posted
The Minoans (Thera, Crete, etc.) weren't Pelasgian (pre-Hellene Greeks).
quote: The Minoans were not Greeks, and their language, religion, and social structures were not Greek. Most of what is known or can be guessed about the Minoans comes from modern Archaeology on Crete. (The little island of Thera also has yielded an important Minoan site.) Evidence suggests that the Minoans emerged from a fusion between existing Cretan inhabitants and invaders from Asia Minor during the era 2900–2200 BCE. These people became master seafarers and built a society inspired partly by contact with the Egyptian Old Kingdom (ca. 2650–2250 BCE). By about 1900 BCE the Minoans were acquiring an Aegean Sea empire and were constructing palaces on Crete—at Cnossus, Phaestus, Mallia, and Khania—that were bigger and more elaborate than any buildings outside the Near East. So confident were the Minoans in their naval power that they declined to encircle their palaces with defensive walls.
Wealth came from Cretan farming and fishing, from taxes paid by subject peoples in the Cyclades and other Aegean locales, and from long-distance trade. Minoan objects discovered by archaeologists outside Crete indicate two-way commerce with Egypt, Asia Minor, and the Levant as well as with western Italy (a region that offered raw tin and copper, the components of Bronze). But much Minoan trade, especially after 1600 BCE, was with the northwestern Aegean mainland now called Greece, where Greek-speaking tribes had been settling since about 2100 BCE.
The Minoans' importance for Greek history is that they supplied the model for the Greeks' Mycenaean Civilization, which arose on the mainland ca. 1600 BCE. The Mycenaean fortress palaces at Mycenae, Tiryns, and elsewhere were warlike imitations of Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenaean skills in metalworking, Pottery-making, and other handicrafts were improved by copying Cretan models. The Mycenaean form of writing—a syllabary script that modern scholars call Linear B, invented soon before 1400 BCE—was copied from the Minoan system (a yet-undeciphered script called Linear A). Eventually the Mycenaeans were ready to challenge Minoan supremacy in the Aegean.
Daily scenes of the Minoans' life are preserved on some of their beautiful art objects, which include cut gems, worked Gold, terra-cotta figurines, vase paintings, and frescoes. Sensuous and modern-seeming in design, Minoan pictorial art favors sea animals and other subjects from nature. Religious scenes often show a goddess (or priestess) with a subordinate male figure or with wild beasts, such as lions, in tame postures. Evidence of this kind leads many scholars to conclude that Minoan religion was centered on a mother goddess or a group of goddesses overseeing nature and bounty. Aspects of Minoan worship apparently infiltrated Greek religion in the cult of certain goddesses, such as Artemis and Hera.
The Minoans ascribed religious or magical power to dancing and to the remarkable athletic performance now known as bull leaping. Minoan reverence for the bull is probably reflected in Greek Myths of later days, such as the interrelated tales of Minos and of Theseus and the Minotaur, or the tale of Heracles and the Cretan bull.
Minoan high society probably revolved around a priest-king or priest-queen whose capital city was Cnossus and whose royal emblem was the labrus, a double-headed ax. Scenes in art suggest a confident, vivacious life at court. Upper-class Women—portrayed as wearing flounced skirts and open-breasted tunics—apparently played prominent roles in court life (as opposed to the secluded existence of women in Greece in later centuries).
The material level enjoyed by the Minoan ruling class was probably unsurpassed anywhere before the late 19th century CE. The Cnossus palace, reaching three stories in parts, boasted clay-piped plumbing and a clever system of air wells to bring light and ventilation to interior rooms. Coinage had not yet been invented, but Minoan wealth was measured in luxury items and in farm surplus such as sheep, pigs, and olive oil (great quantities of which were stored at Cnossus).
The Minoan golden age on Crete, ca. 1900–1450 BCE, was a time of peace but was troubled by natural disasters. Archaeology at Cnossus shows that the palace was destroyed twice by earthquake, ca. 1730 and 1570 BCE. Circa 1480 BCE Cretan coastal regions suffered damage and depopulation, possibly caused by tidal waves from the volcanic explosion of Thera, 70 miles away.
The Cnossus palace, on high ground, survived, but new archaeological signs of distress in the mid-1400s BCE include proliferation of war equipment and the first appearance on Crete of the horse (presumably imported as a tool of war). Overseas, Minoan pottery from this time is absent from certain sites—a sign of disrupted trade routes. Presumably a foreign enemy or number of enemies, taking advantage of Cretan natural disaster, had begun to cut into the Minoan Empire. These enemies surely included groups of Mycenaean Greeks.
