Simple answer is that they do. It is just that when people see images of Egyptians it is usually the population of Cairo. Also, the population has evolved over time due to various cultural and climatic changes. Dynastic Egypt was a long time ago. Skin pigmentation, hair, etc, can change significantly especially with gene flow from non-African countries. It doesn't take a lot of gene flow to impact phenotype since sexual selection can have a cultural impentus. Cultural sexual selection can result in a preference for certain phenotype expressions resulting in a higher representation of a particular appearance in the population in a very short time. African Americans are a good example of how quickly phenotypes can change even when gene flow is resisted. It has only been a few decades that admixture between Black and White in America was permitted by law.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
so how many native africans that still live in egypt in egypt? or the overall african black population? you aright you tend to see mostly the population of cairo,but do you have the population breakdown of the native african population.it's hard to find you know.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
Fellah
Comprising 60% of the Egyptian population, the fellahin lead humble lives and continue to live in mud-brick houses like their ancient ancestors. Their percentage was much higher in the early 20th century, before the large influx of Egyptian fellahin into urban towns and cities. In 1927, anthropologist Winifred Blackman, author of The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, conducted ethnographic research on the life of Upper Egyptian farmers and concluded that there were observable continuities between the cultural and religious beliefs and practices of the fellahin and those of ancient Egyptians.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
fellah simply means farmer, there are Fellahahin in Lower Egypt who are lighter skinned than the Darker Fellahin in Upper Egypt.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
MODERN EGYPT Identity-
The degree to which Egyptians identify with each layer of Egypt's history in articulating a sense of collective identity can vary. Questions of identity came to fore in the 20th century as Egyptians sought to free themselves from British occupation, leading to the rise of ethno-territorial secular Egyptian nationalism (also known as "Pharaonism"). After Egyptians gained their independence from Britain, other forms of nationalism developed, including secular Arab nationalism (including pan-Arabism) and Islamism.
"Pharaonism" has its roots in the 19th century and rose to prominence in the 1920s and 1930s. It looked to Egypt's pre-Islamic past and argued that Egypt was part of a larger Mediterranean civilization. This ideology stressed the role of the Nile River and the Mediterranean. Pharaonism's most notable advocate was Taha Hussein. It became the dominant mode of expression of Egyptian anti-colonial activists of the pre- and inter-war periods:
What is most significant [about Egypt in this period] is the absence of an Arab component in early Egyptian nationalism. The thrust of Egyptian political, economic, and cultural development throughout the nineteenth century worked against, rather than for, an "Arab" orientation... This situation—that of divergent political trajectories for Egyptians and Arabs—if anything increased after 1900.
In 1931, following a visit to Egypt, Syrian Arab nationalist Sati' al-Husri remarked that "[Egyptians] did not possess an Arab nationalist sentiment; did not accept that Egypt was a part of the Arab lands, and would not acknowledge that the Egyptian people were part of the Arab nation."[23] The later 1930s would become a formative period for Arab nationalism in Egypt, in large part due to efforts by Syrian/Palestinian/Lebanese intellectuals.[24] Nevertheless, a year after the establishment of the League of Arab States in 1945, to be headquartered in Cairo, Oxford University historian H. S. Deighton was still writing:
The Egyptians are not Arabs, and both they and the Arabs are aware of this fact. They are Arabic-speaking, and they are Muslim —indeed religion plays a greater part in their lives than it does in those either of the Syrians or the Iraqi. But the Egyptian, during the first thirty years of the [twentieth] century, was not aware of any particular bond with the Arab East... Egypt sees in the Arab cause a worthy object of real and active sympathy and, at the same time, a great and proper opportunity for the exercise of leadership, as well as for the enjoyment of its fruits. But she is still Egyptian first and Arab only in consequence, and her main interests are still domestic.
One of the most prominent Egyptian nationalists and anti-Arabists was Egypt's most notable writer of the 20th century, Taha Hussein. He expressed his disagreement with Arab unity and his beliefs in Egyptian nationalism on multiple occasions. In one of his most well known articles, written in 1933 in the magazine "Kawkab el Sharq", he wrote saying:
Pharaonism is deeply rooted in the spirits of the Egyptians. It will remain so, and it must continue and become stronger. The Egyptian is Pharaonic before being Arab. Egypt must not be asked to deny its Pharaonism because that would mean: Egypt, destroy your Sphinx and your pyramids, forget who you are and follow us! Do not ask of Egypt more than it can offer. Egypt will never become part of some Arab unity, whether the capital [of this unity] were to be Cairo, Damascus, or Baghdad.
