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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Poland still has a black icon of the Madonna and her son, the Christian deity as a baby.

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I walked into the Chapel during mass, an incomprehensible sermon that only confirmed my distance from my own Polish ancestry. I joined what seemed to be a line of people waiting to see the icon. Strangely, those in the front seemed unusually short. My husband gestured at the crutches on the wall, and we thought we understood.

By the time we reached the front of the line, we realized that these visitors from Poland, Brazil, Spain and seemingly every other Catholic country were walking on their knees over the hard marble floor. They began to sing in many languages, “Czerna Madonna,” “Schwarze Madonna,” “Black Madonna.”

We circled the nave, the priests immobile and enraptured, the icon heavy with a nation’s burden. I felt like a fake, a religious dilettante, as I sang along, but it was impossible not to be affected.

Every great figure of Polish history has made the pilgrimage to see the Black Madonna. The newly elected Pope John Paul II preached there at the beginning of the Solidarity Movement in a thinly veiled anti-communist appeal. Lech Walesa flew here the day after his inauguration, as the first president of a democratic Poland, to thank the Black Madonna in person.

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The Black Madonna and the Destiny of The Polish Nation

Who is the “Black Madonna of Czestochowa”? What is her place in the hearts of the Polish people and of the Polish nation? What part did she play in defending the faith and culture of Poland in the second half of the 20th century?

Our Lady of Czestochowa is most aptly described as the Mother of the Polish Nation. It is she who is sent by God to protect her Polish sons and daughters from every “confrontation” that “…lies within the plans of Divine Providence” (Karol Cardinal Wojyla, Farewell address 1976 Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia)

She is the “Woman” promised in Genesis 3:15 who comes to comfort, love and guide her children, as “…in God's Plan”, they confront every trial which the Church “…must take up, and face courageously.”(ibid)

The Black Madonna of Czestochowa icon was, according to legend, painted by St. Luke on a cypress table top taken from the house of the Holy Family. In this beautiful icon, the Blessed Virgin Mary manifests both her humility and shows us our path by pointing with her right hand to Jesus, the source of our salvation.

In the 17th century, she saved the Jasnan Gora monastery from The Deluge, changing the course of the war in the fight against the Swedish invasion. In thanksgiving for this great favour from Heaven, King Jan Kazimierz crowned the Black Madonna as Queen and Protector of Poland in the Cathedral of Lwow on April 1, 1656. From that moment on, she became the “Mother of the Polish Nation” serving as the icon of unity for all her Polish children.

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A German correspondent, resident in New York City,
wrote me as regards the Black Virgin of her native
land Bavaria, saying that for years she has been
trying to tell Americans that Christ and the Virgin
Mary were black but they would not believe her, "Every
Catholic knows that Santa Maria was an Aethiopan."

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I myself was born in a strictly Catholic country
in South Germany and in our churches the biggest
reference is given to Santa Maria as Mother of God,
and we have statues of the Madonna as well as pictures,
which are the original sculpyures or paintings on
wood and stone, dating as far back as 800 to 1000
years and more.

The faces of these images are black and of Negroid
type, particularly the Madonnas of Constuchen in
Tolers and the Mother of God statue in Alt-Olting
in Bavaria near Munich, which was brought from
Palstine more than 1000 years ago by Ritter von
Heiligers Lande.

These two Madonnas particularly are held in the
highest esteem in Catholic countries and hundreds
of thousands of pilgrims go to these places to do
homage to the Mother of Christ every year and
wonderful healings of all kinds of illnesses are
reported to the public.

Every Catholic knows that Santa Maria was an Aethiopian.

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THE BLACK MADONNA OF EAST 13TH STREET by Joseph Sciorra



In the early twentieth century, Sicilian immigrants established a storefront chapel for the Black Madonna del Tindari in Manhattan’s East Village. The original Sicilian statue of the Virgin Mary dates back to the Middle Ages and is associated with a passage from the Old Testament’s Song of Songs. For decades, an annual feast was celebrated in the city streets in honor of this dark-skinned Madonna. Although the New York community of believers no longer exists and the chapel has been closed, the American statue has been saved and is now in a private home in New Jersey.

Devotion to the Black Madonna has long existed in Europe. The various aspects of the dark-skinned Virgin Mary are considered miraculously powerful and are credited with having protected believers from such afflictions as earthquakes, pestilence, and the attacks of invading armies. Representations of the Black Madonna in European art depict her with a dark complexion but not "African" facial features; thus they are different from the religious images developed for local communities in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

Italy has one of the highest concentrations of Black Madonnas in all of Europe, and they are known by their gradations of skin color: nera (black), scura (dark), or bruna (tawny). The millions of Italian laborers who emigrated to the United States from 1880s to the 1920s brought their religious beliefs and practices to the New World, especially their profound devotion to the Blessed Mother, who also arrived in the form of the Madonna Nera. In particular, the cult of the Sicilian Madonna del Tindari took root in the New York metropolitan area.

Tindari is part of the municipality of Patti in the province of Messina, in northeastern Sicily. The Greeks founded the city of Tyndaris in the fourth century B.C., and the sanctuary to the Madonna was built where once stood a temple to the fertility goddess Cybele, also known as the "Great Mother."

According to a popular legend, a polychromed cedar statue was brought to Sicily from the Middle East sometime in the eighth or ninth century to save it from destruction during the Iconoclastic Wars. Yet the statue is similar in style to the Romanesque "throne of wisdom" figure, with the seated infant Jesus enthroned on his mother’s lap, created in Europe during the twelfth century.

At some point in time, the Latin words Nigra sum sed formosa ("I am black but beautiful") were inscribed on the base of the statue. This phrase is taken from the Old Testament’s Song of Songs, in which a captive shepherdess declares her love for a young shepherd to the women of King Solomon’s court. As with much of the scholarship on the origins of the Black Madonna, there is significant disagreement over the relationship of this biblical phrase to the dark figure. Feminist historian Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum maintains that the expression is a testament to the image’s Semitic antecedents. Jungian analyst Ean Begg notes that the French abbot and theologian St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) compared the shepherdess’ love to that of Mary in his influential writings; as a result, the sunburned shepherdess and Mary were conflated and images were darkened to illustrate the connection. Cultural studies scholar Monique Scheer, on the other hand, argues persuasively that Europeans, and in particular Germans, coupled the saying and images of the dark Virgin in the eighteenth century as they developed the concept of a unique "Black Madonna" and sought a theological explanation to counter the then-popularly held negative association with blackness.

In fact, it is not until 1751 that someone in Tindari distinctly mentions the statue’s color and also associates it with race. Abbot Spitaleri wrote with hyperbolic language of the "exceedingly miraculous image of the Most Holy Mary, who with marvelous portent came from Africa...which, in fact, is extremely black" (immagine miracolosissima di Maria Santissima con stupendo portento venuta dall’Africa...che in effetto è negrissima). Contemporary devotees recount a sacred narrative that illustrates the negative sentiments held at times for the Black Madonna del Tindari. According to the story, a woman made a pilgrimage to the sanctuary to give thanks for the miraculous healing of her daughter, and upon seeing the statue’s dark visage, she exclaimed, "I traveled so far to see someone uglier than me" (Sono partita da lontano per vedere una più brutta di me). The woman proclaimed her rekindled devotion to the Black Madonna after the Virgin Mary saved her child a second time.

. . . .

Three small private chapels exist on East 13th Street, New York, which is a center of Sicilians. One of these chapels, dedicated to St. Sebastian, patron saint of Minstretta, Sicily, is located at 513 East 13th Street and has been open to the public for the past 10 years. The second is the "Cappella Cattolica M. di SS. Assunta e V. B. Rosalia", at 426 East 13th Street, formerly annexed to, which is the "Cappella Maria SS. del Tindari", at 447 East 13th Street.

...

Of the three chapels, the oldest and therefore the most mysterious—since the original pioneers are deceased—is that of the Black Madonna. The Madonna is a reproduction, none too well done, of an ancient statue venerated at in Tindari, formerly an ancient city in the northerneastern part of Sicily and today a small village in the province of Messina. The original Madonna which was buried in the mountains near Tindari to save it from Turkish Saracen invasions in the seventh ninth century, was black, not because it lay moldering in flames, but as homage to the biblical description "Nigra sum, sed formosa"—"I am black, but beautiful".

The festivity of the Black Madonna was celebrated for the first time in New York on September 8, 1905. The following year, 1906, a congregation of Pattesi was established and the now existing statue of the Black Madonna was constructed under their sponsorship by Santo Bucca of Barcellona, Sicily. Though the original statue was in wood (of Libano cedar of Lebanon), the present image here in New York was constructed of stucco.

...

According to George Chinnici, the statue measures forty-seven inches from the base to the top of Mary’s head; the crown adds another eleven inches to the overall figure. The statue is clearly different stylistically from the one found in Tindari and, for that matter, Hoboken. The facial features of the Chinnici statue are rendered in a naturalistic fashion, with glass eyes, and skin coloring (and hair) that is jet black, whereas the Sicilian original has an elongated, oval face with unpainted, seemingly closed eyes, and a dark brown coloring. The infant Jesus sits on Mary’s left leg, instead of being centered directly in her lap, as in the Sicilian statue.

. . . .

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It was perhaps from this country Egypt that the
worship of the black Virgin and Child came into
Italy and where it still prevails. It was the
worship of the mother of God, Jesus, the savior;
Bacchus in Greece; Adonis in Syria; Krishna in
India; coming into Italy through the medium of
the two Ethiopias, she was, as the Ethiopians
were, black, and such she still remains.

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In all the Romish countries of Europe, in France
Italy, Germany, etc., the God, Christ, as well as
his Mother are described in the old pictures to be
black. The infant God in the arms of his black mother,
his eyes and drapery white, is, himself, perfectly
black.

If the reader doubts my word he may go to the
Cathedral at Moulins -- to the famus Chapel of
the Virgin of Loretto, to the Church of the
Annunciata; the Church of St. Lazaro, or the
Church of St. Stephen at Genoa; to St. Fransisco
at Pisa; to the Church at Brixen in the Tyrol,
and at Padua; to the Church of St. Theodore at
Munich, in the last two of which the whiteness
of the eyes and teeth and the studied redness
of he lips are observable; to a church and to
the Cathedral at Augsburg, where are a black
Virgin and Child as large as life; to the
Borghese Chapel, Maria Maggiore; to a small
Chapel of St. Peter's on the right hand side
on entering near the door; and, in fact, to
almost innumerable other churches in countries
professing the Romish religion.

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There is scarcely an old church in Italy where some
remains of the worship of the Black Virgin and Child
are not to be met with. Very often the black figures
have given way to white ones and in these cases the
black ones, as being held sacred, were put in retired
places in the churches, but were not destroyed, and
are yet to be found there.

In many cases the images were painted all over and
look like bronze; but the pictures in great numbers
are to be seen, where the whites of the eyes and
teeth, and the lips a little tinged with red, like
the black figures in the Museum of the India Company,
show that there is no imitation of bronze.

In many instances these images and pictures, not
all one color, of very dark brown, are so dark as
to look black.

They are generally esteemed by the rabble with the
most profound veneration. the toes are often white,
the brown or black paint being kissed away by the
devotees, and the white wood left.

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When circumstances have been named to the Romish
priests they have endeavored to disguise the fact
by pretending that the child had become black by
the smoke of the candles; but it was black where
th smoke of the candle never came; and besides
how came the candles not to blacken the white
teeth and the shirt, and how came they to redden
the lips?

The Mother is, the author believes, always black
when the child is. Their real blackness is not to
be questioned for a moment.

As regards the statement that the color of the Black
Virgins is due to smoke of burning candles, it may
be said further that this does not account for the
Negroid faces of some of these Virgins, and also for
those paintings in which the Madonna is shown as
black and Negroid.

The Cardiff Museum has one such painting and there
is also one in the Chateau of Azay-le-Rideau. At
Sales (Cantal) a tapestry shows the figures of
the Holy Family black, save that of the Infant
Jesus. On a church window at L'Oise, a Virgin with
a black face is holding a rose colored Christ.

. . . .

... anything more striking than the fact of the
Black Virgin and Child being so common in the
Romish countries of Europe? A Black Virgin and
Child among the white Germans, Swiss, French,
and Italians!!

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Interesting. I guess the concept was taken as a package, from the Kemetic inspirational source.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

feet the color of burnt brass (Rev. 1:14,15)

So many religiously theme threads must be the holidayz

But it is reasonable to suppose that Catholics would be the biggest Afronut for a Black Jesus and Mary as the begining of their church was closer to the Kemetic religions than it's splinters.

