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We've already discussed this before but we never had any thorough conclusion on which specific phenotype that Keita is referring too, since having a phenotype thats intermediate between tropical Africans and North Europeans could be anything. I have some guesses:
Thats seems close to intermediate between Northern Europeans and tropical Africans or what does anyone else have to input or say?
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As I've said every time this topic comes up, Keita's "Coastal North African" pattern is a reference to the inclination of these series to lie in between tropical African and northern European series by means of centroid scores.
Why do they occupy such positions on plots of centroid scores? It could be because there is a mix of "tropical African" and "northern European" patterns in the samples under study, and/or it could be that said samples actually contain specimens that feature "intermediate" cranial traits obtained from the genetic exchange of two or more divergent inbreeding populations, or yet--not to be dismissed--environmental happenstance.
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: As I've said every time this topic comes up, Keita's "Coastal North African" pattern is a reference to the inclination of these series to lie in between tropical African and northern European series by means of centroid scores.
Why do they occupy such positions on plots of centroid scores? It could be because there is a mix of "tropical African" and "northern European" patterns in the samples under study, and/or it could be that said samples actually contain specimens that feature "intermediate" cranial traits obtained from the genetic exchange of two or more divergent inbreeding populations, or yet--not to be dismissed--environmental happenstance.
Why Northern European??? Do many think that everyone who isn't tropical African or Northern European must be mixed?? Lol. People changed as they migrated. Mediterranean people came first. Then Northern Europeans as folks traveled further North. Northen Europeans are the european EXTREME.
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: As I've said every time this topic comes up, Keita's "Coastal North African" pattern is a reference to the inclination of these series to lie in between tropical African and northern European series by means of centroid scores.
Why do they occupy such positions on plots of centroid scores? It could be because there is a mix of "tropical African" and "northern European" patterns in the samples under study, and/or it could be that said samples actually contain specimens that feature "intermediate" cranial traits obtained from the genetic exchange of two or more divergent inbreeding populations, or yet--not to be dismissed--environmental happenstance.
His says this pattern is a metric phenotype and as we know a pattern that falls in between Northern European and tropical African could be anything although Keita doesn't specify which one this phenotype lies closest too.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This topic was discussed all too many times before, more recently here.
One thing is for sure, Keita's coastal North African type does NOT entail MODERN coastal Egyptians who are of obvious foreign ancestry.
Though no doubt DaHoslips thinks it does! LOL
It's pretty sure they looked more like they still look than like sub-saharans look.
^^^Obviously all the same race.
Does not equal:
I agree. The depictions the Egyptians made are quite clear. Most looked Middle Eastern but some would have been considered Black as well.
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Why Northern European??? Do many think that everyone who isn't tropical African or Northern European must be mixed?? Lol.
You are reading something into my post that wasn't there to begin with.
quote: People changed as they migrated. Mediterranean people came first. Then Northern Europeans as folks traveled further North. Northen Europeans are the european EXTREME.
You said it yourself, the northern Europeans who represent the "European Extreme". It is because of this, they are invoked. The pattern breaks between coastal north Africans and southern Europeans right across the sea is going to be less clear cut, because they'd exchanged genes with north Africans much more so than the northern Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
His says this pattern is a metric phenotype and as we know a pattern that falls in between Northern European and tropical African could be anything although Keita doesn't specify which one this phenotype lies closest too.
You are saying that Keita isn't treating it as a "pattern" but "a metric phenotype". Then you should know what "metric phenotype" he is referring to when he says "coastal north African", shouldn't you?
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Why Northern European??? Do many think that everyone who isn't tropical African or Northern European must be mixed?? Lol.
You are reading something into my post that wasn't there to begin with.
quote: People changed as they migrated. Mediterranean people came first. Then Northern Europeans as folks traveled further North. Northen Europeans are the european EXTREME.
You said it yourself, the northern Europeans who represent the "European Extreme". It is because of this, they are invoked. The pattern breaks between coastal north Africans and southern Europeans right across the sea is going to be less clear cut, because they'd exchanged genes with north Africans much more so than the northern Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
His says this pattern is a metric phenotype and as we know a pattern that falls in between Northern European and tropical African could be anything although Keita doesn't specify which one this phenotype lies closest too.
