posted
Ummm - a lot of these people today wouldn't dare call themselves black or even African. Especially the Ouelad Nail who look more like the lighter skinned Mzabite in real life. Due to European colonialism Haratins and dark skinned Gnawa are treated horribly in Morocco, while descendants of European slaves, renegades and mercenaries think of themselves as indigenous non-black people. Samysamy on youtube being a prime example.
This is not to say all of north Africa is racist towards very black-skinned people, but northern Morocco and northern Egypt are not exactly the most welcoming places.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your choice of words are curious, like for example:
Perhaps the bit about calling themselves black is open to question, if not allowed some benefit of doubt, given that there are even folks in the African Horn who have reservations about calling themselves 'black', but the idea of being reluctant to call themselves 'Africans' on the other hand...? Is that to say that these folks equate "Africa" with "black"?
What's the deal about Ouelad Nail who look more like the lighter skinned Mzabite "in real life"? Are you of the mindset that the examples in the photos are those of imposters, or is something else at work?
Then, there is that matter about Haratins and "dark skinned Gnawa". Are they mentioned here, because you equate them with the personalities in the photos posted above, OR are you mentioning them to suggest that personalities, like those seen above, take a cue from the former's treatment, and hence would not associate themselves with 'blacks'?
On a side note: I noticed yet another image of a dark skinned Riffian. Some Eurocentric fanatics will insist that the dark personalities seen here are "sub-Saharan" Africans "hired" by the "real" Moroccans.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote: given that there are even folks in the African Horn who have reservations about calling themselves 'black'
Are you going to call them "knee gars" Explorer? If not, why? It is interesting to observe that you do not attack non-blacks in a racial manner, yet those whom you consider black are attacked in the most racially dispicable demonic ways.
quote: This is not to say all of north Africa is racist towards very black-skinned people, but northern Morocco and northern Egypt are not exactly the most welcoming places.
And you base this on what? Don't project what you have been told or written by whites in the U.S. onto other people around the world.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Ummm - a lot of these people today wouldn't dare call themselves black or even African. Especially the Ouelad Nail who look more like the lighter skinned Mzabite in real life. Due to European colonialism Haratins and dark skinned Gnawa are treated horribly in Morocco, while descendants of European slaves, renegades and mercenaries think of themselves as indigenous non-black people. Samysamy on youtube being a prime example.
This is not to say all of north Africa is racist towards very black-skinned people, but northern Morocco and northern Egypt are not exactly the most welcoming places.
(I offer this only because when I give North African history, it does not seem to sink in).
Producing too many Mulattoes, and then failing to keep them in their place, will ALWAYS lead to difficulty.
BTW - this is a power perception issue, not really a racial issue. The weak and backward ALWAYS want to identify with the rich and powerful.
Wiki
Raisuli
Mulai Ahmed er Raisuni (known as Raisuli to most English speakers, also Raissoulli, Rais Uli and Raysuni) (1871-April 1925) was the Sharif (descendant of Mohammed) of the Jebala tribe in Morocco at the turn of the 20th Century, and considered by many to be the rightful heir to the throne of Morocco. While regarded by foreigners and the Moroccan government as a brigand, some Moroccans considered him a heroic figure, fighting a repressive, corrupt government, while others considered him a thief. Historian David S. Woolman referred to Raisuni as "a combination Robin Hood, feudal baron and tyrannical bandit." He was considered by many as "The last of the Barbary Pirates".
Mulai Ahmed er Raisuni was born in the village of Zinat sometime in 1871. Due to his place of origin and his reportedly handsome visage, one of his other nicknames was "the Eagle of Zinat." He was the son of a prominent Caid, and began following in his father's footsteps. However, Raisuni eventually drifted into crime, stealing cattle and sheep and earning the ire of Moroccan authorities. He was also widely known as a womanizer.
By most accounts, the formative event in Raisuni's life was his arrest and imprisonment by Abd-el-Rahman Abd el-Saduk, the Pasha of Tangier, who was Raisuli's cousin and foster brother. The Pasha had invited Raisuni to dinner in his home in Tangier, only for his men to capture and brutalize Raisuni when he arrived. He was sent to the dungeon of Mogador and chained to a wall for four years; fortunately, his friends were allowed to bring him food, and he managed to survive. Raisuni was released from prison as part of a general clemency early in the reign of Sultan Abdelaziz - ironically, soon to become Raisuni's greatest enemy.
quote: FOLLOW THE MULATTOES!