In about 1400 BCE or soon after, all the Cretan palaces were destroyed by fire, presumably in war. The most obvious explanation for this simultaneous destruction is a Mycenaean invasion of Crete. Intriguingly, archaeological evidence suggests that, prior to this invasion, Mycenaean Greeks had already taken over the Cnossus palace and that it was they who were destroyed in the palace's ruin. There may have been rival Mycenaean armies, battling each other for control of Crete.
Although the Mycenaean victors seem to have abandoned Crete soon after 1400 BCE, the Minoan culture was finished.
Mycenaean is the term used by modern scholars to describe the earliest flowering of mainland Greek culture, ca. 1600–1200 BCE. The Mycenaeans were Greeks whose warlike society rose and fell long before the era of classical Greece. The classical Greeks of ca. 400 BCE half remembered their Mycenaean forebears as a race of heroes, celebrated in Myth and Epic Poetry.
In world prehistory, the Mycenaeans comprised the last of several great civilizations to emerge in the eastern Mediterranean during the Bronze age. The Mycenaeans' urban building, military organization, and Trade seem to have been partly copied from a few preexisting, non-Greek, Bronze Age cultures—namely, the Middle and New Kingdoms of Egypt, the Hittite kingdom of Asia Minor, and especially, the Minoan Civilization of Crete.
The Mycenaeans lived before the era of history-writing, and thus most details of their story—such as their rulers' names or the reasons why their entire society collapsed in fiery ruin around 1200 BCE—remain unknown. Modern knowledge relies mostly on artifacts uncovered by Archaeology at a few sites, such as Mycenae, Tiryns, and Pylos (in the Peloponnese) and Thebes, Orchomenus, and Athens (in central Greece). The artifacts include Pottery, stone carvings, jewelry, and armor—most of it found in the tombs of rulers—as well as the remnants of Mycenaean stone palaces and defenses. Particularly, the sites of Mycenae and Tiryns still show huge fortifications built by Mycenaean inhabitants in the 1300s and 1200s BCE
In addition, a few sites have yielded primitive Mycenaean written records, inscribed on clay tablets that seem to date from about 1400 BCE or 1200 BCE, depending on the site. Written in a script that modern scholars call Linear B, the records have been deciphered mainly as lists of inventory—produce, livestock, military equipment—and accounts of goods-distribution, religious rites, and similar daily events. The tablets provide precious information on the social structure, economy, and Religion of the Mycenaeans, as well as on the early-stage Greek Language that they spoke.
Aside from archaeology, some insight into the Mycenaeans has been gained from a cautious reading of Homer's epic poems, the Illiad and Odyssey. Although written ca. 750 BCE, more than 400 years after the Mycenaeans' disappearance, these poems derive from oral tradition that stretches back to the Mycenaeans. It is believed that the poems faithfully record certain aspects of Mycenaean upper-class life—such as the warrior code and the network of local kings—amid distortions and overlays.
The first Greek-speaking tribes arrived in mainland Greece ca. 2100 BCE, from the Danube region. But 500 years went by before the emergence of the culture that we call Mycenaean: The remarkable social and technological changes of these intervening centuries can only be guessed at. No doubt the Greeks were deeply influenced by the non-Greek people they had conquered, and from them the Greeks probably learned skills such as stone masonry, shipbuilding, navigation, the cultivation of the olive and certain other crops, and the worship of certain female deities (with associated, new spiritual concepts). Similarly, the Greeks were inspired by the palace society of Minoan Crete.
The Mycenaean era began around 1600 BCE, as archaeology reveals. Several sites in Greece came under control of powerful rulers who were buried in elaborate tombs, unlike the simple graves of prior centuries. And within a few generations the tomb designs altered again, suggesting further dynastic changes and evolving organization. The six treasure-filled tombs at Mycenae known as Grave Circle A—built in the era 1550–1500 BCE and discovered intact by Schliemann—provide clear proof of the rulers' wealth and overseas contacts. For example, the tombs contain items of Gold that were shaped by Greek smiths, but the raw metal probably came from Asia Minor or Egypt. The warlike nature of these leaders is suggested by the many weapons left as offerings in the tombs.
