From Explorer's/MysterySolver's blog....M1 as possible back migration refuted;
*First, a quick synopsis of the samplings, with regards to where the n=261 M1 bearing samples come from, aside from the 588 participants mentioned in one of the tables [table 2] in the study:
From my assessment of the table, it comes from the following numbers:
A total of 50 Europeans detected for M1. A total of 154 for Africans. A total of 28 Asians, barring 8 unknown Arabian haplotypes. And a total of 29 Jews, who were lumped together from the various continents. The sum of the above totals, amount to 261 "known" M1 lineages.
*With regards to the authors claim about M1 or its ancestor, having “had an Asiatic origin”, the following comes to mind:
The authors of the study at hand, themselves admit that they haven't come across M1 ancestor in either south Asia or southwest Asia. They also take note of its highest diversity in Ethiopia and east Africa. Yet through the shaky premise of their M1c expansion time frame estimations, they build a conclusion around it, by tying it to a dispersal(s) "parallel" to that of U6 - another African marker whose immediate common recent ancestor, namely proto-U6, appears to be elusive thus far.
Well, they wouldn’t be the only ones who have failed to come across any proto-M1 ancestor in southwest and south Asia [Indian Subcontinent mainly]:
Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. On the other hand, one also observes that: i) M1 is the only variant of haplogroup M found in Africa; ii) M1 has a fairly restricted phylogeography in Africa, barely penetrating into sub-Saharan populations, being found predominantly in association with the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum – a finding that appears to be inconsistent with the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. — Mait Metspalu et al.
So, while they acknowledge the highest "frequencies and diversities" of M1 particularly in Ethiopia, and generally in East Africa [see below for reference], the authors base their claims about ’origins’ on their expansion estimations of M1c derivatives, presumably predominant in northwest Africa rather than east Africa, and its relative sporadic distribution in 'Europe' and 'Southwest' Asia. They attempt to buttress this, by invoking an initial parallel expansion of M1 and U6 "ancestor" lineages into north Africa via the Nile Valley [from "southwest Asia"], then an expansion from northwest Africa this time around, of U6 and M1 derivatives northward into Europe and then eastward into "southwest" Asia via the Nile Valley corridor in the Sinai peninsula, presumably with a few derivatives making their way into sub-Saharan east Africa, where they then underwent some expansion, to give rise to yet another, but later, dispersal from there into "southwest Asia" and hence, accounting for the 'majority' of M1 lineages in "southwest Asia" being east African derivatives than the north African [M1c] counterparts.
In Africa, haplogroup M1 has supra-equatorial distribution (see additional files 1 and 2). As previously reported its highest frequencies and diversities (Table 2) are found in Ethiopia in particular and in East Africa in general. Two appreciable gradients exist. Frequencies significantly diminished from East to West and also going South to sub-Saharan areas. M1 is not uncommon in the Mediterranean basin showing a peak in the Iberian Peninsula. However, it is rare in continental Europe. Although in low frequencies, its presence in the Middle East has been well established from the South of the Arabian Peninsula to Anatolia and from the Levant to Iran. - Gonzalez et al. 2007
*Furthermore,
The authors gather that their observations correlate with that of other researchers, namely Olivieri et al. (2006). To this extent, they put forth that Olivieri et al.’s M1b corresponds to their M1c, the former’s M1a2 corresponds to their M1b, and the former’s M1a1 corresponds to their M1a. They go onto to add that the coalescence ages arrived by the two research group [that of Olivieri et al. and that of the present authors] also correlate. The present authors note that their coalescence time for M1c (25.7 +/- 6.6 ky) overlaps with Olivieri et al.’s coalescence time for M1b (23.4 +/- 5.6). Similarly, they note that their coalescence age for M1a (22.6 +/- 8.1ky) falls within that of Olivieri et al.’s age for M1a1 at 20.6 +/- 3.4ky. However, this makes way for great discrepancy between the said authors and Olivieri et al., whereby their coalescence age for M1b at 13.7 +/- 4.8ky falls quite short of the latter’s age for M1a2 at 24 +/- 5.7ky. Not only are the subgroup nomenclatures distinct, but this latter discrepancy makes an unsubtle difference, so as to no longer render M1c to be older than M1b [in examining from the ongoing juxtapositioning, utilizing Olivieri et al.'s standpoint], but rather, either place M1c (Olivieri et al.'s M1b) at an age a bit younger or on par with the latter, which should be otherwise according to the present study. Though, by their own admission, the present authors favor Olivieri et al.’s methods over their own:
As our calculations are based only on three lineages and that of Olivieri et al on six, we think that their coalescence time estimation should be more accurate than ours. In fact, when time estimation is based on the eight different lineages (AFR-K143 is common to both sets) a coalescence age of 20.6 +/- ky is obtained.
*But if there is any indication about the tenuous nature of the above thesis, without going into other known details about M1, it would be this alternative viewpoint they came up with:
The alternative idea entertained by the authors, is one where M1 could actually be an autochthonous northwest African lineage, which spread northward into Europe and eastward to "Southwest Asia" and east Africa. Again, to be followed by a yet later dispersal from east Africa, likely sub-Saharan east Africa, particularly the Ethiopian populations.
*We've already seen the subjective nature of the present authors' age estimations, naturally attributable to biases underlying sampling procedures to some degree or another, as demonstrated above with the juxtapositioning of the findings of the present authors to those of Olivieri et al. (2006). Furthermore, erratic mutation rates would have undoubtedly affected the age estimation regime applied by the authors, however they may have downplayed the fact, as demonstrated by their observations surrounding the M1a2 subgroup, leading them to omit said subgroup in their lineage coalescence analysis. What makes this interesting, is that both group of authors sought to build their argument around parallel demic diffusion scenarios of U6 and M1, which has little in way of supporting material to stand on, notwithstanding the passionate efforts to push forward with argument; for instance in Olivieri et al.'s case, they say:
The hypothesis of a back-migration from Asia to Africa is also strongly supported by the current phylogeography of the Y chromosome variation, because haplogroup K2 and paragroup R1b*, both belonging to the otherwise Asiatic macrohaplogroup K, have been observed at high frequencies only in Africa (15, 16). However, because of the relatively low molecular resolution of the Y chromosome phylogeny as compared to that of the mtDNA, it was impossible to come to a firm conclusion about the precise timing of this dispersal (15, 16). - Olivieri et al. (2006)
One can almost sense Olivieri et al.'s venting their frustrations from not getting the "desired" results out on the supposed "relatively low molecular resolution of Y DNA", but indeed, as noted here earlier:
Previous genetic research work made very enthusiastic attempts to correlate the likes of U6 and possible "Eurasian"-tagged mtDNA with R1*-M173, supposedly as an attempt to buttress a possible back-migration into Africa; all but failed, with results showing considerable African mtDNA gene pool instead, for populations bearing these chromosomes.
Gonzalez et al. (2008) also fall into that trap; guess where they look towards, to make a connection between an M1 dispersal [supposedly parallel to a U6 one] and a "Middle Eastern" origin part of their argument? Interestingly, it happens to be from the same Dead Sea sample which was implicated in a clear genetic link with sub-Saharan and Eastern African groups. This is the same Dead Sea sample set that shared R1*-M173 with northern Cameroonian sample set, other African groups with these markers. This is also the same Dead Sea sample set with African G6PD-A alleles that were rare to absent in neighbouring groups. And Gonzalez et al. (2008) tell us, that this is also the same sample set which is again distinguished from those of neighbouring group in its higher "south of the Sahara" mtDNA markers:
Statistical analysis revealed that, whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbours, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its outstanding Eurasian haplogroup U3 frequency (39%) and its south-Saharan Africa lineages (19%) are the highest in the Middle East. On the contrary, the lack ((preHV)1) or comparatively low frequency (J and T) of Neolithic lineages is also striking. Although strong drift by geographic isolation could explain the anomalous mtDNA pool of the Dead Sea sample, the fact that its mtDNA lineage composition mirrors, in geographic origin and haplogroup frequencies, its Y-chromosome pool, points to founder effect as the main cause. - Gonzalez et al. (2008)
They acknowledge above that the "anamolous" character of the Dead Sea sample's Y-DNA pool "mirrors" its mtDNA gene pool, which too is replete with markers mostly found in Africa, including the aforementioned rare paraphyletic R1*-M173. However, something interesting happens, with regards to this Dead Sea sample of an "isolated" group:
Ancestral M1 lineages detected in Jordan that have affinities with those recently found in Northwest but not East Africa question the African origin of the M1 haplogroup.
Interesting, because these the same M1c chromosomes being referred to here, and whose specifics have been dealt with. Despite the apparent post-OOA emigration ties between the African groups and the Dead Sea community, reflected in not only both Y-DNA and mtDNA, but also in the X chrosome markers, Gonzalez et al. (2008) still come to the odd conclusion that its presence in the Dead Sea sample set somehow offers some sort of a challenge on the African origin of M1. The notion itself becomes quite comical, when one considers the fact that they just mentioned in the same breath, the presence of these same M1 clusters in Northwestern Africa, which happened to be their alternative hypothetical point of origin [Gonzalez et al. (2007)], as already noted. As they themselves acknowledge, that's where (northwestern Africa) said M1 clusters are widely distributed, and rather rare in the so-called "Middle East", save for this genetically "anamolous" [the authors' own words] and relatively isolated Dead Sea community, notable for its clear "past ties to sub-Saharan and eastern Africa", to put in Flores et al.'s (2005) words, a team that Gonzalez herself was a part of. "Anamolous", because to put it in the authors' own words, the considerably high post-OOA African ties of the Dead Sea sample dataset sets it appart from many other "Middle Eastern" groups, including its neighbours. So, how M1c clusters (which Gonzalez et al. (2007) dub "ancestral" based on their subjective age estimations) — that are very rare even in the "Middle East" (save for the 'anamolous' Dead Sea dataset) in contrast to their wide distribution in northwestern Africa — suddenly puts a question mark on the African origin of M1, is beyond comprehension.
Not only is there lack of apparent parallelism between R1* paragroup distribution and those aforemention markers of U6 and "Eurasian"-tagged mtDNA markers in Africa itself, as the authors (like Olivieri et al. & Gonzalez et al.) seem to be so desperately yearning for, but also the paragroup is essentially absent in all Afrasan speaking groups but those in the Northeast African corner. The marker is even rarer in so-called Southwest Asia than it is in Africa. This naturally contradicts Olivieri et al.'s acknowledgement in the following...
Indeed, M1 and U6 in Africa are mostly restricted to Afro-Asiatic–speaking areas.
Where did this "Afro-Asiatic" phylum originate? Well, look no further than to Gonzalez et al., whom as we've seen, are energetic about this idea of M1 and U6 "parallelism", not unlike Olivieri et al. (2006); they too, clearly in a way that simulteneously soothens or seeks to explain away a bit of disappoint in the course of the study, say:
The anomalous evolution of M1a2 lineages left the coalescence ages of the eastern Africa M1a expansion uncertain, but as suggested for the sister U6a1 radiation; these movements could be correlated in time with an African origin and expansion of Afroasiatic languages.
There you have it, folks, the answer to that simple question. And as if to defy the two groups of aforementioned research teams above, with regards to the proposed M1 and U6 "parallelism" in a demic expansion scenario, a newer study that came along in December 2008, points this out [a finding that appears to have been reproduced in several other studies]:
Our results highlighted a clear genetic differentiation between Berbers from the Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers. The first seems to be more related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4∗, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. Probably, such a maternal diversity between North African Berbers would have been the result of a conjunction of several geographical, prehistoric, and historic factors which guided contacts (and thus exchanges) between local populations and migrating groups. First, in addition to the geographical distance, which certainly increases the genetic distance, the geographical location of Berber populations is very peculiar: the Berbers from the Maghreb are at the end of a long migration route, whereas Berbers from Siwa are rather in a crossroads between the Middle East, East Africa, sub-Saharan areas and the North African corridor. Therefore, meetings and exchanges between local and migrating populations were not identical in North West and North East Africa. - C. Coudray et al., The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
We are told above, that M1 is substantial in the Siwa group, but no U6 was observed! Furthermore, it would make sense for the Siwa group to be a pristine representative of the aforementioned U6/M1 "parallelism" scenario, given that they are even closer to the so-called "Near East" than the northwestern African "Berbers", would it not? Perhaps it wouldn't be as funny, if Anna Olivieri herself was not a participant of this Coudray et al. study! Speaking of the so-called "Near East", the following claim is interesting, when one takes into account that this area was singled out as one of Gonzalez et al.'s proposed areas of M1 origin, because while looking at it from the alternative proposed origin, presumably the northwestern African one, we are told in a passing that...
That M1 is an autochthonous North African clade that had its earliest spread in northwestern areas marginally reaching the Near East and beyond. This would explain the shortage of basic M1 lineages in the Near East but would leave the Asiatic origin of the M1 ancestor undetermined.
...interesting.
*Another thing that hasn't been relayed through the present study, are details that follow:
The coding regions transitions are likely to change relatively slower than those of hypervariable segments, and hence, likely to remain intact within a clade. To assist in determining which clade to place a monophyletic unit, key coding region transitions have to be identified. In the case of M1, we were told:
We found 489C (Table 3) in all Indian and eastern-African haplogroup M mtDNAs analysed, but not in the non-M haplogroup controls, including 20 Africans representing all African main lineages (6 L1, 4 L2, 10 L3) and 11 Asians.
These findings, and the lack of positive evidence (given the RFLP status) that the 10400 C->T transition defining M has happened more than once, suggest that it has a single common origin, but do not resolve its geographic origin. Analysis of position 10873 (the MnlI RFLP) revealed that all the M molecules (eastern African, Asian and those sporadically found in our population surveys) were 10873C (Table 3). As for the non-M mtDNAs, the ancient L1 and the L2 African-specific lineages5, as well as most L3 African mtDNAs, also carry 10873C.
Conversely, all non-M mtDNAs of non-African origin analysed so far carry 10873T. These data indicate that the **transition 10400 C-->T, which defines haplogroup M**, arose on an African background characterized by the ancestral state 10873C, which is also present in four primate (common and pygmy chimps, gorilla and orangutan) mtDNA sequences. — Semino et al.
...which is significant, as other M lineages are devoid of M1 coding region motifs, not to mention the M1 HVS-I package. The above does demonstrate, how M lineages likely arose on an African 'background' by single-event substitutions in the designated African ancestral counterparts. The ancestral transition of 10873C is substituted by 10873T in non-African non-M haplogroups, while the 10400C transition was substituted in M lineages by 10400T; that ancestral state of 10873C remains at large in the M macrohaplogroup, unlike the so-called non-African & non-M haplogroup counterparts.
Furthermore,...
The 489C transition, as noted above and can be seen from the diagram, is peculiar to the M macrohaplogroup, again suggestive of unique event mutations characterizing the family:
The phylogenetic location of the mutations at nt 489 and 10,873 (arrow) was predicted by our analysis. The seemingly shared mutation at nt 16,129 (by G, Z and M1) is very likely an accidental parallelism. The ancestral states 10400C, 10810C and 10873C are fixed in L1 (as analysed so far) and are present in the ape sequences.
The 16129 sharing across the M1 haplogroups, seems to be one of those instances of random parallel mutation, recalling Chang Sun et al.'s observations of random parallel mutations of certain transitions across the M macrohaplogroup.
We also know that "southwest Asian" and "European" M1 lineages are derivatives of African counterparts, and the same is true for southwest Asian non-M1 affiliated M lineages from south Asia:
Compared to India, haplogroup M frequency in Iran is marginally low (5.3%) and there are no distinguished Iranian-specific sub-clades of haplogroup M. All Iranian haplogroup M lineages can be seen as derived from other regional variants of the haplogroup: eleven show affiliation to haplogroup M lineages found in India, twelve in East and Central Asia (D, G, and M8 ) and one in northeast Africa (M1)…
Indian-specific (R5 and Indian-specific M and U2 variants) and East Asian-specific (A, B and East Asian-specific M subgroups) mtDNAs, both, make up less than 4% of the Iranian mtDNA pool. We used Turkey (88.8 ± 4.0%) as the third parental population for evaluating the relative proportions of admixture from India (2.2 ± 1.7%) and China (9.1 ± 4.1%) into Iran. Therefore we can conclude that historic gene flow from India to Iran has been very limited. — Mait Metspalu et al.
With that said, Semino et al.'s older study still remains strong, the way I see it:
haplogroup M originated in eastern Africa approximately 60,000 years ago and was carried toward Asia. This agrees with the proposed date of an out-of-Africa expansion approximately 65,000 years ago10. After its arrival in Asia, the haplogroup M founder group went through a demographic and geographic expansion. The remaining M haplogroup in eastern Africa did not spread, but remained localized up to approximately 10,000-20,000 years ago, after which it started to expand. — Semino et al.
Elsewhere, I've also talked about some 'basal' M-like lineages in Africa; for instance, at least one of such was identified in the Senegalese sample.
Am. J. Hum. Genet., 66:1362-1383, 2000
mtDNA Variation in the South African Kung and Khwe and Their Genetic Relationships to Other African Populations
"The Asian mtDNA phylogeny is subdivided into two macrohaplogroups, one of which is M. M is delineated by a DdeI site at np 10394 and an AluI site of np 10397. The only African mtDNA found to have both of these sites is the Senegalese haplotype AF24. This haplotype branches off African subhaplogroup L3a (figs.2 and3), suggesting that haplogroup M mtDNAs might have been derived from this African mtDNA lineage..."
The relevant representation in this recap diagram: - Image source: Link
^The 10397 transition is shown in the L3-M linkage, while 10394, which should show up as positive (as exemplified in the above extract) in the M macrohaplogroup, shows up negative in the linkage between L3 and non-M affiliated lineages.
What does all this talk of specific transitions or nucleotide sequences tell us?
Well, to put the above compilation into perspective, and keep it simple, the point is this:
Semino et al.'s demonstration of certain characteristic basic coding transitions of the M super-haplogroup [not including the key coding region motifs unique to the M1 family], springing directly from African ancestral motifs don't require that M1 has to have a proto "non-African" M1, because all the necessary basic nucleotide sequences have been identified in the autochthonous African gene pool [findings which have been buttressed by later studies, of basic motifs in rare "M-characteristic" basic (African L3) clades], enough to explain the proposed African origin for the M lineage in general, including M1; whereas an Asian origin of M1 would necessitate an Asian "proto-M1" lineage that would explain the relatively young expansion ages of M1 and lack of descendancy from pre-existing Asian M lineages. This hasn't been achieved either by the present study or ones prior to it.
Getting to the gist:
Basal M mtDNA ~ between c. 60 - 80 ky ago
And then, M1 ~ between ~ c. 10 - 30 ky ago
The studies I posted, suggest that the basal motifs characteristic of the M macrohaplogroup arose in Africa, anywhere between 60 - 80 ky ago [since they would have likely been in the continent by the time of the 60 ky ago or so OOA migrations] . Sometime between 60 ky and 50 ky ago [some sources place it between 75 - 60 ky ago], these L3 offshoots were carried outside of Africa, amongst early successful a.m.h migrations, which resulted in the populations now living in the Indian-subcontinent, Melanesia and Australia who have these lineages. Not all the basal African L3M lineages, as Semino et al. convincingly put it, left the continent, as indicated by the basal L3a-M motif detected in Senegal, M1 diversity in Africa, particularly East Africa, possibly the dectection of M1 and other M lineages in tandem within a Tanzanian sample (Gonder et al. 2006), and the apparent lack of descendancy of M1 from older-coalescent Asian macrohaplogroup. Rather, it appears that the basal L3M lineages which remained in Africa, underwent a relatively limited demographic intra-African expansion until relatively recently, i.e. between 10 - 30 ky ago, compared to the Asian L3M derivatives, which underwent major expansions, naturally within the quantitatively smaller founder immigrant groups, i.e. the founder effect.
M1 is likely the culmination of relatively more recent demographic expansions of basal L3M lineages in the African continent, with M1 derivative being a successful candidate, in what could have possibly involved other derivatives which might not have expanded to the same level intra-continentally, and subsequently, extra-continentally as well.
M1 has strongly been correlated with the upper Paleolithic expansion of proto-Afrasan groups across the Sahara to coastal north Africa, and further eastward via the Sinai peninsula.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
R1* is found mostly in Central Africa, NorthEast Africa and to a lesser to degree, the Levantine.
There is no R1* in northern Europe. Europeans have only later derived R1b and R1a... not R1*. There is no R1a or R1b in Africa hence there is no Eurasian admixture!
"...M173 chromosomes (group R) are observed in the Bantu of southern Cameroon (14.3%), Oman (10.7%), Egypt (6.8%), and the Hutu (1.4%). Whereas the R1*-M173 undifferentiated lineage is present in all four populations, the two downstream mutations, M17 and M269, are confined to Egypt and Oman."
Note the following!
quote:Originally posted by Explorateur: Two possibilities to deduce from R1*-M173 distribution pattern...
Possibility #1
— Originated in central Sahara or northeast Africa amongst a nomadic lifestyle oriented group and spread thereof to the Levant through the Sinai corridor, during the Upper Paleolithic.
— The remnants in Africa trekked down to Cameroonian region and the lower vestiges of West Africa as a place of refuge, with the coming of the Ogolian aridity [ca. between 23 ky ago and 18ky ago]. Sometime between 19ky ago and 15ky ago, some E-M35 bearing nomads would move into the Levant via northeast Africa, perhaps due to growing pressures of progressive Saharan aridity. This may explain R1*-M173 carriers in tandem with E-M34 carriers in places like the Dead Sea, whereas R1*-M173 is absent in sub-Saharan East Africa [but not in northeastern Africa] - the African Horn region - where E-M34 chromosomes are prevalent. It may also explain why the Dead Sea R1*-M173 bearing population also happens to standout from their high-frequency J1 carrying Levantine Bedouin brethren in sporting high prevalence of the African-specific G6PD-A locus on the X chromosome. The presence of both E-M34 and E-M78 derivatives in the so-called Near East make it clear that E-M35 chromosomes did not spill outside of the continent in single demographic event or even time frame. On the other hand, E-M34 is absent in West and Central Africa where R1*-M173 chromosomes are most prevalent.
— Upon finding a refuge to escape intense aridified condition of the Sahara, sections [meaning not all] of the previously largely nomadic R1*-M173 carriers began to settle in their new found refugia. The small communities of R1*-M173 would eventually expand, but they would have been overwhelmed by the faster expanding newly arrived PN2 carriers, especially with the receding of the Ogolian aridity. Those who retained their nomadic lifestyle, trekked back and forth the western[mainly] Sahel and the lower geographical vestiges of West Africa, where some of the settled brethren located themselves. These nomad traditionalists would adopt a pastoralist lifestyle [see: the theme centered on the *divergent* C-13.9kbT allele patterns in R1*-M173 carriers], which would modify their diet.
Sticking point(s) for possibility #1:
The only or main one so-offered for this possibility from those publications which propose otherwise, is the relative greater diversity of the overall K-M9 family outside of Africa, as opposed to that located within continent, even though the presence of Hg K itself [particularly in East Africa] in the continent have been noted; however, even if one were to look at it from that angle, it doesn't necessarily negate a possible African origin for R1*-M173, as its supposed predecessor P-M45 — in particular the elusive undifferentiated P-M45 — is just as rare in Asia.
Possibility #2
- Originated in the Sinai or the Levantine or northern regions of the Arabian desert, amongst a very small community nomads of that region. Those that trekked between North Africa and the so-called Near East through the Sinai corridor, when give rise to a subset that decided to stay put in North Africa and lead their nomadic lifestyle there. Others went even further north; they went as far as Europe, wherein they'd become ancestors of R1b bearers. While the demograhic shifts brought upon later by greater expanding groups, like say Hg J carriers, probably urged some remnants of R1*-M173 to spread eastward, central Asia, wherein they'd give rise to R1a carriers, sometime after the LGM. The small group of R1*-M173 bearers who moved into Europe would likely have met relatively modest competition, due to smaller isolated groups in the region, as compared to elsewhere in Asia and in Africa.
- With the coming of the LGM, the R1 carriers in Europe would find refugia in southwestern Europe and certain regions in the so-called Near East. This would have coincided with the aridification of the Sahara, wherein R1* bearers there, as I have noted above, would have migrated southward, out of the region of the intense aridification of the Sahara. However, when the LGM came to a conclusion, the R1 carriers in Europe, who sought refuge in southern Europe and parts of the so-called Near East, would start repopulating the more northerly regions of Europe, and the subsequent expansion, especially with the advent of farming from the so-called Near East, out of which R1b would overwhelm any remaining original R1b-predecessor R1* group. In otherwords, negative genetic drift essentially drifted out the original R1 carriers. Although R1b itself seems to have come to being before the LGM, its numbers likely became much greater after the LGM. As noted above, small group of R1 carriers who populated Europe, were likely fortunate enough to have not met the same competition from non-R1 bearing groups, as they might have been exposed to in Africa and the so-called Near East.
Sticking point(s) for possibility #2:
Naturally with possibility #2, one would have to explain away why the only one of the two places outside of Africa where the rare unidifferentiated R1*-M173 marker is present, and where it has been the most substantial [after Africa], that this marker appears to be in a population that stands out in its low Hg J [ 9% J1 in the Dead Sea compared with 63% J1 (Semino et al. 2004) of their Bedouin neighbors , per reference by Flores et al. 2005], while it bears 31% E-M34 compared to the only 7% of Bedouin (Cruciani et al. 2004)[See: Flores et al.2005], and last but not least — it has a lower number of different G6PD locus variants and a higher incidence of the African G6PD-A allele (Karadsheh, personal communication) than the Bedouin, when the molecular heterogeneity of the G6PD locus was compared between the Amman and the Dead Sea samples [Flores et al. 2005]. And even Oman, wherein R1*-M173 markers had been located in low frequency, cannot be ruled out as a recipient of these chromosomes through gene flow from Africa, because it isn't too far from northeast Africa, wherein these R1* chromosomes appear, not to mention the fact that other African ancestry therein [like variant E-M35 lineages and E3a chromosomes] make it clear that Oman has definitely been a recipient of genetic introgression from Africa via multiple and distinct demographic events.
Neutrals...
In either cases of possibility #1 and possibility #2, downstream R1 derivatives are relatively less to absent in the regions that harbor R1* undifferentiated chromosomes. Yet, the regions that do have the downstream R1 chromosomes, R1* undifferentiated chromosomes are virtually absent. This is simply testament to the possibility that in regions wherein the original R1 carriers [who were likely small to begin with, in terms of effective population size] appear to have expanded the most, the original R1* chromosomes were eventually drifted out by the more downstream R1 carriers.
One thing both possibility #1 and possibility #2 converge on, is this: R1*-M173 in Cameroon are very ancient, and did not come from populations characterizing downstream mutations, like say Europe.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
MindoverMatter718
Thanks for this.
Hopefully Dirk reads this and find his answer about M1.
Dirk needs to understand that he can't refute African genes in Egypt by claiming that all Africans with Fine Features and wavy hair is because of Eurasian Genes. It is just foolish thinking.
Peace
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Unfortunately King, the problem is Dirk and others like him are IDIOTS. No matter how much evidence you throw to their faces, they will keep denying it as they do reality itself! Racism is a mental disorder, and Dirk and his ilk are just deranged individuals.
Getting back to the topic...
in regards to maternal lineages like M1 and U6, it reminds me of the 2004 study from Metspalu and Kivisild et. ales: Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans (from AFRICA)-- the rest of the title should say. The study further says the M clade of Eurasia and its phylogeny are largely confined to the Indian subcontinent and adjacent areas. As such, how could the M1 of Africa be Eurasian when there is not only is that particular haplogroup not found in any significant frequencies in Asia, but there is no pattern to connect the M1 of East Africa to other M groups in India let alone the rest of Eurasia??
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Here's my take in a nutshell, in keeping with changing and emerging revelations in published journals: Of the mentioned clades, M1, U6 and E are unequivocally African in origin. As I noted elsewhere (click here), perhaps the jury is still out on R1*, BUT there is a VERY strong case for an African origin of this clade, and it is one of the two most probable geographic considerations for this origin. This is accessed not only from R1* distribution pattern in the continent, but also from closer examination of the rather unique Hg R family of clades that pervades the continent; if there is any evidence of this, then look no further than to the contradicting reports between Berniell-Lee et al.'s (2009) paper and those of Hassan et al.(2008) and Woods et al. (2005). The reports from the latter two confirm that R1* paragroup finds in earlier journals from the likes of Cruciani et al. (2002) were in fact not a matter of the retrospective state of development of sequencing resolution. This is necessary to note, because cases have been made about the need for not reading too much into the earlier R1* reports of Cruciani et al. (2002), or say Luis et al. (2004), on the premise that these involved insufficient sequencing resolution. Out of comparing these journals, and QUITE importantly, being mindful of their respective sequencing resolution pros and cons, the emerging picture of the African Hg R family of clades is one of a varied and a unique co-existence of paraphyletic clades that has thus far not been seen anywhere else. Where Africa falls short in relative diversity as it pertains to downstream Hg R clades, parts of Asia [including Europe] appears to make up for that. Between the so-called "Near East" and Africa, preponderance of DNA-evidence goes to the latter—i.e. African origin. A case for the so-called "Near East" on the other hand, so says the leading proponents thereof—is trumped by finds in southern Asia, the Indian sub-continent in particular, where diversity of the most upstream examples of Hg R clades are concerned. The so-called "Near East" clearly lacks this feature; this issue however, doesn't crop up when it comes to Africa. The only reservations its dissidents continue to hold against the African origin, boils down to the diversity of the downstream clades, if not reduced to merely wondering how Africa could be a reservoir to unique upstream paraphyletic clades, presumably of "all places".
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
As for this, MindoverMatter718,
There is no R1a or R1b in Africa hence there is no Eurasian admixture!
I wouldn't say there is no R1b in Africa, but it is rather rare, in so far as the European examples are concerned. One would expect it to be considerably represented on coastal northern African areas, given the proximity, but that doesn't bear out in study after study. There are low frequencies of the R1b in northeastern Africa, and randomly scattered across parts of the Sahara and Sahel, but interestingly, drops fairly sharply in the coastal northwestern Africa areas to almost negligible frequencies, where maternal markers closer to the European examples appear most prevalently. In fact, if the aforementioned Berniell-Lee et al. are anything to go by, Africa [by way of central African samples] seems to be unique with its upstream R1b1 family of paraphyletic clades. What about R1a? From what I can tell at this point, it is even rarer on the continent than R1b. I am sure there are Indian communities in Africa where R1a dominates, but African ethnic groups themselves, not much revelation here -- when it comes to R1a.
Ps - Look in here. R1b has been founded in a number of Sudanese communities, generally in low frequencies, but one interesting standout from the bunch, is the elevated frequency amongst the Hausa sample. Though considerably lower than that of the Hausa (~ 41%), the Meseria appears to be next in line in exhibiting noticeable frequencies of the marker (~25%).
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
^^&If you had to boil in down to a nutshell, what are typical DNA patterns found in:
-- Europe:
-- Middle East: Iran/Turkey/Arab lands
It seems that everyone and his brother has a "true negro" marker for Africans. But let's play this even, steven, for a moment. If you or others were running the model in reverse, what would be the stereotypical "true" markers for:
--Europeans
--Middle Easterners
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
The Y-DNA markers considered "typical" of the whole of Europe are downstream clades of Hg R [Rlb in the western part of the European subcontinent and R1a in the more eastern areas] and Hg I. Hgs E and J, and perhaps G, generally serving as "supplementary" clades as opposed "primary" types, are more prevalent in areas nearer to Africa and the so-called "Near East".
In the so-called "Near East", it is more varied. Markers generally considered "typical" of the region, are Hgs J, G, and T. This is supplemented by Hgs E and R [R1a starts to elevate in the vicinity of Iran].
Ps - Goes without saying, "stereotyping" these markers says little about their actual origins; actual examination of circumstances revolving around molecular, frequency and distribution patterns is more substantive in that regard.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: As for this, MindoverMatter718,
There is no R1a or R1b in Africa hence there is no Eurasian admixture!
Pardon, meant to say little to none....
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
No harm done. Refresher in the midst of the bunch of topics that dominates this section.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Racism depends on lies and deception in order to maintain itself. Therefore racist posters will follow a pattern of lies and deception in order to push their own agenda.
They aren't confused. And they aren't trying to LEARN anything from anyone.
F*ck them.
Dealing with racists is not about 'high minded' philosophy.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No harm done. Refresher in the midst of the bunch of topics that dominates this section.
Indeed refreshers in the midst of all the nonsense here are warranted...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Racism depends on lies and deception in order to maintain itself. Therefore racist posters will follow a pattern of lies and deception in order to push their own agenda.
They aren't confused. And they aren't trying to LEARN anything from anyone.
F*ck them.
Dealing with racists is not about 'high minded' philosophy.
Indeed. I don't know which are worse-- the openly overt racists like 'Afronut-slayer', 'Rushton', and Dirty8 a.k.a. Abozo of many aliases, OR the covert in the closet (sexual as well) racists like Bogledassopen and his boyfriend Argay from Europe??
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Racism depends on lies and deception in order to maintain itself. Therefore racist posters will follow a pattern of lies and deception in order to push their own agenda.
They aren't confused. And they aren't trying to LEARN anything from anyone.
F*ck them.
Dealing with racists is not about 'high minded' philosophy.
Then i guess we could rule out you being a "high minded" philosopher considering your atleast half a decade whining and naging about those evil racists who have occupied your mind most of your time while awake. You've made it clear ages ago that your mission in life is not to belittle and oppress racists but rather whine, complain and empower them by giving them almost divine like responsibility on all events that take place across the globe. Very flattering for a racist.
All problems are the evil mighty racists fault, eh Doug?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Historical fact makes it clear that the growth and expansion of white European civilization world wide depends on and is predicated upon the destruction of non white peoples and cultures. From America to Australia to Africa and everywhere else Europeans have spread, this is an observable fact. Therefore, their nationalism is implicitly built on destroying other people. For those "other people" not to understand this or to believe that they are "part of the klan" is the ultimate distortion of logic and common sense.
SOME people believe that this is all about philosophical debate and argument, when it isn't. It is about the hard core gritty day to day reality of power and control and nothing else. And those currently IN POWER did not get there by philosophy, they got there through brute force, murder, deception and oppression and that is how they STAY there.
So unless you are an absolute imbecile and don't mind dying off and sacrificing yourself to the rise of someone ELSE, you will have to stand up for your OWN identity, your OWN future, past and present. NOBODY else will do it for you.
There is no reason in this day and age for any African or non European in this day and age to be confused about who they are or what they SHOULD be about.
However, Europeans have also created a mystique and mystery about themselves and the "death cult" against Africans that they worship, creating FOOLS who blindly accept the ruse of propaganda that the system produces. Those people are lost and cannot see the light even if it was directly in their face. For them, their is no truth other than their own insane delusions and no facts other than their own lies. They participate in the bloody dismemberment of the African body politic blind to the orgy of violence being practiced against their OWN, which is ultimately to their own detriment. But such FOOLS wallow in the folly of their own ignorance and stay blind to that truth and try to woo others into their fold.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Is there a "bibliography" so to speak of the peer reviewed reports on M1, R1*, E, and U6 and the discussion here at ES that propose their African lineage?
I mean which threads go into depth on each and a list of the reports in those threads.
Thanks.
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Historical fact makes it clear that the growth and expansion of white European civilization world wide depends on and is predicated upon the destruction of non white peoples and cultures. From America to Australia to Africa and everywhere else Europeans have spread, this is an observable fact. Therefore, their nationalism is implicitly built on destroying other people. For those "other people" not to understand this or to believe that they are "part of the klan" is the ultimate distortion of logic and common sense.
SOME people believe that this is all about philosophical debate and argument, when it isn't. It is about the hard core gritty day to day reality of power and control and nothing else. And those currently IN POWER did not get there by philosophy, they got there through brute force, murder, deception and oppression and that is how they STAY there.
So unless you are an absolute imbecile and don't mind dying off and sacrificing yourself to the rise of someone ELSE, you will have to stand up for your OWN identity, your OWN future, past and present. NOBODY else will do it for you.
There is no reason in this day and age for any African or non European in this day and age to be confused about who they are or what they SHOULD be about.
However, Europeans have also created a mystique and mystery about themselves and the "death cult" against Africans that they worship, creating FOOLS who blindly accept the ruse of propaganda that the system produces. Those people are lost and cannot see the light even if it was directly in their face. For them, their is no truth other than their own insane delusions and no facts other than their own lies. They participate in the bloody dismemberment of the African body politic blind to the orgy of violence being practiced against their OWN, which is ultimately to their own detriment. But such FOOLS wallow in the folly of their own ignorance and stay blind to that truth and try to woo others into their fold.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
shut the **** up and go back in the soup line you somalid refugee. lol
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Doug M says, ''They aren't confused. And they aren't trying to LEARN anything from anyone.
F*ck them.
Dealing with racists is not about 'high minded' philosophy.''
Now do you understand that Djehuti?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Doug M: SOME people believe that this is all about philosophical debate and argument, when it isn't. It is about the hard core gritty day to day reality of power and control and nothing else.
The fact is most people are ethnocentric and tend to be prejudice against groups that are percieved as being distinct, be it difference in cultural practices, mentality, physical makeup, diety etc. It's not an exclusive European behaviour, and don't even attempt to act that you yourself don't utilize your capacity when an opportunity emerges for personal elevation. Suspicion against out-groups and exercise of brutality is probably the most primitive survival mechanism on all humans. Has been natural since time immemorial. Hope you are not seriously insinuating that no other group of people other than your whity's have taken advantage of opportunity gaps to advance themselves as a group at others disadvantage? Or Perhaps you think that your "Whiteys" are such superior beings that special rules of engagement should be applied on them?
quote:And those currently IN POWER did not get there by philosophy, they got there through brute force, murder, deception and oppression and that is how they STAY there.