Hassan I of Morocco - Father of Abdelaziz.
Moulay Hassan I of Morocco in Meknes in 1887
INTERESTING HOW WHITE MEDIA "TURNED" HIM WHITE!
Abdelaziz of Morocco
Mothers Name unknown, but it is known that she was a Circassian.
The Adyghe or Adygs, also often known as Circassians or Cherkess, are in origin a North Caucasian ethnic group who were displaced in the course of the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the 19th century, especially after the Russian–Circassian War of 1862. Adyghe people mostly speak Adyghe and most practice Sunni Islam.
A group of Adyghe children in traditional clothes.
Abdelaziz of Morocco
Abdelaziz of Morocco (1878–1943; also known as Mulai Abd al-Aziz IV, served as the Sultan of Morocco from 1894 at the age of sixteen until he was deposed in 1908. He succeeded his father Hassan I of Morocco. He was a member of the Alaouite dynasty.
Rule
Urged by his Circassian mother, the sultan sought advice and counsel from Europe and endeavored to act on it, but advice not motivated by a conflict of interest was difficult to obtain, and in spite of the unquestionable desire of the young ruler to do the best for the country, wild extravagance both in action and expenditure resulted, leaving the sultan with depleted exchequer and the confidence of his people impaired. His intimacy with foreigners and his imitation of their ways were sufficient to rouse fanaticism and create dissatisfaction.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Abdelhafid of Morocco reigned as the Sultan of Morocco from 1908 to 1912, as a member of the Alaouite Dynasty. His younger brother, Abdelaziz of Morocco, preceded him. Abdelaziz was considered by many in Morocco as a puppet of the French. He was backed by Madani al-Glaoui, older brother of T'hami one of the so called Lords of the Atlas. He was assisted in the training of his troops by Andrew Belton (Kaid), a British officer and veteran of the Second Boer War. For a brief period Abdelaziz reigned from Rabat while Abdelhafid reigned in Marrakech and Fez was disputed. In 1908 Abdelaziz was defeated in battle.
Abdelhafid's reign was unfortunate, to say the least. His only success would be the fact that he was able to arrest the pretender Bou Hmara in 1909.
(In the White and Mulatto world, the PURE Berber is a pretender).
Abdelhafid abdicated in favor of his brother Yusef after signing the Treaty of Fez on March 30, 1912, which made Morocco a French protectorate. He signed his abdication only when on the quay in Rabat, with the ship that would bring him to France already waiting. After an extended visit to France, where he received a great deal of attention from the press, he returned to Morocco and was exiled to the Dar el Makzhen (Sultanate Palace) in Tangier.
Yusef of Morocco
Sultan Yusef ben Hassan (1882–November 17, 1927) ruled the French Protectorate of Morocco from 1912 until his death in 1927. Born in the city of Meknes to Sultan Hassan I, he inherited the throne from his brother, Sultan Abdelhafid, who abdicated after the Treaty of Fez (1912), which made Morocco a French protectorate. He was a member of the Alaouite Dynasty. His mother was Lalla Ruqiya, fifth wife of his father - (a Turkish lady from Constantinople).
Yusef's reign was turbulent and marked with frequent uprisings against Spain and France. The most serious of these was a Berber uprising in the Rif Mountains, led by Abd el-Krim.
(This is a Berber!!! I don't think so!
Obviously a White misstatement of the facts).
Though this originally began in the Spanish-controlled area in the north of the country, it reached to the French-controlled area until a coalition of France and Spain finally defeated the rebels in 1925. To ensure his own safety, Yusef moved the court from Fez to Rabat, which has served as the capital of the country ever since.
Yusef's reign came to an abrupt end when he died suddenly of uremia in 1927. He was succeeded by his son Muhammad.
Mohammed V of Morocco
Mohammed V (10 August 1909 – 26 February 1961) was Sultan of Morocco from 1927–53, exiled from 1953–55, where he was again recognized as Sultan upon his return, and King from 1957 to 1961. His full name was Sidi Mohammed ben Yusef, or Son of (Sultan) Yusef, upon whose death he succeeded to the throne. He was a member of the Alaouite Dynasty.
On 20 August 1953, the French who were occupying Morocco at the time forced Mohammed V and his family into exile on Corsica. A relative of his, Mohammed Ben Aarafa, was placed on the throne. Mohammed V and his family were then transferred to Madagascar in January 1954. Mohammed V returned from exile on 16 November 1955, and was again recognized as Sultan after active opposition to the French protectorate. In February 1956 he successfully negotiated with France for the independence of Morocco, and in 1957 took the title of King.