In Greece's terrain, where mountain ranges separate the flatlands, the Mycenaeans apparently emerged as four or so major kingdoms, each based at a large farming plain. Two of these domains were in the Peloponnese: the plain of Argos (with its capital at Mycenae) and the plain of Messenia (capital at Pylos). One was in central Greece: the plain of Boeotia (with the cities Thebes and Orchomenus vying for supremacy). And one was in the north, on the great plain of Thessaly (capital at Iolcus). Lesser kingdoms probably existed as well. But the greatest domain was Mycenae, as indicated by its signs of superior wealth and by the testimony of Greek myth. In Homer's Illiad, the Mycenaean king Agamemnon is the supreme commander, to whom all other kings, such as Odysseus and Nestor, owe obedience.
One event of the Mycenaean era that modern scholars are sure of is that by around 1450 BCE Mycenaeans had taken over the Cretan palace at Cnossus—probably as the result of a Mycenaean naval invasion of Crete. Mysteriously, the Mycenaeans seem to have abandoned Crete soon thereafter, ca. 1400 BCE But the years of occupation there taught Mycenaean rulers certain organizational skills—such as improved architectural techniques and the use of Cretan Writing (adapted at this time, as the Linear B script)—that ushered in 200 years of the Mycenaean heyday in mainland Greece, ca. 1400–1200 BCE
It was now that the Mycenaeans built their own palaces, adapted from the Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenae and Tiryns were turned into elaborate, high-walled castles; other palaces, such as at Pylos, arose without huge defenses. The social and economic structure of these centers is partly revealed by the Linear B tablets. The palace was the seat of the king (wanax in Mycenaean Greek); beyond the capital city, a network of outlying villages paid taxes, obeyed the king's laws, and relied on him for defense against other rulers. Tha palace was also a center of industry, where metalworkers, weavers, perfumers, and many other crafts people turned out finished goods, to enrich the king or to be distributed by him. Raw materials came from local taxes (sheep's wool, for example) and from overseas trade.
The premier metal for war and industry was Bronze (the use of Iron being introduced to the Greek world only later). The search for bronze's two components—copper and tin—led Mycenaean sea traders far and wide. Large remains of Mycenaean pottery in Cyprus show that parts of that copper-rich island were colonized by Mycenaeans. On the western Asia Minor coast, the site of Miletus probably became a Mycenaean trading colony, mainly for the acquisition of raw metals. Toward the other end of the Mediterranean, extant pottery suggests a Mycenaean presence in western Italy, where tin could be found.
The Mycenaean rulers commanded armies of heavy infantry. The soldiers' standardized equipment, including bronze breastplates and helmets, is recorded on Linear B tablets. Various evidence paints a picture of Mycenaean kings or princes leading Viking-like raids overseas, of which the biggest were the (presumed) invasions of Crete and Cyprus. On certain Linear B tablets, Slaves are mentioned by names that suggest they came from Asia Minor; probably they were captured in Mycenaean raids there. The Greek myth of Jason (1) and the Argonauts may distortedly commemorate such an overseas expedition. But the Mycenaean kingdoms fought also against each other: the legend of the Seven Against Thebes seems clearly based on actual warfare between Mycenae and Thebes.
By about 1250 BCE the Mycenaean world had come under pressure, due partly to upheavals in the Near East. The decline of the Hittite kingdom in Asia Minor probably brought a gradual closing of the Mycenaeans' eastern trade routes. Deprived of raw metals for industry and conquest, Mycenaean society began to whither. The Greek legend of the Trojan War may recall the Mycenaeans' attempt to keep trade routes open by removing the interfering, non-Greek, Hellespontine city Troy, ca. 1220 BCE
Finally, it seems, the Mycenaean kingdoms turned against each other and destroyed each other, in a desperate bid for survival. Archaeology clearly reveals the fiery ruin of Thebes, Mycenae, and other centers in the 50 years leading down to 1200 BCE At Pylos, the final days are dramatically indicated in emergency troop movements and religious sacrifices recorded on Linear B tablets.
Modern historians used to believe that this wholesale destruction was the work of outsiders—specifically, Dorian Greeks invading from the northwest. But more recent scholarship concludes that the Dorian invasion, ca. 1100 BCE, was merely opportunistic: The Mycenaeans had already exhausted themselves through internal war.
In the villages outside of the wrecked palaces, Mycenaean society survived on an improverished scale during the 1100s BCE Social change in these rural areas can be glimpsed in the development of a certain Greek word: The official title quasireu, which during the Mycenaean heyday had indicated a local sheriff (a relatively low position), gradually changed to basileus and took on a new meaning, "king." These men became the new local rulers within the disintegrated Mycenaean kingdoms.
