. The African type can be traced to the African type that lived in China. This Negro type was characterized by sindonty. The earliest examples of sindonty date back to the Choukoudian/Zhoudian Upper Cave type not the sundonty pattern which arrived in the Pacific with the classical mongoloid people found in Indonesia. This classical mongoloids entered Southeast Asia and the Pacific after African speaking Manding and Dravidian speaking people had already settled much of the Pacific. This is supported by the Sindonty pattern found among the Japanese who have a Dravidian and African substratum in their language.
Secondly, archaeological research makes it clear that Negroids were very common to ancient China. F. Weidenreich ( in Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-30) noted that the one of the earliest skulls from north China found in the Upper Cave of Chou-k'ou-tien, was of a Oceanic Negroid/Melanesoid " (p.163).
These blacks were the dominant group in South China. Kwang-chih Chang,writing in the 4th edition of Archaeology of ancient China (1986) wrote that:" by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the population in North China and that in the southwest and in Indochina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and OCEANIC NEGROID races respectively…."(p.64). By the Upper Pleistocene the Negroid type was typified by the Liu-chiang skulls from Yunnan (Chang, 1986, p.69).
Many researchers believe that the Yi of Southern China were the ancestors of the Polynesian and Melanesian people.
Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch'ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases ( see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k'ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes were still in the North in addition to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.
The founder of the Xia civilization was Yu. The Great Yu was the regulator of the waters and the builder of canals. He is also alleged to be the inventor of wetfield adriculture. Wolfram Eberhard, in The Local culture of South and East China (Leiden,1968), maintained that Yu came from the south and established the Xia dynasty in Shansi.
Archaeological evidence supports this view. The foreunner of the Xia civilization was the Lung-shan (Longshan) culture. The Taosi ruins , a Longshan between the Fenhe and Chongshan ranges is considered a middle and late Xia period site. Another important Longshanoid site is Qingliangang. The Qingliangang culture is a decendant of the Hemudu culture and dates to the fifth millennium B.C.(K.C. Chang, "In search of China's beginnings new light on an old civilization", American Scientist, 69 (1981) pp.148-160:154).
The oldest neolithic culture in China is the Hemudu culture in northern Zhejiang province. This culture group had incised and cord-impressed pottery, rice and domesticated water buffalo, dog and pig (Chang, 1981: p.152). The Hemudu pottery is reminiscent of pottery found along the coastal areas of southeastern China and Taiwan (Chang, 1981: p.154). This indicates that southern Chinese, who were predominantly Black early settled those parts of China associated with the Xia and Shang civilizations.
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
During the Anyang-Shang period, the Qiang lived in Ch'iang Fang, a country to the west of Yin-Shang . The Qiang people were often referred to as the Ta Qiang "many Qiang", they were used as agricultural workers, and used in Yin-Shang ancestral rites as sacrifice victims.
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309). Although Negritos were also established in north and southern China by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the populations in North China and that in southern China and IndoChina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and Negroid-Oceanic respectively, both having evolved out of a common Upper Plestocene substratum as represented by the Tzu-yang and Liu-Chiang skulls.
In addition to Oceanic Blacks in Southeast Asia and southern China shortly before the Christian era Africoids of the Mediterranean type entered these areas by way of India. Much of the archaeology in southern China is related to the Southeast Asian patterns, with numerous finds of chipped stone of the type found in Szechewan,Kwangsi .Yunan and in the western part of Kwangtung as far as the Pearl River delta.( Chang, 1977, p.76. ) Neolithic culture of southern China as the people were parallel to southeastern development. It seems from the evidence that in China there were several major areas where the Neolithic way of life characterized by farming for food, use of pottery and the making of stone instruments.
In Southern China the most well known early cultures were the Ta-p'enK'eng culture of the southeastern coast, cultures dating to the 5th millenium. The Ta-p'en-K'eng sites have a chracteristic cord-marked pottery dating to before theird millennium. A radio- carbon date is available for this culture of 4450-4350 BC. The color of the pottery ranges from buff to dark brown, the principal shapes of the vessels are large globular jars and bowls. The people of this culture also made many stone sinkers and dugout canoes.There is believed to have been an early horticultural revolution in the tropical regions of southeast Asia, with the domestication of several cultigens. As in Africa this culture was Aqualithic with most of the people living on mounds and pilled houses. These horticulturalist ate aqualtic animals such as fish and shellfish, and grew root crops such as yam and taro .The Ta-p'en-K'eng site has provided much insight into their agricultural origins as indicated by the great variety of cord marks on the pottery demonstrates. The habi tat of the ancient people who made this ware at Ta-p'en-K' eng, was widespread in IndoChina and even in southern China and Japan. The Hoabinhian culture of Vietnam and that of Ta-p' en-K'eng, were characterized by cord-marked pottery which is identical in both places , and it is possible that the Yang -shao site at Huang Ho basin in North China may have also been founded by blacks in southern China who probably been the cultivation of rice . In the southeast southerners began at Hupeh and Kuangsi the cultivation of means of artificial irrigation and by terracing of the mountain slopes. These same Austronesians were already using bronze before the Chinese. The women's standing was high, she participated in the worship which consisted of a mountain and snake cults.There is evidence from the physical anthropologist that skeletons from Shantung and Kiangsu show resemblances to the Negroid type of southern Chinese rather than Mongoloid, especially at the intial Ch'ing-lien -Kang and Ma chia-pang phases. As a result of this evidence it seems that agriculture was widely practiced in Southeast Asia and China long before the full impact of farming was felt in the North among the Chinese.
Neolithic technology in south China is typified by hunting with the bow and arrow. The stone inventories include shoulder axes, as those found at Ya-an in Sikang, and the island of Hainan. The ceremics are characterized by the long persistence of corded red ware. There was also painted pottery,black pottery, stone knives and sickles and pottery tripods , styles that later were duplicated in bronze. The people practiced single burials the appearence of decapitated heads at many sites in China suggest war and the expansion of the Chinese southward.
In ancient times due to the Chinese being a nomadic group, they probably cremated their dead and learned to bury their dead from the Blacks. The southern Chinese probably had their own writing system at an early date considering the - fact that they were well known traders and most trader-groups developed a script to keep records, yet we can not be sure of this fact. Moreover, the appearance of similar pottery signs on South Chinese pottery and North Chinese pottery indicate a common ideology for both groups.
Many of the elements of southern Chinese cultures and the impliments found in this area and Southeast Asia show an interrelationship. The people who live in Southeast Asia today speak the Austro-Asiatic languages, which are closely related to the Austronesian group. As indicated by the languages of the aborigines Ta-p'en-K'eng sites are found spoke Austronesian languages, the cultures of these groups were also Austronesian according to Dr. Shun-sheng Ling .
As in the African aqualithic, an extensive mound culture existed in China, an area strectching from i ts plateau in the west to the Western coast of the Pacific ocean, it includes the Huang-Huai(the Yellow River and the Huai River) plain of North China and the plain of the lower valley of the Yangtze River of central China, these mounds lie in the Ancient line of the Austronesian habitation. In accordance with oral tradi tion and Chinese proto-history mounds were in existence during the time of Huangti, and Fu-Hsi as reflected in the legendary narrative of the burial of Tai-Hao at Wan Chiul - chiu.
The mound culture began around 3,000 BC in China 7,000 years after a similar cul ture had developed in central and North Africa, which moved step by step to the lower valley of the Yangtze River, starting originally from the lower valley of the Yellow River. By about 1200 BC, the people practiced agriculture and ate aquatic animals.At the Kiangsu Province mound site called the Hu Shu culture,the mounds were man-made knolls called 'terraced sites '. The mounds are flat on the top, here the people placed their dwellings. These mounds served three purposes i) burial mounds, ii) religious places (i.e.,high ground) and iii) habitation. The mounds are believed to have been introduced by the people to China from the Euphrates-Tigris valley who are believed to have introduced the arts .
In conclusion, the sundonty pattern had nothing to do with the rise of mongoloid people. C.G. Turner's research makes it clear that the early Americans were sindonty not sundonty (see: Turner, "Teeth and prehistory in Asia, Scientific American,(Feb.1989) 88-96), in fact he places the origin of these sindonty people in Northern China at Zhoukoudian Upper Cave. An African influence in the rise of many cultures in East Asia is clearly supported by the archaeological, toponymic and linguistic evidence.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
In addition to craniometric evidence we also have genetic evidence for the African origin of the Chinese.
The genotype data provides clear evidence of the phylogenetic relationship of Africans and East Asians. It is clear that African derived haplogroups R1b1, E, DE and R1b1b2 are found in East Asia. Y-haplogroup is found among many Chinese Muslims or Huis.
There is evidence of R1 in East Asia. Zhong et al (2011) reported a number of y-chromosome markers in East Asia including R1a1 (29.41%0, R1b* (3.2%), R1b1b2 (1.6%) and R2 (3.21%).
It is interesting to note that Zong et al (2011) tested for the M335 marker which was first discovered in Turkey and classified as R1b. The M335 marker is a brother clade to R1b1* (M343+V88-M73-M269). This is interesting because R1b1* pursuant to ISOGG is R1b1 or V88.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Xia recognized there African heritage by referring to themselves as:Si/Zi (See: K.C. Wu, The Chinese Heritage, pp. 120 and 161).
The Mande speaking people also refer to themselves as Si
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang.
The term li min means "black people". The term for peasant had nothing to do with li min.
The term for peasant comes from the tsung-jen character which is formed by a group of three men usually placed under a sun, signifying that they are working on the farm in the sun.
In later periods many Chinese writers began to called the tsung-jen character li min, so as to associate this sign with the ancient designation of the Shang and Xia people who were "black or Oceanic/African people", not yellow people "browned by the sun". The founder of the Shang Dynasty, was called Xuan Wang "Black King". There is also mention of another Shang leader called xuan mu "Black Oxen".
The Chinese classics make it clear that the Min Li, meant "Black people" not young Chinese or peasant Chinese. James Legge's, The Chinese Classics (London, 1865) supports this view. In reading Legge's translation of the "Shu King", we read that "In the Canon of Yao, we discover that Yu "…regulated and polished the people of his domain, who all became brightly intelligent. Finally, he united and harmonized the myriad States of the empire; and lo! The black haired people were transformed" (Legge, 1865, p.17). In this passage "min li is used to describe all the people in the Empire, not just the peasants or the young people.
In Book II, Chapter It was written that Kao yao "…with vigorous activity sowing abroad his virtue, which has decended on the black haired people, till they cherish him in their hearts" (Legge, 1865, pp.55-58). Again the term li min was applied to the people of the empire and not just a particular group.
The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
.
The founders of China's first civilizations came from the West (read any Chinese history and you will find this to be true). These people were African speakers who entered the country in rading their chariots.
Pygmy Blacks also lived in China in addition to the Xia and Shang Africans. The ancient pygmies lived in Shantun and Yunnan from K'aehua in the southeast to Yun Ch'ang in the Southwest.
In Shantung the pygmies were called ziao-yao ='Black Pygmies'. The term yao= 'deceptive, pgymy, not grown up'. The word ziao='burnt black in the fire, darkened by heat of fire or sun'.
The ziao-yao are mentioned in the Annals of the Bamboo Books : "In the 29th year of the Emperor Yao, in Spring the chief of the zio-yao came to the court and offered as a tribute feathers from Mot waters". Mot water was a marine plant, probably seaweed.
But to understand the history of Blacks in China you need to learn the Chinese language.
The Zhou recognized the founders of the first civilizations in China: Xia and Shang as ‘li min’ “Black People”. Lets look at these words beginning with Min. The term Min= people.