Hassan II of Morocco
He decided to add a little "Color" with his second wife, Lalla Latifa.
posted
^But he went "Hog Wild" in the OTHER direction!
APPARENTLY - EVEN TO MULATTOES...
THERE IS SUCH A THING AS TOOOO WHITE!
Aniti-government protesters shout in a mass popular call to bring more democracy into Morocco.
A girl takes part in a rally organized by the 20th February, the Moroccan Arab Spring movement in Casablanca, Morocco, Sunday, June 12, 2011, in a mass popular call to bring more democracy into this North African kingdom.
RABAT, July 3, 2011 (AFP) - Faced with protests like those that ousted the leaders of Tunisia and Egypt and have shaken much of the Arab world, Morocco's King Mohammed VI made an unusual offer: concessions. And now that voters have massively backed a new constitution curbing his near absolute powers, analysts say the king will need to follow through on promises of democracy to his increasingly demanding people.
“The constitutional reform is an opening granted by the monarchy, a measured and controlled opening,” said Khadija Mohsen-Finan, a regional expert at the University of Paris. “It may seem enviable in comparison with the rest of the unmoving Arab world, but it is well below the demands of the streets,” she said. Mohammed VI, who in 1999 took over the Arab world's longest-serving dynasty, has faced demonstrations since February after the pro-democracy movement sweeping the region reached his country, the westernmost in north Africa.
Using websites such as Facebook and YouTube, the youth-based February 20 Movement has organised weeks of demonstrations that brought thousands to the streets calling for greater democracy, better economic prospects and an end to corruption. But from the beginning, analysts said, Morocco's Arab Spring uprising was different. “Some reforms were already underway in Morocco and there was a much bigger openness (to dissent) than in other countries,” said Mohamed Tozy, a political science professor at Casablanca's Hassan II University, noting that protests were largely allowed to go ahead without interference. “And of course the (protest) movement never questioned the legitimacy of the regime” by calling for the overthrow of the monarchy, he said.
Instead, protesters demanded a constitutional monarchy akin to those in Britain or Spain, with the king becoming the figurehead of a democratically elected government. As the protests grew, the king announced a new constitution under which he would remain head of state, the military, and the Islamic faith in Morocco, but the prime minister, chosen from the largest party elected to parliament, would take over as the head of government. Other changes would grant more power to parliament, introduce an independent judiciary and provide new guarantees of civil liberties. After a referendum campaign fiercely backed by authorities and in the media, more than 98 percent of voters approved the new constitution on Friday. The February 20 Movement, which had urged a boycott of the vote, immediately denounced the result as a fraud.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most of North Africa, just like Egypt, has had relatively small population sizes for a large part of its history primarily due to the Sahara desert limiting suitable areas for habitation. Depending on the historical time period, most of the population either came from the South, Across the Mediterranean or from the East. It is from the South that these areas were initially populated and continually refreshed for most of North Africa's history due to the various cycles of the Sahara wet/dry phases acting as a sort of pump of populations.
Only recently in say the last 40 years has Morocco's population REALLY taken off. In 1960 the population of Morocco was only about 10 million. Because of the relatively small size of the population prior to this, it was easy for Turkish and other invaders to have a tremendous impact on the population. If over 1million slaves were introduced to an area with less that 8 million people, then of course it will have an impact. And the Turks were well known for trafficking in Eastern European and Greek slaves. And this is on top of the earlier impacts of European blood from the Spanish expulsion of Moors and Jews along with other earlier European contacts. The population of Morocco is now 30 million plus. More than a 300% increase in 50 years. The Moorish era of Moroccan history is ancient history and many of the relics and monuments from this time are almost 800-1000 years old. Morocco had fallen far from the peaks of its civilization by the time of European interest during the 18th and 19th century. In fact, by the 19th century many of the famous monuments of Morocco from the Moorish era and after had fallen into disrepair. It was only as a result of foreigners into Morocco that a "renaissance" of sorts has taken place, where whites from Europe and America (and other places like Iraq and elsewhere) have come in and begun to refurbish and renovate a lot of the old monuments and riads (houses), to make hotels and guest suites for foreigners.
The Morocco of today is definitely not the Morocco of the Almoravids, as Morocco technically didn't exist and much of the population dynamics was centered on the flow of trade and people from the Sahara and points further south. In fact it was that trade with the south that was part of the reason for Morocco's wealth, including trade in gold and salt, among other things. Once that trade dried up, especially the domination of trade routes across the Mediterranean, Morocco fell into decay.
