So, recently I've been trying to reconcile the stela 8 passage as quoted by J. H. Breasted:
quote:"He (i.e. Thutmose I) has overthrown the chief of the Nubians. The Nubian is helpless, defenseless in his grasp. He has united the boundaries of his two sides, there is not a remnant of the Curly-Haired who come to attack him; there is not a single survivor among them. The Nubians fall by the sword and are thrust aside in their lands. Their foulness, it floods their valleys; theÉ of their mouths is like a violent flood. The fragments cut from them are too much for the birds (who eat carrion)
--Nubianet
^So what I was trying to reconcile basically was why an individual who belongs to a population of "curly-haired" people, would distinguish another population on the basis of their curly hair? Were the Egyptians then, not curly-haired?
My uneasiness seems justified after I came across an old book from H. A. MacMichael called "History of the Arabs in Sudan", where interestingly, he associates the term used by Breasted to denote curly-hairedness ("nebed"), with the term later used by Arabs as a reference to the Nobatae, and thus, 'Nubia'. It is also shown that the Breasted translation is wrong not just on the Nehesi/Negro translation, but the "nebed"/curly-haired translation as the term more appropriately denotes "plaited-hair" (recalling that this was considered a sign of distinguished birth in Egypt its self according to the Greeks).
quote:He speaks of "the Novfiat." Later the name occurs as Nou/3«Se?, or in the Latinized form of Nobatae.
The ultimate derivation of the word is not known, but it appears to be of very ancient origin and may be connected through the Coptic NOTBT (meaning "to plait") with "nebed," the word used in the inscription of Thothmes I (date c. 1540 B.C.) to denote "the plaited-haired ones," or as it is perhaps with less accuracy translated "the curly-haired ones" whom that monarch overthrew in the neighbourhood of the third cataract: "He hath overthrown the chief of the "Nubians 1 ; the Negro [nehesi] is helpless There is not a remnant among the curly-haired, who came to attack him 2 ."
I imagine that the Arabs simply adopted the word which they found commonly used in Egypt to denote collectively the races living south of the first cataract 3 .
With ethnological differentiation they
1 Ap. Strabo, Bk. xvn, ed. Casaubon, p. 786.
2 Breasted, A. R. 11, 71, and S el igman, Journ. Anthr. Inst, xliii, 1913, pp. 616, 618. The latter says, "With regard to the word in the inscription of Thothmes I rendered 'the curly-haired,' i.e. as a synonym of 'Negro' {nehesi), written earlier in the inscription... it is necessary to exercise a certain amount of caution, for Miss Murray points out that this word reads Nebed, and is determined by a lock of hair, i.e. 'the curly-haired' stands for 'the nebed-haired.' But 'nebed,' according to Brugsch, does not mean ' curly,' but is the equivalent of the French tresser, natter, entrelacer, and is akin to the Coptic NOTBT =plectere, intexere."
^Keep in mind that this is 1922. A mistranslation of Nehesi to "Negro" was quite common and I'm sure wasn't corrected until relatively recently. It still hasn't been fully corrected clearly either as displayed above if nehesi and nebed are two different words yet the word "Nubian" can only be associated with the latter.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
Tutmose I
Warrior Pharao and the founder of great political and intellectual heritage of the 18th dynasty. Later Amarna rulers were able to sit back and immerse themselves in wealth and prosperity (and indifference in foreign politics) because of his foreign policy and constant campaigning.
The bastard also contributed to the fall of Kerma.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
I knew there was something wrong with that translation by Breasted. Good find!
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
To be honest, though, I'm not so sure the Egyptians had curly hair on average. According to this study done on Egyptian hair, the average trichometer index ranged between 65.2 and 72.1, the latter rating being typical of straighter hair (though admittedly the 72.1 rating came from a small predynastic sample).
Download here Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:The means for the indices of the ten samples in the series shown in table 1 indicate a range of 16 points, viz., from 70 to 86 This spread covers all divisions of hair form according to Martin ('28) who considered hair with an index of 50-75 to be curly; 75-80 wavy; and 80-100 to be straight. It is of interest that two samples (94 and 310) were wavy, if not curly, in the gross specinieii aiid that two other samples, whose indices were eveii lou7cr (392 and 310-77) appeared to be straight. The range of means for the indices of ten Negroes found by Steggerda and Seibert ('41) amounted to 17 points. However, the hair of the total group of Paracas mummies shows a mean of 81.81 for the index which stands midway between Woodbury axid Woodburp's fiiidiiigs for the Mesa Verde Indians of 79.77 and for the Basket Maker Indians of 82.81. It is within the range of indices reported by Steggerda and Seibert for the Maya, Hopi, Navajo and Zuni Indians (85.04, 82.98, 82.53, 80.46, respectively).