Western researchers when translating the ancient Chinese textual material relating to Shang and Xia always mistranslates “Li” as ‘black headed or ‘black haired”. This is false. Dr L. Wieger, in Chinese Characters(New York: Dover Publications,1965) gives the translation of li = ‘dark, dun color, or black’ (pg. 618). As a result, instead of reading ‘li’ as dark haired, it should be read ‘black’. Thus Chinese Characters Li Min = ‘Black People’
The fact that Li Min means ‘Black People’, makes it clear that Western researchers mistranslate these Chinese Characters to deny the history of Black People in China.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
In northern China the blacks founded many civilizations. The three major empires of China were the Xia Dynasty (c.2205-1766 B.C), Shang/ Yin Dynasty (c.1700-1050 B.C) and the Zhou Dynasty.The Zhou dynasty was the first dynasty founded by the Mongoloid people in China called Hua (Who-aa).
The founders of Xia and Shang came from the Fertile African Crescent by way of Iran. According to Chinese legends the first man Pan Gu, used a hammer 18,000 years ago to make man.
The Chinese legends designate various culture heroes as the inventors of various aspects of Chinese civilization. The Chinese term for emperor is Di. Huang Di (Yellow Emperor), is the Chinese culture hero credited with introducing boats, carts 'chariots, the bow and arrow, ceramics, wooded houses and writing.
Chinese civilization began along the Yellow river . Here the soil was fertile and black Chinese farmers grew millet 4000 years ago, and later soybeans. They also raised pigs and cattle. By 3500 B.C., the blacks in China were raising silkworms and making silk.
The culture hero Huang Di is a direct link of Africa. His name was pronounced in old Chinese Yuhai Huandi or Hu Nak Kunte. He was supposed to have arrived in China from the west in 2282 B.C., and settled along the banks of the Loh river in Shanxi. This transliteration of Huandgi, to Hu Nak Kunte is interesting because Kunte is a common clan name among the Manding speakers.
The Africans or blacks that founded civilization in China were often called li min "black people" by the Zhou dynasts. This term has affinity to the Sumero-Akkadian term sag- gig-ga "black headed people". These li min are associated with the Chinese cultural hero Yao.
In the Annals of the Bamboo Books, we learn that Yao devised a calendar to help regulate agrarian work through proper use of ritual and music and created a rudimentary government. The Annals of the Bamboo Books, makes it clear that Yao "he united and harmonized the myriad states [of his dominion], and the [li min] black people were reformed by his cordial agreement".
We also read that Shun, the successor of Yao, distinguished by his reputation as an obedient devoted son, noted to : "Ki [that] the Black people are suffering the distress of hunger". To help relieve the people Shun gave his throne over to Yu, the founder of the Shang Dynasty. Yu, in the Annals of the Bamboo Books, is reported to have noted that "...when a sovereign gives response to the people, he is kind, and the Black people cherish him in their heart".
We know very little about the sounds of ancient Chinese because Ancient Chinese was different from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese and the modern Chinese dialects. (Ramsey 1987, pp.137-138) This results from the fact that the Chinese dynasties were founded by diverse ethnic groups e.g., Xia and Shang li (i.e., Black Shang) were founded by Dravidian and Manding speakers. Shang-Yin was founded by classical mongoloids, and the Zhou by the contemporary Chinese. ) This explains the difference in pronunciation for Ancient Chinese spoken by the Xia and Shang peoples and Old and Middle Chinese or a variant there of, which was probably spoken by the Zhou people.
The Shang characters compare favorably to the ancient Proto- Saharan script used by the Harappans in the Indus Valley and the Manding script used in the ancient Sahara and Crete . Winters (1985c) outlined the spread of the Proto-Saharan script to Harappa, and throughout Saharan Africa and Asia by the Dravidians and Manding.
Evidence of Chinese writing first appears around 2000 B.C. as pottery marks. The shell-and-bone characters represented writing they were not pictures. The Shang symbols compare favorably with ancient Manding symbols. Although their are different contemporary pronunciations for these symbols they have the same meaning and shape. This suggest a genetic relationship between these scripts because we know that the present pronunciation of the Chinese symbols probably has little relationship to the ancient pronunciation of Chinese spoken in Xia and Shang times when these characters were first used. This cognation of scripts supports the proposed Dravidian and Manding migration and settlement of ancient China during Xia times.
The identification of the first hero of China, Hu Nak Kunte as a member of the Kunte clan of the Manding speakers of Africa is supported by the close relationship between the Manding languages and Chinese. Even though we do not know the ancient pronunciation of many Chinese signs many Chinese and Manding words share analogy and suggest a Manding substratum for Chinese.
Chinese and Manding share many typological features. These features include reduplication for emphasis and the use of suffixes to form words.
In Chinese the -zi suffix, is joined to many nouns e.g., 0 qizi # 'wife'; 0 tizi # 'ladder'; and 0 jinzi # 'gold'. This -zi, suffix corresponds to the Manding use of si 'that, that one,those' e.g., kye si 'that man'.
The suffix -tou is used to form place words e.g., 0 litou # 'inside' and 0 qiantou # 'front'. In Manding the word for place was -ta.
The Chinese -r suffix is used to form nouns e.g., 0 hua # 'to paint' and 0 huar # 'picture'. This corresponds to the Manding suffix -ra which transforms verbs into nouns, e.g., 0 kyi # 'to send' and 0 kyira # 'messenger'.
There is also some analogy between Chinese and Manding pronouns:
Language I You he,she
Chinese wo ni ta
Manding ne ni, i a
These languages also share the interogative pronouns:
Chinese English Manding
0 ho # who,which,what 0 o #
In addition to cognate writing and grammatical features the Chinese and Manding share many lexical items. Below we compare Chinese and Manding terms. The Chinese terms are written in the Pinyin (phonetic alphabet) which is popular in China today.
There are numerous examples of phonetic correspondence between Chinese and Manding.
d=/=t
Chinese English Manding
di bend down ti 'negation suffix
da to cut down,destroy te 'negative particle'
dai to alter ta 'to put in'
du rot toli
da hill, hillock te-mbo
di Supreme Ruler tigi
d=/=d
da great,noble dya, da
di child di
da big dya,di 'several'
b=/=b
bu 'negative' bu 'to be in decrease
bo to break bo, bu 'to give a blow
ban great ba
b=/=p
bi to press,make impression pe
bai white, clean po
d=/=b
do cut bo, bu
h=/=o
ho 'everywhere' o 'void'
ho who,which,where o
f=/=f
fa 'kill' fe 'to be void'
s=/=s
shan 'mountain sande 'the sky region near water'
sa loose sa 'to die'
su 'to pound' --- su 'to mix'
su to suck susu
k=/=k
kan stem ka, kala
ku to cut open,rip up kulo 'to soften'
y=/=y
yu abundant,excessive yo 'perfect'
w=/=w
wa hollow wo
n=/=m
nu women musu
mu eye nya
ma mother na
o=/=o
do cut bo
bo 'break' ---- bo 'to five a blow'
rou flesh soro
a=/=a
da big dya
da great da
sa 'to loose' --- sa 'to die'
ban great ba
ma mother ma
o=/=u
so to grind su
yu 'abundant' --- yo 'perfect'
du rot toli
do cut bu
i=/=i
niu cow ni
xin 'heart' --- si 'breast'
di child di
iu give di
a=/=e
da 'to destroy' te 'negative particle'
tien cultivated field de-n
u=/=u
bu 'negative' bu 'to be decreased'
nu woman musu
du earth dugu
lu house lu
Above we have compared forty-six cognate Chinese and Manding terms. These terms can be divided into three sets of cognate items, (1) words in both languages with equivalent meanings with full correspondence, (2) words with consonants showing assimilation and (3) words with equivalent meanings but lacking similar phonetic values. Using this criteria we find that the cognate rate for corresponding Chinese and Manding terms are the following percentages 54% of the terms show full correspondence; 30 % show cognate terms with alternating consonants e.g., d=/=t, p=/=b , and etc.; and 15 percent of these terms are unrelated.
The analogy between the Manding and Chinese languages suggest that Manding is a substratum of Chinese. This also supports the view that some early rulers of China came from the Kunte clan and were Manding speakers.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Allan, S , "Sons of Suns:Myth and Totemism in Early China", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies (BSOAS) XLIV,(1981) pages 290-326.
Allan, S , "Drought, Human Sacrifice and the Mandate of Heaven in a Lost Text from the Shang Shu", BSOAS XLVII, (1984) pages 523-535.
An Jinhuai, "In Search of China's Oldest Capital", China Pictorial, (1986) pages 39-41.
An Jinhuai, "The Shang City at Cheng-chou and related Problems", In Studies of Shang Archaeology, (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1986) pages 15-48.
Chang, K C , "Prehistory and Early Historic Culture Horizon and Traditions in South China", Current Anthropology 5, no5
Chang, K C , The Archaeology of Ancient China, New Haven:Yale (1964), pages 359-375.
Chang, K C , Shang Civilization, New Haven:Yale University Press,1980.
Chang, K.C. The Archaeology of Ancient China, New Haven:Yale University Press, 1987.
Lacouperie, T de , The Languages of China before the Chinese, London:David Nutt, 1887.
Lacouperie, T de, "Origin from Babylon and Elam of the Early Chinese Civilization:A summary of the Proofs", Babylonian and Oriental Record 3, no5 (1889), pages 97-110
Ling Shun-Sheng , A Study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double and Deck Canoes of ancient China, the Pacific and the Indian Ocean, Taipei:Nankang, 1970.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "A Note on the Unity of Black Civilizations in Africa, IndoChina, and China",PISAS 1979, Hong Kong :Asian Research Service,1980b.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Are Dravidians of African Origin", P.Second ISAS,1980,( Hong Kong:Asian Research Service, 1981b) pages 789- 807.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Further Thoughts on Japanese Dravidian Connection",Dravidian Language Association News 5, no9 (1981c) pages 1-4.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Blacks in Ancient China,Part 1:The Founders of Xia and Shang", Journal of Black Studies 1,no2 (1983c).
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Possible Relationship between the Manding and Japanese", Papers in Japanese Linguistics 9, (1983d) pages 151-158.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Further Notes on Japanese and Tamil" ,International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 13, no2 (June 1984c) pages 347-353.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC", India Past and Present 2, no1 ( 1985b), pages 13-19.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils", Journal of Tamil Studies , no27 (June 1985c), pages 65-92.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia", India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986c)pages 225- 241.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad Winters ,"The Dravidian Origin of the Mountain and Water Toponyms in central Asia", Journal of Central Asia 9, no2 (1986d), pages 144-148.
Winters,Clyde Ahmad, "Review of Dr. Asko Parpolas' "The Coming of the Aryans". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 18, no2 (1989) , pages 98-127.
Winters, Clyde Ahmad, "The Dravido Harappan Colonization of Central Asia", Central Asiatic Journal 34, no1-2 (1990), pages 120-144.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Chinese tradition that Hu Nak Kunte > Huang Di came from the west around 2282 B.C. and introduced writing , ceramics, the chariot and etc., is interesting because it suggest that some rulers of Elam and China came from the Kunte/Kunta clan.As discussed earlier the Kunta clan originated in Africa.
An African origin for the Kunte/Kunta clan would also explain the genetic relationship between the Elamite and Manding languages on the one hand, and the Manding substratum of the Chinese language on the other hand. The discovery that analogous languages are spoken by two or more ethnic groups suggest an ethnic relationship between the speakers of these languages even though they are separated by thousands of miles. This results from the fact that although a particular ethnic group speaking a particular language may be present in a given geographical area today, this does not prove that the speakers of this language has always been native to the area in which they are presently found.