You are saying that Keita isn't treating it as a "pattern" but "a metric phenotype". Then you should know what "metric phenotype" he is referring to when he says "coastal north African", shouldn't you?
No thats not what I said or was trying to say, but nonetheless it is still hard to pin down exactly what is a coastal African phenotype with a cranio-emtric pattern intermediate between tropical Africans and Northern Europeans. Note: tropical Africans could be either the broad trend or elongated type.
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You said it yourself, the northern Europeans who represent the "European Extreme". It is because of this, they are invoked. The pattern breaks between coastal north Africans and southern Europeans right across the sea is going to be less clear cut, because they'd exchanged genes with north Africans much more so than the northern Europeans.
Ok. So what exactly is your belief about North Africans I haven't had time to read everybody posts. I know some believe that in Historic times they were tropical Blacks up the fall of the Moors. Myself I believe they have been "intermediate" since prehistoric times as migrations to and from the Europe and the Middle East were not infrequent.
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Charles, But that is what I'm trying to convey here; he is not treating the "coastal north African" as a certain "phenotype". The pattern is a reference to the inclination of the northern African series to assume "intermediate" positions in a plot of centroid scores. These centroids do not divulge the specimen phenotypes of the series involved, just their average position.
Putting that aside, Keita does give an indication of what the Maghrebi pattern entails, which is part of his "coastal North African" pattern. He implies that there are both "tropical African" and "northern European" cranial patterns present in them, along with what I interpreted as "hybrid" elements. The Egyptians series, especially the Sedment series, were considered different from the Maghrebi series.
For interested parties, I'd discuss this on my blog: Link.
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Ok. So what exactly is your belief about North Africans I haven't had time to read everybody posts. I know some believe that in Historic times they were tropical Blacks up the fall of the Moors. Myself I believe they have been "intermediate" since prehistoric times as migrations to and from the Europe and the Middle East were not infrequent.
The Egyptian patterns have to generally be treated differently from the Maghrebi patterns. Human paleontology in the Maghreb tells us that humans had been living there way longer than even before Europe or the "Near East" were populated by modern humans. There is such a thing as the Maghrebi pattern, which is distinct from the European one--even the southern European ones, if Brace et al. (2005) are to be taken at their word. From this paleontological record, I get the sense that there was an initial Neolithic local "Maghrebi" pattern that subsequently got influenced by populations neighboring them, both to their south and north. There may have been some influence from the "Near East" and Iberia [assuming that they were seafarers then] during the Neolithic, but I'm of the mindset that much of the European ancestry [mostly maternal] is of a more recent extraction than prehistoric.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: [QB] Keita's Coastal North African phenotype revisited:
We've already discussed this before but we never had any thorough conclusion on which specific phenotype that Keita is referring too, since having a phenotype thats intermediate between tropical Africans and North Europeans could be anything.
How far back in time would such an intermediate phenotype date to and does ancient Egypt which has coastal borders include these phenotype?
Explorer, please wait for Charlie's answer first.
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Everyone should keep in mind that the "tropical African" samples Keita used in his studies are predominantly of the Broad "True Negro" phenotype. For all we know, a study using narrower-featered Northeast Africans like Ethiopians or Somalis could could have had the northern Egyptians cluster with them so that they don't appear so "intermediate" between Africans and Europeans.
Anyone notice the widespread misconception that at some point along the Nile River people magically changed from black to Mediterranean? For most people that magic point is the First Cataract while for others (the ones who are willing to concede that Upper Egyptians were black) it's the entryway of the Delta. Even if you accept the existence of Mediterranean-looking Egyptians, you'd expect a much less abrupt gradient as you traveled downriver, with people gradually getting lighter as you approach the Delta.
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There may have been some influence from the "Near East" and Iberia [assuming that they were seafarers then] during the Neolithic, but I'm of the mindset that much of the European ancestry [mostly maternal] is of a more recent extraction than prehistoric.
