The transgressive minded Eurocentrist brazenly implies that the Ancient Egyptians erred in self definition! So the Eurocentrists takes it upon himself to cut and paste and chop the photos so as to correct their mistake!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom

SWEDEN!!!???

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I was briefly surprised that you were able to post at the same time as me in the morning (London), when Americans on the East coast would still be asleep/just getting up.

A European location would make sense.

---

It's a garbage lie. Djehootie and dana lie.


I typically often go to bed at 5:30 AM sometimes later, wake up at 11am-1pm.
Also there is an ignorant assumption that there are no Black people in Sweden, James Brown was born there

Guess what, I can make up something like "I noticed Claus said in his profile, 'Black Bisexual' but two days later he deleted it"

If you say this every once in a while the gullible will start to believe it
It might be true it might not be true.

For example I heard dana has a large boil on her ass she asked me if I wan't to see a photo of it. I "declined" so I can't be certain if she actually had one. Some people might be into that, I'm not. I don't think it's attractive and I don't want to see pictures of it.

---

Thanks Claus. Boy oh boy, LYING - I would have thought from this email you have a photocam in my house.

Sweden it is then huh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by claus3600:
@lioness

I for one will never forget that when I first looked at your profile it said Sweden at the bottom

SWEDEN!!!???

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I was briefly surprised that you were able to post at the same time as me in the morning (London), when Americans on the East coast would still be asleep/just getting up.

A European location would make sense.

---

It's a garbage lie. Djehootie and dana lie.


I typically often go to bed at 5:30 AM sometimes later, wake up at 11am-1pm.
Also there is an ignorant assumption that there are no Black people in Sweden, James Brown was born there

Guess what, I can make up something like "I noticed Claus said in his profile, 'Black Bisexual' but two days later he deleted it"

If you say this every once in a while the gullible will start to believe it
It might be true it might not be true.

For example I heard dana has a large boil on her ass she asked me if I wan't to see a photo of it. I "declined" so I can't be certain if she actually had one. Some people might be into that, I'm not. I don't think it's attractive and I don't want to see pictures of it.

---

Thanks Claus. Boy oh boy, LYING - I would have thought from this email you have a photocam in my house.

Sweden it is then huh?

---

Whaaaat, James Brown born in Sweden?

Is there some alter ego?

The guard father of soul I know was:

Born May 3, 1933
Barnwell, South Carolina, U.S.

---

quote:

---

Dear Paul,
Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl. 48 are actually not Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I showed in my article in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1997). To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts between these figures were garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb and in Ramesses III's
tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites as distinctly different. Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are distributed between each
of the four figures depicting each type. You can now view the real photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III walls in Hornung's volumes on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside both tombs myself and have seen these scenes and their texts, and on the basis of this, the depiction in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of what is on the walls but rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process. It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that
patently it is not reality.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

---

quote:

---

Dr. [Charles] Finch wrote -
"Lepsius falsified the color of the Tamehou figure. I only know this because I actually went into the tomb of Rames III in 1995 – one of the few times it was open to the public – specifically to look at that Panel of Races. As is known, there are 4 racial types as depicted by Lepsius, but what is not known is that the Panel is reproduced 4 times with the same figures. I don’t know why. But that is not the issue; what is the issue is that the figure of the Tamehou in the tomb of Rameses III is NOT white, but a deep reddish brown, looking FOR ALL THE WORLD LIKE MASAI IN COLORING. One would ONLY know this by looking at the Panel ‘face-to-face’ inside the tomb. Again, Lepsius (c. 1844) – it must have been deliberate – depicted the Tamehou in the wrong color! To my disappointment, it was impossible to take a picture of this remarkable Panel. Cheikh Anta Diop obviously had never actually been inside the tomb of Rameses III, as so many have not, so took Lepsius’s depiction as authentic. I might add the Aamu, representing the Asiatics were ALSO depicted as a deep, reddish brown rather than the beige color represented by Lepsius. Lepsius’s version of the Panel is printed in color as a frontispiece to Van Sertima’s EGYPT REVISTED (1989/1991)." UNQUOTE!

Why am I astonished but not surprised?! Because I keep trying to give early European intelligensia the benefit of the doubt.

BUT ITS NOT WORKING! And I've been as brainwashed as everyone else because I can still hardly believe it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

quote:

---

Dear Paul,


Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl. 48 are actually not
Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I showed in my article
in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1997).
To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts between these figures were
garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb and in Ramesses III's
tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites as distinctly different.
Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are distributed between each
of the four figures depicting each type. You can now view the real
photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III walls in Hornung's volumes
on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside both tombs myself and have
seen these scenes and their texts, and on the basis of this, the depiction
in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of what is on the walls but
rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the
process. It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this
depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that
patently it is not reality.


Most sincerely,


Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I'm not sure what the late Mr. Yurco was trying to pull off here.
Erganzungsband only means supplement and it contains artwork from
the very artists Lepsius commissioned in his lifetime. The pieces
are ones Lepsius himself didn't get to publish before his death.

There's no hieroglyphic "garbling" nor are the "Egyptians and
Kushites" on Ramesses III's tomb wall distinct in any way less
than a trained detailist would notice.

To that effect, I submit that the Book of Gates 4:5 scene 30 as
depicted in Rameses III tomb (KV11f), besides displaying not one
phenotypical distinguishing feature, has RT RMT and NHHSW dressed
precisely the same down to the minutest detail.

They only differ in that the RT RMT sport earrings and their fabric
kilt is form fitting. The NHHSW have nothing attached to their ears
and their fabric kilt is loose, hanging to the same level as the
skin kilt.

Yurco makes pretend he doesn't know Lepsius' artist was rendering
a condensation. He goes on about real walls real photos as if fake
walls and fake photos are all that were available before Hornung.

Yurco's poor recall of the KV11f scene, if indeed he ever entered
KV11f instead of KV11j, is no excuse for a professional to claim
Lepsius' artist's deliberate condensation amounts to no more than
"a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process."

His statement "It is unfortunate that so many people have depended
on this depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs
shows that patently it is not reality." is only applicable to himself
and what he's just written in his letter to Paul.

Forthcoming are further images to support every word of my assessment.

---

 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Sorry, but Finch didn't know what
he was talking about since photos
prove Lepsius didn't alter colors
in this instance.





The lightest Tjemehu were painted creamy colored
(peaches and creme / cafe au lait) and I have seen
no pink white skinned with blonde hair Tjemehu in
any ancient Egyptian art. The lightest their hair
ever gets painted is chestnut brown.


This is about all that's left today of the source.
As with many archaeology sites, Seti I's tomb has
deteriorated since first re-opened in the late 19th c.
and as with W African artifacts looting has occured.



Also, be aware that Lepsius published the black skinned Egyptians of Ramses III's BG 4.5.scene30


 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Thx for the above. ^
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Pg 2 has important commentary on the black skinned Nehesi coiffed and clothed Egyptians.

Will extract and repost in a current thread as time allows. Or don't wait, do it for me. Heehee.
 

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