EDIT: Yeah Truthcentric, you're right. I guess I got thrown off by the seperate mentions of cross section and transverse index. The former mention pertains to meassurements of the cross section, the latter to cross section index
quote:Lengthening of the hair has been related to the breaking charge, to main cross-section diameters and to transverse index (100 x minimum diumeter~maximumd iamehr) by computing correlation and multiple regression coefficients (Table 1).
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
EDIT: NM, Kalonji had a very good point.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji: Still reading the study and trying to understand its content, but please note that cross section index and transverse index are not the same
I looked at the Paracas Indian study you cited, and it defines its indices as smallest diameter * 100/largest diameter, the same as the tranverse index in the study I cited. So, yes, they would be the same.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
From the Strouhal study recently uploaded by Calabooz:
quote:In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in io cases. They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in II, brown in I2, light brown in i and grey in I I cases.25 Thanks to the courtesy of Dr Lawrence and Dr Garlick from the Duckworth Laboratory in Cambridge, I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian individuals which were macroscopically curly (spirals of Io-20 mm in diameter) or wavy (25-35 mm). They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthropology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. The outline of the crosssections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians.
^Despite all of his embarassing lingo, and odd coloration, he found that the hair morphology showed traits commonly found in a subset of African hair, namely, constrictions along the shaft and flattened shapes.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
It'd be nice to see the primary text to know just what the exact spelling is, what glyphs surround the word, and what if any illustration goes with the text.
Lacking that, the variant I find for nebet which most likely is used to describe the Nehesi means twisted or braided, a hairstyle seen in many an image of Nehesi.
Nebd appears in the name of a particular Nehesi people known as Nebdu-qed and is the word on the Tombos Stele of Thutmose I erected near the third cataract and referenced in the opening post.
"Nebet" does not distinguish hair texture implied by the "curly" translation. Mes means a hair curl. Nebt/nebd applies to how the hair is arranged.
Interestingly enough, one meaning of wawat is hair.
Posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed (Member # 18528) on :
LOL!! Look at you doing all sorts of gymnastics to "reconcile" what contradicts your belief in Black Egypt. Clearly, you have no academic honesty for the mere fact, you are trying to force the information to conform to your nonsensical belief.
You guys are off the chain!!!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: LOL!! Look at you doing all sorts of gymnastics to "reconcile" what contradicts your belief in Black Egypt. Clearly, you have no academic honesty for the mere fact, you are trying to force the information to conform to your nonsensical belief.
You guys are off the chain!!!
What non-sensical belief? That the Badarians clustered with the Teita? That the Badarians had a nasal index of 50+? Or that the peoples with whom the Egyptians had common ancestry show same hair characteristics?
Welcome to the real world, bub.
Africans don't conform to your pre conceived notions.
Christian period Nubians on a cranial map:
The same Africans populations when their hair is examined
Parallel 1 with Badarian hair:
Meroitic and Christian period Nubians Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. (...) They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in I2, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases.
Parallel 2 with Badarian hair:
Meroitic and Christian period group The average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the N.W. European and East African samples, which are of medium thickness. Of the variables that best distinguish European and African samples, the total Semna sample was closer to the European on average curvature, crimp, and ratio of length.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
On the matter of hair, Joan Fletcher correctly states that color can definitely be changed by the environment:
The search for Nefertiti: the true story of an amazing discovery By Joann Fletcher
Thought that was interesting. However, she has also classified Egyptian hair as 'Caucasoid' in the past. Not sure exactly where the article she wrote this in though...
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji:
quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: LOL!! Look at you doing all sorts of gymnastics to "reconcile" what contradicts your belief in Black Egypt. Clearly, you have no academic honesty for the mere fact, you are trying to force the information to conform to your nonsensical belief.
You guys are off the chain!!!
What non-sensical belief? That the Badarians clustered with the Teita? That the Badarians had a nasal index of 50+? Or that the peoples with whom the Egyptians had common ancestry show same hair characteristics?
Welcome to the real world, bub.
Africans don't conform to your pre conceived notions.
Christian period Nubians on a cranial map:
The same Africans populations when there hair is examined
Parralels with Egyptian hair in peculiar coloration:
Meroitic and Christian period Nubians Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. (...) They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in I2, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases.
Paralells with Badarian hair: Meroitic and Christian period group The average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the N.W. European and East African samples, which are of medium thickness. Of the variables that best distinguish European and African samples, the total Semna sample was closer to the European on average curvature, crimp, and ratio of length.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases.
Analysis of Badarian Crania by Zakrzewski 2002 also found the Badarian to be morphologically homogeneous. Which hurts the euro-centric ideology even more given that they show morphological clusters with southern African groups. Not to mention that they are found to be the 'centroid' in both cranial (zakrzewski 2007) and dental (Irish 2006) analysis. So they are quite similar to latter Egyptians and a good representative of the ancestors to the Egyptians Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Besides Thutmose I, Amenhotep II, Seti I, and 19th dynasty inscriptions also mention the Nebdu qed.