David Sacks Ancient Greece: Minoan civilization. Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World. New York: Facts On File, Inc., 1995
posted
The alpha cluster of the E3b-M78, a European development of a gene originating in "black" Africa shows dispersion in the area delimitted by Winchell's "Pelasgian Empire" (pre-Indo European north Mediterranean, Balkans, and west Anatolia), substantiates a "black" African component in their overall makeup possibly explaining occasional occurences of inner African phenotypical elements displayed by some of them. Ancient mythographers unaware of the science could have incorporated this presence in epics of migration using eponymous ancestors like Cadmus, Danaos, and others, -- even more so in the indigenous Inachus, Phoroneus, Io, Epaphos, and Pelasgus himself -- though the protohistorical evidence of contacts with the Levant and northern Africa cannot be ruled out.
quote: The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81, and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously distributed on the African continent: * E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa, * E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa, * E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and * E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans (Cruciani et al. 2002).
. . . .
Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades, (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.
. . . .
Haplogroup E-M78 was observed over a wide area, including * eastern (21.5%) and * northern (18.5%) Africa, * Near East (5.8%), * Europe (7.2%), where it represents by far the most common E3b subhaplogroup.
. . . .
The network of the E-M78 chromosomes reveals a strong geographic structuring, since each of the clusters a, b, and g reaches high frequencies in only one of the regions analyzed. Cluster a ... is very common in the Balkans (with frequencies of 20%–32%), and its frequencies decline toward western Europe, 7.4% in Sicily, 7.0% in continental Italy, 4.3% in Corsica, 3.0% in France, 2.2% in Iberia and 1.1% in Sardinia, and northeastern (2.6%) Europe. In the Near East, this cluster is essentially limited to Turkey (3.4%). The relatively high frequency of DYS413 24/23 haplogroup E chromosomes in Greece suggests that cluster a of the E-M78 haplogroup is common in the Aegean area, too.
. . . .
... later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving * clusters a in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.3–9.2 ky), * b in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.2–7.5 ky), and * g in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.2–12.9 ky) should be considered the main contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed area.
The present distributions of these clusters also suggest episodes of range expansions. ...the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78a within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly ... consistent with either a smallscale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is difficult to distinguish between these possibilities.
. . . .
In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78d chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved shortrange migrations within Africa (E-M78g and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78b), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78alpha). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
Fulvio Cruciani, et al Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1014–1022, 2004
posted
Tsk tsk. The topic is CLASSIC GREECE AND ITS POPULATION'S ORIGINS not Martin Bernal and Black Athena (a book I for one never read and never reference nor quote from).
Stick to the topic or I'll have moderation delete those posts that do not.
posted
The ancient Greeks themselves admit writing came to them from the Levant. They have a myth of Cadmus bringing the alphabet from Phoenicia. Cadmus is the hellenized Semitic root QDM which mean "the east" and "of old." According to the myth, Cadmus the Phoenician is a descendent of Libya.
From Herodotus Histories book 5
quote: LVIII. These Phoenicians who came with Cadmus and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed. [2] At this time the Greeks who were settled around them were for the most part Ionians, and after being taught the letters by the Phoenicians, they used them with a few changes of form. In so doing, they gave to these characters the name of Phoenician, as was quite fair seeing that the Phoenicians had brought them into Greece. [3] The Ionians have also from ancient times called sheets of papyrus skins, since they formerly used the skins of sheep and goats due to the lack of papyrus. Even to this day there are many foreigners who write on such skins.
LIX. I have myself seen Cadmean writing in the temple of Ismenian Apollo at Thebes of Boeotia engraved on certain tripods and for the most part looking like Ionian letters. On one of the tripods there is this inscription:
Amphitryon dedicated me from the spoils of Teleboae.
This would date from about the time of Laius the son of Labdacus, grandson of Polydorus and great-grandson of Cadmus.
posted
actually the minons are thought to have come from the northwest. Greek and proto Greek experts like Dr Chadwick have traced the roots of their language to the NW of Greece. very little , however, is known past that. That they came from SW asia is just Afrocentric nonsense.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
^ Virtually nothing of substance relevant to classical Greece comes from the northern Europe; certainly not literacy, mathamatics or agriculture.
Northern Europeans were just barbarians - according to the Greeks.
The notion of the Aryan Greece is just NAZI wishful thinking.