Oh Altakruri if you could please provide some info on the Hebrew's being blessed Black as a Raven a new poster is looking for some answers.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I found an interesting site about the Black Madonnas in Europe being associated with the founding of the Knights Templar -

http://www.ancientquest.com/embark/blackvirgin.html

"There is also a strong religious folk tradition connecting the Black Virgins to the medieval Knights Templar and also with Mary Magdelene. A famous Black Virgin - la Madone des Fenestres (the Madonna of the Windows), near St-Martin-de-Vesubie (one site where many Templars were massacred) was believed by folk tradition in the area to have originally been brought to southern France by Mary Magdelene. Whether such legends spring from a kernel of truth, or are purely legendary, it is still intriguing to examine the sheer number of such place-names, legends, and beliefs about these subjects and their interconnections, at least in the popular mind. And that in itself says something.

St. Bernard of Clairvaux was born at Fontaines on the outskirts of Dijon, a place said to have had its own Black Virgin. He is said to have received three drops of milk taken from the breast of the Black Virgin of Chatillon while still a boy. He later went on to help the Templar order expand quickly and to preach the Second Crusade - from Vezelay, a centre of the cult of the Magdalene and a Black Virgin site. After his death, he was canonized on the same feast day, 20 August, as the founder of another major Black Virgin site - St. Amadour of Rocamadour.

In Southern Provençal tradition, the Black Madonna is associated with St. Sara, the patron saint of the Gypsies. She was said to be the black assistant who accompanied the three Marys to France when they fled from the Holy Land after the Crucifixion. In local gypsy tradition, she is said to have been a gypsy (some say 'Egyptian') woman who helped them to land safely. A cult of St. Sara persists today at Les Saintes Maries de la Mer, one of the earliest Magdalene sites in France.

The intriguing subject of the Black Virgin deserves more serious academic attention; meanwhile, it is known that the numbers of pilgrims to such shrines is increasing annually."
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
When I was young an old Polish nun from a convent down the street from me whispered to me that Mary was "black". I am certain that many older people of Eastern European believed that Mary was black, but that has probably changed in many places.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 

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Originally posted by Afronut Slayer:
All one has to do is look at the pheonotype of the image. The facial features are elongated, fine or sharp, not to mention wavy curly hair. These are atypical of the Negro.

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Originally posted by Afronut Slayer:
"A Black Madonna or Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark or black skin, especially those created in Europe in the medieval period or earlier. In this specialized sense "Black Madonna" does not apply to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as explicitly black African, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as the United States." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna)

All one has to do is look at the pheonotype of the image. The facial features are elongated, fine or sharp, not to mention wavy curly hair. These are atypical of the Negro. If anything, the asian hindu can make a better argument claiming the "Black Madonna."

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"As regards the statement that the color of the Black Virgins is due to smoke of burning candles, it may be said further that this does not account for the Negroid faces of some of these Virgins, and also for those paintings in which the Madonna is shown as black and Negroid."



From Chateau D'Anjony in France "Black Madonna of Le-Puy"
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Don't let Afronut get away with starting a new
thread to bury the info in this one. Mike please
repost those catacomb frescos here and everyone
post relevant material here and keep this thread
on top of anything Afronut devises on the topic.

And don't forget, what doesn't matter is white
paintings of Madonna and Child in white Europe
but black paintings of Holiness in white Europe
where white is supposed to mean sacred and pure
and black is supposed to mean all that is vile.

Quite an anomally that their Mother of God and
Child of God should ever be rendered as black.
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

And don't forget, what doesn't matter is white
paintings of Madonna and Child in white Europe
but black paintings of Holiness in white Europe
where white is supposed to mean sacred and pure
and black is supposed to mean all that is vile.

Quite an anomally that their Mother of God and
Child of God should ever be rendered as black.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:


From Chateau D'Anjony in France "Black Madonna of Le-Puy"

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Convincing anyone that these figures are black merely by candle burning would be quite a hard sell, no?
 

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Posted by Recovering Afrocentrist (Member # 17311) on :
 
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP? Your scholarship is really WACK dude.









 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Anything you can we can to better..we can do everything better than Uuuu!!

Isis was one of the first Madonnas, frequently protrayed as nursing Horus, her Divine Son. She was highly venerated during the years of the early Christian church, and most scholars agree that the cult of Isis strongly influenced the cult of Mary.

"Our Lady of Light" was one of Isis' many titles, and in one sacred story, she gave birth to the sun. It is no coincidence that Christmas, the celebration of the birth of Mary's son, The Christ, is celebrated at the same time of year as Winter Solstice, the celebration of the re-birth of the sun, the return of the light.
www.northernway.org/twm/mary/mother.html
 

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Posted by Recovering Afrocentrist (Member # 17311) on :
 
You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

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WOW you are an absolute genius, stupid.

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Ah! So there we have it! In Doug's pseudo reality there are only two races and they are based on two skin colors; white and black. Boy! I should have guessed! There are only two colors to human skin! Black and white! And those two are factors for determining race. I should have known! Damn! How did that slip the scientific world? This is ground breaking (LOL)!

You are the bomb!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.

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WOW you are an absolute genius, stupid.

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Like I said you are an absolute stupid genious with your dumb backwards pseudo logic.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
This is the original Black Modonna worship in Europe Isis as stated above..here you have Nile valley Priest..with their Roman counter parts giving　homage to an African Goddess..they didn't hate they　just appreaciate.

Temple Of Isis Pompeii
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's
what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd
like to respond to that question. Thank you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's
what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd
like to respond to that question. Thank you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair. [/QB]

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This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black?

 

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Posted by Recovering Afrocentrist (Member # 17311) on :
 
let me guess, he is east African. Correct?

quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.

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This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black?
[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

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Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.

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This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black?
[/QB]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
You have the black madonna made of dark wood (not at all indicative of complexion). You have black madonnas, a result of soot and you have black madonnas with esoteric meaning to her dark skin in xten lore (these are the three kinds of Black Madonnas you find thurout europe). The latter was never meant to be interpreted literal as Afrocentrists suggest. After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's
what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd
like to respond to that question. Thank you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
One doesn't make the other go away.

Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in
Europe as should be the case among white peoples.
That they far outnumber the black ones is to be
expected.

But what explains black Madonnas among white people
and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle
working stature when the color black bear negative
connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that
is ugly, vile, and evil?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?

---

---

---

---

---

You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree. However it isn't, and many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.

Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians. It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.

I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree.
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


From Chateau D'Anjony in France "Black Madonna of Le-Puy"

---

Convincing anyone that these figures are black merely by candle burning would be quite a hard sell, no?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:
You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree.

---

quote:

---

many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.

---

quote:

---

Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians.

---

quote:

---

It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.

---

quote:

---

I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree.

---

Okay, fare enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna
 

---

Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
 
^^STUPID BOY...STUUUUPID BOWY....
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Dark wood?
OK, but leave face and hands darker than the clothes
and wherefore the red on the lower lip?

Soot?
Already covered that in an earlier post that quoted
Higgins which I'll repost as a refresher

quote:

---

When circumstances have been named to the Romish
priests they have endeavored to disguise the fact
by pretending that the child had become black by
the smoke of the candles; but it was black where
the smoke of the candle never came; and besides
how came the candles not to blacken the white
teeth and the shirt, and how came they to redden
the lips?

---

quote:

---

... they developed the concept of a unique "Black Madonna" and sought a theological explanation to counter the then-popularly held negative association with blackness.

. . . .

... a woman made a pilgrimage to the sanctuary to give thanks for the miraculous healing of her daughter, and upon seeing the statue’s dark visage, she exclaimed, "I traveled so far to see someone uglier than me"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:
You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree.

---

I never said it was solely based on the wood. There are Madonnas made of dark wood, there are Madonnas that are dark as a result of soot from burning candle, and there are Madonnas whose dark pigment expresses an esoteric meaning.

I also stated the dominant depiction of the Madonna and child throughout Europe is European Caucasian. Why is that one discounted in favor of the less reccuring motif?

quote:

---

many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.

---

And many Europeans don't. So what is your point? The major view of Europeans is that the bible characters (Mary and Jesus) are not African Negro, sir. This is what Afrocentrists want to believe; the existence of a Black Madonna is proof that the Bible characters are African Negro.

quote:

---

Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians.

---

You are not following along in the thread. That is exactly what I said. If anyone, dark asians (like Hindus) are in a better position to argue that the Black Madonnas resemble them.

What is disturbing is an African American/Afrocentrist trying to claim the Black Madonna because she is pigmented dark. I did not know Afro-Blacks are the only dark people on the earth.

quote:

---

It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.

---

And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire? Did they miraculously disappear?

quote:

---

I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree.

---

Okay, fare enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
let me guess, he is east African. Correct?

quote:

---

Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.

---

This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black?

---

[/QB]

---

Errr wrong! He's actually from Rwanda which is more central Africa, so does this mean he's not African black with his features?

Btw anthropologists of the past thought this individuals ancestors migrated from east Africa and that they carried E1b1b (E3b), but as noted to they are predominately E1b1a (E3a). Now what does this tell us?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
From the researches of Ella Rozett @ Index of Black Maodnnas Worldwide


Our Lady of Good Deliverance,
Neuilly near Paris, 14th C.
variation on 11th C. original



Romanesque Madonna of Chastreix,
Puy-de-Dome, France
Photo: Francis Debaisieux



Our Lady of Meymac,
France, 12th century



Our Lady of Le Puy
photo: Francis Debaisieux
France, reproduction, because
the original was burnt during
the revolution, like witches on
public execution pyres, to cries
of: "Death to the Egyptian!"



Our Lady of the Good Death (Notre Dame de la Bonne Mort),
12th century, Clermont-Ferrand, France,
discovered in 1972 in the mortuary chapel of a bishop.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Black Madonna White Bambino


Our Dear Lady of Regula
Church of Our Lady of the Pottery
A.D. 1676
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
The bass is a member of the Church of Christ and as such we are not concerned with pictorical depictions of Jesus and Mary

---

quote:

---

You have the black madonna made of dark wood (not at all indicative of complexion). You have black madonnas, a result of soot and you have black madonnas with esoteric meaning to her dark skin in xten lore (these are the three kinds of Black Madonnas you find thurout europe). The latter was never meant to be interpreted literal as Afrocentrists suggest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
[QB]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:
You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree.

---

I never said it was solely based on the wood. There are Madonnas made of dark wood, there are Madonnas that are dark as a result of soot from burning candle, and there are Madonnas whose dark pigment expresses an esoteric meaning.

---

quote:

---

I also stated the dominant depiction of the Madonna and child throughout Europe is European Caucasian. Why is that one discounted in favor of the less reccuring motif?

---

quote:

---

And many Europeans don't. So what is your point? The major view of Europeans is that the bible characters (Mary and Jesus) are not African Negro, sir. This is what Afrocentrists want to believe; the existence of a Black Madonna is proof that the Bible characters are African Negro.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians.

---

You are not following along in the thread. That is exactly what I said. If anyone, dark asians (like Hindus) are in a better position to argue that the Black Madonnas resemble them.

---

quote:

---

What is disturbing is an African American/Afrocentrist trying to claim the Black Madonna because she is pigmented dark. I did not know Afro-Blacks are the only dark people on the earth.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

re still found within Turkey, in fact.

---

And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire? Did they miraculously disappear?

---

I am referring to the Black Asian populations that ten to have an aquiline phenotype akin to "Hindus". There are MILLIONS of these black-skinned people present in the region and neolithic remains suggest an initial tropically adapted population.

Those pale-skin populations largely entered due to slavery. The original population, who are still present (numerous in Southern Lebanon) were the original stock. Never mind, the dark skinned majority in the Arabian peninsula, at virtually all social classes.

PS: There are "West African-looking" indigenous people found in Southern Arabia. That population are more related to Asians.
 

---

Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
Bob_01 Quote: "And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire?"

Bob_01 - Where on earth did you get your history from?

Turks were the ones originally brought in as Slaves, BY BLACK PEOPLE!!!

These were the original people of Anatolia (now Turkey).














BTW - The Hebrews originally came from Anatolia (Turkey).
 

---

Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
Bob_01 Quote: "And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire?"

Bob_01 - Where on earth did you get your history from?

Turks were the ones originally brought in as Slaves, BY BLACK PEOPLE!!!

These were the original people of Anatolia (now Turkey).














BTW - The Hebrews originally came from Anatolia (Turkey).

---

quote:

---

Do any of you "RELIGIOUS" Negros understand what those high-lighted passages mean?

You probably don't, so I will tell you.

---

Mike STFU please. You can't possibly interpret anything for anyone.
 

---

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
 
Yes, the Black Madonnas are the most venerated Madonnas in Europe....

May I share, please:

Image below is said to be Pre-sumerian-


AUSET AND HERU (aka Isis and Horus), below-



and then came Madonna and Child....I would say note the similarities among the three pictures, but I could not post the third picture that I have with these two; the board wouldn't let me for some reason....(I had posted this in another thread, before I saw this one, lol...clearly this was the better thread for it).

The Byzantine Black Madonnas were the most prevalent in ancient Europe; though many were destroyed by the Iconoclasim, which I think began in the 7th century? Later many were reproduced or restored, but not repainted in their original dark colors.