It's been shown, referencing Thutmose I's stela at Tombos, that Nebdu qed, applies to one particular set of Nehesi perhaps characterized by their hair twists.
So nebd has nothing to do with type of hair, i.e., nappy, frizzy, curly, wavy, straight, but the style of hair.
But the question of hair type, Egyptian vs Nehesi, in the 18th and 19th dynasties cannot be answered by any other data than hair samples of the two at that era in time.
Is any such data available?
I would expect to see a south-north cline from woolly in Southern Nubia to slightly wavy in the Delta extremities as norms with individual variance scattered throughout.
= = =
Fletcher categorized the majority AE hairtype as cynotrichous, a made up term encompassing all hair that isn't heliotrichous (another made up term). The latter is only one hair type, but the former has five different hair types.
Her contrived terms dog hair and sun hair describe nothing. In effect, and without bluntly using racial terminology Fletcher has turned ulotrichous (woolly hair) into negro hair (her heliotrichous)leaving both cymotrichous and leiotrichous hair types for non-negro hair (her cynotrichous).
As for head lice, they come in disctinct sub-species. The scientific name of the lice Fletcher found would allow us to know if the hair was naturally woolly or not. African lice are adapted to traverse oval cross sectioned hair.
quote:Originally posted by L': Analysis of Badarian Crania by Zakrzewski 2002 also found the Badarian to be morphologically homogeneous. Which hurts the euro-centric ideology even more given that they show morphological clusters with southern African groups. Not to mention that they are found to be the 'centroid' in both cranial (zakrzewski 2007) and dental (Irish 2006) analysis. So they are quite similar to latter Egyptians and a good representative of the ancestors to the Egyptians
^Jep
What Afrocentric Liars Exposed doesn't realize is that it takes more acrobatics to ignore the rest of multidisciplinary work (and just focus on hair) than it does to look at all lines of evidence (Craniofacial, post cranial etc).
^African from Punt, used recently in my vid
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Oh right, meant to ask, where is the above image from? Haven't seem many depictions of Puntites
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
Its from Queen Hatshepsut's temple in Deir el-Bahari. Of course, people rarely upload images with Africans on them that look similar to the Ancient Egyptians. They get a kick out of gazing at Ancient Egyptian caricatures of Nubians, which is why we have such a hard time color finding images of Tehenu's, but no trouble finding caricatures and pictures where fellow Africans are subdued.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
This is very helpful, thanks.
quote:Besides Thutmose I, Amenhotep II, Seti I, and 19th dynasty inscriptions also mention the Nebdu qed.
It's been shown, referencing Thutmose I's stela at Tombos, that Nebdu qed, applies to one particular set of Nehesi perhaps characterized by their hair twists.
So nebd has nothing to do with type of hair, i.e., nappy, frizzy, curly, wavy, straight, but the style of hair.
But the question of hair type, Egyptian vs Nehesi, in the 18th and 19th dynasties cannot be answered by any other data than hair samples of the two at that era in time.
Is any such data available?
I would expect to see a south-north cline from woolly in Southern Nubia to slightly wavy in the Delta extremities as norms with individual variance scattered throughout.
= = =
Fletcher categorized the majority AE hairtype as cynotrichous, a made up term encompassing all hair that isn't heliotrichous (another made up term). The latter is only one hair type, but the former has five different hair types.
Her contrived terms dog hair and sun hair describe nothing. In effect, and without bluntly using racial terminology Fletcher has turned ulotrichous (woolly hair) into negro hair (her heliotrichous)leaving both cymotrichous and leiotrichous hair types for non-negro hair (her cynotrichous).
As for head lice, they come in disctinct sub-species. The scientific name of the lice Fletcher found would allow us to know if the hair was naturally woolly or not. African lice are adapted to traverse oval cross sectioned hair.
Very interesting. Considering the various ethnic groups that roamed the southern frontiers, I'm inclined to believe that the word indeed may have been more directly applied to the Nobatae known to the Romans, who are likely ancestors of the modern Nuba. Striking since the Nuba have preserved traditions of hair plating and wrestling. Piny the elder also described traditions in body painting beyond Meroe, which the Nuba are still known for. I think the hair-plating in Egypt, described by Timolaus to be a sign of distinguished birth (of "free" men), may reflect a way of preserving older African traditions in a more stratified society.
Very good observation about the head lice as well. I haven't read much on Fletcher concerning this.. Do you, or does anyone else know if she's ever made direct reference to the sub-species or referenced somebody who does?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: To be honest, though, I'm not so sure the Egyptians had curly hair on average. According to this study done on Egyptian hair, the average trichometer index ranged between 65.2 and 72.1, the latter rating being typical of straighter hair (though admittedly the 72.1 rating came from a small predynastic sample).