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posted
You must develop your discourse beyond the super simplistic methodology of "I say so, so it is so" by learning the rudimentary scholastics of citing a reference by author, work, year, and page number, along with a fully contextual quoted passage (that is, if you want anyone at all to take you seriously).
Your dogmatic assertions are less than useless. They are misleading to those who, like yourself, have yet to learn the ways of academia.
Please try again, I'm sure with a little effort on your part you can produce something at least worthy of middle school level.
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: actually the minons are thought to have come from the northwest. Greek and proto Greek experts like Dr Chadwick have traced the roots of their language to the NW of Greece. very little , however, is known past that. That they came from SW asia is just Afrocentric nonsense.
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posted
All of Chadwick's books on the subject are readily avilable. Reading history is a good thing. If you read the material you are less apt to come up with these wild ideas based on supposition.
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The Greeks are european and there is no distinction between them and other Europeans, northern or otherwise. Classical scholars feel that the black genes that exist in Greece, Italy and elsewhere were introduced over thousands of years via slavery and other later contacts. All of you guys know that, you are simply blowing smoke for political reasons. These nutty radical ideas will never be part of classical scholarship.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:The Greeks are european and there is no distinction between them and other Europeans, northern or otherwise
Yes there is, and here are some of the specific points of distinction, feel free to refute them with 'facts' if you can, as opposed to empty posturing and smug attitude for which you are notorious:
1) Less than 50 percent of Greek paternal ancestry is of European origin [R1b + I], these lineages make up over 90% of much of Northern Europe.
2) Almost 25% of Greek paternal heritage is African, and nearly another 1/4 is SouthWest Asian. These lineages make up less than 10% of Northern European heritage.
3) Civilisation began in Nile Valley Africa, and Mesopotamian SouthWest Asia several thousand years prior to European civilisation, when Europeans finally developed a civilisation...it was in the Greek zone of Afro-Asian/European MIXTURE. During this time, there is NO civilistion in Northern Europe....therefore it is entirely insensible to attribute Greek civilisation to Nordic barbarians. Peoples who did not yet have civilisation. People whom the ancient Greeks themselves considered to be savages.
Conclusion: Northern Europeans inherit civilisation from Southern Europe [Rome and Greece], who inherit civilisation from Africa and SouthWest Asia.
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posted
Again, my quoted and cited source [url=http://www] David Sacks Ancient Greece: Minoan civilization. Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World. New York: Facts On File, Inc., 1995
is far from your own "wild ideas based on supposition" which is apparently all that you can offer. Your word is less than useless. It is distracting from the serious academic level I insist this thread maintain.
Don't give us your word. Pick up your "readily avilable (sic)" source and post a fully contextual properly cited quote from it (if you know how to do that).
Please desist filabustering and provide a fully contextual quote referenced by complete citation.
Also if you have no substance (i.e., quotes like I've provided) I'd appreciate you not devolving the level of this thread into mere opinionated babble and chit chat.
Thank you for complying.
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: All of Chadwick's books on the subject are readily avilable. Reading history is a good thing. If you read the material you are less apt to come up with these wild ideas based on supposition.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Classical scholars feel that the black genes that exist in Greece, Italy and elsewhere were introduced over thousands of years via slavery and other later contacts.
Appeal to Authority fallacy, and heresay.
For the following reasons....
1) Geneticists attribute African ancestry in Greeks to the Neolithic era, preceding classical Greece.
2) Classical scholars are not geneticists. Any opinion of classical scholars on genetics would be irrelevant.
3) Because classical scholars are not geneticists, they do not generally venture irrelevant opinion on genetics.
Conclusion: Since you have *no actual reference* to classical scholars views on genetics, making wild statements about their presumed opinions on genetics constitutes heresay. And even if you could produce and actual classicist citation, it would not help you to either refute or evade the facts of genetics. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Genetics makes no links between any black Africans and historicc Greeks , of any kind. I asked you to prove that over and over and all you could say is that the genes are there with NO specifics to prove your case. Reading the Brace study you cannot even prove that neolithics carrying the gene were still even black, when the gene was introduced etc. this is a shamp put forth by people who come from a cultural background that is out of the loop in the creation of the modern world who wish to piggyback onto the acomplishments of others.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Genetics makes no links between any black Africans and historic Greeks.
Incorrect. Geneticists Underhill, Arnaiz-Villena, Cruciani and others have all specifically associated African lineages in ancient Greeks with the origin of the Eurasian Neolithic.
quote:I asked you to prove that over and over
Specific evidence was provided over and over.