The closet distance between Spain and Morcco is about 7 miles! In prehistoric times. The Mediterranean basin was much more shallow than it is Today.
Abstract The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the "out of Africa" exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely approximately 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15791543 Iberomaurusian (or Iberomarusian) was a late Paleolithic culture present in the Iberian Peninsula and Mahgreb, North Africa from 20.000 to 7.500 BC (Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, and Piazza 1994).They were considered Cro-Magnon and Caucasoid types. Old archaelogical evidences of connections between the Levante and Mahgreb-Iberian spaces can be found in many others items, like blades and snails ! So the movement was from east to west, from North Africa to Iberia.."
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Anyone notice the widespread misconception that at some point along the Nile River people magically changed from black to Mediterranean? For most people that magic point is the First Cataract while for others (the ones who are willing to concede that Upper Egyptians were black) it's the entryway of the Delta. Even if you accept the existence of Mediterranean-looking Egyptians, you'd expect a much less abrupt gradient as you traveled downriver, with people gradually getting lighter as you approach the Delta.
No abrupt magic point. But as you say people would gradually become lighter as you appproached North. On a similar note, what I find interesting is that some seem to expect the Egyptian border with Palestine to be some kind of magical demarcation as well. For while they will concede that Palestinians were likely Middle Eastern in appearance, once you crossed the border into Egypt everybody is suddenly Black. Why you ask? Because it's AFRICA! I'm glad to find critical thinkers like your self that understand a bit about geography and how demograpics change gradually over distance.
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How shallow was the Mediterranean basin during the Neolithic? Let's get numbers.
As for these excerpts, I've heard these arguments many times before. Much of Maghrebi "Eurasian" mtDNA are not that vastly different from the Iberian counterparts, reinforcing the point that they generally recent. From my observation, much of the "Eurasian" component in contemporary Maghrebi groups are attributable to both the slave trade of Europe, during the North African control in the Iberian peninsula, and the reported expulsions that accompanied the decline of north African rule in the peninsula.
With regards to the so-called Iberomaurusians, up to date understanding is that it is of local origin, which later spread eastward. NONE of the so-called "Iberomaurusian" cranial specimens were indistinguishable from the so-called Cro-Magnon series of Europe; hence, the name "Mechtoid". Even the so-called "Iberomaurusian" specimens differed from one another from territory to territory in the Maghreb.
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Everyone should keep in mind that the "tropical African" samples Keita used in his studies are predominantly of the Broad "True Negro" phenotype. For all we know, a study using narrower-featered Northeast Africans like Ethiopians or Somalis could could have had the northern Egyptians cluster with them so that they don't appear so "intermediate" between Africans and Europeans.
Keita has generally maintained that he saw gradients in the Egyptian series. According to him the Upper Egyptian specimens fell mostly into "broad" and "elongated" types, both of which he places under the "tropical African" pattern. He based his use of "elongated" on that of Hiernaux, whom in turn put populations in the African Horn in that category. So not all Egyptian series were placed into the "coastal North African" pattern; rather, the northern Egyptian series of the Sedment and the E series were placed into the "coastal north African" pattern. Mapping however shows that the Sedment series is also distinct from the "E" series.
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: On a similar note, what I find interesting is that some seem to expect the Egyptian border with Palestine to be some kind of magical demarcation as well. For while they will concede that Palestinians were likely Middle Eastern in appearance, once you crossed the border into Egypt everybody is suddenly Black. Why you ask? Because it's AFRICA! I'm glad to find critical thinkers like your self that understand a bit about geography and how demograpics change gradually over distance. [/qb]
A point I was about to make. When you look at the map, and how close the highly populous Nile Delta is to Palestine, this 'African' designation seems very arbitrary. Also people forget that the Sinai Peninsula is an integral part of Egypt and it is not in Africa at all!
The edge of the Delt literally touches Asia! This geography reveals how questionable it is to try to oriente Egypt towards interior Africa rather than Middle East.
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False, as many of your other claims. The Sinai peninsula is very much geologically a part of Africa, and not part of the Arabian plate, as you imagine.
