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Author Topic: Negroid Egyptians 19th century racism
markellion
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19th century racists said that the ancient Egyptians were Negroids (whatever that means). I've posted all this before but my question is if the ancient Egyptians were not dark skinned and looked nothing like other Africans why would people who would otherwise be biased toward making Egypt white want to label them as "Negroids". Were colonialists of this era simply confused when they labeled Egypt as "Negroid".

Seriously think about this. A hundred years ago they were "Negroid" but in the present where racism is supposed to be behind us Egyptians are portrayed as being totally removed from their neighbors

Bellow few quotes are from a colonial writer on Uganda in 1904 the early 20th century!

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA474#
quote:
In one or other way arose the Hamite,* that negroid race which was the main stock of the ancient Egyptian, and is represented at the present day by the Somali, the Gala, and some of the blood of Abyssinia and of Nubia, and perhaps by the peoples of the Sahara Desert....

Then developed the high-cheek-boned, tall, thin-legged Negro of the Sudan, and the blubber-lipped, coarse-featured, black-skinned Negro of the West African coast-lands and later the Bantu type, which is little else than the West African Negro tinged in varying degrees with the results of Hamitic intermixture (the Hamites being either a half-way stage in the evolution of a white man * from the Negro, or an invasion from Asia of a Caucasian people which ages ago mixed considerably with Negroes till it had acquired very marked negroid characteristics

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA485

quote:
The fifth and last amongst these main stocks is the Hamitic, which is negroid rather than Negro. This is the division of African peoples to which the modern Somali and Gala belong, and of which the basis of the population of ancient Egypt consisted. These Hamites are represented by the remarkable Bahima aristocracy of the western portions of the Uganda Protectorate, and possibly by certain tribes at the north end and on the east coast of Lake Rudolf. Of course the Bahima of Western Uganda have mingled to some extent with the Negro races amongst whom they dwell, and the descendants of these unions have influenced the modern type with Negro characteristics that are slightly more marked than is the case amongst the Somali or the ancient Egyptians. The head-hair of the Bahima is often quite woolly, though it may grow longer than it would in purely Negro races. Yet there are individuals among the Bahima who, woolly hair notwithstanding, are nearer to the Egyptian type in their facial features and in the paleness of their skins than is the case even amongst Gala and Somali.
More on Bahima

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA616-IA1#PPA616

quote:
I could quite imagine that the superior and less Negro-like features often met with among the Zulu Kaffirs and the Bantu tribes of the Central Zambezi may be explained by these tribes having migrated not very many centuries ago from some locality in East Central Africa, where their ancestors had received an infiltration of Hima blood....

The present writer has seen individuals whom he mistook entirely for natives of Egypt, thinking them to have been stranded in Unyoro in connection with Emin Pasha's service. Others, again, he took for Arab traders from the coast. An Unyoro princess, who was a relation of Kasagama, king of Toro, was certainly no darker in the colour of her skin than an Egyptian peasant woman.

The one feature in which the Bahima resemble Negroes rather than the Caucasian race, the one irrefragable proof that they have at one time mingled considerably with the black race, is the character of the hair on the head and body. This hair is nearly as woolly as in the ordinary Negro, and has also the same appearance

The bellow from another book "The Oriental and Biblical Journal"

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9AOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA213
quote:

Now, the Negroid race has never displayed much plasticity of intelligence, and has only produced a civilized nation in its extreme northeastern branch, where it spreads over the rich alluvial valley of the Nile, and borders most closely upon the Semitic and Aryan races. Somewhat similar Is the position of the great Mongoloid family, which has developed a civilization in China alone, among the fertile plains of the Hoang-Ho and Yang- tse-Kiang. Both these races seem to represent an early checked development. Each race is what It is, partly in virtue of the peculiar brain and the correlated individuality handed down to it by descent from its remotest human ancestors....

http://books.google.com/books?id=o9AOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA214

quote:
"Strata of alabaster abound in Assyria." This geological fact gives us the one remaining point necessary to the comprehension of Ninevite work. Starting thus from the same primitive basis as the Egyptians—the incised bas-relief painting—it is easy to see how the nature of their material, combined with the greater freedom of their intellects, led them soon to higher nights.

The features display a Negroid type, which, perhaps, points back to Egyptian models, and the treatment is far more angular than in later works


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markellion
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Another example of Negroid vs. Negro

"Africa" By Ethlyn T. Clough 1911

http://books.google.com/books?id=E5wXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA209

quote:
In Southern Africa the true negro is not found, and from the Equator to the Cape the continent is mainly populated by the various negroid branches of the great Bantu-speaking stock. The Bantu hordes, emigrating at various periods from the north of the Zambesi, possessed themselves of all the richer lands that were occupied by the aboriginal Hottentots and Bushmen. The Bantus are distinguished for their fine physique, notably in the case of the Zulus. Many of them are handsome, even from the European standpoint, with aqueline features and sometimes a complexion not darker than that of Southern Europeans. They -are a pastoral and agricultural people, breeding cattle in immense quantities, and cultivating cerials, principally mealies (maize) and Kaffir corn (millet). The Bantus are capable of a considerable degree of civilization, and their mental and moral qualities are higher than those of any negro race

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osirion
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Indeed, the ever decreasing size of the Negro race. Its getting to the point that there isn't a Black race at all. But then there was never a Black race since Black is a socio-political term and race itself cannot be scientifically define clearly.

The term Negro and Negroid will some day have a fitting demise. And we will be known for what we really are - African - and such a term will not be a slight but something of dignity.

--------------------
Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be.

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Sundjata
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Excellent example of the bi-polar and goal post moving tendencies inherent in Eurocentric discourse.

--------------------
mr.writer.asa@gmail.com

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Djehuti
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^ Of course to all rational and logical thinking people it's all confusing. That's because there is nothing rational about it! 'Negroid' or 'Negro' was nothing more than a word game played by racist Eurocentrics to degrade indigenous Africans. They wanted Africans to be inferior, but evidence of complex cultures and civilizations in the continent was an outstanding obstacle. So what to do other than attribute these advanced cultures to Hamites (black caucasians) or 'negro-like' peoples but not 'true negroes'?!! LMAO [Big Grin]

It's called DOUBLE-SPEAK my friend, and history as we know it to be written by so-called 'Western' whites in the last several centuries is literally full of it! (pun intended)

Rasol displayed this perfectly...

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:

NATUFIAN AND DOUBLESPEAK:

The 1st piece was originally posted by Calypso.

It's one of the most interesting articles cited on ES.


quote:
Originally posted by Calypso:
BONES OF CANNIBALS A PALESTINE RIDDLE
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
New York Times 1857; Aug 4, 1932; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2003)
pg. 21


Negroid people of 5000 B. C.
ATE BODIES OF ENEMIES
Men, Short of Stature, Burned Bones of Dead After Burial, London Session Hears.
TEETH OF WOMEN DRAWN
Linking relics to Burnt Skeletons from Ur scientist speculate an old cremation custom.

Seven or eight thousand years ago in what geologist call modern times a race of negroid cannibals lived In Palestine, burned the bones of their dead after burial, and devoured the bodies of their enemies.
Skulls and thighbones of this race were unearthed within the last four years, first at Shukbah near Jerusalem and later in caves at Mount Carmel, and because they puzzled the excavators who found them they received the new name “Natufians.”

Today the first authoritative account of them was given by Sir Arthur Keith to the congress of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Sciences and showed them to be one of the greatest riddles of archaeology.

They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat- noses and long large heads.


They were short of stature 5 feet 3 or 4 inches tall-and their thighs and legs were remarkably strong.

While their arms and shoulders were weak.

Alone Among prehistoric peoples they had a custom of extracting the two upper central incisor teeth of their women.

Jagged holes in the fronts of their skulls indicate that they ate human brains.


They may have been ancestors or the Arabs or Semites of biblical times, in Sir Arthur's opinion.

They had some facial characteristics like those of the Neolithic or late Stone Age men of Malta and the remoter Aurignacian men of Southern Europe.


Natufian remains, it should be remembered, are in no way connected with the more recent discoveries of a new race of fossil men, also in caves, near Mt Carmel. The fossil men, so remarkably different from all others yet found, became extinct in the remotely distant past, while the Natufians may still have been living when the first city-states of Sumeria arose.


Sir Arthur based his conclusions today on twenty comparatively complete skulls of eighty-seven found by Miss Garrod.

Cites Features of Race

“Several features stand out quite definitely'' he asserted; first the Natufians were a long-headed people - they had cap-shaped occiputs (the lower back part of the head).

Secondly, the dimensions or their heads were greater than in the pre-dynastic Egyptians.

Thirdly, their faces were short and wide. Fourthly, they were prognathous (with projecting jaws). Fifthly, their nasal bones were not narrow and high, but formed a wide, low arch.


Sixthly, their chins were not prominent, but were masked by the fullness of the teeth-bearing parts of the jaw.


“The Natufians at Shukbah seem to have practiced cannibalism, for it is only by making this supposition that one can explain the cutting and fracturing of bones. The characters of the cuts and the broken surfaces show the bones were still in a fresh state when the damage was done. I believe the Shukbah people ate human brains.”


The cannibalism theory was strongly disputed by Professor Elliott smith, eminent geologist, who said he was entirely skeptical of it.

Also Professor Smith said it was not uncommon in Egypt to find burned bones in graves.


Professor Smith objected, too, that it was hardly possible that these people had had Negro blood, but Sir Arthur speedily corrected him. By the word Negroid he meant merely Negro-like characteristics such as are found throughout Europe and even in Scandinavia. Sir Arthur drew the inference that the Natufians had carried Aurignacian culture into Palestine after the last glacier age, which was approximately 35000 years ago.



translating the doublespeak: "Look they are negroes, but it's ok, they are cannibal savages.... but, what are they doing in palestine [the holy land of white people!], oh, well, then surely they can't have *negro* blood, regardless of what they look like! Oh, well, I guess that explains it." [Smile]


Now over 100 years later, also from the New York times:

quote:
Invention of Agriculture

By WILLIAM K. STEVENS
Published: April 2, 1991


SMALL step for a man, a giant leap for mankind: that's the phrase grandly applied to the first moon landing. But it suits even better an event whose outlines are emerging ever more clearly from the mists of prehistory: the discovery that wild grasses could be deliberately planted, cultivated and harvested as cereals.
The earliest archeological sites with evidence of domesticated grain lie in the southern Levant, at the north end of the Dead Sea, and date to about 10,000 years ago.

Why was this time and place the site for one of the most revolutionary events -- along with the first use of fire -- in human prehistory?

According to Dr. Frank Hole and Joy McCorriston, both of Yale University, the planting of grasses as food crops began as a response to two grave challenges that often intervene in human history: climatic change and overexploitation of natural resources.

Their study focused on people belonging to the Natufian culture, named after an archeological site in the Judean hills known as Wadi-al-Natuf. The Natufians just preceded the time span at which domesticated plants begin to appear in the archeological record, and the Yale archeologists believe they were the probable inventors of agriculture in the Near East.

Unlike previous humans, nomads who gathered only intermittently in fixed settlements, Natufians gradually adopted the settled life as a permanent one.

^

doublespeak translated: "All hail the great Natufians!

No longer savage cannibals, and thus....no longer Negro.

But please, don't ask us what they looked like.

Please don't ask us where their forebearers came from.

Please don't ask us where their descendants spread to.

Please don't actually think about what this means for WS.T history.

Doublespeak. [Smile]


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Djehuti
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^ I hope E3bc, SirWilliam, and Dirk are paying attention to this thread as a reminder of what the hell they mean by "negro" "negroid" "negrid" etc. etc.! [Big Grin]
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ausar
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markellion, many 19th century writers called modern Egyptians mullatoes. I believe that Finders Petrie reffered to them as a ''course mullato stock''.
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lamin
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The reason why there has been a palpable change in the discussion re the AEs post WWII is that Africans started to join the discussion.

That was when the European researchers started speaking in tongues--so as to "confuse the natives".

In other words the European researchers spoke candidly about their perceptions of Africa and its history when they were the only ones carrying on the dialogue, but as soon as the "natives" began to listen the change of vocabulary and definitions began. This period also witnessed the beginning of a new nomenclature that was quickly standardised. Hence, North Africa became "caucasoid" and a part of the so-called "Middle East". For euphemistic reasons "Negro Africa" and "black Africa" were replaced by "sub-Saharan Africa"--again to confuse the natives. Let's face it: sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword.

Then the media sprang into action with a plethora of films about Ancient Egypt where European actors and castes brazenly cast themselves as authentic representatives of the AEs.

For the Euro mind the "real Africa" was portrayed in films like Mogambo, King Solomon's Mines, etc.

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Djehuti
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^ But what the Eurocentrics apparently don't realize is that their entire discourse from before to after the 'natives' joined in was already confusing due to their self-contradictory DOUBLE-SPEAK as this thread shows!
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argyle104
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Djehuti wrote:
-------------------------
-------------------------


Right on cue the closet racist liberal appears thinking he is a shepard to what he believes are his lowly negroes.


Shut up and go away foreigner.

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markellion
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ But what the Eurocentrics apparently don't realize is that their entire discourse from before to after the 'natives' joined in was already confusing due to their self-contradictory DOUBLE-SPEAK as this thread shows!

Some of it is so ironic it would be funny if it wasn't so malevolent

A century ago it was the dark skinned Egyptians that were labeled as Arabs. At least some authors labeled them as such anyway. In post colonial times lighter skin is being associated with Arabs and as oppressors of darker skinned Egyptians. I'm sure opinions and feelings are different in various places in Egypt.

In the first part modern times Arabs are evil light skeined people who want to oppress black people. Notice in the 2nd part of the bellow they seemed to associate Moor with lighter skinned city dwellers and Arab with dark skinned rural folk. Arabs could go back and forth from being an inferior race to being just bellow the European (But always higher than Negroes). When people spoke positively about Arabs they would probably associate Arab with fair skin and apply the label to random fair skinned people

I'm not claiming anyone is or isn't an Arab its that I think it is important to become cynical about the use of the word Arab. If the definition of an Arab is anyone who speaks Arabic then its important to not let people use the word in a way that causes confusion. In all the cases bellow its use is arbitrary and rooted in colonial nonsense that creates conflict between people.

The fact that Arabs went from being persecuted to being the Egyptian upper class makes the word useless

"KOLA BOOF presents TODAY'S BLACK EGYPTIANS"

http://poetwomen.50megs.com/about.html

quote:


 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

About a year ago,
one of my uncles wrote to
me from Egypt, quite bitterly.
He said:

People are so busy discussing
and fighting over whether or not
the ancient Egyptians were "black"
---that they forgot we're still here.

We still exist.

The Arabs who claim to be Egyptians
have not exterminated ALL of
us yet...

BUT my uncle is right.
The true Egyptians--the Black Egyptians
do still exist, and instead of debating
about the "ancient" people....why do
we never force the WHITE MEDIA to show
images of the black ones?

Why is it that in America--only the
WHITE ARAB INVADER groups, the BEJA
and the Noor are ever shown on television
or in magazines?

Why do they insist on painting EGYPT
as a WHITE nation with no connection
to Africa?

Clearly..these photos of EGYPTIAN
Black people---photos that are NOW
TODAY---demonstrate that Egypt is not
a White nation. There are millions
of BLACK EGYPTIANS who still exist.

The apparent lack of discrimination (against blacks) in Turkey

And did the association of dark skinned people with Arabs come from an early colonial fallacy?

“Turks with African ancestors want their existence to be felt”

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=141522


quote:

 -
Apart from being the focus of some superstitions, most Afro-Turks say they have never been humiliated or discriminated against by the society. However, overcoming prejudice while looking for someone to marry is not as easy as one would hope. Kayacan notes that sometimes the family does not approve of their son or daughter marrying an Afro-Turk.
Afro-Turks are often called “Arabs” in Turkey. They also refer to themselves as Arabs, at times. This has led to a situation in which “Arab” means “black.” Ege University Professor Ahmet Yürür explains. “For the Turks, Africa was only the northern part of the continent: from Egypt to Morocco. This part was of course under Arab influence. Turks were never really interested in the south of the continent. This is why this community has come to be called ‘Arab,’” he says.

“The natural history of man” written a century ago

http://books.google.com/books?id=mkwBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA139&dq?


quote:

VI.—THE ARABS OP AFRICA.

Before concluding this account of the nations of Middle Africa, we may introduce here, as perhaps the most appropriate place, a short notice of the Arabs in Africa. Though these are principally to be found in Egypt and Nubia, yet there are tribes of them in Atlantica and the Sahara. The principal of these Northern Arabs are the Machil, Hillel, and Cachin. There are others who have mingled with the native tribes.

Those of pure blood have the characteristies of the Arabians. They are tall, well-made, with flashing eyes, and fine mouths. Many of them are of black complexion. They nevertheless retain all the features of the Arabians, and can be at once recognised as such....

Arabs in Egypt.—Arabs, also, form the greatest portion of the present population of Egypt. They bear the name of Fellahs, or Agriculturists, and are the poor people of the land. The Turks treat them very cruelly. It is asserted that they came to Egypt in 640 A.D. They are nearly black, yet some are of a much lighter colour. Their features are Arabic. Their eyes are half shut, owing to their exposure to the sun, and many of them are blind, either of one or both eyes…..

On Algeria

"Barbary and enlightenment" By Ann Thomson

http://books.google.com/books?id=j7wfAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA109

quote:

“Campbell, in 1834, prefers Moors(to Kabyles), who, he says, are physically more attractive and have a fairer complexion and more dignified manners. The Kabyles, he insists, dress like the Arabs and, apart from a few tribes, are ‘brown complexioned and black-haired.….

Some observers considered all the natives to be equally savage. This is the opinion expressed by Hain who saw no difference between ‘Arabs’ and Kablyes and considered them as all equally incapable of civilization and worthy of extermination.

“THE PREDOMINANT AND ORIGINAL POPULATION OF ANCIENT EGYPT ACCORDING TO EUROPEAN “SCHOLARS” AND “HISTORIANS”

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-orignal-africans-of-ancient-egypt-the-black-egyptians-edited-by-dana-marniche/
quote:

Quote from 1867 by Egyptologist Champollion-Figeac - “The first tribes that inhabited Egypt that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataracts and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt . It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race.” From Letters published by Champollion-Figeac (Founding Egyptologist).

Also written by Jean Francois Champollion
“Dr. Larrey investigated this problem in Egypt; he examined a large number of mummies, studied their skulls, recognized the principle characteristics, tried to identify them in the various races living in Egypt, and succeeded in doing so. The Abyssinian seemed to him to combine them all, except for the black race. The Abyssinian has large eyes, an agreeable glance.prominent cheekbones; the cheeks form a regular triangle with prominent angles of the jawbone and mouth; the lips are thick without being everted as in Blacks; the teeth are fine, just slightly protruding ; finally, the complexion is merely copper-colored: such are the Abyssinians observed by Dr. Larrey generally known as Berbers or Barabras, present-day inhabitants of Nubia.” quoted in the African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality published by Lawrence Hill, 1974 by Cheikh Anta Diop.

1886 The fundamental character of the Egyptians in respect of physical type, language and tone of thought, is Negritic. The Egyptians were not negroes, but they bore resemblance to the negro which is indisputable. Found in - Ancient Egypt by George Rawlinson and Arthur Gilman, London, 1886, p. 24.

1911 - Anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith -the physical characteristics of the present day Nubian, Beja, Danakil, Galla, and Somali populations are if we leave out of account the alien negro and Semitic traits are an obvious token of their undoubted kinship with the proto-Egyptians . Found on page 75 in The Ancient Egyptians and the Origin of Civilization (London/New York, Harper & Brothers).

“The Egyptians, though healthy, large and robust were clumsy in their forms and course in their features. Like other African tribes they were woolly haired, flat-nosed and thick lipped, and if not absolutely black were very near it in color.” Found in Specimens of Ancient Sculpture Society of Dilettanti, Vol 1. quoted by J.A. Rogers, Nature Knows No Color Line p. 41, 1952.

1939 - “…the type of certain Pharaohs, like Ramses II, appears related to the Abyssinian type.” Quote found in, The Races of Europe, Macmillan, 1939 p. 96 by anthropologist and racist Carleton S. Coon of the University of Pennsylvania (a supporter of the eugenics movement in America).
————————————————————————————
European Historians On the Fellaheen of Egypt and Sinai in Contrast to the Turks and Copts until the 19th Century

Up until the 19th century, and in the centuries previous, European visitors to Egypt commonly contrasted the dark brown, half-naked and indigenous Fellaheen agriculturalists with the fair or pale-complexioned Turkish-originated population of Egypt dressed in robes and furs that had entered the country in large numbers. Today most natives of the United Arab Republic of Eygpt consider themselves (thanks to European colonials) representative of the indigenous people of ancient Egypt . However, it is clear that less than a century ago this was not the case. Most of the agriculturalists in Egypt had absorbed for centuries the incoming Bedouins of the Arabian peninsula who were according to most accounts dark or brown and the same color as the indigenous Egyptians, as well as large numbers of slaves in early days from Asia and later mostly African and Slavic slaves. Descendants of Byzantines made up a significant number of the early Copts during the Muslim era. On the other hand Turks in the 18th through 20th centuries made up a rather significant portion of Egypt’s major cities and their descendants remain representative of the upper class of Egypt as well as other regions of North Africa.

1845 - A traveling lawyer from the mid 19th century Dawson Borrer wrote of brown fellahs half unclad, women wrapped up in scanty unwashed garments with their faces daubed in curious devices of blue paint and naked children from A Journey from Naples to Jerusalem, by Way of Athens, Egypt and the Peninsula of Sinai p. 90 by Dawson Borrer, Esquire translation by M. Linant de Bellefonde.

1860s - Lucie A. Duff Gordon wrote of the appearance of Turkish Mamluk soldiers in Egypt that were fair and blue-eyed who contrast curiously with the brown Fellaheen Gordon In Letters from Egypt 1863-1865 by p. 351-352 published by Elibron Classics in 2001.
1861 - William Henry Bartlett - The streets swarm with Turks in splendid many-coloured robes, half naked brown skinned Arabs The Nile Boat, Or Glimpses of the Land of Egypt by William Henry Bartlett 1861 p. A. Hall, Virtue and Co.
1870 “Samuel Sharpe on city of Alexandria in 1870, the poor of the city, as of old are the half naked brown-skinned Fellahs.†in The History of Egypt : From the Earliest Times ‘Til the Conquest of the Arabs Vol. II, p. 386, London : George Bell and Sons 1885.

1878 - On the nile at Farshut “the swarms of brown Fellaheen†are described in A Thousand Miles Up the Nile by Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards Vol. I 1878. p. 150 published by
1875 - The Fellaheen are described chocolate brown in the text, Contributions to the Ethnology of Egypt in the Journal of Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 4, 1875, pp. 223-254

1879 - If you have no wind you lie in the river and watch the idle flapping of the sail and the crowd of black and brown fellahs howling for baksheesh from Around the World with General Grant : A Narrative of the Visit of General U.S. Grant, Ex-President of the United States to Various Countries in Europe , Asia and Africa in 1877, 1878, 1879 published by John Russell Young, Volume I 1879.

1899 “ With regard to the city of Cairo with its fair-skinned Turks and its native Arab fellaheen - east of this line 500,000 brown skinned Arabs are living in the quaintest and most delightful, but at the same time dirtiest and most dilapidated streets.. Cairo has a population of some 600,000 inhabitants p. 74 from The Redemption fo Egypt by William Basil Worsfold published in 1899 by G. Allen.


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Whatbox
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quote:
Quote from 1867 by Egyptologist Champollion-Figeac - “The first tribes that inhabited Egypt that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataracts and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia. In the Copts of Egypt we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt . It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race.” From Letters published by Champollion-Figeac (Founding Egyptologist).

A genetic study does say now that Copts could represent a genetic timeline of Egypt.

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ausar
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Markellion, its important to distinguish certain European writers because most that I have read reffered to the rural Egyptians as being Fellahin and thus distinguished them from Arabs. Even in rural Egypt today there is a pusedo hierarchy which places Arabs at the top and Fellahin on the bottom.