But yes, even 60 years ago, you could see a lot more blacks among the general population as the demographics have changed a lot over the last 50 years. And as relationships with Europe have improved, along with travel and trade, so to has an increase in the love and identification with European culture in many quarters. But one of the main factors in this disconnect between Morocco and the rest of Africa is partly due to the Arabization which occurred long ago and the fact that European historians, especially the French have done a lot to try and integrate these populations into a Pan European, Pan Mediterranean sphere of history, which of course plays up white skin and ignores Africans.
Page of Moroccan builders and renovators from Morocco:
If they moved to South or Central America you couldn't tell them apart from any of the various mulatto types there. But hey they share a similar heritage of mixed Spanish/African descent (latino), except for those in America having the added influence of Native American blood.
posted
The idea that North Africa represents Southern Europe or the Middle East or that the Desert was a barrier to so called "SSA" from North Africa is laughable.
Also the Idea that the blacks in present day North Africa are all the result of slaves is also laughable. What I find peculiar is that the same people who champion slaves "Darkening" North Africa are the same people who remain silent on North Africa's history of the Enslavement of Christian European Slaves. Lets not even count the Mamluk and Saqalibba slaves.
Here are more Images of Blacks from North Africa that don't represent slaves..
Morocco
Tanger
La Rââhbâ, grande lutte indigčne
Translates to something about the Native Great Struggle I think..
Moroccan family in front of his camp
Tangiers - Moorish girl
The native of Port Commander
Type de marocaine
Casablanca - Madame Sénégal et son petit
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Casablanca - Une marocaine modernisée
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
What are the above 19-20th century photos supposed to prove? Morocco has been invaded since 12th century BC. (Prior settlement also suggested by alTakruri)
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean) immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times
* the Phoenicians, a maritime people from the eastern Mediterranean who established trading posts on the northern coast of Africa in the 12th century B.C., * the Cathaginians who invaded and occupied the Phoenician settlements, * the Romans who, in the 2nd century B.C., ousted the Carthaginians, moved into the Berber kingdoms and dominated the African Mediterranean coast for nearly six centuries, * the Vandals in the 5th century A.D * Byzantium in the 6th century A.D.
-- but it wasn’t until the Arab invasion that the Christian and Pagan Berbers were converted to Islam. An Arab invasion of Morocco in AD682 marked the end of Byzantine dominance, and the first Arab rulers, the Idrisid dynasty, ruled for 150 years. Christian and pagan inhabitants of the land converted to Islam during this period. Arab and Berber dynasties succeeded the Idrisids; notably the Almoravids (1062-1147) and the Almohads (1147-1258).
Between 1062 and 1544 A.D., the Berbers once again ruled over Morocco with the exception of a brief period between 1212 and 1250 A.D. when the country was invaded by Spain and civil war broke out in between the Berber and the Arab factions.
* The Sanhaja Tribe, a nomadic people who settled in the Sahara desert and regions south of the Sahara, became the Almoravide Dynasty and ruled from 1062 until 1147 A.D. * The Masmoda Tribe, an agrarian people who settled in the Atlas Mountains, became the Almohade Dynasty and ruled from 1147 until 1258 A.D. * The Zenata Tribe, a horseback-riding nomadic people who settled in the cold, high plateau of the interior of the country, became the Merinide Dynasty and ruled from 1258 until 1544 A.D.
In 1544 A.D., the Arabs won their struggle for supremacy, and the descendants of the prophet Mohammed ruled Morocco until parts of the country and the Western Saraha came under Portuguese, Spanish and French influence in the 15th century.
.
* Saadian Dynasty ruled from 1544 until 1640 A.D. * Alaouite Cherifian Dynasty ruled from 1640 until coming under the rule of the
__________________________________________
As per the 1800s
Serving the Master: Slavery and Society in 19th Century Morocco
Amazon, Product description:
Mohammed Ennaji ( Professor at Université Mohammed V in Rabat, Morocco) brings to life a rich panoply of figures, with court cases, travel accounts, and archival documents, demonstrating the cruelty of an institution whose benign features some writers have overemphasized. In contrast to slavery in the Americas, he argues that only a fine line separated the fluid categories of slave and free, and he reveals how slaves’ dependence on their masters paralleled free Moroccans’ dependence on patrons for survival and social mobility. No other book on slavery in the Islamic world has treated the Muslim west, and no other book has examined the variety and extent of sources that Ennaji does in such a context here. Muslim Slavery offers a clear, readable history that tells the devastating story of slavery in this region, and uses slavery’s gradual disappearance in this century as a metaphor for Morocco’s move into modernity.