The study of body proportions of predyanstic Delta specimens show sharp distinctions to Palestianian specimens. They aligned more closely with other Egyptian and African specimens. This was reportedly attributable to a "lack of common ancestry for a long period of time". The Sinai peninsula may have been more of a gradient point than mainland Egypt, until relatively recently, i.e. post Hyksos, Greek and Roman eras.
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Not only that, but all land west of the extension of the Rift composed of Gulf of Aqaba, the Arabah, Dead Sea, Jordan River, and Kinnereth is on the African plate and not the Arabian plate which is itself a break-away of the African tectonic plate. Only faulty geo-politics before earth science was known makes the Arabian plate and peninsula "Asian."
African plate areas in yellow include part of Cyprus, coastal Levant, and all of Sinai. This is the actual physiology of earth's geography as distinct from political boundaries.
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The plate boundary is irrelevant. Much of Palestine is indeed also part of the same African plate, but it is still Asian, and so is Sinai.
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How shallow was the Mediterranean basin during the Neolithic? Let's get numbers.
Don't know but what makes you don't that folks crossed over especially during the last glacial Maximum. From alater period, 4000 B.C. or so there is even some evidence of European megalithic culture in North Africa.
From my observation, much of the "Eurasian" component in contemporary Maghrebi groups are attributable to both the slave trade of Europe, during the North African control in the Iberian peninsula, and the reported expulsions that accompanied the decline of north African rule in the peninsula.
The problem I have with that is that being that the dominant culture and language of the Moors was Arabic. You would think European slaves would be sent to upper classes in urban centers centers and become arabized. However many of the very light skinned Berbers some with light hair and eyes are found in remote Berber enclaves were some sacrcely speak Arabic like in the Rif mountains for example. That's not exactly were one would expect European slaves to end up, is it?
Riffian girl.
Also when we take into consideration the light features, as claimed of the Guanche in the Canary islands, who have lived there apparently before the Roman era, this tends to suggest light skinned folks in North Africa date much further back than recent times. The Guanche btw spoke a language and had a culture that was related to that of the Berbers. Also there is the issue of the Eurasian looking Libyans as depicted by the Egyptians nearly four thousand years ago, among other things.
And many of the expelled Moors founded their own towns in North Africa many of which are still extant to this day. Not to say that some didn't mix with the genereal population. Still, I'm sure geneticists who want get a true historical picture as to the origns of the Berbers would be careful not to look in heavily mixed urban areas etc
With regards to the so-called Iberomaurusians, up to date understanding is that it is of local origin, which later spread eastward.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Iberomaurusian also defines a material culture. Are you saying that there was no shared culture spaning from Iberia into North Africa?
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Obvioulsy there is natural geographical division between Egypt and Syria/Palestine, and historically these were different lands with different languages, so some division is to be expected. However is it proven that they were any more different genetically than Frenchmen are from Spaniards? (Similarly differentiated by geography and laguage). There are images of Egyptians and Canaanites that look similar, and there is the evidence from the Bible which records Moses being mistaken for an Egyptian. The Jews seemed to be crossing into Egypt all the time before the supposed captivity, and Joseph's brothers appear also to have mistaken him for an Egyptian. There is also evidence of intermarriage. Joseph had an Egyptian wife, Moses a Kushite one. Solomon had a pharaoh's daughter in his harem and the pharaohs had many Syrian women in theirs (but none with harsh voices)
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Better to do research than just lazily skim Wikipedia. The Sinai peninsula has a clear fault at its boundary with the Arabian plate; it doesn't have that fault with Egyptian territory, to which it is attached. Research; stop simply parroting the first thing that comes your way!
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The plate faultline is not the dividing line, the continental dividing line is taken to be the narrowest land bridge, which is on the Suez side. (The Suez canal also physically severs the Aferican and Asian continents there- the two bits of Egypt in other words.
Don't know but what makes you don't that folks crossed over especially during the last glacial Maximum. From alater period, 4000 B.C. or so there is even some evidence of European megalithic culture in North Africa.