A good example of this is the United States the dominant population today is European, and Amerindians make up a minuscule population. We would assume that given the numerical majority of Europeans, that this situation has been the norm for centuries, maybe even for millennia. But history tells us that up until 1492, the United States was predominately occupied by Amerindians , not Europeans who only recently exterminated millions of these people.
.
Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
African Roots of China: A picture is worth a thousand words
^^ Amazing revelations in those images.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Soliloguy: ^^ Amazing revelations in those images.
technique:
1) find Dian sculptures with wide noses
2) apply theory: "wide noses are African ancestry"
3) exclude other Dian sculpture that doesn't fit theory:
Dian woman 246 BCE 8 CE
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: The 'pygmies' of Chinese legend, are Negrito's not Negroids. They also aren't indigenous to China.
Claiming blacks are native because some appear in ancient chinese art is fallacious.
By the same logic we can say the ancient chinese were caucasoid, since blonde and red haired Indo European mummies have been found in the Tarim Basin -
LOL. Negrito means 'little black/negro'.
The Zhou recognized the founders of the first civilizations in China: Xia and Shang as ‘li min’ “Black People”. Lets look at these words beginning with Min. The term Min= people.
Western researchers when translating the ancient Chinese textual material relating to Shang and Xia always mistranslates “Li” as ‘black headed or ‘black haired”. This is false. Dr L. Wieger, in Chinese Characters(New York: Dover Publications,1965) gives the translation of li = ‘dark, dun color, or black’ (pg. 618). As a result, instead of reading ‘li’ as dark haired, it should be read ‘black’. Thus Chinese Characters Li Min = ‘Black People’
The fact that Li Min means ‘Black People’, makes it clear that Western researchers mistranslate these Chinese Characters to deny the history of Black People in China.
.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Clyde, what are "Africoids of the Mediterranean type"? Can you define these more specifically? If indigenous Africoids have variable features as part of their native African heritage, how can they be "Mediterranean"? Please clarify.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Mediterranean type is simply blacks/ Africans with so-called 'caucasian features'. This term is often found in the archaeological literature where this africoid type were called Hamitic, Mediterranean or Armenoid.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Move it up.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Are there Chinese people today with black skin that can not be explained away via recent mixing of African and Chinese peoples within the last generation or so?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Are there Chinese people today with black skin that can not be explained away via recent mixing of African and Chinese peoples within the last generation or so?
Not that I know of. There were pgymy groups in China in the 1930's but I don't know where they are now.
China is a large country with many minorities so you can't say what group is or isn't in China
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Are there Chinese people today with black skin that can not be explained away via recent mixing of African and Chinese peoples within the last generation or so?
Just curious, when I post images like this, what goes through your mind?
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
The Chinese civilization had nothing to do with blacks.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): The Chinese civilization had nothing to do with blacks.
Post your counter evidence?
.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
Counter evidence to what evidence? You really dont have anything to stand on at all. This silly attempt to blackanize other cultures stems from the fact that you are ashamed of who and what you really are. Ultimately, you will come to realize you cant build a strong foundation on a shell. That shell will just crumble like the insufficient evidence you use to make yourselves the Chinese.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): Counter evidence to what evidence? You really dont have anything to stand on at all. This silly attempt to blackanize other cultures stems from the fact that you are ashamed of who and what you really are. Ultimately, you will come to realize you cant build a strong foundation on a shell. That shell will just crumble like the insufficient evidence you use to make yourselves the Chinese.
Thanks Sahel - I thought that this was another uniquely Negro problem.
What goes through YOUR mind when you view this picture?
.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
who the hell are you trying to fool talking that kind of bullshyt?
"hey yo mike, clyde et al did you know the original olmec and chinese were black nigga!!?"
"did you know the original dinosaurs who roamed the earth were black my nigga!!??"
shut the hell up!
heres what really happened. they (non blacks) did it and it has nothing to do with you. but heres my real problem with you goddamn clowns. you invent and postulate all this garbage because bottom line, you are AGENTS who support the stagnation and detrimental state of the black community. you have no dignity, pride and self respect. you really dont have a solution at all. all you do is avoid it like the plague. which makes you part of the problem.
you scum-bag piece of garbage. no one cares about your b.s cult.
Posted by typeZeiss (Member # 18859) on :
Mike
What ethnic group does the man in that picture belong to?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
He is only identified as a Kuomintang (Nationalist Chinese) from Yunnan.
Wiki: Yunnan is noted for a very high level of ethnic diversity. It has the second highest number of ethnic groups among the provinces and autonomous regions in China, after Xinjiang (which has forty-seven ethnic groups). Among the country's fifty-six recognised ethnic groups, twenty-five are found in Yunnan. Some 38% of the province's population are members of minorities, including the Yi, Bai, Hani, Tai, Dai, Miao, Lisu, Hui, Lahu, Va, Nakhi, Yao, Tibetan, Jingpo, Blang, Pumi, Nu, Achang, Jinuo, Mongolian, Derung, Manchu, Shui, and Buyei. Several other groups are represented, but they live neither in compact settlements nor do they reach the required threshold of five thousand to be awarded the official status of being present in the province. Some groups, such as the Mosuo, who are officially recognised as part of the Naxi, have in the past claimed official status as a national minority, and are now recognised with the status of Mosuo people.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Clyde, what are "Africoids of the Mediterranean type"? Can you define these more specifically? If indigenous Africoids have variable features as part of their native African heritage, how can they be "Mediterranean"? Please clarify.
Let me help Zarahan by posting the information below:
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Google Translator Spanish to English:
Presumably there since prehistoric population of African origin in Spain, although it is unlikely to ascribe any particular race.
In protohistoric times and in ancient times, there is documentary and archaeological evidence the existence of people of African origin, mainly sub-Saharan Mediterranean but, arriving with military contingents Carthaginian and Roman.
In the Islamic period, a significant number of black people came to Spain and some occupied high positions in systems and culture Caliphate.
Therefore, and black Africa being a major supplier of gold, during the Middle Ages there was the stereotype of wealthy black person, it is then when there are myths of Prester John and Balthazar.
Later, with the colonization of America and the establishment of the triangular trade, and notably from the late seventeenth century, the enslavement of black Africans affects growth of the aversion to the black.....
Original Text:
Es de suponer que desde la prehistoria existe población de origen africano en España, aunque es improbable adscribirla a ningún tipo racial concreto. En época protohistórica y en época antigua, se registra documentalmente y con testimonios arqueológicos la existencia de población de origen africano, principalmente mediterráneo pero también subsahariano, llegadas con los contingentes militares cartaginés y roman...
[typeZeiss writes] Are there Chinese people today with black skin that can not be explained away via recent mixing of African and Chinese peoples within the last generation or so?
[Marc writes] I live in Budapest, Hungary these days. I am always dumbfounded when I go to the Chinese markets and see faces that look totally negroid except for the straight hair.
I see so many Chinese with the very full nose and lips. If they wore a hat covering their hair, you'd swear they were black.
. .
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: . .
[typeZeiss writes] Are there Chinese people today with black skin that can not be explained away via recent mixing of African and Chinese peoples within the last generation or so?
[Marc writes] I live in Budapest, Hungary these days. I am always dumbfounded when I go to the Chinese markets and see faces that look totally negroid except for the straight hair.
I see so many Chinese with the very full nose and lips. If they wore a hat covering their hair, you'd swear they were black.
. .
yet despite looks they are considered genetically more distant from Africans than are Europeans
Posted by Shania (Member # 20323) on :
Those pictures of Chinese people with dark skin could just be Chinese people who got a tan from working outside all day. In forensic anthropology, "race" is determined by cranial shape and not by skin color, hair texture/color and eye color & shape. That aside, eastern Asian crania and sub-saharan African crania are quite different, this site will give you some of the différences: click here .
As another memeber pointed out, there were Caucasiod Indo-European Chinese, but this is theoretical because we are not sure whether the mummies had something to do with the Tocharian tablets. They could have simply been merchants visiting the Tarim bassin. One thing is sure is that the mummies were Caucasoid, the Tocharian language is Indo-European and that the ancient inhabitants were described as being taller than average with fair hair and eyes:
quote: Pliny the Elder (, Chap XXIV "Taprobane") reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking", suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin: "They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction—that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; that the father of Rachias (the ambassador) had frequently visited their country, and that the Seræ always came to meet them on their arrival. These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the purpose of communicating their thoughts. The rest of their information (on the Serae) was of a similar nature to that communicated by our merchants. It was to the effect that the merchandise on sale was left by them upon the opposite bank of a river on their coast, and it was then removed by the natives, if they thought proper to deal on terms of exchange. On no grounds ought luxury with greater reason to be detested by us, than if we only transport our thoughts to these scenes, and then reflect, what are its demands, to what distant spots it sends in order to satisfy them, and for how mean and how unworthy an end!"
Basing racial assumptions on statues and other art works doesn't always prove a valid point I find. We can never be sure what certain statues are meant to represent and statues generally follow to artistic trend of the time, for exemple some Sumerian statues have big eyes, I doubt they represent actual people with eyes like that.And Akhenaten's statue does not very human-like to me. Well that's my opinion.
Posted by Shania (Member # 20323) on :
Those pictures of Chinese people with dark skin could just be Chinese people who got a tan from working outside all day. In forensic anthropology, "race" is determined by cranial shape and not by skin color, hair texture/color and eye color & shape. That aside, eastern Asian crania and sub-saharan African crania are quite different, this site will give you some of the différences: click here .
As another memeber pointed out, there were Caucasiod Indo-European Chinese, but this is theoretical because we are not sure whether the mummies had something to do with the Tocharian tablets. They could have simply been merchants visiting the Tarim bassin. One thing is sure is that the mummies were Caucasoid, the Tocharian language is Indo-European and that the ancient inhabitants were described as being taller than average with fair hair and eyes:
quote: Pliny the Elder (, Chap XXIV "Taprobane") reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking", suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin: "They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction—that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; that the father of Rachias (the ambassador) had frequently visited their country, and that the Seræ always came to meet them on their arrival. These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the purpose of communicating their thoughts. The rest of their information (on the Serae) was of a similar nature to that communicated by our merchants. It was to the effect that the merchandise on sale was left by them upon the opposite bank of a river on their coast, and it was then removed by the natives, if they thought proper to deal on terms of exchange. On no grounds ought luxury with greater reason to be detested by us, than if we only transport our thoughts to these scenes, and then reflect, what are its demands, to what distant spots it sends in order to satisfy them, and for how mean and how unworthy an end!"
Basing racial assumptions on statues and other art works doesn't always prove a valid point I find. We can never be sure what certain statues are meant to represent and statues generally follow to artistic trend of the time, for exemple some Sumerian statues have big eyes, I doubt they represent actual people with eyes like that.And Akhenaten's statue does not very human-like to me. Well that's my opinion.
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
^Another duncie lioness sock puppet, I presume?
quote:Originally posted by Shania: That aside, eastern Asian crania and sub-saharan African crania are quite different, this site will give you some of the différences: click here .
Pray tell. What "race" the below skull belong to?
Posted by Shania (Member # 20323) on :
quote: Pray tell. What "race" the below skull belong to?
Let me guess, this is some kind of off-topic trick question ?
If the first were black then one would assume that they would genetically close to sub-saharan Africans, which is not the case as genetic distances between the two groups tell a different story:
[img] http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GTq4y-ohBFA/T1EJhScHjQI/AAAAAAAACKI/kpoFCf2Vo5M/s640/C-Sforza%2527a+Gen+distance.gif [/img] Posted by Shania (Member # 20323) on :
quote: The Shang characters compare favorably to the ancient Proto- Saharan script used by the Harappans in the Indus Valley and the Manding script used in the ancient Sahara and Crete . Winters 1985c outlined the spread of the Proto-Saharan script to Harappa, and throughout Saharan Africa and Asia by the Dravidians and Manding.
