posted
Poland still has a black icon of the Madonna and her son, the Christian deity as a baby.
quote:I walked into the Chapel during mass, an incomprehensible sermon that only confirmed my distance from my own Polish ancestry. I joined what seemed to be a line of people waiting to see the icon. Strangely, those in the front seemed unusually short. My husband gestured at the crutches on the wall, and we thought we understood.
By the time we reached the front of the line, we realized that these visitors from Poland, Brazil, Spain and seemingly every other Catholic country were walking on their knees over the hard marble floor. They began to sing in many languages, “Czerna Madonna,” “Schwarze Madonna,” “Black Madonna.”
We circled the nave, the priests immobile and enraptured, the icon heavy with a nation’s burden. I felt like a fake, a religious dilettante, as I sang along, but it was impossible not to be affected.
Every great figure of Polish history has made the pilgrimage to see the Black Madonna. The newly elected Pope John Paul II preached there at the beginning of the Solidarity Movement in a thinly veiled anti-communist appeal. Lech Walesa flew here the day after his inauguration, as the first president of a democratic Poland, to thank the Black Madonna in person.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Black Madonna and the Destiny of The Polish Nation
Who is the “Black Madonna of Czestochowa”? What is her place in the hearts of the Polish people and of the Polish nation? What part did she play in defending the faith and culture of Poland in the second half of the 20th century?
Our Lady of Czestochowa is most aptly described as the Mother of the Polish Nation. It is she who is sent by God to protect her Polish sons and daughters from every “confrontation” that “…lies within the plans of Divine Providence” (Karol Cardinal Wojyla, Farewell address 1976 Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia)
She is the “Woman” promised in Genesis 3:15 who comes to comfort, love and guide her children, as “…in God's Plan”, they confront every trial which the Church “…must take up, and face courageously.”(ibid)
The Black Madonna of Czestochowa icon was, according to legend, painted by St. Luke on a cypress table top taken from the house of the Holy Family. In this beautiful icon, the Blessed Virgin Mary manifests both her humility and shows us our path by pointing with her right hand to Jesus, the source of our salvation.
In the 17th century, she saved the Jasnan Gora monastery from The Deluge, changing the course of the war in the fight against the Swedish invasion. In thanksgiving for this great favour from Heaven, King Jan Kazimierz crowned the Black Madonna as Queen and Protector of Poland in the Cathedral of Lwow on April 1, 1656. From that moment on, she became the “Mother of the Polish Nation” serving as the icon of unity for all her Polish children.
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quote:A German correspondent, resident in New York City, wrote me as regards the Black Virgin of her native land Bavaria, saying that for years she has been trying to tell Americans that Christ and the Virgin Mary were black but they would not believe her, "Every Catholic knows that Santa Maria was an Aethiopan."
... to be continued.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: I myself was born in a strictly Catholic country in South Germany and in our churches the biggest reference is given to Santa Maria as Mother of God, and we have statues of the Madonna as well as pictures, which are the original sculpyures or paintings on wood and stone, dating as far back as 800 to 1000 years and more.
The faces of these images are black and of Negroid type, particularly the Madonnas of Constuchen in Tolers and the Mother of God statue in Alt-Olting in Bavaria near Munich, which was brought from Palstine more than 1000 years ago by Ritter von Heiligers Lande.
These two Madonnas particularly are held in the highest esteem in Catholic countries and hundreds of thousands of pilgrims go to these places to do homage to the Mother of Christ every year and wonderful healings of all kinds of illnesses are reported to the public.
Every Catholic knows that Santa Maria was an Aethiopian.
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posted
"A Black Madonna or Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark or black skin, especially those created in Europe in the medieval period or earlier. In this specialized sense "Black Madonna" does not apply to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as explicitly black African, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as the United States." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna)
All one has to do is look at the pheonotype of the image. The facial features are elongated, fine or sharp, not to mention wavy curly hair. These are atypical of the Negro. If anything, the asian hindu can make a better argument claiming the "Black Madonna."