You assumed that I doubt the possibility that people crossed over Mediterranean sea or the Gibraltar strait. I just don't know that they necessarily did, and so, asking for evidence. Seas can be real barriers, if proper navigation tools are not one's disposal.
quote:
The problem I have with that is that being that the dominant culture and language of the Moors was Arabic. You would think European slaves would be sent to upper classes in urban centers centers and become arabized.
European slaves were mostly women, which is reflecting in Maghrebi gene pools. What makes you assume that they had any social power?
quote: However many of the very light skinned Berbers some with light hair and eyes are found in remote Berber enclaves were some sacrcely speak Arabic like in the Rif mountains for example. That's not exactly were one would expect European slaves to end up, is it?
Are the majority of these people not Muslims?
quote:
Also when we take into consideration the light features, as claimed of the Guanche in the Canary islands, who have lived there apparently before the Roman era, this tends to suggest light skinned folks in North Africa date much further back than recent times. The Guanche btw spoke a language and had a culture that was related to that of the Berbers. Also there is the issue of the Eurasian looking Libyans as depicted by the Egyptians nearly four thousand years ago, among other things.
The Guanche have not been spared European gene flow.
quote: I'm not sure what you are getting at. Iberomaurusian also defines a material culture. Are you saying that there was no shared culture spaning from Iberia into North Africa?
The Iberomaurusian refers to lithic-culture in the Maghrebi. The "Ibero" was justified presumably because of supposed similarities with those found across the Mediterranean sea. It is now known that this is a misleading term, since the lithic-culture in question is determined to be one of local origin.
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: False, as many of your other claims. The Sinai peninsula is very much geologically a part of Africa, and not part of the Arabian plate, as you imagine.
The study of body proportions of predyanstic Delta specimens show sharp distinctions to Palestianian specimens. They aligned more closely with other Egyptian and African specimens. This was reportedly attributable to a "lack of common ancestry for a long period of time". The Sinai peninsula may have been more of a gradient point than mainland Egypt, until relatively recently, i.e. post Hyksos, Greek and Roman eras.
I cant see what would prevent people from moving back and forth along the coast. And in another post I showed that there was considerable Palestinian influence in the pre dynastic Northern Egypt in the cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi. I seriously doubt there wouldn't have been admixture these people.
Anyway here is an interesting study.
One of the most complete aDNA studies involved analyzing material from the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt. Th is report includes a detailed description of the procedures undertaken to avoid contamination. All samples were collected immediately following excavation, and the fi eld staff wore latex gloves. Bone preparation and DNA isolation were carried out in a Paleo- DNA laboratory especially designed for ancient DNA work (Graver et al. 2001). The investigators focused on the Kellis 2 cemetery associated with the ancient town of Kellis. This necropolis was in use between 300 and 390 CE and included ~3000 burials. DNA isolation was conducted for 50 skeletal samples from the cemetery. The aim of the study was to characterize the ancient population from the Dakhleh Oasis. To allow for inferences regarding population changes at the oasis, 94 contemporary samples were also analyzed. Previous genetic studies of Egyptian, Nubian, and Sudanese populations allowed for distinguishing between two mtDNA types: the so alled “southern” (Sub-Saharan) and “northern” (Eurasian) (for details see: Chen et al. 1995; Krings et al. 1999). To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplifi cation of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fi t the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of Hpa I 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis." http://www.anthropology.uw.edu.pl/02/bne-02-02.pdfPosts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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I cant see what would prevent people from moving back and forth along the coast. And in another post I showed that there was considerable Palestinian influence in the pre dynastic Northern Egypt in the cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi. I seriously doubt there wouldn't have been admixture these people.
You are choosing to overlook the physical evidence that says there were sharp distinctions between the delta Egyptian specimens and the Palestinian ones. The evidence is what it is; you can be disappointed about it, or be puzzled by it, but beyond that, there is little else one can do about it.
People do exchange goods, and even ideas, without getting into sexual relations. The concept is called "trade" today.
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Exactly Explorer grave goods in cemetery L in Ta-Seti aka Nubia carries Jars and other items directly from Syria Palestine without Kemet being a middleman.