Is that wrong? Should they perhaps have passed over the position of "POWER" for the sake of those others and maybe hoped and prayed they would be treated equally when similar situation unfolds for the other groups? I think you have a childish and unrealistic faith on human kindness.
You hypocracy also shows when you yourself have obviously programmed your mind into thinking of groups as polarised, natural competing entities who you've long time ago categorised, identified and also stated your mission against your enemies, granted positioning yourself as a victim/underdog and your golden strategy ofcourse being whining and pleading for morality that will secure you victory.
quote:So unless you are an absolute imbecile and don't mind dying off and sacrificing yourself to the rise of someone ELSE, you will have to stand up for your OWN identity, your OWN future, past and present. NOBODY else will do it for you.
LOL Yep, and i guess strongly empowering your adversaries by completly ascribing them all responsibilities is the ultimate way to stand up for yourself. I think the fool is the person who thinks by complaining he/she will convince someone to degrade his/her position. You're such a fierce and painfull enemy Doug, may no one ever experience the horror and destruction of colliding with you and crossing your path.
quote:However, Europeans have also created a mystique and mystery about themselves and the "death cult" against Africans that they worship, creating FOOLS who blindly accept the ruse of propaganda that the system produces.
A mystique that apparently has been succesfull in penetrating you concious and stolen a great chunk of the best years of your life by forcing you to obsessivley fight these demons and yet you are by the looks of it far from recovery.
quote:Those people are lost and cannot see the light even if it was directly in their face. For them, their is no truth other than their own insane delusions and no facts other than their own lies. They participate in the bloody dismemberment of the African body politic blind to the orgy of violence being practiced against their OWN, which is ultimately to their own detriment. But such FOOLS wallow in the folly of their own ignorance and stay blind to that truth and try to woo others into their fold.
I beleive most sensibel Africans know that all domestic problems are self-inflicted regardless of the amount of meddling and foreign interests being involved. No matter how much conspirancy crafted by others it's ultimatley the local leaders (be they puppets or nationalists) and the people who are to blame for allowing it to happen at the first place.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
shut the **** up and go back in the soup line you somalid refugee. lol
I'm born in the west just like your schizo Afro bookshop cleric ass, i guess the only difference between us two is that my parents had a choice unlike your ancestors.
None of us are refugees though, nothing wrong with being one!
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
dp
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman: Doug M says, ''They aren't confused. And they aren't trying to LEARN anything from anyone.
F*ck them.
Dealing with racists is not about 'high minded' philosophy.''
Now do you understand that Djehuti?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogledass: shut the **** up and go back in the soup line you somalid refugee. lol
Better a soup line than a c**k-sucking line in a bathroom stall, eh you white euro sleeze. LOL Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Is there a "bibliography" so to speak of the peer reviewed reports on M1, R1*, E, and U6 and the discussion here at ES that propose their African lineage?
I mean which threads go into depth on each and a list of the reports in those threads.
Thanks.
The intro threads are earlier notes that I've made elsewhere, based on material gathered from published journals. All the necessary sources are cited within the body of these notes, for those who have bothered to carefully read them. I am of course open to revisiting those areas where I may have gone wrong, ONCE they have been specifically identified and explained thereof by the dissenting party, about how they fail to meet the proposed conclusions, along with the set of counter evidential material that rectify the errors in question.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You need to stop searching for enemies and spoiling for a fight.
I asked for a one stop reference guide for postings to these forums dealing with the subject lineages. That's all.
There's a lot of good independent think displayed in these page with yours and Thought/Evergreen being the tops when it comes to population genetics. It'd sure be nice to be able to get the numerous posts by you Evergreen, Rasol, and the Bass on these topics without having to always fish around for them everytime one wants to reference them.
The "biliography" could be stickied for easy access since there's no search function always available.
I think it a good idea that we reference each other's secondary work on the primary sources. It's the closest we're ever goning to get to a ES A&E book with chapters by each of us.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: my parents had a choice unlike your ancestors
You call being chased out of a wasteland a "choice"? You stupid existentialist! LOL
quote:You need to stop searching for enemies and spoiling for a fight.
One would have thought you knew the mentality of your own tribe by now. Jewboy has to be pushy and aggressive, Jews are.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
You need to stop searching for enemies and spoiling for a fight.
I think this advice better fits you than it does me, as it is you who made the above assumption from my comment, when nothing is to be found therein to warrant that assumption. I was quite measured and respectful in my reply to your post.
quote:
I asked for a one stop reference guide for postings to these forums dealing with the subject lineages. That's all.
There's a lot of good independent think displayed in these page with yours and Thought/Evergreen being the tops when it comes to population genetics. It'd sure be nice to be able to get the numerous posts by you Evergreen, Rasol, and the Bass on these topics without having to always fish around for them everytime one wants to reference them.
The "biliography" could be stickied for easy access since there's no search function always available.
I think it a good idea that we reference each other's secondary work on the primary sources. It's the closest we're ever goning to get to a ES A&E book with chapters by each of us.
See; wasn't hard, was it? If you feel that I might have misunderstood you in any shape or form, all you needed to simply do, is to clarify your position, as you had just done. No need to jump to conclusions that need not be communicated in what you are reacting to.
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
The Explorer wrote: --------------------------- ---------------------------
Folks isn't it shocking how silent The Explorer is when the white racists are running rampant throughout this forum? No harsh words, no threats, no insults.
I mean compared to how he has attacked Africans, his non-response to the white racists demonstrates a profound tepidness and docility.
Why are you afraid of the white racists Explorer?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^Ok, I'll take the bait this one instance; Answer:
...because what you mindlessly perceive as being "afraid" is really a smart approach to dealing with unimportant "have-all-the time-in-the-world/do-nothing" creeps that creep up on this section of ES, and that are far intellectually beneath me to be noticed, not unlike yourself. It is a time-tested approach that some like to just constantly advice [others] or rather, nag on about here, while others actually do the walk; it is not a mystery that I happen to fall into the latter camp. Now do the *important* folks a favor: Don't let sunlight and honest day's hard work punish you -- crawl right back to that cockroach hole and have a good day.
Ps - re: "far intellectually beneath me to be noticed". Case in point: After years of hard troll work, you still scratch your head about how to quote people. Funny, you are, I tell ya.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Jew boy after all your years of hard work you figured out how many Jews died in the holocaust?
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Jew boy after all your years of hard work you figured out how many Jews died in the holocaust?
Huh? I'm Jewish. I'll keep it simple. I view Israel as a state that is just as legitimate as the United States.
That is, US is a criminal state since its founding. The state was "founded" by elite, land owning criminals who opposed another similarly oppressive state called Great Britain. The United States have exceeded its parent and now is wrecking havoc worldwide.
9/11, not to mention subway attacks in London, was in reaction to the imperialist policies held by the West.
So you see, I place Israel at that level. Uncle Sam's child and one that is following his footsteps.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Is there a "bibliography" so to speak of the peer reviewed reports on M1, R1*, E, and U6 and the discussion here at ES that propose their African lineage?
I mean which threads go into depth on each and a list of the reports in those threads.
Thanks.
I agree. Such a bibliography needs to be established. I'll try looking for papers. May have them around.
It'd be easy to get the ones above if I could get the actual citation. I have a poor habit of not organizing my downloads.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia.
Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. On the other hand, one also observes that: i) M1 is the only variant of haplogroup M found in Africa; ii) M1 has a fairly restricted phylogeography in Africa, barely penetrating into sub-Saharan populations, being found predominantly in association with the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum – a finding that appears to be inconsistent with the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. — Mait Metspalu et al. Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia.
Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. On the other hand, one also observes that: i) M1 is the only variant of haplogroup M found in Africa; ii) M1 has a fairly restricted phylogeography in Africa, barely penetrating into sub-Saharan populations, being found predominantly in association with the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum – a finding that appears to be inconsistent with the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. — Mait Metspalu et al.
You can roll your eyes all you want. You are an African and African people don't believe anything biblical and that is why you people will continue to suffer. M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is a subgroup of the "M" haplogroup.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You can roll your eyes all you want. You are an African and African people don't believe anything biblical and that is why you people will continue to suffer.
Lol you're delusional.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is a subgroup of the "M" haplogroup.
Can you read?
Well here's the dilemma....
Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You can roll your eyes all you want. You are an African and African people don't believe anything biblical and that is why you people will continue to suffer.
Lol you're delusional.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is a subgroup of the "M" haplogroup.
Can you read?
Well here's the dilemma....
Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
#1. You are delusional #2. I didn't say anything about India #3. Who said M1 came from India? #4. I said haplogroup M is Asian in origin #5. Africa never launch a haplogroup M. #6. Haplogroup M1 is a subgroup not the parent haplogroup #7. M1 is mainly found in only Cushitic groups. There is a reason for that. #8. God separated and scatterd man from BABEL not from Africa. #9. India got their M haplogroup/s from Asia most likely from the family branches that broked off from BABEL #10.East Africans (cushitic)got their M1/M haplogroup from Asia most likely from family branches that separated from BABEL #11.Other Africans don't carry any M haplogroup because they are not part of any family that branched off from BABEL. They were already in Africa and separated from there but stayed within Africa.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You can roll your eyes all you want. You are an African and African people don't believe anything biblical and that is why you people will continue to suffer.
Lol you're delusional.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is a subgroup of the "M" haplogroup.
Can you read?
Well here's the dilemma....
Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
#1. You are delusional
#4. I said haplogroup M is Asian in origin
Are you another obsolete art or business student? Get rid of the degree and consider heading back to school.
As I said, you are WRONG. The origin of the UNDERIVED variant is either African or Asian in origin. Asia has the highest M haplogroup diversity.
However, it would be foolish to assume that the origin is Asiatic. That is because underived M parent is L3, which is African in origin. Humans originated in Africa, so it wouldn't be a parsimonious answer.
M1, nor its supposed parent, M, is found within Asia. Let us spoon-feed the excerpt once again:
quote: Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
That lineage ancestral to M1 would be M. In other words, those M derivatives found in Asia are NOT ancestral to the African M1.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: #8. God separated and scatterd man from BABEL not from Africa.
LOL
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Refresher in the midst of the bunch of topics that dominates this section.
Looking at the turn this thread itself has made, scratch out the above.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
God, another arts and craft moron. Introducing biblical myths into reality. Humans, including the M mtdna haplogroup ultimately originated within Africa.
Genetic diversity outside of Africa is just a small segment of the gene pool present within the continent. Don't let the phylogenetic identifiers mislead you.
One could call M: L3-M. It probably should be called that, because amateurs attempt to isolate regions. The modern Asiatic form is a very recent development. Humans, throughout the world, looked identical to Africans for most of human history.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Jew boy after all your years of hard work you figured out how many Jews died in the holocaust?
Huh? I'm Jewish. I'll keep it simple
What makes you think I was referring to you?
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Bob you are such a fvcking idiot and I don't know what you are babbling about. What is this M underived haplogroup? The M haplogroup is Asian in origin and doesn't come from Africa. M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup. It only causes controversy because Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics want to believe in a "out-of-Africa" theory which never happened. If the bible teaches that God separated man from BABEL to all corners of the earth each by family then that is what happened. Man did not populate the world by gradually leaving Africa with time. It was never a journey out of Africa by some groups here and some groups there as scientist and anti-God believers want to believe. It never happened.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You can roll your eyes all you want. You are an African and African people don't believe anything biblical and that is why you people will continue to suffer.
Lol you're delusional.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is a subgroup of the "M" haplogroup.
Can you read?
Well here's the dilemma....
Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
#1. You are delusional
#4. I said haplogroup M is Asian in origin
Are you another obsolete art or business student? Get rid of the degree and consider heading back to school.
As I said, you are WRONG. The origin of the UNDERIVED variant is either African or Asian in origin. Asia has the highest M haplogroup diversity.
However, it would be foolish to assume that the origin is Asiatic. That is because underived M parent is L3, which is African in origin. Humans originated in Africa, so it wouldn't be a parsimonious answer.
M1, nor its supposed parent, M, is found within Asia. Let us spoon-feed the excerpt once again:
quote: Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study)......Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
That lineage ancestral to M1 would be M. In other words, those M derivatives found in Asia are NOT ancestral to the African M1.
Bob you are so stupid and you don't sound smart. Reread your post above and see where you went wrong. People were created. Humans existence lies in the origins of creation and God planted them in the Garden of Eden which is believed to be not in Africa. I don't know why people keep bringing up India and a back migration. This just further proves that Afrocentrists are confused about the M haplogroup so desperately wanting it to be of African origin when it is not. The M haplogroup is Asian in origin. What is this M underived haplogroup? M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup that is why it is found in East Africa mainly amongst 'Cushitic' groups. There weren't no back migration.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01: God, another arts and craft moron. Introducing biblical myths into reality. Humans, including the M mtdna haplogroup ultimately originated within Africa.
Genetic diversity outside of Africa is just a small segment of the gene pool present within the continent. Don't let the phylogenetic identifiers mislead you.
One could call M: L3-M. It probably should be called that, because amateurs attempt to isolate regions. The modern Asiatic form is a very recent development. Humans, throughout the world, looked identical to Africans for most of human history.
You must be an African or a firm believer in science. It is only those kinds that are anti-God. You claim "amateurs" like to isolate regions and you are basically doing the same thing by claiminng M haplogroups as African in origin when it is actually Asian in origin. There is no modern Asiatic form because Asians in general are an old people more likely just as old as Africans or older. Of course I'm talking about the black indigenous groups and not recent migration. I don't know what you are talking when said "genetic diversity outside of Africa" is a small segment. There are genetic diversity outside Africa that Africans don't carry or doesn't have any nexxus to and there are genetic diversity within Africa that outsiders don't have or don't have any link to. Africa isn't as diverse as you afrocentrics want to believe. You find more diverse people in Asia than you do in Africa.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yonis2: [qb]my parents had a choice unlike your ancestors
You call being chased out of a wasteland a "choice"? You stupid existentialist! LOL
quote:You need to stop searching for enemies and spoiling for a fight.
LOL..For Real and its funny his Somali ass sure loves Sweden...Why not go back to that Sh@t hole of a Non existant History, Illiterate backwater Somalia and go an kiss his Arab Prophet's(Piss be Upon Him)Ass..
Last I checked getting chopped and shot to death to the point where you have to flee to White civilization is a "Choice"...LOL. Our Forefathers came when the Americas were nothing but colonies and We helped build it into the Empire it is now...Our Forefathers paved the way so these Illiterate, no history having ass kissing Somalis sould "CHOOSE" to run their asses to White Civilizations..LOL
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Bob you are such a fvcking idiot and I don't know what you are babbling about. What is this M underived haplogroup? The M haplogroup is Asian in origin and doesn't come from Africa. M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup. It only causes controversy because Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics want to believe in a "out-of-Africa" theory which never happened. If the bible teaches that God separated man from BABEL to all corners of the earth each by family then that is what happened. Man did not populate the world by gradually leaving Africa with time. It was never a journey out of Africa by some groups here and some groups there as scientist and anti-God believers want to believe. It never happened.
Wow you're slow Betty, the Asian M derivatives are not ancestral to the African M1, only derivatives of M are found in Asia. The parent haplogroup of M which is L3 is rare in Asia, but highly present in east Africa.
L3 is the maternal haplogroup from which all modern humans outside of Africa derive, it is most common in East Africa, not Asia.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa"--Kivisild
Note the highest diversity of the M haplogroup in India, but no M1 and no ancestral lineages to M1.
In India, there is M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 etc...but no M1. M1 as seen as follows is restricted to the African continent.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Bob you are such a fvcking idiot and I don't know what you are babbling about. What is this M underived haplogroup? The M haplogroup is Asian in origin and doesn't come from Africa. M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup. It only causes controversy because Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics want to believe in a "out-of-Africa" theory which never happened. If the bible teaches that God separated man from BABEL to all corners of the earth each by family then that is what happened. Man did not populate the world by gradually leaving Africa with time. It was never a journey out of Africa by some groups here and some groups there as scientist and anti-God believers want to believe. It never happened.
Wow you're slow Betty, the Asian M derivatives are not ancestral to the African M1, only derivatives of M are found in Asia. The parent haplogroup of M which is L3 is rare in Asia, but highly present in east Africa.
L3 is the maternal haplogroup from which all modern humans outside of Africa derive, it is most common in East Africa, not Asia.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa"--Kivisild
Note the highest diversity of the M haplogroup in India, but no M1 and no ancestral lineages to M1.
In India, there is M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 etc...but no M1. M1 as seen as follows is restricted to the African continent.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: I don't know what you are babbling about.
Sounds like babble to you because you're a nut...
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: What is the Asian M derivative?
Asia has derivatives of the macro-Haplogroup M which is the descendant of African haplogroup L3.
In Asia you find derivatives such as M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M7, M8 etc...but no M1 or lineages ancestral to the African M1 nor L3 ancestor of M. M1 is restricted to the African continent, as well as its ancestor L3. So the Asian origin is down the drain.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: L3 is actually the M haplogroup?
African haplogroup L3 is the ancestor haplogroup to M.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said.
Again, you don't know because you're totally unread on the subject, of course what I said had everything to do with what you said.
There are no ancestral lineages to the African M1 found in Asia and the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups.
If M is Asian how come they don't have ancestral L3 lineages?
Instead L3 which is the ancestor of M is found in Africa at its highest frequencies in east Africans, where it just so happens that M1 which is also restricted to Africa is found, no M1 in Asia except for low frequencies in the southwest Asia which are associated with the African M1.
There is no ancestral M1 lineage in Asia that can be linked to the African M1.
The M haplogroup was simply present in Africa before they left when the M haplogroup arose 60,000 years ago from African L3.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa" --Kivisild
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Read up. MTdna M1 is found from the horn of Africa up into Egypt and over into the Maghreb. Even in the middle East. it distributed from Eastern African its not just found in Cushitic speakers. I am unsure where you got that information from.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Bob you are such a fvcking idiot and I don't know what you are babbling about. What is this M underived haplogroup? The M haplogroup is Asian in origin and doesn't come from Africa. M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup. It only causes controversy because Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics want to believe in a "out-of-Africa" theory which never happened. If the bible teaches that God separated man from BABEL to all corners of the earth each by family then that is what happened. Man did not populate the world by gradually leaving Africa with time. It was never a journey out of Africa by some groups here and some groups there as scientist and anti-God believers want to believe. It never happened.
Wow you're slow Betty, the Asian M derivatives are not ancestral to the African M1, only derivatives of M are found in Asia. The parent haplogroup of M which is L3 is rare in Asia, but highly present in east Africa.
L3 is the maternal haplogroup from which all modern humans outside of Africa derive, it is most common in East Africa, not Asia.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa"--Kivisild
Note the highest diversity of the M haplogroup in India, but no M1 and no ancestral lineages to M1.
In India, there is M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 etc...but no M1. M1 as seen as follows is restricted to the African continent.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Stupid woman. You need to consider shutting the **** up and getting an education.
The underived variant of M is NOT found in Asia and thus this is a controversial issue. In other words, the mother lineage of M1, which is a sister clade, of the M derivatives in Asia are NOT found in that continent.
Let's slow it down:
M1 ancestor NOT found in Asia
M1 sisters FOUND in Asia
Most M derivatives FOUND in Asia
Therefore: CONTROVERSIAL. It could be African or Asian.
God, I can't believe uneducated white women can access the internet as well. Disconnect that **** and get yourself re-schooled.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Refresher in the midst of the bunch of topics that dominates this section.
Looking at the turn this thread itself has made, scratch out the above.
Indeed as you once mentioned it is a daunting task to keep a thread on topic in this section of the forum (without moderation).
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
^ Do you feel that Haplogroup M has an African origin? I understand that L3 has an African origin, but M underived has yet to be found AFAIK.
That is where the controversy arises. However it would be most parsimonious to suggest M has an African origin since its mother, L3, is restricted to the continent of Africa.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
Wow you're slow Betty, the Asian M derivatives are not ancestral to the African M1, only derivatives of M are found in Asia. The parent haplogroup of M which is L3 is rare in Asia, but highly present in east Africa.
L3 is actually a pan-African marker.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01: ^ Do you feel that Haplogroup M has an African origin?
The M haplogroup was simply present in the African population that left Africa to populate the world, no ancestor to it outside of Africa.
Only immediate ancestor to M is present inside Africa, note that M arose around 60,000 years ago, which is when Africans were making there way out of Africa to populate the world, so indeed the most plausible scenario would simply be an African origin for this haplogroup.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa" --Kivisild
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
I understand that L3 has an African origin, but M underived has yet to be found AFAIK.
This was already mentioned in the body of notes posted in the intro of this thread:
In the case of M1, we were told:
We found 489C (Table 3) in all Indian and eastern-African haplogroup M mtDNAs analysed, but not in the non-M haplogroup controls, including 20 Africans representing all African main lineages (6 L1, 4 L2, 10 L3) and 11 Asians.
These findings, and the lack of positive evidence (given the RFLP status) that the 10400 C->T transition defining M has happened more than once, suggest that it has a single common origin, but do not resolve its geographic origin. Analysis of position 10873 (the MnlI RFLP) revealed that all the M molecules (eastern African, Asian and those sporadically found in our population surveys) were 10873C (Table 3). As for the non-M mtDNAs, the ancient L1 and the L2 African-specific lineages5, as well as most L3 African mtDNAs, also carry 10873C.
Conversely, all non-M mtDNAs of non-African origin analysed so far carry 10873T. These data indicate that the **transition 10400 C-->T, which defines haplogroup M**, arose on an African background characterized by the ancestral state 10873C, which is also present in four primate (common and pygmy chimps, gorilla and orangutan) mtDNA sequences. — Semino et al.
And this:
Am. J. Hum. Genet., 66:1362-1383, 2000
mtDNA Variation in the South African Kung and Khwe and Their Genetic Relationships to Other African Populations
"The Asian mtDNA phylogeny is subdivided into two macrohaplogroups, one of which is M. M is delineated by a DdeI site at np 10394 and an AluI site of np 10397. The only African mtDNA found to have both of these sites is the Senegalese haplotype AF24. This haplotype branches off African subhaplogroup L3a (figs.2 and3), suggesting that haplogroup M mtDNAs might have been derived from this African mtDNA lineage..."
So, excuses that a candidate for direct haplogroup M1 antecedence has not been located are no longer tenable.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
^ Sounds good. I should've skimmed through the notes above. That results above demonstrate that the M mutation developed within Africa unlike other non-M mtDNA of non-African origins.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
That's what molecular data suggests. Of course, some choose to remain either willfully ignorant or seek refuge in selective amnesia, and favor highly speculative reckoning over actual tangible-evidential material. Using the bible against molecular tangibles no doubt falls into the latter. When that happens, we are no longer dealing with science.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
You're an Idiot! If Asia doesn't have M1 that is because whatever family branch that carries M1 doesn't reside in Asia but that doesn't mean M1 isn't Asian in origin. Why does Asia need L3? L3 isn't Asian in origin unlike M haplogroups. Get over it. There were never out-of-africa journeys taking place.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Read up. MTdna M1 is found from the horn of Africa up into Egypt and over into the Maghreb. Even in the middle East. it distributed from Eastern African its not just found in Cushitic speakers. I am unsure where you got that information from.
Shut the fvck up. I didn't say that M1 is only found in 'cushitic' groups. I said it is found in east africa mainly amongst cushitic groups. I know M1 is found in the Middle east since it is Asian in origin.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
M hasn't been found in Asia. Instead India has the highest diversity of M haplogroups. However M1 is largely confined to Africa and the parent of M, L3, is African in origin.
This is a rather controversial haplogroup. One thing that could be said is that M1 wasn't brought into Africa (if that's the case) by pale skinned people. South Asians are tropically adapted, and at that time of the back migration were more-or-less identical to Africans.
M is found throughout Asia. M1 is a subgroup of the M haplogroup and it is only found in East Africa mainly to those of Cushitic origins. M1 was brought into Africa by 100% black indigenous Asians. It is a controversial haplogroup because eurocentrics and afrocentrics want to believe that mankind made some journey out of Africa and populated the whole world which isn't true to biblical teachings. God separated and scattered man from BABEL which would be present day Asia. The M haplogroup is indeed Asian in origin and M1 is just a subgroup of M. West Africans and Southern Africans were already in Africa but was scattered and separated but never left Africa. They were just scattered throughout Africa. In the beginning "Asia" and "Africa" was one land and people lived on both.
You need to provide a study for that. Most derivatives of M is found in South Asia. However the underived M variant has NOT been found in Asia.
Just look above, I got sources on my side. On the other hand, you don't. The presence of SISTER mutations in Asia does not mean that its mother, the underived variant, has a South Asian origin.
That is why assumptions, at this point, is a very immature position. The origin of the M underived haplogroup has not been agreed upon and is thus controversial.
Saying that, the Asiatic base of this haplogroup are most common amongst black-skinned populations within Asia. In addition, M1 is largely restricted to East Africa and not found within the assumed base region.
Bob you are such a fvcking idiot and I don't know what you are babbling about. What is this M underived haplogroup? The M haplogroup is Asian in origin and doesn't come from Africa. M1 is a subgroup of the M parent haplogroup. It only causes controversy because Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics want to believe in a "out-of-Africa" theory which never happened. If the bible teaches that God separated man from BABEL to all corners of the earth each by family then that is what happened. Man did not populate the world by gradually leaving Africa with time. It was never a journey out of Africa by some groups here and some groups there as scientist and anti-God believers want to believe. It never happened.
Wow you're slow Betty, the Asian M derivatives are not ancestral to the African M1, only derivatives of M are found in Asia. The parent haplogroup of M which is L3 is rare in Asia, but highly present in east Africa.
L3 is the maternal haplogroup from which all modern humans outside of Africa derive, it is most common in East Africa, not Asia.
"the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa"--Kivisild
Note the highest diversity of the M haplogroup in India, but no M1 and no ancestral lineages to M1.
In India, there is M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 etc...but no M1. M1 as seen as follows is restricted to the African continent.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Stupid woman. You need to consider shutting the **** up and getting an education.
The underived variant of M is NOT found in Asia and thus this is a controversial issue. In other words, the mother lineage of M1, which is a sister clade, of the M derivatives in Asia are NOT found in that continent.
Let's slow it down:
M1 ancestor NOT found in Asia
M1 sisters FOUND in Asia
Most M derivatives FOUND in Asia
Therefore: CONTROVERSIAL. It could be African or Asian.
God, I can't believe uneducated white women can access the internet as well. Disconnect that **** and get yourself re-schooled.
You're not making any sense. What is this underived variant of M? How do you know it is an underived variant of M? How can it be underived yet a variant? If this underived variant of M is not Asian in origin then why is it controversial? M1 is a sister clade of M that is found in Asia but the M has an underived variant that is not found in Asia yet M is derived from Asia but don't host any M1? If not, why is it found in the Middle East? Why does the continent of Asia have to host a M1 derivative or M1? Why can't the nations that carry M1 just live in East Africa (sarcasm). What is a/the M1 ancestor? I never heard of that. I know M1 sisters are found in Asia! I know most M derivatives are found in Asia! And there are some "controversial sisters" that is found in Africa! What's your point? M is Asian in origin. If it can be African or Asian then what are you arguing. There shouldn't be anything wrong with 'M is Asian in origin.'
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You're an Idiot! If Asia doesn't have M1 that is because whatever family branch that carries M1 doesn't reside in Asia but that doesn't mean M1 isn't Asian in origin. Why does Asia need L3? L3 isn't Asian in origin unlike M haplogroups. Get over it. There were never out-of-africa journeys taking place.
Dumb housewife. Someone needs to slap you.
Haplogroup mtDNA M-underived is NOT found within Asia. Nor is L3, just child variants of M* which doesn't push the origin within Asia.
In other words, it doesn't exist in that part of the world. The M lineages within Asia are DERIVATIVES of M and are SISTER clades to M1.
Get it? These are not ancestral to M1. On the other hand, L3 is ancestral to M, and according to molecular studies, M carries the African 10873C-->T transition sequence.
That isn't present in non-African, non-M haplogroups. You need to get over it white woman and start providing counter-evidence or at least acknowledging the evidence at hand.
I initially stated that it could be of Asian origin, since I believed that M* wasn't found. However I was corrected and thus my position has adapted to that reality. That the kind of behavior we should maintain.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That's what molecular data suggests. Of course, some choose to remain either willfully ignorant or seek refuge in selective amnesia, and favor highly speculative reckoning over actual tangible-evidential material. Using the bible against molecular tangibles no doubt falls into the latter. When that happens, we are no longer dealing with science.
Molecular data isn't even real. It only works when someone don't know the age of something, but when the age is known molecular data is useless because it always gives different data than that which is already known. Of course Africans and scientist will ignore what the Bible says because it debunks the theory that man left Africa and populated the world. Science isn't always real; for the most part it is just guess work.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You're an Idiot! If Asia doesn't have M1 that is because whatever family branch that carries M1 doesn't reside in Asia but that doesn't mean M1 isn't Asian in origin. Why does Asia need L3? L3 isn't Asian in origin unlike M haplogroups. Get over it. There were never out-of-africa journeys taking place.
Dumb housewife. Someone needs to slap you.
Haplogroup mtDNA M-underived is NOT found within Asia. Nor is L3, just child variants of M* which doesn't push the origin within Asia.
In other words, it doesn't exist in that part of the world. The M lineages within Asia are DERIVATIVES of M and are SISTER clades to M1.
Get it? These are not ancestral to M1. On the other hand, L3 is ancestral to M, and according to molecular studies, M carries the African 10873C-->T transition sequence.
That isn't present in non-African, non-M haplogroups. You need to get over it white woman and start providing counter-evidence or at least acknowledging the evidence at hand.
I initially stated that it could be of Asian origin, since I believed that M* wasn't found. However I was corrected and thus my position has adapted to that reality. That the kind of behavior we should maintain.
Bob shut up. What is this underived M? Why you keep talking about L3? I'm talking about M as having its origins in Asia.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You're an Idiot! If Asia doesn't have M1 that is because whatever family branch that carries M1 doesn't reside in Asia but that doesn't mean M1 isn't Asian in origin. Why does Asia need L3? L3 isn't Asian in origin unlike M haplogroups. Get over it. There were never out-of-africa journeys taking place.
Dumb housewife. Someone needs to slap you.
Haplogroup mtDNA M-underived is NOT found within Asia. Nor is L3, just child variants of M* which doesn't push the origin within Asia.
In other words, it doesn't exist in that part of the world. The M lineages within Asia are DERIVATIVES of M and are SISTER clades to M1.
Get it? These are not ancestral to M1. On the other hand, L3 is ancestral to M, and according to molecular studies, M carries the African 10873C-->T transition sequence.
That isn't present in non-African, non-M haplogroups. You need to get over it white woman and start providing counter-evidence or at least acknowledging the evidence at hand.
I initially stated that it could be of Asian origin, since I believed that M* wasn't found. However I was corrected and thus my position has adapted to that reality. That the kind of behavior we should maintain.
Bob shut up. What is this underived M? Why you keep talking about L3? I'm talking about M as having its origins in Asia.
Umm..that would be M mtDNA that is ANCESTRAL to M1. None of the M derivatives in Asia are ANCESTRAL to M1, but are rather SISTER clades.
That's what made this topic controversial. M1, nor its 'underived' ancestor, M, are actually found in Asia.
The molecular data above suggest that mtDNA clusters with African counterparts. Saying that, the issues you seem to be bringing up, can be limited with good calibration techniques.
These models could be used as supporting evidence. The Bible, on the other hand, cannot be used in such a manner. That is, unless, you ignore sections that strictly oppose women whoring around, i.e. pre-marital sex. I doubt a typical white woman would survive in Christian villages within the Middle East.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: LOL..For Real and its funny his Somali ass sure loves Sweden...Why not go back to that Sh@t hole of a Non existant History, Illiterate backwater Somalia and go an kiss his Arab Prophet's(Piss be Upon Him)Ass..
I have no problems with 'white civilization', i like it very much and i will run after it where ever it goes. Does it bother you?
Hope i didn't brake a circuit in that Black-nazi semi-empty vessel of yours that lies between your ears.
As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me, so i wish you all the luck and mental enrichment with the wealth of history you posses, from the Olmecs to the Persian Ebony Emperialists, Egyptian anti-leucoderm Pharaos, Xiang Chinese of the Dogon tribe and whatnot.
quote:Last I checked getting chopped and shot to death to the point where you have to flee to White civilization is a "Choice"...LOL
Of course it's a choice, duh! No one put a gun to their head.
Also i'm born way before the warlord era, so do the math yourself. Besides i've been in northern somalia (where my parents are from) four times just the last decade and the average person there has probably a higher living standard than the average person in majority of african countries, so i'm sure life wouldn't be as the hell you imagine if my parents never migrated during the 70's. My relatives have always been resourceful be they abroad or at home, that's how we roll.
Btw i've noticed that you black-Nazis always feel the urge to attack someones background whenever you disagree with his/her views? Is it maybe a psychological remnant from the Jim crow period? If so then Stop using the tactics of your tormenters and Start being creative, damn it.
quote: our Forefathers came when the Americas were nothing but colonies and We helped build it into the Empire it is now...
I'm sure they did...too bad all the millions of european immigrants that arrived centuries later took all the credit and saw themselves as the hosts and treated you as guests.
quote:Our Forefathers paved the way so these Illiterate, no history having ass kissing Somalis sould "CHOOSE" to run their asses to White Civilizations..LOL
Why do you call it white civilization if your Forefathers took part in building it? Seems like your mouth runs faster than your own conviction. Emancipate yourself brother. Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Yonis السلام عليكم akhi why are you even bother discussing anything with these Kufar who hate our Prophet (saw) but at the same time claim the muslim history of Sahel, without Islam that region would have nothing at all, that is why they are trying to claim my ancestors in Sudan. They attack you like this because your muslim and therefore try to degrade your background because you don't reply with same venom, but they are cowards when the real white racists attack them everyday on forum, they are true cowards.
I don't know why the Kufar insulting our Prophet(saw) is saying As-Sumal has no history when your people have great history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLf4pudtD5E Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Omdurman wrote:
Yonis السلام عليكم akhi why are you even bother discussing anything with these Kufar who hate our Prophet (saw) but at the same time claim the muslim history of Sahel, without Islam that region would have nothing at all, that is why they are trying to claim my ancestors in Sudan.
Yeah, notice also sometimes how a typical black-nazi will claim the Moors and in the very next breath condemn or belittle Islam and Muslims, LOL... i guess hypocracy has no boundaries if your overall agenda is a simple "feel good" motivated agenda and nothing else is of concern.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
They have so muhc hatred for white racisist but they then use the same language on other people who have different opinion, just sick mind. I wish they showed their hate for Islam when they visit pyramids Sudan, then they would know true pain.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Yonis السلام عليكم akhi why are you even bother discussing anything with these Kufar who hate our Prophet (saw) but at the same time claim the muslim history of Sahel, without Islam that region would have nothing at all, that is why they are trying to claim my ancestors in Sudan. They attack you like this because your muslim and therefore try to degrade your background because you don't reply with same venom, but they are cowards when the real white racists attack them everyday on forum, they are true cowards.
Do you also adhere to a magical race of "Somalids"?
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Are you saying Somalians don't exist? what mean?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: They have so muhc hatred for white racisist but they then use the same language on other people who have different opinion, just sick mind. I wish they showed their hate for Islam when they visit pyramids Sudan, then they would know true pain.
Or those in Egypt for that matter, that would be something to experience. But unfortunatly Black-nazis don't leave their own city let alone country, so the risk of such lesson to take place is extremely minimal.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Are you saying Somalians don't exist? what mean?
He means if you are a North sudanese of Afroasiatic descent or a south Sudanese Nilo-Saharan or West Sudanese of Niger-congo descent? The term "Somalid" was just a substitution to collectively name indigenous East africans of E1b1b lineage coined by a certain Assyrian who strongly believes in genetic races because the highest frequency of this lineage was found in somalia, a simple subjective theory with some bases to it nonetheless, if you put a side the term which can be changed with anything. But this seems to have stuck on Mindovermatters mind longer than others including mine. LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
I'm from North
Sudan, Somalia, Chad, Eirtrea, Ethiopia, Egypt are brothers yes but those many different terms like e1b16 is crap mean nothing
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Are you saying Somalians don't exist? what mean?
No, that's not what I said nor implied.
Let me make myself clear this time, do you believe that Somalians, Sudanese, Eritreans, Ethiopians, Kenyans, Chad, Egyptians etc...are indigenous black Africans, or do you distinguish yourself from other Africans referred to as black by Europeans such as Yonis does?
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I wish they showed their hate for Islam when they visit pyramids Sudan, then they would know true pain.
So Islam is not a peaceful religion after all? You make people feel pain huh? Lol Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
Islam has nothing to do with the ancient civilizations in those lands. However, that doesn't mean that Islam didn't bring in good. Just look at education, health care and other areas of civilization that Muslims were involved with.
In addition, Islam isn't infected by the white power structure either. Muslims share a common enemy, so I don't understand why the religion is disliked.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That's what molecular data suggests. Of course, some choose to remain either willfully ignorant or seek refuge in selective amnesia, and favor highly speculative reckoning over actual tangible-evidential material. Using the bible against molecular tangibles no doubt falls into the latter. When that happens, we are no longer dealing with science.
Molecular data isn't even real. It only works when someone don't know the age of something, but when the age is known molecular data is useless because it always gives different data than that which is already known. Of course Africans and scientist will ignore what the Bible says because it debunks the theory that man left Africa and populated the world. Science isn't always real; for the most part it is just guess work.
What the hell? If you're talking about limitations of the molecular clock analysis, plenty exist. However calibration methods could enhance accuracy.
Saying that, such evidence as supportive evidence is quite valid. On the other hand, the Bible, is as authentic as Dragon Ball Z. The most parsimonious answer would be that mtDNA M has an African origin.
Reasons include, absence of M lineages that are ancestral to African M1. In addition, M1 and the ancestor of the macrohaplogroup, L3, has an African origin. Molecular data pushes the origin closer to Africa.