Chapter One
Slaves in Society
"Aha! Here are the real Moors!" exclaimed the servant to his master in Dumas's Le Batard de Mauleaon: "Look how black they are!" For centuries the European imagination figured the Moors as unholy, hideous, demonic and black. Accustomed to such images. European travelers disembarking in Barbary expressed their surprise on finally seeing the race thus maligned. "They are not naturally black. despite the proverb, and as many writers think", wrote Abbe Poiret an eighteenth-century French traveler to North Africa. "They are born white, and stay white all their lives, when their work does not ex[pose them to the strength of the sun's ray's. Plenty of Blacks do live among them, but they come from other regions, and serve the Moors as slaves"
____________________________________________
More cherry picked picture book floppery from Mike111 -actually his revisionist history unwittingly serves to cover up exploitation of Africans in the 1800, reminiscent of Libyan rebels treatment of our folks today
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Doug, A nit point: an increase from 10 million to 30 million in 50 years looks like a 200% increase not 300%. But an interesting read.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Over the past 200 years or so, millions upon millions of Europeans have moved to North Africa, behind the bayonets of their soldiers, looking to steal other peoples land.
Italy invaded Libya 1911 - 1951
FRANCE INVADED ALGERIA - 1830-1962
Tunisia In 1900, the estimated population of Tunisia was 1,960,000. Today the French, Italian, and other European immigrants have swelled that number to 10,000,000.
But when the Mulatto and Quadroon descendants of their former countryman seek to return, they are stopped by quotas.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another often overlooked aspect of the French and European colonization of North Africa is the overwhelming amount of prostitution that occurred under the colonial administrations. White folks were obsessed with having access to "exotic" p-tang. And the colonial French administration did a lot to promote this interaction. A lot of the mixing took place because of this in the period from the late 1800s to WWII. In fact, when the Americans landed in Morocco as part of the effort to kick the Germans out of North Africa they had to fight the French first.
French artists like Etienne Dinet are a good example of the European appetite to see nude North African women and he is the one who made the Oued Nail tribe famous. But if you look at his work most of these women are mulattoes, quite possibly European/African mulattoes. And then you have the famous postcards produced at the turn of the century featuring half nude or nude girls from Algeria and Tunisia. All of which were part of the colonial program to promote native North African women as sex objects for the European mind.
And this legacy still exists to this day, as Morocco is still known for its prostitution. And white attraction to these women is still prevalent. One only needs to look at the case of the Italian President Silvio Burlesconi and the Moroccan "dancer". Mohammed Choukri was a Moroccan writer who was known for growing up in an environment with prostitution.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Another often overlooked aspect of the French and European colonization of North Africa is the overwhelming amount of prostitution that occurred under the colonial administrations. White folks were obsessed with having access to "exotic" p-tang. And the colonial French administration did a lot to promote this interaction. A lot of the mixing took place because of this in the period from the late 1800s to WWII. In fact, when the Americans landed in Morocco as part of the effort to kick the Germans out of North Africa they had to fight the French first.
French artists like Etienne Dinet are a good example of the European appetite to see nude North African women and he is the one who made the Oued Nail tribe famous. But if you look at his work most of these women are mulattoes, quite possibly European/African mulattoes. And then you have the famous postcards produced at the turn of the century featuring half nude or nude girls from Algeria and Tunisia. All of which were part of the colonial program to promote native North African women as sex objects for the European mind.
And this legacy still exists to this day, as Morocco is still known for its prostitution. And white attraction to these women is still prevalent. One only needs to look at the case of the Italian President Silvio Burlesconi and the Moroccan "dancer". Mohammed Choukri was a Moroccan writer who was known for growing up in an environment with prostitution.
If there was any mixing in Colonial times. It would be European males with Moroccan women. We can get some some idea of the extent to which this happened by analyzing the frequency of European Haplotypes in Morocco. As far as I know the presence of European Y dna remains very small. And Ruby Rubacuori is basically a Mediterranan woman not much different form a Southern Italian or Spaniard. Also Morocco has been known for forcing Sub Saharan women into prostitution even to this day, meaning some of the folks in those photos are not likely native Moroccans.