I have heard of no such thing as a proto-saharan script. The Harrapan script has yet to be deciphered, so for the moment we do not know what language they spoke. How can you link one language to another despite the fact that the other is still unknown ?
quote: This is supported by the Sindonty pattern found among the Japanese who have a Dravidian and African substratum in their language.
Any evidence to support this ?
quote: Secondly, archaeological research makes it clear that Negroids were very common to ancient China. F. Weidenreich noted that the one of the earliest skulls from north China found in the Upper Cave of Chou-k'ou-tien, was of a Oceanic Negroid/Melanesoid p.163.
quote: These blacks were the dominant group in South China. Kwang-chih Chang,writing in the 4th edition of Archaeology of ancient China 1986 wrote that:" by the beginning of the Recent Holocene period the population in North China and that in the southwest and in Indochina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and OCEANIC NEGROID races respectively…."p.64. By the Upper Pleistocene the Negroid type was typified by the Liu-chiang skulls from Yunnan Chang, 1986, p.69.
Since when have Melanesoid, Negroid and Oceanic/Australoid became synonymous ?
quote: In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang Qiang, Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty situated at Anyang was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 1964 pp.359-375 :375. The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
I do not speak Chinese so I can not be sure, but sometimes when people are associated with a color it doesn't always describe their skin color, the "Black prince" was refered to as being black because of his armor, not his skin color.
quote: The genotype data provides clear evidence of the phylogenetic relationship of Africans and East Asians. It is clear that African derived haplogroups R1b1, E, DE and R1b1b2 are found in East Asia. Y-haplogroup is found among many Chinese Muslims or Huis.
There is evidence of R1 in East Asia. Zhong et al 2011 reported a number of y-chromosome markers in East Asia including R1a1 29.41%0, R1b* 3.2%, R1b1b2 1.6% and R2 3.21%.
It is interesting to note that Zong et al 2011 tested for the M335 marker which was first discovered in Turkey and classified as R1b. The M335 marker is a brother clade to R1b1* M343+V88-M73-M269. This is interesting because R1b1* pursuant to ISOGG is R1b1 or V88.
R1b, R1a and their derivatives are mainly found in Europe, were the first Europeans black ? These haplogroups are associated with the spread of Indo-European languages, since they are found predominantly in Indo-European speaking populations. The haplgroup that is associated with Eastern Asia, therefore China, is haplogroup O. Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shania:
quote: Pray tell. What "race" the below skull belong to?
Let me guess, this is some kind of off-topic trick question ?
If the first were black then one would assume that they would genetically close to sub-saharan Africans, which is not the case as genetic distances between the two groups tell a different story:
You claimed that '"race" is determined by cranial shape' yet you failed to identified to what race the above posted skull belong to. You'll rather ramble about genetic studies you don't understand.
Posted by Shania (Member # 20323) on :
quote: You claimed that '"race" is determined by cranial shape' yet you failed to identified to what race the above posted skull belong to. You'll rather ramble about genetic studies you don't understand.
I just didn't bother answering your off-topic question. Instead of attacking me can you provide any counter arguments that are not sourced from a biased Afro-centrist website ?
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
^So then I take it you're backing out of your claim that cranial shape determines race?
If no then answer the question.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Shania
quote:
I have heard of no such thing as a proto-saharan script. The Harrapan script has yet to be deciphered, so for the moment we do not know what language they spoke. How can you link one language to another despite the fact that the other is still unknown ?
Maurice Pope in THE STORY OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL DECIPHERMENT, has made it clear that before an unknown language can be deciphered you must have the right theoretical structure to base your inquiry upon. Pope found that in the historical decipherments of ancient languages three preliminary conditions must be met:
1) confidence that a script can be deciphered; 2) location of proper names must be determined; 3) the grammatical rules of the target language/ script must be found .
Using the methodology of Pope we were able to make three assumptions/hypothesis leading to the decipherment of the Harappan writing.
One, it was assumed that Harappan script was written in the Dravidian language because speakers of this family of languages continue to live in the region.
Two, it was assumed that the Draviidan language shares linguistic and cultural affinities with the Elamites, Manding and Sumerians--all of whom used a similar writing system.
My third hypothesis was that the Harappan writing probably operated on the same principles as the related scripts, due to a probable common origin. Using this information I was able to decipher the Indus Valley writing.
We will discuss these hypothesis below.
Archaeological and linguistic evidence indicates that the Dravidians were the founders of the Harappan culture which extended from the Indus Valley through northeastern Afghanistan, on into Turkestan. The Harappan civilization existed from 2600-1700 BC. The Harappan civilization was twice the size the Old Kingdom of Egypt. In addition to trade relations with Mesopotamia and Iran, the Harappan city states also had active trade relations with the Central Asian peoples. We believe they were Dravidians because of the Dravidian placenames in the Indus Valley area.
Today there are isolated pockets of Dravidian speaking groups surrounded by Indo-Aryan speakers. Dravidian languages are spoken by tribal groups in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, West Bengal and Bihar.
The Dravido-Harappans occupied over 1,000 sites in the riverine Indus Valley environments where they had soil and water reserves. The Harappan sites are spread from the Indus Valley to Ai Kharnoum in northeastern Afghanistan and southward into India. In Baluchistan and Afghanistan Dravidian languages are still spoken today. Other Harappan sites have been found scattered in the regions adjacent to the Arabian sea, the Derajat , Kashmir and the Doab. The Indus script is written in a Dravidian language. I deciphered this writing long ago. The Harappans have left us thousands of written documents. These documents are called seals by archaeologists. The Harappan seals are written in a Dravidian language anologous to Tamil (Winters,1990).
Scholars early recognized that the Harappans may have spoken a Dravidian language. This view was supported by 1) the fact that in the West Indus , Brahui , a Dravidian language is spoken in Baluchistan and Afghanistan; 2) the Rig Veda is written in a form of Dravidian called SumeroTamil; and 3) the presence of Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit indicated that Dravidian speakers probably occupied northern India and Pakistan before the Aryan invasion of the area after 1000 BC with their grey ware.
Using the evidence of cognate scripts and the analogy between the Dravidian language, and the languages spoken by peoples using cognate scripts it was able to make three assumptions leading to the decipherment of the Harappan writing.
One, it was assumed that Harappan script was written in the Dravidian language. Two, it was assumed that the Draviaind language shares linguistic and cultural affinities with the Elamites, Manding and Sumerians--all of whom used a similar writing system. This led to a corollary hypothesis that the Harappan writing probably operated on the same principles as the related scripts, due to a probable common origin.
. Three, it was assumed that since the Harappan script has affinity to the Proto-Manding writing (Libyco-Berber) and the Manding language, the Harappan script could be read by giving these signs the phonetic values they had in the Proto-Manding script as preserved in the Vai writing, since the northernManding languages like Bambara and Malinke are genetically related to Dravidian languages like Tamil. The discovery of cognition between Vai and Harappan signs ont the one hand, and the corresponding relationship of sign sequences in the Harappan and Vai scripts helped lead to a speedy reading and decipherment of the Harappan signs.
This made it possible to use symbols from the Manding-Vai script to interpret Harappan signs. The only difference, was that when interpreting the phonetic values of the Harappan script, they were to be read using the Dravidian lexicon. The terms used to express the translation of Harappan signs are taken from Burrow and Emeneau's, Dravidian Etymological Dictionary. Once the seals were broken down into their syllabic values, we then only had to determine if the Harappan term was a monosyllabic word, or if it was a term that was made up of only one syllable.
A comparison of the Harappan signs, Brahmi and Vai writing show that the signs have similar phonetic value. It is the similarity in phonetic value that allows us to read the Indus Valley writing use Vai signs
Many would-be deciphers of dead languages have assumed that you can not read ancient language using contemporary or comparatively recent time-depth lexical material. This is a false view of archaeological decipherment. For example, Jean Champollion used Coptic to read the Egyptian hieroglyphics; and Sir Henry Rawlinson, used Galla ( a Cushitic language spoken in Africa) and Mahra (a South Semitic language) to decipher the cuneiform writing.
Moreover, we know from the history of the cuneiform writing several different languages (Eblate, Elamite, Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian, etc.) were used written in the cuneiform script. This meant that if cuneiform could be used to write different languages, why couldn't the Proto-Saharan script used in ancient middle Africa (and later Asia and Europe), be used to write genetically related languages like the Manding and Dravidian groups.
This decipherment Harappan seals (Winters, 1984a, 1984b, 1987a, 1985, 1987b, 1989) shows that they do not contain the names and titles of their owners. They are talismans, with messages addressed to the Harappan gods requesting blessings. This is in sharp contrast to the Mesopotamian seals which were used for administrative and commercial purposes. The Harappan seals illustrate that the Harappan Believer wanted from his god 1) a good fate; 2) spiritual richness; 3) virtue; 4) humility; and 5) perserverance. They were protective amulets found in almost every room in the city of Mohenjo-Daro.
.
The seals were usually worn as amulets.
The first seal reads from Right to Left:
Ga i ta paka i uss uss
Translation: Mayest thou experience a healthy social life, and security as thou (superior) fate.
In this inscription reduplication is used in relation to uss uss “(superior) fate
In this inscription we see the use of reduplication several times in the text
The transliteration is as follows: Tu ta tu tu ta tu te-i po tu po tu tu me tu tu me tu i al-papa tu tu-i.
Translation To experience the gift of virtue bring thou abundant flourishing condition of purity. To see excellence and virtue. Give the servant the distribution of gods mercy and abundant purity.
I have heard of no such thing as a proto-saharan script.
The first syllabic writing system of Africans was the Thinite script. This writing was used first by Blacks in Nubia, like the Niger-Congo people who migrated out of this region into the rest of Africa.
The Thinite script provides many of the signs that are included in later scripts used by Africans.
In Nubia, Black Africans were using Thinite symbols before the rise of Egypt to record their ideas and report on important events.
At this time your people may have been living in the caves of the Caucasus mountains.
This writing was later used by Africans to write inscriptions throughout Middle Africa.
The evidence of this writing is found throughout the Sahara. By the time Mande speaking people settled Dar Tichitt they left numerous inscriptions.
The people of Dar Tichitt were Mande speakers. These Mande speaking people also lived in the Fezzan where they were called Garamante/Garamandes. The Garamante settled Crete and are recognized as the Eteo-Cretans or Minoans.
As you can see from the above chart the Linear A signs and Mande/Manding signs are identical. If you look careful you will note that Africans, or Black people had also taken their writing system to Anatolia were your ancestors were living in the Caucasus mountains as hunter-gatherers.
The Minoans, who were Africans introduced Linear A, whose signs are identical to the writing left by Africans throughout the Sahara, like those found at Tichitt and presently represented in the Vai and several other West African scripts.
Your people adopted this writing to write business documents and we know it as Linear B.
Europeans only got writing from the Egyptians. The Greeks who obtained writing from the Blacks of Africa and Phonesia passed on writing to the Romans. With the fall of Rome Western Europeans got writing from the African Muslims who taught them the arts and sciences.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The African type can be traced to the African type that lived in China. This Negro type was characterized by sindonty. The earliest examples of sindonty date back to the Choukoudian/Zhoudian Upper Cave type not the sundonty pattern which arrived in the Pacific with the classical mongoloid people found in Indonesia. This classical mongoloids entered Southeast Asia and the Pacific after African speaking Manding and Dravidian speaking people had already settled much of the Pacific. This is supported by the Sindonty pattern found among the Japanese ho have a Dravidian and African substratum in their language. Secondly, archaeological research makes it clear that Negroids were very common to ancient China. F. Weidenreich ( in Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-30) noted that the one of the earliest skulls from north China found in the Upper Cave of Chou-k'ou-tien, was of a Oceanic Negroid/Melanesoid " (p.163).