You never address it, for the following reasons:
1) You don't understand genetics.
2) You have no hope of refuting it.
3) You don't like the facts related by geneticists and so prefer to ignore them.
quote: and all you could say is that the genes are there with NO specifics to prove your case.
Specifically, and for the umpteenth time - 24% of Greek males are of East African ancestry via E3b1, which is of alpha cluster which coallesces in Europe with the Neolithic.
This specifically means that the African ancestry in the Greeks does not come from post classical Greece but rather pre-classical Greece.
It's not our fault that you are too stupid to understand the specifics, and too much of a dishonest bigot to acknolwedge them. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The problem is that you lack the educational background to understand how to sequence your data.
1. 24% of Greek males ARE NOT of East African . Twenty four percent carry a gene, if indeed that is the case, but what connection it has to Africa in terms of time is unknown.
2. It could easily come from post classical greece if the blacks involved carried the gene.
You are making a HUGE assumption that no serious scholar would ever make. You are trying to sell a point with no supporting evidence, you do that with Egypt all the time. You cannot even connect the "gene" with eastern Africa in any kind of specific time period. You cannot prove that the gene arrive in Europe directly from eastern Africa or give any specific time frame for that occurance. You can show no point of contact, no archeological evidence, no linguistic evidence and certanily no cultural evidence.
In short you have no specifics at all and are silly enough to try to say that the existence of the gene is a specific piece of evidence.
The hard cold fact are that you are 'busting a gut' to try to take credit for the acomplishments of people you have no connection to at all.
genetics alone cannot answer historical questions. In fact, in this case they are serving to confuse those who lack the training to properly deal with them.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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What is the provenance of E-M78 according to the AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN GENETICS:
quote:In conclusion, high-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal regional population differentiations, an East Africa homeland for E-M78, and recent gene-flow episodes consistent with the Neolithic in Europe. In particular, the spatial distributions of J-M172*, J-M267, E-M78, and E-M123 indicate expansions from the Middle East toward Europe
What about the "CLASSICAL" Greeks? Did the carry East African lineages?
Well lets look at what the AM Journal of Human Genetics says.
Geneticists wanted to test the hypothesis that Greeks colonized parts of Italy starting around 750BC. They decided that the best way is to test the populations in the relevant regions of Italy for "Greek signature lineages".
What are these lineages: J and E3B (E-M78)
quote:Southern Italy (Apulia and Calabria) contains sites of the early Neolithic period (Whitehouse 1968), but we know from history that these regions were subsequently colonized by the Greeks (Peloponnesians). To test the relative contribution of Greek colonists versus putative earlier Neolithic settlers, an admixture analysis (Bertorelle and Excoffier 1998) was performed, using E-M78 and J-M172(xM12) as signatures of Greek and Anatolian lineages, respectively.
posted
and this means what? we already agree that these genes were found throughout the region. Where is the supporting evidence? Where are the specifics.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Give not that which is holy unto the dogs; neither cast your pearls before swine lest they trample them under their feet.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Callypso, This is a typical response on this board. substitute personal attacks for actual data. There is not a bit of evidence to support your position. You establish the presence of a gene in SOME people thousands of years ago and from that work up an entire mythical history.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tk101: perhaps if you state were you got those figures,Rasol, the ineption will fade
It won't.
I keep telling you, you overestimate Arrow/Horemheb.
He neither cares where the figures come from, or what they mean.
He's simply and ignorant bigot trying to defend and archaic Eurocentric ideology, and instead demonstrating Eurocentrisms sheer desparation and intellectual bankrupcty.
As for the answer, the figure comes form Ornella Semino's study of Greeks, which has been reiterrated by Cruciani, Underhill and every other study of the Greeks.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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East African [what?], please spout your ignorance in complete sentences so that we can more accurately demolish your nonsense.
quote:Twenty four percent carry a gene
Wrong. E3b isn't a gene. It is a unique event polymorphism that functions as a 'marker'.
The marker identifies the source of the Y chromosome.
The Y chromosome is inherited directly from your father, therefore Y chromsome is direct paternal bloodline, as shown...
24 percent of Greeks are of direct African paternal lineages, from a time period that must stem from Neolithic migrations.
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yes your right Rasol, Arrow needs some help with elementry reasoning...
Arrow, why do find this fact so disturbing. Does it bother you that the Greeks you love to idolize as pure europeans, were simply of mixed ethnicities? i wish to know what are your sources to disprove what they have said...Personal opinions mean nothing, you should step up to the plate before its too late....