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You assumed that I doubt the possibility that people crossed over Mediterranean sea or the Gibraltar strait. I just don't know that they necessarily did, and so, asking for evidence. Seas can be real barriers, if proper navigation tools are not one's disposal.
Yet I'm sure you aknowledge that European seafarers in prehistoric times were able to cross the English Channel..25 miles is about shortest distance from the continent. You might find this interesting..
"In Morocco, not far from the Atlantic coast and away from major tourist attractions, lies a remarkable and enigmatic megalithic site. The Mzora stone ring (also spelled variously as Msoura/Mezorah) is situated roughly 11km from the nearest town of Asilah and about 27km from the ruins of ancient Lixus. It is not easy to reach and a small display in the archaeological museum at Tetouan is the most the majority of visitors see or hear of this very interesting site. Plutarch, in the first century CE, may have referred to Mzora in his Life of Sertorius. He describes the Roman General Quintus Sertorius being told by local inhabitants about a site they knew as the tomb of the giant Antaeus who had been killed by Hercules. There are many other ancient accounts that place the tomb of Antaeus in close proximity to both Lixus and Tangier and it is quite plausible that Mzora is the inspiration behind these stories. The site itself is a Neolithic ellipse of 168 surviving stones of the 175 originally believed to have existed. The tallest of these stones is over 5m in height. The ellipse has a major axis of 59.29 metres and a minor axis of 56.18 metres. At the centre of the ring, and quite probably a much later addition, is a large tumulus, today almost disappeared. The bulk of the damage to it seems to have been done by excavations undertaken in 1935-6 by César Luis de Montalban. The only professional survey of the site was conducted in the 1970s by James Watt Mavor, Junior of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute in Massachusetts, USA. It is this survey that revealed Mzora to be not only remarkable in its own right but to have implications for the history of megalithic sites in Britain. Mzora, incredibly, appears to have been constructed either by the same culture that erected the megalithic sites in France, Britain and Ireland or by one that was intimately connected with them. The ellipse is constructed using a Pythagorean right angled triangle of the ratio 12, 35, 37. This same technique was used in the construction of British stone ellipses of which 30 good examples survive including the Sands of Forvie and Daviot rings. Furthermore it appears that the same unit of measure, the megalithic yard (or something remarkably close) used in the construction of the British sites surveyed by Professor Alexander Thom, was also used in the construction of Mzora. "
European slaves were mostly women, which is reflecting in Maghrebi gene pools. What makes you assume that they had any social power?
No, I'm saying would you expect their descandants to end up in a remote Berber village speaking Berber???
Are the majority of these people not Muslims?
They are nominally for the most part. But retain some of their traditions.
The Guanche have not been spared European gene flow.
Yet the traits were present when the Guanche were first discovered. There genetic signature is similar to that of the Berbers.
The Iberomaurusian refers to lithic-culture in the Maghrebi. The "Ibero" was justified presumably because of supposed similarities with those found across the Mediterranean sea. It is now known that this is a misleading term, since the lithic-culture in question is determined to be one of local origin.
So the similarites are coincidence?
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I believe the main point here is that it presents no significant barrier to human migration.
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Precisely why Mashubean Africans went east and engendered the Natufian Levantines and how the earlier sapiens found at Skuhl got to get there before climate changes made it impassable thus trapping them into extinction.
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I cant see what would prevent people from moving back and forth along the coast. And in another post I showed that there was considerable Palestinian influence in the pre dynastic Northern Egypt in the cultural centers of Merinda and Maadi. I seriously doubt there wouldn't have been admixture these people.
You are choosing to overlook the physical evidence that says there were sharp distinctions between the delta Egyptian specimens and the Palestinian ones. The evidence is what it is; you can be disappointed about it, or be puzzled by it, but beyond that, there is little else one can do about it.
People do exchange goods, and even ideas, without getting into sexual relations. The concept is called "trade" today.
Yes I do question it. Considering that the Natufian culture whioch took hold in the Levant came out of Northern Egypt along with spreading the E haplogroup as well etc.
But I will have to continie with this later. Gotta go for now.
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Yet I'm sure you aknowledge that European seafarers in prehistoric times were able to cross the English Channel..25 miles is about shortest distance from the continent. You might find this interesting...