These blacks were the dominant group in South China. Kwang-chih Chang,writing in the 4th edition of Archaeology of ancient China (1986) wrote that:" by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the population in North China and that in the southwest and in Indochina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and OCEANIC NEGROID races respectively…."(p.64). By the Upper Pleistocene the Negroid type was typified by the Liu-chiang skulls from Yunnan (Chang, 1986, p.69).
Many researchers believe that the Yi of Southern China were the ancestors of the Polynesian and Melanesian people.
Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch'ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases ( see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k'ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes were still in the North in addition to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.
The founder of the Xia civilization was Yu. The Great Yu was the regulator of the waters and the builder of canals. He is also alleged to be the inventor of wetfield adriculture. Wolfram Eberhard, in The Local culture of South and East China (Leiden,1968), maintained that Yu came from the south and established the Xia dynasty in Shansi.
Archaeological evidence supports this view. The foreunner of the Xia civilization was the Lung-shan (Longshan) culture. The Taosi ruins , a Longshan between the Fenhe and Chongshan ranges is considered a middle and late Xia period site. Another important Longshanoid site is Qingliangang. The Qingliangang culture is a decendant of the Hemudu culture and dates to the fifth millennium B.C.(K.C. Chang, "In search of China's beginnings new light on an old civilization", American Scientist, 69 (1981) pp.148-160:154).
The oldest neolithic culture in China is the Hemudu culture in northern Zhejiang province. This culture group had incised and cord-impressed pottery, rice and domesticated water buffalo, dog and pig (Chang, 1981: p.152). The Hemudu pottery is reminiscent of pottery found along the coastal areas of southeastern China and Taiwan (Chang, 1981: p.154). This indicates that southern Chinese, who were predominantly Black early settled those parts of China associated with the Xia and Shang civilizations.
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
During the Anyang-Shang period, the Qiang lived in Ch'iang Fang, a country to the west of Yin-Shang . The Qiang people were often referred to as the Ta Qiang "many Qiang", they were used as agricultural workers, and used in Yin-Shang ancestral rites as sacrifice victims.
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309). Although Negritos were also established in north and southern China by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the populations in North China and that in southern China and IndoChina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and Negroid-Oceanic respectively, both having evolved out of a common Upper Plestocene substratum as represented by the Tzu-yang and Liu-Chiang skulls.
In addition to Oceanic Blacks in Southeast Asia and southern China shortly before the Christian era Africoids of the Mediterranean type entered these areas by way of India. Much of the archaeology in southern China is related to the Southeast Asian patterns, with numerous finds of chipped stone of the type found in Szechewan,Kwangsi .Yunan and in the western part of Kwangtung as far as the Pearl River delta.( Chang, 1977, p.76. ) Neolithic culture of southern China as the people were parallel to southeastern development. It seems from the evidence that in China there were several major areas where the Neolithic way of life characterized by farming for food, use of pottery and the making of stone instruments.
In Southern China the most well known early cultures were the Ta-p'enK'eng culture of the southeastern coast, cultures dating to the 5th millenium. The Ta-p'en-K'eng sites have a chracteristic cord-marked pottery dating to before theird millennium. A radio- carbon date is available for this culture of 4450-4350 BC. The color of the pottery ranges from buff to dark brown, the principal shapes of the vessels are large globular jars and bowls. The people of this culture also made many stone sinkers and dugout canoes.There is believed to have been an early horticultural revolution in the tropical regions of southeast Asia, with the domestication of several cultigens. As in Africa this culture was Aqualithic with most of the people living on mounds and pilled houses. These horticulturalist ate aqualtic animals such as fish and shellfish, and grew root crops such as yam and taro .The Ta-p'en-K'eng site has provided much insight into their agricultural origins as indicated by the great variety of cord marks on the pottery demonstrates. The habi tat of the ancient people who made this ware at Ta-p'en-K' eng, was widespread in IndoChina and even in southern China and Japan. The Hoabinhian culture of Vietnam and that of Ta-p' en-K'eng, were characterized by cord-marked pottery which is identical in both places , and it is possible that the Yang -shao site at Huang Ho basin in North China may have also been founded by blacks in southern China who probably been the cultivation of rice . In the southeast southerners began at Hupeh and Kuangsi the cultivation of means of artificial irrigation and by terracing of the mountain slopes. These same Austronesians were already using bronze before the Chinese. The women's standing was high, she participated in the worship which consisted of a mountain and snake cults.There is evidence from the physical anthropologist that skeletons from Shantung and Kiangsu show resemblances to the Negroid type of southern Chinese rather than Mongoloid, especially at the intial Ch'ing-lien -Kang and Ma chia-pang phases. As a result of this evidence it seems that agriculture was widely practiced in Southeast Asia and China long before the full impact of farming was felt in the North among the Chinese.
Neolithic technology in south China is typified by hunting with the bow and arrow. The stone inventories include shoulder axes, as those found at Ya-an in Sikang, and the island of Hainan. The ceremics are characterized by the long persistence of corded red ware. There was also painted pottery,black pottery, stone knives and sickles and pottery tripods , styles that later were duplicated in bronze. The people practiced single burials the appearence of decapitated heads at many sites in China suggest war and the expansion of the Chinese southward.
In ancient times due to the Chinese being a nomadic group, they probably cremated their dead and learned to bury their dead from the Blacks. The southern Chinese probably had their own writing system at an early date considering the - fact that they were well known traders and most trader-groups developed a script to keep records, yet we can not be sure of this fact. Moreover, the appearance of similar pottery signs on South Chinese pottery and North Chinese pottery indicate a common ideology for both groups.
Many of the elements of southern Chinese cultures and the impliments found in this area and Southeast Asia show an interrelationship. The people who live in Southeast Asia today speak the Austro-Asiatic languages, which are closely related to the Austronesian group. As indicated by the languages of the aborigines Ta-p'en-K'eng sites are found spoke Austronesian languages, the cultures of these groups were also Austronesian according to Dr. Shun-sheng Ling .
As in the African aqualithic, an extensive mound culture existed in China, an area strectching from i ts plateau in the west to the Western coast of the Pacific ocean, it includes the Huang-Huai(the Yellow River and the Huai River) plain of North China and the plain of the lower valley of the Yangtze River of central China, these mounds lie in the Ancient line of the Austronesian habitation. In accordance with oral tradi tion and Chinese proto-history mounds were in existence during the time of Huangti, and Fu-Hsi as reflected in the legendary narrative of the burial of Tai-Hao at Wan Chiul - chiu.
The mound culture began around 3,000 BC in China 7,000 years after a similar cul ture had developed in central and North Africa, which moved step by step to the lower valley of the Yangtze River, starting originally from the lower valley of the Yellow River. By about 1200 BC, the people practiced agriculture and ate aquatic animals.At the Kiangsu Province mound site called the Hu Shu culture,the mounds were man-made knolls called 'terraced sites '. The mounds are flat on the top, here the people placed their dwellings. These mounds served three purposes i) burial mounds, ii) religious places (i.e.,high ground) and iii) habitation. The mounds are believed to have been introduced by the people to China from the Euphrates-Tigris valley who are believed to have introduced the arts .
In conclusion, the sindonty pattern is an African feature. C.G. Turner's research makes it clear that the early Americans were sindonty not sundonty (see: Turner, "Teeth and prehistory in Asia, Scientific American,(Feb.1989) 88-96), in fact he places the origin of these sindonty people in Northern China at Zhoukoudian Upper Cave. An African influence in the rise of man in this area is clearly supported by the archaeological, toponymic and linguistic evidence.
.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
@ Shania,
Cranial shape is just another physiological trait subject to the same principles of variation as any other trait. Nothing special about head shape.
@ Lioness,
You must understand that Hg DNA analysis just tells us at approximately when separation from a parent group occurred. That's all. If the groups have long separated but stayed in similar ecological environments there would be little surface change--as in the case of Africans and Andaman Islanders or Fijians.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Shania
quote:Since when have Melanesoid, Negroid and Oceanic/Australoid became synonymous ?
This is a silly question, if you read the literature you would know that Melanesians , Africans etc, have always been classified as negroes.
You don’t know you’re talking about. You must be very young. It was only recently that researchers begant to claim Africans, Melanesians and Australians were not related.
You fails to recognize that there is a craniometric difference between Australoids /Australians, Mongoloids and Melanoids; craniometric differences that indicate two migrations of the Black Variety into the Pacific. Tsuenehiko Hanihare discussed the phenotypic variations between these populations(1). Tsuenehiko classified these people into three major populations Southeast Asian Mongoloids (Polynesians), the Australians or Austroloid type and the Nicobar and Andaman (Melanoid) samples which he found lie between the predominately Southeast Asian and Australoid/Australian type (1).
The Australian aborigines and Melanesians show cranonical variates and represent two distinct Black populations(2). The Australoids or Australians live mainly in Australia and the highland regions of Oceania, the Melanoid people on the otherhand live in the coastal regions of Near Oceania and Fiji. D.J de Laubenfels discussed the variety of Blacks found in Asia. Laubenfiels explained that Negroids/Melanoids such as the Tasmanians are characterized by wooly black hair and sparse body hair (2). Australoids or Australians on the otherhand have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Other differences between these Black populations include Negroid / Melanoid brows being vertical and without eyebrow ridges, whereas Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges (2).
This led M. Pietrusewky to recognize two separate colonizations of the Pacific by morphologically distinct populations one Polynesian and the other Melanesian (3). Pietrusewky’s research indicates a clear separation between the Australian-Melanesian crania and the Polynesian crania (3). The findings indicate an origin for the Polynesians in Southeast Asia (3-5), and an early Australo-Melanesian presence in East Asia as discussed in the earlier comment.
Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya (2). This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics (4). This research indicates that whereas Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa, they fail to correspond to the Sahulland crania which are distinctly of Southwest Pacific or Melanoid affinity (2,4). This suggests that by the rise of Sahulland there were two distinct Black populations in Asia one Austroloid and the other Melanoid (4).
The Melanesian type does not appear in East Asia (Siberia) until after 5000 BC. This is thousands of years after Luizia and Eva Neharon had existed in Brazil and Mexico respectively.
By the Neolithic the Melanoids or Papuans are associated with millet cultivation at Yangshao and Lougshan according to Pietrusewky’s work (5). Tsang argues that the probable homeland of the Austronesian speakers was the Pearl River delta, here the Melanoid people cultivated millet (6). Sagart believes that there is a Proto-Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian family of languages based on the millet culture the Melanoids introduced to China (7).
The craniometrics make it clear the Melanesians and Australians have some differences but they were negroes.
Reference:
1. Tsunehiko Hanihare, Interpretation of craniofacial variations and diversification of East and Southeast Asia. In Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia. (Eds.) Marc Oxenhan and Nancy Tayles (pp.91-111). Cambridge, 2005.
2. D.J. Laubenfels, Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions. Annals Association of Am. Geographers, 58(1), 1968: 42-50.
3. Michael Pietrusewky, A multivariate craniometric study of the prehistoric and modern inhabitants of Southeast Asia, East Asia and surrounding regions:A human kaleidoscope. Cambridge Studies in Biological and Evolutionary Anthropology, No. 43, 2006: 59-90.