Truth, this study was already cited and put into a larger context in the "Egyptology: Hanging in the hair" article. Zarahan has it on his site as well. You can't just throw out some random range, even admitting that the higher end of the range has considerably less weight due to small sample size, while still maintaining that you are "not so sure" that Egyptian hair was curly, despite it being described as such in ethnohistoric testimony.
From the study: "Because of the exceedingly small number of subjects in the predynastic sample, from which erratic results may arise, no definite comments are possible on such subjects, at this stage of research, in the field of correlation."
^Also, remember Keita points out that pre-dynastic Badari hair was generally no different from Kanuri, Funali, and Somali hair.
So anyways, the mean from this and their previous 1972 study was 66.50 according to West Africa Magazine. Posting this still doesn't change the fact as reported from the selected studies combined which show that the overall mean [disregard the range] was closer to the sub-Saharan average (60 um).
Also if Kalonji's source is correct, this is further evidence using the data alluded to that Egyptian hair form was perfectly within the "curly" range. Even without the other studies lowering the overall mean, 66.5 is still in the mid-range with respect to the two extremes of curly-haired diversity and the range in sub-Saharan Africa swinging an entire 17 points in each direction, should further demonstrate that Egyptian hair form was fully a part of that Saharo-tropical variation.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji:
quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: LOL!! Look at you doing all sorts of gymnastics to "reconcile" what contradicts your belief in Black Egypt. Clearly, you have no academic honesty for the mere fact, you are trying to force the information to conform to your nonsensical belief.
You guys are off the chain!!!
What non-sensical belief? That the Badarians clustered with the Teita? That the Badarians had a nasal index of 50+? Or that the peoples with whom the Egyptians had common ancestry show same hair characteristics?
Welcome to the real world, bub.
Africans don't conform to your pre conceived notions.
Christian period Nubians on a cranial map:
The same Africans populations when their hair is examined
Parallel 1 with Badarian hair:
Meroitic and Christian period Nubians Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. (...) They were black in I6 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in I2, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases.
Parallel 2 with Badarian hair:
Meroitic and Christian period group The average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the N.W. European and East African samples, which are of medium thickness. Of the variables that best distinguish European and African samples, the total Semna sample was closer to the European on average curvature, crimp, and ratio of length.
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases.
Couldn't find my own post yesterday when I searched for it on internet, but managed to find it with the help of the keywords from the original file on my HD:
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji:
quote:The man has straight hair, in his case this indicates Arabian peninsula ancestry
^Also explain how straight hair is indicative of ancestry from the Arabian peninsule, when Amhara's with sometimes as much as 40% J haplogroup, actually have lesser incidences of straight, wavy and curly hair than Somali's have:
quote:According to our own classification, 40 per cent of the Amharas have non-negroid, wavy or curly hair, and the rest frizzly; the non-negroid class among the Gallas is 30 per cent, among the Somalis 86 per cent. Some of the Somalis actually have straight hair.
^According to racist Carleton Coon
Parallel 3 with Badarian hair:
Badarian In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the description of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases.
East African Horn populations: According to our own classification, 40 per cent of the Amharas have non-negroid, wavy or curly hair, and the rest frizzly; the non-negroid class among the Gallas is 30 per cent, among the Somalis 86 per cent. Some of the Somalis actually have straight hair. Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Jablonski agrees that it was evolutionarily advantageous for pre-humans to retain the hair on their heads in order to protect the scalp as they walked upright in the intense African (equatorial) UV light. While some might argue that, by this logic, humans should also express hairy shoulders given that these body parts would putatively be exposed to similar conditions, the protection of the head, the seat of the brain that enabled humanity to become one of the most successful species on the planet (and which also is very vulnerable at birth), was arguably a more urgent issue (axillary hair in the underarms and groin were also retained as signs of sexual maturity). During the gradual process by which Homo erectus made a transition from furry to naked skin, their hair texture putatively changed gradually from straight (the condition of most mammals, including humanity's closest cousins—chimpanzees), to Afro-like or 'kinky' (i.e. tightly coiled). In this sense, during the period in which humans were gradually losing their straight body hair and thereby exposing initially the pale skin underneath their fur to the sun, straight hair would have been an adaptive liability. Hence, tightly coiled or 'kinky' Afro-hair may have evolved to prevent the entry of UV light into the body during the transition toward dark, UV-protected skin.