Don't forget Our Lady of Montserrat- a Black Madonna in Spain.
Our Lady of the Hermits- a Black Madonna in Switzerland.
the Notre Dame of Kazan- a Russian Black Madonna.
the Notre Dame of Hal- a Belgian Black Madonna.
Black Madonna of Nuria in Spain aka Queen of the Pyrenees is one of the oldest.
The list goes on and on and on...and for some that don't know, the Black Madonnas of Europe have a tradition that goes back hundreds of years before the advent of Christianity....When the worship of Isis was suppressed throughout Europe (as Christianity was not so readily received in Europe), the Virgin Mary was elevated into the European Christiandom.

Dr. Ivan van Sertima has great info on this topic in his book AFRICAN PRESENCE IN EARLY EUROPE pp. 108-133 "Black Madonnas of Europe: Diffusion of the African Isis."

I see we are leaving out the topic of the not a few Black saints (yes, AFRICAN ones) to be found throughout the churches of Europe- especially the older ones.



htp
 

---

Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:

Do any of you "RELIGIOUS" Negros understand what those high-lighted passages mean?

You probably don't, so I will tell you.
It means that the book was written by a White man FOR White men.

---

quote:

---

Despite the increasing interest in translation in the last two decades, there has been no investigation of the translation of historiography and its transformation from one language to another. This article takes as a case study the translation into French of Ibn Khaldûn, the fourteenth-century North African historian. It considers specifically the translation done by William de Slane in the context of the colonization of Algeria. The Histoire des Berbères, the French narrative of Ibn Khaldûn that relates to the history of Arabs and Berbers in the Maghreb, has become since then the source of French knowledge of North Africa. It is upon that French narrative that colonial and post-colonial historians have constructed their knowledge of North Africa, of Arabs, and of Berbers. The article shows how a portion of the writing of Ibn Khaldûn was translated and transformed in the process in such a way as to become a French narrative with colonial categories specific to the nineteenth century. Using a semiotic approach and analyzing both the French text and its original, the article shows how colonialism introduced what Castoriadis calls an "imaginary" by transforming local knowledge and converting it into colonial knowledge. In showing this the essay reveals that not only is translation not the transmission of a message from one language to another, it is indeed the production of a new text. For translation is itself the product of an imaginary, a creation-in Ricoeur's words, a "restructuring of semantic fields

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lion:
QUESTION:

IF MARY HAD A DARK SKIN TONE AND THERE ARE PEOPLE LIVING TODAY WITH A SIMILARLY DARK SKIN TONE WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MARY AND PEOPLE LIVING TODAY WITH A DARK SKIN TONE OTHER THAN A SIMILARITY IN SKIN TONE?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
They are all African Black.

Afrocentrism 101

Lesson 1:

[1] African Negroes or Blacks have dark skin.
[2] Indigenous peoples have dark skin.
[3] Therefor, all Indigenous Peoples are Black/African Negroes.

If you have not figured it out, the above is a logical fallacy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lion:
QUESTION:

IF MARY HAD A DARK SKIN TONE AND THERE ARE PEOPLE LIVING TODAY WITH A SIMILARLY DARK SKIN TONE WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MARY AND PEOPLE LIVING TODAY WITH A DARK SKIN TONE OTHER THAN A SIMILARITY IN SKIN TONE?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:
Whatever crackpot. Most of us stated clearly that Black Asians, who fall under a similar skin color range as Africans(darker if "West Africans" are only observed), are not recent African migrants.

---

quote:

---

If Mary is a Black Asian, she is not of African descent. However Black Africans are still going to feel a strong ties to that population.

---

quote:

---

The Asian counterpart in Australia and the Pacific Island certainly do as well. Much of that has to do with the common history of racial oppression that even continues today.

---

quote:

---

You'll never understand that.

---

quote:

---

Saying that, I don't see the initial point being challenged at all. Most Europeans are still running around suggesting that some Northern European-looking Jesus and Mary existed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
[QB] [QUOTE]
That is an Afrocentrist's ultimate orgasmic experience - to see their utopia of all "Black" (dark) skin people form a united front. THAT IS THE RACIO POLITICAL AGENDA. You see, the Afrocentrists understand the power in NUMBER. And they understand that the Negro by himself is small in number and cannot counteract what they deem to be a world wide white supremist domination. If they can convince all dark skin people into thinking - WE ARE THE SAME RACE, then they can put up a good fight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lion:
You describe a logical motive, unifying oppressed dark skinned people for political power or attention.
Is that so nutty? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
No that is not nutty if that is what the majority dark people want. What is nutty is when a minority group uses deceit to coerce the majority into partaking in a movement.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lion:
You describe a logical motive, unifying oppressed dark skinned people for political power or attention.
Is that so nutty?

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Why these Madonnas are dark skinned we will never know for sure

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:
Whatever crackpot. Most of us stated clearly that Black Asians, who fall under a similar skin color range as Africans(darker if "West Africans" are only observed), are not recent African migrants.

---

Hey Tard, then why not just say "Dark Asians?" Why use the term "Black?" We all know why you use the term "Black." Because the term "Dark Asians" does not allow for you to make that subtle connection with the Negro. However, if you play the semantic game and use the term "Black," you can argue from both fronts - you can deny you are making the connection between those people and the Negro stock while arguing these people are Negroes. You are playing both sides of the fence you fool.

Why are you afraid to restrict yourself to just using "Dark" to identify these people?

quote:

---

If Mary is a Black Asian, she is not of African descent. However Black Africans are still going to feel a strong ties to that population.

---

A double talking Niggah. Look at that (LOL). If Mary is a Black Asian, she is not of African descent, but Black Africans will feel strong ties to her HAHAHAHAHA! Of course they will!!!! That is the function of your Trojan Horse (Black), you dimwit!

quote:

---

The Asian counterpart in Australia and the Pacific Island certainly do as well. Much of that has to do with the common history of racial oppression that even continues today.

---

Bingo! That is an Afrocentrist's ultimate orgasmic experience - to see their utopia of all "Black" (dark) skin people form a united front. THAT IS THE RACIO POLITICAL AGENDA. You see, the Afrocentrists understand the power in NUMBER. And they understand that the Negro by himself is small in number and cannot counteract what they deem to be a world wide white supremist domination. If they can convince all dark skin people into thinking - WE ARE THE SAME RACE, then they can put up a good fight.

quote:

---

You'll never understand that.

---

I understand perfectly. I just don't agree with the little 'black Lies' you engage in.

quote:

---

Saying that, I don't see the initial point being challenged at all. Most Europeans are still running around suggesting that some Northern European-looking Jesus and Mary existed.

---

If they do then they are just as buffoonery as you Afronuts.

---

quote:

---

If people talk about the caste system in India,we should likewise counter and talk about the class system in the US,so apparent during hurricane Katrina,where the rich all vamoosed in their SUVs and the poor,mainly Afro-Americans , were stuck without any means of escape,with the authorities also imagining that everyone would simply get into their cars and SUVs and leave! The images we saw on TV,with the rescuers pointing their guns at the survivors,imagining them to be food-rioters,treating them like animals,should be the perfect riposte to any EJ or Yanqui accuser.Link

---

quote:

---

Kuashal,<BR>GOOD POINTS.<BR>It seems Kevin is one of those Caucasoid brainwashed by western myths perpetuated to further the west. Stavirs good points as well, the west has only come up in the last couple of centuries a mere second compared to the length of human civilization. Again maybe Kevin is insecure or afraid because more and more Americans and Westerners are looking towards Eastern spirituality (mainly Hinduism and Buddhism) to achieve religious enlightenment. if the white Christians were not racist, then why did they oppress native Americans and keep Africans as slaves for centuries as Tibetan has pointed out in his post? Again I try not to be racist but the MOST RACIST AND INTOLERANT on Earth are the Christians and Whites. Period!<BR>

---

quote:

---

Quote:
given time, the west will inflate all the debt away!


absolutely.

there is zero probability the debt will be worked off. that prescription is only for third world countries and enforced via the IMF/sanctions or threat of invasion. Link

---

quote:

---

In January, a black youth was sentenced to 28 days in detention 800 km from his home for stealing textas worth about $40. When asked "Do you understand why you are going to jail?", he replied "Yes, because I'm black".

Three weeks later, that boy, Johnno, was dead, hanged by his own hand.
Link

---

As I said, this punk needs to hang himself. I still don't see why he thinks I'm associated with that failed nation of America. Point being, did he say he was "dark" or "purple"? That child said he was black.

Enough of this crap. Most African-Americans I met in too many places are much lighter than Australian indigenous, East Africans and a rather significant number of Arabian-based Blacks as well.
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Recovering Afrocentrist,fear that if people find common cause through Blackness and similar history of oppression and colonization,it is threat to him,and in the real world just last nite one o ma boyz walked in with a fine looking New-Guinean sista,who followed him from his last trip to Japan from Australia,planning to get hitched..talk about Eastern and Western Blacks connecting in a very real way..
 

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Posted by the lion (Member # 17353) on :
 
@alTakruri


1) WHY DO WHITE EUROPEANS VENERATE SOME DARK SKINNED MADONNAS WHEN THEY COULD HAVE VERY EASILY HAVE KEPT ONLY LIGHT SKINNED MADONNAS?

2) IN SOME OF THE PAINTINGS WE SEE A DARK SKINNED MADONNA WITH A LIGHT SKINNED BABY JESUS WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

3) IN CHRISTIANITY DID GOD EXIST BEFORE
JESUS WAS BORN?

 

---

Posted by Marc Washington (Member # 10979) on :
 
.
.

Iron. Pardon my commenting here. You asked:

1) WHY DO WHITE EUROPEANS VENERATE SOME DARK SKINNED MADONNAS WHEN THEY COULD HAVE VERY EASILY HAVE KEPT ONLY LIGHT SKINNED MADONNAS?

When I was in Budapest, I was friends of a Polish couple and our families did things together.

When I was trying to start a business in Poland, Janusz/John, rode me there and along the way, he spoke of the painting called "The Black Madonna of Poland."

Amazing though it may sound, Poles believe the Madonna was originally white. It may have been near the year 1600 (I'm not sure) when Poland was involved in war and the Catholic Church hid the painting of the Madonna and child.

After the long war, when the picture was unveiled, the new generation of Poles were shocked to see it was black.

Amazingly, they consider her blackness to be a miracle and the picture is visited today to witness the miracle of the white Madonna turned black!!!

They think something happened to the paint to turn it from white to black!

Ironically, in Gniezno, Poland, Adalbert, the Patron Saint of Poland is shown in a poignantly African-featured man in a church door frieze going back to 1150.AD.


http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Gods.MotherGoddeses/02-16-800-33-NW.wie.gni-85-050-20-10-01_Adalbert.of.Poland..1150.AD.jpg

Today's Poles have no real memory of their migration to Poland in the Middle Ages and of the Catholic Africans pre-dating them (Adalbert from 1150 AD!!) whose religion and way of life they took on.

.
.
 

---

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
 
"For thousands of years the African woman has been worshipped and idolized by individuals, families and nations in Africa and around the world. Ancient records show her as queen, goddess and saint. The African woman has led mighty nations into battle, founded splendid royal dynasties, performed sacred miracles and given birth to messiahs. No other human of any racial or ethnic type has been or should be as broadly venerated as the African woman. This is as it should be. All praises due the African woman.

The Black Madonnas of Europe are perhaps the most venerated icons in European Christendom. According to L.W. Moss and S.C. Cappannari:

"All the Black Madonnas are powerful images; they are miracle workers. They are implored for intercession in the various problems of fertility. Pilgrimages covering hundreds of kilometers are made to these specific shrines. The degree of adorational fervor far exceeds that attached to other representations of the Virgin. For example, until the last decade, when the practice was explicitly forbidden by church authorities, pilgrims journeying to the shrine of Mount Vergine would climb the steps of the church on their knees, licking each step with their tongues. We are, thus equating the blackness of the images with their power. The attitude of the pilgrim approaches not reverence but worship (latrial)."

In Russia during the nineteenth century the Russian General Kutuzov had his army pray before the Black Madonna of Kazan before the historic victory at Borodina. The same Madonna is said to have inspired Rasputin and may now be in the United States. In reference to the Black Madonna of Montserrat, Spain, it said that "He is not well wed who has not taken his wife to Montserrat." Spain has more than fifty images of the Black Madonna. Nineteen have been documented in Germany. Italy has more than thirty Black Madonnas. France has more than three-hundred.":
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/madonnas.html

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/madonbib.html


htp
 

---

Posted by TruthAndRights (Member # 17346) on :
 















Interesting:

http://www.nyfolklore.org/pubs/voic30-1-2/madonna.html


htp
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
In my opinion

1) The first Black Madonnas depicted black women.
When they became replaced for various reasons in
most cases only the darkness of the skin was kept
while facial features were made to approximate
the local norm. That the first Black Madonnas'
features were like NE African extension folk
was because the person they depict was a
woman (real or mythical) from Judea in the
NE African extension.