"Morocco does not encourage victims to participate in investigations against their traffickers. Some victims reportedly testified but were subsequently deported. Sub-Saharan African women who are forced into prostitution in Morocco were not likely to report crimes for fear of being deported. NGOs provided most services to domestic victims of trafficking. Undocumented migrants – some of whom may have been trafficking victims – reportedly suffered physical abuse at the hands of Moroccan police. Government-operated Child Protection Units in Casablanca and Marrakesh offered assistance to street children and other victims of violence, abuse, and sexual exploitation, possibly including victims of trafficking". Morocco". Trafficking in Persons Report 2010. U.S. Department of State
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [QUOTE]If there was any mixing in Colonial times. It would be European males with Moroccan women. We can get some some idea of the extent to which this happened by analyzing the frequency of European Haplotypes in Morocco. As far as I know the presence of European Y dna remains very small.
.
melchior7 - Are you really THAT stupid, or are you just trolling?
HERE IS A EUROPEAN GENE TABLE - MAKE YOUR CASE!
Please give your source for any statement that you might make - idiot!Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please give your source for any statement that you might make - idiot!
I don't know why you psoted the above table.
At least 80% of Magrebian Y dna is of the E variety. Your colonial powers France and Spain tend to be R1b and I which are much less common in North Africa. And no I'm not going to look for back up on google as everybody already knows this. Concede this fact or go take a seat in the back of the class... My class chump! Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
With regard to the original topic of this thread, while many of the pictures posted are very engaging it should be noted that many pictures of musicians are likely Gnawa from the sub Sahara as are many soldiers and courtesans. The French have documented much of what went on in Morocco since the days of colonization.
"De Lens’s also disguised the evils of female domestic slavery,about which the Frenchwoman learned first hand from her adoptive children. The sociologist Edouard Michaux-Bellaire believed that the Moroccan slave trade expanded as a result of French occupation. When French troops cut supplies of enslaved women to Morocco from sub-Saharan Africa, slave raiders turned on Berber families in the Sus region to steal young girls. The Residence turned a blind eye to this “veritable business” flourishing in the political anarchy of southern Morocco" http://www4.uwm.edu/letsci/history/faculty/upload/amster_harem-revealed-3.pdf
Additionally many of the photos in the OP are the result of carefull selection and do not give a true account of what many Moroccans looked like. Here are some more from the same site for a broader persective.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: An interesting observation:
Ref. The Spanish and French in Morocco.
Over the past 200 years or so, millions upon millions of Europeans have moved to North Africa, behind the bayonets of their soldiers, looking to steal other peoples land.
Italy invaded Libya 1911 - 1951
FRANCE INVADED ALGERIA - 1830-1962
Tunisia In 1900, the estimated population of Tunisia was 1,960,000. Today the French, Italian, and other European immigrants have swelled that number to 10,000,000.
But when the Mulatto and Quadroon descendants of their former countryman seek to return, they are stopped by quotas.
Muslim Africans do not think in terms of colour. The Moroccan elite is brown of complexion. Bill boards in the north show a white skinned Mohamed VI In the south he looks brown. He is brown Human Races were invented to give whites human status. You have Djehuti all over you with this thread, all his twenty nicks: lucky you
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Please give your source for any statement that you might make - idiot!
I don't know why you psoted the above table.
At least 80% of Magrebian Y dna is of the E variety. Your colonial powers France and Spain tend to be R1b and I which are much less common in North Africa. And no I'm not going to look for back up on google as everybody already knows this. Concede this fact or go take a seat in the back of the class... My class chump!
So basically you talk out of your ass, and when confronted, claim to be above providing support for your bullsh1t.
posted
^melchior7: Here is how serious people do it Albino boy:
I posted this picture on Egmonds thread.
Below is how I support the picture: not with what I say, but rather, with ACTUAL history.
Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports. Although the methods varied, privateering generally involved private vessels raiding the ships of an enemy in peacetime under the authority of a ruler. Its purposes were to disrupt an opponent's trade and to reap rewards from the captives and cargo.
These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.
Privateering was a highly disciplined affair conducted under the command of the rais (captain) of the fleets. Several captains became heros in Algerian lore for their bravery and skill. The captains of the corsairs banded together in a selfregulating taifa (community) to protect and further the corporate interests of their trade. The taifa came to be ethnically mixed, incorporating those captured Europeans who agreed to convert to Islam and supply information useful for future raids. The taifa also gained prestige and political influence because of its role in fighting the infidel and providing the merchants and rulers of Algiers with a major source of income. Algiers became the privateering city-state par excellence, especially between 1560 and 1620.