What else evidence is there to suggest that M is Asiatic of origin? The fucking Bible? I hope you are following it all, including the guidelines regarding premarital sex. Afronut, I am taking the most parsimonious position.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Mindovermatter wrote: Let me make myself clear this time, do you believe that Somalians, Sudanese, Eritreans, Ethiopians, Kenyans, Chad, Egyptians etc...are indigenous black Africans, or do you distinguish yourself from other Africans referred to as black by Europeans such as Yonis does?
I don't think i follow you here. Where have i ever claimed that the groups you named above are not indigenous Africans since that's what you obviously are insinuating. Make sure to prepare some citations since i might ask you if necessery to pull some from places not associated with your ass.
quote:do you distinguish yourself from other Africans referred to as black by Europeans such as Yonis does?
Distunguish in which way/ways? You need to be specific. And what does Europeans have to do with anything?
There are millions of ways to distinguish everything from each other. If you want an answer relating to any kind of distinguishment then his last post pretty much answered your question in beforehand, don't you call that a form of distinguishment?
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by astenb:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob_01: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bettyboo: [qb] The 'M' genetic pattern is Asian in origin.
I don't know what you are babbling about. What is the Asian M derivative? L3 is actually the M haplogroup? I don't know what you are talking about and nothing you said has anything to do with what I said. M haplogroup is of Asian origins and M1 is a subgroup of M and found mainly in East Africa amongst 'Cushitic' groups. God separated man from Asian so there were never "out-of-africa" journeys taking place. Mankind did not pop-up in Africa from thin air nor emanated from monkeys so get over with this African origin bullshyt. Man was created. M is Asian in origin!
Read up. MTdna M1 is found from the horn of Africa up into Egypt and over into the Maghreb. Even in the middle East. it distributed from Eastern African its not just found in Cushitic speakers. I am unsure where you got that information from.
Shut the fvck up. I didn't say that M1 is only found in 'cushitic' groups. I said it is found in east africa mainly amongst cushitic groups. I know M1 is found in the Middle east since it is Asian in origin.
No "lady", M1 is found ALL across the horn of Africa amongst ALL Groups and even found as far south as Tanzania. Generally ALL Ethiopian groups have consistently sampled equal for frequencies of M1 except for those that live on the fringes. That even includes the Nilotic and Omotic speakers of Southern Ethiopia. It is clear to anyone with a BRAIN that Mtdna M1 was diverse in East Africa before the genesis of "Cushitic" peoples or any other ethnic group.
The DATA BELOW does not agree with what you are saying shiit-for-brains. And in ANY CASE M1 is a MATERNAL DNA Marker, not PATERNAL! - Why are you associating Biblical "CUSH" with M1 using "HAM" as supporting evidence? Cush would NOT get M1 from HAM, he would get his Paternal Marker or Y-DNA from Ham. His Maternal Ancestry would come from his MOTHER. The mother of Cush and Wife of Ham was called "Na'eltama'uk"
Anyway here is the data lady. You are wrong.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
LOL astenb you are Aware_dog/kitfo?
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: [Are you saying Somalians don't exist? what mean?
No, that's not what I said nor implied.
Let me make myself clear this time, do you believe that Somalians, Sudanese, Eritreans, Ethiopians, Kenyans, Chad, Egyptians etc...are indigenous black Africans, or do you distinguish yourself from other Africans referred to as black by Europeans such as Yonis does?
I'm a Sudanese i distingish myself only from those i have no relations with like the Zulu, notthing with skin color, dark Sudanese like dinka will always be closer to me than light skinned berber african or African american so why make believe unity?
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I wish they showed their hate for Islam when they visit pyramids Sudan, then they would know true pain.
So Islam is not a peaceful religion after all? You make people feel pain huh? Lol [/QUOTE]
If i spitted on your mother, you would kill me and good so! This is the same to me if you degrade my culture.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I'm a Sudanese i distingish myself only from those i have no relations with like the Zulu, notthing with skin color, dark Sudanese like dinka will always be closer to me than light skinned berber african or African american so why make believe unity?
Make believe unity? I'm not suggesting any unity. Anyway, what kind of relations do you speak of?
Relations such as religion, culture, ethnicity, biological what?
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I wish they showed their hate for Islam when they visit pyramids Sudan, then they would know true pain.
So Islam is not a peaceful religion after all? You make people feel pain huh? Lol
If i spitted on your mother, you would kill me and good so! This is the same to me if you degrade my culture. [/QUOTE]
A lil extreme huh? I'd say so, and a bad example with spitting on someones mother. Religion didn't give you natural life, nor does it nurture you like a mother will. Most normal people would defend their mothers over religion anyday.
Btw I have nothing against Islam or any religion.
Edit;
You know what as a matter of fact, don't even respond, as it is totally off topic to what this thread is about. I blame myself for digressing.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That's what molecular data suggests. Of course, some choose to remain either willfully ignorant or seek refuge in selective amnesia, and favor highly speculative reckoning over actual tangible-evidential material. Using the bible against molecular tangibles no doubt falls into the latter. When that happens, we are no longer dealing with science.
Molecular data isn't even real. It only works when someone don't know the age of something, but when the age is known molecular data is useless because it always gives different data than that which is already known. Of course Africans and scientist will ignore what the Bible says because it debunks the theory that man left Africa and populated the world. Science isn't always real; for the most part it is just guess work.
What the hell? If you're talking about limitations of the molecular clock analysis, plenty exist. However calibration methods could enhance accuracy.
Saying that, such evidence as supportive evidence is quite valid. On the other hand, the Bible, is as authentic as Dragon Ball Z. The most parsimonious answer would be that mtDNA M has an African origin.
Reasons include, absence of M lineages that are ancestral to African M1. In addition, M1 and the ancestor of the macrohaplogroup, L3, has an African origin. Molecular data pushes the origin closer to Africa.
What else evidence is there to suggest that M is Asiatic of origin? The fucking Bible? I hope you are following it all, including the guidelines regarding premarital sex. Afronut, I am taking the most parsimonious position.
Molecular data is not accurate and doesn't work. It only works when someone doesn't have the information, but if the information is known, molecular data gives a totally different data or information than what is already known to be true. The data is just random information that anyone would accept if desperate enough for 'data' or "facts."
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: You're an Idiot! If Asia doesn't have M1 that is because whatever family branch that carries M1 doesn't reside in Asia but that doesn't mean M1 isn't Asian in origin. Why does Asia need L3? L3 isn't Asian in origin unlike M haplogroups. Get over it. There were never out-of-africa journeys taking place.
Dumb housewife. Someone needs to slap you.
Haplogroup mtDNA M-underived is NOT found within Asia. Nor is L3, just child variants of M* which doesn't push the origin within Asia.
In other words, it doesn't exist in that part of the world. The M lineages within Asia are DERIVATIVES of M and are SISTER clades to M1.
Get it? These are not ancestral to M1. On the other hand, L3 is ancestral to M, and according to molecular studies, M carries the African 10873C-->T transition sequence.
That isn't present in non-African, non-M haplogroups. You need to get over it white woman and start providing counter-evidence or at least acknowledging the evidence at hand.
I initially stated that it could be of Asian origin, since I believed that M* wasn't found. However I was corrected and thus my position has adapted to that reality. That the kind of behavior we should maintain.
Bob shut up. What is this underived M? Why you keep talking about L3? I'm talking about M as having its origins in Asia.
Umm..that would be M mtDNA that is ANCESTRAL to M1. None of the M derivatives in Asia are ANCESTRAL to M1, but are rather SISTER clades.
That's what made this topic controversial. M1, nor its 'underived' ancestor, M, are actually found in Asia.
The molecular data above suggest that mtDNA clusters with African counterparts. Saying that, the issues you seem to be bringing up, can be limited with good calibration techniques.
These models could be used as supporting evidence. The Bible, on the other hand, cannot be used in such a manner. That is, unless, you ignore sections that strictly oppose women whoring around, i.e. pre-marital sex. I doubt a typical white woman would survive in Christian villages within the Middle East.
You're not making any sense. Get over it. M is Asian in origin.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: LOL astenb you are Aware_dog/kitfo?
No, I just pulled those off that site. I was a member there but never contributed....Just read the info. It seems that the site is now gone but the data is up for someone to archive.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: M is Asian in origin.
You are one stupid persistent bitch. I give you that.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with! Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That's what molecular data suggests. Of course, some choose to remain either willfully ignorant or seek refuge in selective amnesia, and favor highly speculative reckoning over actual tangible-evidential material. Using the bible against molecular tangibles no doubt falls into the latter. When that happens, we are no longer dealing with science.
Molecular data isn't even real. It only works when someone don't know the age of something, but when the age is known molecular data is useless because it always gives different data than that which is already known. Of course Africans and scientist will ignore what the Bible says because it debunks the theory that man left Africa and populated the world. Science isn't always real; for the most part it is just guess work.
What the hell? If you're talking about limitations of the molecular clock analysis, plenty exist. However calibration methods could enhance accuracy.
Saying that, such evidence as supportive evidence is quite valid. On the other hand, the Bible, is as authentic as Dragon Ball Z. The most parsimonious answer would be that mtDNA M has an African origin.
Reasons include, absence of M lineages that are ancestral to African M1. In addition, M1 and the ancestor of the macrohaplogroup, L3, has an African origin. Molecular data pushes the origin closer to Africa.
What else evidence is there to suggest that M is Asiatic of origin? The fucking Bible? I hope you are following it all, including the guidelines regarding premarital sex. Afronut, I am taking the most parsimonious position.
Molecular data is not accurate and doesn't work. It only works when someone doesn't have the information, but if the information is known, molecular data gives a totally different data or information than what is already known to be true. The data is just random information that anyone would accept if desperate enough for 'data' or "facts."
I don't even get where you get your facts, dumb woman. Prove it by posting an academic source in the area.
Seriously, shut up. How the hell is M underived Asiatic in origin? God, kill yourself. There are NO ancestral derivatives of M1 in Asia. It is foolish to assume that it is Asiatic just because more derivatives are found in Asia. Your position is NOT parsimonious.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I'm a Sudanese i distingish myself only from those i have no relations with like the Zulu, notthing with skin color, dark Sudanese like dinka will always be closer to me than light skinned berber african or African american so why make believe unity?
Make believe unity? I'm not suggesting any unity. Anyway, what kind of relations do you speak of?
Relations such as religion, culture, ethnicity, biological what?
Yes friend that is what i mean, a boy from Khartoum can blend in Ethiopia, Somalia Eritrea Egypt easily and the same back because we same people different languages
quote: Btw I have nothing against Islam or any religion.
Then i have respect for you.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
So here's an update: Afronut continues to not post any sources to back her claim.
She thinks that her words is evidence. Yet we don't even know that, likely ugly, broad. We're not debating with the Noam Chomsky of bio-anthropology, so what the **** it up?
It's clear that she doesn't know how to provide evidence. The Bible isn't evidence, because genetics as a study didn't exist at that time, my friends.
On top of that, the Bible lists patrilineal lineages. This debate revolving M involves matrilineal lineages. Besides, Abraham acknowledged that it was common for Semites to mate with Canaanites and other Hamites.
He warned Isaac to say away from Canaanite women and was probably had to do with the fathering of Ishmael with an Egyptian. Using that biblical evidence, we'd expect African extraction matrilineally-speaking. The Canaanites descended from Ham, remember.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with! [/QB]
Don't lie they have rich history, you are Racist and angry because Yonis doesnt feel inferrior to anyone like you do and speaks hes mind, show me one Castle from your country as big as those Somalian castles in the video i posted and don't come with castles from Dongola or Ethiopia, i want to see from your country!.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Let me get this straight. Bettyboo, the self-professed Christian fundamentalist who doesn't believe in abortion is now arguing with genetic evidence??!!
ROTFLOL
So she denies evolution or that humans originated in Africa, but the SAME genetic evidence which supports such scientific facts she now tries to address in her favor!!
This is like a 'Christian Scientist' who doesn't believe in medical treatment but prayer only, trying to argue about the success and practicality of the latest surgical technology, or someone against homosexuality discussing the best gay sex techniques!! LOL I cracked up reading that stupid girl's posts!
Hey Betty, all M groups in Asia are born from M* the original mother clade which is itself born from L3 which originated in AFRICA which is the birthplace of humanity! The very fact that these genetic signatures change over time is PROOF of evolution!
Now run off to a bake sale and don't bother to engage in things you know nothing about! Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with!
Comes from the BOY who's people have decided that the midget Haile Sellasie is their god. Lmao
"Dat afrycaan Man partya with why man, must bi God man,"
How does it feel that your God feared Somalis? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Typo..
quote:Djehuti meant to say: Let me get this straight. Bettyboo, the self-professed Christian fundamentalist who doesn't believe in EVOLUTION is now arguing with genetic evidence??!!
Sorry LOL Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with!
LOL..for real. I mean can you name anything of Somali origin?? The funny part is the poor things need others to create civilizations so they can go leech off of them...Reminds me of the Jewish Kazar..lol.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with!
Comes from the BOY who's people have decided that the midget Haile Sellasie is their god. Lmao
"Dat afrycaan Man partya with why man, must bi God man,"
How does it feel that your God feared Somalis?
Yonis, where are you living? And why are you there? Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Let me get this straight. Bettyboo, the self-professed Christian fundamentalist who doesn't believe in abortion is now arguing with genetic evidence??!!
ROTFLOL
So she denies evolution or that humans originated in Africa, but the SAME genetic evidence which supports such scientific facts she now tries to address in her favor!!
This is like a 'Christian Scientist' who doesn't believe in medical treatment but prayer only, trying to argue about the success and practicality of the latest surgical technology, or someone against homosexuality discussing the best gay sex techniques!! LOL I cracked up reading that stupid girl's posts!
Hey Betty, all M groups in Asia are born from M* the original mother clade which is itself born from L3 which originated in AFRICA which is the birthplace of humanity! The very fact that these genetic signatures change over time is PROOF of evolution!
Now run off to a bake sale and don't bother to engage in things you know nothing about!
Remember Betty Boo is Afronut slayer..its a psychopath...
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with!
Comes from the BOY who's people have decided that the midget Haile Sellasie is their god. Lmao
"Dat afrycaan Man partya with why man, must bi God man,"
How does it feel that your God feared Somalis?
And YET...Jamaicans have a culture and History...Jamacans are influential and have made an impact in the world...Name a Somali that can compare to Bob Marley...CRICKET...CRICKET...LMAO.
Sweden sure is far from Somalia...I wonder what exciting and wonderful things Somalis...IN SOMALIA...Please Explain to us...??? LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman who nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Where did I look down on Sudanese people?? Show me please, and what makes you think I look down on Africans? Yonis comes here talking **** about West Africans and even looks down on Darker as he calls them Bantu Somalis and yet the White man did'nt teach him that...he is just an ignorant son of a bitch and if he thinks he is going to belittle African Americans and think people will remain silent he is mistaken.
Also why the F#ck do you people always claim Black Americans were stripped of our culture by the White Man??? LOL...We were enslaved for 300 yrs and yet RETAINED and Revolutionalized AFRICAN CULTURE...Just what do you think Blues, Rock N Roll, Hip Hop etc...Came From?? Its a Fusion of African and European culture.
And What Somali Leaders...LOL...Name a Somali that can compare to the West African Sundjaita or Askia Muhammed...
As far as Islam goes I don't really give a damn..honestly. Christ was the last prophet plain and simple thats my belief...if you believe in Muhammed so be it. Heck at least I can give credit to Early Islamic societies
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Well said! Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Im waiting to be educated about this great Somali civlizations made IN SOMALIA by SOMALI People?? [img]http://www.worldproutassembly.org/somalia-2.jpg[/mg]
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ me too.
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
A Muslim Somali should never have the audacity to tell blacks in the west they are more "authentic" when it comes to being African. Dumb Arab-ass kissers. Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-Ankhamun whats special about Bob marley he is just a singer famous riding whiteman's music channels and its global satanic reach heckk i cannot name one Sudanese as famous him with white people but that doesnt mean Bob marley comes close to glory of Sudanese men like Taharka, Mahdi etc same with Somalians and all their strong rulers and influential scholars but the whiteman told you to look down on other africans that is why you close your eyes haha what a joke you anti-muslim racist
a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
Well said!
You Hypocritical Somali Turd everyone on this forum knows how you look down on West Africans, African Americans and even "Bantu" Somalis...hell you would probably look down on Sudanese people cuase they are too "Bantu" lol.
Like I asked educate us on Somali achievements by Somalis in Somalia..
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ me too.
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
A Muslim Somali should never have the audacity to tell blacks in the west they are more "authentic" when it comes to being African. Dumb Arab-ass kissers.
A Somali should never talk down on other Africans who were enslaved especially when those Africans paved the way for his family to flee to socities that would accept black Africans more openly than in the past. Yet we are supposed to remain silent when the little roach talks down on African Americans. Hell the little roach does'nt realize that many Muslims like Malcolm x a loved and respected African Americans who descend from African Americans slaves.
Yonis is nothing but a Somali Bitch...
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: And What Somali Leaders...LOL...Name a Somali that can compare to the West African Sundjaita or Askia Muhammed...
What special about them? Even the architecture is look pathetic look at this:
West african powers were only good in selling gold not warfare they could only defeating other petty west african countries but when morroco invaded they collapsed like paperhouse so excuse me if i go LOL like you, here are some powerful Somalian leaders
Hard fighters they make us East Africans proud, everybody knows Mahdi al-Sumal even the whiteman that you look up to and measure success and culture on know him excuse me but i wanna go LOL again
quote:As far as Islam goes I don't really give a damn..honestly. Christ was the last prophet plain and simple thats my belief...if you believe in Muhammed so be it. Heck at least I can give credit to Early Islamic societies [/QB]
Islam has respect for Jesus but you wouldnt know because you hate everything Islam
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ you are a muslim yet point finger at blacks in the west "losing" their culture! lol
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Hard fighters they make us East Africans proud,
What the hell are you talking about? Somalia like rest of East Africa was colonised. Ask Yonis about the pictures of his people carrying Italians on their backs; tribal leaders whoring their daughters to Italian generals. Sorry but not even in warfare can you claim some kind of exceptionality. Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ you are a muslim yet point finger at blacks in the west "losing" their culture! lol
Even your White gods live different lives from their ancestors so what? You cannot touch my culture or hestory Islamic/christian/ancient
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Hard fighters they make us East Africans proud,
What the hell are you talking about? Somalia like rest of East Africa was colonised. Ask Yonis about the pictures of his people carrying Italians on their backs; tribal leaders whoring their daughters to Italian generals. Sorry but not even in warfare can you claim some kind of exceptionality.
Your ancestors whored millions of your own women and children in West Africa to Biritsh, Dutch, Spanish Portuguese freely for alcohol and money for hundreds of years and you want to compare with opportanistic tribal leaders of Somalians nothing to do with the true Somalian soldiers fighting non-stop with many different Kufar superpowers haha even in Sudan we had them sharmut leaders grovelers before Mahdi castrated them all and rampaged their British masters.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Jari Ankhum wrote: Where did I look down on Sudanese people?? Show me please, and what makes you think I look down on Africans? Yonis comes here talking **** about West Africans
LOL where exactly did i talk **** about West africans? PLease don't tell me you are referring to some ancient beef i had with someone, coz that's just pathetic even more sad is that i don't even remember your nick let alone me ever discussing anything with you.
quote:and even looks down on Darker as he calls them Bantu Somalis and yet the White man did'nt teach him that
What?!?! Thats their name, "somali-bantu", they chose it themselves, lol at this imbecile. "The white man teach".."the white man teach" bo boo.
Go and pull that white dildo out of your ass as it seems to make you hallucinate on issues, alternatively you could go and jump from a bridge, make sure to dive with that cabbage head on a concrete floor, little frentic bitch.
quote:he is just an ignorant son of a bitch and if he thinks he is going to belittle African Americans and think people will remain silent he is mistaken.
Hehe you are sad man, *hE Is MisTaKen*... i just shivered, really.
Btw be kind to remind me where exactly i belittle african-americans, just like that, out of the blue, unprovoked. You just sound generally angry and quite infantile, go kick some trees in the woods or something and stop riding on random dicks.
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: As for history, i don't feel the therapeutical need to let others achievement define me
Irony is, in your case, that position is another form of therapy! You can't allow their achievements to define yours because your people have very little to begin with!
Comes from the BOY who's people have decided that the midget Haile Sellasie is their god. Lmao
"Dat afrycaan Man partya with why man, must bi God man,"
How does it feel that your God feared Somalis?
Yonis, where are you living? And why are you there?
European colonization and neo-imperialism? There are even more Magrebians in Europe. Not only that, but those population were allowed to enter in much larger numbers and earlier.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Even your White gods
You shouldnt be so quick to talk about white gods, check the ancient churches in Ethiopia, the Jesuits have you worshipping a white god! So much for East African "authenticity". LOL
P.s. Islam is "yours"? LOL Bow down to your Arab god/"prophet" Mohammed bitch!
quote:even in Sudan we had them sharmut leaders grovelers before Mahdi castrated them all and rampaged their British masters.
Sudanese north = Arab dependent; south = Christian/Zionist dependent. Where is the autonomous "authentic" E.Africans you speak of? lol
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ me too.
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: a Jamaican or a African american should never have the audacity of telling others they have no culture or history when theirs was stripped off by the Whiteman and send to the other side of globe and he nurtured new ones for them, atleast Somalians practice a East African culture faithful to their ancestors
A Muslim Somali should never have the audacity to tell blacks in the west they are more "authentic" when it comes to being African. Dumb Arab-ass kissers.
Hehe, "Haile sellasie the jah will arrive on day" , you guys bit the dust from the get go, Haile Sellasie is you god after all, enough said.
Btw how is Marvin Garvey the "Emperor of all the worlds brown and black people" doing?
He looks so insecure, confused, displaced, sleepy and has this treacherous and disloyal look on his eyes, sure he can handle the heavy task of governing "all black and brown people of the world"? LOL
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: He looks so insecure, confused, displaced, sleepy and has this treacherous and disloyal look on his eyes
This coming from a Somali who worships an Arab god called Mohammed and lives in Sweden! Lmao!
I just flushed a Koran down the toilet abeed! lol
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Even your White gods
You shouldnt be so quick to talk about white gods, check the ancient churches in Ethiopia, the Jesuits have you worshipping a white god! So much for East African "authenticity". LOL
P.s. Islam is "yours"? LOL Bow down to your Arab god/"prophet" Mohammed bitch!
quote:even in Sudan we had them sharmut leaders grovelers before Mahdi castrated them all and rampaged their British masters.
Sudanese north = Arab dependent; south = Christian/Zionist dependent. Where is the autonomous "authentic" E.Africans you speak of you speak of? lol
Which one of these two is worse do you think? The Christian worshiping Ethiopian or The Jamaican worshiping the Christian worshiping Ethiopian? LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Even your White gods
You shouldnt be so quick to talk about white gods, check the ancient churches in Ethiopia, the Jesuits have you worshipping a white god! So much for East African "authenticity". LOL
P.s. Islam is "yours"? LOL Bow down to your Arab god/"prophet" Mohammed bitch!
Al Maqurra is a proud chapter for my country are jealous? First you denying rich Somalian culture and history now you want to start on Sudan and Ethiopia too? haha the first non-middleeastern christians and muslims were East Africans, we made it our own!! We don't have white gods! today Sudan is proudly not part of the American Empire unlike you! now go tell me more about Reggea artists riding the channels of American Empire, wow such amazement
Alhamdulilah Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Which one of these two is worse do you think?
An anti-west African Somali living in Sweden who worships a dead Arab having the nerve to point fingers at other blacks "losing" their culture! LOL
quote:
Lmao @ this idiot using artists impression. Go worship the white jesus the Jesuits gave you and also the dead Arab the Mohamadians gave you! Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Omdurman wrote: Your ancestors whored millions of your own women and children in West Africa to Biritsh, Dutch, Spanish Portuguese freely for alcohol and money for hundreds of years and you want to compare with opportanistic tribal leaders of Somalians nothing to do with the true Somalian soldiers fighting non-stop with many different Kufar superpowers haha even in Sudan we had them sharmut leaders grovelers before Mahdi castrated them all and rampaged their British masters.
Omdurman take it easy on him, since you might witness a sensitive prick resenting your comments towards Bogle, popping up from no where like an emotionally exploding slut on PMS, requesting you to compare great leaders from you village with those of West africa. That infantile logic is pretty much epidemic among black-nazi's around here.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Lmao @ this idiot using artists impression. Go worship the white jesus the Jesuits gave you and also the dead Arab the Mohamadians gave you!
That Ethiopian King you call god would spit on you for saying that!
I know picture is computar picture but Sudanese and Chinese engineers including two of my uncles are busy building a new chapter in Sudanese history and in five years time that picture is real, while you are smokin weed and shaking your sister boody doing nothing.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ Yes, thats good. At least Sudan has good leadership, despite pro-Arab stance. Can't say same for Somalia though. Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Omdurman take it easy on him, since you might witness a sensitive prick resenting your comments towards Bogle, popping up from no where like an almost emotionally exploding slut on PMS, requesting you to compare great leaders from you village with those of West africa. That infantile logic is pretty much epidemic among black-nazi's around here.
Yes i immediate feel bad saying those words but nobody comes to your defense because your muslim now they have reveal true nature that they first were hiding. I looked at all your posts and don't see hate towards them, only different opinions but they attack attack like crazy with silly stupid comparisons based on how many white people know this or how many do that very silly. Give me the unknown Bisharin culture of desert or a week staying with Masai people anyday over this explotational music and other mainstream crap they call imprassive culture.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I looked at all your posts and don't see hate towards them,
LOL @ this newbie!
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: I looked at all your posts and don't see hate towards them,
LOL @ this newbie!
You show quotes then! this website there is no 'searching' i can only look at recent posts and i see nothing hatred so you show me unprovokked hatred from him towards you and i will believe you
but your a racist making excuses no different from white racists always excuses to look down on others never truth
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Lmao @ this idiot using artists impression. Go worship the white jesus the Jesuits gave you and also the dead Arab the Mohamadians gave you!
That Ethiopian King you call god would spit on you for saying that!
I know picture is computar picture but Sudanese and Chinese engineers including two of my uncles are busy building a new chapter in Sudanese history and in five years time that picture is real, while you are smokin weed and shaking your sister boody doing nothing.
I actually made a thread a year ago named " Sudan city project"
Yes, and the point was well taken: its about the progress Sudan is making, not Somalia! LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Lmao @ this idiot using artists impression. Go worship the white jesus the Jesuits gave you and also the dead Arab the Mohamadians gave you!
That Ethiopian King you call god would spit on you for saying that!
I know picture is computar picture but Sudanese and Chinese engineers including two of my uncles are busy building a new chapter in Sudanese history and in five years time that picture is real, while you are smokin weed and shaking your sister boody doing nothing.
I actually made a thread a year ago named " Sudan city project"
Shukran Akhi! lovely pictures, the west don't like this progress because they have same mindset as Bogle very hatred of Muslim societies and loving when there is misery in them. The west they will send billions of dollars to anybody willing to stop progress in Sudan but we are partners of mega-country China and create our own tanks and weapons that is why they chicken or else we would be like Iraq and our wealth stolen.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Omdurman take it easy on him, since you might witness a sensitive prick resenting your comments towards Bogle, popping up from no where like an almost emotionally exploding slut on PMS, requesting you to compare great leaders from you village with those of West africa. That infantile logic is pretty much epidemic among black-nazi's around here.
Yes i immediate feel bad saying those words but nobody comes to your defense because your muslim now they have reveal true nature that they first were hiding. I looked at all your posts and don't see hate towards them, only different opinions but they attack attack like crazy with silly stupid comparisons based on how many white people know this or how many do that very silly. Give me the unknown Bisharin culture of desert or a week staying with Masai people anyday over this explotational music and other mainstream crap they call imprassive culture.
Well what can i say, that's their mentality. One throws a cheap jab at you and when you respond the next pop up from no where with the most inane and retarded accusations meanwhile throwing insults left and right at the same time accusing you of hatred and lists what you're supposedly guilty of. Lol Like a wonded snake they wait in ambush for the right moment to spit their venom. Something is deeply out of order upstairs, if you understand what i mean.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: the west don't like this progress because they have same mindset as Bogle very hatred of Muslim societies and loving when there is misery in them. The west they will send billions of dollars to anybody willing to stop progress in Sudan but we are partners of mega-country China and create our own tanks and weapons that is why they chicken or else we would be like Iraq and our wealth stolen.
^ if their opposition to progress in Sudan had to do with "hatred of Muslim societies" and wanting to see misery in them why do they have such close ties to Gulf States that are more developed than Sudan? Your logic is unsound my Muslim friend.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Omdurman take it easy on him, since you might witness a sensitive prick resenting your comments towards Bogle, popping up from no where like an almost emotionally exploding slut on PMS, requesting you to compare great leaders from you village with those of West africa. That infantile logic is pretty much epidemic among black-nazi's around here.
Yes i immediate feel bad saying those words but nobody comes to your defense because your muslim now they have reveal true nature that they first were hiding. I looked at all your posts and don't see hate towards them, only different opinions but they attack attack like crazy with silly stupid comparisons based on how many white people know this or how many do that very silly. Give me the unknown Bisharin culture of desert or a week staying with Masai people anyday over this explotational music and other mainstream crap they call imprassive culture.
Well what can i say, that's their mentality. One throws a cheap jab at you and when you respond the next pop up from no where with the most inane and retarded accusations meanwhile throwing insults left and right at the same time accusing you of hatred and lists what you're supposedly guilty of. Lol Like a wonded snake they wait in ambush for the right moment to spit their venom. Something is deeply out of order upstairs, if you understand what i mean.
Yes very sick behaviour they come to Egyptian forum and insult the religion practiced by majority of this country, just amazing
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ because its NOT Egyptian...duh! lol
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: the west don't like this progress because they have same mindset as Bogle very hatred of Muslim societies and loving when there is misery in them. The west they will send billions of dollars to anybody willing to stop progress in Sudan but we are partners of mega-country China and create our own tanks and weapons that is why they chicken or else we would be like Iraq and our wealth stolen.
^ if their opposition to progress in Sudan had to do with "hatred of Muslim societies" and wanting to see misery in them why do they have such close ties to Gulf States that are more developed than Sudan? Your logic is unsound my Muslim friend.
Gulf states are the petrol stations of the American Empire from where they refuel and oppress millions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen
Our customer is a sleeping giant, we feed the dragon as he grows bigger and stronger and insha-allah then he burns the American Empire
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
and you are proud to be petrol station for China. LOL How stupid can you be to think China's imperialism would be any different from the west's.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
We make billions with China if we sold with West we would make tiny millions and our country would not see development ask our Chadian brothers or Nigeria.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:then he burns the American Empire
LOL Misguided youth. China cannot afford to "burn" the west, despite local market they still need America and western Europe (greater America).
quote:ask our Chadian brothers or Nigeria.
The difference in development between Sudan and Nigeria has to do with leadership not money from trade. Sudan now has good leadership Nigeria never had any.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
America want to have its cake and eat it too no they eat the cakes of other countries aswell but China's growing influence will empower these countries to make their cakes as hot as possible and then America will burn its hands haha
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: And What Somali Leaders...LOL...Name a Somali that can compare to the West African Sundjaita or Askia Muhammed...
What special about them? Even the architecture is look pathetic look at this:
West african powers were only good in selling gold not warfare they could only defeating other petty west african countries but when morroco invaded they collapsed like paperhouse so excuse me if i go LOL like you, here are some powerful Somalian leaders
Hard fighters they make us East Africans proud, everybody knows Mahdi al-Sumal even the whiteman that you look up to and measure success and culture on know him excuse me but i wanna go LOL again
quote:As far as Islam goes I don't really give a damn..honestly. Christ was the last prophet plain and simple thats my belief...if you believe in Muhammed so be it. Heck at least I can give credit to Early Islamic societies
Islam has respect for Jesus but you wouldnt know because you hate everything Islam [/QB]
Stupid maybe if you had the slightest idea of West African History you would know West Africans built out of Stone as well as stucco.
The houses of Timbuktu are huts made of clay-covered wattles with thatched roofs. In the center of the city is a temple built of stone and mortar, built by an architect named Granata, (2) and in addition there is a large palace, constructed by the same architect, where the king lives. The shops of the artisans, the merchants, and especially weavers of cotton cloth are very numerous. Fabrics are also imported from Europe to Timbuktu, borne by Berber merchants. (3)
West Africans did not have strong Warfare...LMAO. God Damn you are fucking stupid...First off Morocco invaded using a new Warfare the GUN Muskets. West Africans had powerful Armies and Navies...They established a nice size of Land... Lets not forget the West African Almoravid Dynasty that defeated the Spanish Christians and Muslims.. More of African Armies here:http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000565 West Africans did build large structures ignorant fool... Camp subjects include a rough log pallisade, a brush boma, and a herd of cattle. BUA subjects could span from a simple African hut or village to elaborate mud-walled cities. The picture at right is a samolo, or mud-brick house with thatched roof found in Burkina Faso. Such a building could contain 20 or more rooms, including separate sleeping chambers for multiple wives.
More on W. Africans Armies.. I have assumed that Ghana was less reliant on cavalry, since they would not yet have access to a large supply of Arab horses. (Or maybe they did. As with just about everything in West African history, there is some dispute about this.) I have replaced some of the bow with psiloi, since the dense formations of bow really only seem to be appropriate for later eras.
The Malian army is, if anything, more dependent upon cavalry than the later forces. This is based mostly on Arabic chronicles and descriptions in the West African epics, which might be biased towards the horse-riding noblemen.
The Tuaregs acted both as raiders and as mercenaries for the Sahel region. At one point, Songhai hired two entire Tuareg armies to launch raids against Morocco.
The Mossi were described by one Malian to an Egyptian acquaintance as "The Tartars of Africa" because of their heavy use of archery and raiding. They also excelled in mounted combat by the 15th century. Whether these represent a large nation to the south of Mali is debatable. The term "Mossi" might be a Malian catch-all term meaning "southern barbarians." Or the name might have been applied indescriminately by Arabic commentators. Or perhaps relatives of the modern Mossi people really did establish a small empire to the south of the Sahel.
The Senegambia list covers a number of people of the western coastal region. The region is defined by the Senegal and Gambia river deltas. Ghana, then Mali, and then Morocco dominated the region, but the people here were occasionally able to exercise some independence when these empires were weak or still growing.
The Hausa States and Kanem-Bornu dominated the east Sahel and the area around Lake Chad, respectively. They were never completely submerged into Mali or Songhai, and remained independent.Even into the nineteenth century, European exploreres were impressed by the large number of well-armed horsemen the Hausa could muster. Both the Hausa States and Kanem-Bornu survived in some form until Colonial times. Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Jari Ankhum wrote: \
Go and pull that white dildo out of your ass
LMAO... Wait Dogg did'nt you write..
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: LOL..For Real and its funny his Somali ass sure loves Sweden...Why not go back to that Sh@t hole of a Non existant History, Illiterate backwater Somalia and go an kiss his Arab Prophet's(Piss be Upon Him)Ass..
I have no problems with 'white civilization', i like it very much and i will run after it where ever it goes. Does it bother you?
Faggot ass...Bitch go fucking bow down to you Arab God...After sucking somw White Swedish Dick you little bitch...
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Jari-ankhamun I'm not impressed at all Dongola alone has more beautiful architecture than those sand-stick houses or paper forts you are showing and they are still there unlike these cartoon drawings of yours or structures rebuild in 20th century and whats so special about large chunk of land if there is nobody there?
Berbers, Tuaregs are not your ancestors so dont claim them, now this superriority complex of yours is even more funnier
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Jari Ankhum, seriously, why do you take these kids seriously?
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Bitch I have HUGE respect for East Africa...Show me where I said anything about East Africa that would imply a insult. Wait..OMG East coast West Coast beef...LOL..Bitch that **** is like 10 yrs old. Hiphop is dead now and its funny you know about it..us West African decended American Culture reacheas all over the world. Wish I could say the same for Somalia... LMAO...No No wonder you ran the **** out of Somalia... No Wonder you will Chase White Civilization where ever it goes....LMAO... Run Boy Run....LMAO...
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Pure Fake superiority complex anti-Islamic fool that guy but who holds on to Islamic Kingdoms of west africa. those people would spit on him if hear him talk like that, one Sudanese city like Dongola is enough to humble him and notice that he has to comb entire West Africa in post
let me go LOL what if we did the same? Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea haha so unfair Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
^ Nice pants Yonis. Was this picture "bearable" for you? lol
The province of Dongola was part of the Makuria kingdom, which later became part of Egypt after Muhammad Ali Pasha ordered for the invasion and occupation of Sudan in 1820 after which it was designated as a seat of a pasha. - Wikipedia
^ strong fighting Sudanese! lol
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Jari-ankhamun I'm not impressed at all Dongola alone has more beautiful architecture than those sand-stick houses or paper forts you are showing and they are still there unlike these cartoon drawings of yours or structures rebuild in 20th century and whats so special about large chunk of land if there is nobody there?
Berbers, Tuaregs are not your ancestors so dont claim them, now this superriority complex of yours is even more funnier
Once Again read the post West African built out of stone, just as Ethiopians in Dongolia. Also please don't discuss Architecture with me boy, The first rule of Architecture besides location is MATERIALS....Stucco and Mud are Native Materials to the location of West Africa...do a little research.
Also by the way you do realize the Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem before Mecca?? LMAO...I wonder why???LOL
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Jari Ankhum, seriously, why do you take these kids seriously?
Its funny you know, In one post Yonis talks about being on the white mans ball..but earlier swore with all his heart to "Chase White Civilization" where ever it goes. WOW...How F-ing pathetic man...Im def. gonna save that one to my computer..LOL.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: the Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem before Mecca??
LOL these so-called "authentic" Africans and their foregin religious customs! One is a Zionist state while other (Mecca) a US client state! Oh the confusion! lol
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Pure Fake superiority complex anti-Islamic fool that guy but who holds on to Islamic Kingdoms of west africa. those people would spit on him if hear him talk like that, one Sudanese city like Dongola is enough to humble him and notice that he has to comb entire West Africa in post
let me go LOL what if we did the same? Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea haha so unfair
I like how you and Yonis wan't to turn this into a West v East African argument...Nice try kid...nice try. Also what the f-ck does Islam have to do with W. African militaries...they predated Islam and were indiginous...Sorry kid. Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Yonis beware of the superior Black americans:
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Jari anknamun: Run Boy Run....LMAO..
^^ Trust me those mofos are not to play with, they might look tawny but they are lethal, sneaky and effective bastards. Just last year they managed to chase the Ethiopian army (one of the biggest in africa) with it's tail between it's legs out of their play ground with all US support, they kicked them out. They wouuld have a field day on your ass, gangsta talk and bad boy manners won't cut it, they woul eternally hide you beneath the earth.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Yonisboy! Why do you look to a Zionist state (Jerusalem) and a US client state (SA, Mecca) to pray to yet you supposed to be this authentic African? What, Somalia not good enough to look to and pray? LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: OMG this guy is really pathetic!
Hey you, no one here is interested in flexing muscles., he was just responding to your post, no need to pull out your whole arsenal.
Are you trying to take the whole hip-hop West coast vs East coast beef to a whole new level?
Be kind to resize your images coz they are making this thread unbearable to read.
Pure Fake superiority complex anti-Islamic fool that guy but who holds on to Islamic Kingdoms of west africa. those people would spit on him if hear him talk like that, one Sudanese city like Dongola is enough to humble him and notice that he has to comb entire West Africa in post
let me go LOL what if we did the same? Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea haha so unfair
I like how you and Yonis wan't to turn this into a West v East African argument...Nice try kid...nice try. Also what the f-ck does Islam have to do with W. African militaries...they predated Islam and were indiginous...Sorry kid.
Your are a dirty coward who takes pleasure in other people misfortune, and dont even bother you would never win! Sudan's history trumps you but i know you want to insult me and my background real badly because i come to the defense of a brotherly people of Sudan but you can't because tomorrow if white racist comes and attacks you then you will have to use my glorious history to fight him because you have nothing for yourself, pathetic people like you have the nerve call themselfes pan Africa when they spew clear white racist hatred to an African group and dont give me crap of Yonis's postingstyle because the venom inside you is much deeper and beyond him, sick person!
All African muslims and christians have seen the hatred inside you people and how you see them, you have more enemies now than ever
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ if you are proud of your "glorious" history why do you look to US client state and pray? lol
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Yonisboy! Why do you look to a Zionist state and a US client state to pray to yet you supposed to be this authentic African? What, Somalia not good enough to look to and pray? LOL
Oh please, comming from some quire singing Mofo who idolizes the images of a Nordic Messia and an Ethiopian god who became god for the sole reason that he was invited to European royal parties. lol
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
How did a genetics thread get turned into a 4-way f!ck fest between Jamaicans,Americans,Somilians, and Sudanese?... Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: who idolizes the images of a Nordic Messia
But I have never even been to the rock churches in Lalibella! lol
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: who idolizes the images of a Nordic Messia
But I have never even been to the rock churches in Lalibella! lol
I'm not a Christian nor Ethiopian, Isn't that the church of your lord? You really have some audacity.
A simple rule of logic could look like this; if "Y" worships "X" and "F" worships "Y" then it makes no sense when "F" tries to belittle "X" since that's the religion of it's lord "Y". Capisce Jahist? lol
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: who idolizes the images of a Nordic Messia
But I have never even been to the rock churches in Lalibella! lol
I'm not a Christian nor Ethiopian, Isn't that the church of your lord? You really have some audacity.
A simple rule of logic could look like this; if "Y" worships "X" and "F" worships "Y" then it makes no sense when "F" tries to belittle "X" since that's the religion of it's lord "Y". Capisce Jahist? lol
Lol good one Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:you will have to use my glorious history to fight him
Just as how you use glorious stone in US client state to fight USA! What contradiction! You really have some audacity! You are so young and confused you allow non Sudanese pro-US Saudi Sheiks to convince you to hold superstitious beliefs in black stone housed in said US client state, while they fill their pockets with US dollars and play with their toy race cars. "Religion is the opium of the people"! LOL
Why don't you worship stones in Sudan instead, what, Sudanese stones not good enough to worship? Stones in Sudan are of inferior nature to stones in US client state? And you want US to "burn". But if this happens wont your stone burn too?! Omdurman you make no sense! lol
Omdurman using his glorious Sudanese history!
quote:A simple rule of logic could look like this; if "Y" worships "X" and "F" worships "Y" then it makes no sense when "F" tries to belittle "X" since that's the religion of it's lord "Y". Capisce Jahist? lol
Oh shut up primitive Mohamedian, you wouldnt know a rastafarian if you saw one.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Jari anknamun: Run Boy Run....LMAO..
^^ Trust me those mofos are not to play with, they might look tawny but they are lethal, sneaky and effective bastards. Just last year they managed to chase the Ethiopian army (one of the biggest in africa) with it's tail between it's legs out of their play ground with all US support, they kicked them out. They wouuld have a field day on your ass, gangsta talk and bad boy manners won't cut it, they woul eternally hide you beneath the earth.
Check this out...
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: LOL..For Real and its funny his Somali ass sure loves Sweden...Why not go back to that Sh@t hole of a Non existant History, Illiterate backwater Somalia and go an kiss his Arab Prophet's(Piss be Upon Him)Ass..
I have no problems with 'white civilization', i like it very much and i will run after it where ever it goes. Does it bother you?
One Hitter Quitter..LMAO.. LOL...So go do as you advised earlier and pull that White Dildo out of you ass boy...and Keep running after the White Man...Run Boy Run...
Don't forget to pray to you rock...but please explain why the Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem instead of Mecca?? I know the answer is pretty F-ing pathetic but please enlighten us on your Arab Religion...LOL??
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ and while you're at it explain why you don't think stones in Sudan, with it's "glorious" history, are worthy of your worship.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
quote:you will have to use my glorious history to fight him
Just as how you use glorious stone in US client state to fight USA! What contradiction! You really have some audacity! You are so young and confused you allow non Sudanese pro-US Saudi Sheiks to convince you to hold superstitious beliefs in black stone housed in said US client state, while they fill their pockets with US dollars and play with their toy race cars. "Religion is the opium of the people"! LOL
Why don't you worship stones in Sudan instead, what, Sudanese stones not good enough to worship? Stones in Sudan are of inferior nature to stones in US client state? And you want US to "burn". But if this happens wont your stone burn too?! Omdurman you make no sense! lol
Omdurman using his glorious Sudanese history!
quote:A simple rule of logic could look like this; if "Y" worships "X" and "F" worships "Y" then it makes no sense when "F" tries to belittle "X" since that's the religion of it's lord "Y". Capisce Jahist? lol
Oh shut up primitive Mohamedian, you wouldnt know a rastafarian if you saw one.
LOL..and the funny part is that the guy wants the U.S to burn but welcoms the Japs and other Asian invaders as if they give a F-ck about Sudan or its people. He is actually bragging about that like the Japs and Chinese wont do his ignorant Sudanese ass like they do OTHER Asians who are close Culturally and Physically to them.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A196292
LOL...You know the thing I admire about the Chinese that unlike the Black and White man is they really Don't give a sh@t...They Don't Like Islam and they are not afraid to show it...lol.
Can't wait to see Sudan after the Chinese finish their Perfectly planned Invasion...Won't be No praying towards Mecca...LOL..
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: bla bla bla
Your white master still have nightmares of Mahdi of Sudan
Thank god for Islam, what racists think of it is pointless
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
Yes yes! Good, a Sudanese structure! So why do you worship stone in US client state??! Why do you want US to burn when they PROTECT your mysterious stone?! Do you know who US loving Saudi Sheiks - who allow your dumbass to come in and worship stone to begin with - sleep with? Islam or US-rael? Guess Umbaman, guess? LOL You are much too young to know whats going on.
Answer please:
Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious histroy?! Why look to US client state?!
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: LOL..and the funny part is that the guy wants the U.S to burn but welcoms the Japs and other Asian invaders as if they give a F-ck about Sudan or its people.
What does a Black american fool like you know about real politiks? Nobody is your friends everyone has interests, our interests are secured now economy booming skyhigh
but again what would you know? Even Barack Obama was not a African American but Kenyan descent because you people can't produce real leaders besides marching in the streets
quote:Can't wait to see Sudan after the Chinese finish their Perfectly planned Invasion...Won't be No praying towards Mecca...LOL..
You wish bad things for Sudan but this will never happen, Sudan the biggest country of Africa will unleash all it's potential and you can only cry to white man how much he hates you and keeps you down bla bla we have a country you don't!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ yes more African cities, yet African go OUTSIDE to US client state to worship?! So who controlls their minds in the end? Why Omdurman, why do you go to US client state to worhsip a stone, a stone???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?! Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
Ka'aba is older than the Kingdom of Saud or US so your post is pure silly crap, why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?! Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: LOL..and the funny part is that the guy wants the U.S to burn but welcoms the Japs and other Asian invaders as if they give a F-ck about Sudan or its people.
What does a Black american fool like you know about real politiks? Nobody is your friends everyone has interests, our interests are secured now economy booming skyhigh
but again what would you know? Even Barack Obama was not a African American but Kenyan descent because you people can't produce real leaders besides marching in the streets
quote:Can't wait to see Sudan after the Chinese finish their Perfectly planned Invasion...Won't be No praying towards Mecca...LOL..
You wish bad things for Sudan but this will never happen, Sudan the biggest country of Africa will unleash all it's potential and you can only cry to white man how much he hates you and keeps you down bla bla we have a country you don't!
God Kid you sound like a jealous little kid...We can't produce leaders...LOL.. Name One Sudanese, Ethiopian or any non African American that has changes Western Society more than this man... Name One Western Muslim African, Arab, European etc. More Famous or that changed the veiw of Islam in the West more than this man... Name another Muslim that can compare to this man..
Its sad you don't pay homage to the people that payed the price for you to run to Western Civilization and be accepted as an equal to the dominant culture..LOL.
Obama is a Jewish Kazar Loving House Negro that is why he won...America sees him as the Safe Nigga...lol
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Come on man you know its hard for them to use their brains..LOL..I mean Im still waiting for Yonis to inform us why the Muslims Face Jerusalem instead of Mecca and why Muhammed-Piss be upon him-changed the "Holy City(LOL) to Mecca...After that he can explain the Creasant and Star..and its origins in Persian Mythology...LOL...
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: [QB] ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
It makes no sense its like saying why Greeks are Christians and not worshipping Zeus? Civilizations evolve but what would you know? You never had a glorious civilization as grand as Ancient Sudan and Greece so be more humble friend you look dumb
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Yeh but difference is Greek Christians worship a white god, you an Arab. Omdurman, think, its hard for you butt try, you are proud Sudanese, love your glorious history, hate America wants it to burn. Yet you worship a stone in US client state because nonSudanese told you it has "powers"...Ouuuuu! Why do you allow others to control you thinking? You have free will. Break free from Zionist brainwashing, Saudi house loves USA (and their goodies) will fight to defend it from burning, and kill your African ass in heart beat to defend it; they look down on your abeed ass and laugh at you worshiping a pagan stone, a stone Omdurman, a stone! LOL
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: God Kid you sound like a jealous little kid...We can't produce leaders...LOL.. Name One Sudanese, Ethiopian or any non African American that has changes Western Society more than this man...
Haha if he had taken a black army and forced the white people to treat him equal then i would have real respect for him but he just talked talked talked then got shot and then white man felt sorry and change his rules
Since you love Western society so much but hate Islam this article must be too much for you then
read and weep
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: [QB] ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
It makes no sense its like saying why Greeks are Christians and not worshipping Zeus? Civilizations evolve but what would you know? You never had a glorious civilization as grand as Ancient Sudan and Greece so be more humble friend you look dumb
Answer the F-ing question Kid...Why The F-ck are you traveling to Mecca to Worship a ROCK(LOL) instead of Worshipping one in Sudan with all those Glorious Temples in Dongolia you were bragging about..Why Whats up explain to us Muslim???
Also Im still waiting to know why Muslims used to PRAY TOWARD JERUSALEMand Why Muhammed changed the original holy city to Mecca...Please Teach me about Islam...Im interested to know these things...LOL
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Answer the F-ing question Kid...Why The F-ck are you traveling to Mecca to Worship a ROCK(LOL) instead of Worshipping one in Sudan with all those Glorious Temples in Dongolia you were bragging about..
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA Glorious Dongolia not good enough!
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Yeh but difference is Greek Christians worship a white god, you an Arab.
This part alone disqualifies you from being a sane and intelligent person when you dont even know Prophet Muhammad (saw) is only one prophet of many including Jesus and Moses and nowhere in the Quran does it say God is a Arab what a fool you are
i have giving you people true ass kicking today! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
LOL Mohamed is a quasi-god of Muslims. Everyone knows that. You people are as hypocritical as the Jews, spoke out against idols yet couldn't resist worshiping one: you people a dead "prophet" and pagan stone, them an ark, and a wall. lol
ANSWER
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: God Kid you sound like a jealous little kid...We can't produce leaders...LOL.. Name One Sudanese, Ethiopian or any non African American that has changes Western Society more than this man...
Haha if he had taken a black army and forced the white people to treat him equal then i would have real respect for him but he just talked talked talked then got shot and then white man felt sorry and change his rules
Since you love Western society so much but hate Islam this article must be too much for you then
Yawn...can't find ONE Modern day Muslim that Changed Western Society more than us no Leaders producing African Americans..LOL..I will paitently wait but until then..
Also please, Islam did NOTHING innovative really. Yeah I know I know the Modern idea of the University and Hospital were established and yeah the Musims spread the culture of learning. Guess what it WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED by The Greeks and in some epxamples by the Romans WHO GOT IT FROM THE EGYPTIANS. The great knowledge of the Arabs came AFTER they captured Alexandria and It Was the Egyptians, Jews, Syrians, Byzantines etc. the created, translated and spread the knowledge within Islamic socities...So in other words this could have happened in ANY other society...The Muslims were the first to establish Highly literate socities which is very innovative but would have happened enventually...
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Guess what it WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED by The Greeks and in some epxamples by the Romans WHO GOT IT FROM THE EGYPTIANS.
LOL exactly! the dumb Mohamedian didn't even realise that!
Arab man using glorious Dongolia to fight white man!
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Come on man you know its hard for them to use their brains..LOL..I mean Im still waiting for Yonis to inform us why the Muslims Face Jerusalem instead of Mecca and why Muhammed-Piss be upon him-changed the "Holy City(LOL) to Mecca...After that he can explain the Creasant and Star..and its origins in Persian Mythology...LOL...
Isn't that Sahelian leader you mentioned before a muslim? You couldn't find another example than a man who adhered to a religion you so much detest. You are so easy man. Btw i noticed you posted Malcolm X moments ago, what was his religion if i may ask?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
What about the stones in Somalia Yonis? They not good enough?
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Lol at you and this other Black american clown with no culture or history comparable to Sudan questioning the glory of my history. If we become Buddhists tommorow Sudan's history will still be as grand as it is today now we are muslims and why should i answer 'why i am a muslim praying to Makkah' to an Anti-islamic fool like you? Didn't you flush a Quran through the toilet what a maggot you are.
and keep diverting with this silly question it won't hide how pathetic your superiority complex really is to anyone here Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: they look down on your abeed ass and laugh at you worshiping a pagan stone, a stone Omdurman, a stone! LOL
^This is what you are to them Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:What about the stones in Somalia Yonis? They not good enough?
You sound like a broken record, move on!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: questioning the glory of my history
No Mohamedian, the question is:
WHY IF SUDAN HAS GLORIOUS GRAND HISTORY YOU PRAY TO A F!CKIN STONE IN A CORRUPT US CLIENT STATE? WHY NOT PRAY TO STONES IN GLORIOUS SUDANESE CITY OF DONGOLIA? WHY? WHY? CAN'T YOU ANSWER???
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^This is what you are Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Why i'm i that? Because a scotish message board freak say's so?
That's the difference in mentality between me and you, you have no problems accepting what other people tell you to be. Just Keep your decadent mentality close to home.
Edit: see it's MOM
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Come on man you know its hard for them to use their brains..LOL..I mean Im still waiting for Yonis to inform us why the Muslims Face Jerusalem instead of Mecca and why Muhammed-Piss be upon him-changed the "Holy City(LOL) to Mecca...After that he can explain the Creasant and Star..and its origins in Persian Mythology...LOL...
Isn't that Sahelian leader you mentioned before a muslim? You couldn't find another example than a man who adhered to a religion you so much detest. You are so easy man. Btw i noticed you posted Malcolm X moments ago, what was his religion if i may ask?
LOL, Dude please, Islam is a religion nothing more nothing less. West Africa had GREAT Millitary Leaders BEFORE Islam..Sunjaita is one of many Examples. Also I posted Malcolm x becuase he is African American...the people you despise so much and becuase the Sudanese kid said we had no Leaders...so please do your Muslim friend a favor and answer the question...Name one Modern Day Muslim that has changed the veiw or popularized Islam more tham Malcolm x...an AFRICAN AMERICA decendant of Slaves...You African Musilims are Free and still retain your African Culture...so please Name one MUSLIM...
Also are you going to explain why Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem and why Muhammed changed it to Mecca??
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: You sound like a broken record, move on!
Lets leave this thread brother we teached them a good lesson, all theyre real hatred is now in the open and there masks revealed.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ you fools got STONED out! lol
WHY IF SUDAN HAS GLORIOUS GRAND HISTORY YOU PRAY TO A F!CKIN STONE IN A CORRUPT US CLIENT STATE? WHY NOT PRAY TO STONES IN GLORIOUS SUDANESE CITY OF DONGOLIA? WHY? WHY? CAN'T YOU ANSWER???
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [qb] ^This is what you are Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Why i'm i that? Because a scotish message board freak say's so?
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean? Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
You're that because that's exactly what you're called by Arabs, yet you praise them.
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ you fools got STONED out! lol
When you and your friends smoke so much weed around us ofcourse some of it will effect us Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: You sound like a broken record, move on!
Lets leave this thread brother we teached them a good lesson, all theyre real hatred is now in the open and there masks revealed.
Aww Man...Darn it...I REALLY REALLY wanted to learn something about Islam...Come on man Ive been waiting for hours to know why The Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem??...and Why Muhammed Changed the Original Holy city to Mecca I mean is it not a Law in Islam to face Mecca?? That is REALLY strange becuase HOW can you have TWO Holy cities...What if I convert and instead decide to pray toward Jerusalem?? I should be O.K right I mean IT WAS the ORIGINAL HOLY CITY OF ISLAM Right...Please Explain...LMAO...LOLOLOLOL
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ you fools got STONED out! lol
When you and your friends smoke so much weed around us ofcourse some of it will effect us
It's not the weed man, its nausea from circling a freakin stone! lol
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Come on man you know its hard for them to use their brains..LOL..I mean Im still waiting for Yonis to inform us why the Muslims Face Jerusalem instead of Mecca and why Muhammed-Piss be upon him-changed the "Holy City(LOL) to Mecca...After that he can explain the Creasant and Star..and its origins in Persian Mythology...LOL...
Isn't that Sahelian leader you mentioned before a muslim? You couldn't find another example than a man who adhered to a religion you so much detest. You are so easy man. Btw i noticed you posted Malcolm X moments ago, what was his religion if i may ask?
LOL, Dude please, Islam is a religion nothing more nothing less. West Africa had GREAT Millitary Leaders BEFORE Islam..Sunjaita is one of many Examples. Also I posted Malcolm x becuase he is African American...the people you despise so much and becuase the Sudanese kid said we had no Leaders...so please do your Muslim friend a favor and answer the question...Name one Modern Day Muslim that has changed the veiw or popularized Islam more tham Malcolm x...an AFRICAN AMERICA decendant of Slaves...You African Musilims are Free and still retain your African Culture...so please Name one MUSLIM...
Also are you going to explain why Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem and why Muhammed changed it to Mecca??
So your leader was a Muslim, enough said!
Next time cut down on the hypocracy and save us time.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: You sound like a broken record, move on!
Lets leave this thread brother we teached them a good lesson, all theyre real hatred is now in the open and there masks revealed.
Yeah, but i wan't to see more of how jari dumb boy waving his muslim heroes while spitting on islam with his other half of his splited tounge. Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: ^ so-called "Ka aba" is old pagan stone, it's just a stone Omdurman, a stone. But why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER?!
quote:why do you worship a man who was the same age as my grandfather and who said himself he is not god? You talk bad about Ethiopia but that was his country fool!
I am not a rastafarian, dummy. lol
Now answer:
Why you worship it, in US client state???? Why not worship stones in Sudan if it has glorious history?!
Come on man you know its hard for them to use their brains..LOL..I mean Im still waiting for Yonis to inform us why the Muslims Face Jerusalem instead of Mecca and why Muhammed-Piss be upon him-changed the "Holy City(LOL) to Mecca...After that he can explain the Creasant and Star..and its origins in Persian Mythology...LOL...
Isn't that Sahelian leader you mentioned before a muslim? You couldn't find another example than a man who adhered to a religion you so much detest. You are so easy man. Btw i noticed you posted Malcolm X moments ago, what was his religion if i may ask?
LOL, Dude please, Islam is a religion nothing more nothing less. West Africa had GREAT Millitary Leaders BEFORE Islam..Sunjaita is one of many Examples. Also I posted Malcolm x becuase he is African American...the people you despise so much and becuase the Sudanese kid said we had no Leaders...so please do your Muslim friend a favor and answer the question...Name one Modern Day Muslim that has changed the veiw or popularized Islam more tham Malcolm x...an AFRICAN AMERICA decendant of Slaves...You African Musilims are Free and still retain your African Culture...so please Name one MUSLIM...
Also are you going to explain why Muslims used to pray toward Jerusalem and why Muhammed changed it to Mecca??
So your leader was a Muslim, enough said!
Next time cut down on the hypocracy and save us time.
Maybe you should learn to read dummy, The Sudanese kid said African Americans had no leaders...I provided two Leaders that changed Western Civilization One Christian one Muslim. Also according to you Malcolm is less of a person than an African Muslim becuase he was stripped of His African Identity and his forefathers were forced to come here while you and your people had a choice. I know its hard Somali roach but in Grammar we have a thing called the Subject...The Subject is that African Americans despite being enslaved have done more than any other group of African for blacks in the west so maybe you should shut the **** up when you talk **** about us you little Bitch becuase Malcom x would spit on your ass the way you talk down on Black people like the Bantu Somalies and Ass kiss White people but claim how more African you are.
Malcolm was a smart man, Islam did not give him some super powers he was born with it, to suggest such is pathetic. MLK a Christian did the same thing and MORE as Malcolm..so Religion is utterly pointless...
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [qb] ^This is what you are Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Why i'm i that? Because a scotish message board freak say's so?
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean? Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
You're that because that's exactly what you're called by Arabs, yet you praise them.
You seem to know more on events in my life than i do, When was i called that by arabs?
First of all i don't praise any arabs, get that fact straight. Secondly i don't care who are what is associated with this term abeed, i personally have never been called that and frankly i see no reason why anyone would want to call me an abeed since i'm slave to no one and neither were my parents, my grand parents and so forth. I you see yourself as such "because that's what....blala", then be my guest.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:You seem to know more on events in my life than i do, When was i called that by arabs?
First of all i don't praise any arabs, get that fact straight. Secondly i don't care who are what is associated with this term abeed, i personally have never been called that and frankly i see no reason why anyone would want to call me an abeed since i'm slave to no one and neither were my parents, my grand parents and so forth. I you see yourself as such "because that's what....blala", then be my guest.
^ yet your dumbass will point fingers at blacks in the west as not having culture when you pray to a stone all the way over in a US client state because Arabs tell you it has "powers". That, sir, is what we call mental slavery. LOL
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
I've never been to Saudi arabia, Fail!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Lmao @ at this kid!
Who f!ck said anything about your dumb vagabond ass going to Mecca? You worship an Arab and a pagan stone because Arabs told you to. You have no culture of your own, not to mention nation. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Refresher in the midst of the bunch of topics that dominates this section.
Looking at the turn this thread itself has made, scratch out the above.
Indeed as you once mentioned it is a daunting task to keep a thread on topic in this section of the forum (without moderation).
Yeap; it has become a prime example of what I said it was not earlier. I thought it was funny how some thought they were actually going to have a seriousscientific debate with some bible thumper.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [qb] ^This is what you are Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Why i'm i that? Because a scotish message board freak say's so?
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean? Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
You're that because that's exactly what you're called by Arabs, yet you praise them.
You seem to know more on events in my life than i do, When was i called that by arabs?
First of all i don't praise any arabs, get that fact straight. Secondly i don't care who are what is associated with this term abeed, i personally have never been called that and frankly i see no reason why anyone would want to call me an abeed since i'm slave to no one and neither were my parents, my grand parents and so forth. I you see yourself as such "because that's what....blala", then be my guest.
Hey Yonis you missed the actual questions....not that it matters really as I know you missed them on purpose!
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean?
Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
West Africa had GREAT Millitary Leaders BEFORE Islam..
Indeed, the rise of powerful complexes in western Africa predate Islam. The way I see it, Islam was initially adopted as a geopolitical convenience by the elites, to ensure that they were on good terms with their then primary trading partners to the north of the continent, who just so happen to have adopted Islam themselves.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
What special about them?
At its height, the ancient Malian complex was on the world map, as far as notable international relations goes. It was one of the major learning centers in the then "Islamic world"; out of curiosity, where was "Sudan's" place in the world matters during this era?
quote: Even the architecture is look pathetic look at this:
Even with your selective peek at architecture, you cannot deny the originality of the work. In fact, if you look at what seems to you a "simple" structure to be dismissed, one will notice the spikes; they are functionally put in place for regular maintenance work. And as for the material used to build the structure? It was the most accessible. Take note, and learn; quoting myself elsewhere:
"Burial mounds gave way to Mastabas, and Mastaba traditions matured into the grand Egyptian pyramids. Tombs like the Askia structure too ultimately derive from indigenous Sahelian tumuli traditions associated with burials. Courtesy archnet library, we are told for example..." - Explorer
And sure enough, this observation had been replicated elsewhere...
The Tomb of Askia is the central commanding feature of the Great Mosque of Gao. This layout pays homage to the Saharan tradition of prominent ancestral tumuli or tomb mounds erected over graves that date to before 1,000 BC. This large feature was incorporated into a new mosque building tradition in which the mosque itself becomes a combination of tomb, minaret and sacred enclosure. - archnet library
The Kushitic and its progeny Meroitic complexes were impressive in many respects, but the pyramids [though impressive] and many of the architectural monuments left behind by long-gone complexes [like Meroe] in what is now "Sudan" are generally observed to be imitations of either those further down the Nile [Kemet] or Southern Europe [e.g. Rome]. You need to look at things in a broader perspective and widened your knowledge base of places before you dismiss or deride them.
Still, the index of architecture archaeology in the western hemisphere of the continent is varied, when a broadened mind approaches the issue, see for example:
"Before 2000 BC, what is today the southern Sahara was inhabited by significant numbers of herders and farmers. On the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata (Birou) and Tagant Plateaus in modern day Mauritania, they built what are considered among the earliest known civilizations in western Africa. Composed of more than 400 stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, some settlements had massive surrounding walls while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations emerged - factors which no doubt explain the homogeneity of architecture, settlement patterns, and material culture (e.g., lithic and ceramic traditions). This agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel, while crafts, hunting, and fishing were also important economic pursuits...Their elites built funerary monuments for themselves over a period extending from 4000 to 1000 BC." [sources: see Ray A. Kea, and Mauny, R. (1971), “The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87. Monteil, Charles (1953), “La Légende du Ouagadou et l’Origine des Soninke” in Mélanges Ethnologiques (Dakar: Bulletin del’Institut Francais del’Afrique Noir)]
Perhaps this might put things into perspective...
"The flood plain of the Middle Niger of West Africa is line with hundreds of ancient tells rivaling those of Asia both in area and in clues to the emergence of city life...the Middle Niger is dominated by numerous monumental tumuli (McIntosh 1991:203)." - R.J. McIntosh
quote: West african powers were only good in selling gold not warfare they could only defeating other petty west african countries
This is indicative of your ignorance of the history of the region in question. It was the western African Sahelian Almoravid complex that eventually ruled over the Iberian peninsula, and coastal northern Africa. I don't recall the nation of Sudan accomplishing anything close to it, do you?
quote: but when morroco invaded they collapsed like paperhouse
The irony in your statement here of course, is that the complex in Morocco itself was a "western African power". Morocco at the time had an advantage with gun technology that likely had its origins in either the northeast African corner [Egypt] or the so-called "Near East". Even so, it wasn't exactly a cakewalk for the Moroccans, as your claim seems to suggest:
In fact, if Kaba's argument is correct, al-Mansur's attempt at integrating West Africa into his state had long-lasting disastrous consequences for both North and West Africa.
By destroying the strongest centralized state in sub-Saharan Africa, al-Mansur's invasion did irreparable damage to the trans-Saharan trade routes that had enriched both Morocco and West Africa. Instead, this trade increasingly began to be diverted to the south, where it was accessed by European merchants along the Gold and Slave Coasts. And the process of devoting all of the state's efforts towards the invasion exhausted the Sa'di dynasty, making it extremely vulnerable to outside interference and collapse, once misfortune hit in the form of the plague and various famines. The sons of al-Mansur tore his dynasty apart after his death, and Morocco would never again challenge for supremacy in the Islamic or Mediterranean worlds.
In attempting to establish a form of African political unity, al-Mansur **hastened division and decline, leaving West Africa unprotected before the European onslaught that was to come in the following centuries.25** - Stephen Cory of the University of California
Why do you suppose this is the case; after all, the Moroccans were just fighting some petty adversaries who easily caved in upon "Moroccan" pressure, according to you?
I don't seek to get bogged down in these quibbles of so and so folks vs so and so folks, but it has occurred to me that there something much more to your assessments of western Africa; that they are done out of ignorance of the history of the region as well, and so, I'm here to help set the record straight.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Again awsome blog you have going Explorer.. as you are aware there is a constant battle between those who believes that there was some deep rooted contacts between the Nile valley civilizations and civilizations in Nigeria..the Nigerian "Bes" was recently hotly dicussed now you have this,A Kutito/Egungun ceremony in Porto Novo,Benin: Too much coincidence..for just pure chance. I am also looking very closely at this poster Asar Imhoteps...suggestions of wondering bands of priest visting each other across the length and breath of Africa and even beyond..keeping in mind Bes was found as far away as Spain. keep itup man..continue teaching.
Posted by ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru (Member # 11484) on :
Looks somewhat like the egungun in Abeokuta. On few occassions that I stayed with my grandparents out there, they would let them loose at evening/night time. Anyone who was found on the streets got their asses whooped. And rumor has it, it might even be your last day if u got caught
I did see my grandad sneak out in his Ogboni outfit on one occassion to greet the egungun guys using secret protocols and such Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [qb] ^This is what you are Yonis remember that!
quote:Originally posted by Dirk8: Yonis, are you as "Silly" as you sound? I will not do your homework for you, because I don't like Silly Lazy people. You know quiet well what "Caucasoid Means", if you don't then do yourself a favor and look it up online or in a book.
Your people are known in Egypt as Black Africans, "Abeed", but most of your people are Fakers and Deny their Black African Genetics.
Why i'm i that? Because a scotish message board freak say's so?
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean? Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
You're that because that's exactly what you're called by Arabs, yet you praise them.
You seem to know more on events in my life than i do, When was i called that by arabs?
First of all i don't praise any arabs, get that fact straight. Secondly i don't care who are what is associated with this term abeed, i personally have never been called that and frankly i see no reason why anyone would want to call me an abeed since i'm slave to no one and neither were my parents, my grand parents and so forth. I you see yourself as such "because that's what....blala", then be my guest.
Hey Yonis you missed the actual questions....not that it matters really as I know you missed them on purpose!
Who came up with the term abeed Yonis? What does abeed mean?
Don't play dumb!
Where would a Scottish get the incentive to refer to you as such?
Abd means slave in arabic. It predates islam. For instance, Profet Mohammeds father was named Abd allah means slave of allah, and then you have names like Abdulrahman means servant of the most merciful, Abd inasir means servant of the protector etc.
All slaves were called Abd initially, it got associated with african slaves during the later part of middle ages due to excessive supply of such slaves, east-european/circassian slaves were at this point instead referred to as Mameluk. Satisfied?
Posted by Omdurman (Member # 17112) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: At its height, the ancient Malian complex was on the world map, as far as notable international relations goes. It was one of the major learning centers in the then "Islamic world"; out of curiosity, where was "Sudan's" place in the world matters during this era?
Just because some Gerome Lebotinius from Paris or Lisbon knows of your trade doesn't mean your great. My ancestors are spoken off in the Torah, the Bible, the Quran now that's impressive!
Medieval Sudan
quote:
quote: Even the architecture is look pathetic look at this:
Even with your selective peek at architecture, you cannot deny the originality of the work. In fact, if you look at what seems to you a "simple" structure to be dismissed, one will notice the spikes; they are functionally put in place for regular maintenance work. And as for the material used to build the structure? It was the most accessible. Take note, and learn; quoting myself elsewhere:
"Burial mounds gave way to Mastabas, and Mastaba traditions matured into the grand Egyptian pyramids. Tombs like the Askia structure too ultimately derive from indigenous Sahelian tumuli traditions associated with burials. Courtesy archnet library, we are told for example..." - Explorer
And sure enough, this observation had been replicated elsewhere...
The Tomb of Askia is the central commanding feature of the Great Mosque of Gao. This layout pays homage to the Saharan tradition of prominent ancestral tumuli or tomb mounds erected over graves that date to before 1,000 BC. This large feature was incorporated into a new mosque building tradition in which the mosque itself becomes a combination of tomb, minaret and sacred enclosure. - archnet library
The Kushitic and its progeny Meroitic complexes were impressive in many respects, but the pyramids [though impressive] and many of the architectural monuments left behind by long-gone complexes [like Meroe] in what is now "Sudan" are generally observed to be imitations of either those further down the Nile [Kemet] or Southern Europe [e.g. Rome]. You need to look at things in a broader perspective and widened your knowledge base of places before you dismiss or deride them.
Still, the index of architecture archaeology in the western hemisphere of the continent is varied, when a broadened mind approaches the issue, see for example:
"Before 2000 BC, what is today the southern Sahara was inhabited by significant numbers of herders and farmers. On the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata (Birou) and Tagant Plateaus in modern day Mauritania, they built what are considered among the earliest known civilizations in western Africa. Composed of more than 400 stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, some settlements had massive surrounding walls while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations emerged - factors which no doubt explain the homogeneity of architecture, settlement patterns, and material culture (e.g., lithic and ceramic traditions). This agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel, while crafts, hunting, and fishing were also important economic pursuits...Their elites built funerary monuments for themselves over a period extending from 4000 to 1000 BC." [sources: see Ray A. Kea, and Mauny, R. (1971), “The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87. Monteil, Charles (1953), “La Légende du Ouagadou et l’Origine des Soninke” in Mélanges Ethnologiques (Dakar: Bulletin del’Institut Francais del’Afrique Noir)]
Perhaps this might put things into perspective...
"The flood plain of the Middle Niger of West Africa is line with hundreds of ancient tells rivaling those of Asia both in area and in clues to the emergence of city life...the Middle Niger is dominated by numerous monumental tumuli (McIntosh 1991:203)." - R.J. McIntosh
do have pics?
quote:
quote: West african powers were only good in selling gold not warfare they could only defeating other petty west african countries
This is indicative of your ignorance of the history of the region in question. It was the western African Sahelian Almoravid complex that eventually ruled over the Iberian peninsula, and coastal northern Africa. I don't recall the nation of Sudan accomplishing anything close to it, do you?
Bogle and Jari Ankamun are not Berbers, the almoravids were Berbers so i dont know why you are mentioning them unless this is East Africa vs West Africa. Who cares about primitive Iberians? Ancient Sudanese Empire of Kush put all superpowers of middle east into submission
quote:I don't seek to get bogged down in these quibbles of so and so folks vs so and so folks, but it has occurred to me that there something much more to your assessments of western Africa; that they are done out of ignorance of the history of the region as well, and so, I'm here to help set the record straight.
More power to you i just used the same techniqae as racists Bogle and Jari ankhmun and showed how easy a person can deny another's heritage it has little to do with accuracy just closing eyes and saying 'you have nothing is enough' despite evedence to the contrary
Posted by Iqbal (Member # 17123) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: Who cares about primitive Iberians? Ancient Sudanese Empire of Kush put all superpowers of middle east into submission
يا لك مشاهدة فمك
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Explorer wrote: The Kushitic and its progeny Meroitic complexes were impressive in many respects, but the pyramids [though impressive] and many of the architectural monuments left behind by long-gone complexes [like Meroe] in what is now "Sudan" are generally observed to be imitations of either those further down the Nile [Kemet] or Southern Europe [e.g. Rome]. You need to look at things in a broader perspective and widened your knowledge base of places before you dismiss or deride them.
Imitation is a poor choice of word in this respect considering that lower Sudan is more or less a continuation of Upper Egypt or vice versa. These two places have been interwined culturally and existed in the same realm of influence before dynastic Egypt even existed. Rome however is a different story.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Just a question, but how the hell did a thread about genetic lineages labeled as 'Eurasian' actually being African all of a sudden turn into a conflict of East African vs. West African or 'authentic' African vs. those who adopted West Asian religions like Islam or Judaism???
Oh I forgot, this is the Ancient Egypt section where all are free to vent personal insecurities and neuroses. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman: My ancestors are spoken off in the Torah, the Bible, the Quran now that's impressive!
LOL what a walking bag of contradiction you are! The only reason those books have meaning to you is because WHITES and ARABS gave them meaning! You are suppose to be this patriotic Sudanese yet nonSudanese dictate what is of most worth to you. LOL
It makes perfect sense, you look outside of Sudan to worship a god dam stone in a US client state. Stones in glorious Dongolia are too inferior. lol
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: lower Sudan is more or less a continuation of Upper Egypt or vice versa.
Too bad your dumb Somali ass can't claim that either.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omdurman:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: At its height, the ancient Malian complex was on the world map, as far as notable international relations goes. It was one of the major learning centers in the then "Islamic world"; out of curiosity, where was "Sudan's" place in the world matters during this era?
Just because some Gerome Lebotinius from Paris or Lisbon knows of your trade doesn't mean your great.
This off-tangent answer doesn't make sense. You asked what was was special about the Malian empire, and you were given a direct answer, which was to repeat: a)Geopolitically prominent on the world stage of its era and b)A major learning center of the so-called "Islamic World" of the era. If these two don't make it special, then buddy, I don't know what.
Conversely, I asked you this:
out of curiosity, where was "Sudan's" place in the world matters during this era?
And your non-answer was to give us some spam-fillers of buildings and items that don't even reflect "originality"?
quote:
My ancestors are spoken off in the Torah, the Bible, the Quran now that's impressive!
First off, we don't know which "ancestors" you speak.
Secondly, you were asked about the "nation of Sudan", as in the geopolitical entity that was around at the time of the Malian empire. Where in the above-mentioned books do we come across that?
Thirdly, the Torah, Bible, and Quran are based on cosmological concepts and legends that were derived from Kemet, when the ancestors of Isrealites finally situated themselves in the Levant. These people were NOT exactly known for having a wide awareness of geography, other than areas nearer to Kemet.
All in all, your answer is meaningless.
quote:do have pics?
It is not my job to provide you with picture spam-fillers; I gave you data that has been gathered by and is readily accessible in academia. It is your job to take that and learn.
quote: Bogle and Jari Ankamun are not Berbers
Why is this relevant to what I said?
quote:the almoravids were Berbers so i dont know why you are mentioning them unless this is East Africa vs West Africa.
So you are the unexplainable amnesia type? They were mentioned, because you said this: West african powers were only good in selling gold not warfare they could only defeating other petty west african countries - Omdurman
...which is ignorant to say.
quote: Who cares about primitive Iberians?
The "Islamic empires" who ruled over them cared. Also, the fact the a "western African" empire was far more extensive than anything the "nation of Sudan" has ever been able to pull off, is something to care about, in light of what you said that spurred me to mention them.
quote: Ancient Sudanese Empire of Kush put all superpowers of middle east into submission
According to what literature and evidence?
Also, you do realize that the "nation of Sudan" is not the same thing as "Kush", don't you? Matter of fact, it is not established if you necessarily have any immediate biological connections to the inhabitants of Kush.
quote:
More power to you i just used the same techniqae as racists Bogle and Jari ankhmun
I fail to see how the behavior of said individuals gives you justification for saying things out of ignorance.
quote: and showed how easy a person can deny another's heritage it has little to do with accuracy
Ahuh! You are admitting that discussing objective reality is not your goal here? So, you assume that by lying, you'll hurt somebody's feelings rather than impair your own credibility and personality; how does that work?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Bogle wrote:
Too bad your dumb Somali ass can't claim that either.
Your picture should have been attached on this for better marketing.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Explorer wrote: Also, you do realize that the "nation of Sudan" is not the same thing as "Kush", don't you? Matter of fact, it is not established if you necessarily have any immediate biological connections to the inhabitants of Kush.
LOL, you have no problems talking about the Tuareg/berber Almoravids and their empire streching the whole way into Spain. But he as northern sudanese has to *establish* his biological relationship with the kushites, an ancient group of northern sudan before he should talk?
Let alone the kushites i'm quite sure he has stronger biological relationship to the Berber Almoravids you so dearly speak of than the majority of west africans do. Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
Imitation is a poor choice of word in this respect considering that lower Sudan is more or less a continuation of Upper Egypt or vice versa.
Why? Did the Kemetic state assume that Kemet and Kush were a single state, and vice versa?
quote: These two places have been interwined culturally and existed in the same realm of influence before dynastic Egypt even existed.
That's true enough. I don't doubt there is a multitude of cultural and social elements that one can point out, which flowed in the other direction, that is -- from what was in what is now part of Sudan and the Sahara into what is now territory of modern Egypt. However, monuments like the pyramid, and a number of other architectural concepts in Kush, and subsequently Meroe, had been visibly influenced from concepts that originated in Kemet. Concepts in Rome received inspiration from the Greeks, who in turn got their inspirations from Kemet. Some of these inspirations with possibly Roman twists to them in a few areas, along with direct influences from Kemet, made their way to Meroe. This is of course, not to deny that the people of Kush or Meroe were creative architecture designers in their own right, but those influences cannot be dismissed either. And why is this relevant? Under ordinary circumstances, it wouldn't. However, when someone like Omdurman selectively points to some monument in the "western Sudan" that he understands very little about, while belittling it, it is necessary to call to attention, the true historic and educational value of the item in question that his ignorance debilitates him from seeing.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Explorer wrote: Also, you do realize that the "nation of Sudan" is not the same thing as "Kush", don't you? Matter of fact, it is not established if you necessarily have any immediate biological connections to the inhabitants of Kush.
LOL, you have no problems talking about the Tuareg/berber Almoravids and their empire streching the whole way into Spain.
No, not in light of what I was responding to. Why should I?
quote: But he as northern sudanese has to *establish* his biological relationship with the kushites, an ancient group of northern sudan before he should talk?
Fact is, the Kushitic complex had long gone before the nation of Sudan came into being. The specific social make up of this complex was altered along with its demise. These folks were also largely speakers of indigenous African language and held onto a lot of traditions that were original to them. This clearly cannot be said of all of the contemporary nation of Sudan. You now have some "Arabic" speaking individuals who look down on those who managed to keep their original social identity, and who convince themselves that the latter don't have any relations with the historic complex [Kush]; this is what I find ironic! When one examines Kemetic accounts of Kush, the diversity encountered is impossible to deny; today however, some Arabic-speaking "Sudanese" will deny this diversity ever existed, and that only certain people of certain look, mainly in "northern Sudan" have authentic relations with the historic Kushitic and Meroitic complexes.
quote:
Let alone the kushites i'm quite sure he has stronger biological relationship to the Berber Almoravids you dearly speak of than the majority of west africans do
Do you have DNA data to back this up?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Explorer wrote:
Why? Did the Kemetic state assume that Kemet and Kush were a single state, and vice versa?
Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan were cultural twins, the term *imitation* would fit if we were talking about ancient Greece in relation to AE.
"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant." Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 ) Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^I asked:
Did the Kemetic state assume that Kemet and Kush were a single state, and vice versa?
Yes or No?
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ^I asked:
Did the Kemetic state assume that Kemet and Kush were a single state, and vice versa?
Yes or No?
Yes, considering that Egypt was ruled from Napata in Kush and also prior of being independent kush was governed from Thebes and the various capitals of the Pharaos, which would make them single state.
Kushite kings for instance considered lower Egypt as being foreign land while Kmt consisting of Kush and Upper Egypt. Pharao Piye of Kush: "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Let alone the kushites i'm quite sure he has stronger biological relationship to the Berber Almoravids you dearly speak of than the majority of west africans do
Do you have DNA data to back this up?
While we await your evidence, I'll give you an idea of mine to the contrary:
a)Sahelian "Berbers" are known to be genetically tied to their brethren in the coastal areas by the "characteristic" E-M81 mutation. This marker is rare in Sudan. It is however, fairly common in western Africa. Furthermore, these "Berbers" have been implicated in western African "E(xE3b)" markers as well.
Rando et al. observed:
The mitochondrial data of the Northwest African populations (Berber from Morocco and Algeria, Moroccans, West-Saharans, Mauritanians, Tuareg) show a mosaic composition of mtDNA types, with a pronounced gradient of sub-Saharan lineages from north to south: at the one extreme, the Berbers from Morocco have a predominantly European (Iberian) affinity, while at the other extreme, the Tuareg are closely related to sub-Saharan West Africans as represented by several Senegalese groups in this study, whereas the West-Saharans and Mauritanians are somewhat intermediate. It is remarkable that the Tuareg bear little mitochondrial resemblance to the Berber populations, although they speak a Berber language."
*The Tuaregs here are apparently the Western African ones.
Of note is that the other Tuareg sample described in the literature (Watson et al., 1996) (Western Tuaregs) did not show a close genetic relationship with the Libyan Tuaregs, implying a genetic heterogeneity of the Tuaregs. This difference appears to be primarily caused by the low frequency (8%) of the European component in the Western Tuaregs, characteristic of northern African populations. After the removal of the H and V haplotypes, the Libyan Tuaregs showed a strong affiliation with the Eastern populations, while the Western Tuaregs associated more with the Central and Western African populations. - Claudio Ottoni et al., First Genetic Insight into Libyan Tuaregs: A Maternal Perspective
Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa. Feb 2005
Cherni L, Loueslati BY, Pereira L, Ennafaa H, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB.
Laboratory of Molecular Genetics, Immunology, and Biotechnology, Faculty of Sciences of Tunis, University of Tunis, El Manar II 1060, Tunisia.
North African populations are considered genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharans. However, they display a considerably high mtDNA heterogeneity among them, namely in the frequencies of the U6, East African, and sub-Saharan haplogroups. In this study, we describe and compare the female gene pools of two neighboring Tunisian populations, Kesra (Berber) and Zriba (non-Berber), which have contrasting historical backgrounds. Both populations presented lower diversity values than those observed for other North African populations, and they were the only populations not showing significant negative Fu's F(S) values. Kesra displayed a much higher proportion of typical sub-Saharan haplotypes (49%, including 4.2% of M1 haplogroup) than Zriba (8%). With respect to U6 sequences, frequencies were low (2% in Kesra and 8% in Zriba), and all belonged to the subhaplogroup U6a. An analysis of these data in the context of North Africa reveals that the emerging picture is complex, because Zriba would match the profile of a Berber Moroccan population, whereas Kesra, which shows twice the frequency of sub-Saharan lineages normally observed in northern coastal populations, would match a western Saharan population except for the low U6 frequency.
See any pattern here?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ^I asked:
Did the Kemetic state assume that Kemet and Kush were a single state, and vice versa?
Yes or No?
Yes, considering that Egypt was ruled from Napata in Kush
Firstly, this post-dates the pyramids, and many of the architectural influences that diffused into Kush. In fact, the Kushitic rulers of Kemet at this time, made it a point to adopt a lot of "Egyptian" concepts than Kush likely had ever voluntarily done so prior to that.
Furthermore, why would Kush leadership restrict flow of migrants from Kush-proper at the time?
quote: and also prior of being independent kush was governed from Thebes and the various capitals of the Pharaos, which would make them single state.
Are you saying that the nation of Kush emerged as a "colony" of Kemet, and not as an independent power on its own? According to what evidence?
quote:
Kushite kings for instance considered lower Egypt as being foreign land while Kmt consisting of Kush and Upper Egypt. Pharao Piye of Kush: "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)"
But see, this actually further highlights the faulty premise of your logic. The state of Kemet included "Lower Egypt" as well. If the state of Kush thought that Kemet and Kush were one and same or a single state, why would this Kemetic territory be seen as "foreign"? What happened prior to this, such that "Upper Egypt" and "Kush" would be in good terms, but "Kush" and "Lower Egypt" would not be? What had to be done to arrive at that status quo?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Again awsome blog you have going Explorer.. as you are aware there is a constant battle between those who believes that there was some deep rooted contacts between the Nile valley civilizations and civilizations in Nigeria..the Nigerian "Bes" was recently hotly dicussed now you have this,A Kutito/Egungun ceremony in Porto Novo,Benin: Too much coincidence..for just pure chance. I am also looking very closely at this poster Asar Imhoteps...suggestions of wondering bands of priest visting each other across the length and breath of Africa and even beyond..keeping in mind Bes was found as far away as Spain. keep itup man..continue teaching.
Thanx for the compliment. Due credit for initially bringing the above photos to attention on ES goes out to the poster by the pseudonym "Pax".
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
quote:Explorer wrote:
While we await your evidence, I'll give you an idea of mine to the contrary:
HOLOCENE HUMAN PEOPLING OF LYBIAN SAHARA
In trying to reconstruct a possible scenario for the origin of the Libyan Tuareg L2a lineages, it is worth noting that the ancestor node of the L2a-16189-16192 haplotype (i.e L2a-16189) is mainly distributed in Eastern Africa, particularly in the Sudan region. This opens the possibility that the L2a Libyan Tuareg lineages are from Eastern Africa. The same result was found by Cavalli-Sforza too (1997), who observed a strong genetic relationship at the nuclear DNA level between Tuareg and the Beja populations, whose separation dates back to about 6,000 years ago. [/I] http://dspace.uniroma2.it/dspace/bitstream/2108/646/1/PhD_Tesi_Ottoni.pdf Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Not that it matters, but...
It is difficult to trace the origin of L2a with any confidence. The deepest part of L2a, represented by clusters α1-α3, is most common in East Africa. However, the diversity and TMRCA are similar in East (61,250 [SE 13,500] years) and West (54,100 [SE 17,087] years) Africa. The diversity accumulated separately in East and West Africa, estimated from the main shared founder types (and disregarding the possibility of subsequent gene flow), is again similar in the two regions, at ~14,000 years (14,100 years [SE 5,100], and 13,800 years [SE 4,700], respectively), suggesting a separation shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum.
An easterly origin for L2a also faces the following difficulties: that the other subclades of L2 (L2b, L2c, and L2d) have a clear western distribution, and that L2d diverges earlier in the mtDNA phylogeny than L2a (Torroni et al. Torroni et al., 2001). A possible solution would be an origin for L2a somewhere **between east and west**, followed by dispersals in both directions along the Sahel corridor. - Salas et al. 2002, The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape.
However, remember that we are talking about Almoravids, "western Sahelian" people. What do the DNA study extracts that I posted a few posts ago tell us about these groups?
Posted by Bob_01 (Member # 15687) on :
Bump.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
African: E
Possibly African: M1
Back-to-Africa migrant haplogroups: U6 R1
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Possibly African: M1
Most likely African
quote:Back-to-Africa migrant haplogroups: U6 R1
Edit: Both U6 and R1 have likely chances of being African in origin
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Mitochondrial M lineages in Ethiopia were first detected by RFLP analyses [51]. To explain its presence in that area the authors suggested two possibilities: 1) the marker was acquired by Ethiopians through interchanges with Asians or 2) it was present in the ancient Ethiopian population and was carried to Asia by groups who migrated out of Africa. Later, the second hypothesis was favored and a single origin of haplogroup M in Africa was suggested, dating the split between Asian and African M branches older than 50,000 ya [22]. Although not completely discarding this last scenario other authors considered that the disjunctive was unsettled. The vast diversity of haplogroup M in Asia compared to Africa pointed to the possibility that M1 is a branch that traces a backflow from Asia to Africa [7,23]. Due to the scarcity of M lineages in the Near East and its richness in India, this region was proposed as the most probable origin of the M1 ancestor [7,52]. However, recent studies based on Indian mtDNA sequences [24,25] have not found any positive evidence that M1 originated in India. Nevertheless, the inclusion of M1 complete mtDNA lineages in the construction of the macrohaplogroup M phylogeny clearly established that the antiquity of Indian lineages, as M2, as compared to Ethiopian M1 lineages support an Asian origin of macrohaplogroup M [24]. Furthermore, the comparison within Africa of eastern and western M1 sequences left the origin of M1 in Africa uncertain [21]. On the light of our and other authors results, it seems clear that by their respective coalescence ages and diversities, M1 is younger than other Asiatic M lineages. Although it is out of doubt that the L3 ancestor of M had an African origin, macrohaplogroup M radiated outside Africa and M1 should be considered an evolved branch that signals its return to this continent. Even more, as the coalescence ages of the northwestern M1c clade is older than the eastern M1a clade, we think that the most ancient dispersals of M1 occurred in northwestern Africa, reaching also the Iberian Peninsula, instead of Ethiopia. The detection of an ancestral M1c sequence in Jordanians could be explained by two alternative hypotheses: 1) that the Near East was the most probable origin of the primitive M1 dispersals, West into Africa and East to Central Asia. This supposition would explain the presence of basic M1 lineages, instead of the most common M1a derivates, as far as the Tibet. The actual scarcity of these types in eastern areas could be explained by posterior migrations that erased these primitive lineages. The absence of these ancestral M1c lineages in Ethiopia would point to the Sinai Peninsula as the most probable gate of entrance of this backflow to Africa. 2) That M1 is an autochthonous North African clade that had its earliest spread in northwestern areas marginally reaching the Near East and beyond. This would explain the shortage of basic M1 lineages in the Near East but would leave the Asiatic origin of the M1 ancestor undetermined. In any case, both alternatives envisaged M in Africa as an offshoot of the Asiatic M trunk. The striking phylogeographic parallelism between U6 and M1 haplogroups adds additional support to these hypotheses. It is possible to correlate the dispersion ages of the different M1 clades with their contemporary climatic, archaeological, paleoanthropological and linguistic information. For instance, the first M1 backflow to Africa, dated around 30,000 ya, is coincidental with a harsh glacial period which suggests that this human retreat to Africa could be forced by climatic conditions. The low sea level in the Gibraltar Strait at that time could also facilitate the Iberian Peninsula colonization. The northwestern African M1c and the probable north central M1b expansions are coincidental with the Iberomaurusian and Capsian industries. The anomalous evolution of M1a2 lineages left the coalescence ages of the eastern Africa M1a expansion uncertain, but as suggested for the sister U6a1 radiation; these movements could be correlated in time with an African origin and expansion of Afroasiatic languages [40]. Finally, from a maternal genetic perspective it seems that Neolithic occupation of the Sahara had both eastern and western influences. Most probably other mtDNA lineages participated in this human back flow to Africa. It has been suggested that the North African X1 branch of the Euroasiatic haplogroup X could be one of them [63]. Whilst this paper was under review, a new paper also dealing with U6 and M1 haplogroups was published [53]. Haplogroup topologies and phylogeographic conclusions proposed by Olivieri et al. [53] are highly coincidental with those proposed by us in our previous paper on U6 [40] and in the present paper, dealing with M1. Regrettably, there are differences in nomenclature for M1. Whereas our M1 phylogeny adhered to that proposed previously by other authors [21], Olivieri et al. [53] chose to apply their own. Nevertheless, the diagnostic positions for the different M1 subhaplogroups allowed us to establish subhaplogroup homologies between the two works. Clearly their M1b subgroup (defined by transition 13111) corresponds to our M1c subgroup; their M1a2 subgroup (defined by transition 15884) corresponds to our M1b subgroup. Finally, their M1a1 subgroup (defined by transitions at 3705, 12346 and 16359) corresponds to our M1a subgroup. In addition to the reinforcing overlap of ideas, it is worthwhile mentioning the high coincidence for the coalescence ages of M1 and the majority of its subhaplogroups, when the same substitution rate [8] is used. Olivieri et al. [53] calculated a coalescence time estimate of 36.8 ± 7.1 ky for the entire haplogroup M1 that matches our estimate of 35.2 ± 7.1 ky. Our coalescence time for M1c (25.7 ± 6.6 ky) also overlaps with Olivieri et al. [53] haplogroup M1b (23.4 ± 5.6 ky). Likewise, the coalescence age calculated for our M1a subhaplogroup (22.6 ± 8.1 ky) is in the range of the Olivieri et al. [53] estimation for their M1a1 subhaplogroup (20.6 ± 3.4 ky). The only discrepancy is about the coalescence time estimate between our M1b subhaplogroup (13.7 ± 4.8 ky) that is younger than that calculated by Olivieri et al. [53] for their homologous M1a2 (24.0 ± 5.7 ky). As our calculations are based only on three lineages and that of Oliveri et al [53] on six, we think that their coalescence time estimation should be more accurate that ours. In fact, when time estimation is based on the eight different lineages (AFR-KI43 is common to both sets) a coalescence age of 20.6 ± 5.0 ky is obtained. Although with overlapping errors, these results, together with the relative ancestral positions of each subgroup in the phylogenetic tree (Fig. (Fig.1),1), would suggest that the northwestern M1c clade radiation was older than those for the ubiquitous M1b and the eastern M1a clades, as also proposed by Olivieri et al. [53].
Conclusion This study provides evidence that M1, or its ancestor, had an Asiatic origin. The earliest M1 expansion into Africa occurred in northwestern instead of northeastern areas; this early spread reached the Iberian Peninsula even affecting the Basques. The majority of the M1a lineages found outside and inside Africa had a more recent eastern Africa origin. Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara. The striking parallelism between subclade ages and geographic distribution of M1 and its North African U6 counterpart strongly reinforces this scenario. Finally, a relevant fraction of M1a lineages present today in the European Continent and nearby islands possibly had a Jewish instead of the commonly proposed Arab/Berber maternal ascendance.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Ah, how redundant of you; to post a study that was discussed at the very beginning of this thread. Read the thread. Then ask questions
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. Perahu, I'm not calling you a fool but you are acting foolish by citing something which was already discussed and refuted earlier in this thread. But thanks for bumping this thread up, this was what I was looking for.
Here is more recent finding on M1:
Macrohaplogroup M in Arabia Macrohaplogroup M is particularly abundant and diverse in South and Southeast Asia, reaching frequencies above 60% in some regions (Metspalu et al., 2004). However, it is practically absent in western Asia (Quintana-Murci et al., 2004). In Africa, only one autochthonous basal branch of M, named M1, has been detected (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999). In this continent it has a predominant northern distribution. M1 is particularly abundant in Ethiopia (20%). From there, frequencies significantly diminish forming decreasing gradients westwards and southwards. It has been proposed that the presence of M1 in Africa and surrounding Mediterranean areas can be explained as result of two expansion centers situated in East and Northwest Africa which are marked by the radiation of subhaplogroups M1a and M1b respectively (Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007). Although the coalescence age of M1 is Paleolithic it seems that the most important expansions occurred in Neolithic times when the Sahara was a more hospitable region. Some authors consider that the presence of M1 in Africa supports the idea that macrohaplogroup M originated in eastern Africa and was carried towards Asia with the out of Africa expansion (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999), others think that the distribution of M1 in Africa traces an early human backflow to this Continent from Asia (Maca-Meyer et al., 2001; Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007).
In Arabia, M lineages account for 7% of the total and half of them belong to the M1 African clade. M1 frequencies are significantly greater in western Arabian regions than in the East (Abu-Amero et al., 2008). As the majority of the M1 haplotypes in Arabia belong to the East African M1a subclade, it seems that, likewise L lineages, [b]the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards--Vicente M. Cabrera et al. 2009
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^NP, thought this was the one.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^Yep. Below is a recap with fuller citation of what you and others have already posted. Keep on compiling this valuable info for "the base."
-------------------------------------------------
"The majority of the resting M lineages found in Arabia has matches or are related to Indian clades. In addition, some M sequences point to rare links with more remote geographic regions as Central Asia, West New Guinea and even Australia (Abu-Amero et al., 2008). Although more ancient connections cannot be discarded, it seems that this rare M component in the Arabian populations could be the result of trade and military links among those regions in Arabia during and after the British role. As all the M lineages found in Arabia belong to haplogroups that have deeper roots and diversities in other geographic regions, its presence in the Arabian peninsula is better explained as external genetic inputs. Therefore, there are no traces of autochthonous M lineages in Arabia that could support the exit of modern humans from Africa across the Bab al Mandab strait."
--Vicente M. Cabrera et al. 2009
Cabrera V. et. al (2009). The Arabian Penisula: Gate for Human Migrations Out of Africa or Cul-de-sac? A Mitochondrial DNA Phylogeographic Perspective. IN: Petraglia, D. and Rose J. (eds) (2009) The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia: Paleoenvironments, Prehistory and Genetics. Springer: 2010. pp. 79-87 --------------------------------------------------------------------
"Macrohaplogroup M in Arabia
Macrohaplogroup M is particularly abundant and diverse in South and Southeast Asia, reaching frequencies above 60% in some regions (Metspalu et al., 2004). However, it is practically absent in western Asia (Quintana-Murci et al., 2004). In Africa, only one autochthonous basal branch of M, named M1, has been detected (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999). In this continent it has a predominant northern distribution. M1 is particularly abundant in Ethiopia (20%). From there, frequencies significantly diminish forming decreasing gradients westwards and southwards. It has been proposed that the presence of M1 in Africa and surrounding Mediterranean areas can be explained as result of two expansion centers situated in East and Northwest Africa which are marked by the radiation of subhaplogroups M1a and M1b respectively (Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007). Although the coalescence age of M1 is Paleolithic it seems that the most important expansions occurred in Neolithic times when the Sahara was a more hospitable region. Some authors consider that the presence of M1 in Africa supports the idea that macrohaplogroup M originated in eastern Africa and was carried towards Asia with the out of Africa expansion (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999), others think that the distribution of M1 in Africa traces an early human backflow to this Continent from Asia (Maca-Meyer et al., 2001; Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007).
In Arabia, M lineages account for 7% of the total and half of them belong to the M1 African clade. M1 frequencies are significantly greater in western Arabian regions than in the East (Abu-Amero et al., 2008). As the majority of the M1 haplotypes in Arabia belong to the East African M1a subclade, it seems that, likewise L lineages, [b]the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards."
--Vicente M. Cabrera et al. 2009 Cabrera V. et. al (2009). The Arabian Penisula: Gate for Human Migrations Out of Africa or Cul-de-sac? A Mitochondrial DNA Phylogeographic Perspective. IN: Petraglia, D. and Rose J. (eds) (2009) The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia: Paleoenvironments, Prehistory and Genetics. Springer: 2010. pp. 79-87
-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
It all depends on time frame. M1’s parental clade M is firmly placed in Asia. There are no basal M lineages in Africa to date (the Senegalese sample mentioned in the OP is actually not a basal M). On top of that, M1 is fairly young compared to South Asian M subclades.
Haplogroup E is widely accepted to be of African origin. However, one particular subclade of E, E-V13 is West Eurasian (arose in the Balkans or Anatolia from its African ancestor E-M78).
Scientists quite often mention E-V13 as a European lineage. This does not make the E haplogroup European! So if some scientists wish to claim M1 as African, it doesn't mean its parental clade M is.
But when exactly does a haplogroup become African/European/Asian? Is E-V13 still African or can we consider it European by now?
Same logic applies to M1/U6, which ARE African haplogroups but ultimately have their roots in the Eurasian continent.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:It all depends on time frame. M1’s parental clade M is firmly placed in Asia. There are no basal M lineages in Africa to date (the Senegalese sample mentioned in the OP is actually not a basal M). On top of that, M1 is fairly young compared to South Asian M subclades.
Despite this all, an ancestor to M1 has not been found in South Asia. As a matter of fact, M haplogroups in Asia are devoid of the variations that characterize M1 (6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110[).
According to Sun et al.:
quote:A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, that is, 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India.
As mention previously in this thread, an ancestor to M1 has not been found in Asia. M clades in Asia are sister clades to M1, not ancestral.
quote: Haplogroup E is widely accepted to be of African origin. However, one particular subclade of E, E-V13 is West Eurasian (arose in the Balkans or Anatolia from its African ancestor E-M78).
Scientists quite often mention E-V13 as a European lineage. This does not make the E haplogroup European! So if some scientists wish to claim M1 as African, it doesn't mean its parental clade M is.
Of course it doesn't. Not comparable to M1 though.
M is most likely of African origin as well. Based on the evidence for M1, M was present in the population that gave rise to M1. Not to mention, L3 has not been observed outside Africa.
quote:But when exactly does a haplogroup become African/European/Asian? Is E-V13 still African or can we consider it European by now?
European because it emerged in Europe.
quote:Same logic applies to M1/U6, which ARE African haplogroups but ultimately have their roots in the Eurasian continent.
Read the thread, specifically page two
Furthermore,
quote:Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M.
--Mait Metspalu et al. 2004
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
BTW, there is something I left out Perahu- even if M did emerge out of Africa, it did so right after the first OOA migrations and then went back. So it would basically have originated amongst African groups. Certainly not enough time for populations to diverged
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
There is no evidence whatsoever for an African origin of M, just simple guesswork but no concrete data. There are a whopping 45+ basal M lineages in Asia alone, but none in Africa. The only logical, unbiased explanation for this is that M migrated from Asia to Africa.
M1 itself isn’t even a basal M lineage, it does not split off at the root of M. It shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 (Kong et al. 2011, only found in Asia) and M51 (Peng et al. 2010, Hartmann et al. 2009, again only found in Asia). These two recently discovered lineages provide major support for the Asian origin hypothesis.
quote:Originally posted by L': BTW, there is something I left out Perahu- even if M did emerge out of Africa, it did so right after the first OOA migrations and then went back. So it would basically have originated amongst African groups. Certainly not enough time for populations to diverged
OOA occurred ~60 kya M1 emerged ~30 kya
That's more than enough time for new population substructure to form.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes M1 emerged 30 kya in Africa. Which is why it is not found in Asia and its sequence variations are different. Have you not heard of a phenomenon called parallel mutation??
"The more recent upheavals in the Sudan may also have altered patterns. The social context/circumstances of gene flow must always be considered, and ideally understood. The historical linguistic data reported earlier would apply in the case of maternal lineages as well. It can also be argued that it is not likely that the "northern" genetic profile is simply due to "Eurasians" having colonized supra-Saharan regions from external African sources. It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin. As a term "Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it suggests a single locale of geographical origins. This is because it can be postulated that differentiation of the L3* haplogroup began before the emigration out of Africa, and that there would be indigenous supra- Saharan/Saharan or Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More work and careful analysis of mtDNA and the archeological data and likely probabilities is needed. Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion." Source: Keita, 2005 Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: There is no evidence whatsoever for an African origin of M, just simple guesswork but no concrete data. There are a whopping 45+ basal M lineages in Asia alone, but none in Africa. The only logical, unbiased explanation for this is that M migrated from Asia to Africa.
M1 itself isn’t even a basal M lineage, it does not split off at the root of M. It shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 (Kong et al. 2011, only found in Asia) and M51 (Peng et al. 2010, Hartmann et al. 2009, again only found in Asia). These two recently discovered lineages provide major support for the Asian origin hypothesis.
quote:Originally posted by L': BTW, there is something I left out Perahu- even if M did emerge out of Africa, it did so right after the first OOA migrations and then went back. So it would basically have originated amongst African groups. Certainly not enough time for populations to diverged
OOA occurred ~60 kya M1 emerged ~30 kya
That's more than enough time for new population substructure to form.
Can you post the full sources on those 2 articles? Interested in reading that! Thanks.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Regarding M20 and M51 (exclusively Asian close relatives of M1):
*All basal branches of M are Asian, M1 is not basal. Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Currently looking through both articles. Will get back once I am done looking at the articles and viewing the supplementary data.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:There is no evidence whatsoever for an African origin of M, just simple guesswork but no concrete data. There are a whopping 45+ basal M lineages in Asia alone, but none in Africa. The only logical, unbiased explanation for this is that M migrated from Asia to Africa.
Care to explain the lack of an ancestor to M1 in Asia as well as the lack of M1? And obviously there is evidence M originated in Africa, but I see your point.
quote: M1 itself isn’t even a basal M lineage, it does not split off at the root of M. It shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 (Kong et al. 2011, only found in Asia) and M51 (Peng et al. 2010, Hartmann et al. 2009, again only found in Asia). These two recently discovered lineages provide major support for the Asian origin hypothesis.
I would like you to tell me where in both papers this appears. I might be missing it because I'm tired.
I would like you provide a quote, or tell me where in the papers this appears so I can go and look back at it.
In the mean time, I'll go to sleep then look over the papers again later
BTW, need the name of the 2009 paper you referenced, all I could find was this:
M20 - HM030505 M51* - GQ301879 M51a - GQ301870 M51a1 - EU597554 and GQ301874
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
You did this exact same thing with The Explorer. I asked you to tell me where in the articles I can verify your claims. So cite the specific quote in both articles or post an image, so I can go back and find them in case I missed something the first time around.
I also asked for the title of the 2009 article.
What you posted is not what I asked for. I'm starting to suspect you weren't able to get pass the paywall on Oxford Journals.
Be back later to see what you come up with...
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
They are all listed.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
I never said you made the lineages up. I suspect you didn't read the papers you referenced because you were unable to quote where in the paper those statements were made, I was unable to find such statements. M20 was not in the article, but in the supplementary data. And I am unable to find the 2009 article referenced by you. All I wanted was answers
In regards to your link, see the article I posted earlier by Sun et al. 2006
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The studies submitted their mtDNA genomic data to Genbank, which is publicly accessible. I gave you the Genbank IDs in order for you to verify the mutations listed on the official phylogenetic tree. You don't need anything more than that.
Anyways, the point is.. M originated in Asia, not Africa.
ALL basal M lineages are Asian, NONE are African to date. On top of that, M1 is not even basal and shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 and M51 (both exclusive to Asia). Your Sun et al. reference is outdated.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
Let him sleep on it. He'll give you an answer in the morning.lol
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^The Hartman 2009 reference seems to relate more to the technical efficacy of the Human Mitochondrial Resequencing Array (MITOCHIP) than to any specific details on "M". No doubt Mitochip 2.0 may indeed offer better technical performance than previous versions, as far as the technical mechanics of sequencing goes. As such it can be used to support either an Asian or African hypothesis, as researchers refine their arguments. --- Hartmann A, et al. (2009) Validation of microarray-based resequencing of 93.
Abstract: The human mitochondrial genome consists of a multicopy, circular dsDNA molecule of 16,569 base pairs. It encodes for 13 proteins, two ribosomal genes, and 22 tRNAs that are essential in the generation of cellular ATP by oxidative phosphorylation in eukaryotic cells. Germline mutations in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) are an important cause of maternally inherited diseases, while somatic mtDNA mutations may play important roles in aging and cancer. mtDNA polymorphisms are also widely used in population and forensic genetics. Therefore, methods that allow the rapid, inexpensive and accurate sequencing of mtDNA are of great interest. One such method is the Affymetrix GeneChip® Human Mitochondrial Resequencing Array 2.0 (MitoChip v.2.0) (Santa Clara, CA). A direct comparison of 93 worldwide mitochondrial genomes sequenced by both the MitoChip and dideoxy terminator sequencing revealed an average call rate of 99.48% and an accuracy of ≥99.98% for the MitoChip. The good performance was achieved by using in-house software for the automated analysis of additional probes on the array that cover the most common haplotypes in the hypervariable regions (HVR). Failure to call a base was associated mostly with the presence of either a run of ≥4 C bases or a sequence variant within 12 bases up- or downstream of that base. A major drawback of the MitoChip is its inability to detect insertions/deletions and its low sensitivity and specificity in the detection of heteroplasmy. However, the vast majority of haplogroup defining polymorphism in the mtDNA phylogeny could be called unambiguously and more rapidly than with conventional sequencing.
BUT, In any event, a variant of the original African 'L" makes little difference as far as Egypt is concerned. It is clear that "middle Easterners' did not have the tropical body proportions that characterize Egyptians, as shown by mainstream scholarship.
QUOTE:
"There is long-standing disagreement regarding Upper Pleistocene human evolution in Western Asia, particularly the Levant. Some argue that there were two different populations, perhaps different species, of Upper Pleistocene Levantine hominids. The first, from the Israeli sites of Qafzeh and Skhul, is anatomically modern. The second, from sites such as Amud, Kebara, and Tabun, is archaic, or "Neandertal" in morphology. Others argue that this is a false dichotomy and that all of these hominids belong to a single, highly variable population. In this paper I attempt to resolve this issue by examining postcranial measures reflective of body shape. Results indicate that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have African-like, or tropically adapted, proportions, while those from Amud, Kebara, Tabun, and Shanidar (Iraq) have more European-like, or cold-adapted, proportions. This suggests that there were in fact two distinct Western Asian populations and that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids were likely African in origin - a result consistent with the "Replacement" model of modern human origins.
What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Your second reference is completely irrelevant to this discussion. None of the studies went into great detail on those M20/M51 sequences. They just simply published the sequences in Genbank (anyone can verify this). However, I’m confident that a future study on M1 will mention it, as support for the Asian origin hypothesis. I'm also pretty sure that in the future only more and more basal lineages similar to M1 will be found in Asia, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
All of M = originally Asian
OVER 45 basal M lineages in Asia, NONE in Africa!
African origin hypothesis: 0 Asian origin hypothesis: +1 Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
^Perahu I'll deal with you later.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
There is nothing to be dealt with anymore. The data speaks for itself, you guys will just start repeating the same old outdated bullshit. Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:The studies submitted their mtDNA genomic data to Genbank, which is publicly accessible. I gave you the Genbank IDs in order for you to verify the mutations listed on the official phylogenetic tree. You don't need anything more than that.
Should have said that in the beginning, instead of falsely giving the impression that you were referencing the actual study opposed to just the tree.
quote:Anyways, the point is.. M originated in Asia, not Africa.
That could be
quote:ALL basal M lineages are Asian, NONE are African to date. On top of that, M1 is not even basal and shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 and M51 (both exclusive to Asia). Your Sun et al. reference is outdated.
How can my Sun et al. reference not be applicable to the current situation? It hasn't been determined if the similarities are due to common ancestry or random parallel mutation as noted by Sun et al. as he stated common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. Which has NOT been determined in this case.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The shared transition between M20, M51, and M1 is 14110.
This transition is *not* in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) of mitochondrial DNA. Thus indicative of shared ancestry rather than randomness. Sun et al.'s theory is not applicable here as he only mentions HVR transitions.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Your second reference is completely irrelevant to this discussion. None of the studies went into great detail on those M20/M51 sequences. They just simply published the sequences in Genbank (anyone can verify this). However, I’m confident that a future study on M1 will mention it, as support for the Asian origin hypothesis. I'm also pretty sure that in the future only more and more basal lineages similar to M1 will be found in Asia, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
All of M = originally Asian
OVER 45 basal M lineages in Asia, NONE in Africa!
African origin hypothesis: 0 Asian origin hypothesis: +1
That last part you wrote is misleading, there are two hypotheses for the original of mtDNA haplogroup M, one states that both M and N originated in Africa and migrated out very quickly with subsequent extinction of any remaining lineages, or either that M and N arose on an L3 background shortly after the OOA migrations, at least be more damn honest.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The African origin hypothesis of M is NOT backed up by any significant data whatsoever; it is merely based on flimsy guesswork. The Asian origin hypothesis of M actually IS backed up by large amounts of data.
Unless they find any of those elusive basal M clades in Africa the former theory remains nothing more than an Afrocentric fantasy.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The African origin hypothesis of M is NOT backed up by any significant data whatsoever; it is merely based on flimsy guesswork. The Asian origin hypothesis of M actually IS backed up by large amounts of data.
Unless they find any of those elusive basal M clades in Africa the former theory remains nothing more than an Afrocentric fantasy.
Thats a different tone from what you said earlier and please tell me the basal Asian clade that M1 came from, I'm waiting because to date no such thing has been published, the latest craze is to connect it somehow with the spread of U6, though U6 is low is East Africa and higher in North Africa with the reverse being true for East and Northeast Africa.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
All your above questions have been answered in previous posts. And as for high frequencies, they mean absolutely nothing. I'm not even going to tackle the Asian origin of U and R, which is way too easy to prove.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: All your above questions have been answered in previous posts. And as for high frequencies, they mean absolutely nothing. I'm not even going to tackle the Asian origin of U and R, which is way to easy to prove.
My questions haven't been answered and if M and N securely arose in Asia as you claim please point out the Asian population that has the ancestral L3 lineage that both M and N arose on, to date it hasn't been found in any population in Asia, yet we do know that L3 is African in origin and that both M and N are really both downstream Le lineages.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
^
All lineages which split off at the root of M are Asian.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: ^
All lineages which split off at the root of M are Asian.
Thats picture spamming, not evidence, you haven't conclusively proven that M arose in Asia, nor have you disproven its African origin.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
It actually did. All of the surviving whopping 45+ basal M lineages are Asian (including the monophyletic clade M1 is part of). If you can't grasp this simple concept I think any further discussion is futile.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: It actually did. All of the surviving whopping 45+ basal M lineages are Asian (including the monophyletic clade M1 is part of). If you can't grasp this simple concept I think further discussion is futile.
Post the citation that says that M1 belongs to a monophyletic clade that Asians, post it, I don't want to hear your deductive reasoning, just post the damn citation.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
M20: Found in China M51: Found in Vietnam and Cambodia
And in case your next argument is going to be 'parallel mutations', don't even bother as it has already been proven wrong:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The shared transition between M20, M51, and M1 is 14110.
This transition is *not* in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) of mitochondrial DNA. Thus indicative of shared ancestry rather than randomness. Sun et al.'s theory is not applicable here as he only mentions HVR transitions.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Guess what dumb ass, Malagasy people are heavily Austronesian mixed.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Also, M23 is *NOT* Asian in origin since it is found only in Madagascar and is a rare deep rooted lineage. It isn't found amongst the Asian populations from which Asian descended Madagascar people descend.
Guess what dumb ass, Malagasy are heavily Austronesian mixed.
(2) M23 lineages have an extremely restricted geographic distribution. A survey of all complete mtDNA sequences reported in the literature (>6,700 sequences; http://www.phylotree.org/ webcite) could not detect M23 sequences anywhere outside Madagascar. Moreover, the screening of control region polymorphisms that are diagnostic for M23 against a larger global panel of mtDNA control region variants confirmed that the M23 control region motif is indeed rare, as only four individuals shared the 13 control region diagnostic mutations for M23 (Additional file 1). Although comparative analysis based only on the first hypervariable sequence (HVS1) reveals a few more individuals that share the four HVS1 mutations of M23 (16223, 16263, 16311 and 16519), these nucleotide positions are known to be fast-mutating and recurrent, and consequently cannot be considered diagnostic of haplogroup M23 (Additional files 1, 2 and 3). Interestingly, three of the four individuals sharing the 13 control region mutations for M23 are African Americans who are likely to trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, although no M23 carriers have been detected on mainland Africa itself (Additional files 2 and 3). The fourth individual is from the Arabian Peninsula (Dubai, United Arab Emirates), a region placed in Southwest Asia which has a long history of interactions with Africa, probably dating back to the dispersal of modern human along the southern dispersal route [3,4,6]. The modern population of Dubai has a genetic composition strongly influenced by female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, as well as migration from South Asian populations [32], which have the highest observed levels of basal M lineages [2,29,31,33]. Although we have only detected four individuals potentially affiliated to M23, they are likely to descend from an African and/or Southwest Asian source, again placing the origin of M23 somewhere between these two regions. Unfortunately, lacking genealogical records for these four individuals, we cannot confirm their maternal African origin, and without additional mtDNA coding region information, the link with African populations remains highly speculative. However, if confirmed, this finding would suggest that the origin and dispersal of M23 lineages is restricted to the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions.
Are African Americans highly Austronesian admixed you stupid jackass? Why hasn't M23 been found abundantly among Austronesian speakers?
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Madagascar was uninhabited until recently. The contemporary populations of Madagascar were formed in the last 1,500 to 2,000 years by the admixture of African and Southeast Asian (Austronesian) populations. M23 seems to be restricted to Madagascar as it was not detected anywhere else. M23 could have been brought to Madagascar from Asia where most deep rooted subclades of Haplogroup M are found. M23 is also linked to M75, which has been found in China.[2] Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
It is not known yet with certainty either way that M1 is African or Asian in origin; however, the likely hood that it is African is far greater. There are three hypothesis for the origin of M1:
1. M1 evolved through an independent mutation.
2. M was present in the ancient population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
3. The presence of M1 in Africa is the result of a back-migration from Asia which occurred sometime after the Out of Africa migration.
^ Note 2 out of the 3 hypothesis state African origins. Why is this? Simply because the entire M clade as well as N is derived from L3 which we know for certain is African.
The same can be said for M23. By the way, archaeology as well as folk traditions show that Africans have inhabited Madagascar well before the arrival of Asians.
A New Deep Branch of Eurasian mtDNA Macrohaplogroup M Reveals Additional Complexity Regarding the Settlement of Madagascar
Ricaut et. ales.
The earliest archaeological evidence on the island is controversial. Hippopotamus bones with cut-marks and evidence of human processing from iron tools have been found in the Mikea Forest, in Madagascar's Southwest, dating to ~2 kyr [21]. Later archaeological sites, now containing pottery, have been variously dated from the 4th to the 8th centuries AD. Therefore, the island seems to have been visited at least intermittently by Africans prior to the arrival of Austronesian-speaking maritime travellers from Island Southeast Asia sometime around the 7th or 8th centuries AD [18,19,22-25]. This settlement pattern is further supported by dated faunal extinctions, as well as palaeoenvironmental evidence of deforestation indicated by a decrease in tree pollen and an increase in small charcoal pieces in soil sediments
The ethnographic evidence is equally complex. All Malagasy today speak a Malayo-Polynesian language, also called Malagasy, which is most closely related to a language spoken in the Barito River basin of Southeast Borneo, Indonesia [18,19,22]. Malagasy contains a number of loan words of African Bantu origin, but these have apparently been borrowed from the Swahili/Sabaki group of languages, and thus form part of the cultural exchange that took place during more recent Indian Ocean trade [22,27]. However, oral tribal traditions suggest the earlier presence of a people called Vazimba, who spoke a non-Malagasy language. Pockets of people still known as Vazimba exist among the island's fishermen, and their non-Malagasy lexicon has also been argued to be of Bantu origin [23,26]. Furthermore, two groups of hunter-gatherers still live on the island - the Beosy and the Mikea, who inhabit the forests of Southwestern Madagascar, and who were recognised as having African affinity as early as the 16th century [24,26]....
As noted before, the position of M23 at the root of macrohaplogroup M indicates that M23 is a deep branch of the human mtDNA phylogeny. The length of the M23 branch suggests either strong genetic drift effects or that this cluster may encompass further branches yet to be identified. Indeed, a relatively small proportion of mtDNA variation has been surveyed in the putative areas of origin of M23. Therefore more extensive sampling is needed to refine the overall geographic distribution and branching structure of this clade, However, the fact that this clade has no specific link to other known branches within macrohaplogroup M suggests a deep-rooted ancestry, possibly tracing back to the Out of Africa event. Such a deep root is also shared with many other lineages that emerged independently from the root of macrohaplogroup M. These lineages are especially prevalent in South Asia [2,29-31]. This general pattern has been interpreted as supporting the view of a rapid dispersal of modern humans at the time of the out-of-Africa exodus, followed by a long period of isolation resulting in non-overlapping distributions of derived M haplogroups in relict or isolated populations/regions along the dispersal route. Thus, our results suggest that the Mikea hunter-gatherers and Vezo fishermen of Madagascar descend, if only in very small part (≤4%), from one such deep-rooted, isolated population.
As Charles has cited..
M23 lineages have an extremely restricted geographic distribution. A survey of all complete mtDNA sequences reported in the literature (>6,700 sequences; http://www.phylotree.org/ webcite) could not detect M23 sequences anywhere outside Madagascar. Moreover, the screening of control region polymorphisms that are diagnostic for M23 against a larger global panel of mtDNA control region variants confirmed that the M23 control region motif is indeed rare, as only four individuals shared the 13 control region diagnostic mutations for M23 (Additional file 1). Although comparative analysis based only on the first hypervariable sequence (HVS1) reveals a few more individuals that share the four HVS1 mutations of M23 (16223, 16263, 16311 and 16519), these nucleotide positions are known to be fast-mutating and recurrent, and consequently cannot be considered diagnostic of haplogroup M23 (Additional files 1, 2 and 3). Interestingly, three of the four individuals sharing the 13 control region mutations for M23 are African Americans who are likely to trace their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, although no M23 carriers have been detected on mainland Africa itself (Additional files 2 and 3). The fourth individual is from the Arabian Peninsula (Dubai, United Arab Emirates), a region placed in Southwest Asia which has a long history of interactions with Africa, probably dating back to the dispersal of modern human along the southern dispersal route [3,4,6]. The modern population of Dubai has a genetic composition strongly influenced by female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, as well as migration from South Asian populations [32], which have the highest observed levels of basal M lineages [2,29,31,33]. Although we have only detected four individuals potentially affiliated to M23, they are likely to descend from an African and/or Southwest Asian source, again placing the origin of M23 somewhere between these two regions. Unfortunately, lacking genealogical records for these four individuals, we cannot confirm their maternal African origin, and without additional mtDNA coding region information, the link with African populations remains highly speculative. However, if confirmed, this finding would suggest that the origin and dispersal of M23 lineages is restricted to the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions.
The presence of the M23 clade among the Malagasy Vezo fishermen and Mikea hunter-gatherers provides additional mtDNA evidence upon which a better picture of the colonization of Madagascar can be built. However, open questions remain, including the geographic origin of M23, and the time and mode of its spread into Madagascar. These outstanding issues can only be partially investigated with the currently available data. The M23 lineage is not present in any of the putative parental populations of the Malagasy (Africans and Island Southeast Asians), suggesting either its absence from these populations, or that it is so exceedingly rare there that it has not yet been detected [17,37-40] (Additional files 1 and 2). Indeed, relative to their genetic diversity, Africans and Southeast Asians have not been widely sampled, although Borneo (the likely source of the Austroensian expansion into Madagascar) has been relatively well surveyed, and a high number of published mtDNA sequences (n = 157) is currently available from this area [38]. Nonetheless, M23 lineages have not been identified in this region. Even if M23 is as rare in Borneo as it is in Madagascar (1.9%), the probability of it being detected there is high: P(M23 | n, freq) = 0.95. However, the extreme population structure of Indonesia [41] may mean that M23 is restricted to populations that have not yet been sufficiently sampled, or at all.
The identification of four individuals of African and Southwest Asian origin who share the 13 diagnostic control region mutations for M23 pinpoints these regions as potential sources for M23. Whilst, the data does not allow us to make clear phylogeographic inferences regarding M23 origin, our results may provide some evidence of ancient contacts across the Indian Ocean involving Africa, Madagascar and South Asia. The deep-rooted topology of M23 and its age estimate coupled with its very restricted distribution within Madagascar, makes unlikely its presence in the island as a result of recent contacts, and is more in agreement with the patterns of human contacts across the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean, which pre-dated the Austronesian expansion into Madagascar [24,27].
Whilst more extensive screening of the putative parental populations in Africa and South Asia will help to ascertain the geographic origin and distribution of M23, our initial examination of Malagasy mtDNA diversity suggests that the origin of M23 lineages may be found in the circum-Arabia/northwestern Indian Ocean regions and that their arrival to Madagascar may pre-date the Austronesian settlement of the island. This lends support to oral tribal traditions stressing the earlier presence of non-Malagasy speakers (e.g. Vazimba; [23,24,26]) and re-emphasizes the importance and complexity of the circum-Arabia and Indian Ocean corridor since the late Pleistocene.
As you can see the jury is still out, but in no way has the African origin hypothesis been refuted.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Oh and welcome back Jaimie (Perahu). LOL
For those of you who don't know Jaimie is one of our regular trolls here on Egyptsearch. I could tell it's him since he appears to be knowledgeable at first but his anti-African bias and close-mindedness always gets the better of him. Like how he jumps the gun here with claiming that M1, M23 etc. are all Asian period and nothing says otherwise! LOL
Funny how he always complains of "Afrocentrics" yet he is using an African moniker (Perahu) and is on a website about an African culture (Egypt). What's sad though is the fact that this mentally mixed up guy is himself of mixed African descent. With being a white blonde 'octoroon' and all. LOL Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: My questions haven't been answered and if M and N securely arose in Asia as you claim please point out the Asian population that has the ancestral L3 lineage that both M and N arose on, to date it hasn't been found in any population in Asia, yet we do know that L3 is African in origin and that both M and N are really both downstream Le lineages.
Correct thanks. We shall now await perahu and his finding of ancestral L3 in Asia. If not (which we know he can't) then the Asian origin is the one that is flimsy.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
^ i dont think he is trolling per se. Not yet at least. If he has new data to prove his argument then by all means.............
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^I agree 'astenb'. If M1 is connected to M20 and M51 via 14110 that does seem to strengthen his argument.
^ Knowing Jaimie, he always starts out decent but after a while becomes the troll he is when he isn't able to prove his point.
Even if his argument is strengthened that does not mean he won it.
Let's remember that more work has be done, there are still more people to be sampled both in Africa and in Asia to fill in the gaps of geographic distribution as well as phylogentic branching.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 1. M1 evolved through an independent mutation.
This idea was made popular by Quintana-Murci et al. 1999. You guys sure love to use outdated information. They lacked complete mtDNA scans back in those days and many erroneous phylogenetic trees have been corrected.
Regarding parallel evolution once again, this is what Sun et al. actually said:
quote:A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, that is, 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India.
In other words, only a few mutations in the hypervariable control-region (HVR) are suspected of parallel evolution. Nowhere does he mention that the non-HVR transitions M1 shares with M (10400, 14783, 15043) are due to parallel evolution nor does any other scientist.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Okay, so what about hypothesis 2?
M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Okay, so what about hypothesis 2?
M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
It appears that you've just had your ass handed to you and you still come back for a beating. lol....Must be a glutton for punishment.lol
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^Dje you or Explorer or truthcen had a map floating around a while back. What is the geographical distribution of M1 in Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Okay, so what about hypothesis 2?
M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Until an ancestor to M1, or 'proto M1' is found in Asia, an African origin is in no way out of the question.
Zaharan-M1 has its highest frequencies in Ethiopia. Maybe there is a picture in this thread. Not sure why Perahu dismissed the frequencies of M1 in Africa as if it doesn't matter Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^If you have it, what is the breakdown of mtDNA in Egypt? We know the long centuries of Arabization and other influences have wrought much change, but do you have anything on the distribution of MtDNA in general?
ON his bog, Dinkenes with a seeming regretful tone, laments that Haplogroup "M" does not tie neatly into "racial" groups, including his "Ethiopids..": lmao..
"Haplogroup M is one of those mtDNA lineages which does not correspond well to present-day racial groups, as it spans Mongoloid, Indian Caucasoid and Paleoindian, as well as Ethiopid and various Caucasoid groups in lesser frequency." Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Actually, I do. Gave a study to astenb quite recently on the mtDNA of Egyptians. I'll look through my Sendspace and make a thread or post it here.
All of this "id" nonsense sounds retarded lol... Just add an 'id' to a population/ethnicity and try to make a race lol... makes no sense. His statement is also contradictory, since M spans so many populations, all with distinct features, how can they be races? Hence the reason why genetics cannot support the idea of biological races in the human species
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by L': Until an ancestor to M1, or 'proto M1' is found in Asia, an African origin is in no way out of the question.
It has already been discovered in Asia.
quote:Originally posted by L': Zaharan-M1 has its highest frequencies in Ethiopia. Maybe there is a picture in this thread. Not sure why Perahu dismissed the frequencies of M1 in Africa as if it doesn't matter
Haplogroup frequencies have very little to do with the origins of haplogroups. All M carrying Africans are just the dead end of the M family, the end of the line. Every human has a mouth and an asshole. The M carrying Africans are the assholes.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Post it. I haven't seen anything on an ancestral M1 in Asia.
Frequencies DO play a role in pin-pointing geographic location. How could you say otherwise?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Frequencies DO play a role in pin-pointing geographic location.
They do, and indeed no one is saying that frequencies by themselves determine origin. Too often when it comes to African peoples though frequencies are invoked using a double standard as Keita notes below and in his comments on Frigi's recent Berber study. No doubt though, further DNA research will refine the Haplogroup M in question.
Still, Asian origin or no, Haplogroup M was derived from dark-skinned tropical peoples. It appears in only trivial proportions in Europe or the Middle East, but it shows up very clearly in Africa. Europe or the "Middle East' seem to have donated little of M1 to Africa, undermining once again hopes of inflowing "wandering Caucasoids" on this score. Its appearance in Arabia is derived from East Africa.
Emergence of Haplogroup M occurred among dark-skinned tropical peoples – QUOTE:
"Macaulay's research team analyses the Orang Asli, the aboriginal inhabitants of the Malay Penisula, while Thangaraj and colleagues focused on the Andamese islanders, called 'Negritos' (for the characteristic phenotype of dark skin), both groups performing a large number of complete mitochondrial sequences in order to clarify the origin of these populations. They discovered that both Orang Asli and Andaman islanders harboured ancient mtDNA lineages, belonging to the founder haplogroups M, N, and R, with coalescence ages of ~44,000 to ~63,000 years, which were considered the legacy of an early diffusion of modern humans out of Africa. Thus, there was a single rapid out of Africa dispersal (~70,000 years ago) involving a founding group of individuals harbouring the L3 mtDNA haplogroup and starting from the Horn of Africa towards the Persian Gulf and further along the tropical coast of the Indian Ocean to Southeast Asia and Australasia. During this coastal migration, haplogroups M, N and R evolved and the ancestral L3 was lost. Moreover, this scenario is strongly supported by palaeoenvironmental evidence, confirming that a northern migration would have been impossible during the glacial period extending from ~70,000 to 50,000 years ago."
Haplogroup M not found much in Europe or the Middle East, but in Africa, M1 appears - QUOTE.
"The richest basal variation in the founder haplogroups , N and R is found among the southern stretch of Eurasia, particularly in the Indian subcontinent (Figure 1), suggesting a rapid colonization along the southern coast of Asia.. Western Eurasians, in contrast with Southern Asians, eastern Eurasians, and Australasians, have a high level of haplogroup diversity within the haplogroup N and R, but lack haplogroup M also entirely (Figure 1)... Although Haplogroup M differentiated soon after the out of Africa exit and it is widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and India) and Oceania, there is an interesting exception for one of its more than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this lineage is mainly limited to the African continent with peaks in the Horn of Africa." --Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
Misleading "Eurasian" label flagged by some scholars - QUOTE: "The historical linguistic data reported earlier would apply in the case of maternal lineages as well.. it is not likely that the "northern" genetic profile is simply due to "Eurasians" having colonized supra-Saharan regions from external African sources. It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called "Eurasian" are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin. As a term "Eurasian" is likely misleading, since it suggests a single locale of geographical origins. This is because it can be postulated that differentiation of the L3* haplogroup began before the emigration out of Africa, and that there would be indigenous supra-Saharan/Saharan or Horn-supra-Saharan haplotypes. More work and careful analysis of mtDNA and the archeological data and likely probabilities is needed. Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion." --Keita, A, Boyce, A. (2005) Genetics, Egypt, and History... History in Africa, 32, 221-246
“..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“ -- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Haplogroup M not found much in Europe or the Middle East, but in Africa, M1 appears - QUOTE.
"The richest basal variation in the founder haplogroups , N and R is found among the southern stretch of Eurasia, particularly in the Indian subcontinent
--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi . (2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the Sciences and in the Humanities. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
Enrique seems a little confused n this one.
Then he goes asking form M geography but already has his 'centric propaganda graphics nice and finished up
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Moles on Wikipedia are busily writing about "caucasian" Ethiopians and are removing more recent scholarship. Administrator collaborator "dab" as usual is on the job to help them. But their cynical "biodiversity" game ultimately fails when the whole picture is put on the table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Ethiopia is patrolled by the moles playing up the "caucasian" line. They rely on Wilson 2001, but Wilson's sampling is skewed s shown below, creating an Ethiopian "match" with 'Nordic' Norwegians, etc
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
On the topic of Ethiopian Y chromosomes:
quote:Y-chromosomal SNPs are used in phylogenetical studies because in a paternal lineage the Y-SNP “set” is only changed by mutational events. Lower migration rates of males in the past in local scale cause different haplogroup distributions in closed populations. In the actual haplogroup tree (ISOGG 2008) 20 main haplogroups (A-T) are listed.
The Y-chromosomes of 173 unrelated males from Ethiopia (most of them contain to the Amharics) were analysed. For typing, a set of 40 SNPs, which include most of the main haplogroups of the actual phylogenetical tree, were used in combination with the Multiplex PCR Kit (Qiagen) and the SNaPshot™ Multiplex Kit (Applied Biosystems). The ABI PRISM™ 310 Genetic Sequenzer was used for allele calling.
The distribution of the five detected main haplogroups was calculated against the total number of the 173 analysed samples. 40 males (23.1% of analysed samples) belong to the haplogroup A*. 88 samples (50.9%) were related to haplogroup E*, 43 (24.9%) to haplogroup J* and one sample (0.6%) to each haplogroup F* and G*.
Source: Distribution of Y-chromosomal SNP-haplogroups between males from Ethiopia
M. Kohla et al. (2009)
Sorry, forgot about your request on Egyptian mtDNA:
quote:Egypt’s location and amalgam of past ruling populations mixing with the Egyptians has resulted in a heterogeneous make-up. The haplotype breakdown of this dataset is predominantly European (67.5%), followed by African (20.6%) and Asian (11.9%). The breakdown is as follows: European origin (n = 187) including R0 and its subgroups (31.4%), I (3.2%), J (7.6%), K (4.7%), T (9.4%), U (9.0%), W (0.7%), X (1.4%); African origin (n = 57) including L0 (2.2%), L1 (2.5%), L2 (3.6%), L3 (12.3%); and Asian origin (n = 33) including M (6.9%), N (5.1%).
Source: Mitochondrial control region sequences from an Egyptian population sample
Not surprising I suppose that a large percentage of their makeup would be European. The authors also attribute their heterogeneous genetic profile to the invasions of the past (i.e., past ruling populations)
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^Not surprising indeed for today's modern Egypt- "ruling populations" at the tail end of the dynastic era and after would include Arabs especially, various other Middle Easterners (like the Ottomans), and Greeks, Romans, Persians etc in varying proportions. Can you recheck file? It says "Not a valid PDF". Also what is there sampling like? For some reason, in several studies sampling is drawn mostly from northern Egypt near the Mediterranean as "representative" of all of Egypt. And is the "M" detected M1 or more an India/Pakistan/East Asia-type breakdown?
Except for the migration of "M" groups, such as Pakistani oil workers in the modern era, or travellers mercenaries, traders etc in an earlier time, a number of studies show very little native "M" in Europe or the Middle East. I wonder about the "M" detected
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
The linked worked fine when I tried it, here is another download:
They sampled 277 unrelated individuals from Alexandria, Egypt.
Nice roundup on M and M1.
Some more data:
quote:Results and Discussion African Ancestry of Australian and NG Y and mtDNA Types.
We carried out a phylogenetic analysis of our Australian and NG complete mtDNA sequences and compared the resulting branches with the Asian mtDNA tree, as known so far (Fig. 2). The result confirms that both Australian and NG maternal lineages consist exclusively of the known out-of-Africa founder types M and N, dated to ≈50–70,000 years ago, and their derivatives (24–27, 29, 30, 33–37). This mitochondrial finding is mirrored in our Y chromosome data (Fig. 3), where we observe the paternal lineages in Australians and New Guineans to fall into either branches C or F, proposed to be the earliest out-of-Africa founder types (31). These results indicate that Australians and New Guineans are ultimately descended from the same African emigrant group 50–70,000 years ago, as all other Eurasians. In other words, these data provide further evidence that local H. erectus or archaic Homo sapiens populations did not contribute to the modern aboriginal Australian gene pool, nor did Australians and New Guineans derive from a hypothetical second migration out of Africa (38), nor is there any suggestion of a specific relationship with India (9, 21, 22).
quote: " Results and Discussion African Ancestry of Australian and NG Y and mtDNA Types.
We carried out a phylogenetic analysis of our Australian and NG complete mtDNA sequences and compared the resulting branches with the Asian mtDNA tree, as known so far (Fig. 2). The result confirms that both Australian and NG maternal lineages consist exclusively of the known out-of-Africa founder types M and N, dated to ≈50–70,000 years ago, and their derivatives (24–27, 29, 30, 33–37). This mitochondrial finding is mirrored in our Y chromosome data (Fig. 3), where we observe the paternal lineages in Australians and New Guineans to fall into either branches C or F, proposed to be the earliest out-of-Africa founder types (31). These results indicate that Australians and New Guineans are ultimately descended from the same African emigrant group 50–70,000 years ago, as all other Eurasians. In other words, these data provide further evidence that local H. erectus or archaic Homo sapiens populations did not contribute to the modern aboriginal Australian gene pool, nor did Australians and New Guineans derive from a hypothetical second migration out of Africa (38), nor is there any suggestion of a specific relationship with India (9, 21, 22)."
--Toomas Kivisild et al. 2007
^Great reference- confirming Spinozzi above. So these tropical peoples then from Africa migrated and developed Haplogroup M, moving along the tropical coast of southern India on into SE Asia and Australia. I can see now why Keita disputes such labels as "Eurasian." These Out of Africa migrants were roaming expansively over a wide area, defying easy 'racial' or ethnic checkboxes such as 'Eurasian'. And where would the 'European" in 'Eurasian" come into play since Haplogroup "M" has very little appearance in Europe? We do know however that physically, they were tropically adapted, tropical Africans, who developed another genetic variant as tropical peoples, who in turn may have "back-tracked" or returned into Africa to join up again with still other sub-Saharan tropical types on the continent, that they earlier had left behind.
So we have:
"Beginning"- dark-skinned tropical variant & L3
"Middle" - dark-skinned tropical variant & "M"
"Return/end" - dark-skinned tropical variant & M1
mutated into other trop
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:''The presence of haplogroup M1 in Northern Egypt has been associated with a back migration from Asia entering not from the southern route of the ‘Out of Africa’ proposal but from the Mediterranean Sea or the Levantine corridor [43–46]. Since Alexandria is located on the Mediterranean coast, it is not surprising this study observed a high frequency (6.5%, representing 18 individuals) of the Asian origin mtDNA haplogroup M1.''
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Your point?
We are all aware that M1 has been 'associated with back-migration. Gonzelez et al. 2007 tried to make this correlation with U6, a failed attempt I may add.
These forensic science articles are good for their raw data, nothing else. In one paper they said hg is E is west African in origin
Still waiting for you to post the article that states an ancestor to M1 has been found in Asia...
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^I have no problem per se with the development of a genetic variant outside Africa, but I wonder at what point the L3 OOA migrants cease being 'African' and become 'Asian.' If 'Asian' applies because they are not physically in Africa, fine. But why is there a different rule if M1 developed in Africa? Why do some keep calling it 'Asian' or even Eurasian, when native Hap M is rare in Europe? Or if the oldest M1 is in Africa, why keep calling it 'Asian'? Why the double standard anytime Africa is involved?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL @ Jaimie's desperation.
quote:Originally posted by A Simpleton: It appears that you've just had your ass handed to you and you still come back for a beating. lol....Must be a glutton for punishment.lol
Don't confuse me for YOURSELF, microcephalic! LOL Jaimie is far more competent a debater than you can ever dream of but in the end, even he loses to us as well.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Dje you or Explorer or truthcen had a map floating around a while back. What is the geographical distribution of M1 in Africa?
I think it was Explorer who posted that. I've been looking for that distribution map myself.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
I think Perahu is the same person who tried to debate Explorer here:
Look in the comments. He does the same thing, i.e., mentioning M51 etc.,
I'm fairly certain they are the same person. Either way, they were humiliated... BAD!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, such is the fate common to Jaimie.
At least he can put up a half-decent fight unlike the retards running around this forum like a Simpleton and Lyinass. Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
^ thats not jamie, that dude on the other site is actually pretty cool. See some of his blogs on African mtdna Here
In any case nearly ALL of the M1 in Africa is of the Ethiopian m1a Sub type, particularly that found in the Nile Valley. I dont see what the big issue is.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb: ^ thats not jamie, that dude on the other site is actually pretty cool. See some of his blogs on African mtdna Here
In any case nearly ALL of the M1 in Africa is of the Ethiopian m1a Sub type, particularly that found in the Nile Valley. I dont see what the big issue is.
The funny hypocritical part is that these idiots want M1 to be Eurasian, but reject E3b being African.
Posted by Grumman (Member # 14051) on :
Enrique:
quote:''I have no problem per se with the development of a genetic variant outside Africa, but I wonder at what point the L3 OOA migrants cease being 'African' and become 'Asian.' If 'Asian' applies because they are not physically in Africa, fine. But why is there a different rule if M1 developed in Africa? Why do some keep calling it 'Asian' or even Eurasian, when native Hap M is rare in Europe? Or if the oldest M1 is in Africa, why keep calling it 'Asian'?
Why the double standard anytime Africa is involved?''
Well said.
Posted by Pulp (Member # 15591) on :
Worldwide stone worshipping for whatever reason is nothing new, but worshipping black Meteorites seems to be a Semitic thingy. Would be interesting if someone could post similar traditions among Africans or Asians in recent times.
Wiki "Baetylus" and "Elagabalus (deity)"
Coin showing the sacred black rock of the Romanized Semitic cult of Elagabalus.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
data: QUOTE: "Interestingly, all the haplogroups (B2a1a, R1b1 and E1b1b1c) that differentiate the Egyptian Berbers from the Moroccan and Algerian Berbers have been previously found in sub-Saharan Africa: B2a1 is a quite uncommon haplogroup distributed in a large sub-Saharan area (Cruciani et al. 2002) ; R1b1 is particularly frequent in the central Sahel (Cruciani, et al. 2002), but has also been found in eastern Africa at low frequencies (Cruciani et al. 2004). B2a1a and E1b1b1e were never reported in Northern Africa, while R1b1* was observed at low frequencies in Egypt (Luis et al. 2004). The Siwa Berbers MSY gene pool turns out to be mainly composed of lineages usually found in sub-Saharan Africa. The Arabic-speaking populations of Northern Africa seem to be characterized by higher frequencies of haplogroups currently found in the Middle East."
--D'Enrico, F and Homberg J. (2009). Becoming eloquent: advances in the emergence of language, human cognition. John Benjamin: p. 134
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Anyways, the point is.. M originated in Asia, not Africa.
Your point is empty. You are just emotionally vested in not having M1 originate on African soil.
quote:
ALL basal M lineages are Asian, NONE are African to date.
That's a boldface lie. Here are the facts, again from my earlier notes:
"The only hg L3 clade that has *both* mentioned restriction and insertion sites [@ np 10394 and @ np 10397], is the African L3a "AF24" haplotype. This haplotype is a downstream clade of L3, but it is upstream vis-a-vis haplogroup M. This clade therefore serves as a "prototype" clade for the entire M haplogroup."
This IS a prototype clade for M1, and it's only been located in Africa!
Furthermore:
"the lineages necessary to give rise to M1 are all present in Africa, as exemplified by the 10873C [emphasis added] marker [Semino et al.] at the RFLP position 10873, which transcends M macrohaplogroup, having been identified amongst L1, L2 and L3 clades; on the other hand, all non-African non-M clades, which are all essentially ultimately derivatives of the African L3 superclade, have 10873T [with emphasis]. This suggests that African M1 and the Asian M macro-haplogroup derive from an earlier bifurcation event that took place in Africa, which transcended L3."
In summation, Africa more than sufficiently has lineages in place that could have served as M1's ancestor, while Asia has NONE!
quote: On top of that, M1 is not even basal and shares derived mutations and forms a monophyletic clade with M20 and M51 (both exclusive to Asia). Your Sun et al. reference is outdated.
Saying that "M1 is not even basal" is a red herring. On the bit about M51 and M20, here's what I pointed out elsewhere, to another individual suffering from the same mentality as yourself:
"First of all, all recent publications don't even agree on the nomenclature standards, making matters worse. You can take a cue from Chandrasekar et al.'s (2009) note of that fact."
And...
"PhyloTree", only links the M51 clade to the M1 family via the singular 14110 nucleotide position. This does not make this clade M1's sister clade any more than it makes any other south Asian-specific M clade M1's sister clade. This nucleotide substitution has been implicated in a few other distinct M clades and not just a single other clade, and in fact, appears to be nothing more than a recurrent mutation. In other words, the substitution doesn't appear to be a UEP. It is found in for example, singular extreme sub-clade of one M monophyletic unit and then it appears as a basic transition in another M monophyletic unit. This suggests recurrent mutation, as opposed to a unique event." - end quote.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb:
In any case nearly ALL of the M1 in Africa is of the Ethiopian m1a Sub type, particularly that found in the Nile Valley. I dont see what the big issue is.
Not quite; the last I checked, the Maghrebi M1 clades were not sub-clades of the Ethiopian M1a. Maghrebi clades in large measure fall into fairly distinct branches, if not sub-branches, from the Ethiopian counterparts. This is yet another evidence that M1 emerged on African soil. The so-called "Middle East" however, only has clades that appear to be derivatives of either the Maghrebi examples, or the Ethiopian examples; it is the only region where these distinct M1 clades co-exist. One would expect either Ethiopian or Maghrebi M1 distribution to be duplicitous of the "Middle Eastern" distribution pattern, if they were the derivatives of the "Middle Eastern" examples rather than vice versa.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: That's a boldface lie. Here are the facts, again from my earlier notes:
"The only hg L3 clade that has *both* mentioned restriction and insertion sites [@ np 10394 and @ np 10397], is the African L3a "AF24" haplotype. This haplotype is a downstream clade of L3, but it is upstream vis-a-vis haplogroup M. This clade therefore serves as a "prototype" clade for the entire M haplogroup."
This IS a prototype clade for M1, and it's only been located in Africa!
Furthermore:
"the lineages necessary to give rise to M1 are all present in Africa, as exemplified by the 10873C [emphasis added] marker [Semino et al.] at the RFLP position 10873, which transcends M macrohaplogroup, having been identified amongst L1, L2 and L3 clades; on the other hand, all non-African non-M clades, which are all essentially ultimately derivatives of the African L3 superclade, have 10873T [with emphasis]. This suggests that African M1 and the Asian M macro-haplogroup derive from an earlier bifurcation event that took place in Africa, which transcended L3."
In summation, Africa more than sufficiently has lineages in place that could have served as M1's ancestor, while Asia has NONE!
Utter crap.
None of those samples carry any of the current M defining transitions (np 10400, 14783, 15043, 489). You guys are way behind, stuck somewhere in the early 2000s!
Those samples have never been re-sampled using FGS and are *NOT* recorded in Genbank (the largest mtDNA database) and are also *NOT* placed in the official phylogenetic tree. This outdated crap doesn't cut it.
There are no basal M lineages in Africa at all.
M is an Asian lineage, period.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Utter crap.
This is the sort of reaction one can expect from a character who cannot correctly read such a rudimentary thing like a haplogroup notation that is meant to convey what's included or excluded.
quote: None of those samples carry any of the current M defining transitions (np 10400, 14783, 15043, 489). You guys are way behind, stuck somewhere in the early 2000s!
None of what samples? Be specific, dufus! If you are referring to the prototype clades, then what does a proto-M1 ancestor need to carry M1 characteristic markers for? Use your head; that's right, there's nothing therein to use.
quote: Those samples have never been re-sampled using FGS and are *NOT* recorded in Genbank (the largest mtDNA database) and are also *NOT* placed in the official phylogenetic tree. This outdated crap doesn't cut it.
Explain what is "outdated" about the nucleotide transitions brought to light [re: 10873 ancestral state, restriction @ np 10394 and insertion @ np 10397, and characteristic M1 hypervariable package] with your elusive updated counter-information--backed up by nucleotide specifics. No study to date comes to mind, which challenges these laid out nucleotide specifics; not a whimper. You know one? Then present it. Hollowly screaming "outdated" here and there doesn't cut it; that is worthless than the crap that you scorn.
quote:
There are no basal M lineages in Africa at all.
M is an Asian lineage, period.
That's the sort of emotional answer a delusional moron is capable of offering in response to hard-felt evidence.
I offer stuff heavily loaded with substance, and all you can do is helplessly scream back "outdated", with no stain of demonstration whatsoever. That is not academic of you.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. The mixed-up fool keeps repeating "M1 is Asian" like a mantra yet, we have yet to find ancestral M1* lineages in Asia. In the meantime we know ancestral proto-clade L3 is African and is the mother of all mitochondrial clades outside of Africa including M*
He has yet to disprove hypothesis 2 for African origins:
M was present in the ancient African population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
Saying M1 is Eurasian because of its resemblance to Eurasian M does not make it so. The same is said with U6.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
The guy was banking on the presumed M1 link with M51 and M20, and the idea that the latter two are generally restricted to Asia, so as to claim an Asian origin for M1. I effortlessly cut short the lifeline of that argument, and so, all he/she can now do is to emotionally scream 'outdated' for every piece of hard irrefutable evidence cited.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
And asking Perahu to cite a source for his claims is just as useless, as he just spams that single image and directs us to Phylotree....
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Explorer
You do not even understand the very basics of human mitochondrial genetics. None of your extremely *outdated* samples (using early incomplete techniques) were in any shape or form basal M lineages, idiot.
You do not even understand how basic phylogenetics works. What a clown.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Phylotree, just like ISOGG, are primarily compiled from published work, although in the latter's case, there is sometimes reference to "private communication" with authors of some of the published work. The point being, that it should not be taken for granted that these mediums are error proof. It requires the expenditure of energy to do additional research to be able to pinpoint certain weaknesses in stuff posted on these sites; unfortunately, some are too under-educated and lazy to do that. For its part, the ISOGG site puts out this disclaimer:
ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) is not affiliated with any registered, trademarked, and/or copyrighted names of companies, websites and organizations. This Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree is for informational purposes only, and does not represent an endorsement by ISOGG. Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Phylotree automatically updates from the Genbank database (which is the largest mtDNA database used by researchers worldwide).
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Explorer
You do not even understand the very basics of human mitochondrial genetics.
Yet I'm able to read rudimentary haplogroup notations that you fock up. Swell.
quote:
None of your extremely *outdated* samples (using early incomplete techniques) were in any shape or form basal M lineages, idiot.
"Extremely outdated" samples that you can't identify. What a cumhead!
quote: You do not even understand how basic phylogenetics works. What a clown.
You are the butt of circus clown. Go and read the ABCs of haplogroup notation, and squash the unwarranted ignorance.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
None of those samples are basal M, this is the minimum requirement to be part of M:
They are *NOT* M.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Yet I'm able to read rudimentary haplogroup notations that you fock up. Swell.
This is the gibberish that Perahu posted in another discussion:
None of those samples are basal M, this is the minimum requirement to be part of M: They are *NOT* M.
The dummy does not know what he/she is talking about, as vindicated by the fact that he/she cannot even specify the samples in question, and why they are purported to be "basal".
The moron cannot even see that M1's ancestor is EXPECTED to not carry the downstream motifs that characterize M1. Dummy, that is why the clade would have to be M1's ancestor!
Ps: All this ancestor needs to have, is the most basic transition that characterizes all haplogroup M, and not just M1, and this crucial information is precisely what has been presented!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Afronut,
K has two branches: LT and K(xLT). So K(xLT and K(xLT)) basically means K*
Perahu already ignored the request for ancestral L3 in Asia on the previous page, which of course only serves as indication of his novice level as he obviously doesn't know the relevance of L3 to this question.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The dummy does not know what he/she is talking about, as vindicated by the fact that he/she cannot even specify the samples in question, and why they are purported to be "basal".
The moron cannot even see that M1's ancestor is EXPECTED to not carry the downstream motifs that characterize M1. Dummy, that is why the clade would have to be M1's ancestor!
Ps: All this ancestor needs to have, is the most basic transition that characterizes all haplogroup M, and not just M1, and this crucial information is precisely what has been presented!
Retard..
If it was ancestral to M we would at least find one or two shared transitions with M. But none of those transitions mentioned in that very *outdated* study are currently in use as defining transitions of M.
You are pathetic.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
butthead, your notation doesn't make sense, and if you were literate on the subject, you would have instantly recognized this, and avoided making a butt of yourself.
LT is every lineage that is under LT haplogroup. K(xLT) is already telling this moron that this haplogroup excludes LT, yet he/she goes onto to write this:
K(xLT and K(xLT))
What a dolt!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Gorilla..
^See the ISOGG tree.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
If it was ancestral to M we would at least find one or two shared transitions with M. But none of those transitions mentioned in that very *outdated* study are currently in use as defining transitions of M.
You are pathetic.
Fuckhead, what do you think these were? Decorations?....
re: 10873 ancestral state, restriction @ np 10394 and insertion @ np 10397, and characteristic M1 hypervariable package!
I already advised you to go and get acquainted with the ABCs of haplogroup notation.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Gorilla..
^See the ISOGG tree
Gorilla pussybooger, there is NO such stupid notation to be found in ISOGG.
K(xLT and K(xLT)) is a figment your neanderthal skull.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The AF24 RFLP haplotype is *NOT* equal to modern full mtDNA sequences and can *NOT* be confidently associated with the current phylogenetic tree.
Your shitty 90s reference doesn't cut it. Sad Afronuts are stuck in the 90s!
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
The AF24 RFLP haplotype is *NOT* equal to modern full mtDNA sequences and can *NOT* be confidently associated with the current phylogenetic tree.
This is part of the piling evidence that we are discussing with a douchebag on the subject.
It is general knowledge that all M haplogroup have the 10873C transition, unlike the polymorphic T-transition of the hg N.
It is general knowledge that unlike hg N, hg M has a restriction site at np @ 10394 and an insertion @ np 10397; this is a unique trait of hg M, as it doesn't share these sites with haplogroups outside the M family, aside from the Af24 haplotype!
It's beyond doubt that this clown is even familiar with the unidentified study that he/she keeps referring to as "outdated".
Ps: Edited!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
I am not interested whatsoever in discussing extremely outdated techniques (RFLP haplotype mtDNA clustering have been incorrect multiple times).
Unless you can come up with FGS basal M types in mainland Africa, you ain't got jack sh*t.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
pussybooger, you are not interested in RFLP, which you wish away as "outdated", because it exposes how typical of a dullard you are in molecular genetics. In this case, the unique RFLP sites serve as UEPs which punch a wide gaping hole in your Asian-origin myth. These are very real DNA polymorphisms as other site of the mitochondrial DNA. So, of course, you are going to complain about RFLP without reason, which is only another method to effectively sequence other sites, that would otherwise not be easily sequenced just by PCR amplification.
We don't even have an idea of what is supposed to be "outdated", since your dumbass refuses to specify what samples and what study you're weeping your ass out about.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
They can not be used to infer phylogenetic relationships confidently.
I will request the scientists who published that paper to re-sequence those samples using FGS. I am 5000% sure they will end up being L3e or something and not basal M.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Unless you can come up with FGS basal M types in mainland Africa, you ain't got jack sh*t.
Asking for your rubber stamp, is as moronic an idea as a college graduate asking a bum who cannot read ABCs to validate his/her graduating thesis.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
They can not be used to infer phylogenetic relationships confidently.
If this is true, then your task should be easy: Produce other non-haplogroup M clades, aside from the haplotype AF24 that has the very same restriction and insertion polymorphisms as hg M!
quote:
I will request the scientists who published that paper to re-sequence those samples using FGS. I am 5000% sure they will end up being L3e or something and not basal M.
This is what your hillbilly buck tooth should have been doing all along; getting yourself educated by asking people in the know, instead of making a ASS of yourself.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
In the meantime, asking for re-sequencing of say, this, will tell the researchers that they have a full blown moron on their hands, as the nucleotide information are pretty much self-explanatory:
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
When will you learn.
outdated adj \ˌau̇t-ˈdā-təd\ Definition of OUTDATED : no longer current : outmoded
Current:
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
When will you learn.
I'll never learn why nature has made you so irreparably stupid. The diagram you are posting is not refuting or phasing out the preceding diagram, where basic nodes are concerned.
You are protesting out of emotion, not out of clearheadedness. Psychiatry is in order.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
You fail to grasp even basic genetics. Good day, sir.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Haha, what cop-out ASS. The plumb retarded kook posts stuff, like the diagram above, whose workings elude him/her. The latter diagram in fact reinforces the one preceding it, if anything.
Ps: You keep nattering to yourself like a bum, about some supposed "outdated" unspecified entity. I preempted your hidden crackpot ambiguities by posting a diagram from a study, which I suspect you are alluding to but which I also know you clearly haven't bothered reading or understanding, showcasing information that will be very hard to misconstrue or confuse oneself with.
You unthinkingly claim and emotionally protest that RFLP is outdated; it is only outdated in your fairyland. Certain sites, particularly sequences flanked by indels, can only effectively be isolated and located by RFLP; so, why on earth would any clear thinking scientist abandon RFLP sequences? Using your logic, very recent publications from the likes of Tishkoff et al would not have made use of indels. But of course, just like your kooky "K(xLT and K(xLT)) notation, your kooky idea that the most effective sequencing technique for isolating indels is "outdated", is a figment of your hallucinations into fairyland.
Other than a moron, who in their right mind would dismiss indels as any less real of a DNA polymorphism or markers as any other DNA polymorphism?! Blinding yourself to these polymorphisms won't make them simply vanish or disappear, as they are every bit DNA as any other. You are a total fuckhead, that's what!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
*Meanwhile in the real world* most actual scientists agree with that M is Asian. Nobody really cares about the opinion of a few lunatic Negroes on an Egyptian forum.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
^Your true colors are shown. "Negroes" LMAO! Funny.
On RFLP, I am positive that it is still used. From what I've read, it is time consuming and expensive, but it IS still used.
M- About this... there is still no agreement on whether or not M arose in Africa or Asia. Either way, it developed amongst Africans. Although, M may have arisen shortly after the OOA expansion, you'd have to explain the lack of L3 in Asia (could this be explained by drift?)
Anybody have comments on Keita's statement that haplogroups could have arisen in different places (or something of that sort)
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: *Meanwhile in the real world* most actual scientists agree with that M is Asian. Nobody really cares about the opinion of a few lunatic Negroes on an Egyptian forum.
Caught in another lie coming outta your ass. Publications, and very recent ones at that, have already been cited maintaining the African origin. That itself is a sideshow, as your illiterate ass has not been able to refute or even slightly dent anything posited here about the African origin of the M clade. Nobody cares about the emotional outcries of some kooky armchair albino asshole on ES forum, who cannot even read something as rudimentary as a haplogroup notation, let alone anything that warrants slightly more thinking. Get your ass back in school, you primary school-reject; starting with getting your ABCs right.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO
Does anybody else notice the embarrassing irony?? He is not only a bias proponent of an Asian origin and is against an African origin, but the fool makes ad-hominem remarks of not only "Afronut" but even racial epithets like "gorilla" and "negro", yet in the mean time his screen name is an AFRICAN one!
From ancient Egyptian texts, Perahu was a chieftain of Punt. Here is is shown with his wife Ati.
Euronutjobs are something else, aren't they? I agree with Explorer, they need psychiatric help. Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Nobody really cares ...
...except you who keep coming back because of an addiction to beatdowns.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Nobody really cares ...
...except you who keep coming back because of an addiction to beatdowns.
There hasn't been any beatdown. He is right.lol....
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Right about what exactly? I'm 100% sure that you don't understand any of this, lol.
Posted by L' (Member # 18238) on :
Feel free to pick up where Perahu quit, Simple Girl Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Simpleton is just as delusional as Perahu if she thinks her "champion" is somehow winning the argument. Explorer pretty much set him straight, but I doubt she is intelligent enough to understand everything he stated.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Simpleton is just as delusional as Perahu if she thinks her "champion" is somehow winning the argument. Explorer pretty much set him straight, but I doubt she is intelligent enough to understand everything he stated.
There wasn't any beatdown if that is what you're implying. I understand enough to know that.lol....If you or any of the others think you have an absolute grasp on the origins of M1 in East/North Africa, then you need to present your paper to the world.Go ahead I dare you.lol
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ You obviously don't understand anything judging by your posts here and everywhere else in this forum. As far as our grasp on the subject where do you think we get are info from but from published papers?! From our asses, like you? LOL
Do you understand what all of the below implies?
"the lineages necessary to give rise to M1 are all present in Africa, as exemplified by the 10873C marker [Semino et al.] at the RFLP position 10873, which transcends M macrohaplogroup, having been identified amongst L1, L2 and L3 clades; on the other hand, all non-African non-M clades, which are all essentially ultimately derivatives of the African L3 superclade, have 10873T [with emphasis]. This suggests that African M1 and the Asian M macro-haplogroup derive from an earlier bifurcation event that took place in Africa, which transcended L3."
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Notice how M decreases in frequency the more inland you go in the Horn of Africa.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^Funny... you were the one who said frequencies have very little to do with pinpointing geographic origins.
In any event, M1 has the highest frequencies in Ethiopia...
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Notice how M decreases in frequency the more inland you go in the Horn of Africa.
However truly indigenous lineages of similar age do not show this discrepancy.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:However truly indigenous lineages of similar age do not show this discrepancy.
^Your conclusion that this makes M **non-indigenous** to Africa is based on what principle exactly?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Read p79-81
The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia: Paleoenvironments, Prehistory ... By Michael D. Petraglia, Jeffrey I. Rose
^ And your point is? We've always made the argument that there was early population continuity between Africa and Arabia to the point that Arabia might as well be considered an extension of Africa. How does that prove Eurasian origins for M1?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^ Indeed. M1 is rare or not present in either India or East Asia. It is rare in the Middle East and in Europe. Its presence in Arabia is relatively small, derives from an East African background. The bottom line is that M1 is found almost nowhere else natively but in Africa. And in any event, M1 is a marker of tropical peoples. If it evolved in Asia, then it evolved among dark-skinned tropical peoples - the so-called kinky-haired "Negritos" migrating out. Any "backflow" scenario is rightfully that of dark-skinned tropical people, not cold climate adapted Europeans or "Middle Easterners."
Europeans and Middle easterners do not have the tropical body shape of these dark peoples. Hence Egyptians cluster with "Negrito" types (like Melesanians) in terms of a tropical body plan and with other tropical African derivatives, not Europeans or Near Easterners. Assorted "bio-diversity" and "heridatarian" types can keep spinning all the labels they want- the central fact of the tropical peoples remains however. New DNA studies will no doubt further refine origins and dispersals even more, but they won't change this bottom line.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Negroid phenotype of those Negritos developed when they arrived in tropical Southeast Asia, it did not develop in dry Western Asia.
M is more common in Caucasoid-like East Africans than it is in Negroid-like East Africans.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:M is more common in Caucasoid-like East Africans than it is in Negroid-like East Africans
There isn't a correlation between haplogroup and phenotype, as it relates to genotype, not phenotype. Or else you would see people carrying the same haplogroup having similar phenotypes, but this is not the case. As M1 has it's highest frequencies in Ethiopia, and Ethiopians are very diverse phenotypically, then your statement hardly makes any sense
quote:However truly indigenous lineages of similar age do not show this discrepancy.
I would like an answer from you for the question Sundjata asked. This is based on what principle?
quote:Read p79-81
The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia: Paleoenvironments, Prehistory ... By Michael D. Petraglia, Jeffrey I. Rose
Posted here before Lioness, the full text has for that matter. You were also part of that discussion.
Posted by A Simple Girl (Member # 18316) on :
It's not just the fact that M1 appears most exclusively among northeast Africans. Where is M among Africans?
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: It's not just the fact that M1 appears most exclusively among northeast Africans. Where is M among Africans?
Ethiopia is in East Africa (sub-Saharan Africa), where M1 reaches the highest frequencies, the frequencies are significantly decreased in north Africa.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl:
It's not just the fact that M1 appears most exclusively among northeast Africans. Where is M among Africans?
It has become fashionable in some quarters to just pass personal guesswork off as fact, like simple-minded demonstrates, and to be given a pass. Your guesswork that M1 appears exclusively amongst northeast Africans is a flight of fantasy. M1 in fact has its greatest frequency on the African continent than anywhere else. The western African, particularly Maghrebi, M1s are NOT derivatives of Ethiopian M1s!
You have rookies like Perahu trying to hold Africa to standards that no other place is expected to meet, requiring that M1 be present all over the continent, so as to be declared "African" by that wacky crackpot standard. By those standards, Asian-specific hg N and M clades will also cease being markers of those areas. By that standard, even hg E1b1a would also cease being African, and likewise hg L0d or L0k, which are noticeably prevalent in KhoiSan language speaking populations and eastern-southeastern Africans.
FACT: M1 is present from western to eastern Africa, and from the Maghreb to northeastern Africa. M1 clades of western Africa are generally distinct from the eastern African counterparts, and so whether Ethiopia has the highest concentration of M1 clades or not, is really of little significance in the broader scheme of things.
To answer simple-minded's question: hg M exist as far south as Tanzania, alongside M1!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: To answer simple-minded's question: hg M exist as far south as Tanzania, alongside M1!
Only in considerably lower frequencies, less diversity, and mainly among Northeast African (Cushitic) admixed groups.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: It's not just the fact that M1 appears most exclusively among northeast Africans. Where is M among Africans?
All over Africa web page Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
The Negroid phenotype of those Negritos developed when they arrived in tropical Southeast Asia, it did not develop in dry Western Asia.
What utter bullsh1tt. Dark skin, and tropical limb proportions did not have to wait for "tropical SOutheast Asia" to appear. The tropics DO include dry, desert areas, along with wet humid ones. Duh... And the founding L lineages themselves originate in tropical "sub Saharan" Africa.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
The tropically adapted osteology and phenotype of SE Asians are plesiomorphic features that were retained due to coastal hugging and remaining within tropical environments. This much is clear as they carry the same alleles that Africans do which encode for increased melanin production.
What evidence can Perahu present that the tropical phenotypes of southeast Asian's ancestors were ever selected against?
Zarahan makes a good point that even if M was the result of a back-migration, it was likely by people who looked similar to SE Asians and OOA-Africans. The "Caucasoid" nonsense spouted by Perahu is irrelevant. We know no such creature exists outside of the confines of the Caucasus mountains and even then, nobody in this period of time would have been from Europe as Europe hadn't been fully populated by the time of a proposed back-migration.
I don't understand what people mean by "Caucasoid", especially extrapolating that far into the past. It is illiterate nonsense.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Yep... and I'm pretty sure that type of terminology has been completely dropped, at least as far as genetics goes. Not sure why some insist on using it, when not even the articles they reference employ it.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: All over Africa web page
Well, well, well, if it isn't the infamous Clyde Winters.
Your paper on M1 was absolutely rubbish and would never been published in a reputable journal so you had to use some crappy second-rate journal. I suppose that journal must be really desperate for any articles that will "fill space", as well as their pockets (yes, you have to pay a fee to get an article published in that journal.)
You are not even a geneticist but a joke of an Afrocentrist. No reputable scientist is ever going to cite your hogwash 'study', loser.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^Well, well, well, as usual you back out and fail to clarify. Don't put down other people as an attempt to forget the responses made to you... not like you'll publish an article any time soon at this rate
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. We all know Clyde is a pseudo-scholar so why bother with an easy target like him than to address the actual findings from valid scholars that we discuss. As for Clyde, all I gotta say is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: The tropically adapted osteology and phenotype of SE Asians are plesiomorphic features that were retained due to coastal hugging and remaining within tropical environments. This much is clear as they carry the same alleles that Africans do which encode for increased melanin production.
What evidence can Perahu present that the tropical phenotypes of southeast Asian's ancestors were ever selected against?
Zarahan makes a good point that even if M was the result of a back-migration, it was likely by people who looked similar to SE Asians and OOA-Africans. The "Caucasoid" nonsense spouted by Perahu is irrelevant. We know no such creature exists outside of the confines of the Caucasus mountains and even then, nobody in this period of time would have been from Europe as Europe hadn't been fully populated by the time of a proposed back-migration.
I don't understand what people mean by "Caucasoid", especially extrapolating that far into the past. It is illiterate nonsense.
I don't understand why the fool is using terminology that anthropology has considered debunk and outdated decades ago! Yet the same fool loves to whine and cry "outdated" about what? A (still valid) bio-molecular technique that's been improved in the last few years??!! LMAO
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The Negroid phenotype of those Negritos developed when they arrived in tropical Southeast Asia, it did not develop in dry Western Asia.
What utter bullsh1tt. Dark skin, and tropical limb proportions did not have to wait for "tropical SOutheast Asia" to appear. The tropics DO include dry, desert areas, along with wet humid ones. Duh... And the founding L lineages themselves originate in tropical "sub Saharan" Africa.
Correct. Where does the idiot think tropical deserts come from. It doesn't matter anyways since humankind began in tropical Sub-Saharan Africa anyway!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pair'o'hu:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: To answer simple-minded's question: hg M exist as far south as Tanzania, alongside M1!
Only in considerably lower frequencies, less diversity, and mainly among Northeast African (Cushitic) admixed groups.
And pray tell what makes these groups Northeast African or Cushitic "admixed"?? Also, Cushitic like all branches of Afrasian are indigenous to Africa anyway, unless you desperately cling to the outdated Asian origin for the language phylum. Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
There is a difference between being in the tropical zone and actually having a tropical climate.
Western Asia and Northeastern Africa do not have a tropical climate. One should not expect them to have tropical Negroid phenotypes.
Negroid-like phenotypes of the Australoid peoples developed in Southeast Asia, not Western Asia.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Western Asia and Northeastern Africa do not have a tropical climate. One should not expect them to have tropical Negroid phenotypes.
What do you consider NE Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Negroid-like phenotypes of the Australoid peoples developed in Southeast Asia, not Western Asia.
So you're under the impression that tropical environments produce "Negroid like" phenotypes?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: All over Africa web page
Well, well, well, if it isn't the infamous Clyde Winters.
Your paper on M1 was absolutely rubbish and would never been published in a reputable journal so you had to use some crappy second-rate journal. I suppose that journal must be really desperate for any articles that will "fill space", as well as their pockets (yes, you have to pay a fee to get an article published in that journal.)
You are not even a geneticist but a joke of an Afrocentrist. No reputable scientist is ever going to cite your hogwash 'study', loser.
It is obvious you have never visited sites that publish articles written by geneticists. You have to pay the cost of publication in just about any on-line journal that publish genetics articles. The average cost is $1200 ( $800 if you get a discount )-$1800.
.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: What do you consider NE Africa?
Regions bordering the Gulf of Suez, the Red Sea, and the Gulf of Aden.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: So you're under the impression that tropical environments produce "Negroid like" phenotypes?
Yes, given enough time (in evolutionary terms), they will develop Negroid-like phenotypes.
Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: So you're under the impression that tropical environments produce "Negroid like" phenotypes?
Yes, given enough time (in evolutionary terms), they will develop Negroid-like phenotypes.
Ok, considering you know about where anatommically modern humans arose it's safe to say you know it was in equatorial tropical Africa, correct?
So if I were then to say when A.M.H. left Africa they already possessed a Negroid like phenotype being that they were coming from tropical Africa you'd agree?
So why do you feel the need to inject the phenotype of south Asians or Oceanics as being developed outside of Africa when they came from a tropical environment to begin with, which according to you produces the "Negroid like" phenotype?
You understand how this makes no sense, right?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
So how would you explain away the fact that there is more phenotypic diversity in tropical Africa than out?
The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region. The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids. This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids.
Please cite your sources.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
What's similar to Eurasians?
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
You know what Perahu btw, can you address the below...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: If East Africans supposedly received thin noses and lips from outside admixture with Eurasians, how come these Eurasians didn't pass on the skin genes for lighter pigmentation as is obvious amongst more northern Africans where the SLC24A5 derived allele is significantly present in geographically proximate populations in north Africa and the middle east?
The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%).---Norton, Kittles et al.
And how come the limb proportions of these Africans were not affected in any way instead are still considered to be extremely tropically adapted?
This makes no sense at all to have come from Eurasians, and once these questions are considered and answered the idea of "Caucasoid" becomes apparently delusional.
Instead what makes perfect sense is that since Africa, specifically in this case sub-Saharan east Africa being home to anatomically modern humans for 200,000 years would've evolved in situ, due to environmental pressures and adaptations and such traits as thin noses and lips were actually given to the people who descend from them, as in all non Africans alike who at one time all resembled their African ancestors.
The above man (Paul Kagame) and his people were in the past considered to be "Caucasoids", and thought to be migrants from East Africa carrying E1b1b (E3b) since East Africans and E1b1b were erroneously classified as "Caucasoid" as well, but come to find out these individuals (Tutsis) actually carry predominately E1b1a (E3a) and not E1b1b (E3b) and are predominately African on the mtdna.
Destroying the "Caucasoid" race.
The following quote from Carelton Coon is talking about the man above I posted, and his people, the Tutsi, who are purely African no outside non African admixture nada, zilch.
So where did the Tutsis receive their thin features from? So much for Africans needing non African admixture for said diversity.
The Story of Man Carleton Coon
p 196-197 Borzoi Books, 1965
Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Tutsi are not purely Sub-Saharan African (especially not of the Central African variety), they have detectable levels of Eurasian affinity. The Hima, close kin of the Tutsi, have been sampled by Xing et al. 2010 and showed elevated affinity with Eurasians compared to other Sub-Saharan Africans.
YRI stands for Yoruba
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
First of all the Tutsi are not the Hema nor vice versa one does not account for the other. But nice try.
Secondly what are the lineages associated with this Eurasian ancestry in the Hema ethnic group?
Thirdly, please address the following which I have posted in response to you and which seems to have been ignored...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
So how would you explain away the fact that there is more phenotypic diversity in tropical Africa than out?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb] The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids.
Please cite your sources.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
What's similar to Eurasians?
Add to the above what makes the "look" more similar to Eurasians, I.e., what sources are you going by that says this "look" is Eurasian to begin with?
Perahu please address the above as I give you the same respect in addressing everything you post and I do/will not avoid anything that you post..
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Perahu
What proof do you have that the Tutsis have eurasian genes???
From what I remember is that the Tutsi are majority hap group e3a(E1b1a) Now if you have proof they are mixed and not pure Africans please show the Forum.
The problem I have with Perahu is that he thinks that Africans with fine features are mixed, when that is not the case. Fulani of Nigeria are Africans with fine features, but they have e3a at 100%.
If eurasians gave Africans fine features Perahu, Then why did they not give them lighter skin color also?? .
Peace
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: If East Africans supposedly received thin noses and lips from outside admixture with Eurasians, how come these Eurasians didn't pass on the skin genes for lighter pigmentation as is obvious amongst more northern Africans where the SLC24A5 derived allele is significantly present in geographically proximate populations in north Africa and the middle east?
Evidence of selection in the pigmentation genes SLC24A5 in Europeans, East Africans, and Southwest and Central Asians and SLC45A2 in East Asians and Native Americans.
M. P. Donnelly, W. C. Speed, A. J. Pakstis, J. R. Kidd, K. K. Kidd Department of Genetics, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, CT.
Skin pigmentation is one of the most recognizable human phenotypes and tends to vary on a latitudinal cline, even within Europe. The derived alleles of missense SNPs in SLC24A5 (rs1426654) and SLC45A2 (rs16891982) have both been implicated in light skin pigmentation among Europeans. We have collected data for these markers from 4474 individuals in 107 population samples. The derived alleles of both SNPs were observed at high frequencies throughout Europe, though the derived allele of rs16891982 is found at lower frequencies in Southern Europe. The derived allele of rs1426654 was also found at moderate to high frequencies 2 to 100% in East Africa, Southwest Asia, and Central Asia, whereas the derived allele of rs16891982 was seen at frequencies of 0 to 58% in these populations. At SLC24A5 a single allele of a 13-SNP (including rs1426654) haplotype covering ~146 kb accounts for ~95% of the chromosomes in Europe. At SLC45A2, we saw no significant LD around rs16891982. Using the REHH test, we found strong evidence of selection for the derived allele of rs1426654 in Europe as well as East Africa, Southwest Asia, and Central Asia where it had not previously been seen and were able to confirm the evidence of selection in East Africa using nHS. We saw no or very weak evidence of selection for rs1689192 using REHH or nHS among European and nearby populations. We did find previously unidentified evidence of selection in East Asians and Native Americans at a SNP about 15 kb upstream of SLC45A2. The allele showing evidence of selection at this SNP is found at high to moderate frequencies throughout the world except in Europe where it is virtually absent. Given its location it is likely part of or in LD with an upstream regulatory element upon which selection is/was acting. Taken together these results suggest several conclusions about the evolution of skin pigmentation in humans. First two SNPs shown to play a role in pigmentation in a region of the world can show different distribution patterns Second, it suggests that light skin among Europeans evolved both by means of natural selection and neutral factors. Finally, the evidence of selection in the upstream region of SLC45A2 in East Asians and Native Americans, suggests that though light skin pigmentation likely evolved separately in regions where light skin pigmentation is predominant, the evolution at some genes may have occurred independently through different variants. Funded in part by NIH Grant GM57672.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
^^Which East Africans and ethnic group in each country respectively were being sampled here?
In any case 2-100% is really not saying anything when compared to 60-100% in north Africa where we can actually see the people are pigmentation-ally akin to Europeans whereas majority of East Africans are not.
And as we see in east Africans their limb proportions are still tropically adapted in comparison to the geographically proximate populations in north Africa wherein their limb proportions are actually intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans which coincides with the gene flow from Europe into geographically proximate populations in north Africa.
quote:However given that the boundary between north and sub-Saharan Africa is an arbitrary one and the sample in question comes from a site just below the Niles 3rd cataract, the samples assignment to either North or sub-Saharan African could be justified. For clarity, other north African samples have been excluded from the present analysis; for the majority of limb and body proportions, they are intermediate between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans.---Early modern human evolution in Central Europe: the people of Dolní ... By Erik Trinkau
The same can not be said for East Africans.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Derived genotype of SLC24A5 (Associated with lighter pigmentation and West Eurasian ancestry) has a high frequency in Ethiopians and to a lesser degree in Kenyans and Tanzanians. [1] Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
^^That really doesnt say much if you actually took my question and whole post into account, as each of these countries have many different ethnic groups wherein one has nothing to do with another.
I.e., if one ethnic group in Ethiopia has an allele it doesn't equate to all of Ethiopia having this allele, understand?
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Perahu please stop avoiding...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: First of all the Tutsi are not the Hema nor vice versa one does not account for the other. But nice try.
Secondly what are the lineages associated with this Eurasian ancestry in the Hema ethnic group?
Thirdly, please address the following which I have posted in response to you and which seems to have been ignored...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
So how would you explain away the fact that there is more phenotypic diversity in tropical Africa than out?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb] The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids.
Please cite your sources.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb]This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
What's similar to Eurasians?
Add to the above what makes the "look" more similar to Eurasians, I.e., what sources are you going by that says this "look" is Eurasian to begin with?
Perahu please address the above as I give you the same respect in addressing everything you post and I do/will not avoid anything that you post..
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
You are getting desperate, face it... you lost.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: You are getting desperate, face it... you lost.
No it just doesn't work how you wish it did.
The point I'm making here is relevant since there are many different ethnic groups in Ethiopia which do not account for one another..
Ex...
This child above of the Gumuz people of Ethiopia do you think this allele is highly prevalent amongst them?
and as I noted...
In any case 2-100% is really not saying anything when compared to 60-100% in geographically proximate populations in north Africa where we can actually see the people are pigmentation-ally akin to Europeans, whereas majority of East Africans are not.
And as we see in east Africans their limb proportions are still tropically adapted in comparison to the geographically proximate populations in north Africa wherein their limb proportions are actually intermediate between tropical Africans and Europeans which coincides with the gene flow from Europe into geographically proximate populations in north Africa.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Ethiopian samples were Beta Israel dummy, not Nilo-Saharans. The point is that these West Eurasian genes are present in East Africans, I know that it is a total nightmare for you Afrocentrists.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
See that's the point, a sample from a certain ethnic group does not account for the whole of Ethiopia, let alone ALL of East Africa where we see the phenotype you're attributing to Eurasians.
As anyone with eyes can see there is no similar pigmentation to Europeans as one can note in comparison to geographically proximate populations in north Africa where this allele ranges from 60-100%.
It has been noted that the hot/dry climate of tropical Africa produces elongated phenotypes.
Such as Somalians, Tutsis etc...
Wherein the broad faced phenotypes are adapted to hot/humid environments.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
You still failed to explain why the Hema (very closely related to the Tutsi) cluster so far away from indigenous Central Africans (Pygmies) or their Niger-Congo ancestors from Nigeria (YRI). While they deviate towards Europeans.
Based on genome-wide SNP data.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Hema are not Tutsis. I've asked you what are the lineages associated with this Eurasian ancestry in the Hema ethnic group? I'm still waiting.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Hema are not Tutsis.
They are very similar, in fact, I am willing to bet that actual unmixed Tutsis will be even closer to Europeans than them while Pygmies and Nigerians cluster far away from them.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
But yet they are not the same people. And you will keep on being asked why/how are Hema similar to Europeans genetically, please answer.
I.e., what lineages draw them closer to Europeans?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: I am willing to bet that actual unmixed Tutsis will be even closer to Europeans
Unmixed Tutsis = what? What evidence do you have that the Tutsis are mixed in the first place?
In the future, when you say outrageous things and expect people to believe you, have the genetic or whatever data to go along with your claim please.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: You still failed to explain why the Hema (very closely related to the Tutsi) cluster so far away from indigenous Central Africans (Pygmies) or their Niger-Congo ancestors from Nigeria (YRI). While they deviate towards Europeans.
Based on genome-wide SNP data.
SSAs are more variable than any population in the world so its only natural that some SSAs will be more or less closer to some non-African populations than to some other African populations. Are you assuming that Eurasians are pure without any mixture while Africans only receive foreign mixture? Don't get set up for a strawman argument.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Btw Perahu come on, you seriously don't think you're going to get away from not answering the below do you?
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
So how would you explain away the fact that there is more phenotypic diversity in tropical Africa than out?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb] The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids.
Please cite your sources.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb]This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
What's similar to Eurasians?
Add to the above what makes the "look" more similar to Eurasians, I.e., what sources are you going by that says this "look" is Eurasian to begin with?
Perahu please address the above as I give you the same respect in addressing everything you post and I do/will not avoid anything that you post..[/QUOTE]
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: SSAs are more variable than any population in the world so its only natural that some SSAs will be more or less closer to some non-African populations than to some other African populations.
Which is simply because non Africans are a sub-set of Africans is the reason of this clustering of certain Africans with Eurasians
I certainly hope this clustering is not what Perahu is referring towards, as he specifically made mention that the Hema have Eurasian ancestry.
So I await these specific lineages associated with this Eurasian ancestry, but it seems that Perahu may not be able to answer.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Are you assuming that Eurasians are pure without any mixture while Africans only receive foreign mixture?
No, he's claiming that Africans with elongated features received such as a consequence of admixture with non Africans.
Which as of yet, has failed to prove.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: Don't get set up for a strawman argument.
Oh he's already set himself up once he said tropical climates equate a "Negroid like" phenotype. Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: SSAs are more variable than any population in the world so its only natural that some SSAs will be more or less closer to some non-African populations than to some other African populations. Are you assuming that Eurasians are pure without any mixture while Africans only receive foreign mixture? Don't get set up for a strawman argument.
Their elevated affinity with Eurasians is because these Negro-Hamites (Tutsi/Hema/Maasai) have Eurasian ancestry through Ethiopians.
The Tutsi are genetically closer to Europeans than the average African-American is.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
^^Oh come on already, when are you going to cite the actual specific genetic data to back up your posts as asked of you? What are the lineages which you're saying link these populations as being closer to Eurasians?
Why are you taking so long?
And also address all of the outstanding posts above that you've ignored, will you?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: these Negro-Hamites )
LOL What era are you living in?
Modern bio-anthropology has long since dropped these terms as they've been shown to be completely misleading.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
There is a difference between being in the tropical zone and actually having a tropical climate.
^^What ignorance.. The thermal requirement for a tropical climate is considered to be an average mean temperature above 18 degrees C for the coldest month. Within this average, tropics are also marked by receiving a large amount of solar radiation throughout the year with no true or distinct winter season. Tropics not only include jungle, but deserts and mountainous highlands as well. The cooler local temperatures of these highlands are still within the overall averages, and are still part of the tropic zone, receiving high levels of solar radiation and not having a thermally depressed winter season. (Reading, Thompson and Millington 1995).
Lowlands - highlands, humidity - aridity, degree of rainfall etc are merely variations within the zone. It's ALL "tropical climate".. duh...
Indigenous Africans with narrow noses and broad noses, loose hair and kinky hair live side by side in these mountainous areas as part of indigenous African diversity without needing any of your beloved "wandering Caucasoids" to explain their looks. Furthermore they all have tropical body proportions which are distinctly genetically encoded.
And NE Africa in case you didn't realize it, falls within the tropic zone. The people leaving this zone ALREADY were tropically adapted. You can't run away from the facts no matter how hard you try.
But even if climate were not a factor, the diversity of Africans still holds as the link shows.
Eurasian ancestry through Ethiopians??? What study states that Tutsi are linked to ethiopians??
Why do you continue to make outstanding statements without any proof??
Please show the forum the genetic data that links Tutsi with Ethiopians. Would love to read this...Last I remember is that the Tutsi ARE a Bantu ethnicity. If this is wrong, post the study that states otherwise.
Peace
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: SSAs are more variable than any population in the world so its only natural that some SSAs will be more or less closer to some non-African populations than to some other African populations. Are you assuming that Eurasians are pure without any mixture while Africans only receive foreign mixture? Don't get set up for a strawman argument.
Their elevated affinity with Eurasians is because these Negro-Hamites (Tutsi/Hema/Maasai) have Eurasian ancestry through Ethiopians.
The Tutsi are genetically closer to Europeans than the average African-American is.
Link? Proof? Tutsis cluster with other Bantus and there's no proof of Eurasian mixture in Tutsis, have you read Tishkoff's study?
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
As this will probably become lost like Perahu may hope, I will instead post this again on this page as it still goes unaddressed...
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: But yet they are not the same people. And you will keep on being asked why/how are Hema similar to Europeans genetically, please answer.
I.e., what lineages draw them closer to Europeans?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: I am willing to bet that actual unmixed Tutsis will be even closer to Europeans
Unmixed Tutsis = what? What evidence do you have that the Tutsis are mixed in the first place?
In the future, when you say outrageous things and expect people to believe you, have the genetic or whatever data to go along with your claim please. [/QB]
Btw Perahu come on, you seriously don't think you're going to get away from not answering the below do you?
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Austronesians currently living in Indonesia have more Northern origins, and so do the Amerindians in South America. If they were to be isolated for an additional 10 kya in the tropics they will look like Negroids. Andaman islanders and Melanesians are fully adapted to these conditions and hence why they look similar to Negroids.
So how would you explain away the fact that there is more phenotypic diversity in tropical Africa than out?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb] The M carrying Out of Africa group stayed in Western Asia for a few thousand years before branching out to the East, the group which migrated back and brought M to the Northeast of Africa probably looked very different from Negroids.
Please cite your sources.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb]This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
What's similar to Eurasians?
Add to the above what makes the "look" more similar to Eurasians, I.e., what sources are you going by that says this "look" is Eurasian to begin with?
Perahu please address the above as I give you the same respect in addressing everything you post and I do/will not avoid anything that you post..[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: SSAs are more variable than any population in the world so its only natural that some SSAs will be more or less closer to some non-African populations than to some other African populations. Are you assuming that Eurasians are pure without any mixture while Africans only receive foreign mixture? Don't get set up for a strawman argument.
Their elevated affinity with Eurasians is because these Negro-Hamites (Tutsi/Hema/Maasai) have Eurasian ancestry through Ethiopians.
The Tutsi are genetically closer to Europeans than the average African-American is.
More so that African Americans? What kind of crack are you smoking making all of these unsupported claims?
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Perahu refuted:
Human Biology / Oct 2000 Phylogenetic relationships of human populations in sub-Saharan Africa by Weber, W, Nash, D J, Motulsky, A G, Henneberg, Maciej, Et al
The Tutsi, with "elongated" features, are physically distinct from the Bantu and may have a separate northeast (Ethiopian?) origin (Excoffier et al. 1987). However, the Tutsi and Bantu show close genetic associations. Additionally, the Tutsi have linguistic affiliations with the Bantu, speaking Kinyarwanda, a Bantu language also spoken by the Hutu (Hiernaux 1975). The close genetic relationship of the Tutsi with the Bantu may be due to admixture or to derivation from the same ancestral stock, and the physical variation may be due to local adaptations that developed after an early split.
Well Perahu???
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Im patiently waiting especially for documentations of the below....
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: So you're under the impression that tropical environments produce "Negroid like" phenotypes?
Yes, given enough time (in evolutionary terms), they will develop Negroid-like phenotypes.
Ok, considering you know about where anatommically modern humans arose it's safe to say you know it was in equatorial tropical Africa, correct?
So if I were then to say when A.M.H. left Africa they already possessed a Negroid like phenotype being that they were coming from tropical Africa you'd agree?
So why do you feel the need to inject the phenotype of south Asians or Oceanics as being developed outside of Africa when they came from a tropical environment to begin with, which according to you produces the "Negroid like" phenotype?
You understand how this makes no sense, right?
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
The original Out of Africa migrants did not have Negroid phenotypes, as they evolved around the very harsh/hyper-arid climates of the Red Sea region.
Surely you have documentations for this? I.e. that A.M.H. did not arise in tropical equatorial Africa.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Still no evidence, just wishful thinking.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
Indeed all it is, is wishful thinking. Perahu as has been asked of you many times now, which lineages mark the Hema as being closer to Eurasians genetically than they are to other Africans?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Of the Hema...
^^Yet you expect people to believe they're closer genetically to white Europeans than African Americans.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^According to the plots within the paper and the supplemental material, the Hema cluster with Nilotics.
Perahu is clearly a liar and I assume just another one of Pontikos' lackeys.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: There is a difference between being in the tropical zone and actually having a tropical climate.
Western Asia and Northeastern Africa do not have a tropical climate. One should not expect them to have tropical Negroid phenotypes.
Negroid-like phenotypes of the Australoid peoples developed in Southeast Asia, not Western Asia.
This was discussed in great detail in another thread. It is apparent that the tropics are characterized by tropical environments. Hence the reason you see authors such as Brace et al. state that limb elongation and pigmentation intensification become apparent in long term residents of the tropics. Tropical temperatures are climates with a mean temperature of 18ş Celsius. Places in Africa that are in the tropics DO reach this standard. Furthermore, authors such as Holliday et al. attribute long limbs in Europe as gene flow from within the tropics-i.e., Africa.
BTW, yes. East Africa IS tropical.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Indeed all it is, is wishful thinking. Perahu as has been asked of you many times now, which lineages mark the Hema as being closer to Eurasians genetically than they are to other Africans?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Of the Hema...
^^Yet you expect people to believe they're closer genetically to white Europeans than African Americans.
The "Hema" he's talking about are *NOT* the same as the Hima?Bahima of Uganda, the one's he thinks he's referring to, Perahu is a jackass, The Hema are Congolese Bantu speaking people, not the same as Tutsis and the Bahima.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Sundjata
Thanks for clearing up the study that perahu claims links Hema with Europeans.
It seems that perahu like most racists likes to make claims without any evidence....Hopefully he does not come back but sadly like most ignorant trolls he will return repeating the same nonsense and then act like his opinion has not been refuted.
Peace
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
MindoverMatter718
Yes, the Tutsi & Hema are closer to white people than the average Tyrone.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: MindoverMatter718
Yes, the Hema are closer to white people than the average Tyrone.
The Hema are Africans without any mixture from Europeans and look closer to the average Tyrone from Brooklyn than George or Sven from Europe, stop lying, the full study contradicts you. And those Hema are not the same as Tutsis and Bahima. You posted no evidence that Tutsi and Hima are closer to white people than African Americans.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Charlie, you posted your results awhile back, you happen to be more Negroid than the average Eastern Bantu despite having European blood.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Charlie, you posted your results awhile back, you happen to be more Negroid than the average Eastern Bantu despite having European blood.
Wrong, I actually clustered genetically with Eastern Bantus you moron, which isn't surprising since I have an East African mtDNA haplogroup.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
You are definitely more Negroid than the average Eastern Bantu. Your European ancestry is pulling you towards the Eastern Bantus. Without your European ancestry you would not cluster with them.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: You are definitely more Negroid than the average Eastern Bantu. Your European ancestry is pulling you towards the Eastern Bantus. Without your European ancestry you would not cluster with them.
Yeah whatever, you made the same lame claim on racialreality's forum. Easten Bantus don't have European ancestry so you're refuted.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
There are millions of Eastern Bantus in Africa who are genetically closer to Europeans than you are even though you have European and Indian ancestry. As Djehutu would say: LOL Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: There are millions of Eastern Bantus in Africa who are closer to Europeans than you are even though you have European and Indian ancestry. As Djehutu would say: LOL
Jaime, stop trolling, in this diagram I'm Af034, are you still going to make that retarded claim?:
Sure, the Eastern Bantus are closer to Europeans than I am, lol, what a retard you are, Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Ever heard of Fst? Some clusters are more closely related while others are more distant from each other.
On the plots you posted in your own thread you were more Negroid than Eastern Bantus. LOL Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Ever heard of Fst? Some clusters are more closely related while others are more distant from each other.
On the plots you posted in your own thread you were more Negroid than Eastern Bantus. LOL
Not only are you a trolling retard you're colorblind, the Eastern Bantus like the Luhya and Bantus from Kenya are way more African than I am you jackass, what draws me closer to eastern Bantus is the shared ancestry that I and Eastern bantus have with Sandawe, I even share a mtDNA haplogroup thats very frequent in Sandawe.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Face it, you are blacker than people in Uganda. Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Face it, you are blacker than people in Uganda.
I have more Eurasian ancestry than eastern bantus but I'm blacker than them, what a retard you are, even when evidence is facing you.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
The Tutsi are not admixed with Eurasians at all.
Xing et al. state quite clearly that the Hema are closely related to the other Nilotic sample, as they state the following:
quote:Haplotype diversity
To standardize the population sample sizes, we combined several closely related populations into population groups and excluded remaining populations that had fewer than 20 individuals (see Table 1 for details). The combined population groups are: Nilotic (Alur and Hema), Bantu (Nguni, Pedi, and Sotho/Tswana), Daghestani (Stalskoe and Urkarah), Mala/Madiga (AP Madiga and AP Mala), and Tongan/Samoan (Tongan and Samoan). Then, we randomly chose 20 individuals from each population group to equalize the sample sizes. The genome was divided into consecutive 100 kb windows, and the number of SNP loci in the dataset was determined for each window. Windows with fewer than 10 loci in the final dataset were excluded. For windows containing more than ten SNPs, we calculated the haplotype heterozygosity [26] in each population using the MATLAB Population Genetics & Evolution Toolbox [27].
--Xing et al. 2010
So explain how the Hema, who are closely related to the Alur are closer to Europeans? They aren't. And neither are the Tutsi who are practically a Bantu subset
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': The Tutsi are not admixed with Eurasians at all. As a matter of fact, they hardly even have any East African ancestry
Xing et al. state quite clearly that the Hema are closely related to the other Nilotic sample, as they state the following:
quote:Haplotype diversity
To standardize the population sample sizes, we combined several closely related populations into population groups and excluded remaining populations that had fewer than 20 individuals (see Table 1 for details). The combined population groups are: Nilotic (Alur and Hema), Bantu (Nguni, Pedi, and Sotho/Tswana), Daghestani (Stalskoe and Urkarah), Mala/Madiga (AP Madiga and AP Mala), and Tongan/Samoan (Tongan and Samoan). Then, we randomly chose 20 individuals from each population group to equalize the sample sizes. The genome was divided into consecutive 100 kb windows, and the number of SNP loci in the dataset was determined for each window. Windows with fewer than 10 loci in the final dataset were excluded. For windows containing more than ten SNPs, we calculated the haplotype heterozygosity [26] in each population using the MATLAB Population Genetics & Evolution Toolbox [27].
--Xing et al. 2010
So explain how the Hema, who are closely related to the Alur are closer to Europeans? They aren't. And neither are the Tutsi who are practically a Bantu subset
The authors made a mistake on the language of the Hema, they speak two languages depending on where they live, Lendu which is the language of their Central Sudanic speaking neighbors or Hema, a dialect closely related to the Bahima of Uganda.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
Come on jamie, why spend some much time talking nonsense when you can be learning?
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by astenb: Come on jamie, why spend some much time talking nonsense when you can be learning?
His claim that Aframs are more African genetically than Eastern Bantus is retarded.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: There are millions of Eastern Bantus in Africa who are genetically closer to Europeans than you are even though you have European and Indian ancestry. As Djehutu would say: LOL
Still waiting for the useful idiot to back up this claim.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^What an ignorant and retarded statement made by Perahu LOL!! I posted a recent 2011 article here recently that shows genetic homgeneity between Eastern and Western Bantu populations contradicting a split scenario. Peraho fails... again
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
Perahu took another beatdown. LOL!!!!
He thinks that if he can make the whole of East Africa "caucasoid", the door will be open for him to make the Ancient Egyptians caucasoids too.
What a loser!!!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^^ ROTFLMAOH
Yes. That seems to be popular tactic of Euronuts. They know that Egyptians are part of and continuous to other east African populations so they are left with no choice but to white-wash them or "Eurasianize" them as well.
quote:Originally posted by Pair'o'huy: This explains why Northeast Africans look more similar to Eurasians than other Africans.
You mean Eurasians like these, who carry the oldest Eurasian lineages?
LOL
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: these Negro-Hamites )
LOL What era are you living in?
Modern bio-anthropology has long since dropped these terms as they've been shown to be completely misleading.
My point exactly. Just a couple of pages ago the idiot yells "outdated" to our genetic findings based on RFLP clustering, yet he is using racial terminology that has been debunked decades ago! He is a hypocrite as well as a moron.
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Of the Hema...
The "Hema" he's talking about are *NOT* the same as the Hima? Bahima of Uganda, the one's he thinks he's referring to, Perahu is a jackass, The Hema are Congolese Bantu speaking people, not the same as Tutsis and the Bahima.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^According to the plots within the paper and the supplemental material, the Hema cluster with Nilotics.
Perahu is clearly a liar and I assume just another one of Pontikos' lackeys.
Oh yeah and he's a liar as well and a bad one at that! Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: MindoverMatter718
Yes, the Tutsi & Hema are closer to white people than the average Tyrone.
Ok, well here's your chance to back up what you're saying.
Which genetic lineages are responsible for this close relationship?
From your inability to answer thus far I take it that you have no idea.
Am I correct?
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^His statement wasn't based on yDNA or mtDNA actually. Either way, his own source, which he didn't read, bit him in the a$$
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Indeed all it is, is wishful thinking. Perahu as has been asked of you many times now, which lineages mark the Hema as being closer to Eurasians genetically than they are to other Africans?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: According to the principal component analysis from Xing et al. 2010 the Hema (basically Tutsis) are genetically closer to White Europeans compared to the average African American.
Of the Hema...
^^Yet you expect people to believe they're closer genetically to white Europeans than African Americans.
The "Hema" he's talking about are *NOT* the same as the Hima? Bahima of Uganda, the one's he thinks he's referring to, Perahu is a jackass, The Hema are Congolese Bantu speaking people, not the same as Tutsis and the Bahima.
Lol yup. He was trying to use the Hema who are represented in the plot, as being the Bahima in turn to represent a Tutsi sample as being mixed. What a dunce.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^According to the plots within the paper and the supplemental material, the Hema cluster with Nilotics.
Perahu is clearly a liar and I assume just another one of Pontikos' lackeys.
Bollocks.
Hema (Tutsis) carry on average 14% (some have +18%) of the West Eurasian *Cough cough*.. Caucasoid cluster (see supplements of the Xing paper). Alur had 0%. Unadulterated Negroids like the Dogon, Yoruba etc do not carry these genes.
Tutsis are not native central Africans. The Belgians were correct.
Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
^The chart you posted on the previous page says Hema who are Congolese, and are not to be confused with the Bahima of Uganda who are linked with Tutsi.
From a page out of Mike111's book; Damn boy you're slow!!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Real Tutsis are only going to be more Caucasoid, it's not helping you. LOL Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Real Tutsis
Real Tutsis?
I didn't know there were fake Tutsis to begin with.
Oh my bad I forgot I know, you meant the Hema whom you confused with the Bahima and tried to pass off as Tutsis?!?
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: are only going to be more Caucasoid,
Caucasoid is a term you can't define without discrepancies.
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: it's not helping you. LOL
Surely it isn't helping you ... LOL Posted by MindoverMatter718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Hema (Tutsis) carry on average 14% (some have +18%) of the West Eurasian *Cough cough*.. Caucasoid cluster (see supplements of the Xing paper). Alur had 0%. Unadulterated Negroids like the Dogon, Yoruba etc do not carry these genes .
Specifically what are "these genes" Perahu ? How long are you going to take?
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Real Tutsis are only going to be more Caucasoid, it's not helping you. LOL
Jackass, I've already shown you that Hema are NOT Tutsis, Tutsis speak ONLY the same language as Hutus and not two languages like the real Hema speak, you've already been refuted jackass, still no answers for this:
Human Biology / Oct 2000 Phylogenetic relationships of human populations in sub-Saharan Africa by Weber, W, Nash, D J, Motulsky, A G, Henneberg, Maciej, Et al
The Tutsi, with "elongated" features, are physically distinct from the Bantu and may have a separate northeast (Ethiopian?) origin (Excoffier et al. 1987). However, the Tutsi and Bantu show close genetic associations. Additionally, the Tutsi have linguistic affiliations with the Bantu, speaking Kinyarwanda, a Bantu language also spoken by the Hutu (Hiernaux 1975). The close genetic relationship of the Tutsi with the Bantu may be due to admixture or to derivation from the same ancestral stock, and the physical variation may be due to local adaptations that developed after an early split.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Real Tutsis are only going to be more Caucasoid, it's not helping you. LOL
Then explain the image from Luis et al. I posted. The Tutsi showed no non-African lineages. You think you 'won' somethin even though you can't even address the facts
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz':
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Real Tutsis are only going to be more Caucasoid, it's not helping you. LOL
Then explain the image from Luis et al. I posted. The Tutsi showed no non-African lineages. You think you 'won' somethin even though you can't even address the facts
In fact, the Hutus showed a small percentage of "non-African" lineages. I would imagine that the mtDNA would be the same for the Tutsis because no historical data supports any mixing between Tutsis and any non-African females.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^Yeah, the Hutu showed 1.4% of hg R. Other than that there doesn't seem to be much difference between the Tutsi.
quote:I would imagine that the mtDNA would be the same for the Tutsis because no historical data supports any mixing between Tutsis and any non-African females.
I concur.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Oh my God! LOL I can't believe you guys are even having a debate over this long dead and debunked 'Hamitic Caucasoid Tutsi' sh|t!
It's obvious Jaimie has lost his mind. In fact I don't recall Jaimie ever being this stupid. What the hell happened to him??
I mean his arguments that Hadzabe were a 'light-skinned' generalized modern type wasn't silly enough, but THIS??!
I hope Simpleton is at least intelligent enough to forget about this guy being her 'champion' LOL Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Haplogroups are for amateurs, a small number of individuals do not represent the totality of an ethnic group. The Tutsi haplogroup data is contaminated with false Hutu pretenders. Real Tutsis are partially Hamitic Caucasoids.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Haplogroups are for amateurs.
Um... no actually. yDNA and mtDNA continues to be the preferred method over others for obvious reasons.
quote:a small number of individuals do not represent the totality of an ethnic group
You have to actually know what you are talking about, LOL. It is impossible to sample an entire population due to the fact that it would cost tons of money. So they take a subset that is representative. Learn about population sampling before sounding retarded again:
quote:he Tutsi haplogroup data is contaminated with false Hutu pretenders
Um... nope sorry. The authors specifically sampled the Tutsi and Hutu separately. Ironically, it was the Hutu who revealed small percentage of Eurasian admixture (1.4%) *NOT the Tutsi. Do you honestly thin the authors made a mistake and just labeled the Tutsi sample 'Tutsi' for fun? Nope, it did consist of actual Tutsis.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Okay first of all, Batutsi technically speaking are not even a separate ethnic group from Hutu but a caste or class. Not only is this supported by genetics but by archaeology and the folk traditions of the Tutsi themselves who by the way don't say sh*t about coming from Ethiopia.
Second of all a small number of individuals fails to explain the results.
^ Tutsi carry predominantly E1b1a, some B and a little bit of E2. Hutu on the other hand carry more E2 a little bit of E1b1b and even a tiny bit of R! I guess that means Hutu are more "Eurasian" then unless you think Tutsi have somehow "contaminated" the Hutu populace as pretenders, which I don't blame them considering the awful genocide! Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Unless there have been multiple independent studies regarding Tutsi haplogroups I do not trust those results, probably all Hutu samples. Autosomal samples from this region show that there is indeed a strong Hamitic Caucasoid component.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Idiot. The authors used Tutsi AND Hutu samples so obviously the Tutsi sample can NOT be synonymous with the Hutu as there is a clear and obvious distinction between the two. Furthermore, it was the Hutu sample that showed the Eurasian ancestry (1.4%) so you aren't helping your case that much--i.e., you are claiming the Tutsi were only fully African because you presume that they are actually Hutu. However, it is the Hutu that show the Eurasian ancestry, thereby undermining your case, because if what you said was even remotely possible, then the Tutsi sample would be showing Eurasian ancestry if they were actually Hutu!
quote:Autosomal samples from this region show that there is indeed a strong Hamitic Caucasoid component.
I would like you to post this as well. You are all talk man.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
In the Structure Analysis by Xing et al. the Hema peoples had relatively high levels of the Caucasoid genetic component (~15%).
While the indigenous inhabitants, the Ituri forest pygmies, had 0%. The Alur lacked the Caucasoid component, and so did the parental populations of the Bantus (West Africans).
Only explanation is Hamitic Caucasoid introgression in this region, probably peaking in the Tutsi.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Ehh! Wrong. The Hema are closely related to the Alur. Cite the exact words in the paper that says the Hema have 15% Eurasian admixture. As stated in the article, several closely related populations were grouped, the Hema and Alur were grouped together. Furthermore, even if there was 15% Eurasian ancestry, you are being bias. How can 15% make them "Hamitic" if they were 85% African?
Then, get it through your Neanderthal like brain that the Hema are Not Tusi and thus have no bearing on the genetic relationships of the Tutsi Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Hamitic Caucasoid & West African:
Original African Great Lakes Region Inhabitants: Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Lmao, you have gone delusional. We have proven you wrong in genetics so you resort to picture spamming that has absolutely no bearing on the genetic evidence
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pair'o'huy: Haplogroups are for amateurs, a small number of individuals do not represent the totality of an ethnic group.
WTF?!!
First off, haplogroups are the ONLY way to accurately access ancestry since they are the only genetic sequences that are non-recombinant and thus representative of any direct lineage.
Second, you obviously have no clue about statistical sampling as representative of the general population.
And third, were YOU not the one who has been using haplogroups to support your own arguments in the past couple of pages??!! LMAO
What's the matter? Now that the very haplogroup data proves you wrong you now dispute the science of it?!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': Lmao, you have gone delusional. We have proven you wrong in genetics so you resort to picture spamming that has absolutely no bearing on the genetic evidence
In other words the troll has degenerated further from what semblance of higher thinking he once had.
Here are a couple of old studies based on assessment of skeletal remains.
Jean Hiernaux, Peoples of the World Series: The People of Africa (1975)
The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions............. From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong,... - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa
Although these sources are old, they are far from outdated since recent studies continue to prove them right including genetics.
It has been shown in hg analysis that Tutsi and others he calls "Hamitic" have no Eurasian ancestry. Now the fool brings up autosomal studies, yet he fails to name what exact autosomal genes in these studies he identifies as "Eurasian".
While we await his answer let's take a look at West Africans like the Fulani below.
No doubt the idiot would call these West Africans "Hamitic Caucasoids" as well. LOL Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
Fulanis are indeed Hamitic Caucasoid admixed.
Confirmed by Dienekes et al. 2011
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
(entertaining for a sec that the abobe graph has any validity, which, judging by the terms used, its author, it has NOT)
LOL San are Paleo Africans? You call that science?
Why are the equally intermediate Sandawe and Masai not Hamitic admixed?
LMAO
The self defeating nature of Eurocentrism!
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Maasai are indeed partially Hamitic Caucasoid. They have keen facial features compared to those of neighboring Bantu tribes.
Fulanis, Tutsis are all Hamitic mutts.
Posted by Kalonji (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: You are definitely more Negroid than the average Eastern Bantu. Your European ancestry is pulling you towards the Eastern Bantus. Without your European ancestry you would not cluster with them.
Oops, didn't know what a phuckup you've made yourself out to be in the previous thread. Never mind, don't respond to my previous post.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
The Hamitic Caucasoid theory is supported by genetics. Afrocentrists, eat your hearts out!
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Dienekes et al. 2011
Proven. Perahu is retarded. Dienkes did *NOT* write a peer-reviewed paper, he is only a blogger who can offer opinions. He's brainwashed you man...
quote:The Hamitic Caucasoid theory is supported by genetics. Afrocentrists, eat your hearts out!
Hamitic isn't even used by geneticists anymore nor is Caucasian for that matter.
quote:The Maasai are indeed partially Hamitic Caucasoid. They have keen facial features compared to those of neighboring Bantu tribes.
Fulanis, Tutsis are all Hamitic mutts
Based on nothing but what he perceives from exterior anatomical traits, not the genetic specifics provided herein
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Not to mention that the fool obviously doesn't know what "et al." means, otherwise he wouldn't be using it in reference to someone who works alone.
Anyways, what idiot cites a non-geneticist blogger who uses a pseudonym as a credible source?
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
To answer simple-minded's question: hg M exist as far south as Tanzania, alongside M1!
Only in considerably lower frequencies, less diversity, and mainly among Northeast African (Cushitic) admixed groups.
List the frequencies [not that it matters here], the names of the tested Tanzanian groups and the authors of the results that you are relying on, that makes you think that you are qualified to expound on my post. Since you are acting like you are elaborating on my post, you had better make sure your source is the very same one as mine.
Your take on diversity is preposterously wild; with the M1 branch and other M branches being in Tanzania vs. essentially just the M1 branch in Ethiopia, in what logical world does that translate into hg M being "less diverse" in Tanzania vs. Ethiopia?
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^Not to mention that the fool obviously doesn't know what "et al." means, otherwise he wouldn't be using it in reference to someone who works alone.
Yep, lol. At first Perahu at least seemed a little knowledgeable, but when he lost, he really lost it. He's almost as obtuse as the lioness
quote:Anyways, what idiot cites a non-geneticist blogger who uses a pseudonym as a credible source?
Perahu has been brainwashed by Dienkes to an extreme. He literally takes Dienkes words as the Gospel truth. No doubt where his most erroneous ideas come from.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Are you referencing Gonder et al. (2007), Or is there another one?
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
Perahu is not Jaime at all, Perahu is that trolling idiot "Habesha" who used to post on RAS forum, ignore the troll.
Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
^What is the RAS forum?
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': ^What is the RAS forum?
RAS. Race and Stuff forum, is an old defunct, inactive forum that was active from about 2003 til 2007 and Perahu is that Ethiopian troll "Habesha" who was tricked into emailing a video of himself masturbating by another poster in the forum. If it isn't him its another trolling poster called "Shouf" who has posted in this forum as Leba, the fake Somali that Djehuti called out and exposed years ago.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': Proven. Perahu is retarded. Dienkes did *NOT* write a peer-reviewed paper, he is only a blogger who can offer opinions. He's brainwashed you man...
I was using it comically, of course I know the meaning of et al.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Anyways, what idiot cites a non-geneticist blogger who uses a pseudonym as a credible source?
Dienekes is a credible source.
Posted by Perahu (Member # 18548) on :
West Eurasian Back-Migration into Africa
The first solution is based on the idea that there has been a major episode of back-migration into Africa that is not captured by the standard model. Clearly, this cannot have been a recent event, as Sub-Saharan Africans largely lack (except in the North and East) certifiably West Eurasian derived markers. But, the event need not have been particularly recent: as long as it occurred after West Eurasians began to diverge from East Asians it would have established the genetic closeness observed by the authors.
I believe that the best signal of such a potential back-migration involves haplogroup E. This is the dominant patrilineage of black Africans by far, and almost certainly had an African (and probably an east African) origin. However, its sister haplogroup D occurs as a relic in Asia, among people such as Tibetans, Ainu, or Andaman Islanders. Where did the ancestral clade DE develop? If I was a betting man, I would say that somewhere between the Indian Ocean (where the Andamanese live), and East Africa.
An early movement of DE-bearing men from Arabia into East Africa would serve to bring a West Eurasian autosomal component into Africa. That component would then evolve into E in East Africa itself, and go on to (almost) completely replace pre-existing African Y-chromosomes, leaving haplogroups A and B at high frequencies in a few relic African hunter-gatherer populations.
From the Eurasian perspective, the problem would evaporate: West Eurasians' autosomal shift to Africans is not correlated with haplogroup E frequencies, because the latter was not initially associated with a Sub-Saharan-like autosomal gene pool.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
Dienekes is a credible source.
Remind me not to take you seriously. Posted by Calabooz' (Member # 18238) on :
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: RAS. Race and Stuff forum, is an old defunct, inactive forum that was active from about 2003 til 2007 and Perahu is that Ethiopian troll "Habesha" who was tricked into emailing a video of himself masturbating by another poster in the forum. If it isn't him its another trolling poster called "Shouf" who has posted in this forum as Leba, the fake Somali that Djehuti called out and exposed years ago.
This explains everything! Jaimie is usually not the type of person who subscribe to outdated race-theories so when he began talking of "caucasoids" and "Hamites", my brow was raised.
He is nothing more than a sick brainwashed idiot follower of Dienekes. He is finished. Kaput! Damn, and to think we actually took this guy seriously for like 2 pages.
LMAO @ "Dienekes et. al"
The day Dienekes publishes a paper in collaboration with other experts is the day academia has collapsed!
quote:Originally posted by Pair'o'huy: Dienekes is a credible source.
LMAOH
Hilarious.
Even Wikipedia is more credible than Dienekes.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: West Eurasian Back-Migration into Africa
The first solution is based on the idea that there has been a major episode of back-migration into Africa that is not captured by the standard model. Clearly, this cannot have been a recent event, as Sub-Saharan Africans largely lack (except in the North and East) certifiably West Eurasian derived markers. But, the event need not have been particularly recent: as long as it occurred after West Eurasians began to diverge from East Asians it would have established the genetic closeness observed by the authors.
I believe that the best signal of such a potential back-migration involves haplogroup E. This is the dominant patrilineage of black Africans by far, and almost certainly had an African (and probably an east African) origin. However, its sister haplogroup D occurs as a relic in Asia, among people such as Tibetans, Ainu, or Andaman Islanders. Where did the ancestral clade DE develop? If I was a betting man, I would say that somewhere between the Indian Ocean (where the Andamanese live), and East Africa.
An early movement of DE-bearing men from Arabia into East Africa would serve to bring a West Eurasian autosomal component into Africa. That component would then evolve into E in East Africa itself, and go on to (almost) completely replace pre-existing African Y-chromosomes, leaving haplogroups A and B at high frequencies in a few relic African hunter-gatherer populations.
From the Eurasian perspective, the problem would evaporate: West Eurasians' autosomal shift to Africans is not correlated with haplogroup E frequencies, because the latter was not initially associated with a Sub-Saharan-like autosomal gene pool.
Sir, what is a paragroup?
Posted by The Lioness. (Member # 18830) on :
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: the average Eastern Bantu despite having European blood.
did rasol predict the future?
quote:Rasol wrote years ago: Next up, the Nordic origins of Bantu!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Indeed. With the craziness that comes from these racialists, I don't think you have to necessarily be clairvoyant or a prophet to sees such insanity coming.
Posted by lady of doom (Member # 19427) on :
OK so is it set and stone that R1 in camroonians and U6 is both Asian??
Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
Y-Haplogroup R1 and mtDNA M1 and U6 in Africa are definitely the result of Back Migration from Eurasia. Every sequencial scientific study confirms this as well. R1b1c-V88 descends from R1b1-P25 which in turn descends from R1b-M343 and R-M343* is not found in Africa but is found in Turkey. Neither is R1-M173* found in Africa. And mtDNA U6 descends from U which is definitely of Asian origin since highest diversity and frequency of mtDNA Hg U are found only in Eurasia. M1 has now been shown to be even younger than some mtDNA M Haplogroups, much younger than M2 and M2 is found mostly in India.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Even if M1 and U6 are of Eurasian origin, why does that matter? These two haplogroups originated not too long after modern humans left Africa, so it's not like the first people carrying them were cold-adapted (especially since they were supposedly in southern Eurasia at that time). There's also bio-anthropological evidence that Nile Valley populations during the Late Pleistocene had tropical African affinities, so even if they had received some back-migration, it wouldn't have been cold-adapted people who were involved.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I can forgive the ignorance of 'rainingburntice' for failing to read the valuable info of this thread from the beginning, but did you not pay attention to this thread?
Posted by GOMTUU (Member # 19606) on :
Truthcentric Avatar Image Member Member # 3735
Rate Member Icon 1 posted 12 October, 2011 05:10 PM Profile for Truthcentric Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Even if M1 and U6 are of Eurasian origin, why does that matter? These two haplogroups originated not too long after modern humans left Africa, so it's not like the first people carrying them were cold-adapted (especially since they were supposedly in southern Eurasia at that time). There's also bio-anthropological evidence that Nile Valley populations during the Late Pleistocene had tropical African affinities, so even if they had received some back-migration, it wouldn't have been cold-adapted people who were involved..............CHARLES DARWIN AND THE OUT OF AFRICA EXPERIENCE ,ANYONE HERE CARRY APE BLOOD IN THEIR VEINS.
Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
To Truthcentric:
Yes they would have been cold adapted! Because during the Upper Palaeolithic west Asia including the area of the Black Sea (most likely the area of origin of U6 since it is also found in southern Europe) was much colder then including parts of the Middle East!
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': Lmao, you have gone delusional. We have proven you wrong in genetics so you resort to picture spamming that has absolutely no bearing on the genetic evidence
In other words the troll has degenerated further from what semblance of higher thinking he once had.
Here are a couple of old studies based on assessment of skeletal remains.
Jean Hiernaux, Peoples of the World Series: The People of Africa (1975)
The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region......all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions............. From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.
Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong,... - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa
Although these sources are old, they are far from outdated since recent studies continue to prove them right including genetics.
It has been shown in hg analysis that Tutsi and others he calls "Hamitic" have no Eurasian ancestry. Now the fool brings up autosomal studies, yet he fails to name what exact autosomal genes in these studies he identifies as "Eurasian".
While we await his answer let's take a look at West Africans like the Fulani below.
No doubt the idiot would call these West Africans "Hamitic Caucasoids" as well. LOL
Indeed.
Narrow noses in Africa are a function of climate and occur not only in higher altitude East African zones but desert areas as well, plus the Sahara, due to the dryness of the air, and arid areas or cooler coastal zones. Note on the map below that a large block of narrow noses occur in part of the Angolan region, a cooler climate zone area where the Benguela Current yields cooler temperatures like that of Baja California or coastal Peru. Such micro-climates are nothing special in the tropical zone of Africa nor are narrow noses anything special among ultra diverse tropical Africans.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: To Truthcentric:
Yes they would have been cold adapted! Because during the Upper Palaeolithic west Asia including the area of the Black Sea (most likely the area of origin of U6 since it is also found in southern Europe) was much colder then including parts of the Middle East!
But among the people who would pass through the region during the time those clades arose were the ancestors of Australian aborigines, Negritoes, and New Guineans. Are these populations cold-adapted now?
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I can forgive the ignorance of 'rainingburntice' for failing to read the valuable info of this thread from the beginning, but did you not pay attention to this thread?
Sorry, I posted before reading the thread's beginning. Still, my point stands that even if those haplogroups are of Eurasian origin (unlikely as that might be), the people among whom they arose would not have been cold-adapted yet.
Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
To Truthcentric:
The Negritos are the people that followed the beachcombing route along the Indian Ocean 65,000 years ago, and arrived in Australia first. Some of the Australian Aborigines arrived 45,000 years ago as evidenced by their Y-DNA. Haplogroup C4 represents the more ancient inhabitants and Haplogroup K represents the migration of the latter group. This can also be shown in their physical traits. Australian Aborigines are obviously of mixed race. Some have wavy hair some have afro hair, the well developed beard growth of them shows some Ainu type admixture. The same types can be found in some New Guineas (that's why some New Guineas have promintent noses). People that looked like the Ainu 45,000 years ago migrated south to Australia and some branched into the north direction who are the Ainu. The Ainu type people were evolved to a much colder climate by 45,000 years ago which is why the Aborigines are diverse in physical traits.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by rainingburntice: To Truthcentric:
The Negritos are the people that followed the beachcombing route along the Indian Ocean 65,000 years ago, and arrived in Australia first. Some of the Australian Aborigines arrived 45,000 years ago as evidenced by their Y-DNA. Haplogroup C4 represents the more ancient inhabitants and Haplogroup K represents the migration of the latter group. This can also be shown in their physical traits. Australian Aborigines are obviously of mixed race. Some have wavy hair some have afro hair, the well developed beard growth of them shows some Ainu type admixture. The same types can be found in some New Guineas (that's why some New Guineas have promintent noses). People that looked like the Ainu 45,000 years ago migrated south to Australia and some branched into the north direction who are the Ainu. The Ainu type people were evolved to a much colder climate by 45,000 years ago which is why the Aborigines are diverse in physical traits.
I looked up the Y-DNA haplgroups of both Australasians and Ainu and come to the conclusion that you're bullshitting again. Ainu are mostly Haplogroup D with some being C3, not K like you're insinuating. Furthermore, if wavy hair in Australasians has anything to do with Ainu admixture, then why is it that Papuans (who are geographically closer to Eurasia) have curlier hair than mainland Australians?
Posted by xm (Member # 19601) on :
"Furthermore, if wavy hair in Australasians has anything to do with Ainu admixture, then why is it that Papuans (who are geographically closer to Eurasia) have curlier hair than mainland Australians?"
Papuans were affected more by genetic drift because of smaller population (smaller landmass) than Australia. Same with Japan only backwards. Haplogroup C3 in Japan was of more recent origin (Satsumon culture) which is why it still shows up in the Ainu. Haplogroup D migrated to Japan first and was dominant on Japan c. 45,000 years ago. The majority of Hg D caused Hg K to go extinct in Japan through genetic drift and the physical features of the Middle Eastern types (Ainu) through centuries of admixture became somewhat significant through genetic drift as well, but the Ainu have always been mixed. This is common among island populations. There are however Ainu like types within the Indonesian region to know that's the case, with wavy hair and heavy beard growth. There is some interesting genetic evidence that suggests this though. The Upper Palaeolithic Y-DNA Haplogroups of East Asia were C,D, and K. These are spread across East Asia at low to moderate frequencies everywhere. In isolated regions of Tibet, Thailand, and India they can even be found at higher frequencies together showing close association with each other. Even in Korea the last 'stepping stone' to Japan Hg K has a frequency of 8%. And the two were connected during the Upper Palaeolithic 20,000 years ago. The only thing that explains the complete absence of Hg K in Japan is extinction by genetic drift.
Posted by rainingburntice (Member # 19436) on :
Future ancient Y-DNA studies on the oldest Jomon remains will no doubt show that Y-Hg K was present in Japan during the Upper Palaeolithic.
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LMAO...No No wonder you ran the **** out of Somalia...
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