5. M. Pietrusewsky, The Physical anthropology of the Pacific, East Asia: A multivariate craniometric analysis. . In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology,Linguistics and Genetics (pp.201-229). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
6. Tsang Cheng-Hwa, Recent discoveries at Tapenkeng culture sites in Taiwan;Implications for the problem of Austronesian origins. In The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics ,(Eds) L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (pp.63-74). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
7. L. Sagart, Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian an Updated and improved argument. In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics (pp.161-176). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There are genetic markers which point to a relationship between Melanesians and Africans. For example, haplogroup V appears in New Guinea, while haplogroup IV has been found only in New Guinea, Near Oceania and Northwestern most Micronesia according to Merriwether et al., Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific, p.159, in SS Papilia, R. Deka & R. Chakraborty (Ed.), Genomic Diversity.In Cordaux et al.,Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India, Eur. J Hum Genet (2003)11(2):253-264, in figure 2 notes that Clusters X1 and X are found in Africa and the Pacific.
The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
The M clade is the best genetic marker of the connection between Africans and Melanesians. The M1 haplogroup is a member of the M macrohaplogroup. M1 is a sister haplogroup to Haplogroup D, one of the major Asian subgroups in Macrohaplogroup M.The M, N, and R macrohaplogroups are found throughout East and South and Southeast Asia, the Andaman Islands and Africa (Ingman et al, 2000, 2003;Macaulay et al, 2005; Tanaka et al, 2004) . Haplotypes with HVSI transitions defining 16129-16223-16249-16278-16311-16362; and 16129-16223-16234-16249-16211-16362 have been found in Thailand and among the Han Chinese (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002) and these were originally thought to be members of Haplogroup M1. However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, carriers of these markers have been found to be in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D , the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002). The transitions 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are known to be recurrent in various branches of Haplogroup M, especially M1 and D4.
Gonder et al for example, noted that the mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania.
There is evidence from Arabian M clades that support the migration of Melanesians from Africa to Melanesia.
Abu-Amero et al, Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula (2008)
quote:
However, as a few M1 haplotypes did not fit in the M1a1 cluster we did genome sequencing for two of them (Figure 2). Lineage 471 resulted to be a member of the North African clade M1b, more specifically to the M1b1a branch. As we have detected another M1b lineage in Jordan [38], it is possible that the Saudi one could have reached Arabia from the Levant or from northwest African areas. The second Saudi lineage (522) belongs to a subcluster (M1a4) that is also frequent in East Africa [37]. Recently, Tanzanian lineages have been studied by means of complete mtDNA sequences [39]. Three of these sequences also fall into the M1 haplogroup. Two of them belong to the Ethiopian M1a1 subclade (God 626 and God 635), and the third (God637) shares the entire motif that characterizes lineage M1a5 [37] with the exception of transition 10694. Therefore, this mutation should define a new subcluster M1a5a (Figure 2).
The lineages found in Tanzania further expand, southeastwards, the geographic range of M1 in sub-Saharan Africa. Inspecting the M1 phylogeny of Olivieri et al. [37] we realized that our lineage 957 [38] has the diagnostic positions 13637, that defines M1a3 and 6463 that defines the M1a3a branch. Therefore, we have placed it as an M1a3a lineage with an 813 retromutation (Figure 2). It seems that, likewise L lineages, the M1 presence in the Arabian Peninsula signals a predominant East African influence with possible minor introductions from the Levant.
Inclusion of rare Saudi Asiatic M sequences into the macrohaplogroup M tree.
The majority (12) of the 19 M lineages found in the Arabian Peninsula that do not belong to M1 [see Additional file 1] have matches or are related to Indian clades, which confirm previous results [30, 31]. In addition, in this expanded Saudi sample, we have found some sequences with geographic origins far away from the studied area. For instance, lineage 569 [see Additional file 1] has been classified in the Eastern Asia subclade G2a1a [40] but probably it has reached Saudi Arabia from Central Asia where this branch is rather common and diverse [41]. Indubitably the four sequences (196, 479, 480 and 494) are Q1 members and had to have their origin in Indonesia. In fact their most related haplotypes were found in West New Guinea [42]. All these sequences could have arrived to Arabia as result of recent gene flow. Particularly documented is the preferential female Indonesian migration to Saudi Arabia as domestic workers [43]. Five undefined M lineages were genome sequenced (Figure 3). It is confirmed that 5 of the 6 Saudi lineages analyzed have also Indian roots. Lineage 691 falls into the Indian M33 clade because it has the diagnostic 2361 transition. In addition, it shares 7 transitions (462, 5423, 8562, 13731, 15908, 16169, 16172) with the Indian lineage C182 [20], which allows the definition of a new subclade M33a. Lineage 287 is a member of the Indian M36 clade because it possesses its three diagnostic mutations (239, 7271, 15110). As it also shares 8 additional positions with the Indian clade T135 [20], both conform an M36a branch (Figure 3). Saudi 514 belongs to the Indian clade M30 as it has its diagnostic motif (195A- 514dCA-12007-15431). Lineage 633 also belongs to the related Indian clade M4b defined by transitions 511, 12007 and 16311. In addition it shares mutation 8865 with the C51 Indian lineage [20] that could define a new M4b2 subclade. We have classified sequence 551 as belonging to a new Indian clade M48 defined by a four transitions motif (1598-5460-10750- 16192) which is shared with the M Indian lineage R58 (Figure 3). Australian clade M42 [44] and New Britain M29 clade [24] also have 1598 transition as a basal mutation. However, they are respectively more related to the East Asia clade M10 [40] and to the Melanesian Q clade [27], as their additionally shared basal mutations are less recurrent than transition1598 [45].
All these Indian M sequences have been found in Arabia as isolated lineages that belong to clusters with deep roots and high diversity in India. Therefore, its presence in Arabia is better explained by recent backflow from India than by supposing that these lineages are footsteps of an M ancestral migration across Arabia.
The Saudi sequence 201 deserves special mention (Figure 3). It was previously tentatively related to the Indian M34 clade because both share the 3010 transition. However, it was stated that due to the high recurrence of 3010 most probably the 201 sequence would belong to a yet undefined clade [31]. The recent study of new Australian lineages [26] has allowed us to find out an interesting link between their Australian M14 lineage and our Saudi 201 sequence (Figure 3). The authors related M14 to the Melanesian clade M28 [24] because both share the 1719-16148 motif [26]. We think that the alternative motif shared with the Saudi lineage, 234-4216-6962, (Figure 3) is stronger, as 1719 and 16148 transitions are more recurrent than 234, 4216 and 6962 [45]. Therefore, we think that the last three mutations defined the true root of the Australian M14 clade and relate it to a Saudi Arab sequence.
This quote makes it clear that several Arabian clades correspond to genome found in New Guinea and Melanesia (e.g., clades 514, 201, 1719-16148 and etc.). The authors try to explain this to the recent introduction of Indonesian female workers to Saudi Arabia, an Indian backflow to Arabia and Australian camel herders. This explanation does not suffice since we know 1) Australian aborigines did not come to Saudi Arabia as camel herders and 2)Saudi Arabians are Wahabbis and rarely marry non-Arabs. They usually marry cousins.
Finally there is no documented Indian migration back into Arabia, nor is there a relationship between Arabic and the Dravidian languages. As a result, the idea of a backflow can not be supported.
On the otherhand, the evidence of Indian and African haplogroups in Arabia, would support the archaeological, linguistic and anthropological evidence supporting a recent migration of Dravidian speakers out of Nubia, into India.
As a result, the presence of these lineages in Saudi Arabia, must predate the 20th century and may relate to the migration of East Africans to Near Oceania, and Dravidian speakers to India in the past 4000 years since they are not related to ancient hg M lineages--lineages that would support the presences of these genomes in Arabia dating back to the first exit of AMH from Africa 60kya.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shania:
quote: The genotype data provides clear evidence of the phylogenetic relationship of Africans and East Asians. It is clear that African derived haplogroups R1b1, E, DE and R1b1b2 are found in East Asia. Y-haplogroup is found among many Chinese Muslims or Huis.
There is evidence of R1 in East Asia. Zhong et al 2011 reported a number of y-chromosome markers in East Asia including R1a1 29.41%0, R1b* 3.2%, R1b1b2 1.6% and R2 3.21%.
It is interesting to note that Zong et al 2011 tested for the M335 marker which was first discovered in Turkey and classified as R1b. The M335 marker is a brother clade to R1b1* M343+V88-M73-M269. This is interesting because R1b1* pursuant to ISOGG is R1b1 or V88.
R1b, R1a and their derivatives are mainly found in Europe, were the first Europeans black ? These haplogroups are associated with the spread of Indo-European languages, since they are found predominantly in Indo-European speaking populations.
The first Europeans were Black. Moreover R-1 is of African origin.
.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The African type can be traced to the African type that lived in China. This Negro type was characterized by sindonty...... .
you nigga trolls are insane if you honestly believe the legacies of the Chinese had anything to do with your sorry asses.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
what about these facts:
1) the Kushites invented wonton soup.
2) Clyde Winter's great grandmother invented fortune cookies in 1926.
isn't this proof of some kind?
.
Posted by funkcity1000 (Member # 19709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah):
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The African type can be traced to the African type that lived in China. This Negro type was characterized by sindonty...... .
you nigga trolls are insane if you honestly believe the legacies of the Chinese had anything to do with your sorry asses.
[ 21. December 2021, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Here is a better quality photo of a Nakhi woman from Yunnan province, china
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang.
The term li min means "black people". The term for peasant had nothing to do with li min.
The term for peasant comes from the tsung-jen character which is formed by a group of three men usually placed under a sun, signifying that they are working on the farm in the sun.
In later periods many Chinese writers began to called the tsung-jen character li min, so as to associate this sign with the ancient designation of the Shang and Xia people who were "black or Oceanic/African people", not yellow people "browned by the sun". The founder of the Shang Dynasty, was called Xuan Wang "Black King". There is also mention of another Shang leader called xuan mu "Black Oxen".
The Chinese classics make it clear that the Min Li, meant "Black people" not young Chinese or peasant Chinese. James Legge's, The Chinese Classics (London, 1865) supports this view. In reading Legge's translation of the "Shu King", we read that "In the Canon of Yao, we discover that Yu "…regulated and polished the people of his domain, who all became brightly intelligent. Finally, he united and harmonized the myriad States of the empire; and lo! The black haired people were transformed" (Legge, 1865, p.17). In this passage "min li is used to describe all the people in the Empire, not just the peasants or the young people.
In Book II, Chapter It was written that Kao yao "…with vigorous activity sowing abroad his virtue, which has decended on the black haired people, till they cherish him in their hearts" (Legge, 1865, pp.55-58). Again the term li min was applied to the people of the empire and not just a particular group.
The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
.
The founders of China's first civilizations came from the West (read any Chinese history and you will find this to be true). These people were African speakers who entered the country in rading their chariots.
Pygmy Blacks also lived in China in addition to the Xia and Shang Africans. The ancient pygmies lived in Shantun and Yunnan from K'aehua in the southeast to Yun Ch'ang in the Southwest.
In Shantung the pygmies were called ziao-yao ='Black Pygmies'. The term yao= 'deceptive, pgymy, not grown up'. The word ziao='burnt black in the fire, darkened by heat of fire or sun'.
The ziao-yao are mentioned in the Annals of the Bamboo Books : "In the 29th year of the Emperor Yao, in Spring the chief of the zio-yao came to the court and offered as a tribute feathers from Mot waters". Mot water was a marine plant, probably seaweed.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang.