2) I have no idea.

3) I don't know if Xianity has only one idea
about that as Xianity's been composed of many
disagreeing sects since its beginnings. The
Catholics who have the Black Madonnas call
her "Mary, mother of God" while simultaneously
believing that "God" created everything out of
nothing.

* By NE African extension I mean the Arabian
tectonic plate encompassing Mesopotamia, the
Levant, and the Arabian peninsula. Of course
by the 1st century of our Common Era nearly
the entire region had experienced ingressions
by non-black peoples from otherside the Zagros
and Taurus mountain chains, in some instances
as much as 3000 years earlier. Nonetheless a
prevalent opinion in Rome, where a significant
pluratity of Xians harbored, was that the Jews
were an Aethiopian descended people, hence the
catacomb paintings reflecting that and the
Black Madonnas.

I haven't seen but request any available info
if there is any of Madonna and Child idols
used by the Iside Mystery religion. A carry
over from Isiac Mystery to Mariolatry in
regards to the Black Madonnas is the fervor
sailors have for them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lion:
@alTakruri


1) WHY DO WHITE EUROPEANS VENERATE SOME DARK SKINNED MADONNAS WHEN THEY COULD HAVE VERY EASILY HAVE KEPT ONLY LIGHT SKINNED MADONNAS?

2) IN SOME OF THE PAINTINGS WE SEE A DARK SKINNED MADONNA WITH A LIGHT SKINNED BABY JESUS WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

3) IN CHRISTIANITY DID GOD EXIST BEFORE
JESUS WAS BORN?

---

quote:

---

Nonetheless a prevalent opinion in Rome, where a significant pluratity of Xians harbored, was that the Jews were an Aethiopian descended people, hence the catacomb paintings reflecting that and the Black Madonnas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:

quote:

---

Nonetheless a prevalent opinion in Rome, where a significant pluratity of Xians harbored, was that the Jews were an Aethiopian descended people, hence the catacomb paintings reflecting that and the Black Madonnas.

---

Please cite literature to back that claim.

Thanks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
The Jews are said to have been refugees from the island of Crete who settled in the remotest corner of Libya in the days when, according to the story, Saturn was driven from his throne by the aggression of Jupiter [1]. This is a deduction from the name Judaei by which they became known: the word is to be regarded as a barbarous lengthening of Idaei, the name of the people dwelling around the famous Mount Ida in Crete. A few authorities hold that in the reign of Isis the surplus population of Egypt was evacuated to neighboring lands under the leadership of Hierosolymus and Judas [2]. Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country when Cepheus was king
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=15;t=002408;replyto=000079 [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob_01:

quote:

---

Nonetheless a prevalent opinion in Rome, where a significant pluratity of Xians harbored, was that the Jews were an Aethiopian descended people, hence the catacomb paintings reflecting that and the Black Madonnas.

---

Please cite literature to back that claim.

Thanks.

---

quote:

---

This is a true insult to intelligence. There were no
Ashkenazim in the first imperial Roman era. Mishnah
was composed in that epoch and says Israel was the
colour of boxwood or of honey. Out in the streets the
common Roman thought Judaeans were a kind of Ethiopian.

quote:

---

The majority of people say the Judaeans were
those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged
to change their habitations, in the reign of king
Cepheus.

Tacitus

---

and one Greco-Latin author flat
out ranked Judaeans as Egyptian.

quote:

---

One of the customs most zealously observed among the
Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born,
and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is
also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian
in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.

Strabo

---

Unless the Ethiopians and Egyptians are too examples
of your unmixed whites, the idea of "white Jews" before
north and northeast Mediterraneans (and even Danube
Europeans) nationalized as Jews is an idea with very
little evidence to back it up. I doubt a white people
who are so very in love with their skin colour would
have leprosy laws worded the way they are in the Five
Books of Moses.

Now as for the white jew black jew dichotomy that's
terminology first put into place by the Jews of India.

And to bring things back on topic (Dr. Ben's book)
that's something written about in the object of the
subject header announcing the topic of this thread.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:


The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. .

---

---

 

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Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 



Saint Joan of Arc It may have been
a black woman
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
In my opinion

The first Black Madonnas depicted black women.
When they became replaced for various reasons in
most cases only the darkness of the skin was kept
while facial features were made to approximate
the local norm. That the first Black Madonnas'
features were like NE African extension folk
was because the person they depict was a
woman (real or mythical) from Judea in the
NE African extension.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:



Saint Joan of Arc It may have been
a black woman

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by malibudusul:
In France there were many blacks.
This image is from France.
So Joan was probably black.
I'm shocked
with the number of images of blacks in europe

---

"Africa and Africans have had an influence on European thought and culture far disproportionate to the size of the small black population (which, for example, approached 150,000 in the Iberian peninsula in the 16th century, and by the 18th amounted to just several thousand in France, a few thousand in the Netherlands, and several hundred scattered through Germany, Scandinavia, and Russia; only in the 20th century would the combined numbers reach the hundreds of thousands)."

-Problems in Studying the Role of Blacks In Europe

By Allison Blakeley, professor of European and comparative history at Howard University, is the author of Blacks in the Dutch World (Indiana University Press, 1994) and Russia and the Negro (Howard University Press, 1986).
American Historical Association
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
A couple of centuries before Joan of Arc there was
a black woman called Ismeria, who was from Sudan,
the wife of Robert d'Eppes. When she died a shrine
was built to her and she became a Black Madonna
(c. 1250 CE).


Courtesy of http://www.christ-roi.net/index.php/Notre_Dame_de_Liesse
 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
Some believe the Black Madonnas are actually a survival of the Isis Cult which was once popular in some parts of Western Europe as well other pagan Mother Goddesses, brown being the color of the Earth. In the south of France their is a long tradition of veneration Saint Sarah who is actually a modification of the Black Indian Goddess Kali.

"Saint Sarah, also known as Sara-la-Kali ("Sara the Black", Romani: Sara e Kali), is the mythic patron saint of the Roma (Gypsy) people. The center of her veneration is Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, a place of pilgrimage for Roma in the Camargue, in southern France. Legend identifies her as the servant of one of the Three Marys, with whom she is supposed to have arrived in the Camargue."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sarah




 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
Let's look at some of the earliest representations of Madonna and Child in Western art.





The earliest surviving image in a Western illuminated manuscript of the Madonna and Child comes from the Book of Kells of about 800 (there is a similar carved image on the lid of St Cuthbert's coffin of 698) and, though magnificently decorated in the style of Insular art, the drawing of the figures can only be described as rather crude compared to Byzantine work of the period.

Very few early images of the Virgin Mary survive, though the depiction of the Madonna has roots in ancient pictorial and sculptural traditions that informed the earliest Christian communities throughout Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. Important to Italian tradition are Byzantine icons, especially those created in Constantinople (Istanbul), the capital of the longest, enduring medieval civilization whose icons participated in civic life and were celebrated for their miraculous properties. B


Santa Maria in Trastevere,




John II Commenus, Emperor for 25 years from 1118, with the Virgin Mary and Jesus and Empress Irene, daughter of King Lazlo of Hungary. Constantinople

If the earliest Madonnas were light skinned or somewhat light skinned what accounts for the later so called black Madonnas? Many of them are jet black.
 

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Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
If the earliest Madonnas were light skinned or somewhat light skinned what accounts for the black Madonnas? Many of them are jet black.

Prior to Christianity some of the pagan godesses were portrayed as Black like Diana of Ephesus who shrine was later dedicated to the Virgin Mary


Also the great goddess Cybele was essentially worshiped as Black stone.

"Cybele arose not far from Artemis, as the Phrygian form of the "Great Mother of the Gods" and as another one of the oldest goddesses of Asia Minor. Her worship reaches back at least to the Neolithic period of the Stone Age. This seems fitting because she was represented by a stone, a black meteor.
Peter Lindegger (quoted in China Galland's "Longing for Darkness: Tara and the Black Madonna", p.145) links Cybele to Ishtar, the Sumerian-Babylonian Queen of Heaven, whom the Israelites worshipped as Asherah (much to the chagrin of Biblical prophets). In the form of Cybele this goddess becomes more closely linked to death and the underworld and is portrayed with a black face.
Cybele's city, which the Greeks called Metropolis, i.e. the city of the Mother, was in Anatolia, now part of Turkey. This Mother of all Gods was also regarded as a virgin. That is to say she was able to give birth without intercourse with a male counterpart, and when she did have intercourse her virginity was always restored afterwards.
There appears to be a connection between Cybele, also known as Kubaba, Kube, Kuba, and the central holy shrine of the Muslims, the Kaaba in Mecca: a huge, dark gray cube, covered with a black brocade cloth. Its main treasure is another black meteor, which was already worshipped long before Mohammed. Every pilgrim who can, kisses it for the forgiveness of sins. If the crowd of pilgrims is too thick to get to it, one greets it from afar. Like the black madonnas, the stone is said to have turned black by absorbing the sins of the faithful. A Muslim told me that it is also considered a person of sorts. Tradition states that the stone will come alive on Judgment Day and greet everyone who greeted it, thereby allowing passage into paradise.
There appears to be a connection between Cybele, also known as Kubaba, Kube, Kuba, and the central holy shrine of the Muslims, the Kaaba in Mecca, a huge, dark grey cube, covered with a black brocade cloth. It's main treasure is another black meteor, which was already worshipped long before Muhammed. Every pilgrim who can, kisses it for the forgiveness of sins. If the crowd of pilgrims is too thick to get to it, one greets it from afar. Like the black madonnas, the stone is said to have turned black by absorbing the sins of the faithful. A Muslim told me that it is also considered a person of sorts. Tradition has it that on Judgement Day the stone will come alive and greet everyone who greeted it, thereby allowing passage into paradise."
http://www.interfaithmary.com/pages/blackmadonna.html
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Uncolonized people make their divinities in their
own image. If their supreme beings are depicted
looking other than themselves the impetus lies
elsewhere and is either imported or adapted
from foreign nationals now or once among them
or by the belief that the God originated from
people who look like the idol or icon hence
the Byzantine devotional images portraying
biblical characters dark like the Palestinians
walking down the streets of Constantinople.


I doubt an Isiac Mystery Religion suppressed and
banished by 4th century Constantine established
Roman Catholicism lies behind Black Madonna's
issued a thousand or more years after his edicts.

In fact the Isis of the Roman empire was not often, I mean
extremely rare, sculpted as a madonna, mother and child idol.


A partial list of the extent of the Black Madonna
idols in Europe a continent populated by whites,
near whites, and off whites who have endeared
themselves to a deity and that diety's mother
of opposite colour and in many instances also
of different facial features.


Belgium
* Brugge/Bruges: Our Dear Lady of Regula
* Brussels: The Black Dear Lady
* Hal/Halle: Our Lady the Black Virgin of Hal
* Verviers: The Black Virgin of the Recollects

Eastern Europe
* Czech Republic: Brno: Black Madonna of Brno
* Czech Republic: Prague: The Madonna of Breznice
* Czech Republic: Prague: The Black Madonna in the Church Our Lady Under the Chain
* Czech Republic: Prague: The Black Madonna on the House of the Black Madonna
* Lithuania: Wilna: The Mother of God of Ostra Brama
* Poland: Czestochowa: The Black Madonna of Czestochowa

France
* Castle of Anjony: Our Lady of Anjony
* Aurillac: Our Lady of the Snows
* Beaune: Our Lady of Beaune
* Chartres: Our Lady of Chartres
* Chastreix: Our Lady of Chastreix
* Chatillion-sur-Seine: Our Lady of All Graces
* Clermont-Ferrand: Our Lady of the Good Death
* Cusset: the Black Virgin
* Dorres: Our Lady of Belloch
* Egliseneuve d'Entraigues: Our Lady of the Sacred Spring
* Err: the Black Virgin
* Fontgombault: Our Lady of a Happy Death
* Font-Romeu/Odeillo: Notre-Dame de Font-Romeu
* Le-Puy-en-Velay: Our Lady of Le Puy II
* Le-Puy-en-Velay: Our Lady of Le Puy III
* Les-Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer
* Marsat: Our Lady of Marsat
* Mauriac: Our Lady of Miracles
* Mende: 1. Notre-Dame de Mende
* Mende: 2. Our Lady of the Fountain
* Meymac: The Black Virgin of Meymac
* Mont-Saint-Michel: Our Lady of the Underworld
* Moulins: the Black Virgin
* Orleans: Our Lady of Miracles
* Paris, Center: Queen of Peace
* Paris-Neuilly: Our Lady of Good Deliverance
* Pézenas: Notre-Dame la Noire (Our Lady the Black One)
* Rocamadour: Our Lady of Rocamadour
* Ronzières: Notre Dame de Ronzières
* Saint-Gervazy: Our Lady of Saint-Gervazy
* Saint-Guiraud: Our Lady the Black One
* Thuret: Our Lady of Thuret
* Toulouse: La Daurade
* Vassivière: Our Lady of Vassivière
* Vichy: Our Lady of the Sick

Germany
* Altötting: Our Dear Lady of Altötting
* Beilstein: The Black Madonna, Queen of Peace
* Bielefeld: The Black Madonna
* Cologne: The Black Mother of God in the Kupfergasse
* Düsseldorf-Benrath: The Black Mother of God of Benrath
* Fraueninsel: in Lake Chiem: Black Madonna of the Fraueninsel
* Heiligenbrunn bei Hohentann: Our Dear Lady of Heiligenbrunn
* Langenfeld: Black Mother of God
* Neuerburg: Schwarzbildchen
* Neukirchen-beim-Heiligen-Blut: Our Dear Lady
* Telgte: The Sorrowful Mother
* Windhausen: The Black Madonna

Ireland
* Dublin: Our Lady of Dublin

Italy
* Brucoli: Maria Santissima Mater Adonai
* Caltabellotta: Most Holy Mary of Miracles
* Civita, Itri: The Black Madonna Most Holy Mary of Civita
* Crotone: Madonna of Capo Colonna
* Custonaci: Maria Santissima di Custonaci
* Foggia: Most Holy Mary the Crowned One of the Poor
* Loreto: The Black Madonna of Loreto
* Milicia: Madonna della Milicia
* Montevergine: Slave Mama
* Monte Viggiano: The Black Madonna of Sacred Mount Viggiano
* Oropa: The Black Madonna of Oropa
* Pescasseroli: Most Holy Mary the Crowned One
* Piazza Armerina: Most Holy Mary of the Victories
* Randazzo: Madonna of the Pillar
* San Severo: The Madonna of Succor
* Tindari: The Black Madonna Saint Mary of Tindari
* Vena: Most Holy Mary of the Vein
* Venice: Mesopanditissa, Peacemaker
* Vernazza: the African

Luxembourg
* Luxembourg-City: Black Emergency Mother of God

Spain
* Chipiona: Our Lady of Regla
* Fuenterrabía/Hondarribia: Virgin of Guadalupe of Fuenterrabía
* Guadalupe Cáceres: The Virgin of Guadalupe Cáseres
* Jerez de la Frontera: Our Crowned Lady of Mercy
* Lluc, Majorca: La Moreneta
* Madrid: Our Lady of Atocha
* Montblanc: Our Lady of the Green Cross
* Montserrat: La Moreneta
* Nuria: Our Lady of Nuria
* Olot: Mother of God of the Bull
* Peña de Francia: La Virgen Morena (the dark skinned Virgin)
* Puigcerdá: Mother of God of the Sacristy
* Santisteban del Puerto: Our Lady of Collado
* Sant Llorenç de Morunys 1. Mare de Déu dels Colls
* Sant Llorenç de Morunys 2. Mare de Déu del Lord
* Solsona: The Mother of God of the Cloister
* Tenerife: the Virgin of Candelaria
* Zaragoza: Our Lady of the Pillar

Switzerland
* Einsiedeln: Our Dear Lady of Einsiedeln

All of the above documented @ Black Madonnas website by Ella Rozett.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Uncolonized people make their divinities in their
own image. If their supreme beings are depicted
looking other than themselves the impetus lies
elsewhere and is either imported or adapted
from foreign nationals now or once among them
or by the belief that the God originated from
people who look like the idol or icon hence
the Byzantine devotional images portraying
biblical characters dark like the Palestinians
walking down the streets of Constantinople.


I doubt an Isiac Mystery Religion suppressed and
banished by 4th century Constantine established
Roman Catholicism lies behind Black Madonna's
issued a thousand or more years after his edicts.

In fact the Isis of the Roman empire was not often, I mean
extremely rare, sculpted as a madonna, mother and child idol.


A partial list of the extent of the Black Madonna
idols in Europe a continent populated by whites,
near whites, and off whites who have endeared
themselves to a deity and that diety's mother
of opposite colour and in many instances also
of different facial features.

---

If you look at the earliest renditions of the Madonna and child they are not jet black in color like the black Madonnas you list.

Later on the black Madonna is introduced. Why?
Of all these numerous later black Madonnas do the people who live where they are interpret them as showing Mary was African?
The same people who introduced the Trans Atlantic Slave trade?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Everyone knows (or should know) that the black Madonna and child are based on Isis and her baby Horus. (Black being a symbol of divinity and new life in Egypt.) There is even evidence to suggest that in Europe dark colored goddesses symbolized fertile earth.
 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 
I doubt an Isiac Mystery Religion suppressed and banished by 4th century Constantine established Roman Catholicism lies behind Black Madonna's issued a thousand or more years after his edicts

Yes you might think so, and you may be right. But it's a known fact that Christianity is rife with disguised pagan borrowings and survivals everything from Easter traditions to the date Christmas is celebrated.

"In some cases Black Madonnas are the oldest of statues. Often Catholic churches and cathedrals were built on top of former goddess shrines and in the case of at least some Black Madonnas, for example at Chartres Cathedral near Paris the original statues now worshipped as Black Madonnas may in fact have been originally pagan goddesses who were renamed to transfer worship of the Earth Mother to the Virgin Mary.

In France, where the majority of Black Madonnas are found, indigenous mother goddess worshipping traditions date back to the Goddess of Laussel, found in the entrance to an Ice age cave in the Dordogne region in central France. She was crafted around 23,000BCE and is important because she is the first representation of the Earth Mother as a lunar deity. She holds in her right hand a bison horn, shaped like the crescent-Moon. The horn is divided with 13 marks probably representing the 13 moons in a lunar year. Her other hand touches her womb...
As late as 550 CE, Isis still had a temple in Soissons, just north of Paris and the Middle Eastern goddesses co-existed with the Celtic Gallic deities.

The Graeco-Roman Mother Goddess Cybele and Artemis/Diana of Ephesus, both dark skinned fertility goddesses were still worshipped in France and the Mediterranean coast from Antibes to Barcelona during the later centuries of the Roman Empire. Cybele was during the 3rd century the supreme deity of the town of Lyon that was capital of a vast area of South-eastern France, a region where many Black Madonnas are found. Marseilles was devoted to Artemis.

During the Middle Ages, the Crusaders returned from the Middle East, bringing goddess statues and some such as the mystical Knights Templar, many of whom who were wiped out as heretics,were involved in promoting the cult of the Black Madonna and her association with Mary Magdalene.
Further evidence of the Black Madonna’s pagan and nature worshipping origins is the fact that Black Madonnas were frequently discovered hidden in trees or caves in France and Spain as late as the seventeenth century. Legends grew up that suggested these dark wood statues had magical powers that called the chosen finders to hiding places sometimes deep in undergrowth. Of course there were priests who perhaps were sympathetic to the old ways who may have known that a pagan goddess statue was kept in a particular cave and brought out for worship in the old nature religions that are still practiced in woodlands and groves worldwide today"
http://www.cassandraeason.com/vierge_noir/index.htm.

Interesting.

Regardless of it's origins, I think many Catholics view the Madonna's dark coloring more in a mystical sense than one that has racial implications.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Really? What is the ratio of madonna vs solo
statuary in the Isis religion of the Roman
empire (not the native Egyptian Auset worship
which is not the same as the Isiac Mysteries)?



Typical Roman Empire Isiac Mysteries image of Isis

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Everyone knows (or should know) that the black Madonna and child are based on Isis and her baby Horus.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Everyone knows (or should know) that the black Madonna and child are based on Isis and her baby Horus. (Black being a symbol of divinity and new life in Egypt.) There is even evidence to suggest that in Europe dark colored goddesses symbolized fertile earth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Of all these numerous later black Madonnas do the people who live where they are interpret them as showing Mary was African?
The same people who introduced the Trans Atlantic Slave trade?

No, it was part of some mystical tradition, regular depictions of Jesus and Mary where always European looking to the point of Jesus being blond at times. And with subsequent conflicts were darker folks like the Moors, European participation in Black salvery etc it would be quite bizarre for them to think of Mary as African.

It's interesting that they appear around the time of crusades and the Knights Templar. Also a lot of tradition leads to South of France suggesting some possible connection with the Catahrs as well.

---

During the Reconquista in which the Christians repelled the Muslims from Iberia in manuscripts you will see Muslims depicted sometimes as mid toned Arabs but still considered relatively dark skinned but sometimes also depicted with light skin.

After the Reconquista the meaning of the term Moor was meant to mean basically anybody from Africa, the advent of the "blackamoor". Then you see the pitch black representations in the European heraldry. The Europeans were fetishizing the subugated Africans and thought we looked cute on Coats of Arms. It's kind of sickening actually
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
^^^^
Blond Jesus is a recent fad. Prior to that Europeans depicted Jesus as a Southern European/Greek looking man. Blond Jesus probably came when Anglo Saxons became the dominant power in Christianity(As the Book of Kells depicts a blond Christ).

I doubt all the Madonnas were Mythical...


^^^
Come on..

Slavery was a normal practice during those times, esp. when the Catholic Powers were involved. No need to justify it when Catholic Europeans were sold into slavery as well. Dont forget the Portugese thought highly of the african Kongos who converted to Christianity and sent their Princes to be Educated in Portugal. The Portugese did not see the Kongos and inferiors or non Humans. The Dehumanizing of Africans did not come until the English/Anglo involvement.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Yet the central&western European Black Madonnas
were all made after the Moorish invasions and
right on up to and through the trans-Atlantic
slavery epoch. One Black Madonna is nicknamed
Slave Mama.

quote:

---

Anyway, what we see in any given statue is our private matter. What is more important for this study is what the faithful masses of past centuries saw in them and what the artists' intentions were. Were European Black Madonnas intentionally portrayed and consciously seen as African? The answer is, sometimes yes. Our Lady of Meymac with her turban points to the artist's intention of making her look African, or at least "oriental", which in the Middle Ages meant anything South or South-East of Europe.


Our Lady of Meymac,
France, 12th century

That the people regarded her and some other statues as African is proven by the epithets they were given. The French Virgins of Le Puy, Chartres, Meymac, and perhaps others, were nicknamed "the Egyptian" for centuries. The Italian Virgins of Montevergine, Somma Vesuviana, and Napoli are all called "Mamma Schiavone", Slave Mama. (Mary Beth Moser, Honoring Darkness, p.77)



Our Lady of Le Puy (left, photo: Francis Debaisieux)
and Chartres (right), France, both are reproductions,
because the originals were burnt during the revolution,
like witches on public execution pyres, to cries of:
"Death to the Egyptian!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

No, it was part of some mystical tradition, regular depictions of Jesus and Mary where always European looking to the point of Jesus being blond at times. And with subsequent conflicts were darker folks like the Moors, European participation in Black salvery etc it would be quite bizarre for them to think of Mary as African.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^
Blond Jesus is a recent fad. Prior to that Europeans depicted Jesus as a Southern European/Greek looking man.

I doubt all the Madonnas were Mythical...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Yet the central&western European Black Madonnas
were all made after the Moorish invasions and
right on up to and through the trans-Atlantic
slavery epoch. One Black Madonna is nicknamed
Slave Mama.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Yet the central&western European Black Madonnas
were all made after the Moorish invasions and
right on up to and through the trans-Atlantic
slavery epoch. One Black Madonna is nicknamed
Slave Mama.

quote:

---

Anyway, what we see in any given statue is our private matter. What is more important for this study is what the faithful masses of past centuries saw in them and what the artists' intentions were. Were European Black Madonnas intentionally portrayed and consciously seen as African? The answer is, sometimes yes. Our Lady of Meymac with her turban points to the artist's intention of making her look African, or at least "oriental", which in the Middle Ages meant anything South or South-East of Europe.


Our Lady of Meymac,
France, 12th century

That the people regarded her and some other statues as African is proven by the epithets they were given. The French Virgins of Le Puy, Chartres, Meymac, and perhaps others, were nicknamed "the Egyptian" for centuries. The Italian Virgins of Montevergine, Somma Vesuviana, and Napoli are all called "Mamma Schiavone", Slave Mama. (Mary Beth Moser, Honoring Darkness, p.77)



Our Lady of Le Puy (left, photo: Francis Debaisieux) and Chartres (right), France, both are reproductions, because the originals were burnt during the revolution, like witches on public execution pyres, to cries of: "Death to the Egyptian!"

---

Above quote courtesy of Interfaith Marian Pilgrimages website.

BTW - learn to use the reply function to separate
your posting from the original postings of others
elsewise when replying to you it's impossible to
distinguish what you actually wrote since when
replying all entry is bolded.

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

No, it was part of some mystical tradition, regular depictions of Jesus and Mary where always European looking to the point of Jesus being blond at times. And with subsequent conflicts were darker folks like the Moors, European participation in Black salvery etc it would be quite bizarre for them to think of Mary as African.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^
I don't know what to tell you. I agree with you that Jesus was depicted as a White person in Early European Xtian art. All I can guess is that the Moorish(Non Muslim) Christians, such as the Ethiopian/Nubian Christians must have impacted Europeans. Don't forger that Nubian Christians helped in the Crusades. Maybe it came as a shock to Euroepans who never seen a black person or always assumed blacks were Muslims practicing an older form of Christianity. I know the Ethiopians depicted Mary and Christ as black, maybe the Ethiopians had an impact on Crusader Europeans. But then the question is, Why in the Mother/Son pose??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Really? What is the ratio of madonna vs solo
statuary in the Isis religion of the Roman
empire (not the native Egyptian Auset worship
which is not the same as the Isiac Mysteries)?



Typical Roman Empire Isiac Mysteries image of Isis

---

I'm referring to statues of Isis as mother cradling her son Heru. The vast number of Isis statues were in this form especially those in the household.
 

---

Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Earliest depiction of Mary and Jesus from Europe (Book of Kells):



Yep, very black indeed with that pale white skin, thin noses and straight-wavy red-blonde hair.
 

---

Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] ^^^^
Blond Jesus is a recent fad. Prior to that Europeans depicted Jesus as a Southern European/Greek looking man. Blond Jesus probably came when Anglo Saxons became the dominant power in Christianity(As the Book of Kells depicts a blond Christ).

---

The Book of Kells is the earliest depiction of Mary and Jesus from Europe.
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
^^^
Asshole the Earliest depictions of Jesus are in the catacombs of Rome in the first century, Hell the Book of Kells is not even the Earliest Christ image in the British Isles let alone Rome and the East.

SMH, Damn boy you are retarded.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LMAO Yeah, I was about to say that actually the earliest depictions of Jesus and Mary in Europe proper is in GREECE where Christianity first entered Europe! How the hell can the first depictions of the Madonna and child come from the Book of Kells all the way in Ireland and 800 years after Roman Empire became Christian??!!

Also Ireland was well outside the range of the Roman Empire and definitely the sphere of Isis cult. So of course no Black Madonna is known there as it is throughout Romanized Europe!

Castratedhide is an idiot and not worthy of any serious time.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
DJ

Can you put up images of Roman Empire household
statuettes of Isis in madonna pose owned by Isis
Mysteries worshippers not Egyptian Auset worshippers?

Any info on them would be a great help to me.
I can't find a single provenanced museum
holding of a Roman Isis as Madonna. One would
imagine them very common if household items.


All I can find are the sistrum in raised right
hand and situla in carrying left hand pose --
borrowed from Egyptian lotus stalk in extended
right hand and ankh in carrying left hand --
which is Isis Cybele and a few Isis Fortuna versions.

Eirene and Ploutos (far right) is about the closest I
find to a Roman pre-Christian Madonna and Child.



 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

right from the get go
there are black Jesuses and black Marys....


My question is applicable to the earliest
representations in the catacombs

---

catacombs of Rome,




Virgin and Child - Wall painting from the Roman catacombs
4th Century



Christ AD 375.




Jesus with Apostles, Catacomb, Rome, c.350




Haloed Portrait, Catacomb, Rome, 4th C
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Jeri

quote:

---

Yes, I know for a fact that the Nubian Kingdoms sent men to help in the Crusades, and Ethiopia would send representatives to Jerusalem

---

Even before the Crusades Western Christians could count on Axum/Ethiopia as an ally the second invasion of Yemen was such an effort

Around 523, the Jewish king Dhu Nuwas came to power in Yemen and, announcing that he would kill all the Christians, attacked an Aksumite garrison at Zafar, burning the city's churches. He then attacked the Christian stronghold of Najran, slaughtering the Christians who would not convert. Emperor Justin I of the Eastern Roman empire requested that his fellow Christian, Kaleb, help fight the Yemenite king, and around 525, Kaleb invaded and defeated Dhu Nuwas, appointing his Christian follower Sumuafa' Ashawa' as his viceroy.
http://www.ethiopia.alloexpat.com/ethiopia_information/history_of_ethiopia.php
Then there maybe certain intrigue between Axumite Lalibela and Knights Templar in Jerusalem, when he was a King in waiting,later on in the fifteen hundreds Ethiopia would send envoys to Portugal for assistance in fighting Islamic armies..only to kick them out after ending of hostilities.

So there is along history of links to Western Christians.

(634-644 A.D.) khalif Omar is said to have confirmed Ethiopian physical presence in Jerusalem’s Christian holy places, including the Church of St. Helena, which encompasses the Holy Sepulchre of the Lord Jesus Christ.

His firman or directive of 636 declared “the Iberian and Abyssinian communities remain there” while also recognizing the rights of other Christian communities to make pilgrimages in the Christian holy places of Jerusalem.

Because Jerusalem and the region around it, has been subjected to frequent invasions and changing landlords, stakes in the holy places were often part of the political whims of respective powers that be.

Subsequently, upon their conquest of Jerusalem in 1099, the Crusaders had kicked out Orthodox/Coptic monks from the monasteries and installed Augustine monks instead. However, when in 1187 Salaheddin wrested Jerusalem from the Crusaders, he restored the presence of the Ethiopian and other Orthodox/Coptic monks in the holy places.
http://www.tadias.com/08/16/2008/history-of-ethiopian-church-presence-in-jerusalem/
Good reading Klik me^
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Brada-Anansi

Man Brada, Tadias has an wealth of knowledge about Modern and Ancient Ethiopia.

This website deserves respect, and so do you for finding it.

Peace
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Asshole the Earliest depictions of Jesus are in the catacombs of Rome in the first century, Hell the Book of Kells is not even the Earliest Christ image in the British Isles let alone Rome and the East.
======

I said Mary and Jesus. Not just Jesus.

The book of Kells is the earliest Madonna and child depiction from Europe. It shows them both as white and blonde.

Basically it proves the original madonna and child statues were blonde and white but some over time darkened.
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 
Look at the original photos on the first page -

Yes, they are dark/black...

However most of them you can clearly see where originally white because of their facial features - thin noses, straight-wavy hair. None (except possibly 1) look negroid.
 

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Posted by cassiterides (Member # 18409) on :
 


Look at facial features, hair texture etc. They aren't negroid.
 

---

Posted by melchior7 (Member # 18960) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^
Asshole the Earliest depictions of Jesus are in the catacombs of Rome in the first century, Hell the Book of Kells is not even the Earliest Christ image in the British Isles let alone Rome and the East.

SMH, Damn boy you are retarded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cassiterides:
Asshole the Earliest depictions of Jesus are in the catacombs of Rome in the first century, Hell the Book of Kells is not even the Earliest Christ image in the British Isles let alone Rome and the East.
======

I said Mary and Jesus. Not just Jesus.

The book of Kells is the earliest Madonna and child depiction from Europe. It shows them both as white and blonde.

Basically it proves the original madonna and child statues were blonde and white but some over time darkened.

---

Virgin and Child - Wall painting from the Roman catacombs 4th Century


ha ha lioness bringing satisfatcion to no one
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
You are a retard, the very idea of a Virgin and Mother came to Ireland from the Romans. You realize the people who created the Book of Kells were Romanized, spoke latin and trained in Rome. The Earliest Virgin and Child and Christ depictions come from the Jewish Catacombs.

At least familiarize your retarded ass on the subject before stepping into the ring.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cassiterides:
Asshole the Earliest depictions of Jesus are in the catacombs of Rome in the first century, Hell the Book of Kells is not even the Earliest Christ image in the British Isles let alone Rome and the East.
======

I said Mary and Jesus. Not just Jesus.

The book of Kells is the earliest Madonna and child depiction from Europe. It shows them both as white and blonde.

Basically it proves the original madonna and child statues were blonde and white but some over time darkened.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Yes the black madonnna is a continuation of Isis worship, but over and above all it is a symbol of the blackness of the universe as the womb of creation. Many of the black deities around the world have the same symbolism including those from Ancient Egypt. Black skin=creation=infinite unseen creative force of god in universe. Just like white=light=sun=the physical symbol of gods infinite beneficial presence in creation. Duality.

Mary/Isis=veil of creation=mystery of creation=fertile universe that births gods seed =physical manifestation of gods hidden infinite creative force=mother nature Horus/Jesus=sun=son=gods seed in flesh=birth of physical universe from unseen force in nature

But that symbolic aspect was subsumed later by a more sinister political/social aspect. In this form, the white jesus and mary (which is not a phenotype that would have been predominant in Nazareth at that time anyway) are simply a form of idealized man/woman, and the holy family an archetype of the royal family where divine rule was the basis of the rule of kings. And from this came the conquests of later years where the same iconography was used to push the European phenotype and bloodline as the basis for colonial dominion over all others.

So given all of that it is extremely interesting to see that Europe still has the vestiges and legacy of the old icons showing the historical basis of the image of Mary and Jesus being based on the earlier Egyptian form.

I have said this many times, but man makes god in his own image. And this is true in every culture no matter what, even though some do use animals and mythical creatures at times.

---

as I said before, Mary and Jesus were Dinka rather than Egyptian or Arab

While Osiris is sometimes depicted as jet black skinned on the symbolic level you mention Isis is not:



Book of the Earth, part D, scene 6: corpse of Osiris attended by Isis, Horus and Nephthys.





Kheker frieze; Isis with Horemheb (scene 2).




Anubis preparing royal mummy attended by Isis and Nephthys

The Egyptians lightened up Mary.
The Europeans returned her to her orginal true Black state
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
When I posted this second one a couple of years ago



I chose it over the first one because:
1 - it was from the official caretakers of the catacomb;
2 - it is crisp and clear, not washed out and faint;
3 - it reveals catacomb paint details the other doesn't.

Here is webpage presenting the both of them
Christ and the Apostles, Domitilla Catacombs, Rome (4th cent.)


I really don't see what the fuss is here but to compare
the facial features of the main figure for any contrast
one can just hold down the CTL key while pressing the
+ key until the desired resolution is attained (tip
of the hat to Swenet).

Besides the dark skin and not so European facial
features this fresco stands out for lack of beards.

Questions about the authenticity of either photo can be addressed to

CATACOMBS OF DOMITILLA
Via delle Sette Chiese, 282 – 00147 ROME
Phone: +39 06 51 103 42 / +39 06 51 33 956;
Fax: +39 06 51 35 461
info@domitilla.it
www.catacombe.domitilla.it
Director: Brother Kassius Schmitz

according to the Vatican's website INFORMATION FOR THE VISIT TO THE CATACOMBS
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
When I posted this second one a couple of years ago

1)

2)

I chose it over the first one because:
1 - it was from the official caretakers of the catacomb;
2 - it is crisp and clear, not washed out and faint;
3 - it reveals catacomb paint details the other doesn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

DJ

Can you put up images of Roman Empire household
statuettes of Isis in madonna pose owned by Isis
Mysteries worshippers not Egyptian Auset worshippers?

Any info on them would be a great help to me.
I can't find a single provenanced museum
holding of a Roman Isis as Madonna. One would
imagine them very common if household items.


All I can find are the sistrum in raised right
hand and situla in carrying left hand pose --
borrowed from Egyptian lotus stalk in extended
right hand and ankh in carrying left hand --
which is Isis Cybele and a few Isis Fortuna versions.

Eirene and Ploutos (far right) is about the closest I
find to a Roman pre-Christian Madonna and Child.

---

Unfortunately I have the same problem.

I could only find Madonna Isis and Horus child statues that were of original Egyptian style only.



I have even seen statues where the skin color of both mother and child are black but not any Greco-Romanized versions. I have only READ that such Greco-Romanized versions exist.

Perhaps Myra could find them.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
A mother with her child, so what? That's universal



a Colima figure depicting a Mother holding a child, from Pre-Columbian Mexico, circa 200 B.C. - 200 A.D.

Are we to now assume that Pre Columbian religion was another rip off of Egyptian religion?


The point of the Virgin birth was that Jesus was pure because no sex went on to produce him.
That is not the point with Isis and Horus

The Divine Mother nursing her infant Bronze figure of Isis and Horus
From North Saqqara, Egypt
Late Period, after 600 BC
British Museum

Osiris became god of the dead, and the transmission of his rule to his son Horus, a metaphor for the divine origins of Egyptian kingship. Isis was revered for her skills with magic, sufficient to revive Osiris for long enough to conceive a child. Horus, as Harpokrates, was given power over dangerous animals to protect him from Seth.

These original Catholics were blacker then those white ass Egyptian queens
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 


I chose to post this one two years ago here for the
primary reason that it was from the Vatican's own
official caretakers of the Domitilla catacombs who
saw absolutely nothing at all wrong about it in the least.

Anybody questioning its authenticity needs to take
it up with the given contact Brother Kassius Schmitz.

CATACOMBS OF DOMITILLA
Via delle Sette Chiese, 282 – 00147 ROME
Phone: +39 06 51 103 42 / +39 06 51 33 956;
Fax: +39 06 51 35 461
info@domitilla.it
www.catacombe.domitilla.it
Director: Brother Kassius Schmitz


Meanwhile here's another photo of the same scene



to compare and contrast with the other two already.

This fresco stands out because its characters are
brown unlike the majority where they are white as
I noted here and as today where all biblical people
are depicted as white with none of the major players
ever painted or appearing on TV or in movies with
brown skin.

Jari posted the below who resembles the central
character in the Domitilla Last Supper fresco.



Jari, can you fill us in on the provenance of this
image and who it is supposed to represent, please?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
It seems unlikely the idols revered as Black Madonna
have anything to do with the Roman Isis of the Isiac
Mysteries System of the far flung Roman Empire outside
of Egypt. Until corrected by primary evidence, i.e., some
document or artpiece manufactured outside Egypt for
Roman Empire Isis worship, there are no Iside statues,
statuettes, mini-shrines, or paintings of Roman Isis as
Madonna with Child thus no such images with pitch black
colored skin (hence the name Black Madonna).

Unlike some Byzantine imagery of brown complexioned
Israelites and Judaeans the pitch blackness of the Black
Madonna is darker than what Judaeans of the first centuries
CE described themselves. They alluded to boxwood, honey,
and intermediate human hues when speaking of their skin
colour. Their hosts would have seen various shades of brown
when looking at their Judaean contemporaries.

That being so, why are the Black Madonnas pitch black?
Leading to the question of the age of the earliest ones.
How did brown Byzantine Madonnas become black in Europe
whereas white Byzantine Madonnas retain their colour in
European borrowings if not their eastern facial character?


The style of rendition and the clothing can help date this idol.



The Black Madonna Our Lady of Oropa supposedly dates
to no later than 371 CE. It was meant to displace or
rechannel the religion practiced there at the time. But
who was being worshipped in 4th century Oropa in
Italy? It was not Isis.

The cave home of Our Lady of Oropa sits in the midst
of what was a sacred grove to Apollo. Stone and water
in the area were holy to various Goddesses.

The Black Madonna of Oropa was not installed to mask
over any worship of Isis. She was not in a site once of
an original Isis worship shifted to Catholicism.

Our Lady of Oropa is not Isis in disguise.
 

---

Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Everyone knows (or should know) that the black Madonna and child are based on Isis and her baby Horus. (Black being a symbol of divinity and new life in Egypt.) There is even evidence to suggest that in Europe dark colored goddesses symbolized fertile earth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
Women who have children can be seen with their children, that's unversal.

---

quote:

---

If Christian artists were inspired by Auset and baby Horus statues or not is does not necessarily mean Christianity is Egyptian religion.

---

I would say that a religion is more than the mere title to it. Think beyond language (which changes, ever try reading Middle and Old English ), beyond the mere wordings of "Xtianity" vis-a-vis "Egyptian religion".

What I'm saying is that concepts can exist and have been the same, just written in another language, before the existence of either the English language or the term "Xtianity" anywhere.

Notice though that I am not saying that Christianity is "Ancient Egyptian religion" -- I in fact do not believe this.

After this (the above), the post just starts to get retarded, seemingly almost purposely.

quote:

---

In most tomb paintings Egyptians did not depict Isis as jet black.

When the Egyptians did depict certain figures like Osiris sometimes as jet black, the black color is associated with the Afterlife. Mary is not associated with the afterlife.

---

I'm not even gonna quote the rest.

Anyway, it would seem Mary does in deed live on after her life at least in Catholic religion.

Aside from that, there is also the deity of potency & virility, & fertility, phallic god Min who was depicted jet black.

There are many depictions of Heru that aren't black, and even of Ausar who isn't black, and Auset does get associated with afterlife, so once again you have no point and are merely speaking out of your ass.
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
Altakruri, to answer your question the photo I posted is of Christ from a 4th century catacomb.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.frateroleg.name/gallery/wilpert.htm&ei=FT2JTorwI8n5sQLEkuFK&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDUQ7gEwAQ&prev =/search%3Fhl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1090%26bih%3D706%26tbs%3Dsbi:AMhZZithLvIsvRDpecjp9DgLm6GZ6tIqeh7xhXwrE_13xiAL7ARBChTTaR6hTKnGZ6NekxQ-yCmk6zbkJVVOOOL8hfkXUJmiGgXSB6s5derl7ekBwBA Rn5RyExoLVC_1j24h2TBcy1soD7MPEAwU0LJVlic04aXpMNzx43iXw_1c2wL_1DqhReS6U9GiBOWw5UXp9j6ZTH9n5yExVs_1JzmqNvzuhSjAbuZ37i40S9VXVwi4fRxsTefSXj8usJcECgQxQHZRtIKUnW7LhBCytWyRCNZjOZT9J1weGK9 qrU9hnmL6VS6AsCkBza-kofZxuIvscm0EoFZU35jCTb2kyAiSxFAq55pCiDFHsFzbD0qIVBGMS9gDROP9KIJPKDVZZVbAMylqMjrhKtYpT1EnqLjM7ZtSRB2ZMA9RWvDWEc4Qp7qLXI0VlKdnErK10FlU0Fn_1guGshmmWoEHYxOvPeA7cTC bDvRs6cPjke9smOg3uis9MszPTIyjAbrb3f7ljoMDaHuuMuYt2AVX5gY-X0V1Oaw-ktX78qkQzBZb0PFRzK_1JIY5lq-wMut0CsDDZdff2Jj8WQNNdK_1x5gSSrkYpUPp0DYj0ejek21n4sJ1jE-HYK4ceGiEhsTeeaAHXky6D7H0CkoeKpb 0Av3cdyDTMpuMR0L1dncU6lqJWmfdkN_1JcWyh3w2e-SDBKkevHi0mj7q2wX5uCMOgKhHhBEb6j8dJaSQQvzFyl0eoS8s9iJ267-a5FEffA5oAC9C3fgLVmTJBU2WTcFeRBigkoZusnzy-BEzW6Qu2JApNRe2mOh9ruiNVVQzqGHEHhstSpU WhZjBBW6ZWPzHpqgLmnyGJeP-kAVJ2khFrfJY9j754UEZelRoJ0diafS1z9wyXm4X85YFEVBKp9PpnLG7KnJE5D2l-Cc2Rbwm5UUFqzaimawsX0S-WHH2ssY0nauXwKsRgYRXkyFL_1e7aA7sQPCA99wua1mFqSru6ENH8_1YN5sTxt_15aP qUAnWPkNvIXFvLsWwRjhqizK-U-yd7StUt_10k354mqJZdlfIwKV9zSXpCoJWUqCHT4PcTHLeUbuaHVXbMGSl2klb9j9MgB2CQ9xRiLKZj4ve5vcH_1pBokcd19uWhU_1SbSHadiYW2cP_1uj5DQSjZ9pSGmRcqwk4wrhoyd5IgXocY3kqM5 InGjDjahUXZ3A1CVSBb5R3WRwGytD0maIxKu0HAaSEKJM92RUzCC3YkXDtugZ6-966vdmLw21vYMOlYDmEKk5_1ao-XoeEmEZcEG9pCq6k5lwk02Vs%26prmd%3Dimvns

The site is in Russian but you should be able to find it...the Images are also found in a book titled "Portraits of Christ"..





info-

In 1903 he published a book researcher Joseph Vilperta (1857-1944) "Painting the catacombs of Rome" (German: Die Malerei der Katakomben Roms), in which he introduced the first photos of the frescoes of the catacombs (in black and white photographs of personally Vilpert painted in the colors of the original image) . Here are some of the photographs illustrating the development of Christian art in chronological order (II-IV centuries)..

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:


Jari, can you fill us in on the provenance of this
image and who it is supposed to represent, please?

---

 

---

Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 
astraloid jesus?
 

---

Posted by malibudusul (Member # 19346) on :
 






The Bible says that
jesus had wooly hair?
 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I find it odd that people only complain and question images that go against their notions.

Here is Christ of the Domitilla Tomb more clear..





As you can see clearly the Christ images has darkened but his Eyes and Clothes still retain a White/Light coloring. How come only his complexion somehow managed to darken?? Why not his clothes..??

[img]http://www.frateroleg.name/gallery/wilpert/54.jpg[img]
^^^^
The Full Image since you seem to be so bothered that a few people are missing from Al's pic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
When I posted this second one a couple of years ago

1)

2)

I chose it over the first one because:
1 - it was from the official caretakers of the catacomb;
2 - it is crisp and clear, not washed out and faint;
3 - it reveals catacomb paint details the other doesn't.

---

If the the second one is more accurate, and in the context of looking at a number of catacomb paintings do you conclude that
the people depicted in it are intened to look African or are they indended to look as Jari put it " Europeans depicted Jesus as a Southern European/Greek " ?

Looking at the your second remark about this second version:

"2 - it is crisp and clear, not washed out and faint"

that is precicely why the first version is truer.
The condition of this appoximately seventeen hundred year old fresco is faded. The whites are no longer bright and crisp. If you live in an apartment that has white painted walls, they get dirty and after a few years require a new paint job. This applies here but they never got the new paint job. The very crisp brightness of the second photo indicates that the photo has been enhanced with contrast controls of a standard photo editing program. When contrast is enhanced on photos the lights become brighter and the darks become darker, middle tone values become less.
The Fresco is from the Catacombs of Domitilla. The top photo reveals 10 of the apostles. The second photo is cropped more and shows only eight, the lower two on each far end is cut off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I find it odd that people only complain and question images that go against their notions.

Here is Christ of the Domitilla Tomb more clear..





As you can see clearly the Christ images has darkened but his Eyes and Clothes still retain a White/Light coloring. How come only his complexion somehow managed to darken?? Why not his clothes..??

---

^^^The top photo, the detail of Chisst's head, is in fact less clear, less accurate than the previous two discussed.
It's too dark and the color is off also, too greenish rather than browns. The only advantage is that it's bigger here

When the contast control is increased in a photo editing program the darks get darker and the lights get lighter.
If you see bright white in an old fresco it probably means that the contrast of the photo has been artifically enhanced and you can see that the whites are too bright in both photos above

An extreme example of this is when the effet "posterization" is used (see second to last below)


High Contrast photo:


the darks are daker and the lights are lighter.
The are less middle tone. In this example no mid range grays.

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
. Prior to that Europeans depicted Jesus as a Southern European/Greek looking man

---

Do you apply that to the above Roman catacomb painting or are you saying that in this case they are depicting Jesus as an African?
 

---

Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
You're incessant with the retarded comments.

It looks like it was just taken with a bright (but not too bright) flash camera with a good contrast to it, besides that, I'm not sure a bout the hair, it's fuzzy, but, he's certainly darker than I.
 

---

Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld//files/2010/06

Reuters

By Philip Pullella
ROME | Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:49pm EDT

Archaeologists find oldest paintings of apostles





(Reuters) - Archaeologists and art restorers using new laser technology have discovered what they believe are the oldest paintings of the faces of Jesus Christ's apostles.

The images in a branch of the catacombs of St Tecla near St Paul's Basilica, just outside the walls of ancient Rome, were painted at the end of the 4th century or the start of the 5th century.

Archaeologists believe these images may have been among those that most influenced later artists' depictions of the faces of Christ's most important early followers.

"These are the first images that we know of the faces of these four apostles," said Professor Fabrizio Bisconti, the head of archaeology for Rome's numerous catacombs, which are owned and maintained by the Vatican.

The frescoes were known but their details came to light during a restoration project that started two years ago and whose results were announced on Tuesday at a news conference.

The full-face icons include visages of St Peter, St Andrew, and St John, who were among Jesus' original 12 apostles, and St Paul, who became an apostle after Christ's death.

The paintings have the same characteristics as later images, such as St Paul's rugged, wrinkled and elongated forehead and balding head and pointy beard, indicating they may have been the ones which set the standard.

The four circles, about 50 cm in diameter, are on the ceiling of the underground burial place of a noblewoman who is believed to have converted to Christianity at the end of the same century when the emperor Constantine made it legal.

Bisconti explained that older paintings of the apostles show them in a group, with smaller faces whose details are difficult to distinguish.

"This is a very important discovery in the history of the early Christian communities of Rome," said Bisconti.

LASER "SURGERY"

The frescoes inside the tomb measuring about 2 meters by 2 meters were covered with a thick patina of powdery calcium carbonate caused by extreme humidity and no air circulation.

"We took our time to do extensive analysis before deciding what technique to use," said Barbara Mazzei, who headed the project. She explained how she used a laser as an "optical scalpel" to make the calcium carbonate fall off without damaging the paint.

"The laser created a sort of a mini explosion of steam when it interacted with the calcium carbonate to make it detach from the surface," she said.

The result was stunning clarity in the images that were before blurry and opaque.

The wrinkles on St Paul's forehead, for example, are clear and the whiteness of St Peter's beard has re-emerged.

"It was very, very emotional to discover this," said Mazzei.

Other scenes from the Bible, such as Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead or Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son Isaac, are now also much clearer and brighter.

"As far as paintings inside catacombs go, we are used to very faint paintings, usually white, with few colors. In the case of the St Tecla catacombs, the great surprise was the extraordinary colors. The more we went forward, the more surprises we found," Mazzei said.

The tomb, in a web of catacombs under a modern building, is not yet open to the public because of continued work, difficult access and limited space. Bisconti said the new discoveries will be made available for viewing by specialists for the time being.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Whatbox:
You're incessant with the retarded comments.

It looks like it was just taken with a bright (but not too bright) flash camera with a good contrast to it, besides that, I'm not sure a bout the hair, it's fuzzy, but, he's certainly darker than I.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Did you bother to...

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
________________________________________________
In the Roman catacombs Jesus, Mary and the Apostles are depicted as African people.
________________________________________________

If you can't make this statement I can't keep dancing with you about photo quality. There needs to be a point behind that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:
There is no point in anybody here discussing in detail about photo accuracy if they are not going take a stand,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB] I don't require any of this in this my thread on
the fact that white Catholic Europe is the biggest
booster of Black Madonna and Child and has been for
over 1000 years.

All I expect sincere contributors to this thread to
do is present whatever they know or can find out
about the miracle working Black Madonna idols found
throughout Roman Catholic Europe. My intent is not
to polarize people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^
The Use of Afronut was in response to the character going by the moniker Afronut slayer aka Gigantic.

Lionesse you asked me..

Do you apply that to the above Roman catacomb painting or are you saying that in this case they are depicting Jesus as an African?

I think its clear that majority of the Art depicts people typical of Roman/Greek/Southern European phenotype. However there are black portraits, clearly blacks were among the first converts. People depict Christ in their image..

Here is the Link to the Catacomb Images untranslated..

http://www.frateroleg.name/gallery/wilpert.htm#

You can see a clear mix of Pheonotype, Artistic Renditions and skin shades. Notice there are hardly any Dark Skinned Christs after the Constantine Conversion(You can tell because Christ begins to be represented by a Halo)..

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which picture in particular do you think represents an African person and not someone who looks like this:

 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^
The Use of Afronut was in response to the character going by the moniker Afronut slayer aka Gigantic.

---

"She" very well knows that but since her aim is to
disrupt and agitate. "She" cares not one whit toward
increasing the knowledge, just getting monkeys to chase
the weasel.

I can only hope sensible members don't follow "her" off the path.

I don't care anyone's personal opinion if they think
there was not or was a Jesus black skinned, white
skinned, or in between coloured.

Anybody, gimme logical reasoning and historic examples
of how and why the whites of Europe chose to magnify
Madonnas of pitch black color of an obvious wide
variety of facial features and their very choice in
wordage Black Madonna and even on occasion calling
the idol Egyptian, Ethiopian, African or even slave.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
It seems unlikely the idols revered as Black Madonna
have anything to do with the Roman Isis of the Isiac
Mysteries System of the far flung Roman Empire outside
of Egypt. Until corrected by primary evidence, i.e., some
document or artpiece manufactured outside Egypt for
Roman Empire Isis worship, there are no Iside statues,
statuettes, mini-shrines, or paintings of Roman Isis as
Madonna with Child thus no such images with pitch black
colored skin (hence the name Black Madonna).

Unlike some Byzantine imagery of brown complexioned
Israelites and Judaeans the pitch blackness of the Black
Madonna is darker than what Judaeans of the first centuries
CE described themselves. They alluded to boxwood, honey,
and intermediate human hues when speaking of their skin
colour. Their hosts would have seen various shades of brown
when looking at their Judaean contemporaries.

That being so, why are the Black Madonnas pitch black?
Leading to the question of the age of the earliest ones.
How did brown Byzantine Madonnas become black in Europe
whereas white Byzantine Madonnas retain their colour in
European borrowings if not their eastern facial character?


The style of rendition and the clothing can help date this idol.



The Black Madonna Our Lady of Oropa supposedly dates
to no later than 371 CE. It was meant to displace or
rechannel the religion practiced there at the time. But
who was being worshipped in 4th century Oropa in
Italy? It was not Isis.

The cave home of Our Lady of Oropa sits in the midst
of what was a sacred grove to Apollo. Stone and water
in the area were holy to various Goddesses.

The Black Madonna of Oropa was not installed to mask
over any worship of Isis. She was not in a site once of
an original Isis worship shifted to Catholicism.

Our Lady of Oropa is not Isis in disguise.
 

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Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:


I don't care anyone's personal opinion if they think
there was not or was a Jesus black skinned, white
skinned, or in between coloured.

Anybody gimme logical reasoning and historic examples
of how and why the whites of Europe chose to magnify
Madonnas of pitch black color

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MANGO:



The queen of heaven:
Màmma Schiavona (the black mother), the madonna of the Pignasecea: a delineation of the great idolatry - promoted by the teaching and authority of the Roman Catholic Church By Thomas W. L. Jones

quote:

---

"To the generality the conception idealized and realized is that the mother of Jesus was, a Negress, or of a very, very dark complexion"

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Download the whole book

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
The Earliest Known Image of the Virgin Mary (Circa 150 CE)



 

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Posted by Amah Jones (Member # 20610) on :
 
Roman Emperor Justinian II's coin showing Jesus Christ. Circa 692 AD


https://www.facebook.com/amah.jones?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?fbid=10151558889917436&set=a.10150653864112436.415633.519477435&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/amah.jones?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?fbid=10151543686482436&set=a.10150653864112436.415633.519477435&type=1&theater
 

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Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
Beautiful wall relief of the most ancient pictures of black Virgin Mary and black baby Jesus.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amah Jones:
Roman Emperor Justinian II's coin showing Jesus Christ. Circa 692 AD

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Amah Jones - Whenever the Albinos offer something on race, you need to cross reference it until you find the lie.


This is from your facebook;



.
BELOW:

Description: Justinian II. Second Reign, 705-711 AD. AV Solidus (4.42 gm). Constantinople. 705 AD.

dN IhS ChS REX REGNANTIUM, facing bust of Christ
DN IUSTINIA NUS MULTUS A, crowned facing bust, wearing loros, holding cross potent on base and patriarchal globus with PAX.

(Jesus on the left with the (Cornrows?).



Same administration, but the two Jesus's don't look alike.
Clearly one of the coins is a fake, hell knowing Albinos, both are probably fakes!

BTW - anyone know what the horns by the ears means?
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

A carry over from God Amun



Terminal bust of the god Zeus Ammon. Marble about AD 150-200. British Museum, London.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 
^It turns out that the protrusions were supposed to indicate parts of a cross.

But it caused me to catch the Albinos in another lie.


FROM THE COIN SITE:



Constantinople mint, obverse IhS CRISTOS REX RETNANTIVM, bust of Christ facing with long hair and full beard, cross behind, right raised, Gospels in left; reverse IVSTINIANVS SERV CHRISTI, Justinian standing facing, wearing crown and loros, cross potent on three steps in right, akakia in left, CONO in exergue; fully lustrous, broad and well centered flan for the type, very rarely this nice!; SOLD (NOTE: No Certificate of Authenticity).




Quote from site:

Certificate of Authenticity issued by David R. Sear.

Superb and one of the finest style and grade specimens offered in the past few years.

The portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ?s actual appearance.

Constantinople mint, second reign, with Tiberius, 705 - 711 A.D.; obverse O N IhS ChS REX REGNANTIYM, bust of Christ facing, curly hair, short beard, wearing pallium and colobium, Gospels in left, cross behind head;



Quote from site:

he portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ’s actual appearance.




Quote from site:

The portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ’s actual appearance.


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=819&pos=0&sold=1

quote:

---

Originally posted by DHDoxies:
Stinking Black men always trying to divide my White brothers from his White sisters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^It turns out that the protrusions were supposed to indicate parts of a cross.

But it caused me to catch the Albinos in another lie.


FROM THE COIN SITE:



Constantinople mint, obverse IhS CRISTOS REX RETNANTIVM, bust of Christ facing with long hair and full beard, cross behind, right raised, Gospels in left; reverse IVSTINIANVS SERV CHRISTI, Justinian standing facing, wearing crown and loros, cross potent on three steps in right, akakia in left, CONO in exergue; fully lustrous, broad and well centered flan for the type, very rarely this nice!; SOLD (NOTE: No Certificate of Authenticity).




Quote from site:

Certificate of Authenticity issued by David R. Sear.

Superb and one of the finest style and grade specimens offered in the past few years.

The portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ?s actual appearance.

Constantinople mint, second reign, with Tiberius, 705 - 711 A.D.; obverse O N IhS ChS REX REGNANTIYM, bust of Christ facing, curly hair, short beard, wearing pallium and colobium, Gospels in left, cross behind head;



Quote from site:

he portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ’s actual appearance.




Quote from site:

The portrait on this coin was based on an icon believed by the people of the time to bear a miraculous resemblance to Christ’s actual appearance.


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=819&pos=0&sold=1

---

Based on the Fake and the authentic coins above, we now know that Jesus was originally depicted with curly hair:

Thus artifacts like this "supposed" 17th century medal of Martin Luther is a fake. Because the Black Holy Roman Emperors would not allow Fake depictions of an Albino Jesus with long straight hair to exist. Thus this medal was made after the fall of the Holy Roman Empire (1806).



 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
WOw... Just Wow... This thread is truly amazing. Never knew there was a good case for Jesus and his mother being black. I thought it was just an Afronuts wet dream!

@alTakruri

Mind if I use these sources on another site?

I'm asking your permission. Plus I'm going to research further on this.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
WOw... Just Wow... This thread is truly amazing. Never knew there was a good case for Jesus and his mother being black. I thought it was just an Afronuts wet dream!

---

What do you mean by that? Are you admitting your past ignorance, and celebrating your introduction to truth?

Please know that Afrocentrism is a scientific discipline, not a soapbox platform. It is about revealing hidden truth, and exposing lies.

As to a Black Jesus:

Those who believe that a man native to the area of Canaan could possibly be White, are certifiably delusional, stupid, or both.

Here, want to use this?





Link to more of same:


http://realhistoryww.com./world_history/ancient/Misc/Jesus/Jesus.htm
 

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Posted by CelticWarrioress (Member # 19701) on :
 
Wrong Mike, Afrocentrism is about lies, claiming what isn't yours and Black supremacy. Its all about Get Whitey, Kill Whitey, Get him/her, kill him/her. Its all about "me hate Whitey chest bang chest bang, me hate Whitey chest bang chest bang, kill Whitey, get Whitey". Its all about trying to make Blacks out to superior & Whites out to be inferior non-humans. Mike stop posting the dang links to your site like its a reliable source. Its not it is a biased anti-White, White people hating, Black racist, Black supremacist site.
 

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Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Wrong Mike, Afrocentrism is about lies, claiming what isn't yours and Black supremacy. Its all about Get Whitey, Kill Whitey, Get him/her, kill him/her. Its all about "me hate Whitey chest bang chest bang, me hate Whitey chest bang chest bang, kill Whitey, get Whitey". Its all about trying to make Blacks out to superior & Whites out to be inferior non-humans. Mike stop posting the dang links to your site like its a reliable source. Its not it is a biased anti-White, White people hating, Black racist, Black supremacist site.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
I do remember saying that I love White people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike111:
^You have to learn how to recognize the loons and weed them out Doxie.

And btw - I love White people.

---

Doxie dear, the proof is indisputable:

"YOU" ARE THE HATER!
 

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Posted by Habsburg (Member # 21824) on :
 


Floor mosaic at Beth Alpha Synagogue depicting the binding of Isaac. It is clear that even 2000 years ago the ancient Hebrews were considered to be dark-complexioned people. You might also consider whether the dark round figure attached to the hand of God is actually meant to be the face of God.



Dura Europos, Jesus raising Lazarus
 

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Posted by Tehutimes (Member # 21712) on :
 
@Blessed By Horus You actually believed crazy folks came up with [The Black Madonna & Jesus Concept]? See J.A.Rogers Sex & Race Vol.1,includes Isaiah painted black in addition to Jesus & Mary compared to Auset & Heru.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Take it from pg 1 as reference for T-hotep's St Nick thread.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
I hope you guys have saved some of the Catacomb portraits of dark and black early Chrstians as some of these images and the hosting sites are no longer available. Brother Al, I hope you are adding the images I(and others) found to your reserves.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
This Image comes from the Nunziatella Catacombs



http://clfrancisco.com/painted-gospels/
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Sa damn shame, all those lost Page 1 images Hand me a Kleenex.
Pinterest probably got 'em + a whole lot more!

The big roundup
https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/b/black-madonnas-in-various-countries.php
 

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