Posts: 604 | Registered: May 2009
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THE BLACK MADONNA OF EAST 13TH STREET by Joseph Sciorra
In the early twentieth century, Sicilian immigrants established a storefront chapel for the Black Madonna del Tindari in Manhattan’s East Village. The original Sicilian statue of the Virgin Mary dates back to the Middle Ages and is associated with a passage from the Old Testament’s Song of Songs. For decades, an annual feast was celebrated in the city streets in honor of this dark-skinned Madonna. Although the New York community of believers no longer exists and the chapel has been closed, the American statue has been saved and is now in a private home in New Jersey.
Devotion to the Black Madonna has long existed in Europe. The various aspects of the dark-skinned Virgin Mary are considered miraculously powerful and are credited with having protected believers from such afflictions as earthquakes, pestilence, and the attacks of invading armies. Representations of the Black Madonna in European art depict her with a dark complexion but not "African" facial features; thus they are different from the religious images developed for local communities in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
Italy has one of the highest concentrations of Black Madonnas in all of Europe, and they are known by their gradations of skin color: nera (black), scura (dark), or bruna (tawny). The millions of Italian laborers who emigrated to the United States from 1880s to the 1920s brought their religious beliefs and practices to the New World, especially their profound devotion to the Blessed Mother, who also arrived in the form of the Madonna Nera. In particular, the cult of the Sicilian Madonna del Tindari took root in the New York metropolitan area.
Tindari is part of the municipality of Patti in the province of Messina, in northeastern Sicily. The Greeks founded the city of Tyndaris in the fourth century B.C., and the sanctuary to the Madonna was built where once stood a temple to the fertility goddess Cybele, also known as the "Great Mother."
According to a popular legend, a polychromed cedar statue was brought to Sicily from the Middle East sometime in the eighth or ninth century to save it from destruction during the Iconoclastic Wars. Yet the statue is similar in style to the Romanesque "throne of wisdom" figure, with the seated infant Jesus enthroned on his mother’s lap, created in Europe during the twelfth century.
At some point in time, the Latin words Nigra sum sed formosa ("I am black but beautiful") were inscribed on the base of the statue. This phrase is taken from the Old Testament’s Song of Songs, in which a captive shepherdess declares her love for a young shepherd to the women of King Solomon’s court. As with much of the scholarship on the origins of the Black Madonna, there is significant disagreement over the relationship of this biblical phrase to the dark figure. Feminist historian Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum maintains that the expression is a testament to the image’s Semitic antecedents. Jungian analyst Ean Begg notes that the French abbot and theologian St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) compared the shepherdess’ love to that of Mary in his influential writings; as a result, the sunburned shepherdess and Mary were conflated and images were darkened to illustrate the connection. Cultural studies scholar Monique Scheer, on the other hand, argues persuasively that Europeans, and in particular Germans, coupled the saying and images of the dark Virgin in the eighteenth century as they developed the concept of a unique "Black Madonna" and sought a theological explanation to counter the then-popularly held negative association with blackness.
In fact, it is not until 1751 that someone in Tindari distinctly mentions the statue’s color and also associates it with race. Abbot Spitaleri wrote with hyperbolic language of the "exceedingly miraculous image of the Most Holy Mary, who with marvelous portent came from Africa...which, in fact, is extremely black" (immagine miracolosissima di Maria Santissima con stupendo portento venuta dall’Africa...che in effetto è negrissima). Contemporary devotees recount a sacred narrative that illustrates the negative sentiments held at times for the Black Madonna del Tindari. According to the story, a woman made a pilgrimage to the sanctuary to give thanks for the miraculous healing of her daughter, and upon seeing the statue’s dark visage, she exclaimed, "I traveled so far to see someone uglier than me" (Sono partita da lontano per vedere una più brutta di me). The woman proclaimed her rekindled devotion to the Black Madonna after the Virgin Mary saved her child a second time.
. . . .
Three small private chapels exist on East 13th Street, New York, which is a center of Sicilians. One of these chapels, dedicated to St. Sebastian, patron saint of Minstretta, Sicily, is located at 513 East 13th Street and has been open to the public for the past 10 years. The second is the "Cappella Cattolica M. di SS. Assunta e V. B. Rosalia", at 426 East 13th Street, formerly annexed to, which is the "Cappella Maria SS. del Tindari", at 447 East 13th Street.
...