The term li min means "black people". The term for peasant had nothing to do with li min.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In reading Legge's translation of the "Shu King", we read that "In the Canon of Yao, we discover that Yu "…regulated and polished the people of his domain, who all became brightly intelligent. Finally, he united and harmonized the myriad States of the empire; and lo! The black haired people were transformed" (Legge, 1865, p.17).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Book II, Chapter It was written that Kao yao "…with vigorous activity sowing abroad his virtue, which has decended on the black haired people, till they cherish him in their hearts" (Legge, 1865, pp.55-58).
Chinese woman
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
I don't think Clyde is saying Chinese are identical to Blacks. Of course not. HE seems to be saying that VARIANTS of Africans peoples entered the territory now known as "China" from very ancient time, to be joined later by peoples from other regions. The OOA migrations would support the presence of such Africoid peoples, whose appearance varies widely. Nor is anyone saying that today's Chinese are identical or look just like today's say West Africans (who themselves vary in looks).
Other data suggests that China was originally peopled not from cold climate regions but from the tropical south. Numerous centers of Chinese civilization appear in the tropical or sub-tropical zone immediately adjacent the tropical region.
Posted by Crush Black Lies (Member # 20324) on :
Simply amazing! Anyone or group with a trace of dark skin is qualified as "Black." Race is now solely determined by skin color. Y'all have gone off the deep end!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: I don't think Clyde is saying Chinese are identical to Blacks.
yes he is, no need for "Clyde Lite"
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
HE seems to be saying that VARIANTS of Africans peoples entered the territory now known as "China" from very ancient time, to be joined later by peoples from other regions. The OOA migrations would support the presence of such Africoid peoples.
All people have Afracoid ancestors and are are "VARIANTS" . You have stated before that "white people" are hybrids of Africans and East Asians. True or not that does agree with the fact that East Asians are more genetically divergent form Africans than are Europeans (and American Indians even more divergent)
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^Bogus strawman. The issues is not mere dark skin, but variants of peoples who may have been part of the OOA migrations. That such peoples would have appeared in what is now "CHina" is Science 101. They don't have to be identical to today's Chinese for the science to be true. And White America has throughout its history used people with a "trace of dark skin" to be "qualified as Black." That's nothing new in American social history. Now that CLyde, and others have flipped the script and applied the "one drop" rule in reverse across the board you are now crying?
And can't you be more creative on your new troll name? What? You think it is gonna build any more "traffic" for your thread?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^Bogus strawman. The issues is not mere dark skin, but variants of peoples who may have been part of the OOA migrations. That such peoples would have appeared in what is now "CHina" is Science 101. They don't have to be identical to today's Chinese for the science to be true. And White America has throughout its history used people with a "trace of dark skin" to be "qualified as Black." That's nothing new in American social history. Now that CLyde, and others have flipped the script and applied the "one drop" rule in reverse across the board you are now crying?
And can't you be more creative on your new troll name? What? You think it is gonna build any more "traffic" for your thread?
Instead of dismissing a bogus rule we'll just reverse it and it will fix the problem
the lionessa - aka Inriqa Corrado
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Iron, these are black people?
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: LOL! Yes my dearest Lionese Duncey. They are Muurs.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: I don't think Clyde is saying Chinese are identical to Blacks. Of course not. HE seems to be saying that VARIANTS of Africans peoples entered the territory now known as "China" from very ancient time, to be joined later by peoples from other regions. The OOA migrations would support the presence of such Africoid peoples, whose appearance varies widely. Nor is anyone saying that today's Chinese are identical or look just like today's say West Africans (who themselves vary in looks).
Other data suggests that China was originally peopled not from cold climate regions but from the tropical south. Numerous centers of Chinese civilization appear in the tropical or sub-tropical zone immediately adjacent the tropical region.
Correct I am not saying the contemporary Chinese are Blacks.
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. These ancient Blacks were either killed off or absorbed by later Chinese populations.
Like racist American whites in the South, the mongoloid Chinese of the Zhou and later periods would usually sacrifice a Qiang tribesman on holidays and for good luck.
5kya Africans began to enter China from two directions. The first group of Africans, who entered China were the founders of the Melanesian civilizations.
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China. They lived in Southern China where they built settlements on mounds situated near streams and rivers. These Africans spread megalithic structures throughout the Pacific. They were pushed out of China by the Mongoloid people and spread the Lapita culture from the mainland to the Islands.
The Second group to enter China 4kya were the Mande and Dravidian speaking people. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Dravidian and Asian Mande speaking branch usually settle many areas jointly. They first arrived in Iran and pushed their way first into Central and then East Asia. This view is supported by the Mande and Dravidian substratum in Mongolian and Chinese.
These people formerly belonged to the C-Group. They possessed chariots, were agro-pastoral people and used red-and-black ceramics.
The Asian Mande speaking people became Elamites and went on to found the Xia Dynasty. The Dravidians continued from Iran into the Indus Valley a separate group later migrated into China and founded the first Shang Dynasty.
I am saying that the founders of the Xia and Shang dynasty were Africans, originally from Elam. These populations would correspond to the Kushites of ancient times.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
''
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Lioness in the case of the De Medici's you have to be more specific.
Iron, Mike says Carlo de Medici wasn't Muur only He says only Alessandro de' Medici was half-Muur
Mike Alessandro de' Medici's moorish tendancies were no secret, his nickname was "Il Moro". Historians (such as Christopher Hibbert) believe he had been born to a mulatto servant who was working in the Medici household, identified in documents as Simonetta da Collevecchio. Contemporary references to Alessandro's dark skin, curly hair, wide nose and thick lips, as well as visual evidence from surviving portraits, suggest that he was indeed of mixed heritage.
Mike as you well know George Bush is also part Muur, look:
This is dubya after being cooped up for the winter:
^^^Looks a little lighter here
yet there's no conspiracy, there are both honest photos. Similarly you can't always assume that one picture of Alessandro looking slightly more Khoisan than another is necessarily a racial attempt to "San-itize" him. Likewise if a European painting was reproduced in a high quality book and when printed in a lower qulaity book where it came out darker than it actually was you would instantly deem it more authentic. -without ever having seen the original in the museum. Similarly if an artwork became darkened after hundreds of years of dust accumulting on it you would claim that restoring it to it's original condition would be "whitenizing it" Everything becomes a conspiracy in the paranoid/imaginative mind state
c. 1515 Oil on panel, 44 x 29 cm Museo Thyssen-Bornemisza, Madrid[/IMG]
by RAFFAELLO Sanzio (b. 1483, Urbino, d. 1520, Roma)
The young man painted here may be Alessandro de'Medici, illegitimate son of Lorenzo de'Medici, Duke of Urbino. If this is the case, the portrait can be dated to around 1515, that is to say the last decade of the artist's life - a date supported by the stylistic characteristics of the work.
Lorenzo II de' Medici father of Alessandro de' Medici
Also nicknamed "Il Moror" Ludovico Sforza (1452-1508) was the son of Francesco Sforza (1401-1466), the first member of the family to reign as Duke of Milan Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The term li min means "black people".
You can quote no book on Chinese history that would say that "li min" means Afracoid people or something beyond mongoloids with black hair (as was suggested in some of your book quotes, black haired)
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [qb] I don't think Clyde is saying Chinese are identical to Blacks. Of course not. HE seems to be saying that VARIANTS of Africans peoples entered the territory now known as "China" from very ancient time, to be joined later by peoples from other regions. The OOA migrations would support the presence of such Africoid peoples, whose appearance varies widely. Nor is anyone saying that today's Chinese are identical or look just like today's say West Africans (who themselves vary in looks).
Other data suggests that China was originally peopled not from cold climate regions but from the tropical south. Numerous centers of Chinese civilization appear in the tropical or sub-tropical zone immediately adjacent the tropical region.
Correct I am not saying the contemporary Chinese are Blacks.
The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks.
AGAIN, here are some Chinese "blacks" if you want to call them that, certainly as dark as many millions of AA's and even Africans
^^^Clyde these Chinese people even have dark skin. So if you want "blacks" here they are
And here's a Tibetan, call him "black" if you like. Even throw in swarthy white people if you like
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
They lived in Southern China where they built settlements on mounds situated near streams and rivers. These Africans spread megalithic structures throughout the Pacific. They were pushed out of China by the Mongoloid people and spread the Lapita culture from the mainland to the Islands.
_________^^^^ zarahan, this is total nonsense you support this ??
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Second group to enter China 4kya were the Mande and Dravidian speaking people. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Dravidian and Asian Mande speaking branch usually settle many areas jointly.
^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall? here, smoke some of this: Klide's Super Kush
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
The Asian Mande speaking people became Elamites and went on to found the Xia Dynasty. The Dravidians continued from Iran into the Indus Valley a separate group later migrated into China and founded the first Shang Dynasty. I am saying that the founders of the Xia and Shang dynasty were Africans, originally from Elam. These populations would correspond to the Kushites of ancient times.
have another hit I'm not stingy
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
They lived in Southern China where they built settlements on mounds situated near streams and rivers. These Africans spread megalithic structures throughout the Pacific. They were pushed out of China by the Mongoloid people and spread the Lapita culture from the mainland to the Islands.
_________^^^^ zarahan, this is total nonsense you support this ??
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Second group to enter China 4kya were the Mande and Dravidian speaking people. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Dravidian and Asian Mande speaking branch usually settle many areas jointly.
^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall? here, smoke some of this: Klide's Super Kush
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters
The Asian Mande speaking people became Elamites and went on to found the Xia Dynasty. The Dravidians continued from Iran into the Indus Valley a separate group later migrated into China and founded the first Shang Dynasty. I am saying that the founders of the Xia and Shang dynasty were Africans, originally from Elam. These populations would correspond to the Kushites of ancient times.
have another hit I'm not stingy
These are your opinions you have presented no evidence disputing anything I wrote.
The earliest people in the south were negro not mongoloid.
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic or negro type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309).
There were also pgymies in China.[b]Negritos were also established in north and southern China by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the populations in North China and that in southern China and IndoChina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and Negroid-Oceanic respectively, both having evolved out of a common Upper Plestocene substratum as represented by the Tzu-yang and Liu-Chiang skulls.
In addition to Oceanic Blacks in Southeast Asia and southern China shortly before the Christian era Africoids of the Mediterranean type entered these areas by way of India. Much of the archaeology in southern China is related to the Southeast Asian patterns, with numerous finds of chipped stone of the type found in Szechewan, Yunan and in the western part of Kwangtung as far as the Pearl River delta( Chang, 1977, p.76. ). Neolithic culture of southern China as the people were parallel to southeastern development . It seems from the evidence that in China there were several major areas where the Neolithic way of life characterized by farming for food, use of pottery and the making of stone instruments.
Please post evidence denying negroes were in China.
Please post evidence that the Chinese Chariots did not come from Elam.
Dr L. Wieger, in Chinese Characters(New York: Dover Publications,1965) gives the translation of li = ‘dark, dun color, or black’ (pg. 618). As a result, instead of reading ‘li’ as dark haired or 'yellow and a bit black' (whatever this is ??) it should be read ‘black’. Thus Chinese Characters Li Min = ‘Black People’.
Please post a dictionary source where li='black hair'.
Provide counter evidence or remain quiet.
.
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Also nicknamed "Il Moror" Ludovico Sforza (1452-1508) was the son of Francesco Sforza (1401-1466), the first member of the family to reign as Duke of Milan
Duncey
What is your point?
Sforza was of Moorish descend. His roots were in Africa, where cometh the Muurs.
He self-identified as a Moor. He was dark skined like a Moor.
You need to read a little bit better...
quote: Lodovico was called the Moor because of his complexion; he was very dark in colour and his origin derived from the original black Moors of Europe the first and only legitimate Kings. Contemporaries described him as the dark complected Ludovico the Moor. See Edgar Leoni, “Nostradamus and his Prophecies, by Nostradamus” p. 553.
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic or negro type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309).
Clyde, you are claiming that the bolded text above is a quote from the book making a general comment on the whole of China? and what does the pleistocene era have to do with the Shang dynasty or any period of Chinese civilization?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall?
CLyde never makes any claim about teaching the natives. You are spinning another strawman. Now, what evidence do you have against Clyde's theory? He has asked you at least twice.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall?
CLyde never makes any claim about teaching the natives. You are spinning another strawman. Now, what evidence do you have against Clyde's theory? He has asked you at least twice.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Chinese Civilization is of Recent African Origin
Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
If somebody makes up a theory like this the burden of proof is on them not for me to disprove any flight of fancy they might come up with
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
zarahan, watch this:
Clyde, was the Great Wall of China conceived by Africans?
__________________________
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic or negro type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309).
Clyde, you are claiming that the bolded text above is a quote from the book making a general comment on the whole of China? and what does the pleistocene era have to do with the Shang dynasty or any period of Chinese civilization?
This just shows the continuity of Black people in China from the pleistocene to the historic period.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: zarahan, watch this:
Clyde, was the Great Wall of China conceived by Africans?
__________________________
.
No. Black people would never have thought of such a stupid idea. The Wall never protected China, nomads simply took their armies to points where the wall was not contructed and enter China.
You must believe that the Chinese civlization is a monolithic civlization. This is a false idea, in the history of China different ethnic groups ruled China.
The unfying factor for China was the Mandarin language. This language was used by goverenment and gave China a lingua franca to unify the diverse nationalities that made up China in past and even today.
.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall?
CLyde never makes any claim about teaching the natives. You are spinning another strawman. Now, what evidence do you have against Clyde's theory? He has asked you at least twice.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Chinese Civilization is of Recent African Origin
Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
If somebody makes up a theory like this the burden of proof is on them not for me to disprove any flight of fancy they might come up with
LOL. This is not science.
In science you make a hypothesis or hypotheses with supporting evidence. If someone disagrees with the hypotheses, that scientist must present abundant evidence falsifying the hypotheses. Failure to falsify a hypothesis keeps the status of the hypothesis confirmed.
As a result, the burden of falsifying a hypothesis is on the researcher disagreeuing with the hypothesis.
LOL. you can't claim a hypothesis is "flight of fancy" until you disconfirm the hypothesis. This takes the researcher to provide counter evidence to disconfirm a statement all you are doing is expressing a personal opinion.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: ^^^^ zarahan, you with these ocean voyage fanatsies? The Mande taught the dumb primitive mongols how to build the great wall?
CLyde never makes any claim about teaching the natives. You are spinning another strawman. Now, what evidence do you have against Clyde's theory? He has asked you at least twice.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Chinese Civilization is of Recent African Origin
Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
If somebody makes up a theory like this the burden of proof is on them not for me to disprove any flight of fancy they might come up with
LOL. This is not science.
In science you make a hypothesis or hypotheses with supporting evidence. If someone disagrees with the hypotheses, that scientist must present abundant evidence falsifying the hypotheses. Failure to falsify a hypothesis keeps the status of the hypothesis confirmed.
As a result, the burden of falsifying a hypothesis is on the researcher disagreeuing with the hypothesis.
LOL. you can't claim a hypothesis is "flight of fancy" until you disconfirm the hypothesis. This takes the researcher to provide counter evidence to disconfirm a statement all you are doing is expressing a personal opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic or negro type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309).
Clyde, you are claiming that the bolded text above is a quote from the book making a general comment on the whole of China? and what does the pleistocene era have to do with the Shang dynasty or any period of Chinese civilization?
This just shows the continuity of Black people in China from the pleistocene to the historic period.
.
you are right Clyde. It is not science to talk about pleistocene hominid fossil of Oceanic or ??? Negro type and assume that represents a large population and assume there is continuity from that point all the way to the Shang dynasty.
Where is the "continuity" ??? You made it up. So why would I try to dissprove a continuity of which there is no evidence for or consider this puff of wishful thinking is "civilization" of some kind. Your thread title says of Recent African Origin" You shouldn't even be mentioning prehistoric pleistocene hominid fossils. That is not a hypothesis it's an empty bucket that the lioness is kicking
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
what megalith culture from what part of Africa to China? When did this transport take place? This transport from Africa idea flies in the face of this other unsuported continuity from the pleistocene theory
Further, within this multiple thousands of years span of time any people of the pleistocene who had originated as darker skinned or even African types of some sort (perhaps Khoisans) would have had time to transform by evolution to straight haired "Mongoloids" in prehistoric times, living in primitive villages, far before there was civilization.
But it's the same story you contrive over and over again. Blacks with afros from Africa sailed over in ships "recent origin"4-5000 years ago maybe with fancy blueprints on how to start a new civilization only for ignorant mongol savages to kill them and steal the civilization plans. the Clyde "formula" aka the whole world is one big Olmec head
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
. .
Yuehai Ke and Li Jin, et. al., African Origin of Modern Humans in East Asia: A Tale of 12,000 Y Chromosomes, Science, 292:5519, pp. 1151-1153, Issue of 11 May 2001.
. .
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: If somebody makes up a theory like this the burden of proof is on them not for me to disprove any flight of fancy they might come up with
LOL. This is not science.
In science you make a hypothesis or hypotheses with supporting evidence. If someone disagrees with the hypotheses, that scientist must present abundant evidence falsifying the hypotheses. Failure to falsify a hypothesis keeps the status of the hypothesis confirmed.
As a result, the burden of falsifying a hypothesis is on the researcher disagreeuing with the hypothesis.
LOL. you can't claim a hypothesis is "flight of fancy" until you disconfirm the hypothesis. This takes the researcher to provide counter evidence to disconfirm a statement all you are doing is expressing a personal opinion. [/qb][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic or negro type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309).
Clyde, you are claiming that the bolded text above is a quote from the book making a general comment on the whole of China? and what does the pleistocene era have to do with the Shang dynasty or any period of Chinese civilization?
This just shows the continuity of Black people in China from the pleistocene to the historic period.
.you are right Clyde. It is not science to talk about pleistocene hominid fossil of Oceanic or ??? Negro type and assume that represents a large population and assume there is continuity from that point all the way to the Shang dynasty.
Where is the "continuity" ??? You made it up. So why would I try to dissprove a continuity of which there is no evidence for or consider this puff of wishful thinking is "civilization" of some kind. Your thread title says of Recent African Origin" You shouldn't even be mentioning prehistoric pleistocene hominid fossils. That is not a hypothesis it's an empty bucket that the lioness is kicking
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
what megalith culture from what part of Africa to China? When did this transport take place? This transport from Africa idea flies in the face of this other unsuported continuity from the pleistocene theory
Further, within this multiple thousands of years span of time any people of the pleistocene who had originated as darker skinned or even African types of some sort (perhaps Khoisans) would have had time to transform by evolution to straight haired "Mongoloids" in prehistoric times, living in primitive villages, far before there was civilization.
But it's the same story you contrive over and over again. Blacks with afros from Africa sailed over in ships "recent origin"4-5000 years ago maybe with fancy blueprints on how to start a new civilization only for ignorant mongol savages to kill them and steal the civilization plans. the Clyde "formula" aka the whole world is one big Olmec head
LOL. You sure are dumb. As I said you only provide speculation.
Until the Sahara became a desert you find engravings of boats along now dried up rivers and megalakes and thousands of megaliths.This is evidence of the highly develop nautical and megalithic civilizations that formerly existed in Africa.
You're just jealous of the History of the Black man. Your people killed off millions of Blacks and Native Americans in the Americas and Pacific, for example the Tasmanians.
You are jealous because your history did not begin in Europe. So you steal the history of the Black Europeans, Sumerians and Egyptians to give yourselves a history where there is none.
There is too much blood on your hands to talk about stealing history. The entire history of Europeans is based on stealing civilizations and murdering the people they stole it from. This is your character today, just as it was yesterday.
LOL. You sure are dumb. As I said you only provide speculation.
Until the Sahara became a desert you find engravings of boats along now dried up rivers and megalakes and thousands of megaliths.This is evidence of the highly develop nautical and megalithic civilizations that formerly existed in Africa.
These Africans transported a megalithic culture to China.
Clyde if you are coming up with therories like this why are you accusing me of speculation? I have not even mentioned how civilization may have developed in China. What are the standard names of these "megalith cultures" in Africa that were transported to China? Where is your evidence that they were "transported to China" ?
^^^Here is a megalith in Africa. This is Chinese civilization? Pagodas, Chinese Temples, Chinese writing, Confusianism, none of this resembles African cultures,
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You're just jealous of the History of the Black man. Your people killed off millions of Blacks and Native Americans in the Americas and Pacific, for example the Tasmanians.
(I'm black but I'll play along...)
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You are jealous because your history did not begin in Europe. So you steal the history of the Black Europeans, Sumerians and Egyptians to give yourselves a history where there is none.
There is too much blood on your hands to talk about stealing history. The entire history of Europeans is based on stealing civilizations and murdering the people they stole it from.
.
what is the last approximate date give or take 100 years in which Europe was entirely black people with afros (or let's say 99% of the population was) ? thanks, lioness
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^ I cited specific reasons why the founders of Chinese Civilization were Black.
All you do is post opinions. Falsify my evidence outlined above. Or place a dunce hat on your head and sit in a CORNER.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] ^^ I cited specific reasons why the founders of Chinese Civilization were Black.
You mentioned Europe a moment ago. What is the last approximate date give or take 100 years in which Europe was entirely black people with afros (or let's say 99% of the population was) ? thanks, lioness
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] ^^ I cited specific reasons why the founders of Chinese Civilization were Black.
You mentioned Europe a moment ago. What is the last approximate date give or take 100 years in which Europe was entirely black people with afros (or let's say 99% of the population was) ? thanks, lioness
.
1800 BC, 2k years before the Santorini eruption . .
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Here is a better quality photo of a Nakhi woman from Yunnan province, china
There's a lot of misleading data here, with no Chinese scholar to encounter any of the claims.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
What misleading data are you talking about?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: What misleading data are you talking about?
I am speaking of the ethnography. Some of the migrating groups are clearly from Asia and show no genetic relations (by no proximity) to modern Black Americans as is claimed by some. There seem to be this rising confusion and claim that Black Americans are related to the Lapita culture and the Polynesians.
Waves of migration in the Southwest Pacific Pacific islanders today have been found to have ancestry from a mixture of lineages including Papuan, Australian and East Asian. David Reich and colleagues now report analysis of ancient genomic data from four individuals from Vanuatu and Tonga, South Pacific islands, representing the first ancient genomic data from Oceanian populations. Their analysis finds no evidence of Papuan ancestry in the early Remote Oceanians, suggesting that Papuan ancestry seen in contemporary Pacific islanders may reflect later migration.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: What misleading data are you talking about?
I am speaking of the ethnography. Some of the migrating groups are clearly from Asia and show no genetic relations (by no proximity) to modern Black Americans as is claimed by some. There seem to be this rising confusion and claim that Black Americans are related to the Lapita culture and the Polynesians.
Waves of migration in the Southwest Pacific Pacific islanders today have been found to have ancestry from a mixture of lineages including Papuan, Australian and East Asian. David Reich and colleagues now report analysis of ancient genomic data from four individuals from Vanuatu and Tonga, South Pacific islands, representing the first ancient genomic data from Oceanian populations. Their analysis finds no evidence of Papuan ancestry in the early Remote Oceanians, suggesting that Papuan ancestry seen in contemporary Pacific islanders may reflect later migration.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