I agree that that your piece is interesting, but not damning.
quote:
No, I'm saying would you expect their descandants to end up in a remote Berber village speaking Berber???
Why not? Because the people in these areas today appear to be "poor"?
quote:
They are nominally for the most part. But retain some of their traditions.
But not Muslims in practice? What religion would they be actually practicing? Anyway, if Islam could have reached these "isolated" folks, why would you rule out the prospect that they too could have been genetically impacted from the same social forces that supposedly brought Arabic to the "urban centers", and the same social events that supposedly brought about slaves in "urban centers", as you claim?
quote: Yet the traits were present when the Guanche were first discovered. There genetic signature is similar to that of the Berbers.
Clarification of traits you are alluding to?
quote:
So the similarites are coincidence?
Very possible, since there were enough differences to make an observer favor a local origin over a diffusion theory. Also Europeans are generally Eurocentric, which is why they like to conceive of diffusion from north to south, when it could just as easily have been the other way around--i.e. from south to north, esp. given the rich local African lithic history and its spread into the Levant.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I believe the main point here is that it presents no significant barrier to human migration.
Nope. The guy was saying that the Sinai peninsula is really a part of Asia. That is false.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
Yes I do question it. Considering that the Natufian culture whioch took hold in the Levant came out of Northern Egypt along with spreading the E haplogroup as well etc.
You question the physical evidence, but then what can you do about it?
The Natufian's African ancestors came into the Levant in the Upper Paleolithic. The Delta specimens are Holocene specimens. You are mixing apples and oranges.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Exactly Explorer grave goods in cemetery L in Ta-Seti aka Nubia carries Jars and other items directly from Syria Palestine without Kemet being a middleman.
True enough, but you may be hard-pressed to get the same amount of enthusiasm go into "Nubia" about wanting them to be "hybrids" of Africans and Asians/Europeans.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Here's something that might interest melchior7; quote:
"The Barbary Pirates
The Barbary pirates, also sometimes called Ottoman corsairs, were pirates and privateers that operated from north Africa (the "Barbary coast"). They operated out of Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers, Salé and ports in Morocco, preying on shipping in the western Mediterranean Sea from the time of the Crusades as well as on ships on their way to Asia around Africa until the early 19th century. Their stronghold was along the stretch of northern Africa known as the Barbary Coast (a medieval term for the Maghreb after its Berber inhabitants), although their predation was said to extend throughout the Mediterranean, south along West Africa's Atlantic seaboard, and into the North Atlantic, purportedly as far north as Iceland. As well as preying on shipping, raids were often made on European coastal towns. The pirates were responsible for capturing large numbers of Christian slaves from Europe, who were sold in slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco.
According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates and sold as slaves between the 16th and 17th century. These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain and Portugal, and from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland and North America. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793. Isolated cases of piracy have occurred on the ***Rif coast*** of Morocco even at the beginning of the 20th century, but the pirate communities which lived by plunder and could live by no other resource, vanished with the French conquest of Algiers in 1830.
The most famous corsairs were the Ottoman Barbarossa (meaning Redbeard) brothers, the nickname of Hızır (Hayreddin) and his older brother Oruç who took control of Algiers in the early 16th century and turned it into the center of Mediterranean piracy and privateering for the next three centuries, as well as establishing the Ottoman Empire presence in North Africa which lasted four centuries. Other famous Ottoman privateer-admirals included Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West), Kurtoğlu (known as Curtogoli in the West), Kemal Reis, Salih Reis and Koca Murat Reis."
Well, well. What do we have here? Whatever could have happened to all those millions of European slaves? The Rif Coast is not spared from implication in this whole affair. There's more:
"Although piracy had existed in the region throughout the decline of the Roman Empire, the barbarian invasions, the Muslim conquest and the Middle Ages, piracy became particularly flagrant in the 14th century when the local Berber dynasties were in decadence. The town of Bougie was then the most notorious pirate base..."
" The rich were allowed to redeem themselves, but the poor were condemned to slavery. Their masters would on occasion allow them to secure freedom by professing Islam."