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
^^Thank you rasol, for showing Professor el unintelligente via picture (don know if it will help but it will make it easier for him to comprehend) that paternal lineages come from papi.
I was a second away from psting when I decided to see how many more posts followed his brain dead motionings of "the gene does not mean a thing".
btw, rasol, supercar, you get my private messages to you?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
E-M35 has been found in Africa, the Near East, and Europe -> where it is believed to have arrived in Neolithic times (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000)
^ Professor Arrow -> please remember the above when you come back next week, asking the same question, and pretending it was not answered.
And when you do, I will cut and paste this very reply, just to demonstrate that you are such a sorry,predictable, self deluding, lying troll.
Now, have a nice day. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I'm not pretending it was not answered. Refresh my memory, what dig was it that ypou said showed the interaction of large numbers of Africans and Greeks? Did I miss that post?
You have yet to prove tht the people you spoke of were even still Africans when they arrived (if they did) but since you can't tell me when all this took place I'll excuse that.
All you know how to do is call names and nobody cares about that.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Journal of Human Evolution (1972) 1, 307 - 313 "...one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972 - The People of Lerna: Analysis of a Prehistoric Aegean Population), probably FROM NUBIA.
Any other redundant questions?..... Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
WHERE!!! What village? What site? Hell, we know they were there, thats not the point. PROBABLY from Nubia???? And you base all of these contentions on PROBABLY and yet claim to be some sort of scholar. In fact, you do not know squat. You cannot answer a damn thing rasol. Wake up son and get with the program. First of all you are going back 20,000 years and point out something that (1) we all agree on and (2) has no substative connection to the greeks of history. Many people in the Balkans qualify as well but they are not african and were not in ancient times.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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The People of Lerna: Analysis of a Prehistoric Aegean Population
Review of Lerna, a preclassical site in the Argolid, results of excavations conducted by the American School of Classical Studies at Athens. Vol. I. The Fauna by Nils-Gustaf Gejvall.
Field lists of skeletal material, 1935-1958 (includes lists of material from Agora, Corinth, Mycenae, Argos, Lerna, Eleusis, Pylos....
About Lerna:
In classical Greece, Lerna was a region of springs and a former lake near the east coast of the Peloponnesus, south of Argos. It is most famous as the lair of the Lernaean Hydra, the chthonic many-headed water snake, a creature of great antiquity when Heracles killed it, as the second of his labors.
Any other redundant questions?
When you're thru making a fool of yourself, by being too stupid to even read the links provided, just let us know.
My part is simply to cut and paste the provided answers which you are too lazy and stupid to read.
I don't mind, if you don't mind. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Hell, we know they were there, thats not the point. PROBABLY from Nubia????
Exactly. According to Professor Larry Angel - it's a direct quote.
Heartbreaking, ain't it?
Angel concluded this 30 years ago, based on skeletal study.
This was before the genetics proved that he was ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, since that is exactly where neolithic in Greece originates from, based on genetics, archeology and physical anthropology...
1) Nubia [Khartoum Mesolithic]
2) Pre-Badarian Egypt
3) Natufian/Levantine
4) Macedonia/Anatolia.
Don't like it?
Feel free to refute the esteemed Anthropologist Larry Angel.
Maybe you can personally attack Larry Angel in sheer ignorant desperation by calling him and 'afrocentric', like you did with Bar Yosef.
What a silly little man you are!
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I read what you put up but its just more speculation and silliness. I can assure you that the american school of Classical studies in athens does not share your way out views.
You are on a road that will never take you anywhere rasol, keep driving.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
He'll just keep ignoring the evidence. Not so much ignoring as denying.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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there is no evidence, probably is not fact, its probably. Thats the MO you guys use all of the time
Probably, could be, might be, etc Its the same kind of logic that the UFO people use. greeks are not Africans. Africans have nothing to do with western civilization aside from cheap labor and resources. Africa hsitorically has been a backwater from the beginning, how could they contribute to what anyone else was doing. Thats not a diss, just a fact. Even today the place is a disease infected mud hole that survives on American and European loans and welfare.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:I can assure you that the american school of Classical studies in athens does not share your way out views.
Mission statement:
quote:The American School of Classical Studies at Athens, founded in 1881, is the principal resource in Greece for American scholars conducting advanced research on the language, literature, art, history, archaeology, and philosophy of Greece and the Greek world from pre-Hellenic times to the present.