Most of the Arab invaders into Egypt were forbidden to own land and settle or intermarry with local Egyptians. This is mentioned clearly in the pact of Umar. Up untill the Abbasid caliph Egyptians and other non-Arabs were considered mawali thus had restricted rights and were not eligable to intermarry with Arabs.


Not untill later times under the Fatimids(who were mostly Tunisian imazghen) did Arabs come into Egypt en masse. The bedouin tribes were settled in certain parts of Middle Egypt. This was because Upper Egyptians and areas south of Cairo were the most rebellious to the constant taxiation by various caliphs. Bedouin groups earlier in small numbers pentrated the Delta region.


Just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

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markellion
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Thanks. The main point was that different writers used the label in different ways so it can be misleading

The same way a few writers (who were racists) referred to the Egyptians as Negroids and considered "Bantu" as superior to other Africans. Just the irony that became a school of thought amongst some people 100 years ago

quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Markellion, its important to distinguish certain European writers because most that I have read reffered to the rural Egyptians as being Fellahin and thus distinguished them from Arabs. Even in rural Egypt today there is a pusedo hierarchy which places Arabs at the top and Fellahin on the bottom.


Most of the Arab invaders into Egypt were forbidden to own land and settle or intermarry with local Egyptians. This is mentioned clearly in the pact of Umar. Up untill the Abbasid caliph Egyptians and other non-Arabs were considered mawali thus had restricted rights and were not eligable to intermarry with Arabs.


Not untill later times under the Fatimids(who were mostly Tunisian imazghen) did Arabs come into Egypt en masse. The bedouin tribes were settled in certain parts of Middle Egypt. This was because Upper Egyptians and areas south of Cairo were the most rebellious to the constant taxiation by various caliphs. Bedouin groups earlier in small numbers pentrated the Delta region.


Just wanted to clarify a couple of things.


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markellion
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There were many people that argued against saying "Bantu" were completely separate from the "Sudanese". Some preferred the "Sudanese Negro" this just shows the arbitrariness of how many labels are used

But it looks like originally Bantu was generally a code word for "Less Negro"

Perry Noble:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GIkAAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA7#PRA1-PA7

quote:
The Negro heads the list. He presents himself in two vast regions, and, perhaps, in two branches. If we accept the distinction between the Sudanese Negro and the Bantu, we find the Negro proper in vast Sudan, the Negro-like Bantu south of the tenth parallel of north latitude. Of these twin brothers, the Bantu is generally rated above the Sudanese; but not a few authorities think more highly of the latter, and much by historians and scientists is adduced in his favor.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL @ "less negro", "more negro", "negroid" (nego-like). Notice that there was never such a debaucle over 'caucasian' or 'caucasoid'.

And to answer your comments about darker skinned Egyptians being 'Arabs', it was actually apparent to 19th century Europeans that the black populaces of Egypt were NOT Arab and represented the as they called 'indigenous stock'. However, with height of racist thinking these people began to be labeled as "Hamites" or 'Hamitic caucasians' (literally black-skinned caucasians)!! This category was also expanded to all Northeast Africans such as certain northern Sudanese, Ethiopians, and Somalis etc.

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markellion
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What would be interesting is to read what African geographers wrote about Europe

In the 16th-17th century Europeans seem to have been biased toward exaggerating African unity. This would mean Egypt's contacts with far off places on the continent was exaggerated by Europeans as well as non Europeans like Ibn Battuta Edit: (Ibn Battuta was an African another problem with lables)

Basically In the same way many racists today want to say Egypt is totally different from the rest of Africa early writers (including Europeans) wanted to say Egypt and the rest of Africa were part of a some kind of unified cultural identity. The point of this is simply showing how European attitudes have changed 360 degrees. Racism (against blacks)in the 16th century as we know it wasn't deeply rooted yet. This has significance in re visioning the historical relations Europeans had with people on the African continent. What they said does also have some truth in it the audio just bellow talks about trade connections clear across the continent


Audio:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/rams/10audio3.ram

Its from BBC the story of Africa website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page45.shtml

quote:
"I would like to think there could have been trade between the Kongo and Great Zimbabwe; it could have been indirect because we do not know much of what happened between the BaKongo and the Luba Lunda in the south eastern part of what is now DR Congo, and the Luba Lunda and the copper producers of central Zambia. But these commercial conducts did take place directly or indirectly." - Dr. Innocent Pikirayi
Bellow From "The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained"

http://books.google.com/books?id=380NAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA94

quote:
" From Muli (says Ibn Batutah) the river descends to Yufi (Nufi), one of the greatest kingdoms of Negroland, but to which white men cannot penetrate; and thence it flows to Nubia." It would appear, from this, that the superiority now enjoyed by the people of Nufi in arts and industry, was already acknowledged in the fourteenth century. It is manifest also that the system of the native geographers which converts the Chad da into a continuation of the Kowara, by which the waters of this great river are carried across Bornii to the Nile of Egypt, is of some antiquity. Ibn Batutah believed that the great river below Muli flowed some distance to the south or south-east before it turned eastwards to Nubia. In speaking of Kulwa (Kilwa, or Quiloa), on the eastern coast of Africa, he uses these words:—" A merchant there told me, that the town of Sofalah is half a month's journey from Kulwa, and one month from Yufi in the country of the Limiyin, and that gold is brought from Yufi to Sofalah."" The boldness here evinced in bringing together and joining in commerce countries far asunder, is constantly exhibited in the geographical speculations of an early or ill-informed age. Distances are then enlarged as expediency requires; hypothesis leaps over the vacant spaces, and forcibly stretches the known portions in the opposite sides of a continent till they meet in the centre. Illustrations of this truth may be found in all ages. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Abyssinia, Congo, and Monomotapa were all supposed to meet together. One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.1" The reasoning which led to this statement was, in its nature, exactly the same as that from which the Arabs inferred an intercourse between Sofalah and Yufi. It is not surprising, therefore, that Ibn Batutah, who had far less accurate means of ascertaining the true positions of the places visited by him than the Catholic missionaries, should believe that the remote interior, whence gold was brought to Sofalah, was occupied by the same nation who filled the interior viewed in the opposite direction from Mali. Erroneous as this kind of inference may be, it yet rests on ideas of direction so manifest and unambiguous as to be of material service in explaining an author's meaning. It is plain, then, that Ibn Batutah thought Yufi to lie between Mali and Sofalah, and that the Great River from Muli to Yufi flowed towards Sofalah, but beyond Yufi turned eastwards to Nubia.
Bellow From "Timbuktu the Mysterious" (allot of the author's interpretations are biased)

http://books.google.com/books?id=OYELAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=#PPA96

quote:
He recognised the influence of Egypt, but not in its direct relation, and he believed its civilisation had been received through the medium of the Mohammedan religion ! Now, at the date of the appearance of Islamism in the Sudan (which was towards the eleventh century) the civilisation of the Pharaohs had been dethroned for nearly four hundred years by that of the Khalifs. It is hardly possible that the apostles of a new and essentially exclusive cult would have imported and established the manners of ancient Egypt in preference to those of contemporary and Arabian Egypt, which was at that time at the height of its prosperity. It follows therefore that the direct relation with Egypt must have been instituted prior to the appearance of Islamism. The strength of the connection, in spite of the enormous distance which separates the valley of the Nile from that of the Niger, plainly indicates a direct relation. The current that flowed so persistently and strongly between Egypt and the Sudan up to the sixteenth century represents something more than a merely commercial interest; it reveals the route of an exodus. The influence and commerce of Morocco and Algeria in the Sudan (countries comparatively near) were for a long time overpowered by distant Egypt. We find undeniable proofs of this among the ancient geographers. Ibn Batouta, a Moor, who visited the countries of the Niger in 1352, relates that at Oualata ' the greater part of the inhabitants wore the beautiful costumes of Egypt.' Now Oualata is only two months' journey distant from Morocco, while the valley of the Nile is at a distance of at least eight months. Again, to destroy the powerful and traditional bias of Egypt towards the Niger and establish the preponderance of the northern countries of Africa would require no less than a Moorish occupation in 1592.

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markellion
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The audio link above is broken but you can here it here 17:00-19:00

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/dps/2007/03/070320_kongo_zimbabwe_part11?size=au&bgc=003399&lang=en-ws&nbram=1&nbwm=1

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