Slaves were even in some cases allowed to become part of communities:
"The old city of Algiers, with its narrow streets, intense heat and lively trade, was a melting pot where the villagers would join slaves and freemen of many nationalities."
For details, see this site: Link...make what you will, with the site.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by DaHoslips101: It's pretty sure they looked more like they still look than like sub-saharans look.
^^^Obviously all the same race.
Does not equal:
The first picture of Ramses son and his son are unusual in that the complexion is orange. I suspect alteration or fading of paint which is obviously the case of the second picture of a dwarf and his wife whose original symbolic yellow is totally gone. The picture below is obviously of a Greco-Roman descendant child, the modern Arab types are obviously not representative of the ancients.
Again cherry picking will not help you.
Also your argument about the Sinai is null and void since I and others have told you many times that the Sinai was never part of Egypt until New Kingdom times when it was fully incorporated along with the Levant.
It also does not change the fact that there your "Sub-Saharan" division of Africans never existed as indigenous i.e. BLACK Africans are found all over the continent long before the Sahara existed. Even the Sinai and Levant was never a limit since the mesolithic Mushabians crossed the Sinai and immigrated to the Levant where they became the Natufians and the same happened with the Harifians who crossed into Arabia to introduce cattle culture!
quote: The Arabian J haplogroup is also quite common among Delta Egyptians and others along the N. African coast.
Yes, and most of the hg J in these areas date to the Islamic period while some date to before that during the Phoenician expansion. I suppose you want to associate European derived hg R1b with indigenous Egyptians as well. LOLPosts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Here's something that might interest melchior7;
quote::
"The Barbary Pirates
The Barbary pirates, also sometimes called Ottoman corsairs, were pirates and privateers that operated from north Africa (the "Barbary coast"). They operated out of Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers, Salé and ports in Morocco, preying on shipping in the western Mediterranean Sea from the time of the Crusades as well as on ships on their way to Asia around Africa until the early 19th century. Their stronghold was along the stretch of northern Africa known as the Barbary Coast (a medieval term for the Maghreb after its Berber inhabitants), although their predation was said to extend throughout the Mediterranean, south along West Africa's Atlantic seaboard, and into the North Atlantic, purportedly as far north as Iceland. As well as preying on shipping, raids were often made on European coastal towns. The pirates were responsible for capturing large numbers of Christian slaves from Europe, who were sold in slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco.
According to Robert Davis between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates and sold as slaves between the 16th and 17th century. These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages in Italy, Spain and Portugal, and from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland and North America. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793. Isolated cases of piracy have occurred on the ***Rif coast*** of Morocco even at the beginning of the 20th century, but the pirate communities which lived by plunder and could live by no other resource, vanished with the French conquest of Algiers in 1830.
The most famous corsairs were the Ottoman Barbarossa (meaning Redbeard) brothers, the nickname of Hızır (Hayreddin) and his older brother Oruç who took control of Algiers in the early 16th century and turned it into the center of Mediterranean piracy and privateering for the next three centuries, as well as establishing the Ottoman Empire presence in North Africa which lasted four centuries. Other famous Ottoman privateer-admirals included Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West), Kurtoğlu (known as Curtogoli in the West), Kemal Reis, Salih Reis and Koca Murat Reis."
Well, well. What do we have here? Whatever could have happened to all those millions of European slaves? The Rif Coast is not spared from implication in this whole affair. There's more:
"Although piracy had existed in the region throughout the decline of the Roman Empire, the barbarian invasions, the Muslim conquest and the Middle Ages, piracy became particularly flagrant in the 14th century when the local Berber dynasties were in decadence. The town of Bougie was then the most notorious pirate base..."
" The rich were allowed to redeem themselves, but the poor were condemned to slavery. Their masters would on occasion allow them to secure freedom by professing Islam."
Slaves were even in some cases allowed to become part of communities:
"The old city of Algiers, with its narrow streets, intense heat and lively trade, was a melting pot where the villagers would join slaves and freemen of many nationalities."
For details, see this site: Link...make what you will, with the site.
So much for Riffians having always been white. Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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