Alternatively, some intuit that tightly coiled hair that grows into a typical Afro-like formation would have greatly reduced the ability of the head and brain to cool. They reason that although hair density in African peoples is much less than their European counterparts, in the intense sun the effective 'woolly hat' produced would have been a disadvantage. However, anthropologists such as Nina Jablonski make the opposite argument with regards to this hair texture. Specifically, Jablonski's assertions suggest that the adjective "woolly" in reference to Afro-hair is a misnomer to the extent that it connotes the high heat insulation derivable from the true wool of sheep. Instead, the relatively sparse density of Afro-hair, combined with its springy coils actually results in an airy, almost sponge-like effect. This, in turn, Jablonski argues, more likely facilitates an increase in the circulation of cool air onto the scalp. Further, Afro-hair does not respond so easily to moisture and sweat as straight hair. Thus it does not stick to the neck and scalp when wet. Rather, unless totally drenched, it tends to retain its basic springy puffiness. In this sense, the trait may enhance comfort levels in intense equatorial climates compared to straight hair (which, on the other hand, tends to naturally fall over the ears and neck to a degree that provides slightly enhanced comfort levels in cold climates relative to tightly coiled hair).
The first argument suggests that kinky hair was advantageous in any high UV environment, which makes you wonder about those dark-skinned peoples with straighter hair, but the second suggests that moisture may also be a factor (which may explain why Africans living in relatively dry environments are more likely to have straight hair).
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
The average trichometer rating of the twelve mummies sampled here is around 67, still in the curly hair range.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
Wanted to make a thread about African hair morphology a long time ago, but I awaited the accumulation of enough data. Now that we're discussing hair, I might as well sprinkle a few relevant bits of information.
quote:A recent, and long awaited, systematic examination of the protein structure of hairs from Asian, Caucasian and African individuals31 revealed no differences by X-ray analysis in the structure of the hair keratin. This research team also examined the degree of radial swelling of hair of each ethnic grouping when placed in water. Here, African hair exhibited the lowest radial swelling rate and lowest maximum swelling. By contrast, both Asian and Caucasian gave similar statistically higher values, after normalisation for initial shaft diameters. An explanation for this finding remains elusive, particularly in light of the similar x-ray results on protein structure.
Asian hair has the greatest fibre diameter and exhibits a circular sectional profile with a mean ellipticity of approximately 90%, giving it an almost fully circular profile. In contrast, African hair exhibits high inter-individual variability with regard to diameter but also with respect to the degree of ellipticity of the hair fibre cross-section. The mean ellipticity value is closer to 60%, although there is also much variability along the length of the hair fibres. Importantly, one aspect of the cross-sectional profile may be prominently flattened. Together, these features impart an overall shape to African hair that resembles a twisted rod, but also with focal constrictions' along the hair shaft. Caucasian hair fibres however, have an intermediate diameter with a cross-sectional shape that is less oval and with an ellipticity value of 75%.31 As a result, Asian and Caucasian hair fibres are more cylindric than those of Africans. -Hair in Toxicology - An Important Bio-Monitor
Together, these features impart an overall shape to African hair that resembles a twisted rod, but also with focal constrictions' along the hair shaft.
The above calls to mind Eugene Strouhals observations about the hair strands of what he calls ''mized individuals'':
quote:Thanks to the courtesy of Dr Lawrence and Dr Garlick from the Duckworth Laboratory in Cambridge, I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian individuals which were macroscopically curly (spirals of Io-20 mm in diameter) or wavy (25-35 mm). They were studied microscopically by S. Tittelbachova' from the Institute of Anthropology of the Charles University, who found in five out of seven samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its length, sometimes with a simultaneous narrowing of the hair pith. The outline of the crosssections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid influence among the Badarians.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
If you are going to talk this precisely about the dimensions of hair tightly coiled Afro 'kinky' hair is by definition different from "curly hair" of the type which is loosely curled and of different thickness
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Another study on Egyptian hair:
The average trichometer rating of the twelve mummies sampled here is around 67, still in the curly hair range.
Same 1972 study cited on Myra and Zarahan's site, already included into the overall index of 60.02. Though since according to Kalonji's source, since the range stretches a full 17 points, averaging several points above the mean still describes a population well within that range of variation (add to that possible micro-adaptations to an arid environment).
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric:
To be honest, though, I'm not so sure the Egyptians had curly hair on average.
I take it that this guy, by the looks of his hair, must have stood out as a sore thumb from the "average" ancient Egyptian of his day, huh? And what about those ancient Greek testimonials about "wooly hair" in ancient Egyptians, essentially stereotyping Egyptians in that way -- could it be that they were really describing "straight" hair as "wooly" hair?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Hesire,
Original versions:
t
The three wood panels found in the Mastaba tomb of Hesire show Hesire in both straight rowed and curly haired wigs
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: a walk through the alleys of ancient Egypt By Farid Atiya, Abeer El-Shahawy, Matḥaf al-Miṣrī, Farid S. Atiya
p63
#37-39
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Hesire,
Original versions:
Posting the "original" version in reply does what, since after all, the only difference between this and the one I posted, is that the latter is essentially the profile of the figure cropped out from the remainder of the photo? Nothing aside from this, has been altered. Your photo shows the guy still sporting an "Afro".
quote:
The three wood panels found in the Mastaba tomb of Hesire show Hesire in both straight rowed and curly haired wigs
Can't help but notice that you call the "Afro" a "curly haired wig". What evidence do you have of this?
The "Afro" wig would be one of its kind I've ever seen, not to mention that it clearly features that guy's hair line, showing his ear cartilages. Where can I find other good examples of that kind of "Afro" wig, as characterized by the coils shown on Hesire's, and clearly marking his hair line and nicely following the outline of the ear?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correct. If the afro was indeed wig, then the ears would be covered! Virtually all afro type wigs worn by the Egyptians were those that covered the ears. Some Egyptologists believe the covering of ears by wigs is a sign of high status. So the Lyingass's point is lost as usual.
To the author of this thread Sundjata, it's good you pointed out that discrepancy in that passage by Breasted. This is the same James Breasted after all who translated "Nhsw" to mean "negro"! LOL
No doubt the Euronuts take this passage as another sign of "race-war". I can see those fools (like Euronut liar exposed) frothing and further transcribing Breasted's sentence to mean "there is not a remnant of the Nappy-Haired who come to attack him.." LOL
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It'd be nice to see the primary text to know just what the exact spelling is, what glyphs surround the word, and what if any illustration goes with the text.
Lacking that, the variant I find for nebet which most likely is used to describe the Nehesi means twisted or braided, a hairstyle seen in many an image of Nehesi.
Nebd appears in the name of a particular Nehesi people known as Nebdu-qed and is the word on the Tombos Stele of Thutmose I erected near the third cataract and referenced in the opening post.
"Nebet" does not distinguish hair texture implied by the "curly" translation. Mes means a hair curl. Nebt/nebd applies to how the hair is arranged.
Interestingly enough, one meaning of wawat is hair.
I agree. As Sundjata pointed out, braided hair especially elaborate styles was a sign of high-birth in Egypt as also noted by the ancient Greeks. Yet we know there are African peoples further south in the Nile today who wear their hair in braids regardless of status. I believe the name may imply a certain style of braids that these people wore. By the way, didn't Wally try to translate Nebet to "nappy" before? LOL Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Correct. If the afro was indeed wig, then the ears would be covered! Virtually all afro type wigs worn by the Egyptians were those that covered the ears. Some Egyptologists believe the covering of ears by wigs is a sign of high status. So the Lyingass's point is lost as usual.
The image simply corroborates ancient Greek historians' caricaturization of hair texture amongst ancient Egyptians. Otherwise one would have to assume that the visual instances of "Afro hair" in ancient Egyptian art just so happen to be the capturing anomalous occasions, and that the Greeks too were mis-characterizing "straight" hair as "woolly hair".
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Good point. Whether the woolly hair were wigs or their own hair, the point is the Egyptians had woolly hair.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
I don't know that many people who go around wearing "wigs" that are vastly distinct in texture from their own, for that matter.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Can't help but notice that you call the "Afro" a "curly haired wig". What evidence do you have of this?
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: a walk through the alleys of ancient Egypt By Farid Atiya, Abeer El-Shahawy, Matḥaf al-Miṣrī, Farid S. Atiya
>>>p63
(images #37-39)
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:I don't know that many people who go around wearing "wigs" that are vastly distinct in texture from their own, for that matter.
Then that probably means you don't know the Ancient Egyptians, per your own words.
It was a practice of many Ancient Egyptians to shave their scalp hair and wear wigs for decorative and hygienic reasons.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Can't help but notice that you call the "Afro" a "curly haired wig". What evidence do you have of this?
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: a walk through the alleys of ancient Egypt By Farid Atiya, Abeer El-Shahawy, Matḥaf al-Miṣrī, Farid S. Atiya
>>>p63
(images #37-39)
On what do they base that those are wigs? I mean those are reliefs and statues.
I like to know what the people look like who have put that book together. And what are their credentials?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^It appears to be a wig as evinced from the fact that he has a different hair-style in each tomb scene and to the extent which the hair looks completely different. Afros don't hang, in image 38 his hair is long and free flowing (however, they look as though they can be locks) while in image 39 he has an afro again but this time it covers his ears and actually looks curlier. Either way, Egyptians used human hair, so whatever.
BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: If you are going to talk this precisely about the dimensions of hair tightly coiled Afro 'kinky' hair is by definition different from "curly hair" of the type which is loosely curled and of different thickness
So what about when its somewhat in between? Is that posible?
Or is there a "BORDERLINE", do you have this?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^^
quote:BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
OR, we can always ruin the thread by blabbering over trivialities with a clearly incompetent objector.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^It appears to be a wig as evinced from the fact that he has a different hair-style in each tomb scene and to the extent which the hair looks completely different. Afros don't hang, in image 38 his hair is long and free flowing (however, they look as though they can be locks) while in image 39 he has an afro again but this time it covers his ears and actually looks curlier. Either way, Egyptians used human hair, so whatever.
BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
There ara many types of Afro hair. The way it is nurtured, styled makes it softer or "less soft" or whatever. Depending from person to person. And traditionally it can be dependable on place/ region. That is all I am going to say.
And that person is obviously not black! Or a so-called African American.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^^
quote:BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
OR, we can always ruin the thread by blabbering over trivialities with a clearly incompetent objector.
It may come off as such, incompetent objector, but the input it is for sure of relevance.
The indication was it is either this... or that.... Which is somewhat laughable.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^It appears to be a wig as evinced from the fact that he has a different hair-style in each tomb scene and to the extent which the hair looks completely different. Afros don't hang, in image 38 his hair is long and free flowing (however, they look as though they can be locks) while in image 39 he has an afro again but this time it covers his ears and actually looks curlier. Either way, Egyptians used human hair, so whatever.
BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
Are you implying he could not have had different hair styles during his lifespan? But only one particular hair style? Or do I interpret you wrongly? No offend.
And even those were wigs, it had to come from somewhere.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Afrocentric Liars Exposed: LOL!! Look at you doing all sorts of gymnastics to "reconcile" what contradicts your belief in Black Egypt. Clearly, you have no academic honesty for the mere fact, you are trying to force the information to conform to your nonsensical belief.
You guys are off the chain!!!
Xenophobe, I understand your obsession with ancient Egypt, but your history is at the forests and the caves of Europe! Be proud of that! Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
I don't think that matters at all. Not that I dismiss it being a Wig but his different hair styles could have been manipulated similar to how Africans sport and Afro one day and Braid their hair another day.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^It appears to be a wig as evinced from the fact that he has a different hair-style in each tomb scene and to the extent which the hair looks completely different. Afros don't hang, in image 38 his hair is long and free flowing (however, they look as though they can be locks) while in image 39 he has an afro again but this time it covers his ears and actually looks curlier. Either way, Egyptians used human hair, so whatever.
BTW, If I were you, I wouldn't respond to lioness.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^As you can see, I've considered that. I just think a wig is more plausible. Of course, this is only my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Are you implying he could not have had different hair styles during his lifespan? But only one particular hair style? Or do I interpret you wrongly? No offend.
And even those were wigs, it had to come from somewhere.
What I am saying, or what I have considered is the same thing that both you and Jari have addressed after the fact, hence my entertaining that the second photo looked like locks. The said 'locks' would still require that he grew his hair out and then later cut it to reform into another Afro. Not out of the question, I just don't think using the example of modern hair styles are particularly useful, at least in every instance. There's a problem here with chronology and trends in AA hairstyles change every decade. We don't know whether or not AEs sported the exact same hair styles as modern AAs, but we do know they wore wigs.
I've already mentioned as well that the wigs were made from human hair so it wouldn't matter.
BTW, This was an opinion and not something I'm looking to voraciously defend or extensively discuss.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^As you can see, I've considered that. I just think a wig is more plausible. Of course, this is only my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Are you implying he could not have had different hair styles during his lifespan? But only one particular hair style? Or do I interpret you wrongly? No offend.
And even those were wigs, it had to come from somewhere.
What I am saying, or what I have considered is the same thing that both you and Jari have addressed after the fact, hence my entertaining that the second photo looked like locks. The said 'locks' would still require that he grew his hair out and then later cut it to reform into another Afro. Not out of the question, I just don't think using the example of modern hair styles are particularly useful, at least in every instance. There's a problem here with chronology and trends in AA hairstyles change every decade. We don't know whether or not AEs sported the exact same hair styles as modern AAs, but we do know they wore wigs.
I've already mentioned as well that the wigs were made from human hair so it wouldn't matter. This was an opinion and not something I'm looking to voraciously defend or extensively discuss.
I see so, I merely gave an example of Lauryn Hill with the Afro> Braids> Twists > Dreads >Afro > Braids. etc...
It has nothing to do with AA hairstyles, it just happend that I picked someone populair like her, so everybody would understand. Instead of someone local, I happen to know.
But I know people who had several hairstyles with in one decade.
Beside from this being modern. The fact is that he could have had multiple styles overtime.
And with the right conditioners which can be natural, you can get locks out. Twist it, braid it ,and or, grow an Afro that big with in a year. I know a chick like that.
Not that it happend like that, but hypothetically this is possible. Fact is that he sports different styles of hairdo. Trendsetter or follower?
Another fact is that the wigs are made from human hair, plus we know who sports these hairstyles up till this day and time.
But seriously how can one be sure whether it is a wig or not, when it's carved in stone? This is what I am wondering about.
Interesting would be to study fashion and trends/ fads of that time. I never looked at it like that. Have you?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Yes indeed, be quiet.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Please don't bait her.
Ish, this is an example of why I hold the opinion I hold:
quote:And with the right conditioners which can be natural, you can get locks out. Twist it, braid it ,and or, grow an Afro that big with in a year. I know a chick like that.
See, this takes many more assumptions than simply assuming something that is more familiar with its time period (a wig). This speaks to the parsimony principle first established in Occam's razor that the simplest solution is usually the best. Instead of constantly switching between hairstyles by sporting a fro, twisting the fro into perfect locks and growing them out, using some unidentified relaxer to unlock and consciously using less conditioning to achieve a more curly/natural hair type in the last image, seems to require more explaining than the idea that these are 3 different wigs used in separate ritualistic or social contexts.
But as you say, it's **possible** that these all represent his natural hair.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Actually it is forbidden to take photo or film footages in Cairo museum. So that person was just very lucky. They are fierce on this issue.
Nice. It seems then that we owe him/her a debt of gratitude for their sacrifice.
Yes, the Beja are one of the groups close to/ direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians.
This is why I showed several pics of them.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Correct. The Beja nomads have occupied the area of the Red Sea hills of southeastern Egypt, northeastern Sudan, and northern Eritrea for millennia. Even many archaeologists have identified the Beja as being the direct descendants of the Medjay allies of the Egyptians. Egyptologist Toby Wilkinson even surmises that they were ancestral to pharaonic culture based on predynastic findings in the eastern desert.
One thing I noticed about the video above is that the wigs of the Amun priests which are featured bear a striking resemblance to the hairstyles of high status Beja men in that they consist of Afros with braids hanging in the bottom. The only difference really is the size where the Amun priest wigs are significantly larger and I'm assuming were made from the hairs of more than one man for such a size. It makes me wonder if the Beja's ancestors had some deep connection to the Amun cult.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Good observation Djehuti.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Can't help but notice that you call the "Afro" a "curly haired wig". What evidence do you have of this?
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: a walk through the alleys of ancient Egypt By Farid Atiya, Abeer El-Shahawy, Matḥaf al-Miṣrī, Farid S. Atiya
>>>p63
(images #37-39)
You merely cited a source that uses the same images I confronted you on earlier. How does that help you answer this?...
"Originally posted by The Explorer:
Can't help but notice that you call the "Afro" a "curly haired wig". What evidence do you have of this?
The "Afro" wig would be one of its kind I've ever seen, not to mention that it clearly features that guy's hair line, showing his ear cartilages. Where can I find other good examples of that kind of "Afro" wig, as characterized by the coils shown on Hesire's, and clearly marking his hair line and nicely following the outline of the ear?" -end quote.
The book is just another person's personal opinion, which is about as valuable to me as your very own that I'm challenging. Or were you under the impression that because you were citing somebody who has published a book, that this automatically renders that somebody an infallible all-knowing personality who is above challenging? And saying that the guy sported different "hair styles" has no bearing on the above either, nor offers proof that the "Afro" on display is fake hair. Try harder with a better thought-out reason and evidential support that would unequivocally render that Afro as just another "wig".
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^the issue is uncertain,
sorry about this
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
It is not uncertain from where I'm standing.
Ps: Just to give you an idea of how to interpret images in your link, take the following for instance:
There is very little that masks the prospect that hair on image "39"' is that of a wig; the texture of the top-end of the hair is visibly distinct from that of the rest of the hair, not to leave out its "rectangular" patterns of texture on the remainder of the hair. The hair also visibly covers the guy's ears.
One can make a case that hair on image "38" may well be the artist's intention to convey hair fixed up into locks, given the featuring of super-straight and thick strands of individual hair. Furthermore, the hair totally covers up the ear, like the case in image "39". However, given the slight convex hair-cut on the terminal portion near the neck, greater chance is that it is yet another wig, instead of merely locked hair.
Only hair on image "37", the primary subject of our discussion, is featured by coil-like textures, apparently meant to convey fairly curled up hair strands that is generally characteristic of "Afro" hair. The terminal portion of hair here, near the neck, is also visibly more rounded than those of either image "38" or "39"; again, the effect is seemingly targeted at making the viewer mindful that the hair in question is an "Afro". Hair on image "37" has a relatively more ovular profile than either those of image "38" or "39". Hair on image "37" is also the only one of the bunch, wherein the viewer is able to see the ear of Hesire, with just the tinny topmost tip of the ear partially hidden under the hair mass.
Thus, as demonstrated, several things make hair on image "37" stand out from the other examples.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Whenever the Lyingass looses an argument (which is always), she then goes with this ridiculous cop-out that it is "uncertain".
It is very much certain that Hesira below has his natural afro hair.
^ As noted by the realistic curls and the exposure of his ear.
This below is a wig, due to the unrealistic square like texture and the ear being covered, which again is symbolic of high status.
perankhgroup.com/hesire.jpg[/IMG]
Get over it.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
BUMP
Anyone remember this thread?
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo edited by Abdeer el- Shahawy
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
How anyone can determine that an art piece's coiffure is natural or treated hair or a wig is far beyond me, even when temple texture mismatches the rest of the head.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
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