In 1510 Tripoli Libya was taken by Don Pedro Navarro, Count of Oliveto for Spain, and in 1523, it was assigned to the Knights of St. John, who had lately been expelled by the Ottoman Turks from their stronghold on the island of Rhodes. The knights kept the city with some trouble until 1551, when they were compelled to surrender to the Ottomans, led by Greek Muslim Turgut Reis. After the capture by the Ottoman Turks, Tripoli once again became a base of operation for Barbary pirates.
In 1711 Ahmed Karamanli killed the Ottoman governor, the "Pasha", and established himself as ruler of the Tripolitania region. By 1714 he had asserted a sort of semi-independence from the Ottoman Sultan, heralding in the Karamanli dynasty. In 1835, the Ottoman Empire took advantage of an internal struggle and re-established its authority.
European maritime powers paid the tribute demanded by the rulers of the privateering states of North Africa (Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli, and Morocco) to prevent attacks on their shipping by corsairs. No longer covered by British tribute payments after the American Revolution, United States merchant ships were seized and sailors enslaved in the years that followed independence. In 1794 the United States Congress appropriated funds for the construction of warships to counter the privateering threat in the Mediterranean. Despite the naval preparations, the United States concluded a treaty with the dey of Algiers in 1797, guaranteeing payment of tribute amounting to US$10 million over a twelve-year period in return for a promise that Algerian corsairs would not molest United States shipping. Payments in ransom and tribute to the privateering states amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.
The Napoleonic wars of the early nineteenth century diverted the attention of the maritime powers from suppressing what they derogatorily called piracy. But when peace was restored to Europe in 1815, Algiers found itself at war with Spain, the Netherlands, Prussia, Denmark, Russia, and Naples. In March of that year, the United States Congress authorized naval action against the Barbary States, the then-independent Muslim states of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli. Commodore Stephen Decatur was dispatched with a squadron of ten warships to ensure the safety of United States shipping in the Mediterranean and to force an end to the payment of tribute. After capturing several corsairs and their crews, Decatur sailed into the harbor of Algiers, threatened the city with his guns, and concluded a favorable treaty in which the dey agreed to discontinue demands for tribute, pay reparations for damage to United States property, release United States prisoners without ransom, and prohibit further interference with United States trade by Algerian corsairs. No sooner had Decatur set off for Tunis to enforce a similar agreement than the dey repudiated the treaty. The next year, an Anglo-Dutch fleet, commanded by British admiral Viscount Exmouth, delivered a punishing, nine-hour bombardment of Algiers. The attack immobilized many of the dey's corsairs and obtained from him a second treaty that reaffirmed the conditions imposed by Decatur. In addition, the dey agreed to end the practice of enslaving Christians.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Illiteracy abounds on this forum. Had you taken the time to read my post I made it clear that I was showing blacks of Morocco, no where did I say I was showing every Moroccan, so of course my slection was "Careful"
Here are more Images of Blacks from North Africa that don't represent slaves..
Notice I said "Of Blacks" before posting my images, If I wanted to show all North Africans or non blacks I would have specified as such in my post.-Its called reading comprehension.
But I get it it hurts your agenda and beliefs to see images of black North African Indigenees, you must always squeeze other folks in their to satisfy your Eurocentric belief system that North Africa was an extension of Southern Europe.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Additionally many of the photos in the OP are the result of carefull selection and do not give a true account of what many Moroccans looked like. Here are some more from the same site for a broader persective.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I feel its useful to find out if a person self identifies as Black, instead of people from the outside deciding who is Black. I especially hate the skull measuring people.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Illiteracy abounds on this forum. Had you taken the time to read my post I made it clear that I was showing blacks of Morocco, no where did I say I was showing every Moroccan, so of course my slection was "Careful"
Here are more Images of Blacks from North Africa that don't represent slaves..
Notice I said "Of Blacks" before posting my images, If I wanted to show all North Africans or non blacks I would have specified as such in my post.-Its called reading comprehension.
But I get it it hurts your agenda and beliefs to see images of black North African Indigenees, you must always squeeze other folks in their to satisfy your Eurocentric belief system that North Africa was an extension of Southern Europe.