Some contemporary prominent Egyptians who oppose Arab nationalism or the idea that Egyptians are Arabs include Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities Zahi Hawass,[32] popular writer Osama Anwar Okasha, Egyptian-born Harvard University Professor Leila Ahmed, Member of Parliament Suzie Greiss,[33] in addition to different local groups and intellectuals.[34] This understanding is also expressed in other contexts,[35][36] such as Neil DeRosa's novel Joseph's Seed in his depiction of an Egyptian character "who declares that Egyptians are not Arabs and never will be."
Egyptian critics of Arab nationalism contend that it has worked to erode and/or relegate native Egyptian identity by superimposing only one aspect of Egypt's culture. These views and sources for collective identification in the Egyptian state are captured in the words of a linguistic anthropologist who conducted fieldwork in Cairo:
Historically, Egyptians have considered themselves as distinct from 'Arabs' and even at present rarely do they make that identification in casual contexts; il-'arab [the Arabs] as used by Egyptians refers mainly to the inhabitants of the Gulf states... Egypt has been both a leader of pan-Arabism and a site of intense resentment towards that ideology. Egyptians had to be made, often forcefully, into "Arabs" [during the Nasser era] because they did not historically identify themselves as such. Egypt was self-consciously a nation not only before pan-Arabism but also before becoming a colony of the British Empire. Its territorial continuity since ancient times, its unique history as exemplified in its pharaonic past and later on its Coptic language and culture, had already made Egypt into a nation for centuries. Egyptians saw themselves, their history, culture and language as specifically Egyptian and not "Arab."
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: fellah simply means farmer, there are Fellahahin in Lower Egypt who are lighter skinned than the Darker Fellahin in Upper Egypt.
DO YOU HAVE any info on census count for the egyptian ethnic population? it's hard to find.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: fellah simply means farmer, there are Fellahahin in Lower Egypt who are lighter skinned than the Darker Fellahin in Upper Egypt.
DO YOU HAVE any info on census count for the egyptian ethnic population? it's hard to find.
No, I don't. The questions is do Egyptians break down between ethnicity(Black, White etc) in their census?? Last I checked they only go by nationality I.E Egyptians, Nubians, Greeks, etc.
Like I said in another thread you would have to go to cities like Luxor and Aswan to see the darker Egyptians. All though from my conversations with Egyptians here the Lighter Lower Egyptians outnumber the Darker ones. Which would make sense seeing how the two most populated cities resides in Lower Egypt(Luxor and Cairo).
If I were to speculate and take a guess I would say the non "Black" Egyptians are about 60+ % of the whole population, maybe the Darker ones comprise of about I would guess maybe 15-20%. Again Im guessing and I know for a fact Im wrong but I know the "Wheat Skinned" Egyptian with Frizzy/Curly hair is the norm in Egypt.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
No need to talk in abstract terms. There are hundreds if not thousands of photos of modern Egyptians all over the net now due to the current protests. Take a look and see for yourself what modern Egyptians look like.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Ahmed Zaki.
"He broke the color barrier in Egyptian films by being the first Black actor to play leading roles usually reserved for light-skinned actors."
^ strange in that he looks no different than most Egyptians.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
osirion - You are so dense.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ cereberal density is a sign of intelligence. Strange that such a term as dense or hard headed is suppose to be derogatory.
I don't believe you are what you purport to be. You are a White person that has been influenced by Black culture. Are you having fun playing the part?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
It is a dumb question but obviously modern Egypt is not ancient Egypt.
I am always impressed by the tremendous cross section of faces I see in the photos from Egypt.
Lets hope they can move ahead and build a future for themselves and be proud of honoring their rich history.
But again, most people forget that Islam is multi ethnic to begin with, so I am not surprised at how distorted the views on things are by some folks in America.
quote: Approximately 50 countries are Muslim-majority.[2] Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in Asia, with over 683 million adherents in such countries as Indonesia (the largest Muslim country by population, home to 15.6% of the world's Muslims[8]), Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh (all three being successor states to the former British Raj).[2][9] About 20% of Muslims live in Arab countries.[10] In the Middle East, the non-Arab countries of Turkey and Iran are the largest Muslim-majority countries; in Africa, Egypt and Nigeria have the most populous Muslim communities.
This is an interesting topic all of its own but gets back to my initial post on this thread -- cultural pressures.
The fact that Egyptians discriminate against the more indigenous African features does support my position that in situ evolution could account for much of the diversity that lacks genetic inflow.
Ahmed Zaki is considered are star by the lower class of Egyptians such as the Fellahin. We also suspect that the poor are more likely to be native African people - a better representation of indigenous Egyptian people than the upper class.
It is interesting that while I actually see his color as normal Egyptian color but clearly if you watch Egyptian movies he is significantly darker than the average actors. Yet his skin color is much more like that of the Ancients.
And the Egyptians consider him Black makes for a very interesting discussion.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is a dumb question but obviously modern Egypt is not ancient Egypt.
There's a lot of misinformation about Egyptians so we shouldn't be surprised by dumb questions. The point I was trying to make is that native Egyptians do exist in Egypt. Many of them look just like the ancient depictions of Egyptians. It is just that the Lower Egyptian population is over-represented in the media. As the Lioness mentioned, native Egyptians are discriminated against. Dark skin color is associated with poverty and these people are looked down on. Things have changed over time but it is still in their culture and I imagine the discrimination is very significant for Women. Dark skinned Egyptian Women probably are not well desired. Great business oppourtunity there for skin lightening creames.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Ahmed zaki represents the majoirty of fellahien of the nile delta. He is considered ASMR(BROWN). ASWID(BLACK) is the color they would classify for someone from sudan for example. However among the elite you would find that any one who is asmar or aswid and speaks eygptian dialect would automatically be classified as if they nubian(ignorance among the elite). Here are some upper egyptian artists/actors who have made it into the Arab music industry(key word, I said arab music industry not Egyptian; why because the arab music industry in egypt is made to serve the middle east not Egyptians per say. If you look at either the music or movie industry housed in egypt, you find many of these actors and artists will tell you, they have ancestry to turks, syrian, armanian,etc...)
Black Thelema...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEi-IFVnno&feature=fvwrel
KEEP IN MIND THESE ARE UPPER EGYPTIANS.. WHO WERE ABLE TO BREAK THE BARRIERS OF YOUR TYPICAL ARAB ARTISTS.
Most felahien in the Nile delta look like Ahmed Zaki. Light skinned does not automatically say that an Egyptian does not have any african admixture. You find many Egyptians in Cairo who are light skinned but have nappy hair or features that signify some sort of admixture.
One more thing, I dont know if any of you know of any east African(eritian,somalian,ethiopian,etc..) and European mixed individuals, but when you look at them, they would look no different than a Nile delta Egyptian.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is a dumb question but obviously modern Egypt is not ancient Egypt.
There's a lot of misinformation about Egyptians so we shouldn't be surprised by dumb questions. The point I was trying to make is that native Egyptians do exist in Egypt. Many of them look just like the ancient depictions of Egyptians. It is just that the Lower Egyptian population is over-represented in the media. As the Lioness mentioned, native Egyptians are discriminated against. Dark skin color is associated with poverty and these people are looked down on. Things have changed over time but it is still in their culture and I imagine the discrimination is very significant for Women. Dark skinned Egyptian Women probably are not well desired. Great business oppourtunity there for skin lightening creames.
But Osirion - who asked that question. Why would anybody ask the question when it has already been discussed on the forum for many years that modern Egyptians especially of southern Egypt still have lots of Pharaonic ancestry while Lower Egypt has had a mix of probably two dozen different peoples along with indigenous blood.
I think everybody already knows that many Egyptians have traits of resemblance to Beja and Ethiopian type people that once occupied ancient Egypt, north and south. So why is this question being asked for the umpteenth time.
It seems to me like you are trying to convince yourself of something.
Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