Of the three chapels, the oldest and therefore the most mysterious—since the original pioneers are deceased—is that of the Black Madonna. The Madonna is a reproduction, none too well done, of an ancient statue venerated at in Tindari, formerly an ancient city in the northerneastern part of Sicily and today a small village in the province of Messina. The original Madonna which was buried in the mountains near Tindari to save it from Turkish Saracen invasions in the seventh ninth century, was black, not because it lay moldering in flames, but as homage to the biblical description "Nigra sum, sed formosa"—"I am black, but beautiful".
The festivity of the Black Madonna was celebrated for the first time in New York on September 8, 1905. The following year, 1906, a congregation of Pattesi was established and the now existing statue of the Black Madonna was constructed under their sponsorship by Santo Bucca of Barcellona, Sicily. Though the original statue was in wood (of Libano cedar of Lebanon), the present image here in New York was constructed of stucco.
...
According to George Chinnici, the statue measures forty-seven inches from the base to the top of Mary’s head; the crown adds another eleven inches to the overall figure. The statue is clearly different stylistically from the one found in Tindari and, for that matter, Hoboken. The facial features of the Chinnici statue are rendered in a naturalistic fashion, with glass eyes, and skin coloring (and hair) that is jet black, whereas the Sicilian original has an elongated, oval face with unpainted, seemingly closed eyes, and a dark brown coloring. The infant Jesus sits on Mary’s left leg, instead of being centered directly in her lap, as in the Sicilian statue.
. . . .
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posted
Above we see that this Black Madonna's face was twice changed from what it originally was, which "a woman" considered as being ugly. Certainly a reference to the African features mentioned by the abbot Spitileri.
This isn't the only occurence of Black Madonnas changing either features or color to adapt to their worshippers sensitivities and chauvanism after the advent of the trans-Atlantic trade in enslaved Africans.
quote:It was perhaps from this country Egypt that the worship of the black Virgin and Child came into Italy and where it still prevails. It was the worship of the mother of God, Jesus, the savior; Bacchus in Greece; Adonis in Syria; Krishna in India; coming into Italy through the medium of the two Ethiopias, she was, as the Ethiopians were, black, and such she still remains.
quote: In all the Romish countries of Europe, in France Italy, Germany, etc., the God, Christ, as well as his Mother are described in the old pictures to be black. The infant God in the arms of his black mother, his eyes and drapery white, is, himself, perfectly black.
If the reader doubts my word he may go to the Cathedral at Moulins -- to the famus Chapel of the Virgin of Loretto, to the Church of the Annunciata; the Church of St. Lazaro, or the Church of St. Stephen at Genoa; to St. Fransisco at Pisa; to the Church at Brixen in the Tyrol, and at Padua; to the Church of St. Theodore at Munich, in the last two of which the whiteness of the eyes and teeth and the studied redness of he lips are observable; to a church and to the Cathedral at Augsburg, where are a black Virgin and Child as large as life; to the Borghese Chapel, Maria Maggiore; to a small Chapel of St. Peter's on the right hand side on entering near the door; and, in fact, to almost innumerable other churches in countries professing the Romish religion.
quote: There is scarcely an old church in Italy where some remains of the worship of the Black Virgin and Child are not to be met with. Very often the black figures have given way to white ones and in these cases the black ones, as being held sacred, were put in retired places in the churches, but were not destroyed, and are yet to be found there.
In many cases the images were painted all over and look like bronze; but the pictures in great numbers are to be seen, where the whites of the eyes and teeth, and the lips a little tinged with red, like the black figures in the Museum of the India Company, show that there is no imitation of bronze.
In many instances these images and pictures, not all one color, of very dark brown, are so dark as to look black.
They are generally esteemed by the rabble with the most profound veneration. the toes are often white, the brown or black paint being kissed away by the devotees, and the white wood left.
When circumstances have been named to the Romish priests they have endeavored to disguise the fact by pretending that the child had become black by the smoke of the candles; but it was black where th smoke of the candle never came; and besides how came the candles not to blacken the white teeth and the shirt, and how came they to redden the lips?
The Mother is, the author believes, always black when the child is. Their real blackness is not to be questioned for a moment.
As regards the statement that the color of the Black Virgins is due to smoke of burning candles, it may be said further that this does not account for the Negroid faces of some of these Virgins, and also for those paintings in which the Madonna is shown as black and Negroid.
The Cardiff Museum has one such painting and there is also one in the Chateau of Azay-le-Rideau. At Sales (Cantal) a tapestry shows the figures of the Holy Family black, save that of the Infant Jesus. On a church window at L'Oise, a Virgin with a black face is holding a rose colored Christ.
posted
Interesting. I guess the concept was taken as a package, from the Kemetic inspirational source.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
feet the color of burnt brass (Rev. 1:14,15)
So many religiously theme threads must be the holidayz
But it is reasonable to suppose that Catholics would be the biggest Afronut for a Black Jesus and Mary as the begining of their church was closer to the Kemetic religions than it's splinters.
Oh Altakruri if you could please provide some info on the Hebrew's being blessed Black as a Raven a new poster is looking for some answers.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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"There is also a strong religious folk tradition connecting the Black Virgins to the medieval Knights Templar and also with Mary Magdelene. A famous Black Virgin - la Madone des Fenestres (the Madonna of the Windows), near St-Martin-de-Vesubie (one site where many Templars were massacred) was believed by folk tradition in the area to have originally been brought to southern France by Mary Magdelene. Whether such legends spring from a kernel of truth, or are purely legendary, it is still intriguing to examine the sheer number of such place-names, legends, and beliefs about these subjects and their interconnections, at least in the popular mind. And that in itself says something.
St. Bernard of Clairvaux was born at Fontaines on the outskirts of Dijon, a place said to have had its own Black Virgin. He is said to have received three drops of milk taken from the breast of the Black Virgin of Chatillon while still a boy. He later went on to help the Templar order expand quickly and to preach the Second Crusade - from Vezelay, a centre of the cult of the Magdalene and a Black Virgin site. After his death, he was canonized on the same feast day, 20 August, as the founder of another major Black Virgin site - St. Amadour of Rocamadour.
In Southern Provençal tradition, the Black Madonna is associated with St. Sara, the patron saint of the Gypsies. She was said to be the black assistant who accompanied the three Marys to France when they fled from the Holy Land after the Crucifixion. In local gypsy tradition, she is said to have been a gypsy (some say 'Egyptian') woman who helped them to land safely. A cult of St. Sara persists today at Les Saintes Maries de la Mer, one of the earliest Magdalene sites in France.
The intriguing subject of the Black Virgin deserves more serious academic attention; meanwhile, it is known that the numbers of pilgrims to such shrines is increasing annually."
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posted
When I was young an old Polish nun from a convent down the street from me whispered to me that Mary was "black". I am certain that many older people of Eastern European believed that Mary was black, but that has probably changed in many places.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: All one has to do is look at the pheonotype of the image. The facial features are elongated, fine or sharp, not to mention wavy curly hair. These are atypical of the Negro.
Of all the trolls you're the most f!cking stupid dude.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: "A Black Madonna or Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark or black skin, especially those created in Europe in the medieval period or earlier. In this specialized sense "Black Madonna" does not apply to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as explicitly black African, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as the United States." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna)
All one has to do is look at the pheonotype of the image. The facial features are elongated, fine or sharp, not to mention wavy curly hair. These are atypical of the Negro. If anything, the asian hindu can make a better argument claiming the "Black Madonna."
"As regards the statement that the color of the Black Virgins is due to smoke of burning candles, it may be said further that this does not account for the Negroid faces of some of these Virgins, and also for those paintings in which the Madonna is shown as black and Negroid."
From Chateau D'Anjony in France "Black Madonna of Le-Puy"
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Don't let Afronut get away with starting a new thread to bury the info in this one. Mike please repost those catacomb frescos here and everyone post relevant material here and keep this thread on top of anything Afronut devises on the topic.
And don't forget, what doesn't matter is white paintings of Madonna and Child in white Europe but black paintings of Holiness in white Europe where white is supposed to mean sacred and pure and black is supposed to mean all that is vile.
Quite an anomally that their Mother of God and Child of God should ever be rendered as black.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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And don't forget, what doesn't matter is white paintings of Madonna and Child in white Europe but black paintings of Holiness in white Europe where white is supposed to mean sacred and pure and black is supposed to mean all that is vile.
Quite an anomally that their Mother of God and Child of God should ever be rendered as black.
Thought-provoking point.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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From Chateau D'Anjony in France "Black Madonna of Le-Puy"
Convincing anyone that these figures are black merely by candle burning would be quite a hard sell, no?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Anything you can we can to better..we can do everything better than Uuuu!! Isis was one of the first Madonnas, frequently protrayed as nursing Horus, her Divine Son. She was highly venerated during the years of the early Christian church, and most scholars agree that the cult of Isis strongly influenced the cult of Mary.
"Our Lady of Light" was one of Isis' many titles, and in one sacred story, she gave birth to the sun. It is no coincidence that Christmas, the celebration of the birth of Mary's son, The Christ, is celebrated at the same time of year as Winter Solstice, the celebration of the re-birth of the sun, the return of the light. www.northernway.org/twm/mary/mother.htmlPosts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!
-------------------- Will destroy all Black Lies Posts: 2025 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!
You dare to mention the Bass' name you lame banana nose, Negrophobic, obsessed queer? The bass is a member of the Church of Christ and as such we are not concerned with pictorical depictions of Jesus and Mary, its your European kin that were the most obsessed with that garbage, color means everything to you and them.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One doesn't make the other go away.
Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One doesn't make the other go away.
Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
A black Madonna intentionally created with black skin OBVIOUSLY implies a relationship to populations with black skin, like Africans.
There are people with black skin all over the planet. The point is that they aren't the primary population of Europe. So again, a black Madonna would HAVE to be a reference to populations with black skin and that includes Africans does it not? Or, wait, do you mean that Africans aren't blacks? Or that African blacks are some other kind of blacks from other blacks? I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
But of course, the bottom line is you really cant deny the history and tradition of black Madonnas in Europe so please stop trying to pretend to have a point.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
WOW you are an absolute genius, stupid.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Ah! So there we have it! In Doug's pseudo reality there are only two races and they are based on two skin colors; white and black. Boy! I should have guessed! There are only two colors to human skin! Black and white! And those two are factors for determining race. I should have known! Damn! How did that slip the scientific world? This is ground breaking (LOL)!
You are the bomb!!!
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Ah! So there we have it! In Doug's pseudo reality there are only two races and they are based on two skin colors; white and black. Boy! I should have guessed! There are only two colors to human skin! Black and white! And those two are factors for determining race. I should have known! Damn! How did that slip the scientific world? This is ground breaking (LOL)!
You are the bomb!!!
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Then it stands to reason whites are whites in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
Dude don't you even see the kind of tricknowledgy game you are playing?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I thought blacks were blacks in terms of a reference to the color of the skin, regardless of the nation they are in.
WOW you are an absolute genius, stupid.
Like I said you are an absolute stupid genious with your dumb backwards pseudo logic.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
This is the original Black Modonna worship in Europe Isis as stated above..here you have Nile valley Priest..with their Roman counter parts giving homage to an African Goddess..they didn't hate they just appreaciate. Temple Of Isis Pompeii
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd like to respond to that question. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One doesn't make the other go away.
Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
You have the black madonna made of dark wood (not at all indicative of complexion). You have black madonnas, a result of soot and you have black madonnas with esoteric meaning to her dark skin in xten lore (these are the three kinds of Black Madonnas you find thurout europe). The latter was never meant to be interpreted literal as Afrocentrists suggest. After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd like to respond to that question. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One doesn't make the other go away.
Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair. [/QB]
This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black? Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.
This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black? [/QB]
posted
I didn't know of some of the statues/pictures Pretty interesting
It seems to me that it is said of many gods or religious/wise figures that they were/are black people of which only the first two are sometimes disputed
Madonna Jesus Krishna Mohammed Buddah Job Lokman Jetrho
If you include Madonna and Jesus to Mohammed and buddah just by looking at the statues, it would mean that somewhere in the vicinity of 58,6% of all religious people are following/praying to black people. If one includes the numerous religions of African/Carribean people, the percentage is higher of course.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: You are insane dude. There are literally THOUSANDS of typical European feature Modanna and child statues. How many Black Modannas do you think there are? Dont make me go toe to toe with you posting up images of Modanna and child. Trust me dude, I will post 10x more white Madonnas then you can post Black ones. Wake up Charlie! Black Modanna was not the norm representation in Europe! nor in Xtendom iconagraphy!
You've obviously not been in Europe. In Catholic Europe, Black Madonnas are very common. It's so common that it couldn't just be some "Afronut" (preschool jokes common amongst art and law students) design.
That's the point of the thread. It may not be referring to Black African, especially when Black Asians are numerous in the Middle East. The primary population in the Arabian peninsula, Southern Iraq and many parts of Southern Iran.
Saying that, it could refer to them. That would not be the prime point, though. Instead like those populations, it would be tied with black skinned populations within Africa, Australasia and Oceania as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.
This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black? [/QB]
He is African, just as the traits described could be referring to the Yemenite. The broader traits are found amongst Black Asians as well.
However, it wouldn't be European. That's because that small population developed are cold adapted and developed in North Asia. There is considerable evidence that Europeans saw immense influence from Black Africa an Asia.
It's impossible to deny and we obviously see it in the Black Madonnas. The statues are present within the Vatican jurisdiction, despite there being significant pressure to stigmatize black-skinned populations due to European colonization drives.
This has been pushed even during modern times and yet these statues remain in much of Catholic Europe. It does not matter if white counterparts exist, because that'd be assumed. However black skinned counterparts does suggest that ties to southern populations.
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posted
Guys the prototype of the Black Modonna's is to be found In Isis and Horus,an African/Nile valley based religion praticed in Europe for 100s of years before the rise of Christianity bearing the same titles and concepts see above. As a matter of facts it is said that Notre Dame cathedral is built on the site of an Isiac temple.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: You have the black madonna made of dark wood (not at all indicative of complexion). You have black madonnas, a result of soot and you have black madonnas with esoteric meaning to her dark skin in xten lore (these are the three kinds of Black Madonnas you find thurout europe). The latter was never meant to be interpreted literal as Afrocentrists suggest. After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Elucidate please, what does it entail? That's what I'm soliciting from you or anyone who'd like to respond to that question. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: Like I said, a "Black Madonna" does not entail African Black.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: One doesn't make the other go away.
Really, everyone knows there are white Madonnas in Europe as should be the case among white peoples. That they far outnumber the black ones is to be expected.
But what explains black Madonnas among white people and these Black Madonnas highly venerated and miracle working stature when the color black bear negative connotations to Europeans, connotations of all that is ugly, vile, and evil?
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: So when I post up xtian iconography of the "White" Madonna and child, then what OP?
You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree. However it isn't, and many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.
Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians. It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.
I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree. Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_01: You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree.
I never said it was solely based on the wood. There are Madonnas made of dark wood, there are Madonnas that are dark as a result of soot from burning candle, and there are Madonnas whose dark pigment expresses an esoteric meaning.
I also stated the dominant depiction of the Madonna and child throughout Europe is European Caucasian. Why is that one discounted in favor of the less reccuring motif?
quote: many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.
And many Europeans don't. So what is your point? The major view of Europeans is that the bible characters (Mary and Jesus) are not African Negro, sir. This is what Afrocentrists want to believe; the existence of a Black Madonna is proof that the Bible characters are African Negro.
quote: Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians.
You are not following along in the thread. That is exactly what I said. If anyone, dark asians (like Hindus) are in a better position to argue that the Black Madonnas resemble them.
What is disturbing is an African American/Afrocentrist trying to claim the Black Madonna because she is pigmented dark. I did not know Afro-Blacks are the only dark people on the earth.
quote: It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.
And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire? Did they miraculously disappear?
quote: I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree.
posted
Dark wood? OK, but leave face and hands darker than the clothes and wherefore the red on the lower lip?
Soot? Already covered that in an earlier post that quoted Higgins which I'll repost as a refresher
quote:When circumstances have been named to the Romish priests they have endeavored to disguise the fact by pretending that the child had become black by the smoke of the candles; but it was black where the smoke of the candle never came; and besides how came the candles not to blacken the white teeth and the shirt, and how came they to redden the lips?
Esoteric meaning? Of the 21 dictionary denotations for the color black, in European languages how many (other than "in the black" refering to finances) are positive. Again from post above
quote:... they developed the concept of a unique "Black Madonna" and sought a theological explanation to counter the then-popularly held negative association with blackness.
. . . .
... a woman made a pilgrimage to the sanctuary to give thanks for the miraculous healing of her daughter, and upon seeing the statue’s dark visage, she exclaimed, "I traveled so far to see someone uglier than me"
No one has ever argued that there are only Black Madonnas or that they outnumber white ones. What has been said is that long before the misbeguided concept of historical Afrocentricity white Europeans worshipped a Black Madonna and the fact that white Europeans have a Black Madonna in the face of negative denotations for blackness and claim the first such Black Madonna iconography came from the hands of the St Luke of the Xian Bible himself then it follows there was a strong current of belief that Yoshke and Mary, and thus the Judaeans, were of a black people.
Why is it disturbing when Black Americans bring up the Black Madonna? Are they not in fact regurgitating what White Europeans themselves have marveled over for centuries?
I think the underlying problem is not the Black Madonna but the Black American.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01: You're being quite selective. If the sources of information was solely predicated on dark wood-based objects, I'd agree.
I never said it was solely based on the wood. There are Madonnas made of dark wood, there are Madonnas that are dark as a result of soot from burning candle, and there are Madonnas whose dark pigment expresses an esoteric meaning.
I also stated the dominant depiction of the Madonna and child throughout Europe is European Caucasian. Why is that one discounted in favor of the less reccuring motif?
quote: many Europeans even acknowledge blackness of the two characters.
And many Europeans don't. So what is your point? The major view of Europeans is that the bible characters (Mary and Jesus) are not African Negro, sir. This is what Afrocentrists want to believe; the existence of a Black Madonna is proof that the Bible characters are African Negro.
quote: Saying that, those traits are widely present amongst Black Asians.
You are not following along in the thread. That is exactly what I said. If anyone, dark asians (like Hindus) are in a better position to argue that the Black Madonnas resemble them.
What is disturbing is an African American/Afrocentrist trying to claim the Black Madonna because she is pigmented dark. I did not know Afro-Blacks are the only dark people on the earth.
quote: It's quite obvious in much of the world. The individuals that could be referred to may be black-skinned indigenous populations that are still found within Turkey, in fact.
And what happened to the thousands of African Black slaves brought into turkey during the Ottoman empire? Did they miraculously disappear?
quote: I suggest showing at least some character and post akin tot the lead poster, alTakruri. He has accompanied his posts with sources. Most of what I'm saying has been reaffirmed already, but you, on the other hand, are making rather large claims. We need some literature, in other words, and I feel that alTakruri would agree.
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: let me guess, he is east African. Correct?
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Recovering Afrocentrist: After all, one can clearly see the characters have acquiline features as well as fine hair. If the intent of the artists was to portray African Blacks, they would have depicted the characters as such; broad and full facial features with coarse hair.
This guys an African yet no broad full facial features, so what does this mean? That he's not African black?
[/QB]
Errr wrong! He's actually from Rwanda which is more central Africa, so does this mean he's not African black with his features?
Btw anthropologists of the past thought this individuals ancestors migrated from east Africa and that they carried E1b1b (E3b), but as noted to they are predominately E1b1a (E3a). Now what does this tell us?
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Our Lady of Good Deliverance, Neuilly near Paris, 14th C. variation on 11th C. original
Romanesque Madonna of Chastreix, Puy-de-Dome, France Photo: Francis Debaisieux
Our Lady of Meymac, France, 12th century
Our Lady of Le Puy photo: Francis Debaisieux France, reproduction, because the original was burnt during the revolution, like witches on public execution pyres, to cries of: "Death to the Egyptian!"
Our Lady of the Good Death (Notre Dame de la Bonne Mort), 12th century, Clermont-Ferrand, France, discovered in 1972 in the mortuary chapel of a bishop.
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: The bass is a member of the Church of Christ and as such we are not concerned with pictorical depictions of Jesus and Mary
Oh my f!cking god! I knew there was something wrong with this Charlie guy! LOL!
quote:You have the black madonna made of dark wood (not at all indicative of complexion). You have black madonnas, a result of soot and you have black madonnas with esoteric meaning to her dark skin in xten lore (these are the three kinds of Black Madonnas you find thurout europe). The latter was never meant to be interpreted literal as Afrocentrists suggest.
LOL! You are so getting your ass kicked in this thread dude. Something you are quite use to on this board.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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The Black Madonna and the Destiny of The Polish Nation
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