How do you know that the images of Blacks you posted are not descendants of slaves? Moroccan history is rife with stories of Blacks by the thousands being brought from the Sub Sahara to serve in the military etc. There is no problem with my reading comprehension son. I categorically deny that any of your images represent indiginous Moroccans, as it were. To this day most Moroccans would not think of the examples in your post as native Moroccans but foreigners. Most Blacks in Morocco will tell you they are originally from Sub Sahran africa. So how does that jibe with your views? Is there some fantastic conspiracy going on or what?
And I don't think that North Africa is an extension of Southern Europe since in terms of language, culture and religion they are obviously distinct. What I said to Explorer was that if it were not for the spread fo Islam, North Africa would likely be a part of the Western world..majority Christian, with a Greco-Roman based culture. Remember North Africa was once part of the Roman empire just like France or Spain. The region would likely have evolved under similar lines if not for Islam. In fact the notion of Europe as we think of it Today would probably have little meaning, and Southern Europe would probably be reffered to as the Northern Mediterranean and North Africa as Southern Medtiterranean. And yes phenotypically many North Africans do look similar to Southern Europeans, if that is what you are on about. Bottom line is that North Africa especially with regard to Egypt has alwasy been a major player in the Old world(read Mediterranan). Cultural elements, traditions and world changing concepts have traveresed back and forth across the Mediterranan while Sub-Sahran Africa for the most part, has remained isolated from all of this. So given the historic narrative, and shared cultural antecedents with Europe, not to mention the stricking difference in phenotype, it makes perfect sense to view North Africa as a separate entity from parts further south. You also would agree if only you could keep your feelings out of this. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
Privateering was an age-old practice in the Mediterranean. North African rulers engaged in it increasingly in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century because it was so lucrative, and because their merchant vessels, formerly a major source of income, were not permitted to enter European ports. Although the methods varied, privateering generally involved private vessels raiding the ships of an enemy in peacetime under the authority of a ruler. Its purposes were to disrupt an opponent's trade and to reap rewards from the captives and cargo.
These Pirates destroyed thousands of French, Spanish, Italian and British ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, pirates captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million Europeans as slaves, mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain, and Portugal, but also from France, Britain, the Netherlands, Ireland and as far away as Iceland and North America.
Privateering was a highly disciplined affair conducted under the command of the rais (captain) of the fleets. Several captains became heros in Algerian lore for their bravery and skill. The captains of the corsairs banded together in a selfregulating taifa (community) to protect and further the corporate interests of their trade. The taifa came to be ethnically mixed, incorporating those captured Europeans who agreed to convert to Islam and supply information useful for future raids. The taifa also gained prestige and political influence because of its role in fighting the infidel and providing the merchants and rulers of Algiers with a major source of income. Algiers became the privateering city-state par excellence, especially between 1560 and 1620.
In 1510 Tripoli Libya was taken by Don Pedro Navarro, Count of Oliveto for Spain, and in 1523, it was assigned to the Knights of St. John, who had lately been expelled by the Ottoman Turks from their stronghold on the island of Rhodes. The knights kept the city with some trouble until 1551, when they were compelled to surrender to the Ottomans, led by Greek Muslim Turgut Reis. After the capture by the Ottoman Turks, Tripoli once again became a base of operation for Barbary pirates.
In 1711 Ahmed Karamanli killed the Ottoman governor, the "Pasha", and established himself as ruler of the Tripolitania region. By 1714 he had asserted a sort of semi-independence from the Ottoman Sultan, heralding in the Karamanli dynasty. In 1835, the Ottoman Empire took advantage of an internal struggle and re-established its authority.
So are you arguing that the light phenotype in North Africa comes from European colonialists banging native women (for which there is little genetic evidence), or from North Africans having their way with enlslaved European women?? Or are you just crapping all over the place?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^melchior7 - Sometimes I think that you are really trying, so perhaps I should act accordingly.
The activities of people are rarely neat and clean, thus "True history" is rarely neat and clean. So "Crapping all over the place" is probably a good analogy.
BTW - since the White man has not seen fit to produce an honest comprehensive genetic study of the area, an understanding of the history, and a common sense understanding of human behavior is essential.
As an example: many northern Europeans are hg "I". This occurred because "Whole Germanic Tribes" were moving west, and Black males were taking the females.
In north Africa, at first, it was conquering armies coming in. Thus logically (in the majority), they would have been taking Berber females. But after they had established their own settlements and territories, and brought in THEIR females, then it would be more of a two-way street.
Later, during the Privateering period, it would have been strictly one-way, with Berber pirates banging their prisoners - who were NOT necessarily White!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic