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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Afrocentrists often use studies based on the teeth of pre-Dynastic Egyptians proving they were Negroes.

The claims are laughable.

Ancient Egyptians had simple, mass-reduced teeth. This contrasts with the dental pattern of Sub-Saharan Africans who had (Irish, 2000) massive complex teeth:
Dentitions of Late Pleistocene Jebel Sahaba Nubians have extremely high frequencies of complex, mass-additive (and other) traits, including UI1 labial curvature, UI1 shoveling, Bushman Canine, UC distal accessory ridge, midline diastema, sixcusped LM1, LM2 Y-5, and LP1 Tome’s root. Furthermore, they exhibit low frequencies of typical North African features. This trait combination is ubiquitous in sub-Saharan Africans (Irish & Turner, 1990; Irish, 1993, 1997, 1998a,b, for details).
From a newer article:
However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993).
And from Hanihara et al. a different study which shows the same Caucasoid affiliations of the Egyptian dental pattern.




Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples.
Irish JD.

Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.


Sources (in order of appearance):
Irish JD, (2000) The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end? J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410.

Irish JD and Turner C, (1990) West African dental affinity of Late Pleistocene Nubians: Peopling of the Eurafrican-South Asian triangle II. Homo 41:42-53.

Irish JD, (1993) Biological affinities of late Pleistocene through modern African aboriginal populations: the dental evidence. Ph.D. dissertation, Arizona State University, Tempe.

Irish JD, (1997) Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. Am J Phys Anthropol 102:455–467.

Irish JD, (1998a) Dental morphological indications of population discontinuity and Egyptian gene flow in post-Paleolithic Nubia. In: Lukacs JR, editor. Human dental development, morphology, and pathology: a tribute to Albert A. Dahlberg. University of Oregon anthropological papers 54. Eugene: University of Oregon Press. p 155–172.

Irish JD, (1998b) Dental morphological affinities of late Pleistocene through recent sub-Saharan and North African peoples. Bull Mem Soc Anthropol Paris 10:237–272.

Brace et al (1993) Clines and clusters versus “race”: A test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 36, 1-36.

Hanihara T and Ishida H, (2005) Metric dental variation of major human populations American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 128 Issue 2, Pages 287 - 298.

Irish JD, (2006) Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.


Craniofacial morphology

One of the best ways to determine the race of a population is their skull type. A study was done by (Brace et al., 1993) who tested 24 various cranial measurements from around the world. The Ancient Egyptians were encluded. The results showed that the predynastic Egyptians clustered well with SW Asia and Neolithic Europe, North Africa, and NE Africa.
The Egyptian skulls showed very little similarity to Negroid African skulls from the distant south to west.
The plot shows relationships between these tested populations:





I shouldn't need to explain the results. You can clearly see the Egyptians cluster well with Caucasoid Eurasians and DO NOT cluster with Negroids.

I do notice that Upper Egypt, which was really to the south, is closer to the Negroid cluster. This may indicate slight Negroid admixture.

Other studies have come to similar conclusions:
Howells(1989,1995) and Froment (1992,1994)

SOURCES:
Brace, et al. (1993) Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31

Howells WW (1989) Skull Shapes and the Map.Craniometric Analyses in the Dispersion of Modern Homo. Cambridge: Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University.

Howells WW (1995) Who's Who in Skulls. Ethnic Identification of Crania from Measurements. Cambridge: Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University.

Froment A (1992) Origines du Peuplement de l'Egypte Ancienne: l'Apport de l'anthropobiologie. Archéo-Nil 2:79-98.

Froment A (1994) Race et Histoire: La recomposition ideologique de l'image des Egyptiens anciens. Journal des Africanistes 64:37-64.

More

http://www.geocities.com/enbp/mds3d.html

Afrocentrists often use studies based on the teeth of pre-Dynastic Egyptians proving they were Negroes.

The claims are laughable.

Ancient Egyptians had simple, mass-reduced teeth. This contrasts with the dental pattern of Sub-Saharan Africans who had (Irish, 2000) massive complex teeth:
Dentitions of Late Pleistocene Jebel Sahaba Nubians have extremely high frequencies of complex, mass-additive (and other) traits, including UI1 labial curvature, UI1 shoveling, Bushman Canine, UC distal accessory ridge, midline diastema, sixcusped LM1, LM2 Y-5, and LP1 Tome’s root. Furthermore, they exhibit low frequencies of typical North African features. This trait combination is ubiquitous in sub-Saharan Africans (Irish & Turner, 1990; Irish, 1993, 1997, 1998a,b, for details).
From a newer article:
However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993).
And from Hanihara et al. a different study which shows the same Caucasoid affiliations of the Egyptian dental pattern.




Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples.
Irish JD.

Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.


Sources (in order of appearance):
Irish JD, (2000) The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end? J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410.

Irish JD and Turner C, (1990) West African dental affinity of Late Pleistocene Nubians: Peopling of the Eurafrican-South Asian triangle II. Homo 41:42-53.

Irish JD, (1993) Biological affinities of late Pleistocene through modern African aboriginal populations: the dental evidence. Ph.D. dissertation, Arizona State University, Tempe.

Irish JD, (1997) Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. Am J Phys Anthropol 102:455–467.

Irish JD, (1998a) Dental morphological indications of population discontinuity and Egyptian gene flow in post-Paleolithic Nubia. In: Lukacs JR, editor. Human dental development, morphology, and pathology: a tribute to Albert A. Dahlberg. University of Oregon anthropological papers 54. Eugene: University of Oregon Press. p 155–172.

Irish JD, (1998b) Dental morphological affinities of late Pleistocene through recent sub-Saharan and North African peoples. Bull Mem Soc Anthropol Paris 10:237–272.

Brace et al (1993) Clines and clusters versus “race”: A test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 36, 1-36.

Hanihara T and Ishida H, (2005) Metric dental variation of major human populations American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 128 Issue 2, Pages 287 - 298.

Irish JD, (2006) Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.
 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
What about limb-ratio claims by Negrocentrsists? Are these in any way good racial indicators?

Not really.



This is because they're too dependent on environment.



For example, high-altitude and low-altitude Andeans evolved different limb proportions in response to their different environments(Weinstein 2005), even though they are essentially the same people.



This is a chart showing cural index (Stringer and Gamble, 1993) - which is Tibia/Femur length:


These numbers give a high (0.82) correlation between crural index and mean annual temperature.



So yes, Egyptians are relatively heat-adapted, but then so are Melanesians and Arizona Indians. Heat adaptation is by no means unique to sub-Saharan Africans.

And the Negrocentrists do not learn this.

Why?



SOURCES:

Weinstein KJ (2005), Body proportions in ancient Andeans from high and low altitudes, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, vol. 128, no. 3, pg. 569-585.



Stringer C and Gamble C (1993), In search of the Neanderthals: solving the puzzle of human origins. Pg 92.
 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
More Negrocentric bull****:








Negrocentrists often use this image to prove that the anceint Egyptians thought of themselves as Negroes.

This is not so - and an utter lie.



It is a composite of a modern drawing.

But don't take my word for it, I'm no Egyptologist or University professor. But Frank Yurco is:

Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl. 48 are actually not

Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I showed in my article

in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1997).

To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts between these figures were

garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb and in Ramesses III's

tomb showed the Egyptians and the Ku****es as distinctly different.

Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are distributed between each

of the four figures depicting each type. You can now view the real

photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III walls in Hornung's volumes

on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside both tombs myself and have

seen these scenes and their texts, and on the basis of this, the depiction

in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of what is on the walls but

rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the

process. It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this

depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that

patently it is not reality.



Most sincerely,



Frank J. Yurco

University of Chicago



--

Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu



Here is a copy of some figures from the Seti I tomb by Minutoli in 1820, possibly when the tomb was in better shape.

From left: four Libyans, Nubian, Syrian, and Egyptian.




Does the Egyptian look Negroid? Of course not.



Only a foolish, inept Afrocentric would claim just because that Egyptian has somewhat darkish skin (Though perfectly in the Mediterannean range) he is a Negro.

When they obviously viewed Negroes as a different race entirely.



Egyptians with Negroid African slaves. Memphis, tomb of Horemheb. Dynasty XVIII, prior to 1348 B.C. Bologna, Museo Civico Archeologico. Note the racial differences.



 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
From Black Athena Visited






Table 1:


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6903/clzetpmf9h3sa7911tde.jpg





Source:

Lefkowitz MR and Rogers GM, (1996). Black Athena revisited. Edition: 4, illustrated. ISBN 0807845558, 9780807845554. Page 139-141.

And sources cited in the book:

Howells WW (1986). Physical Anthropology of the Prehistoric Japanese. in Windows on the Japanese Past: Studies in Archaeology and Prehistory, edited by EW Pearson, GL Garnes, and KL Hutterer, 85-90.



Woo TL, Morant GM (1934). A Biometric Study of the "Flatness" of the Facial Skeleton in Man". Biometrika, Vol. 26, No. 1/2. pp. 196-250.



Petrie WMF (1901). The Races of Early Egypt. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Society of Great Britain and Ireland 31:248-55.



Petrie WMF (1911). Roman Portraits and Memphis. Vol. 4. London: Bernard Quaritch.



Martin R (1928). Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung. Vol. 2, Kraniologie, Osteologie. Jena: Gustav Fischer.



Howells WW (1973). Cranial Variation in Man: A study by Multivariate Analysis of Patterns of Difference among Recent Human Populations. Papers of the Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, 69. Cambridge: Peabody Museum, Harvard University.



Brace CL, Hunt KD (1990) A nonracial craniofacial perspectieve on human variation: A(ustralia) to Z(uni). American Journal of Physical Anthropology.

In-text numerical citations:


[/QUOTE]



 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Where the ancient Egyptians white ?

THE RED HAIRED RAMSES II - LAST SIGNIFICANT WHITE PHARAOH



^ Red and straight hair a features rare in negroes but typical in whites.
 

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Posted by Apocalypse (Member # 8587) on :
 
Nice!!!!


 

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Posted by DULL-RAB debunkedd (Member # 16646) on :
 
You lose again WHITE NURD- ARTHUR KEMP...


diagram 3- dental A- nurd loses




diagram 4- nurd loses



Limb proportion studies - nurd loses



Black Americans, Black Africans or dark skinned tropial peoples resemble/physically closer to modern and ancient Egyptians than whites. Whether ancient or modern, the pattern is the same. - Nurd loses




Data from C. Loring Brace 1993 debunked - nurd loses




Brace 2005 - early Euros looked like africans - nurd loses




timeline of the Nile Valley- Africa - nurd loses


 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Hey 'Poc Away thanks for not biting the bait.
Hope the young ones learn and catch on soon,
we ain't got nothing to prove but they sure do!!!

D'ya thinj Simple Sister's got an ass like we never seeeeen?


Li'l' Red Corvette

quote:

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Originally posted by Apocalypse:
Nice!!!!

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 
Arthur Kemp, good data, I'm impressed. But all this shows is that Egyptians were and are Caucasoids.

It does nothing to prove that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire" as you maintain in your ridiculous book (if you are even the real Arthur Kemp).

I want to see craniofacial dendrograms that show ancient Egyptians clustering with Swedes and Northern Germans before Northeast Africans.

So, can we stop with the Nordicism crap? Which is basically the Northern European version of Afrocentrism.

I know Northern Europeans do not start becoming relevant in history until Medieval times, but that is no excuse to make up fantasy history to make a few Northern European children feel better.

Ancient Egypt, Sumeria, Persia, Greece, and Rome were built by "Nordics"??? All while the real "Nordics" in their real racial homeland were illiterate and had no architecture beyond rockpiles?

BTW, trust me if you were to see the ancient (or even modern for that matter) Upper Egyptians, they are some pretty dark motherfuckers. I assure you none would be mistake for a "white man" by your a commoner in the U.S.A

but anyways, good data.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3948/kellscrossexposure.png

Hmmmm parroting Arthur Kemp huh?
OWNED !!!!!
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

For the Lazy.
 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:

For the Lazy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:

For the Lazy.

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Where did this conversation take place? And what "study" are they talking about?

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http://www.siftingsands.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223&page=8

HERE.
The images in question are:

1. Showing how Haplogroup E is primarily African.


2. Showing the migration route of Eastern Africans from Ethiopia populating Sudan and Egypt.


3. Showing specific Male Chromosomes (E-M78) shared by North East Africans and those in the Sahara: Ethiopians, Kenyans, Somalis, Sudanese and Egyptians, etc.


Enjoy.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Daaamn!!!,Astenb I know their s,,,it was weak but can't even defend it with some good ol fashioned 19th cent.Morton,Nott,Gliddon or some Coon Carlton.S. My,my,my what in the world is White Supremacist scholorship coming to.
 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
That letter is obviously forged.
 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:

quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:

For the Lazy.

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Where did this conversation take place? And what "study" are they talking about?

---

http://www.siftingsands.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223&page=8

HERE.
The images in question are:

1. Showing how Haplogroup E is primarily African.


2. Showing the migration route of Eastern Africans from Ethiopia populating Sudan and Egypt.


3. Showing specific Male Chromosomes (E-M78) shared by North East Africans and those in the Sahara: Ethiopians, Kenyans, Somalis, Sudanese and Egyptians, etc.


Enjoy.

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That's pretty interesting, but what exactly does this have to do with the race of the Ancient Egyptians?

Balkan people and Italians carry E3B (as well as J2) but the downstream clade they carry (E-V13) differentiates them with North Africans and arrived in the Neolithic times to Europe.




of course, this does not negate the descent from pristine E3B or E-M78.
 

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Posted by arthurkemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Kellcross has never reffered to you as a her. Kellcross is talking to Americtech right now about getting Egyptwaswhite's internet connection shut up. You will be next astenb also I am not the "real" arthur kemp but a fan.
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
BTW, We both use Benjamin Franklin the great Abolitionist as an icon.

quote:

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Originally posted by arthurkemp:

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If you look at your own chart you will see that American Black on the last line is closest to Egyptian.


The Egyptians are Cushites similat to other East Africans. I have met modern Egyptians living in NYC where I am starting from when I was in 7th grade. They are of two types.

1. a paleskinned "Arab" type
2. a medium brown lightskinned Black type

Of course, there a very dark people in modern day Egypt.
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 


The Ethiopian Emperor Haile Sellassie said that he was not a Negro. Yet, Jamaica, West Indies is where the Ethiopian monarch and dynasty are revered. Not, all Blacks are Negroes. Negroes tend to come from West Africa. Cushites, come from East Africa.

This is a Melanesian

 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 
Bull Shiit she know she wrote it. I and i have no idea who the other person was. But she is actually right The evidence cannot be refuted for it is fact. And NO v13 is NOT the more pristine version of E3b! What group of monkeys trained you to spout that one?


E3b* is the most pristine. Found mostly in Ethiopia. Where do you see V13 in that picture - You dont because it is only a minor subclade. When your further Break down M78 and M78 travels OUT of Africa and has sex with your European Ancestors - you get V13


Read it and weep.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
If she wrote it why did she call you a "she" instead of a "he" ? That alone exposes you fraudsters.
 

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Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
If she wrote it why did she call you a "she" instead of a "he" ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
She is currently working on having your internet connection shut up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Really who is going to take A Nut like Kemp seriously.

Any fool who thinks that Ancient Egypt was Nordic really has no place on this forum. Is it just me but I think the Stormfront nuts are trying to force out the scholarship and FACTS we post on this forum.

Peace

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quote:

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Originally posted by astenb:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
She is currently working on having your internet connection shut up.

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What is wrong with you - You STOOPID COUNTRY HICK!?!?

Shut off my internet connection for WHAT?
-How is she going to "shut off my internet connection"
-She is calling "Ameritech" - What are they going to do.
-Who will she speak to and what would you/her/dumbasss/ say?
You Tennessee Bumpkins need to learn something. The world doesn't not revolve around your trailer home.

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quote:

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Gerald Massey, English writer and author of the book, Egypt the Light of the World, wrote, "The dignity is so ancient that the insignia of the Pharaoh evidently belonged to the time when Egyptians wore nothing but the girdle of the Negro." (p 251)

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quote:

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Sir Richard Francis Burton, a 19th century English explorer, writer and linguist in 1883 wrote to Gerald Massey, "You are quite right about the "AFRICAN" origin of the Egyptians. I have 100 human skulls to prove it."

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quote:

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Scientist, R. T. Prittchett, states in his book The Natural History of Man, "In their complex and many of the complexions and in physical peculiarities the Egyptians were an "AFRICAN" race (p 124-125).

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quote:

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The Ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited Egypt in the 5th century B.C.E., saw the Egyptians face to face and described them as black-skinned with woolly hair.

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quote:

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Anthropologist, Count Constatin de Volney (1727-1820),spoke about the race of the Egyptians that produced the Pharaohs. He later paid tribute to Herodotus' discovery when he said:

The ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of it's original color, while retaining none the less the imprint of it's original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face (referring to The Sphinx) is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest to or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of the people."

The fact that the ancient Egyptians were black-skin prompted Volney to make the following statement:
"What a subject for meditation, just think that the race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, science and even the use of our speech."


The testimony of the ancients, the scriptures, & many Egyptologists, along with archaeology confirms that the Egyptians during biblical times were a "BLACK" PEOPLE.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:

quote:

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Gerald Massey, English writer and author of the book, Egypt the Light of the World, wrote, "The dignity is so ancient that the insignia of the Pharaoh evidently belonged to the time when Egyptians wore nothing but the girdle of the Negro." (p 251)

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He was looking at the nubian pharaohs when they conquered Egypt.

quote:

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Sir Richard Francis Burton, a 19th century English explorer, writer and linguist in 1883 wrote to Gerald Massey, "You are quite right about the "AFRICAN" origin of the Egyptians. I have 100 human skulls to prove it."

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Taking from the nubian dynasties of Egypt.

quote:

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Scientist, R. T. Prittchett, states in his book The Natural History of Man, "In their complex and many of the complexions and in physical peculiarities the Egyptians were an "AFRICAN" race (p 124-125).

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He was not looking at the nordic founders of Egypt but at the Nubian conquerers.

quote:

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The Ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited Egypt in the 5th century B.C.E., saw the Egyptians face to face and described them as black-skinned with woolly hair.

---

After Nubian invasions

quote:

---

Anthropologist, Count Constatin de Volney (1727-1820),spoke about the race of the Egyptians that produced the Pharaohs. He later paid tribute to Herodotus' discovery when he said:

The ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of it's original color, while retaining none the less the imprint of it's original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face (referring to The Sphinx) is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest to or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of the people."

The fact that the ancient Egyptians were black-skin prompted Volney to make the following statement:
"What a subject for meditation, just think that the race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, science and even the use of our speech."


The testimony of the ancients, the scriptures, & many Egyptologists, along with archaeology confirms that the Egyptians during biblical times were a "BLACK" PEOPLE.

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Count's words are based on a subjective viewpoint of a monument and Herodotus's words during the nubian invasion of Egypt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
He had to be looking at the nubians because the original egyptains were nordics. Its common sense really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
@ King's post


African Studies" is not acceptable. Those guys are nothing but ideologues in acdemic disguise. :roll eyes:

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.


No academic credentials. :roll eyes:


A bunch of popular writers - cite JOURNAL articles.


Upper egypt is southern egypt - near nubia. Any surprise they found buried blacks there? No.


What's her point - that everyone goes back to africa? Not relevent. The ISSUE is were the egyptians indistinct from the subsaharan africans of the the time.

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quote:

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E3b* is the most pristine. Found mostly in Ethiopia. Where do you see V13 in that picture - You dont because it is only a minor subclade. When your further Break down M78 and M78 travels OUT of Africa and has sex with your European Ancestors - you get V13

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
He had to be looking at the nubians because the original egyptains were nordics. Its common sense really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

quote:

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E3b* is the most pristine. Found mostly in Ethiopia. Where do you see V13 in that picture - You dont because it is only a minor subclade. When your further Break down M78 and M78 travels OUT of Africa and has sex with your European Ancestors - you get V13

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that's exactly what I said dumb dumb.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp/White Nord:
He had to be looking at the nubians because the original egyptains were nordics.

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dream on...


 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 
Bishop, I'm very aware people 15,000 years ago didn't resemble people now. Europeans 15,000 years ago would look nothing like they do now.

But this is also true for Africans as well, just look...modern "Negroid" Africans are closer to modern Greeks/Anatolians than they are to "Archaic AFricans".


 

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Posted by Bishop (Member # 16652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DULL-RAB debunkedd:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp/White Nord:
He had to be looking at the nubians because the original egyptains were nordics.

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dream on...

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LoL, I bet he want include none of the facts he got today in his new eurocentric book that he is working on.
 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishop:
[QB]

quote:

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Originally posted by DULL-RAB debunkedd:

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LoL, I bet he want include none of the facts he got today in his new eurocentric book that he is working on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:
Bishop, I'm very aware people 15,000 years ago didn't resemble people now. Europeans 15,000 years ago would look nothing like they do now.

But this is also true for Africans as well, just look...modern "Negroid" Africans are closer to modern Greeks/Anatolians than they are to "Archaic AFricans".

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quote:

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Originally posted by arthurkemp:
Where the ancient Egyptians white ?

THE RED HAIRED RAMSES II - LAST SIGNIFICANT WHITE PHARAOH



^ Red and straight hair a features rare in negroes but typical in whites.

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quote:

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Hey 'Poc Away thanks for not biting the bait.
Hope the young ones learn and catch on soon,
we ain't got nothing to prove but they sure do!!!

D'ya thinj Simple Sister's got an ass like we never seeeeen?

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Lol! Looks like despite our best efforts the little fishies have been ravenous - taking bait from any and all trolls. But here's to little red Corvettes
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Yeah simple irl, nobody diputes that Ramses is anything but a red headed north african caucasian except the regulars here on ES. They are the only people that ever question it.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
Can get with a corvette engine


 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
YAAAAAAWWWWNNNN!!! The moderators should do something about these quacks. Else most regulars will disppaear until something or someone really interesting appears. Nordic AE!!! LOL

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Yeah simple irl, nobody diputes that Ramses is anything but a red headed north african caucasian except the regulars here on ES. They are the only people that ever question it.

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quote:

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'''MODERN SKELETAL STUDIES PLACE EGYTIANS CLOSER TO AFRICAN GROUPS'''

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

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quote:

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Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth . These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.” (“Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples” J.D. Irish Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.)

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quote:

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“An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using TROTTER & GLESER negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published by TROTTER & GLESER. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed <<super-negroid>>… On the subject of estimating living stature from skeletal remains, BROTHWELL (1981 p. 101) mentions that the equations which the archaeologist is generally advised to use are those of TROTTER & GLESER (1952, 1958) based on the long bone lengths of modern North American subjects; he adds, however, that modern formulae may not be appropriate to earlier populations', and no physical anthropologist is fully content with the statistics so far produced. Where living height cannot be measured directly, it is clear that the credibility of estimates must depend upon criteria such as plausibility and consistency. In the case of Egyptian mummies, for instance, the estimate may be plausible if the deviation from the measured mummy length can be explained in terms of observable deformities such as collapse of the cervical spine, curvature of the thoracic spine, or foot-droop. The estimate is consistent if individual long bones give similar results, and this will depend upon the skeleton ancient times having limb and trunk proportions similar to those of the subjects on which the modern formulae were based. ROBINS (1983) and ROBINS & SHUTE (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained for ancient Egyptian male skeletons if TROTTER & GLESER formulae for negro subjects are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south. It does, however, suggest that their physical proportions were more like those of modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal limb segments that were long compared with the proximal segments.”(“Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986 Hum Evol 1:313–324. Ruff CB. 1994)

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quote:

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Originally posted by White Nord:
SKEWED RESULTS - the so-called “Negroid body plan” is not Egyptian but mixed Nubian:

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quote:

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Originally posted by White Nord:
Whites & Egyptians have mass-reduced teeth while negroids have large teeth:

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Again, teeth can alter due to ones diet, the shift to agriculture led these individuals to go through biological changes....


Biological Changes in Human Populations with Agriculture Clark Spencer Larsen Department of Anthropology and Research Laboratories of Anthropology, The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3120

Agriculture has long been regarded as an improvement in the human condition: Once Homo sapiens made the transition from foraging to farming in the Neolithic, health and nutrition improved, longevity increased, and work load declined. Recent study of archaeological human remains worldwide by biological anthropologists has shown this characterization of the shift from hunting and gathering to agriculture to be incorrect. Contrary to earlier models, the adoption of agriculture involved an overall decline in oral and general health. This decline is indicated by elevated prevalence of various skeletal and dental pathological conditions and alterations in skeletal and dental growth patterns in prehistoric farmers compared with foragers. In addition, changes in food composition and preparation technology contributed to craniofacial and dental alterations, and activity levels and mobility decline resulted in a general decrease in skeletal robusticity. These findings indicate that the shift from food collection to food production occasioned significant and widespread biological changes in human populations during the last 10,000 years.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
White Nord

You must of creamed your pants when you thought that the Super-Negroid body plan was because of Nubians.

Too bad that you don't seem to be able to read your own studie. It said MK was probably because of Nubians, but we "know" the OK, NK etc clustered together. So you trying to play it off as "because of Nubians" has been easily refuted.

Why would you post the same thing in two forums.

You must of been really giddy.

Peace
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
WhiteNord

Also something you seem to forget while you were creaming your pants.

Tropical Body Plans Is just "ONE" line of evidence that shows Ancient Egyptians were African. here is some more facts:

Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture

Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, African Studies Chair
University of California at Los Angeles

Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.


Sir Alan Gardiner:
These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)


X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).

Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:

In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.


The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians;
page 530

Edward Lane
Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472

Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and
immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues

A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2

Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13

"Materials and methods
In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately
1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."

"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)

"On the Origin of the Egyptians. Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North." Mary Lefkowitz

Read and Learn.

Peace
 

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Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
 
Doesn't belong in Egyptology. Moved.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by arthurkemp:

What about limb-ratio claims by Negrocentrsists? Are these in any way good racial indicators?

Not really.

This is because they're too dependent on environment.

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You dummy! Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations! And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!



^ And look which group comes closest to ancient Egyptians!! LOL

quote:

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For example, high-altitude and low-altitude Andeans evolved different limb proportions in response to their different environments(Weinstein 2005), even though they are essentially the same people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

Arthur Kemp, good data, I'm impressed. But all this shows is that Egyptians were and are Caucasoids.

It does nothing to prove that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire" as you maintain in your ridiculous book (if you are even the real Arthur Kemp).

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Actually Kemp FAILS to prove the Egyptians were "caucasoid" anymore than they were 'Nordics'!















^ According to Kemp all these black Pharaohs above are 'Nubians' from the 25th dynasty! And according to YOU 'Infamous' they are 'Mediterranean' cacasians! BOTH of you are insanely wrong! LMAO
 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 

quote:

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! And according to YOU 'Infamous' they are 'Mediterranean' cacasians! BOTH of you are insanely wrong! LMAO

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No, I never said they were "Mediterranean caucasians". I challenge you to find a post of mine where I said that.

The Notion of Mediterranean/Nordic/Alpine etc races are no longer used in modern physical anthropology. They are outdated terms.

What I did say is that the data Kemp posted still holds.

If you want my take, (which is the closest to reality) they were Northeast Africans..with Modern Egyptians being physically the closest. Far, Far, away from African American Negroids from West Africa who seem to be obsessed with them.

[/QB]
 

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Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

quote:

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! And according to YOU 'Infamous' they are 'Mediterranean' cacasians! BOTH of you are insanely wrong! LMAO

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No, I never said they were "Mediterranean caucasians". I challenge you to find a post of mine where I said that.

The Notion of Mediterranean/Nordic/Alpine etc races are no longer used in modern physical anthropology. They are outdated terms.

What I did say is that the data Kemp posted still holds.

If you want my take, (which is the closest to reality) they were Northeast Africans..with Modern Egyptians being physically the closest. Far, Far, away from African American Negroids from West Africa who seem to be obsessed with them.

[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:
The African -American community has not been able to improve its circumstances despite the fact that the hardworking industrious and thrifty white race taxpayers have had to spend over a trillion dollars trying to elevate this population into a civilized standard of living.

Despite our best intentions every social welfare program has failed.

The sad truth is by any measurement the negro race in america is worse off today than it has been over the past 100 years of history.

THe prisons are filled to capacity, the cities are even worse than 3rd world status.

The living conditions are nothing short of depraved and barbaric and yet the criminal politicians are encouraging blacks to have more children,offering even greater welfare and other racial preference benefits to single black mothers.

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS MASSIVE STERILIZATION PROGRAMS ,NO MATTER THE COST!

FUTURE GENERATIONS WILL BLESS US FOR RELIEVING THEM OF THE GREAT BURDENS OF HAVING TO DEAL WITH FUTURE GENERATIONS OF USELESS BLACKS

BLACKS RACE FOLKS ARE OUR [SURPLUS POPULATION THAT WE NEED TO SWIFTLY DEAL WITH] in order to save the nation!

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quote:

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North African populations are considered genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharans.” (“Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa Human Biology2005”) [/QB]

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Absolutely, much closer.

Craniofacially, genetically, you name it.

Even the Ethiopians/Sudanese of East Africa are closer.




These Afrocentics think there is some sort of homogeneous "African race" and then I suppose once a guy from Egypt steps into the Sinai Peninsula magically a new "Asian race" appears...It doesn't work that way.
 

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Posted by SirInfamous (Member # 16497) on :
 

quote:

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So Alpine and Mediterrainian Race is no longer used but "African American" "NEGRIODS" is still used....Wait is "Negriod" even a F-ing word....you little closet racist.... Let me guess the Egyptians were "North African Darksinned Whites...I mean North African Caucasians(sarcasm) GTFOH

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by arthurkemp:

What about limb-ratio claims by Negrocentrsists? Are these in any way good racial indicators?

Not really.

This is because they're too dependent on environment.

---

You dummy! Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations! And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!



^ And look which group comes closest to ancient Egyptians!! LOL

quote:

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For example, high-altitude and low-altitude Andeans evolved different limb proportions in response to their different environments(Weinstein 2005), even though they are essentially the same people.

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altitude has nothing to do with it-- it is latitude!

quote:

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Originally posted by SirInfamous:

Arthur Kemp, good data, I'm impressed. But all this shows is that Egyptians were and are Caucasoids.

It does nothing to prove that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire" as you maintain in your ridiculous book (if you are even the real Arthur Kemp).

---

Actually Kemp FAILS to prove the Egyptians were "caucasoid" anymore than they were 'Nordics'!















^ According to Kemp all these black Pharaohs above are 'Nubians' from the 25th dynasty! And according to YOU 'Infamous' they are 'Mediterranean' cacasians! BOTH of you are insanely wrong! LMAO

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All of those pics were of nubian's.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Of course your dumb lying ass would say that. But they're NOT. They are Egyptians!

Mentuhotep 11th dynasty


Tiye, wife of Amunhotep III, grandmother of Tutankhamun 18th dynasty


King Tutankhamun 18th dynasty


Queen Hatshepsut 18th dynasty


Thutmose III 18th dynasty


Amunhotep III, husband of Tiye and grandfather of Thutankhamun 18th dynasty


Ramasia II (Ramses the Great) 21st dynasty

 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
A Kemp and White Nord,

You are wasting your time. Give it up. Egypt is an African country. Not all Africans look alike. So what.

I've met modern Egyptians. They have joined African American organizations. They have married African Americans. They live in Black neighborhoods.

As far as Ethiopians are concerned, they are some of the greatest Afrocentrists.

Years ago, I saw a movie called Sankofa by the Ethiopian producer Haile Gerima. It has been the people along the Nile River who have been on the vangaurd of Afrocentrism. You can't see the obvious. And of course, the French are a 1000 years of the African Americans in Afrocentrism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_Gerima




You lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Our great African American scholar wrote this on ancient Egypt



III ETHIOPIA AND EGYPT
Having viewed now the land and movements of African people in main outline, let us scan more narrowly the history of five main centers of activity and culture, namely: the valleys of the Nile and of the Congo, the borders of the great Gulf of Guinea, the Sudan, and South Africa. These divisions do not cover all of Negro Africa, but they take in the main areas and the main lines in development.

First, we turn to the valley of the Nile, perhaps the most ancient of known seats of civilization in the world, and certainly the oldest in Africa, with a culture reaching back six or eight thousand years. Like all civilizations it drew largely from without and undoubtedly arose in the valley of the Nile, because that valley was so easily made a center for the meeting of men of all types and from all parts of the world. At the same time Egyptian civilization seems to have been African in its beginnings and in its main line of development, despite strong influences from all parts of Asia. Of what race, then, were the Egyptians? They certainly were not white in any sense of the modern use of that word--neither in color nor physical measurement, in hair nor countenance, in language nor social customs. They stood in relationship nearest the Negro race in earliest times, and then gradually through the infiltration of Mediterranean and Semitic elements became what would be described in America as a light mulatto stock of Octoroons or Quadroons. This stock was varied continually: now by new infiltration of Negro blood from the south, now by Negroid and Semitic blood from the east, now by Berber types from the north and west.

Egyptian monuments show distinctly Negro and mulatto faces. Herodotus, in an incontrovertible passage, alludes to the Egyptians as "black and curly-haired" 1--a peculiarly significant statement from


p. 18

one used to the brunette Mediterranean type; in another passage, concerning the fable of the Dodonian Oracle, he again alludes to the swarthy color of the Egyptians as exceedingly dark and even black. Æschylus, mentioning a boat seen from the shore, declares that its crew are Egyptians, because of their black complexions.

Modern measurements, with all their admitted limitations, show that in the Thebaid from one-seventh to one-third of the Egyptian population were Negroes, and that of the predynastic Egyptians less than half could be classed as non-Negroid. Judging from measurements in the tombs of nobles as late as the eighteenth dynasty, Negroes form at least one-sixth of the higher class. 1

Such measurements are by no means conclusive, but they are apt to be under rather than over statements of the prevalence of Negro blood. Head measurements of Negro Americans would probably place most of them in the category of whites. The evidence of language also connects Egypt with Africa and the Negro race rather than with Asia, while religious ceremonies and social customs all go to strengthen this evidence.

The ethnic history of Northeast Africa would seem, therefore, to have been this: predynastic Egypt was settled by Negroes from Ethiopia. They were of varied type: the broad-nosed, woolly-haired type to which the word "Negro" is sometimes confined; the black, curly-haired, sharper featured type, which must be considered an equally Negroid variation. These Negroes met and mingled with the invading Mediterranean race from North Africa and Asia. Thus the blood of the sallower race spread south and that of the darker race north. Black priests appear in Crete three thousand years before Christ, and Arabia is to this day thoroughly permeated with Negro blood. Perhaps, as Chamberlain says, "one of the prime reasons why no civilization of the type of that of the Nile arose in other parts of the continent, if such a thing were at all possible, was that Egypt acted as a sort of channel by which the genius of Negro-land was drafted off into the service of Mediterranean and Asiatic culture." 2

To one familiar with the striking and beautiful types arising from the mingling of Negro with Latin and Germanic types in America, the puzzle of the Egyptian type is easily solved. It was unlike any of its neighbors and a unique type until one views the modern mulatto; then the faces of Rahotep and Nefert, of Khafra and Amenemhat I,


p. 19

of Aahmes and Nefertari, and even of the great Ramessu II, become curiously familiar.

The history of Egypt is a science in itself. Before the reign of the first recorded king, five thousand years or more before Christ, there had already existed in Egypt a culture and art arising by long evolution from the days of paleolithic man, among a distinctly Negroid people. About 4777 B.C. Aha-Mena began the first of three successive Egyptian empires. This lasted two thousand years, with many Pharaohs, like Khafra of the Fourth Dynasty, of a strongly Negroid cast of countenance.

At the end of the period the empire fell apart into Egyptian and Ethiopian halves, and a silence of three centuries ensued. It is quite possible that an incursion of conquering black men from the south poured over the land in these years and dotted Egypt in the next centuries with monuments on which the full-blooded Negro type is strongly and triumphantly impressed. The great Sphinx at Gizeh, so familiar to all the world, the Sphinxes of Tanis, the statue from the Fayum, the statue of the Esquiline at Rome, and the Colossi of Bubastis all represent black, full-blooded Negroes and are described by Petrie as "having high cheek bones, flat checks, both in one plane, a massive nose, firm projecting lips, and thick hair, with an austere and almost savage expression of power." 1

Blyden, the great modern black leader of West Africa, said of the Sphinx at Gizeh: "Her features are decidedly of the African or Negro type, with 'expanded nostrils.' If, then, the Sphinx was placed here--looking out in majestic and mysterious silence over the empty plain where once stood the great city of Memphis in all its pride and glory, as an 'emblematic representation of the king'--is not the inference clear as to the peculiar type or race to which that king belonged?" 2

The middle empire arose 3064 B.C. and lasted nearly twenty-four centuries. Under Pharaohs whose Negro descent is plainly evident, like Amenemhat I and III and Usertesen I, the ancient glories of Egypt were restored and surpassed. At the same time there is strong continuous pressure from the wild and unruly Negro tribes of the upper Nile valley, and we get some idea of the fear which they inspired throughout Egypt when we read of the great national rejoicing which followed the triumph of Usertesen III (c. 2660-22) over


p. 20

these hordes. He drove them back and attempted to confine them to the edge of the Nubian Desert above the Second Cataract. Hemmed in here, they set up a state about this time and founded Nepata.

Notwithstanding this repulse of black men, less than one hundred years later a full-blooded Negro from the south, Ra Nehesi, was seated on the throne of the Pharaohs and was called "The king's eldest son." This may mean that an incursion from the far south had placed a black conqueror on the throne. At any rate, the whole empire was in some way shaken, and two hundred years later the invasion of the Hyksos began. The domination of Hyksos kings who may have been Negroids from Asia 1 lasted for five hundred years.

The redemption of Egypt from these barbarians came from Upper Egypt, led by the mulatto Aahmes. He founded in 1703 B.C. the new empire, which lasted fifteen hundred years. His queen, Nefertari, "the most venerated figure of Egyptian history," 2 was a Negress of great beauty, strong personality, and of unusual administrative force. She was for many years joint ruler with her son, Amenhotep I, who succeeded his father. 3

The new empire was a period of foreign conquest and internal splendor and finally of religious dispute and overthrow. Syria was conquered in these reigns and Asiatic civilization and influences poured in upon Egypt. The great Tahutmes, III, whose reign was "one of the grandest and most eventful in Egyptian history," 4 had a strong Negroid countenance, as had also Queen Hatshepsut, who sent the celebrated expedition to reopen ancient trade with the Hottentots of Punt. A new strain of Negro blood came to the royal line through Queen Mutemua about 1420 B.C., whose son, Amenhotep III, built a great temple at Luqsor and the Colossi at Memnon.

The whole of the period in a sense culminated in the great Ramessu II, the oppressor of the Hebrews, who with his Egyptian, Libyan, and Negro armies fought half the world. His reign, however, was the beginning of decline, and foes began to press Egypt from the white north and the black south. The priests transferred their power at Thebes, while the Assyrians under Nimrod overran


p. 21

[paragraph continues] Lower Egypt. The center of interest is now transferred to Ethiopia, and we pass to the more shadowy history of that land.

The most perfect example of Egyptian poetry left to us is a celebration of the prowess of Usertesen III in confining the turbulent Negro tribes to the territory below the Second Cataract of the Nile. The Egyptians called this territory Kush, and in the farthest confines of Kush lay Punt, the cradle of their race. To the ancient Mediterranean world Ethiopia (i.e., the Land of the Black-faced) was a region of gods and fairies. Zeus and Poseidon feasted each year among the "blameless Ethiopians," and Black Memnon, King of Ethiopia, was one of the greatest of heroes.

"The Ethiopians conceive themselves," says Diodorus Siculus (Lib. III), "to be of greater antiquity than any other nation; and it is probable that, born under the sun's path, its warmth may have ripened them earlier than other men. They suppose themselves also to be the inventors of divine worship, of festivals, of solemn assemblies, of sacrifices, and every religious practice. They affirm that the Egyptians are one of their colonies."

The Egyptians themselves, in later days, affirmed that they and their civilization came from the south and from the black tribes of Punt, and certainly "at the earliest period in which human remains have been recovered Egypt and Lower Nubia appear to have formed culturally and racially one land." 1

The forging ahead of Egypt in culture was mainly from economic causes. Ethiopia, living in a much poorer land with limited agricultural facilities, held to the old arts and customs, and at the same time lost the best elements of its population to Egypt, absorbing meantime the oncoming and wilder Negro tribes from the south and west. Under the old empire, therefore, Ethiopia remained in comparative poverty, except as some of its tribes invaded Egypt with their handicrafts.

As soon as the civilization below the Second Cataract reached a height noticeably above that of Ethiopia, there was continued effort to protect that civilization against the incursion of barbarians. Hundreds of campaigns through thousands of years repeatedly subdued or checked the blacks and brought them in as captives to mingle their blood with the Egyptian nation; but the Egyptian frontier was not advanced.

A separate and independent Ethiopian culture finally began to


p. 22

arise during the middle empire of Egypt and centered at Nepata and Meroe. Widespread trade in gold, ivory, precious stones, skins, wood, and works of handicraft arose. 1 The Negro began to figure as the great trader of Egypt.

This new wealth of Ethiopia excited the cupidity of the Pharaohs and led to aggression and larger intercourse, until at last, when the dread Hyksos appeared, Ethiopia became both a physical and cultural refuge for conquered Egypt. The legitimate Pharaohs moved to Thebes, nearer the boundaries of Ethiopia, and from here, under Negroid rulers, Lower Egypt was redeemed.

The ensuing new empire witnessed the gradual incorporation of Ethiopia into Egypt, although the darker kingdom continued to resist. Both mulatto Pharaohs, Aahmes and Amenhotep I, sent expeditions into Ethiopia, and in the latter's day sons of the reigning Pharaoh began to assume the title of "Royal Son of Kush" in some such way as the son of the King of England becomes the Prince of Wales.

Trade relations were renewed with Punt under circumstances which lead us to place that land in the region of the African lakes. The Sudanese tribes were aroused by these and other incursions, until the revolts became formidable in the fourteenth century before Christ.

Egyptian culture, however, gradually conquered Ethiopia where her armies could not, and Egyptian religion and civil rule began to center in the darker kingdom. When, therefore, Shesheng I, the Libyan, usurped the throne of the Pharaohs in the tenth century B.C., the Egyptian legitimate dynasty went to Nepata as king priests and established a theocratic monarchy. Gathering strength, the Ethiopian kingdom under this dynasty expanded north about 750 B.C. and for a century ruled all Egypt.

The first king, Pankhy, was Egyptian bred and not noticeably Negroid, but his successors showed more and more evidence of Negro blood--Kashta the Kushite, Shabaka, Tarharqa, and Tanutamen. During the century of Ethiopian rule a royal son was appointed to rule Egypt, just as formerly a royal Egyptian had ruled Kush. In many ways this Ethiopian kingdom showed its Negro peculiarities: first, in its worship of distinctly Sudanese gods; secondly, in the rigid custom of female succession in the kingdom, and thirdly, by the election of kings from the various royal claimants to the throne. "It


p. 23

was the heyday of the Negro. For the greater part of the century. . . . Egypt itself was subject to the blacks, just as in the new empire the Sudan had been subject to Egypt." 1

Egypt now began to fall into the hands of Asia and was conquered first by the Assyrians and then by the Persians, but the Ethiopian kings kept their independence. Aspeluta, whose mother and sister are represented as full-blooded Negroes, ruled from 630 to 600 B.C. Horsiatef (560-525 B.C.) made nine expeditions against the warlike tribes south of Meroe, and his successor, Nastosenen (525-500 B.C.) was the one who repelled Cambyses. He also removed the capital from Nepata to Meroe, although Nepata continued to be the religious capital and the Ethiopian kings were still crowned on its golden throne.

From the fifth to the second century B.C. we find the wild Sudanese tribes pressing in from the west and Greek culture penetrating from the east. King Arg-Amen (Ergamenes) showed strong Greek influences and at the same time began to employ the Ethiopian speech in writing and used a new Ethiopian alphabet.

While the Ethiopian kings were still crowned at Nepata, Meroe gradually became the real capital and supported at one time four thousand artisans and two hundred thousand soldiers. It was here that the famous Candaces reigned as queens. Pliny tells us that one Candace of the time of Nero had had forty-four predecessors on the throne, while another Candace figures in the New Testament. 2

It was probably this latter Candace who warred against Rome at the time of Augustus and received unusual consideration from her formidable foe. The prestige of Ethiopia at this time was considerable throughout the world. Pseudo-Callisthenes tells an evidently fabulous story of the visit of Alexander the Great to Candace, Queen of Meroe, which nevertheless illustrates her fame: Candace will not let him enter Ethiopia and says he is not to scorn her people because they are black, for they are whiter in soul than his white folk. She sent him gold, maidens, parrots, sphinxes, and a crown of emeralds and pearls. She ruled eighty tribes, who were ready to punish those who attacked her.

The Romans continued to have so much trouble with their Ethiopian frontier that finally, when Semitic mulattoes appeared in the east, the Emperor Diocletian invited the wild Sudanese tribe of


p. 24

[paragraph continues] Nubians (Nobadæ) from the west to repel them. These Nubians eventually embraced Christianity, and northern Ethiopia came to be known in time as Nubia.

The Semitic mulattoes from the east came from the highlands bordering the Red Sea and Asia. On both sides of this sea Negro blood is strongly in evidence, predominant in Africa and influential in Asia. Ludolphus, writing in the seventeenth century, says that the Abyssinians "are generally black, which [color] they most admire." Trade and war united the two shores, and merchants have passed to and fro for thirty centuries.

In this way Arabian, Jewish, Egyptian, Greek, and Roman influences spread slowly upon the Negro foundation. Early legendary history declares that a queen, Maqueda, or Nikaula of Sheba, a state of Central Abyssinia, visited Solomon in 1050 B.C. and had her son Menelik educated in Jerusalem. This was the supposed beginning of the Axumite kingdom, the capital of which, Axume, was a flourishing center of trade. Ptolemy Evergetes and his successors did much to open Abyssinia to the world, but most of the population of that day was nomadic. In the fourth century Byzantine influences began to be felt, and in 330 St. Athanasius of Alexandria consecrated Fromentius as Bishop of Ethiopia. He tutored the heir to the Abyssinian kingdom and began its gradual christianization. By the early part of the sixth century Abyssinia was trading with India and Byzantium and was so far recognized as a Christian country that the Emperor Justinian appealed to King Kaleb to protect the Christians in southwestern Arabia. Kaleb conquered Yemen in 525 and held it fifty years.

Eventually a Jewish princess, Judith, usurped the Axumite throne; the Abyssinians were expelled from Arabia, and a long period begins when as Gibbon says, "encompassed by the enemies of their religion, the Ethiopians slept for nearly a thousand years, forgetful of the world by whom they were forgotten." Throughout the middle ages, however, the legend of a great Christian kingdom hidden away in Africa persisted, and the search for Prester John became one of the world quests.

It was the expanding power of Abyssinia that led Rome to call in the Nubians from the western desert. The Nubians had formed a strong league of tribes, and as the ancient kingdom of Ethiopia declined they drove back the Abyssinians, who had already established themselves at Meroe.

p. 25

In the sixth century the Nubians were converted to Christianity by a Byzantine priest, and they immediately began to develop. A new capital, Dongola, replaced Nepata and Meroe, and by the twelfth century churches and brick dwellings had appeared. As the Mohammedan flood pressed up the Nile valley it was the Nubians that held it back for two centuries.

Farther south other wild tribes pushed out of the Sudan and began a similar development. Chief among these were the Fung, who fixed their capital at Senaar, at the junction of the White and Blue Nile. When the Mohammedan flood finally passed over Nubia, the Fung diverted it by declaring themselves Moslems. This left the Fung as the dominant power in the fifteenth century from the Three Cataracts to Fazogli and from the Red Sea at Suakin to the White Nile. Islam then swept on south in a great circle, skirted the Great Lakes, and then curled back to Somaliland, completely isolating Abyssinia.

Between the thirteenth and sixteenth centuries the Egyptian Sudan became a congeries of Mohammedan kingdoms with Arab, mulatto, and Negro kings. Far to the west, near Lake Chad, arose in 1520 the sultanate of Baghirmi, which reached its highest power in the seventh century. This dynasty was overthrown by the Negroid Mabas, who established Wadai to the eastward about 1640. South of Wadai lay the heathen and cannibals of the Congo valley, against which Islam never prevailed. East of Wadai and nearer the Nile lay the kindred state of Darfur, a Nubian nation whose sultans reigned over two hundred years and which reached great prosperity in the early seventeenth century under Soliman Solon.

Before the Mohammedan power reached Abyssinia the Portuguese pioneers had entered the country from the east and begun to open the country again to European knowledge. Without doubt, in the centuries of silence, a civilization of some height had flourished in Abyssinia, but all authentic records were destroyed by fire in the tenth century. When the Portuguese came, the older Axumite kingdom had fallen and had been succeeded by a number of petty states.

The Sudanese kingdoms of the Sudan resisted the power of the Mameluke beys in Egypt, and later the power of the Turks until the nineteenth century, when the Sudan was made nominally a part of Egypt. Continuous upheaval, war, and conquest had by this time done their work, and little of ancient Ethiopian culture survived except the slave trade.

The entrance of England into Egypt, after the building of the

p. 26

Suez Canal, stirred up eventually revolt in the Sudan, for political, economic, and religious reasons. Led by a Sudanese Negro, Mohammed Ahmad, who claimed to be the Messiah (Mahdi), the Sudan arose in revolt in 1881, determined to resist a hated religion, foreign rule, and interference with their chief commerce, the trade in slaves. The Sudan was soon aflame, and the able mulatto general, Osman Digna, aided by revolt among the heathen Dinka, drove Egypt and England out of the Sudan for sixteen years. It was not until 1898 that England reëntered the Sudan and in petty revenge desecrated the bones of the brave, even if misguided, prophet.

Meantime this Mahdist revolt had delayed England's designs on Abyssinia, and the Italians, replacing her, attempted a protectorate. Menelik of Shoa, one of the smaller kingdoms of Abyssinia, was a shrewd man of predominantly Negro blood, and had been induced to make a treaty with the Italians after King John had been killed by the Mahdists. The exact terms of the treaty were disputed, but undoubtedly the Italians tried by this means to reduce Menelik to vassalage. Menelik stoutly resisted, and at the great battle of Adua, one of the decisive battles of the modern world, the Abyssinians on March 1, 1896, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Italians, killing four thousand of them and capturing two thousand prisoners. The empress, Taitou, a full-blooded Negress, led some of the charges. By this battle Abyssinia became independent.

Such in vague and general outline is the strange story of the valley of the Nile--of Egypt, the motherland of human culture and


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Footnotes
17:1 "αὐτός δὲ εἵκασα τῇδε καὶ ὅτε μελάγχροές εἰσι καὶ οὐλότριχες." Liber II, Cap. 104.

18:1 . Cf. Maciver and Thompson: Ancient Races of the Thebaid.

18:2 Journal of Race Development, I, 484.

19:1 Petrie: History of Egypt, I, 51, 237.

19:2 From West Africa to Palestine, p. 114.

20:1 Depending partly on whether the so-called Hyksos sphinxes belong to the period of the Hyksos kings or to an earlier period (cf. Petrie, I, 52-53, 237). That Negroids largely dominated in the early history of western Asia is proven by the monuments.

20:2 Petrie: History of Egypt, II, 337.

20:3 Chamberlain: Journal of Race Development, April, 1911.

20:4 Petrie: History of Egypt, II, 337.

21:1 Reisner: Archeological Survey of Nubia, I, 319.

22:1 Hoskins declares that the arch had its origin in Ethiopia.

23:1 Maciver and Wooley: Areika, p. 2.

23:2 Acts VIII, 27.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ It is a lost cause, Red. Dumb White Nerd and Dumber Arturd Kamp can argue for a white Egypt until they turn red and their hairs fall out but it cannot change the FACTS at hand!
 

---

Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
 
Simple Girl,

The wife of the President of Senegal is a white woman. There are Lebanese who have been living in Senegal for many decades. There are whites who are born in Senegal. Suppose one of them advances far in Senegalese politics. Would that make the Senegalese white or non-African?

So don't you see the illogical absurdity of your claim: generalising from a single instance of some phenomenon.
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Djehuti...facts? That is an odd word coming from someone who never uses historiographic methods of research.
 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
If the Ancient Egyptians were all black, than why are there mummies that look like this with European like hair and features? I could scan through a million photos of modern day black Africans and I bet I could never find any one that even comes close to looking like this picture of Ramses II.


 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Black Egyptians, so much silly stuff.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
TheAmericanPatriot

Whats silly is You thinking you could teach anyone anything. I would not let a 2yearold learn from a quack like you.

For as long as you have been on these forums I have never seen ONE FACT come out of your post. Only one liners and lame pleading to fake authority.

You call others Racist, yet your racism is Blatant to anyone who is foolish enough to debate you.

Peace
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
not fake authority King, good scholarship. The reason you guys get yourselves into the situations is because you do haphazard work based on personal whims.
Some advice. When you start talking about black Greeks you lose all credibility. People think you are a goof ball when you say things like that. The problem with radicals King is that they always over reach, go too far.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
TheAmericanPatriot

All I got to say to you is that you have people waiting on you to actually do something you are unfamilar with...That is post a FACT for the first time in your life.

Where in KM.T is the word Land?

If you can answer this, then you will gain my respect again.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by arthurkemp:
[QB] What about limb-ratio claims by Negrocentrsists? Are these in any way good racial indicators?

Not really.



This is because they're too dependent on environment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SirInfamous:
Absolutely, much closer.

---

quote:

---

Craniofacially, genetically, you name it.

Even the Ethiopians/Sudanese of East Africa are closer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by arthurkemp:

What about limb-ratio claims by Negrocentrsists? Are these in any way good racial indicators?

Not really.

This is because they're too dependent on environment.

---

You dummy! Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations! And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!



^ And look which group comes closest to ancient Egyptians!! LOL

quote:

---

For example, high-altitude and low-altitude Andeans evolved different limb proportions in response to their different environments(Weinstein 2005), even though they are essentially the same people.

---

altitude has nothing to do with it-- it is latitude!

quote:

---

Originally posted by SirInfamous:

Arthur Kemp, good data, I'm impressed. But all this shows is that Egyptians were and are Caucasoids.

It does nothing to prove that ancient Egypt was a "Nordic desert empire" as you maintain in your ridiculous book (if you are even the real Arthur Kemp).

---

Actually Kemp FAILS to prove the Egyptians were "caucasoid" anymore than they were 'Nordics'!















^ According to Kemp all these black Pharaohs above are 'Nubians' from the 25th dynasty! And according to YOU 'Infamous' they are 'Mediterranean' cacasians! BOTH of you are insanely wrong! LMAO

---

Melanesians come closest.


And a description means little -- ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU CLAIM "NEGROID" IS NOT ACCURATE

You claim "Negroid" means nothing - why?

Also, did they give a reason why they described it as such, since others have described it differently?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And here's what Melanesians look like, moron!



^ As you can see they are BLACK people!

Racial designations like "negroid" and "caucasoid" don't exist because human populations vary in features too much. Even within members of the same population there is going to be variation. Your definition of "negroid" is merely a narrow or restricted view on black Africans which vary in features and do not all have broad noses, kinky hair etc!

Which is why YOU LOSE!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

Djehuti...facts? That is an odd word coming from someone who never uses historiographic methods of research.

---

quote:

---

Black Egyptians, so much silly stuff.

---

The Egyptians as Africans being black is no more silly as Greeks as Europeans being white!














 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

If the Ancient Egyptians were all black, than why are there mummies that look like this with European like hair and features? I could scan through a million photos of modern day black Africans and I bet I could never find any one that even comes close to looking like this picture of Ramses II.

---

Features like narrow noses or thin lips are NOT European!




...And wavy hair is found in Africans as well!







Besides, the embalming chemicals used in mummification have been known to alter hair texture as well as color!
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
TheAmericanPatriot

Hey lowlife when are you going to show the forum where Land is in KM.T?

You have not answered this question.

Also why is there a prophecy stating that a Nubian will unite Ancient Kemet?

Answer these questions and I may think about respecting you again.

No peace for you
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ And I don't think Melanesians look like "Black people" if you ignore their skin.

Clearly - if you're speaking in genetic terms - they are the FURTHEST from Negroes.

Melanesians aren't Black, and you'd be an idiot to say so.

You first claim:
"Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations!"
So you agree with me - Thus it does not accurately indicate if they were Black or not

Then you say:
"And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!"
Which is just you spouting random information since you have agreed it means nothing.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ And I don't think Melanesians look like "Black people" if you ignore their skin.

Clearly - if you're speaking in genetic terms - they are the FURTHEST from Negroes.

Melanesians aren't Black, and you'd be an idiot to say so.

You first claim:
"Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations!"
So you agree with me - Thus it does not accurately indicate if they were Black or not

Then you say:
"And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!"
Which is just you spouting random information since you have agreed it means nothing.

---

I agree with you on this
What I can't understand is that he appeals to a term such as super negroid as it might describe the Egyptians, and then says that the term negroid is meaningless.
 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

If the Ancient Egyptians were all black, than why are there mummies that look like this with European like hair and features? I could scan through a million photos of modern day black Africans and I bet I could never find any one that even comes close to looking like this picture of Ramses II.

---

Features like narrow noses or thin lips are NOT European!




...And wavy hair is found in Africans as well!







Besides, the embalming chemicals used in mummification have been known to alter hair texture as well as color!

---

I found this article on the hair of Ramses II.
http://www.north-of-africa.com/article.php3?id_article=210
 

---

Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
that has been a common ploy here for a long time. they say there is no such thing as race and then talk about nothing but race. this takruri even talks about a black army taking the middle east. these people can't feed themselves and this guy wants to take on the world. just nutty.
 

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Posted by DULL-RAB debunkedd (Member # 16646) on :
 
Indeed- it still holds....

diagram 3- dental A- aryo-boy loses




diagram 4- aryo-boy loses



Limb proportion studies - aryo-boy loses



Black Americans, Black Africans or dark skinned tropial peoples resemble/physically closer to modern and ancient Egyptians than whites. Whether ancient or modern, the pattern is the same. - aryo-boy loses




Data from C. Loring Brace 1993 debunked - aryo-boy loses




Brace 2005 - early Euros looked like africans - aryo-boy loses




timeline of the Nile Valley- Africa - aryo-boy loses


 

---

Posted by DULL-RAB debunkedd (Member # 16646) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SirInfamous:
Bishop, I'm very aware people 15,000 years ago didn't resemble people now. Europeans 15,000 years ago would look nothing like they do now.

But this is also true for Africans as well, just look...modern "Negroid" Africans are closer to modern Greeks/Anatolians than they are to "Archaic AFricans".

---

I think that study is bias.

---

Of course, and "Nordic Egypt" interpretations have already been debunked...




another diagram - same result- 'white Egypt' debunked...


 

---

Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
that has been a common ploy here for a long time. they say there is no such thing as race and then talk about nothing but race. this takruri even talks about a black army taking the middle east. these people can't feed themselves and this guy wants to take on the world. just nutty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:

Clearly - if you're speaking in genetic terms - they are the FURTHEST from Negroes.

---

quote:

---

Melanesians aren't Black, and you'd be an idiot to say so.

---

You're saying these people below are not black??!



LMAO It's obvious who the idiot is between the two of us and it isn't ME.

quote:

---

You first claim:
"Of course limb ratios are dependent on environment because they are evolutionary adaptations!"
So you agree with me - Thus it does not accurately indicate if they were Black or not

---

quote:

---

Then you say:
"And the long limb ratios of Egyptians have not only been described as "negroid" but "super negroid"! by Robins and others!"
Which is just you spouting random information since you have agreed it means nothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

According to the experts on this site, there is no such thing as a caucasian or negro, but there is a super negro body plan lurking around somewhere. Now I'm not an expert, but wouldn't the idea of there being a super negro almost insuredly imply that there must be a common negro about the planet somewhere? How can there be super negroes without the more common negro?

---

quote:

---

Who is? Melanesians? If by "Negro", you mean African then of course, Melanesians are the most genetically distant! But Egyptians ARE Africans, you fool! And it comes to show just how silly racial terms like "negro" are when Melanesians in many craniofacial studies are described as "negro" as well!

---

quote:

---

You're saying these people below are not black??!
LMAO It's obvious who the idiot is between the two of us and it isn't ME

---

quote:

---

I NEVER agree with your idiotic claims! The Egyptians like all Africans have limb ratios that are tropically adapted! But black skin is also a tropical adaptation too, moron!! How can a population indigenous to the tropics have one adaptation but not another??!

---

quote:

---

Incorrect! Read the above! LOL

"Negro" is merely a racial label applied to tropically adapted features. In this case we are speaking of limb proportions. The Egyptians and many other populations in northeast Africa have limb proportions that are even more so elongated or tropically adapted then say typical West Africans. Thus their bodies are described as "super-negro" though the term super-tropical would be more accurate. Racial labels like "negro" as well as "caucasian" are flawed in that they convey narrow stereotype ideas. For example, whites once assigned facial features to the "negro" classification such as broad noses and broad faces. Not all black Africans have such features but have narrow faces and long narrow noses which have been stereotyped as "caucasian". So how can people have "super-negroid" skeletons, black skin (like "negroids") but have "caucasian" features??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
[QB] WhiteNord

[QUOTE]Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture

Christopher Ehret
Professor of History, African Studies Chair
University of California at Los Angeles

Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Concerning those capravoids...Lactose intolerant negroids have no use for herding cattle:

“We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans… the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an eastwest pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations , including the Iberian Peninsula… By contrast, the genetic contribution of subSaharan Africa appears to be small. … The peopling of northern Africa appears to be conditioned by the barriers imposed to the north by the Mediterranean Sea and to the south by the Sahara Desert, which constrains human movement to an east-west direction. The harsh landscape, in which mountainous areas are surrounded by arid extensions, favors a dispersed, fragmented pattern of of human settlement… Demic diffusion of Neolithic populations from the Fertile Crescent is thought to have homogenized the genetic composition of the European populations (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993, 1994), and it created a major southeast to northwest gradient (Sokal et al. 1991)… population replacement during the Neolithic from the Levant could explain the genetic similarity between Libya, Egypt, and the European populations.” (Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers” Human Biology; Bosch, E; Calafell, F; Perez-Lezaun, Et al))

---

quote:

---

The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians;
page 530

---

quote:

---

The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
With regards to the whole North African issue, as mentioned above, it has been completely resolved. For example the UN (which is not a White Nationalist organization), commissioned one of the largest historical investigations in history, involving the research, and input of literally hundreds of historians, of all races, and thousands of pages of research, and concluded Egypt was not black in origin,

However I think even more important than that one, albeit not as big, and not as comprehensive, the African Union Commission, which represents 53 African states, which is virtually every African nation (including Egypt), spent millions of dollars on their own investigation, and also reached a similar verdict.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simple Girl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemp:
With regards to the whole North African issue, as mentioned above, it has been completely resolved. For example the UN (which is not a White Nationalist organization), commissioned one of the largest historical investigations in history, involving the research, and input of literally hundreds of historians, of all races, and thousands of pages of research, and concluded Egypt was not black in origin,

However I think even more important than that one, albeit not as big, and not as comprehensive, the African Union Commission, which represents 53 African states, which is virtually every African nation (including Egypt), spent millions of dollars on their own investigation, and also reached a similar verdict.

---

Didn't Zahi Hawass suggest that the Egyptians were not black? If anyone would know it should be him. Especially since he has access to the DNA laboratory that does the testing on the mummies. Of course I'm sure over time a substantial part of the Egyptian population may have became black. Especially over a 3,000 year period. Much like the west today is becoming more mixed .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Simple Girl

Whats wrong with you?

Hawassss is not someone that knows anything except lying to apease the Euros who visit Egypt.

How about you actually take the time to read threads that speak about this instead of saying stupidness? You act more dumb then you think.
Whats with so many dumb people with stupid posts coming from.

Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
well, in fairness you seem to be wanting to use the work of a scholar to prove points you want to make but not when the conclusion may not agree with you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Simple Girl

Keep my name out your Mouth. People like you are why some people suffer brain damage trying to school you on FACTS you don't understand, thats why you are so chummy with the three racist. Your not looking to learn, If you were you would of read what Ahmed Saleh says about your boy toy Hawass. Shake off your bias and be humble and maybe you might learn something.

Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
TheAmericanPatriot
People like you are a lost cause Tap, more and more people are coming out saying AE was African
Peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
Simple Girl

You are really a simpleton. You were agreeing with the Racists and now you claim Egypt is African? Do you even know that Patriot claims Egypt is Near Eastern? Your stupidness knows no Bounds I guess thats why you can't refute this:

Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and
immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues

A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2

Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13

"Materials and methods
In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately
1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."

do you even understand what these germans are talking about, or is it flying over your head?

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You frown upon so
-called Eurocentrists when they are opposed to your views but, readily agree with anything that Europeans say when it supports your racist agenda. BTW I don't believe for one minute you are white so don't even think that I'm that stupid to believe you are.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Simple Girl

Simpleton I could careless what you think of me. Also how am I a racist please post where I said I support race, or attacked someones race. All your trying to do is get the last word in and I refuse to let someone as clueless as you get it. You have made a fool of yourself time and time again on this forum with your dumb and assinine comments.

What you fail to understand is that TRUTH is on MY side while LIES and Foolishness is on your side, you show this with your refusal to read about Ahmed Saleh.

Tell me again how I am somehow not White, thats the funniest thing I have heard in awhile. I also have some posters thinking I am a Coptic Egyptian. What Ethnicity I belong to is not important, whats important is the FACTS I have posted that counters your Simple promotion of Hawass:

Within Egypt, Hawass has been brawling lately with critics who question the methodology of the CT scan of Tut's mummy, and the forensic re-creation of his face. Hawass curbed the authority and docked the pay of one persistent foe, Ahmed Saleh, an archeological inspector for the Supreme Council who complained, among other things, that the procedures used in the facial re-creation made Tut look Caucasian, disrespecting the nation's African roots.

Now like I told you before Read and Learn Simpleton.

no peace for you
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
This is the only Pharaoh to conclusively be tested and proven as to what his racial identity was. To adamently deny this shows your own biasness and racism.

http://www.north-of-africa.com/article.php3?id_article=210
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
King, You guys on this board have been wrong on just about everything. Now, if I spent two or three days researching the race of the ancient egyptians I have to think that since you are clearly wrong about everything else you would be wrong about that as well.

It all happens because you guys simply refuse to use proper histriographic methods. You refuse because you fear that some nitch in this insane mindset might be placed in doubt in your minds.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Simple Girl

I stopped reading after they claimed Ramses to be a Berber. You really think a biased site like this would admit the truth. Your more stupid then I thought

Read this:

X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).

Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:

In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.

Now these white guys did studies on the ROYAL mummies of Ramses and his father Seti etc. Now how about you use a source that is not biased to claim a pharoah of egypt to be a Berber. Thats just sad. You really have a low selfesteem too bad.

Peace
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
TheAmericanPatriot

The one who is wrong more then anyone on this forum is YOU. Your stupid statements don't have a grain of truth in it.

Also I gave you over 30 studies from White Scientist claiming Egypt was African. What do you have? Oh Yeah you have Hawass and his opinion bahahahahahahahahah

I give Simple Girl credit for trying to use a study, something you fail to do. You could learn something from Her.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
where are your sources that show the arguments, the other points of view??? All you are doing is grab a line here and a line there to build a case.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
TheAmericanPatriot

You want a source? What would someone who is as clueless as you do with a source? Your by far the dumbest poster on this forum.

But just out of curiosity I will give you a source, Read it then Explain to us what you have read:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/mummies.htm

I hope you know how to go about searching for whatever can help you and your racist self

Peace
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
You guys have an answer for everything. Even when well preserved mummies look nothing like your typical black African. My self esteem isn't low especially considering the achievements of my people. You really must be delusional to even think a thing.

The precursors to civilization belong along or near the Black Sea. Areas just north of what was once thought to be the first civilizations along the Fertile Crescent in what is now known as Syria/Iraq.

It is only a matter of time before it will be proven that the ideas for civilization were first introduced into Egypt from these areas.

The evidence for what may actually be the first written language in the world are from those areas.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Just typical afrocentric back peddling. You know full well that Ramses II was not black. There is no substitute for good scholarship and thus far I have not seen it.
 

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Posted by ChairmanBA (Member # 16744) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:

guys have an answer for everything. Even when well preserved mummies look nothing like your typical black African

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Really?









 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Simple Girl

Ma'am we have an answer for everything because the "TRUTH" is on our side. You said ramses was the only mummy that was investigated. I proved that wrong by showing you what James Harris and Edward Wente did in there study. Little girl Simple I am sorry that you had to find out this way that you were wrong, but you really asked for it. Your low selfesteem which makes you cling to any nosense written by Racists, is known by everyone who debates you. Your so easy to read it's not even funny, It's kind of sad.

Civilization started on the Nile valley, More and more experts are finding evidence of Saharan Africans and sudanese african creating and Building ancient Kemet. In the regions called Nubia they find evidence of civilizations that predate Egypt.

Sorry to say but you will never find a scientist claiming that the KM.T was taught by people around the Black Sea, thats so stupid I would laugh, but then I remember you are just a Simple Girl so..........

Peace
 

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Posted by ChairmanBA (Member # 16744) on :
 

 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Looks like Simple Girl is refuted again.

Take it easy on her. She suffers from low selfesteem and I think would have a psychosis reaction if told she is wrong.

Sad Girl

Peace
 

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Posted by ChairmanBA (Member # 16744) on :
 
From a blog by a guy named Sundiati reguarding Ramesss

quote:

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Hair form is also a physical attribute that has been traditionally connected to "race". Given the obscurity of research on the issue, many Africanist scholars have been intimidated by the prospects of confronting what many Eurocentric scholars deemed to be "Caucasian-type" hair, still attached to the skulls of mummified remains, including the infamous case of the "red-haired" Ramses II. For those familiar with the mummification process, as well as the populations index means for hair cross sections, won't find difficulty in explaining these seeming peculiarities. It is actually quite simple to understand. Firstly, to suggest that such hair attached to any decomposed body has lasting biological inference is misleading. According to Rogers (1987), "two years years was found to be the maximum duration of Caucasian hair buried underground", while as early as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey concluded that hair alone is insufficient in determining "race". This is equally apparent of Egyptian mummies considering the embalming materials used in mummification. When hair is exposed over prolonged periods under unfavorable conditions, with the increased effect of chemicals used that lead to bond breakage and oxidation, hair generally becomes straightened and discolored. Brothwell and Spearman found evidence of cortex kertain oxidation within ancient Egyptian hair, attributing such effects to the mumification process. Also notable is that population means of cross-sections, indicative of 'straight, wavy, to whoolly hair. sub-Saharan (this obviously excludes supra-Saharan populations) African populations are found to average out to around 60 µm, aboriginal Australians/Tasmanians from 64-68 µm, while Europeans had an average of 71. Strouhal, in analyzing pre-dynastic remains at El-Badari, Egypt, found an average ranging from around 35-65 µm. Strouhal also reported a predominance in hair color that generally varied from dark brown to Black for the whole of dynastic Egyptians. Other studies found similar variation that seems to consistently hover around the area of 60-66 µm. Indeed, this is well removed from the range of European hair form, while the color and indices do not exclude African and Australians/Tasmanian populations of noted tropical adaptation. Once the unlikely scenario of Australians/Tasmanian contribution to the Egyptian gene pool is ruled out, and indigenous African diversity is appreciated (Northern and Southern), the African context of ancient Egyptian hair form is apparent. Indeed, Keita directly addresses this issue, citing that early hair as was described by Strouhal, was drastically no different from that of the Fulani, Kanuri, and Somali populations of East, West, and Central Africa. Individuals have also been the point of contention concerning this particular area of inference. For example, in direct response to Diop's assertions, it was suggested by the French Egyptologist Lionel Balout, that Ramses II was a "red headed, wavy-haired Leucoderm", as was gathered by microscopic analysis of the hair shaft and the presence of Phaeomelanin (red color). On closer inspection however, the red color in the hair was manifestly weak, and can actually be described as auburn. This is a condition seen visibly in contemporary populations of the Sudan (including the Beja). Equally telling is the little known fact that the active MC1R gene responsible for red hair actually originates in and is widely visible though out Africa. In addition, actual studies have found evidence of similar manifestation in modern Southern Sudanese who have shown cases of Blondism, generally at an early age. All of these populations are of indigenous African derivation. One of Balout's biggest mistakes was also publishing the results of the trichometric measurements that found Ramses II's hair averaged at around 60-70 (a median which is 65) µm; completely within the range of indigenous African diversity, non-indicative of any European or "Leucoderm" ancestry. This, not mentioning Harris and Weeks' X-Ray analysis of Ramses' cranio-facial structure, again showing him as an individual to fit well within the range of African variation. Though his obscure origins are still a matter of debate, given certain peculiarities surrounding his parentage among other things, the biological data alone doesn't seem to support Eurocentric claims that Ramses II was definitely of European or Asiatic extraction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Looks like Simple Girl is refuted again.

Take it easy on her. She suffers from low selfesteem and I think would have a psychosis reaction if told she is wrong.

Sad Girl

Peace

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChairmanBA:

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChairmanBA:
Simple Girl what do you think about this

http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/

?

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What exactly should I think about said website? What do you want me to say about a website that cators to specifically afrocentric views?
 

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Posted by ChairmanBA (Member # 16744) on :
 
How can you just dismiss that kind of anthropological evidence? What evidence must I present to convince you the ancient Egyptians were black? You are correct. The ancient Egyptians being black is a belief that is commonly held by “Afrocentrics” but if I present other evidence that supports black Egypt are you going to dismiss it because of that trivial reason alone?
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Simple Girl

What did I say. I swore I said "USUALLY" just like when in the Old kingdom times Egyptians painted women in light color to show femininity.

In new Kingdom women were portrayed in Dark skin color to show Equality with the Pharoah Look at this pic of King Tut and his wife:





You are truly a sad sack poster. Ask any scientist how long Caucasian hair lasts after death. They can explain better about how the hair is lost in "Caucasians"

Someday I pray you get the help you need. Hanging around here will only deepen your psychosis. Simple Girl, Sad Girl

Peace
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Simple Girl

What did I say. I swore I said "USUALLY" just like when in the Old kingdom times Egyptians painted women in light color to show femininity.

In new Kingdom women were portrayed in Dark skin color to show Equality with the Pharoah Look at this pic of King Tut and his wife:






You are truly a sad sack poster. Ask any scientist how long Caucasian hair lasts after death. They can explain better about how the hair is lost in "Caucasians"

Someday I pray you get the help you need. Hanging around here will only deepen your psychosis. Simple Girl, Sad Girl

Peace

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If I actually thought you were telling the truth I would agree with you. AE was what it was and nothing can change that. I'm not here to force my opinion regardless of what AE was. I'm merely voicing my opinion on what I believe AE was.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
ChairmanBA

Simple Girl carries her name well. She is very Simple. Even if you post facts from white scholars she will also dismiss it and cling to the lies she has been taught.

She can't help herself, she has a kinship to the mummies of the Kings and Queens of KM.T that she thinks they were anything but African. When you finally show her unrefuted FACTS, she will then claim that the Black Sea was the older and better civilization. Deep down she knows this is a lie, but she has to make herself feel better. So she will attack and claim Egypt when it suits her ideas.

She will probably say those pics of TUT and his WIFE were forgery since we see Tut in natural dark brown skin tone unlike Natgeos gay looking pic of Tut.

Sad girl she really is.

Peace
 

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Posted by ChairmanBA (Member # 16744) on :
 




verses












I think the ancient Egyptians resemble black africans more than white americans.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Simple Girl

You have a lot of potential, you should not surround yourself with racists. You have proven to me that you have a brain and you actually take the time to post studies and try and debate others.

I respect you thats why I took the time to answer your questions. You could be a TRUTHSEEKER like the people on this forum. Don't end up like Patriot. Continue to learn, and know that you have to be open to all truth not just those that makes you feel better about yourself. Trust me I was not always the free speaker I am now on this forum. I had to humble myself and study up on what was spoken words by the Leaders of these forums.

Peace
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ChairmanBA:




verses












I think the ancient Egyptians resemble black africans more than white americans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Simple Girl

You have a lot of potential, you should not surround yourself with racists. You have proven to me that you have a brain and you actually take the time to post studies and try and debate others.

I respect you thats why I took the time to answer your questions. You could be a TRUTHSEEKER like the people on this forum. Don't end up like Patriot. Continue to learn, and know that you have to be open to all truth not just those that makes you feel better about yourself. Trust me I was not always the free speaker I am now on this forum. I had to humble myself and study up on what was spoken words by the Leaders of these forums.

Peace

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quote:

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:

quote:

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Originally posted by ChairmanBA:




verses












I think the ancient Egyptians resemble black africans more than white americans.

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And i can equally post many pictures of AE's that look nothing like black Africans and typically like Europeans. Your cherry picked photos will do nothing to convince me or others with an inkling of intelligence that AE didn't have some influence beyond the boundries of the sub-Saharan.

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OK, if this is cherry picking then please show us some images of a WHITE LOOKING Amenhotep III. I doubt you will find many. And if you did, what does it mean?

And, more importantly, how can it be cherry picking when there are tombs FULL of such imagery from front to back and top to bottom JUST LIKE THAT? Show me a tomb FULL of white looking Egyptians from front to back and top to bottom.
The only cherry picking is of images that are white looking because MOST Egyptian art portrays men as medium to dark reddish brown and woman as yellow or pale brown. That is consistent from the old kingdom to the Late period even including the Roman period. Therefore, the implication that the Egyptians portrayed themselves PRIMARILY as white looking people is false.

Yes, Egyptian art is generalized. You cannot expect an individual portrait from a tomb to be accurate for any specific set of features. However, while it may not be accurate for any specific individual, the portrayals are GENERALLY reflective of the features found in the Egyptian population as a whole. So the fact that the men and even women at some point were painted brown means that they must generally have come in that complexion. It does not tell you exactly what shade of brown, but generally it is intended to represent the Egyptian population overall as generally medium to dark brown. Medium brown is nowhere near being white. Medium brown is something like the complexion of Nelson Mandela. Medium brown is not as dark as a Southern Sudanese, some of whom are literally jet black. In fact, many northern Sudanese are medium brown, along with many populations across Africa, most of whom are not as dark as Southern Sudanese either.

But again, if the image of Amenhotep III is but one of MANY from his tomb and there are hundreds of such in that tomb, how is that cherry picking? There are no white looking images of Amenhotep III in that tomb. Likewise the images of Amenhotep III from temples are THE SAME. Therefore, no matter how you try and spin it, Amenhotep III must have looked similar to this in life and most certainly was not white looking.
The same can also be said for his wife Queen Tiye.

A modern Egyptian with medium to dark brown skin:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blakekirkland/2638391458/
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Ole Doug M, posts modern pictures to try to make a point about ancient people. It is less than worthless for historical purposes.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Welcome aboard Chairman BA,I hope you could post over here sometimes http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/ftopic2356.php
Well I disagree with ma brother from another mother King,for if after a reasonable amount of time when you go out search for info.and present lt to Simple minds only to get what i can only imagined to be blank steers behind a moniter, I can only say just present your case and leave it at that, don't waste your time on any one or four simple minds.others are out there are getting what you produced.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Ole Doug M, posts modern pictures to try to make a point about ancient people. It is less than worthless for historical purposes.

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The picture of Amenhotep III is not a modern portrait Mr. Patriot. No matter how much whining and crying you do you cannot change images like these into somehow being portraits of golden brown/white people. They are not. Get over it.









All of these images represent whole tombs painted the same way. And yes, this modern Egyptian man is closest physically to the people and features portrayed in these paintings:



And another point of observation: most African Americans are lighter than the people depicted in Ancient Egyptian art, and their complexions more yellowish/beige brown than red/dark brown.

I know you don't like it but tough. Until you provide some evidence that supports whatever nonsense you believe either ancient or modern, I shall continue to view you as simply a whining idiot.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
I never said they were white people doug, i and everyone else do say they are Noth african caucasians. Their complexion was light brown, closer to white than black.
Showing pictures of Sudanese who have migrated up the river into egypt since ancient times is not historical evidence.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I never said they were white people doug, i and everyone else do say they are Noth african caucasians. Their complexion was light brown, closer to white than black.
Showing pictures of Sudanese who have migrated up the river into egypt since ancient times is not historical evidence.

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quote:

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The picture of Amenhotep III is not a modern portrait Mr. Patriot. No matter how much whining and crying you do you cannot change images like these into somehow being portraits of golden brown/white people. They are not. Get over it.









All of these images represent whole tombs painted the same way. And yes, this modern Egyptian man is closest physically to the people and features portrayed in these paintings:



And another point of observation: most African Americans are lighter than the people depicted in Ancient Egyptian art, and their complexions more yellowish/beige brown than red/dark brown.

I know you don't like it but tough. Until you provide some evidence that supports whatever nonsense you believe either ancient or modern, I shall continue to view you as simply a whining idiot.

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quote:

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'''MODERN SKELETAL STUDIES PLACE EGYTIANS CLOSER TO AFRICAN GROUPS'''

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

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Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth . These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.” (“Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples” J.D. Irish Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.)

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“An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using TROTTER & GLESER negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published by TROTTER & GLESER. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed <<super-negroid>>… On the subject of estimating living stature from skeletal remains, BROTHWELL (1981 p. 101) mentions that the equations which the archaeologist is generally advised to use are those of TROTTER & GLESER (1952, 1958) based on the long bone lengths of modern North American subjects; he adds, however, that modern formulae may not be appropriate to earlier populations', and no physical anthropologist is fully content with the statistics so far produced. Where living height cannot be measured directly, it is clear that the credibility of estimates must depend upon criteria such as plausibility and consistency. In the case of Egyptian mummies, for instance, the estimate may be plausible if the deviation from the measured mummy length can be explained in terms of observable deformities such as collapse of the cervical spine, curvature of the thoracic spine, or foot-droop. The estimate is consistent if individual long bones give similar results, and this will depend upon the skeleton ancient times having limb and trunk proportions similar to those of the subjects on which the modern formulae were based. ROBINS (1983) and ROBINS & SHUTE (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained for ancient Egyptian male skeletons if TROTTER & GLESER formulae for negro subjects are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south. It does, however, suggest that their physical proportions were more like those of modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal limb segments that were long compared with the proximal segments.”(“Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986 Hum Evol 1:313–324. Ruff CB. 1994)

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quote:

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'''DNA ANALYSIS OF DEEP ROOTED HAPLOGROUP "E" CLADES LINKS NUMEROUS PEOPLES TOGETHER ACROSS THE CONTINENT'''


"Recall that the Horn–Nile Valley crania show, as a group, the largest overlap with other regions. A review of the recent literature indicates that there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ‘‘racially’’ different, with ‘‘racially’’ implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2) that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.."
(S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679–689, 2004.)

"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology."
Source:
(Hisham Y. Hassan 1, Peter A. Underhill 2, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza 2, Muntaser E. Ibrahim 1. (2008). Y-chromosome variation among Sudanese: Restricted gene flow, concordance with language, geography, and history. Am J Phys Anthropology, 2008.)

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"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)

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quote:

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“The archaeological site of Tell-Duweir is located 20 miles south of Jerusalem. Its horizons span the Bronze through Iron ages. The site was excavated and crania recovered between 1933 and 1936 by the Wellcome Marston Archaeological Research Expedition to the Near East (Risdon, 1939) The site is associated with the biblical city of Lachish; Sennacherib sacked and burned Lachish in approximately 700 B.C. (Level IV-I11), and archaeology tends to support this date. Lachish at that time was part of the Judean Kingdom. Shishak, the Libyan pharaoh of the Twenty-second Egyptian Dynasty, attacked and perhaps left a garrison of his men. (1000-900 B.C. Level V) some of Shishak's army, which included Libyans and Nubians, may have settled in the district (Tufnell, 1953). Level IV is to be distinguished from Level I11 because Level IV has northeast African objects. (900-700 B.C. Level IV-I11) Egyptian, Nubian and Assyrian armies clashed in this area during the Judean Kingdom epoch (Gold, 1962; Yurco, 1980). Risdon’s work (1939) concludes that the Lachish series represents Upper Egyptians, who were residents in Lower Egypt during the Eighteenth Dynasty and who immigrated to Lachish during that time (between 1567 and 1320B.C.), remaining endogamous. Keith (1940) stating on morphological grounds that the people of Lachish, in the main, are Europeanoid of the “Mediterranean type,” as opposed to the Egyptians who are African of the “Hamitic type,” except in the delta. [Note: Hamitic is not negroid, refer to: (“Population of Nubia up to the 16th Century BC” Anthropological Review; 62:57-66 Pudlo, 1999)]

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quote:

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"When the unlikely relationships [Indian matches] and eliminated, the Egyptian series are more similar overall to other African series than to European or Near Eastern (Byzantine or Palestinian) series." (Keita 1993)

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Ku****es, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

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The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990).
S. Keita (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)

The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series."(S.O.Y. Keita. Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badari: Aboriginals or "European" Agro-Nostratic Immigrants? Craniometric Affinities Considered With Other Data. Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 36 No. 2, pp. 191-208 (2005)

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'''DENTAL STUDIES ON THE BADARI- THE FOUNDATIONAL CULTURAL GROUP FIND THEM QUITE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ANCIENTS'''

"[the Badarians] are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like.."

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"A comparison of Badari to the Naqada and Hierakonpolis samples .. contradicts the idea of a foreign origin for the Naqada (Petrie, 1939; Baumgartel, 1970)"

(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)

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'''ANCIENT EGYPTIAN RELIGIOUS PRACTICES ARE CLOSER TO THOSE OF NORTHEAST AFRICA THAN THE MIDDLE EAST ACCORDING TO MAINSTREAM SCHOLARSHIP'''

"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."

"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."
(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)

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'''EGYPT IN THE AFRICAN CULTURAL CONTEXT OF THE SAHARA AND THE SUDAN'''

"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant."(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )

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"the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. They included peoples from the Afroasiastic linguistic group and the second major African language family, Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982). Thus the earliest domestic cattle may have come to Egypt from these southern neighbors, circa 6000 B.C., and not from the Middle East.[148] Pottery, another significant advance in material cultural may also have followed this pattern, initiatied "as early as 9000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egypt. Soon thereafter, pots spread to Egyptian sites, almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East."

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“Around 8100 years ago sheep and goats occur for the first time at Nabta, introduced from Southwest Asia, where domestic caprovids had been known for over 2000 years.” (“Nabta Playa and its role in Northeastern African Prehistory" Journal of Anthropological Archaeology)

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"Cranial analysis of slightly later populations nearby have shown the population to have been intermediate to ancient Eurasians and East Africans.” (Ancient Archaeology Magazine)

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(Christopher Ehret, "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 25-27)

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Concerning those capravoids...Lactose intolerant negroids have no use for herding cattle:

“We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans… the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an eastwest pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations , including the Iberian Peninsula… By contrast, the genetic contribution of subSaharan Africa appears to be small. … The peopling of northern Africa appears to be conditioned by the barriers imposed to the north by the Mediterranean Sea and to the south by the Sahara Desert, which constrains human movement to an east-west direction. The harsh landscape, in which mountainous areas are surrounded by arid extensions, favors a dispersed, fragmented pattern of of human settlement… Demic diffusion of Neolithic populations from the Fertile Crescent is thought to have homogenized the genetic composition of the European populations (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993, 1994), and it created a major southeast to northwest gradient (Sokal et al. 1991)… population replacement during the Neolithic from the Levant could explain the genetic similarity between Libya, Egypt, and the European populations.” (Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers” Human Biology; Bosch, E; Calafell, F; Perez-Lezaun, Et al))

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'''MODERN SCHOLARSHIP PLACES ANCIENT EGYPT FIRMLY IN ITS AFRICAN CONTEXT'''

"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots. The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food." (Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture." In Egypt in Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)


"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest relatives are other north-east African languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's cultural features, both material and ideological and particularly in the earliest phases, show clear connections with that same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt was an African culture, developed by African peoples, who had wide ranging contacts in north Africa and western Asia." (Morkot, Robert (2005) The Egyptians: An Introduction. Routledge. p. 10)

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“AfroAsiatic” Do you ever question the terminology? Of course not, you’re not that bright. Afro because its in North Africa and Asiatic because that is where it originated.

“The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity… Attested presence of Caucasian people in northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times… Linguistic research suggests that the Afroasiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa and that posterior developments of the Capsian Neolithic in the Maghrib might be related to the origin and dispersal of proto-Berber speaking people into the area … Haplogroup U splits from R…The expansion of Caucasians in Africa has been correlated with the spread and diversification of Afroasiatic languages …Two autochthonous derivatives of these clades (U6b1 and U6c1) indicate the arrival of North African settlers to the Canarian Archipelago in prehistoric times, most probably due to the Saharan desiccation. The absence of these Canarian lineages nowadays in Africa suggests important demographic movements in the western area of this Continent." What remains enigmatic of the indubitable North African prehistoric colonization of the Archipelago is that it was carried out by people whose U6 lineages mainly belonged to the U6b subclade that has only been spotted in very low frequencies in the modern African populations of Morocco, Algeria, Senegal and Nigeria. Moreover, the U6b and U6c insular haplotypes belong to the autochthonous U6b1 and U6c1 branches differing by substitutions 16163 and 16129, respectively, from all their African counterparts. As the most probable arrival of the first prehistoric Canarian settlers was around 2,500 ya, it is highly improbable that these mutations occurred on the islands. Therefore, we expected to find these Canarian lineages in some place of Africa. However, after extensive sampling they have still not been detected. It is possible that they are present somewhere in low frequencies but, in any case, this phylogeographic distribution suggests that Northwest Africa suffered important demic displacements in the past… Two autochthonous U6 lineages (U6b1 and U6c1), present today in the islands, attest the survival of those aboriginal North Africans until nowadays. The fact that these Canarian lineages have not been detected in Africa and that, in contrast to the ubiquitous U6a and U6a1, the U6b and U6c lineages are scarcely spotted in present African populations, may be clues of past important demographic movements in this western area." (“Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography” Nicole Maca-Meyer, Ana M González, José Pestano, Carlos Flores, José M Larruga, Vicente M Cabrera)
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Nord, Based on examination of mummies upper egypt is only 5% negroid, lower egypt 1 %. Most of those are nubians who worked for the egyptians. There were fewer blacks in egypt than there are Japanese Americans.
 

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Posted by White Nord (Member # 14093) on :
 
”The apportionment of individuals (the average per-individual proportion of ancestry) from each of the eight populations into the four structure-defined clusters broadly corresponds to four geographical areas: Western Eurasia, Sub-Saharan Africa, China and New Guinea. Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans....” (J.F. Wilson et al. Nature Genetics 29:265-269, 2001)

“In summary, the information available on individual groups in Ethiopia and North Africa is fairly limited but sufficient to show that they are all separate from sub-Saharan Africans and that North Africans and East Africans (Ethiopian and neighbors) are also clearly separate.” (Cavalli-Sforza et al., HGHG, page 174)


“The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cu****ic people. ... The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position.” (De Stefano et al., Ann Hum Biology 2002

“On the basis of historical, linguistic, and genetic data, it has been suggested that the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times. On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas ~40% is of Caucasoid derivation .... Our Ethiopian sample also lacks the sY81-G allele, which was associated with 86% and 69% of Senegalese and mixed-African YAP+ chromosomes, respectively. This suggests that male-mediated gene flow from Niger-Congo speakers to the Ethiopian population was probably very limited ... Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males. Conversely, the Niger-Congo contribution to the Ethiopian population occurred mainly through females.” (Passarino et al., Am J Hum Genet, 1998)

“The occurrence of E*5 212 and E*5 204 alleles in two populations of the Mediterranean basin (Turkey and Italy) but not in West Africans can be explained by taking into account that the Ethiopian gene pool was estimated to be 40% of Caucasoid derivation (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). In addition, more recent phylogenetic analysis based on classical protein polymorphism (Tartaglia et al. 1996) and Y-chromosome sequence variation (Underhill et al. 2000) showed that Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin.” (Scacchi et al., Hum Biol, 2003)

“When the nonadaptive aspects of craniofacial configuration are the basis for assessment, the Somalis cluster with Europeans before showing a tie with the people of West Africa or the Congo Basin.” (Brace et al., Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 1993)

“Somali, as a representative East African population, seem to have experienced a detectable amount of Caucasoid maternal influence.” (Comas et al., Eur J Hum Genet, 1999)


“The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African—that is, the Ethiopian and Somali—populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations.”(S. A. Tishkoff et al., Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:901-925, 2000)

“Ethiopia: between Sub-Saharan Africa and Western Eurasia.” (Lovell et al., Annals of Human Genetics 2005 69,275–287)

“The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population -- closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya -- with predominant E3b1 cluster gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa. (“East Africans are more related to Eurasians than to other African populations” Sanchez et al. 2005)

They cant all be wrong, Tards



LMFAO God how this famous plastered image of modern Nubians shoot Aforcentrics in their foot

You can just see that "Northern" vs "Southern" differentiation! And to deny this fact is to be dishonest. Yes, the modern inhabitants of Sudan (Nubia) still exhibit the heavy yet ancient Caucasian influence in their genes... and to a lesser extent Somalia, just like the studies show and the pictures indicate.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Why are you posting the same nonsense when it has been DEBUNKED several times?!!

We've already explained to you that there is no such thing as "caucasoid" or "caucasian" since such features such as narrow faces or long narrow noses do NOT correlate with genetic lineages! I showed you a passage describing how skulls as far south as Tanzania were once mistaken for "cauasoid" because of their features!

The "40%" Eurasian lineages in Ethiopians you keep repeating were found in Abyssinians who do NOT represent all Ethiopians. And the relation that Egyptians have to Ethiopians is due to AFRICAN lineages moron, NOT Eurasian lineages!

Also, the only reason why Hg E lineages are found in the Mediterranean basin including Europe is becausse of migrations FROM Africa where it originated meaning that EUROPEANS ARE AFRICAN MIXED!!

Lastly the only reason why East Africans are more related to Eurasians than other Africans are is because Eurasians DESCEND from a subset of East Africans, dummy!



Again, the Egyptians relation to Ethiopians and all other Africans including West Africans is because of AFRICAN lineages like E



And lastly Eurasian does NOT mean "caucasoid"

Eurasian child

 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by White Nord:



LMFAO God how this famous plastered image of modern Nubians shoot Aforcentrics in their foot

You can just see that "Northern" vs "Southern" differentiation! And to deny this fact is to be dishonest. Yes, the modern inhabitants of Sudan (Nubia) still exhibit the heavy yet ancient Caucasian influence in their genes... and to a lesser extent Somalia, just like the studies show and the pictures indicate.

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Originally posted by Dirk8:
Sudaniya, before you try to steal Ancient Egypt's History, you should learn more about your Pathetic Sudanese People. Learn why your country is called THE LAND OF THE BLACKS and why people like you a TOTALLY FAKE!

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I'm a legitimate daughter of the Nile; I cannot steal the legacy of those whom I'm related to.

The ancient Egyptians never called my country "land of the blacks",those who do NOT belong to the Nile- Arab Egyptians who consitute a mere 20% of the current Egyptian population were the ones who called Sudan "land of the blacks"

Learn why my country was referred to as, Ta-Khent-land of the beginning, why we are the closest population to the ancient Egyptians.
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Remember these pictures:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001532;p=1
 

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Posted by White Nord (Member # 14093) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why are you posting the same nonsense when it has been DEBUNKED several times?!!

We've already explained to you that there is no such thing as "caucasoid" or "caucasian" since such features such as narrow faces or long narrow noses do NOT correlate with genetic lineages! I showed you a passage describing how skulls as far south as Tanzania were once mistaken for "cauasoid" because of their features!

The "40%" Eurasian lineages in Ethiopians you keep repeating were found in Abyssinians who do NOT represent all Ethiopians. And the relation that Egyptians have to Ethiopians is due to AFRICAN lineages moron, NOT Eurasian lineages!

Also, the only reason why Hg E lineages are found in the Mediterranean basin including Europe is becausse of migrations FROM Africa where it originated meaning that EUROPEANS ARE AFRICAN MIXED!!

Lastly the only reason why East Africans are more related to Eurasians than other Africans are is because Eurasians DESCEND from a subset of East Africans, dummy!



Again, the Egyptians relation to Ethiopians and all other Africans including West Africans is because of AFRICAN lineages like E



And lastly Eurasian does NOT mean "caucasoid"

Eurasian child

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why are you posting the same nonsense when it has been DEBUNKED several times?!!

We've already explained to you that there is no such thing as "caucasoid" or "caucasian" since such features such as narrow faces or long narrow noses do NOT correlate with genetic lineages! I showed you a passage describing how skulls as far south as Tanzania were once mistaken for "cauasoid" because of their features!

The "40%" Eurasian lineages in Ethiopians you keep repeating were found in Abyssinians who do NOT represent all Ethiopians. And the relation that Egyptians have to Ethiopians is due to AFRICAN lineages moron, NOT Eurasian lineages!

Also, the only reason why Hg E lineages are found in the Mediterranean basin including Europe is becausse of migrations FROM Africa where it originated meaning that EUROPEANS ARE AFRICAN MIXED!!

Lastly the only reason why East Africans are more related to Eurasians than other Africans are is because Eurasians DESCEND from a subset of East Africans, dummy!



Again, the Egyptians relation to Ethiopians and all other Africans including West Africans is because of AFRICAN lineages like E



And lastly Eurasian does NOT mean "caucasoid"

Eurasian child

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The racial determination of an individual is based on the preponderance of ancestry, which is determined by the relative statistical frequencies of mtDNA and Y-chromosomal haplogroups, not phenotypical traits; this technique is known as STRUCTURE-mediated k-means Bayesian clustering analysis. The terms "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" are valid taxonomic constructs in so much as they cluster around those gene frequencies which statistically correlate with the average population-specific genotypes of either the Caucasoid or Negroid ethno-racial type.


You're saying that Caucasoid doesn't exist, but Negroid does, especially when it comes to your beloved Egyptians? You are a moron.


The ancient Egyptians may be indigenous Africans, but being an indigenous African does not make one Negroid. And besides, according to the most recent evidence, as provided by the study of Chandrasekar et al. (2007), it has been established conclusively that Y-DNA haplogroup DE is of Asiatic, and not African origin, the result of a back-migration of Y-DNA from Asia to Africa. Hence, the presence of population-specific versions of haplogroup E within either Caucasoid or Negroid races need not be any indication of previous intermixture between the two.


I thought Egyptians were Negroids according to you? Now they're related more to Eurasians than other Africans? You seem confused.


You seem to forgetthat haplogroup E, a subclade of haplogroup DE, exists in two forms which racially differentiate both North African and sub-Saharan populations from each other: E1b1a, the Negroid variant, is found only in Africoid Negroes, whereas E1b1b, the Caucasoid variant, is found in Arabs, Berbers and people of mixed racial ancestry, such as Ethiopians and Somalis.


Hence, given the fact that Haplogroup DE is of Asiatic origin, and that E1b1a is found only in Negroids and E1b1b is found only in Caucasoids or individuals of mixed Caucasoid/Negroid ancestry, without any significant overlap between the frequency of E1b1a or E1b1b in either population, it should be obvious that Egyptians are more related to other North African Caucasoids than Negroids.


Robin and Shute have already explained in both their 1983 and 1986 studies, the use of the term super-negroid in regard to Egyptian skeletal morphology does not mean that the Egyptians were Negroid; in fact, according to the same study the Egyptians are actually Caucasoid, not Negroid. The 1993 study of Paabo and Di Rienzo found a small minority of aDNA lineages from sub-Saharan Africa, but the vast majority of lineages that were actually found were obviously Caucasoid in origin. In regards to the 2004 Kivisild study, both southern Egyptians and Ethiopians would share some mtDNA lineages in common because Ethiopians are partially Caucasoid in origin. Unfortunately for you, the relatively high frequencies of the M1 haplotype detected by Kivisild are Western Asiatic, and not sub-Saharan African, in origin. This finding indicates that the presence of the mtDNA haplogroup M1 amongst Ethiopians is due exclusively to Caucasoid admixture.


Nubians are partially to mostly Caucasoid in origin. However, a few isolated remains at a single location at the southern end of the country is hardly typical of the ethno-racial composition of the Egyptian population as a whole. DNA analysis which determines racial affiliation, not phenotype.


The latest research reveals that haplogroup E is Asiatic in origin, not African, and that there are two forms of E that are both non-overlapping and population-specific, with E1b1a being found only in Negroids and E1b1b being found only in Caucasoids.


Racial affiliation is not determined on the basis of phenotype, but upon population-specific mtDNA and Y-DNA gene frequencies.

And nigger, are you still quoting from Keita's out-dated and ideologically motivated 1990 study? This was refuted by Brace in the 1993 study Clines and clusters versus Race: a test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile. Let's see what he has to say on the subject:
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
, all of the most recent research conducted by modern geneticists reveals that the Egyptian gene pool clusters much more closely with other Mediterranean Caucasoids, than with any group of Negroids. Here, let's look at the major studies:

Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) compared populations from throughout the world using extensive genetic data. The North African populations grouped with West Eurasian (European, Middle East) populations rather than sub-Saharan Africans.

Di Rienzo et al. (1994) studied the relationship of three samples (taken from Egyptians, Sardinians, and sub-Saharan Africans), using mitochondrial DNA and simple sequence repeats. In terms of genetic distance, the Egyptian sample was closer to the Sardinian sample than to the sub-Saharan African
sample.

Hammer et al. (1997) used seven different methods to compute population trees of world populations, using Y-chromosome data. All seven methods grouped the Egyptians with the non-African populations rather than with the sub-Saharan Africans. Egyptians' genetic profile resembles that of South Europeans more than the other regional groups in the study.

Poloni et al. (1997). Egyptians and a few other African populations (Tunisians, Algerians, and even Ethiopians) showed a stronger Y-chromosome similarity to non-African Mediterraneans than to the remainder of Africans mostly from south of the Sahara.

Bosch et al. (1997), using classical genetic markers, calculated Egyptians to be genetically very close to Mediterranean Asians and Europeans.


First, race is determined by DNA, not phenotype.

Second, peoples like the Nubians and the Ethiopians bear some genetic similarity to native Egyptians because of substantial Caucasoid intermixture.

Third, studies such as those of E Bosch et al. (1997) clearly demonstrate that Egyptians are more related to Mediterranean Caucasoids, than Negroids.

Fourth, in none of the studies produced by S.O.Y. Keita does he ever state that the Egyptians are Negroid in racial origin.

Fifth, the presence of slight traces of Negroid admixture in certain segments of a given population does not make that population Negroid.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
bump[ I just owned Djenuti I have to keep this on top.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Looks like I ran that Djenuti nut off.

WHITE EGYPT ACCEPT NO SUBSITUTE...........
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You own NOTHING but your stupidity.

There is no such thing as "caucasoid" or "negroid" and the reasons why are explained HERE!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by White Nerd:

lol Gee yeah way to nitpick what could actually refute! You can't address half the **** in my post retard! It's also funny how your punkass can repost those studies in dirks thread, while not even attempting to address my post which refutes most if not all of those study interpretations DUMBASS!

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LOL It is YOU who is the dumbass! You fail to realize that not half but *ALL* of what you post has been DEBUNKED here YEARS ago! That's one of the main reasons why I don't even bother to address every point you make! Another reason is that I'm busy with more important things in my life. But if you want to, you can bring up one lousy point at a time and I can tear you up slowly.
 

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Posted by White Nord (Member # 14093) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by White Nerd:

lol Gee yeah way to nitpick what could actually refute! You can't address half the **** in my post retard! It's also funny how your punkass can repost those studies in dirks thread, while not even attempting to address my post which refutes most if not all of those study interpretations DUMBASS!

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LOL It is YOU who is the dumbass! You fail to realize that not half but *ALL* of what you post has been DEBUNKED here YEARS ago! That's one of the main reasons why I don't even bother to address every point you make! Another reason is that I'm busy with more important things in my life. But if you want to, you can bring up one lousy point at a time and I can tear you up slowly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ You own NOTHING but your stupidity.

There is no such thing as "caucasoid" or "negroid" and the reasons why are explained HERE!

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Egyptians do share a common genetic lineage with the Mediterranean basin but that paternal genetic lineage is PN2 derived Hg E which is indigenous to and shared by *ALL* Africans!! Essentially it's prevalence in Mediterranean Europe and overall one-third of Europeans means that EUROPEANS ARE MIXED WITH AFRICANS!!

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And then on the maternal lineage the Egyptians share U6 with most other North Africans. U6 likely originated in Africa because its diversity and frequency are greatest in Africa with only minimal presence in the so-called 'Near East'! The only reason why it's called 'Eurasian' is because it bears a strong similarity to other lineages in Eurasia that are labeled 'U'. But the same is said for M1 which is prevalent in East Africa and nowhere else yet bears a resemblance to M* derived lineages in Eurasia. The problem is that Eurasian lineages ultimately originated in Africa which is why similarities occur! It is not conclusive that U6 originated in Asia but if so, it only occurred during the paleolithic not too long after the ancestors of Eurasians left Africa! Which is why Eurasian does NOT mean non-black or even 'cacazoid'!

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Wrong again, nigger. U is descended from the R haplogroup, which is West Asian-specific and is only found in high frequencies outside of Africa, especially amongst the Romani of Eastern Europe. Because R is only found in West Asia and U split off from R over 55, 000 years ago, it should be obvious that U is of Asiatic origin and only exists in North Africa due to the phenomenon of human reverse-migration.

Moreover, according to the latest research, conducted by Rajkumar et al. in 2005, M is of exclusively Asiatic origin. The authors of the study write:


This study describes five new basal mutations and recognizes two new lineages, M30 and M31 that substantially contribute to the present understanding of macrohaplogroup M. These two newly erected lineages include the previously independent lineages M18 and M6 as sub-lineages within them, respectively, suggesting that most mt DNA genomes might arise as limited offshoots of M trunk. Furthermore, this study supports the non existence of lineages such as M3 and M4 that are solely defined on the basis of fast mutating control region motifs and hence, establishes the importance of coding region markers for an accurate understanding of the phylogeny. The deep roots of M phylogeny clearly establish the antiquity of Indian lineages, especially M2, as compared to Ethiopian M1 lineage and hence, support an Asian origin of M macrohaplogroup .


Other reasons for why the subclade M1 in particular is not an indicator of sub-Saharan ancestry include the fact that there is much greater M diversity in Asia than Africa and that all of the basal branches of M are found only in Eurasia and nowhere else, meaning that M is of Western Asian origin. In conclusion, if U6 or M1 are present amongst sub-Saharan Negroid populations, it is because of Caucasoid intermixture.


the latest research of Rosenberg et al. (2002, 2005) clearly demonstrates that when enough multi-allelic markers (SNPs) are used, the Structure-mediated k-means Bayesian clustering analysis will produce 5 distinct gene clusters that correspond with measures of self-described biogeographical ancestry: these include the Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid, and Amerindian racial groups. Therefore, you're "race-does-not-exist" argument is ridiculous, at best. And again nigger, racial affiliation is determined on the basis of underlying genetic structure, not craniometry or any other measures of human physical dimensions
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:


This is like posting a picture of Obama out of over 40 presidents and claiming that the United States was founded by black Africans. T
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M:


This is like posting a picture of Obama out of over 40 presidents and claiming that the United States was founded by black Africans.

Can you relate to us how old Egypt was after 18 dynasties? I mean compare that to the age of the United States. When the United States is as old as Egypt was up until 18 dynasties, how many black or mixed presidents do you suppose it will have had?

You have simply proven nothing. I won't even consider that a nice try.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Please do not feed the trolls.

Of course we all know these racists are coming here to pretend to "battle" someone over racial supremacy and pretend to show off by throwing racial slurs, insults and other signs of low intelligence. Stop feeding them. They aren't here for truth or anything approaching it.

Simply put, there was no European world until 500 years ago. All ancient civilizations originate OUTSIDE of Europe. Therefore they can perpetuate all the fantasy fables they want. They are simply unreal. If you ask them to go find the ancient roots of civilization in Northern or Western Europe, they will find none. Since they cannot showcase any Western European ruins of civilization going back 5,000 to 6,000 years ago, they must seek to try and dominate the discussion and ideas about the origins of civilizations thousands of miles from Europe that their ancestors had no part in. It is this nonsensical farce that they call history, which allows them to wallow in their own self pity for having to kill, claw, rape, pillage and murder their way to the top. Unable to hide their savagery and brutality, which is the sign of the true animal, they cover it up with a veneer of racist supremacy, which is nothing but more excrement on top of an already festering heap of waste.

It is not worth your time to argue with such clowns.

No fool in their right minds would follow fools into the folly of insanity expecting to find nuggets of wisdom.

White Europeans were ignorant of most history only up until 500 years ago, when they DISCOVERED there was world outside of Europe. Something humans had "discovered" tens of thousands of years ago. Yet these recent arrivals want to pretend to be more superior than their own history allows. They did not even "discover" Egypt, something that was many thousands of years old and EVERYONE ELSE knew about until 300 years ago, which formed the fertile essence for the birth of their nation. A nation born of the black magic and alchemy of national race consciousness and destruction of the black seed. They have no mysteries, no secrets, no treasures other than that of the black god they run away from, hiding the history, artifacts and truth in order to maintain a lie.

They are false prophets, liars, deceivers and the snake of deception. Do not argue with them, they have nothing to share and are not worth the effort.

If they were so superior, not only would the first evidence of civilization be IN Europe, but also the first evidence of the human species itself. But it is not. Europe is a cold barren wasteland of historical emptiness, devoid of any signs of early life or civilization they can cling to. Therefore they have no choice but to attack the womb and claim to be before the mother and father, which is biologically impossible. It is a sign of insanity and instability which ultimately dooms all who come in touch with it.

You must not argue with them because they have nothing sane to say that will ever amount to anything.
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Doug, you sound silly calling people trolls. You never ever present peer reviwed evidence from mainstream scholars to back up any of your points. Just more and more Dougisms.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Please do not feed the trolls.
It is not worth your time to argue with such clowns.
White Europeans were ignorant of most history only up until 500 years ago, when they DISCOVERED there was world outside of Europe. Something humans had "discovered" tens of thousands of years ago.

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In his Rape of the Nile, Brian Fagan presented a popular survey showing how Europeans and later Americans descended upon Egypt as soldiers, tourists, and scholars to loot the country's ancient heritage with no concern for the aspirations of the Egyptians themselves. Fred Bratton's A History of Egyptian Archaeology traced the development of modern Egyptology with no reference to Egyptian scholars. Reid (history, Georgia State Univ.), the author of several books on the Middle East, here offers a scholarly assessment of the reaction of the Egyptian intelligentsia to the plundering and control of the nation's antiquities and the role these activities played in the growth of Egyptian nationalism. As Reid shows, the Europeans established museums for Pharaonic artifacts but paid little or no attention to the Coptic and Islamic architectural and artistic legacy. The Egyptians took it upon themselves to found museums and institutions to preserve and study these treasures. Reid documents the tensions between the Egyptians and the Europeans who administered Egyptian institutions in a lively narrative with full references and an extensive bibliography. Recommended for academic and larger public libraries. Edward K. Werner, St. Lucie Cty. Lib. Syst., Ft. Pierce, FL
Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

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Furthermore, this was a difficult time in Egypt. There was a serious and growing movement for an independent Egyptian state, even though it would take another three decades to achieve. For those involved in the movement, known as Nationalists, the Times agreement provided a big Artical from a competing newspaper of the timesstick with which to beat not only the British "colonialists", but foreigners in general. It would eventually result in the Tut expedition's undoing, at least for a while.

After the official "discovery" of the tomb on February 16, 1923, and the revelation that the boy king laid undisturbed within his tomb, there was a growing pressure to make the find public. There was also the legal question of the treasure's division. If the tomb was classified as "intact", the Egyptian Government would, under the terms of the concession, be entitled to deny the excavators' claims to any share of the objects that were recovered.

Indeed, the issue of how best to deal with the discovery created difficulties between Carter and Carnarvon which ultimately resulted in a falling out between the two men. On February 23rd, 1923, Carter went so far as to demand that Carnarvon never enter his house again. Yet, that did not prevent the cloud of doom that fell over the expedition camp following Lord Carnarvon's death some months later. Lord Carnarvon had not only been their sponsor, but an influential one as well.

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The Egyptian Government is seeking to reclaim a trove of more than 300 artifacts found in the ancestral home of the British nobleman who financed the excavation of the tomb of King Tutankhamun in 1922.

The dispute developed after Lord Carnarvon, grandson of the original collector, revealed on Monday that the ancient objects had been hidden away for more than 60 years in a sealed cupboard at Highclere Castle.

Lord Carnarvon said the relics, found last fall, were the least valuable remnants of a now priceless collection that his grandfather's estate sold to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in 1926 for $145,000. Finds and 'Archeological Junk'

A British Museum offical, Harry James, said the Highclere cache contained a few objects with unique historical and artistic value along with ''archeological junk'' found by Lord Carnarvon and his excavator, Howard Carter, in the years leading up to their spectacular discovery of the Tutankhamun treasures in the Valley of the Kings near Luxor between 1907 and 1911.

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Conflicted Antiquities is superb, the definitive work on the place of ancient Egypt in the imaginations and politics of Europe and Egypt. Elliott Colla presents translations and analyses of Arabic literature not previously available, and he brings together for the first time European and modern Egyptian appropriations of and discourses on ancient Egypt. The range of materials that he analyzes is astounding and rich; the footnotes alone are worth the price of the book." -- Lila Abu-Lughod, author of Dramas of Nationhood: The Politics of Television in Egypt "Written in an engaging, thoughtful, and provocative style, Conflicted Antiquities provides a unique perspective on the 'consumption' of ancient Egypt. What makes it distinctive is Elliott Colla's focus on Egyptian readings of the ancient past, an area which has been greatly neglected. Colla has much that is fresh and new to contribute, especially since the resources on which he draws are not widely known nor easy to get hold of."-- Stephanie Moser, author of Wondrous Curiosities: Ancient Egypt at the British Museum "The history of the archaeology of ancient Egypt is fairly straightforward, one might think, but, as this excellent thought-provoking book reveals it is far more complex than that...This book shows that the study of ancient Egypt and its material legacy was as important and as consequential for modern Egyptians as it was for Europeans. It is a fascinating and enlightening story." Robert B. Partridge, Ancient Egypt. The History, People and Culture of the Nile Valley, Vol. 9, Issue 49, August/September 2008

Product Description
Conflicted Antiquities is a rich cultural history of European and Egyptian interest in ancient Egypt and its material culture, from the early nineteenth century until the mid-twentieth. Consulting the relevant Arabic archives, Elliott Colla demonstrates that the emergence of Egyptology--the study of ancient Egypt and its material legacy--was as consequential for modern Egyptians as it was for Europeans. The values and practices introduced by the new science of archaeology played a key role in the formation of a new colonial regime in Egypt. This fact was not lost on Egyptian nationalists, who challenged colonial archaeologists with the claim that they were the direct heirs of the Pharaohs, and therefore the rightful owners and administrators of ancient Egypt's material remains. As this dispute developed, nationalists invented the political and expressive culture of "Pharaonism"--Egypt's response to Europe's Egyptomania. In the process, a significant body of modern, Pharaonist poetry, sculpture, architecture, and film was created by artists and authors who looked to the ancient past for inspiration.

Colla draws on medieval and modern Arabic poetry, novels, and travel accounts; British and French travel writing; the history of archaeology; and the history of European and Egyptian museums and exhibits. The struggle over the ownership of Pharaonic Egypt did not simply pit Egyptian nationalists against European colonial administrators. Egyptian elites found arguments about the appreciation and preservation of ancient objects useful for exerting new forms of control over rural populations and for mobilizing new political parties. Finally, just as the political and expressive culture of Pharaonism proved critical to the formation of new concepts of nationalist identity, it also fueled Islamist opposition to the Egyptian state.

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Review
"Now that Scott Trafton has taught us the meaning of Egyptomania, we'll all be seeing its register everywhere and feeling astonished that we weren't noticing it before." Dana D. Nelson, author of National Manhood: Capitalist Citizenship and the Imagined Fraternity of White Men "A magnificent piece of scholarship, Egypt Land does justice to the complexity of the work of nation- and race-making as such work moved circularly along axes of racialized science, ideology, Biblical and political authority, songs, and images, producing social and material effects. In short, the imagining of ancient Egypt was a weapon among an array of agents that both made and resisted, as Scott Trafton puts it, the 'iconography of empire.'"--Wahneema Lubiano, editor of The House That Race Built "Now that Scott Trafton has taught us the meaning of Egyptomania, we'll all be seeing its register everywhere and feeling astonished that we weren't noticing it before."--Dana D. Nelson, author of National Manhood: Capitalist Citizenship and the Imagined Fraternity of White Men "Egypt Land is an exceptional interdisciplinary study of the centrality of Egyptomania to considerations of race and nation in nineteenth-century America."--Robert S. Levine, author of Martin Delany, Frederick Douglass, and the Politics of Representative Identity

Product Description
Egypt Land is the first comprehensive analysis of the connections between constructions of race and representations of ancient Egypt in nineteenth-century America. Scott Trafton argues that the American mania for Egypt was directly related to anxieties over race and race-based slavery. He shows how the fascination with ancient Egypt among both black and white Americans was manifest in a range of often contradictory ways. Both groups likened the power of the United States to that of the ancient Egyptian empire, yet both also identified with ancient Egypt’s victims. As the land which represented the origins of races and nations, the power and folly of empires, despots holding people in bondage, and the exodus of the saved from the land of slavery, ancient Egypt was a uniquely useful trope for representing America’s own conflicts and anxious aspirations.

Drawing on literary and cultural studies, art and architectural history, political history, religious history, and the histories of archaeology and ethnology, Trafton illuminates anxieties related to race in different manifestations of nineteenth-century American Egyptomania, including the development of American Egyptology, the rise of racialized science, the narrative and literary tradition of the imperialist adventure tale, the cultural politics of the architectural Egyptian Revival, and the dynamics of African American Ethiopianism. He demonstrates how debates over what the United States was and what it could become returned again and again to ancient Egypt. From visions of Cleopatra to the tales of Edgar Allan Poe, from the works of Pauline Hopkins to the construction of the Washington Monument, from the measuring of slaves’ skulls to the singing of slave spirituals—claims about and representations of ancient Egypt served as linchpins for discussions about nineteenth-century American racial and national identity.

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Crania Americana; or, A Comparitive View of the Skulls of Various Aboriginal Nations of North and South America: To which is Prefixed An Essay on the Varieties of the Human Species
Philadelphia: J. Dobson, 1839

Often thought of as the father of American scientific racism, Samuel George Morton casts a long shadow across American Egyptomania. A Philadelphia physician long recognized as an important figure in the history of American science, Morton was perhaps most famous during his lifetime for his collection of crania: hundreds and hundreds of human skulls collected from all over the world, sent to him for measurement and cataloguing, and classified by him according to racial type. Students of the human body had long recognized the wide variety of shapes found in human heads all across the world, but Morton took it upon himself to collect as many as possible, divide them up, and classify them according to race; the problem was that no one had ever done anything quite like this on such a large scale, and so it fell to Morton himself to practically invent the very racial categories he was to be using for classification. Using careful but deeply problematic measurements, Morton decided at what point in the variety of human skulls Caucasians stopped being Caucasians, and Negroes began being Negroes. Morton was thus a crucial figure not just in the history of American race science, but in the history of the very notion of race itself.

Interestingly, much of Mortons collection of crania came from people long dead. With the rise of archaeology, Morton had access to a much larger set of skulls from across large expanses of time and this meant that skulls from ancient Egyptians figured prominently in his collection. This also meant that Morton was on the frontlines of current debates about what would later be called evolution: whether certain groups of people changed in general physical type over great lengths of time, or whether ancient humans were physically the same as modern humans. Morton himself was fully aware of the stakes of this debate: if ancient crania were the same as modern crania, and, given the racial categories Morton was constructing, if ancient negro crania were the same as modern negro crania, then that meant that racial differences between humans were a permanent and everlasting aspect of human life and, for some, that meant that negroes had always been and would always be inferior to whites.

To make matters worse, Morton was also associated with the two most openly racist figures in the history of American Egyptology, Josiah Clark Nott and George Robins Gliddon. Nott and Gliddon were transfixed by Mortons research, and used it as the basis for their landmark 1854 Types of Mankind, which was both openly dedicated to Morton (Morton having died just prior to the publication of the Types), and openly dedicated to the proposition that negro types were inherently inferior to Caucasian types. Together with Nott and Gliddon, then, Morton is thought of as one of the three founders of what was (and still is) known as the American School of Ethnology, infamous for its combination of early Egyptology and proslavery politics.

This selection is one of Mortons two major works: Crania Americana, published in 1839. (Mortons other work, not coincidentally, was Crania Aegyptiaca, and was a study of ancient Egyptian skulls.) As its subtitle indicates, however, it is not just a study of American (by which Morton meant Native American and Central and South American) crania; included as the main front section is a general essay on the varieties of the human species, which today stands as Mortons major statement on racial difference. (Not uninterestingly for a study of American Egyptomania, it opens with a long discussion of the Nilotic family, and offers some special discussions On the Supposed Affinity between the Egyptians and Negroes.) It is an often-cited but rarely read text, foundational to the study of American race science.

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Originally posted by Kemp:

You moronic nigger animal, how many times do I have to explain that E is of primarily Asiatic origin and that there exists both a Negroid-specific and a Caucasoid-specific variant of the E haplogroup?

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Wrong again, nigger. U is descended from the R haplogroup, which is West Asian-specific and is only found in high frequencies outside of Africa, especially amongst the Romani of Eastern Europe. Because R is only found in West Asia and U split off from R over 55, 000 years ago, it should be obvious that U is of Asiatic origin and only exists in North Africa due to the phenomenon of human reverse-migration.

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Moreover, according to the latest research, conducted by Rajkumar et al. in 2005, M is of exclusively Asiatic origin. The authors of the study write:


This study describes five new basal mutations and recognizes two new lineages, M30 and M31 that substantially contribute to the present understanding of macrohaplogroup M. These two newly erected lineages include the previously independent lineages M18 and M6 as sub-lineages within them, respectively, suggesting that most mt DNA genomes might arise as limited offshoots of M trunk. Furthermore, this study supports the non existence of lineages such as M3 and M4 that are solely defined on the basis of fast mutating control region motifs and hence, establishes the importance of coding region markers for an accurate understanding of the phylogeny. The deep roots of M phylogeny clearly establish the antiquity of Indian lineages, especially M2, as compared to Ethiopian M1 lineage and hence, support an Asian origin of M macrohaplogroup .


Other reasons for why the subclade M1 in particular is not an indicator of sub-Saharan ancestry include the fact that there is much greater M diversity in Asia than Africa and that all of the basal branches of M are found only in Eurasia and nowhere else, meaning that M is of Western Asian origin. In conclusion, if U6 or M1 are present amongst sub-Saharan Negroid populations, it is because of Caucasoid intermixture.

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the latest research of Rosenberg et al. (2002, 2005) clearly demonstrates that when enough multi-allelic markers (SNPs) are used, the Structure-mediated k-means Bayesian clustering analysis will produce 5 distinct gene clusters that correspond with measures of self-described biogeographical ancestry: these include the Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid, and Amerindian racial groups. Therefore, you're "race-does-not-exist" argument is ridiculous, at best. And again nigger, racial affiliation is determined on the basis of underlying genetic structure, not craniometry or any other measures of human physical dimensions

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:



This is like posting a picture of Obama out of over 40 presidents and claiming that the United States was founded by black Africans.

Can you relate to us how old Egypt was after 18 dynasties? I mean compare that to the age of the United States. When the United States is as old as Egypt was up until 18 dynasties, how many black or mixed presidents do you suppose it will have had?

You have simply proven nothing. I won't even consider that a nice try.

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^ This has got to be one of the stupidest responses! LOL This is like posting a picture of a white ruler of Germany and saying this is not proof that Germans are white cuz of one picture! LMAO

You cannot escape the FACT that the U.S. is a predominantly white country established by European settlers no more than you can escape that Egypt is an AFRICAN country and its people were indigenous and so BLACK!
 

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Posted by TheAmericanPatriot (Member # 15824) on :
 
Doug, you would not know a peer reviewed study if it ran over you on the street. You never heard of the term pop history until you heard me use it in another thread.
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:



This is like posting a picture of Obama out of over 40 presidents and claiming that the United States was founded by black Africans.

Can you relate to us how old Egypt was after 18 dynasties? I mean compare that to the age of the United States. When the United States is as old as Egypt was up until 18 dynasties, how many black or mixed presidents do you suppose it will have had?

You have simply proven nothing. I won't even consider that a nice try.

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^ This has got to be one of the stupidest responses! LOL This is like posting a picture of a white ruler of Germany and saying this is not proof that Germans are white cuz of one picture! LMAO

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Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Doug, you would not know a peer reviewed study if it ran over you on the street. You never heard of the term pop history until you heard me use it in another thread.

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:



This is like posting a picture of Obama out of over 40 presidents and claiming that the United States was founded by black Africans.

Can you relate to us how old Egypt was after 18 dynasties? I mean compare that to the age of the United States. When the United States is as old as Egypt was up until 18 dynasties, how many black or mixed presidents do you suppose it will have had?

You have simply proven nothing. I won't even consider that a nice try.

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^ This has got to be one of the stupidest responses! LOL This is like posting a picture of a white ruler of Germany and saying this is not proof that Germans are white cuz of one picture! LMAO

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If we had pictures and the mummified remains of black Germans, then the one picture of a white German might cast some shadow of doubt over whether all Germans were white.

Maybe you are the one with the stupidest response?

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Originally posted by Doug M:

[/qb]

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Well Simple Girl it is simple.

Show me the REMAINS of a white king of a civilized nation in the area now called Germany or Britain in 1800 BC or any time period before that. Show me their writing, their sculpture and their high arts. Show me their many kings and queens going back thousands of years.

I will wait patiently. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Oh, I see what you are driving at. The ancient Germans were a black people thingy.

I don't think even they practiced mummification so maybe you're right in that they were black.

Perhaps you would be just as interested in me showing you the mummified remains of the white kings and queens of Egypt? There were many you know?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Simple Girl:

If we had pictures and the mummified remains of black Germans, then the one picture of a white German might cast some shadow of doubt over whether all Germans were white.

Maybe you are the one with the stupidest response?

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Nope it is still YOU! There are no mummified remains of black Germans just as there are NO mummified remains of white Egyptians! So your response is still DUMB!
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
BAhahahahahahahahahahh

hahahaahahahhahahahah

Really where do you see mummified remains of white egyptians?

This has to be up there with Patriot and his "North African Caucasoids". Simple you really need to Change your views girl.

Peace
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
The beginning of the end for White Nerd.

quote:

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Originally posted by dumb White Nerd:

Dunking fallacious Negrocentric claims from Negrocentric web site!

'MODERN SKELETAL STUDIES PLACE EGYTIANS CLOSER TO AFRICAN GROUPS'''

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.


SKEWED RESULTS - the so-called “Negroid body plan” is not Egyptian but mixed Nubian:

“The ancient Egyptians have been described as having a “Negroid” body plan (Robins, 1983). Variations in the proximal to distal segments of each limb were therefore examined. Of the ratios considered, only maximum humerus length to maximum ulna length (XLH/XLU) showed statistically significant change through time. This change was a relative decrease in the length of the humerus as compared with the ulna, suggesting the development of an increasingly African body plan with time. This may also be the result of Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample from Gebelein [/u]…The earliest evidence of Nubians living in Egypt comes during the OK. Throughout the MK, the pharaonic frontier lay on the Second Cataract (in present-day Sudan); during this period, movements northwards from Nubia are especially likely. Together with the known presence of Nubian mercenaries in Gebelein (Fischer, 1961), the MK sample may represent a Nubian rather than Egyptian population. (Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions Sonia R. Zakrzewski 2003)

So here we have the truth at last. The so called “negroid body plan” is not Egyptian after all, but Nubian which is MIXED. Of course it is expected that lumping non-Egyptian Nubians in with Egyptians is going to skew the results. I am not surprised that you would completely edit out this powerful little fact. Notice there is a DIFFERENCE between Nubian and Egyptian and Nubians arrive during the OK, this means they werent presently there before!

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"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)[/b]

None of this Negrocentric **** says it groups them with negroids or even sub-Saharans. Kemp got his info from the study “Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” ( Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986 Human Evolution) in which it explicitly states: “This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south.”

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Whites & Egyptians have mass-reduced teeth while negroids have large teeth:

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Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D2 statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth . These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.” (“Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples” J.D. Irish Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.)

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“ the observation that teeth of American blacks are larger than those of American whites.” (“Tissue contributions to sex and race: Differences in tooth crown size of deciduous molars” Edward F. Harris, Joseph D. Hicks, Betsy D. Barcroft College of Dentistry, University of Tennessee 2001)

“ The largest teeth are found among Australians, followed by Melanesians, Micronesians, sub-Saharan Africans , and Native Americans. Philippine Negritos, Jomon/Ainu, and Western Eurasians have small teeth ,” (“Metric dental variation of major human populations” Tsunehiko Hanihara, Hajime Ishida Department of Anatomy and Biological Anthropology, Saga Medical School)

“Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples were demonstrated to have “simple, mass-reduced teeth” (“Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples” J.D. Irish)

American negroids have large teeth compared to those of American whites.

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There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians , exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas. " (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

This is not surprising that SOUTHERN EGYPTIANS who were mixed NUBIANS have southern affinities. Nor does it lump northern Egyptians in with southern ones. They were careful not to.

Even in comparisons to American Blacks, the ancient Egyptians are found closer to said Blacks that American Whites or Europeans

We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical ... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks. ..brachial indices are definitely more ‘African’... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55

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Originally posted by White Nerd:

“An attempt has been made to estimate male and female Egyptian stature from long bone length using TROTTER & GLESER negro stature formulae, previous work by the authors having shown that these rather than white formulae give more consistent results with male dynastic material. Evidence is presented that the tibia length should include the spine in the later (1958) formulae and should exclude it in the earlier (1952) formulae. It is also shown that better results are obtained if the constants in the stature formulae are modified so as to conform more exactly with the basic data published by TROTTER & GLESER. When consistency has been achieved in this way, predynastic proportions are founded to be such that distal segments of the limbs are even longer in relation to the proximal segments than they are in modern negroes. Such proportions are termed <<super-negroid>>… On the subject of estimating living stature from skeletal remains, BROTHWELL (1981 p. 101) mentions that the equations which the archaeologist is generally advised to use are those of TROTTER & GLESER (1952, 1958) based on the long bone lengths of modern North American subjects; he adds, however, that modern formulae may not be appropriate to earlier populations', and no physical anthropologist is fully content with the statistics so far produced. Where living height cannot be measured directly, it is clear that the credibility of estimates must depend upon criteria such as plausibility and consistency. In the case of Egyptian mummies, for instance, the estimate may be plausible if the deviation from the measured mummy length can be explained in terms of observable deformities such as collapse of the cervical spine, curvature of the thoracic spine, or foot-droop. The estimate is consistent if individual long bones give similar results, and this will depend upon the skeleton ancient times having limb and trunk proportions similar to those of the subjects on which the modern formulae were based. ROBINS (1983) and ROBINS & SHUTE (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained for ancient Egyptian male skeletons if TROTTER & GLESER formulae for negro subjects are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south. It does, however, suggest that their physical proportions were more like those of modern negroes than those of modern whites, with limbs that were relatively long compared with the trunk, and distal limb segments that were long compared with the proximal segments.”(“Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986 Hum Evol 1:313–324. Ruff CB. 1994)

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'''CONTINUITY OF THE NILE VALLEY PEOPLES'''

"Certainly there was some foreign admixture [in Egypt], but basically a homogeneous African population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient to modern times... [the] Badarian people, who developed the earliest Predynastic Egyptian culture, already exhibited the mix of North African and Sub-Saharan physical traits that have typified Egyptians ever since (Hassan 1985; Yurco 1989; Trigger 1978; Keita 1990.. et al.,)... The peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East African Ethiopia and Somalia are now generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types) but with powerful common cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions.." (Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review," 1996 -in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, Black Athena Revisited, 1996, The University of North Carolina Press, p. 62-100)

It doesn’t state who is “foreign” but admits that there was a MIX while labeling it “homogeneous “ LOL. And we know those “variations” are due to Caucasian gene flow that is why they are able to determine “NORTHERN” and southern mtdnas:

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“Previous genetic studies of Egyptian, Nubian, and Sudanese populations allowed for distinguishing between two mtDNA types : the so called “southern” (Sub-Saharan) and “northern” (Eurasian) (for details see: Chen et al. 1995; Krings et al. 1999). To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations.

“As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt…proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.” (“Brief Communication: Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt G. Lucotte* and G. Mercier International Institute of Anthropology)

North African populations are considered genetically closer to Eurasians than to sub-Saharans.” (“Female gene pools of Berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa Human Biology2005”)

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quote:

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Originally posted by White Nerd:

In the same study, although Keita didn’t like to, he did admit gene flow from “various areas, especially southwest Asia.” HENCE:

“The overall results are generally consistent with findings of high African diversity, which in the main can now be considered to be primarily of indigenous African biohistorical origin, without denying some immigration with gene flow from various areas, especially southwest Asia.”… “Some Horn populations assimilated south-west Asians, and even adopted their languages, which likely began as lingua francas. Certain Ethiopian groups evince substantial frequencies of ‘‘Near Eastern’’ genes (Y chro mosome J group lineages), likely due to the assimilation of migrants after the first millennium BC (Munro-Hay, 1991),”

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Keita even has the courage to admit SW Asia is indigenous. lol How can you Afronuts accept this. Also the term “indigenous North Africa” applies to European mtdna:

“We show that the main indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the most ancient cluster of European mtDNAs , from which it diverged »50,000 years ago.” (“The Emerging Tree of West Eurasian mtDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region Sequences and RFLPs” Institute of Molecular Medicine, University of Oxford)

There no Disputing this!

Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.” (“Research on ancient DNA in the Near East” Mateusz Baca, Martyna Molak 2008)

Dahkleh is in SW Egypt! Yet no negroids there until “Roman times.” This firmly suggest that negroids in Egypt are higher NOW than was prior to Roman times. So much for negroids being termed “indigenous North Africans.”

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Again mt lineage U6 is NOT European but African since it's frequency and diversity is confined to Africa and NOT Europe! U6 is different from the other U lineages found in Europe the same way M1 in Africa is different from the other lineages designated 'M' in India!! Both African M1 and U6 share similarities to Eurasian lineages that arose in the paleolithic due to parallel mutations from a common origin and that origin is in Africa!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
all of the most recent research conducted by modern geneticists reveals that the Egyptian gene pool clusters much more closely with other Mediterranean Caucasoids, than with any group of Negroids. Here, let's look at the major studies:

Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) compared populations from throughout the world using extensive genetic data. The North African populations grouped with West Eurasian (European, Middle East) populations rather than sub-Saharan Africans.

Di Rienzo et al. (1994) studied the relationship of three samples (taken from Egyptians, Sardinians, and sub-Saharan Africans), using mitochondrial DNA and simple sequence repeats. In terms of genetic distance, the Egyptian sample was closer to the Sardinian sample than to the sub-Saharan African
sample.

Hammer et al. (1997) used seven different methods to compute population trees of world populations, using Y-chromosome data. All seven methods grouped the Egyptians with the non-African populations rather than with the sub-Saharan Africans. Egyptians' genetic profile resembles that of South Europeans more than the other regional groups in the study.

Poloni et al. (1997). Egyptians and a few other African populations (Tunisians, Algerians, and even Ethiopians) showed a stronger Y-chromosome similarity to non-African Mediterraneans than to the remainder of Africans mostly from south of the Sahara.

Bosch et al. (1997), using classical genetic markers, calculated Egyptians to be genetically very close to Mediterranean Asians and Europeans.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ There is no such thing as "cacasoid" let alone "Mediterranean" as it was explained HERE! Or does your degenerate mind not remember??

Also the Y-chromosomal lineage you speak of that ties 'Mediterreaneans' together is E1b1b which is AFRICAN in origin stupid!! Even East Africans carry it and West Africans carry the sibling lineage E1b1a! LMAO
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Continuing with the demise of White Nerd...

quote:

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'''MODERN CRANIAL AND FORENSIC STUDIES PLACE THE ANCIENTS CLOSER TO OTHER AFRICAN POPULATIONS THAN MIDDLE EASTERNERS AND OTHERS'''


QUOTE(s):
S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54

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"Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)

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Keita is disingenuous, Lachish was a scene of a major battle where Egyptians, Libyans, Nubians, Assyrians fought - so naturally, you’re gooing to find crania of several types HENCE:

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“The archaeological site of Tell-Duweir is located 20 miles south of Jerusalem. Its horizons span the Bronze through Iron ages. The site was excavated and crania recovered between 1933 and 1936 by the Wellcome Marston Archaeological Research Expedition to the Near East (Risdon, 1939) The site is associated with the biblical city of Lachish; Sennacherib sacked and burned Lachish in approximately 700 B.C. (Level IV-I11), and archaeology tends to support this date. Lachish at that time was part of the Judean Kingdom. Shishak, the Libyan pharaoh of the Twenty-second Egyptian Dynasty, attacked and perhaps left a garrison of his men. (1000-900 B.C. Level V) some of Shishak's army, which included Libyans and Nubians, may have settled in the district (Tufnell, 1953). Level IV is to be distinguished from Level I11 because Level IV has northeast African objects. (900-700 B.C. Level IV-I11) Egyptian, Nubian and Assyrian armies clashed in this area during the Judean Kingdom epoch (Gold, 1962; Yurco, 1980). Risdon’s work (1939) concludes that the Lachish series represents Upper Egyptians, who were residents in Lower Egypt during the Eighteenth Dynasty and who immigrated to Lachish during that time (between 1567 and 1320B.C.), remaining endogamous. Keith (1940) stating on morphological grounds that the people of Lachish, in the main, are Europeanoid of the “Mediterranean type,” as opposed to the Egyptians who are African of the “Hamitic type,” except in the delta. [Note: Hamitic is not negroid, refer to: (“Population of Nubia up to the 16th Century BC” Anthropological Review; 62:57-66 Pudlo, 1999)]

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[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by White Nerd:

quote:

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"When the unlikely relationships [Indian matches] and eliminated, the Egyptian series are more similar overall to other African series than to European or Near Eastern (Byzantine or Palestinian) series." (Keita 1993)

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Ku****es, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
(S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

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Because “Southern predynastic Egypt” has less Caucasian admixture as it is further from the main body of Egypt, is it not? Nevermind the present negroid population of Ethiopia is 40% Caucasian - which shows the strong presence of ancient whites in the area to leave behind that large amount to last into present day. The Egyptians expanded their boarders several times along the cataracts each time advancing further into more negroid territory.

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“As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt…proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.” (“Brief Communication: Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt G. Lucotte* and G. Mercier International Institute of Anthropology)

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"It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.). The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt." (Lucotte et al. 2003)

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“The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World.” (“Clines and Clusters Versus “Race:” A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile” C Loring Brace 1993)

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Of course, this is because Southwest Asia and Europe during the Neolithic recieved substantial migration from Northeast Africa but that does mean that there is no tie to Sub-Sahara!

Brace has made that clear in more recent studies of his, see HERE!



^ Neolithic Europeans and Soutwest Asians possess affinities to not only North Africans but Sub-Saharans as well! Why?? Because there is NO division between the populations of North Africa and Sub-Sahara! Black Africans are indigenous to *ALL* of Africa and they migrated from North Africa to Mediterreanean Europe and Southwest Asia during Neolithic times!

SHOULD I CONTINUE WITH THE EUROCENTRIC BEATDOWN OR SHOULD I REST??
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
What I don't understand is that people are still trying to claim Ethiopians as 40% Eurasian when the people who have high Hap J is the Amharas and the Tigre. The Majority of Ethopians(Oromos) have Hap J at 3%.

Anyone with sense would "know" this if they actually read the studies and not just cherry pick from what serves there stupid racist Arguements.

Also People seem to forget(On Purpose) that White skin developed in Europe only 6000 years ago:



Now whitenord explain to us how these people were able to get to africa, and leave there imprint on a Black people. Also explain how the Tutsis and some west Africans have Narrow Features with out any "Kaka aisn" ancestry.

Peace
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes meanwhile, Europeans as a whole have 1/3 black African ancestry! LOL

King, these idiots NEVER listen and for obvious reasons...



I think I'll rest from their beat down after all it's the holidays at least here in the U.S.


 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
So there's no such thing as White people, eh?

How comforting to know that what I've been fighting for all this time hasn't even existed!

I guess I can take it easy now!

Maybe I'll start fucking Blacks and Asians, since, you know, my genetic material isn't even there to preserve any way!

But, wait a second, so, Caucasoids don't even exist? And yet, Negroids obviously exist, especially when it comes to Egypt?

Why is it that your race has a proud history, and is deserving of freedom and preservation, and yet, my race doesn't even seem to exist?

What's up with that?
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ There is no such thing as "cacasoid" let alone "Mediterranean" as it was explained HERE! Or does your degenerate mind not remember??

Also the Y-chromosomal lineage you speak of that ties 'Mediterreaneans' together is E1b1b which is AFRICAN in origin stupid!! Even East Africans carry it and West Africans carry the sibling lineage E1b1a! LMAO

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Can you read, chink? I've already explained over and over again that haplogroup E is further divided into two population-specific subclades, with E1b1a being found almost exclusively in Negroids and E1b1b being found almost exclusively in Caucasoids. According to the research of Hammer et al. (1997), which has been recently confirmed by Chandrasekar et al. (2007), haplogroup E is of Asiatic origin, especially given the fact that its parent clade DE emerged in Asia over 65, 000 years ago.

U6 is a subclade of macrohaplogroup U, whereas M1 is a subclade of macrohaplogroup M, and neither of these subclades are exclusive to Africa. U6 is also found in regions as diverse as the Iberian peninsula, Syria, the Canary Islands, and North Africa; M1 is also found in the Mediterranean and the Middle East and is only present within the Horn of Africa due to Caucasoid intermixture. As established by the research of Rajkumar et al. (2005), an African origin for M is almost impossible, especially given the fact that the highest frequencies of M are observed in Southern Asia, not Africa. And another thing, 'groid, M and U are quite dissimilar in overall structure; M is derived from L3 and U is derived from R, which again broke off from N, although both M and U became gradually differentiated from their parent clades somewhere in Asia. Furthermore, both have very different defining mutations as well.


Phenotype doesn't map onto genotype, which is why actual genetic inter-relatedness between human sub-species can only be determined by examining the combined statistical frequencies of those population-specific haplogroups that characterize the population genotype itself.






These are obviously dark-skinned Mediterranean Caucasoids.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
bump
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:

Can you read, chink? I've already explained over and over again that haplogroup E is further divided into two population-specific subclades, with E1b1a being found almost exclusively in Negroids and E1b1b being found almost exclusively in Caucasoids. According to the research of Hammer et al. (1997), which has been recently confirmed by Chandrasekar et al. (2007), haplogroup E is of Asiatic origin, especially given the fact that its parent clade DE emerged in Asia over 65, 000 years ago.

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U6 is a subclade of macrohaplogroup U, whereas M1 is a subclade of macrohaplogroup M, and neither of these subclades are exclusive to Africa. U6 is also found in regions as diverse as the Iberian peninsula, Syria, the Canary Islands, and North Africa; M1 is also found in the Mediterranean and the Middle East and is only present within the Horn of Africa due to Caucasoid intermixture. As established by the research of Rajkumar et al. (2005), an African origin for M is almost impossible, especially given the fact that the highest frequencies of M are observed in Southern Asia, not Africa. And another thing, 'groid, M and U are quite dissimilar in overall structure; M is derived from L3 and U is derived from R, which again broke off from N, although both M and U became gradually differentiated from their parent clades somewhere in Asia. Furthermore, both have very different defining mutations as well.

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Phenotype doesn't map onto genotype, which is why actual genetic inter-relatedness between human sub-species can only be determined by examining the combined statistical frequencies of those population-specific haplogroups that characterize the population genotype itself.

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These are obviously dark-skinned Mediterranean Caucasoids.

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Yes, and I'm the Queen Victoria! It's obvious you are a lunatic whose insanity knows no bounds!!



You need serious help, Arthur!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:

So there's no such thing as White people, eh?

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quote:

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How comforting to know that what I've been fighting for all this time hasn't even existed!

I guess I can take it easy now!

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quote:

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Maybe I'll start fucking Blacks and Asians, since, you know, my genetic material isn't even there to preserve any way!

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quote:

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But, wait a second, so, Caucasoids don't even exist? And yet, Negroids obviously exist, especially when it comes to Egypt?

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quote:

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Why is it that your race has a proud history, and is deserving of freedom and preservation, and yet, my race doesn't even seem to exist?

What's up with that?

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Again I never claim any 'race'. Dummy!

You see that's how losers like you get any pride-- not in yourself but in some made up 'race'!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Subhuman nigger animal. Ever heard of The Bell Curve?


E1b1b and E1b1a are subclades of E, with E1b1b having only been detected at high frequencies in Caucasoid populations and E1b1a having only been detected at high frequencies in sub-Saharan Negroid populations.


In a study conducted by Weale et al. (2003), only 5 out a of a total of 1247 Nigerian males examined were determined to possess haplogroup DE, but the result was discounted by the investigators as being not genealogically meaningful given its paraphyletic status within the field of cladistic analysis. However, in a study conducted by Shi et al. in 2008, DE was also observed amongst Tibetans. According to the research of Lan Hai (2008), given the fact that D is geographically restricted to Asia, having only been observed exclusively within Asian populations, and that haplogroup E is much younger than D, it is obvious that Asia is the original source of YAP+ DE.


only populations of Caucasoid and mixed Caucasoid-Negroid origin possess high frequencies of both M1 and U6, which is why these two subclades are geographically restricted to North Africa and the racially admixed Horn of Africa. M1 is not found in sub-Saharan Negroid populations, whereas high frequencies of U6 are found only within Caucasoid populations, where it reaches a maximum of 29% in Algerian Berbers. M1 has also been found at high frequencies in other Caucasoid populations, such as those of the Iberian peninsula and the Middle East. And besides, M1 is of Western Asian origin, given the fact that all of the most ancestral sublineages of macrohaplogroup M have only been detected in India, suggesting that the presence of M1 in Africa is due to Caucasoid back-migration from Western Asia. The same can also be said for U6, which is also of Asiatic origin, having split off from R in Western Asia over 55, 000 years ago, and is found in North Africa due to Caucasoid back-migration as well.

You haven't presented a single study which presents any evidence whatsoever that the Egyptians, whether ancient or modern, are Negroids. Why? Because there is virtually no study in existence that even remotely suggests that the Egyptians were Negroids. What little evidence exists, seems to suggest that there was a slight Negroid element in the population of southern Egypt, around the second cataract of the Nile river, just along the Nubian border. But unfortunately for you, the population of both Northern and Southern Egypt has been demonstrated by modern research to be overwhelmingly Mediterranean Caucasoid in origin.
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
BTW Djenuti consider yourself DEBUNKED!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
bump
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
bump
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Djehuti, Djehuti, Djehuti,

Priase the Lord!

Ramses/Rameses??? Isn't that the one pharoah Moses fought to free the Hebrews from Egypt.

This racist "Arthur Kemp" is not acting alone. There is institutional Racism.

I remember seeing the latest MOSES Movie and a Biblical cartoon on the Exodus. Both featured a chalk white ALBINO-ish Rameses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II




Christopher Lee played Ramses without any Yul Brynner type suntan



This what non-academics see!

Below is a 3-D image of Ramses
from MSNBC



Lastly, this is site I ran into a while ago. We must know what is out there....

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesegypt.html
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Here is another interesting site:



My Opinion
by Dr. Joel A. Freeman

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGhistory.htm

Egypt has always been a place of fascination for the ancients outside the region of Egypt. For instance, two of the seven wonders of the World were situated in Egypt.

The Rosetta Stone was discovered during the Napoleonic Egyptian Campaign in 1799. In 1822 Jean Champollion was able to crack the code of hieroglyphics. Once the code of hieroglyphics had been cracked, it brought a renewed interest to that region of the world.

For the first time in thousands of years, utilizing the new-found skills of reading Egyptian hieroglyphics, people could corroborate certain historical events, people and places. The discovery of the Rosetta Stone and subsequent understanding of the esoteric hieroglyph language was the connection that brought everything to the forefront for "modern" people to wrestle with some realities.

European archaeologists, anthropologists and historians were in a catch-22 situation. On one hand they were seeing images of people with clear Afroid features as they traveled around Egypt.

On the other hand, there was the terrible history of the slave trade that had been going on for approximately 350 years prior. For Europeans to justify the economic drive of the slave trade, there had to be the denigration of people of African descent. (Also, let's not forget the complicity of African Kings in bringing their warring neighbors to the slave traders.) Since the slave trade had been going on for some 350 years, the negative view of Black people had permeated much of Europe, South and North America and the rest of the world.

There was a crisis of conscience, especially in the mid 1800s. How are the European archaeologists going to interpret what they are seeing and understanding, to an eager outside world? In my opinion, they blew a wonderful opportunity to share the truth. Instead most went to all sorts of ends to try to present Egyptians as though they were not of African descent. The book, Black Spark, White Fire (Richard Poe) addresses the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in a most ingenious manner.

The one-drop rule worked in the US -- one drop of black blood makes one black. Let's reverse the standards for archaeologists and anthropologists when viewing ancient history -- one drop of white blood makes you white, no matter how curly the hair or thick the lips.

All of this impacted the world -- brought on by a specific event. In my opinion, the re-discovery of the Rosetta Stone was the catalyst that brought about the series of events that ultimately reshaped the thinking of people around the world regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians.

See for yourself. The photos you are about to view in a few moments are not so much "Afro Centric" as they are "Truth Centric". See powerful visual images that reveal much more than words could ever communicate. Here's a quick example:




Mummy-case of
Djedmaatesankh, a musician from the temple of Amun-re at Thebes. Egyptian, Late Period, 850 BC.
CT-scan of Djedmaatesankh
X-ray of Djedmaatesankh showing profile of mummy inside cartonnage coffin.

Read the first chapter and overview of

Return To Glory: The Powerful Stirring of the Black Man

In many sectors there seems to be some controversy about the racial make-up of the Egyptian people, i.e. whether they were White or Black. This is a simplistic approach to a much more complicated set of circumstances since Egypt's strategic location brought people in from the south with Nubian and equatorial African influence and from the northern coast of Africa and the Middle East with Afro-Mediterranean and Semitic influences. The Biblical record places Egypt among the "Black" countries. Melanin dosage tests of mummified remains (controversial due to damage caused by the embalming process) seem to indicate a level of melanocytes consistent with a people of a semi tropical to temperate climate zone.

Egypt continues to dominate the focus of our African oriented studies. These studies have clearly demonstrated that not only were early Egypt's origins African, but that through the whole of Egypt's Dynastic Era (the age of the Pharaohs), and during all of her many periods of national splendor, men and women with black skin complexions, broad noses, full lips, and tightly curled hair, were dominant in both the general population and governing elite.

In the intense and unrelenting struggle to establish scientifically the African foundations of Egyptian civilization, the late Senegalese scholar Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop remains a most fierce and ardent champion. Dr. Diop (1923-1986) was without a doubt one of the world's leading Egyptologist and held the position of Director of the Radiocarbon Laboratory at the Fundamental Institute of Black Africa in Dakar, Senegal. In stating the importance of the work, Diop noted emphatically and early on that, "The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt."

The solid range of methodologies employed by Dr. Diop in the course of his extensive Afro-Egyptian labors included: examinations of the epidermis of the mummies of Egyptian kings for verification of their melanin content; precise osteological measurements and meticulous studies in the various relevant areas of anatomy and physical anthropology; careful examinations and comparisons of modern Upper Egyptian and West African blood-types; detailed Afro-Egyptian linguistic studies and the corroboration of distinct Afro-Egyptian cultural traits; documents of racial designations employed by the early Africans themselves; Biblical testimonies and references that address the ancient Egyptian's ethnicity, race and culture; and the writings of early Greek and Roman travelers and scholars describing the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians.

The original Egyptians were unmixed pure black folks. When they were at the pinnacle of their glory they were not a mixed group by any means. During the middle dynasties especially (and later) when people migrated to this great land there was some intermarrying. This is natural and doesn't need to be debated. It was even done within royalty lines at times to solidify alliances, which was a common practice between powers during that period of history. Chancellor Williams refers to this phenomenon in his book "The Destruction of Black Civilization." And frankly, he theorizes that this mixing was part of the reason for the fall of Black Civilization. Nevertheless, there was never so much of this that at any time the ancient Egyptians could ever be classified as other than a black people.

It's reasonable to say that Egypt was a gateway for the meeting and interchange of goods, ideas, and people; and that the Egyptians were themselves a unique expression of human strength, beauty, intelligence and diversification. Ancient Egypt was an African civilization. It is also interesting to note that the Biblical record states "Israel also came into Egypt...the land of Ham." (Psalm 105: 23).

Plus we need to be reminded that Egypt is in Africa (not the Middle East) and that all of the Pharaohs (up to and including the 25th Dynasty) would have been required to "sit at the back of a bus" in the 1940s in Montgomery Alabama. Let's allow the pictures to speak for themselves...Ready?

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGpix.htm




Man From Old Kingdom


King Amenhemet



King Khaprhen
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by white idiot:

Subhuman nigger animal. Ever heard of The Bell Curve?

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Yes, and despite your ad-hominem racist slurs that study has been DEBUNKED years ago! As you are ALWAYS!

Have you ever read this book?



I don't think so!

quote:

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E1b1b and E1b1a are subclades of E, with E1b1b having only been detected at high frequencies in Caucasoid populations and E1b1a having only been detected at high frequencies in sub-Saharan Negroid populations.

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ROTFLMAO


You idiot! Of course E1b1b and E1b1a are subclades of E!! They are also sibling lineages which diverged from a common ancestor-- E1b1*-- which like all E haplogroups originated in Africa!! The entire E clade originated in Africa! How can one haplogroup be called "caucasoid" while it's sibling is "negroid" and they both originated in Africa??!! Do you even realize that E1b1b occurs most frequently in Africans even Sub-Saharans than in non-Africans??!



^ Notice that the subgroup E-M78 that you associate with "caucasoid" peoples still has its greatest frequency and diversity in Africa where it originated! It's presence in Southwest Asians and Europeans accounts for only one thing-- THESE PEOPLE CARRY AFRICAN ADMIXTURE!! Which is why Europeans are considered 1/3 African!! LOL

quote:

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In a study conducted by Weale et al. (2003), only 5 out a of a total of 1247 Nigerian males examined were determined to possess haplogroup DE, but the result was discounted by the investigators as being not genealogically meaningful given its paraphyletic status within the field of cladistic analysis. However, in a study conducted by Shi et al. in 2008, DE was also observed amongst Tibetans. According to the research of Lan Hai (2008), given the fact that D is geographically restricted to Asia, having only been observed exclusively within Asian populations, and that haplogroup E is much younger than D, it is obvious that Asia is the original source of YAP+ DE.

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LOL Sorry but YAP+ DE in Asians dates back to when their ancestors first left Africa!! The highest frequency of D occurs among Andamanese aboriginals of Southeast Asia!

Andamanese boy


The fact that D occurs among people like the boy above in Asia as well as the fact that E occurs at its highest frequency and diversity in Africa where it originated, coupled with the fact that more DE carriers were found in Nigeria than in Tibet show that Africa is where it originated!!

All of this is supported by recent studies from geneticists!

"....haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval." Underhill (2007)

quote:

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only populations of Caucasoid and mixed Caucasoid-Negroid origin possess high frequencies of both M1 and U6, which is why these two subclades are geographically restricted to North Africa and the racially admixed Horn of Africa. M1 is not found in sub-Saharan Negroid populations, whereas high frequencies of U6 are found only within Caucasoid populations, where it reaches a maximum of 29% in Algerian Berbers. M1 has also been found at high frequencies in other Caucasoid populations, such as those of the Iberian peninsula and the Middle East. And besides, M1 is of Western Asian origin, given the fact that all of the most ancestral sublineages of macrohaplogroup M have only been detected in India, suggesting that the presence of M1 in Africa is due to Caucasoid back-migration from Western Asia. The same can also be said for U6, which is also of Asiatic origin, having split off from R in Western Asia over 55, 000 years ago, and is found in North Africa due to Caucasoid back-migration as well.

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quote:

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You haven't presented a single study which presents any evidence whatsoever that the Egyptians, whether ancient or modern, are Negroids. Why? Because there is virtually no study in existence that even remotely suggests that the Egyptians were Negroids. What little evidence exists, seems to suggest that there was a slight Negroid element in the population of southern Egypt, around the second cataract of the Nile river, just along the Nubian border. But unfortunately for you, the population of both Northern and Southern Egypt has been demonstrated by modern research to be overwhelmingly Mediterranean Caucasoid in origin.

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quote:

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BTW Djenuti consider yourself DEBUNKED!

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NOPE! YOU ARE LMAO
 

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Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
Djehuti,

You have done better than many Afrfican Americans and I have seved many of your posts.

It's time I create my own website

Whatever I do it will be at

Anyone can email me. Ancient Egypt as a great empire is dead. Ironically, it is the Africans in the Americas who are on top. Karma!!!

We must be great in our own time.

I have to get out of here and practice continuosly the languages I hear all around me Spanish, Korean, Chinese etc.

Zai Jian pengyou.






newyorkchango@yahoo.com
 

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Posted by Simple Girl (Member # 16578) on :
 
^Why are you using pictures of Obama? Is that suppose to prove that the beginnings of Egypt were started by Obamanoid-type people? Half white and half black?
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by white idiot:

Subhuman nigger animal. Ever heard of The Bell Curve?

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Yes, and despite your ad-hominem racist slurs that study has been DEBUNKED years ago! As you are ALWAYS!

Have you ever read this book?



I don't think so!

quote:

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E1b1b and E1b1a are subclades of E, with E1b1b having only been detected at high frequencies in Caucasoid populations and E1b1a having only been detected at high frequencies in sub-Saharan Negroid populations.

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ROTFLMAO


You idiot! Of course E1b1b and E1b1a are subclades of E!! They are also sibling lineages which diverged from a common ancestor-- E1b1*-- which like all E haplogroups originated in Africa!! The entire E clade originated in Africa! How can one haplogroup be called "caucasoid" while it's sibling is "negroid" and they both originated in Africa??!! Do you even realize that E1b1b occurs most frequently in Africans even Sub-Saharans than in non-Africans??!



^ Notice that the subgroup E-M78 that you associate with "caucasoid" peoples still has its greatest frequency and diversity in Africa where it originated! It's presence in Southwest Asians and Europeans accounts for only one thing-- THESE PEOPLE CARRY AFRICAN ADMIXTURE!! Which is why Europeans are considered 1/3 African!! LOL

quote:

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In a study conducted by Weale et al. (2003), only 5 out a of a total of 1247 Nigerian males examined were determined to possess haplogroup DE, but the result was discounted by the investigators as being not genealogically meaningful given its paraphyletic status within the field of cladistic analysis. However, in a study conducted by Shi et al. in 2008, DE was also observed amongst Tibetans. According to the research of Lan Hai (2008), given the fact that D is geographically restricted to Asia, having only been observed exclusively within Asian populations, and that haplogroup E is much younger than D, it is obvious that Asia is the original source of YAP+ DE.

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LOL Sorry but YAP+ DE in Asians dates back to when their ancestors first left Africa!! The highest frequency of D occurs among Andamanese aboriginals of Southeast Asia!

Andamanese boy


The fact that D occurs among people like the boy above in Asia as well as the fact that E occurs at its highest frequency and diversity in Africa where it originated, coupled with the fact that more DE carriers were found in Nigeria than in Tibet show that Africa is where it originated!!

All of this is supported by recent studies from geneticists!

"....haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval." Underhill (2007)

quote:

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only populations of Caucasoid and mixed Caucasoid-Negroid origin possess high frequencies of both M1 and U6, which is why these two subclades are geographically restricted to North Africa and the racially admixed Horn of Africa. M1 is not found in sub-Saharan Negroid populations, whereas high frequencies of U6 are found only within Caucasoid populations, where it reaches a maximum of 29% in Algerian Berbers. M1 has also been found at high frequencies in other Caucasoid populations, such as those of the Iberian peninsula and the Middle East. And besides, M1 is of Western Asian origin, given the fact that all of the most ancestral sublineages of macrohaplogroup M have only been detected in India, suggesting that the presence of M1 in Africa is due to Caucasoid back-migration from Western Asia. The same can also be said for U6, which is also of Asiatic origin, having split off from R in Western Asia over 55, 000 years ago, and is found in North Africa due to Caucasoid back-migration as well.

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Wrong again! M1 is most frequently found in Sub-Saharan East Africa, specifically the Horn of Africa-- from which the ancestors of Eurasians originated who carried M*. U6 is most frequently found in North Africa but any presence of it outside of Africa is negligible and definitely not diverse! The fact that it bears a resemblence to Eurasian lineages designated 'U' means the same thing-- EURASIANS DESCEND FROM A SUBSET OF AFRICANS!

quote:

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You haven't presented a single study which presents any evidence whatsoever that the Egyptians, whether ancient or modern, are Negroids. Why? Because there is virtually no study in existence that even remotely suggests that the Egyptians were Negroids. What little evidence exists, seems to suggest that there was a slight Negroid element in the population of southern Egypt, around the second cataract of the Nile river, just along the Nubian border. But unfortunately for you, the population of both Northern and Southern Egypt has been demonstrated by modern research to be overwhelmingly Mediterranean Caucasoid in origin.

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On the contrary I have LOADS of evidence that the ancient Egyptians as indigenous Africans were black and tropically adapted like all other indigenous Africans like Sub-Saharans!

Here is just a SAMPLE!

German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens:
"The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
(Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)

"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)

^ Gee, they had black skin, tropically adapted body plans, and African cranial traits! What can all of this mean other than the obvious! LOL

BTW there's more evidence on the first page of this thread! Obviously your moronic mind must have missed it.

quote:

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BTW Djenuti consider yourself DEBUNKED!

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NOPE! YOU ARE LMAO

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You are stupid, you nigger. The fact that E1b1b is specific only to the Caucasoid populations of North Africa and that E1b1a is only specific to the Negroid populations of sub-Saharan Africa demonstrates that Caucasoids exhibit a much higher level of genetic inter-relatedness amongst the various Mediterranean Caucasoid subpopulations of which it is comprised, than amongst Negroids. In other words, the high frequencies of E1b1b found amongst Mediterranean Caucasoids and the high frequencies of E1b1a found amongst sub-Saharan Negroids, as well as the fact that E1b1b is geographically restricted to North Africa and that E1b1a is geographically restricted to sub-Saharan Africa, clearly demonstrates that both North African Caucasoids and sub-Saharan Negroids are highly genetically differentiated from each other, which has ultimately produced a wide divergence between Caucasoid and Negroid phenotypes.

Secondly, according to the latest research of Chandrasekar et al. (2007) and the 2008 study of Lan Hai, haplogroup E is clearly of Asian, and not African origin. And finally, E1b1b is largely found amongst North African Caucasoids and the racially admixed populations of the Horn of Africa; the two subclades that represent the largest subpopulations of E1b1b are E1b1b1a and E1b1b1b. According to Cruciani et al. (2007), E1b1b1a is geographically restricted to north/northeastern Africa, Western Asia and Europe; E1b1b1b is largely geographically restricted to Mediterranean Europe and North Africa, where it reaches its highest frequencies amongst the Caucasoid Saharawish of the Maghreb. Bosch et al. (2001) report that 76% of all Y-DNA lineages within the Saharawish gene pool are represented by the E-M78 subclade. In contrast, the Negroid-specific E1b1a subclade is rarely observed amongst North African populations, but heavily concentrated amongst Negroids, meaning that both sub-Saharan Negroids and North African Caucasoids are genetically distinct populations. According to Luis et al. (2004):


The diverse NRY haplotypes observed in Egypt and Oman are, to a large extent, distinctive from those of sub-Saharan collections and establish a substantial base for comparisons with other regional populations. NRY markers typical of the current sub-Saharan Africa (E3a*-M2 and derivatives) [E1b1a] are represented by low frequencies in Egypt and Oman and, thus, may be a recent acquisition, at least in part, from the slave trade.


E1b1b1a (E-M78) is found only amongst the Caucasoids of North Africa, Western Asia, and Europe, as well as amongst the Caucasoid-Negroid populations of the Horn of Africa. It is geographically restricted to the Caucasoid populations of North and Northeastern Africa, and is not found in any of the Negroid populations of sub-Saharan Africa.


keep forgetting that Haplogroup E consists of two population-specific subclades, E1b1a which is found in Negroids, and E1b1b which is found in Caucasoids. Secondly, E (M40, M96) is much younger than the Mongoloid-specific D lineage (M174), with DE (YAP+) and M174 branching off from M168 chromosomes in Western Asia, with the E lineage having separated from YAP+ minus the M174 mutation during human reverse-migration from Asia to the Mediterranean basin. Underhill et al. (2007) admit that they have no substantial proof for an African origin of DE, besides mere speculation. However, according to the research of Chandrasekar et al. (2007), all of the available genetic evidence corroborates an Asian origin for YAP+, M174, and the E lineage with defining mutations M40 and M96. According to Chandrasekar et al. (2007):


All Y chromosomes that are not exclusively African have M168 mutation. The M168 lineage evolved into three distinct sub-clusters: One with the Alu insertion, YAP (DE haplogroup) and the other two lineages, C (RPS4Y/M216) and F* (M89/M213). Underhill et al. (2001) suggested that an African population with M168 mutation dispersed from the Horn of Africa via a coastal or interior route about 50 000–45 000 years ago (Walter et al. 2000) towards southern Asia, where the C lineage (RPS4Y/M216 mutations) probably originated. The YAP insertion probably occurred on an Asian Y chromosome as long ago as ~55 000 years (Hammer et al. 1998) based on the evidence of ancestral alleles for M40 and M96 on exclusively Asian M174 chromosomes (Altheide and Hammer 1997). The ancestral allele of M174 found exclusively in Africa, supports an African origin of YAP insertion (Underhill 2001) but the time of mutational events on the Asian YAP insertion chromosome (Hammer et al. 1998) gives antiquity to M174. Our findings of the presence of the YAP insertion in northeast Indian tribes and Andaman islanders with haplogroup D indicate that some of the M168 chromosomes have given rise to the YAP insertion and M174 mutation in south Asia. The presence of C*, YAP insertion and F* in India (Kivisild et al. 2003; Cordaux et al. 2004; Sengupta et al. 2006; Thangaraj et al. 2003) suggests that the Y chromosome is well differentiated into major lineages in south Asia. Then they moved towards southeast Asia and the Andaman Islands. Andamanese maternal links have been established through mtDNA M31 lineage with the eastern part of India in the Rajbansi of West Bengal (Palanichamy et al. 2006) and the Pauri Bhuiya of Orissa (our unpublished data). After reaching the southern part of East Asia descendants of the initial dispersal, led to a northward diaspora thus peopling across all of East Asia (Su et al. 1999). Some of the YAP insertion chromosomes without the M174 mutation reached the Mediterranean via Central Asia and gave rise to the E lineage with mutations at M40 and M96 (~31 000 years ago; Hammer et al. 1998). This E lineage back-migrated to Africa through the Levant as hypothesized by Hammer et al. (1997) and Altheide and Hammer (1997). It is also evident that haplotype E-M34 chromosomes were probably introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East (Cruciani et al. 2004). The hypothesis of a back migration from Asia to Africa is strongly supported by the current phylogeography of the Y-chromosome variation, because haplogroup K2 and paragroup R1b*, both belonging to the otherwise Asiatic macro haplogroup K, have only been observed at high frequencies in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002; Luis et al. 2004). Thus the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin. Likewise the M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. In the light of recent findings by Olivieri et al. (2006) the scenario of a back migration into Africa is supported by two features of mtDNA: M1 (with an estimated coalescence time of 38.6+/-7.1 ky) and U6 (with an estimated coalescence time of 45.1+/-6.9 ky), which are predominantly north African clades arose in southwestern Asia and differentiated into their major sub-clades while they were in the Mediterranean area and only later some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8+/-4.9 ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0+/-7.3 ky) and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6+/-7.3 ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant. Thus modern humans used a southern coastal route for their 'Out of Africa' exit, and the Levantine route from Asia to Africa for 'back migration'.


have already explained numerous times before, both M1 and U6 are largely geographically restricted to the Mediterranean Caucasoids of both North Africa and Europe, and to a lesser extent are found amongst the racially admixed populations residing within the Horn of Africa. As has been established by the research of Gonzalez et al. (2007), both M1 and U6 are of Western Asiatic origin:


The coalescence age of the African haplogroup M1 is younger than those for other M Asiatic clades. In contradiction to the hypothesis of an eastern Africa origin for modern human expansions out of Africa, the most ancestral M1 lineages have been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East, instead of in East Africa. The M1 geographic distribution and the relative ages of its different subclades clearly correlate with those of haplogroup U6, for which an Eurasian ancestor has been demonstrated. ...


virtually no evidence which indicates that the Ancient Egyptians were ever nigger savages.


German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens:


You're an idiot. Several specimens of mummified soft tissue (2 or 3 samples, perhaps?) are not equivalent to the many hundreds of thousands of mummies that lie buried underneath Egyptian soil.


Zakrzewski (2003) borrows the super-Negroid body plan terminology from the research of Robins (1983) and Robins and Shute (1986). According to Robins and Shute (1986), the Egyptians were of Caucasoid race; they also asserted that having a "super-Negroid" or tropical body plan does not a Negro make:


ROBINS (1983) and ROBINS & SHUTE (1983) have shown that more consistent results are obtained for ancient Egyptian male skeletons if TROTTER & GLESER formulae for negro subjects are used, rather than those for whites which have always been applied in the past. This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south.


"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)

The only Africans employed in this study so as to demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians possessed a strong southern affinity with other Africans are the Nubians, the Harratins of southern Morocco, and the negrified Berbers of Ahaggar in southern Algeria, all Northern African populations characterized by substantial Caucasoid admixture.


One recent study conducted by Luis et al. (2004) clearly demonstrates that Egyptians are much more genetically similar to other North Africans and Western Asians, than to sub-Saharan Negroids.

Another Nigger lover chink debunked.....
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Sorry but you haven't debunked a thing in my post, and it's obvious by your racist slurring that you are frustrated by it!

How is E1b1b "caucasoid" yet its brother E1b1a is "negroid"?? E1b1b by the way still occurs in higher frequencies in Africa and not just North Africa but Sub-Saharan east Africa as well!

First and foremost, why don't you define what "caucasoid" and "negroid" are??!

If these racial terms are truly valid you would be able to give a concise definition for each one..
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Just as I thought. Kemp is unable to define his racial classifications because he knows they are bogus and therefore his stupid white-ass is DUBUNKED!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 

quote:

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^ Sorry but you haven't debunked a thing in my post, and it's obvious by your racist slurring that you are frustrated by it!

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quote:

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How is E1b1b "caucasoid" yet its brother E1b1a is "negroid"?? E1b1b by the way still occurs in higher frequencies in Africa and not just North Africa but Sub-Saharan east Africa as well!

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quote:

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If these racial terms are truly valid you would be able to give a concise definition for each one..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Just as I thought. Kemp is unable to define his racial classifications because he knows they are bogus and therefore his stupid white-ass is DUBUNKED!

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Oops, I forgot... There really were ancient Negroid Egyptians from outer space who used there special tricknology to build the pyramids. Here's an artifact from one of the most recent archeological finds confirming the existence of these Ancient Negroids.


"We beez jipshuns frum outa space."
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kemp:

Are you stupid or what, nigger? After completely demolishing every single one of your objections and providing a large body of evidence to the contrary, you still want to live in your delusional "we beez jipshuns" fantasy world?

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quote:

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You are dumb, nigger. I suggest you go back to sucking your nigger mammy's flabby teats.

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I'm not even black, but even if I was, as if anything written from a mentally degenerate low-intellect white bastard can insult me!!

quote:

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Because E1b1b reaches its highest frequencies within Caucasoid populations and is geographically restricted to North Africa and the Mediterranean basin, whereas E1b1a is only found in Negroids and is geographically restricted to sub-Saharan Africa.

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Wrong again, MORON! E1b1b has its highest frequency as well as diversity within Africa, where it originated!!



^ Notice the frequency of E-M78 alone! And notice how the darkest spots are concentrated in Sudan and in the Horn! Sorry but the only reason it has any frequency in non-blacks including Europeans is because they have black African ancestry!!

quote:

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E1b1b is only very rarely found in east Africa, and that is only because of Caucasoid admixture. Think Arab Muslims and their harems of Negro female slaves.

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ROTFLH


You dumb lying swine! E1b1b has its highest frequency in East Africa!! It's presence there predates any "Arabs" by tens of thousands of years! The only one spreading silly fantasies is YOU with that rubbish of Arab men and harems of black women being the ancestors of East Africans!!

quote:

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Genetically distinct populations characterized by differential statistical variations in terms of relative gene frequencies.

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I take it that is your definition of 'race'. So what race would these people be below??



By the way, I asked for a concise definition of "caucasoid" and "negroid". Not surprised your dumbass can't comprehend!

quote:

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Oops, I forgot... There really were ancient Negroid Egyptians from outer space who used there special tricknology to build the pyramids. Here's an artifact from one of the most recent archeological finds confirming the existence of these Ancient Negroids.

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quote:

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"We beez jipshuns frum outa space."

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And this be King Tut, WAP!!


^ Wow, he's even darker then the image of the black man you imposed!

And here is Tut's grandmother and grandfather



^ BTW, your PATHETIC LIE that they are "very dark mediterranean caucasoids" will only be bought by white morons even dumber than you!! LOL
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
Djenuti you stupid chink the Egyptians said they came from the land of punt which is in modern day Turkey!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ You calling me stupid is like the dove calling the raven white! LOL

As for Punt being in Turkey, does this look like Turkey to you??!

The village of the Puntites was made up of simple, cone-shaped huts. It was built in the middle of a very rich (tropical) environment. From the temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari.

Do these look like ancient Anatolians to you??



Queen of Punt


Does this sound like Anatoila??

The products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, pygmies, baboons, myrrh, ... excluding south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere along the African shores of the Red Sea, perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia.

A relief from the 4th Dynasty may show a Puntite with one of Khufu's sons. In the Palermo Stone from the 5th Dynasty, King Sahure (2491-2477), gives the earliest recorded contact between Egypt and Punt. A 5th dynasty document says that kings of each period sent ships to Punt for myrrh and other items. A pygmy was brought from Punt during Djedkare's time (5th Dynasty, 2414-2375). Pepi II (2278-2184) in the 6th Dynasty sent Harkhuf to Punt, and he brought back pygmies. During Pepi II, Pepinakht led an expedition to punish some Asiatics who had murdered Egyptians building a ship meant for Punt.

There were two kinds of dwarfs known in ancient Egypt, the African pygmies and the Egyptian dwarfs. The African pygmies had hereditary dwarfism. These pygmies originated in the equatorial forests of Central Africa. The Ancient Egyptians brought them to Egypt from their trade stations in Nubia. The first pygmy was brought from Punt in the time of King Asosi of the Fifth Dynasty. Another was brought by Herkhuf from the land of Iam in Upper Nubia for the child King Pepi the Second.

The role of the African pygmies was to perform a dance called "the dance for god" or to dance in the royal palace to rejoice the king's heart.

LOL You are one desperate WAP!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 
I looked it up the land of Punt was in Arabia which was originally inhabited by whites. The brown skin is symboic here is evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ysDW5lX2w&feature=related
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Sorry but Youtube does not count for evidence, there's no such thing as ancient white Arabs, and Punt was NOT located there!

Arabia does not have giraffes, rhinos, monkeys, ebony, ivory, gold, and myrrh altogether! East Africa has that! They definitely did not have pygmies either you idiot!!

LOL It's a wonder how they allowed a twit like you to publish any books!
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Djehuti

Wow.

Thats all I can say.

Punt first in Turkey, then Arabia?

The racist just seem to come up with anything.

Now the color of Puntites was symbolic?

One thing that has to be repeated is that E1b1b is found in the Africans in Kenya and Tanzania and is Not any different then it's brother lineage:

In contrast, the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined almost exclusively to the sub-Saharan populations, except for a very low incidence in Egypt (2.7%) and a somewhat larger frequency in Ethiopia (7%, as reported by Underhill et al. [2000]). The highest levels of E3b*-M35 are in Tanzania (37.2%), Kenya (13.8%), and the Khoisans (11% in !Kung and 31% in Khwe).

The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations
J. R. Luis,1,2,D. J. Rowold,1, M. Regueiro,2 B. Caeiro,2 C. Cinnioğlu,3 C. Roseman,3 P. A. Underhill,3 L. L. Cavalli-Sforza,3 and R. J. Herrera1

Keep on Schooling

Peace
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Of course E1b1b is at its highest frequency in Africa and not outside of it. Whatever presence of E1b1b outside of the African continent is only because of African admixture!

As far as schooling, it seems some people are just too damn stupid for school!
 

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Posted by Kemp (Member # 16733) on :
 

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LMAO YOU are the dumb one, and a liar at that! You have not demolished a single thread of evidence I provided and the only "large body" you provided is B.S.!

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I'm not even black, but even if I was, as if anything written from a mentally degenerate low-intellect white bastard can insult me!!

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Will you stop chimping out, you small-brained 'groid primate. After all, this isn't a Kentucky Fried Chicken joint. If anything, you should be thankful that my people have provided an advanced technological civilization that allows you to gorge on your fried chicken and watermelon in peace.

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Wrong again, MORON! E1b1b has its highest frequency as well as diversity within Africa, where it originated!!


^ Notice the frequency of E-M78 alone! And notice how the darkest spots are concentrated in Sudan and in the Horn! Sorry but the only reason it has any frequency in non-blacks including Europeans is because they have black African ancestry!!

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So what race would these people be below??

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You dumb lying swine! E1b1b has its highest frequency in East Africa!! It's presence there predates any "Arabs" by tens of thousands of years! The only one spreading silly fantasies is YOU with that rubbish of Arab men and harems of black women being the ancestors of East Africans!!

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By the way, I asked for a concise definition of "caucasoid" and "negroid". Not surprised your dumbass can't comprehend!

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Why come from outerspace when they're right there in Africa! That IS where Egypt is, dummy!!

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