This school cannot be an arbiter of issues related to genetics Hore. But can you provide a quote from the school that they disagree with the findings we've posted here?
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: there is no evidence, probably is not fact, its probably. Thats the MO you guys use all of the time
Probably, could be, might be, etc Its the same kind of logic that the UFO people use. greeks are not Africans. Africans have nothing to do with western civilization aside from cheap labor and resources. Africa hsitorically has been a backwater from the beginning, how could they contribute to what anyone else was doing. Thats not a diss, just a fact. Even today the place is a disease infected mud hole that survives on American and European loans and welfare.
ahhhh, the final peice to the puzzle.
You just couldn't stay incogracist for long huh??
The truth really is some powerful sh!t.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Go argue with the Classical Studies school in Athens, I've made my points, enough is enough. have a great holiday and new year.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:there is no evidence, probably is not fact, its probably. Thats the MO you guys use all of the time
Can you read, he said probably from nubia as in, that's who resembled - which was comfirmed later anyway! Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I have to say, this was the most comical topic i have seen...i learned something new and had fun reading....job well done
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2006
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One of the things that make toying with you fun "professor" is that you are a Eurocentrist pseudo scholar who is probably ignorant of almost every facet of scholarship that might be associated with and actual college degree ['probably' you are and american high school flunk out].
All scientific theory is rooted in probability.
When a scientist states that something is 'probably' true, it is a very strong statement.
It must be based on a *preponderence* of evidence - ie - probability - not a lack of evidence.
In science - a lack of evidence means that you do not even have, a proper theory.
But then, you don't understand even elementary principals of science do you?
Here I'll show you:
30 years ago, anthropologist Larry Angel said there was probably a migration from Africa to Greece in the Neolithic.
Genetics has confirmed that Larry Angel was probably right.
Now, you probably hate this fact.
But, you probably don't understand genetics.
You are probably also extremely lazy and will never bother to read Larry Angel's study - beyound what I 'spoon feed you'.
But then, you're probably and idiot who hasn't a prayer of refuting Larry Angel's work even if you read it.
Deep down, you probably know this, and that is one reason you don't even bother to read it.
It would be like Forest Gump reading Albert Einstein, probably a waste of his 'precious' time.
For all these reasons, all of your pleading posts in all probability accomplish nothing except to make you look like the empty headed racist fool you probably are.
But don't feel insulted, after all...I said 'probably'.
Like Professor Angel, I base probability on the case evidence.
quote:Originally posted by MyRedCow: Don't forget Sickle Cell Anemia.
Historically there has been a great deal of dissembling about the precense of Sickle Cell in ancient Greece.
Sickle Cell is technically 'a phenotype'.
It means blood cells shaped like sickles.
It's like dark skin, or blue eyes, or thin noses.
Now sickle cells are subject to selection and in theory, they are polygenic in origin, undergoing positive selection in malarial regions and negative selection in regions without malaria.
Meaning different peoples might develope sickle cells independantly.
For a long while, there was a 'hope' in Eurocentric circles that it would be proven that Southern Europeans developed sickle cell independantly of African ancestry.
But genetics strikes again, and revealed a shocking truth.
There are 4 known lineages [genotypes] of HBs, the autosome [gene] that 'causes' sickle cells.
One lineage developed in West Africa and is called Benin Hbs.
Another developed in Central Africa and is called Bantu/Haplotype [perhaps developed among pre-bantu native central Africans, and spread recently during the Bantu migration].
A 3rd developed independantly among South Asians, and is called the "Arab/India" Haplotype. [possibly spread from Southern India back into Arabia]
Now southern Europeans....have exactly one lineage of sickle cell phenotype - Benin Hbs.
It is specifically due to the African ancestry they inherit.
It is very interesting that Europeans who have both SouthWest Asian and African ancestry - don't have Arab Haplotype, but do have Benin Haplotype.
Couple side notes:
Sickle cell phenotype has also been found in pre-dynastic Egyptian tombs.
The diminuative Black peoples of Melanesia do not have 'any' form of sickle cell. They have completely unique adaptations that give them resistence to Malaria - one example of how they are more distant genetically from Africans than say, Greeks.
posted
Since Arrow is so weak, let's move on to the more interesting protests from Eurocentrists.
Such as - it's only a gene.
Actually the Y chromosome consists of hundreds of genes, and is inherited entirely from the daddy and only the daddy.
In other words - your mothers daddy or maternal grandfather cannot contribute to your Y chromosome.
Some Eurocentrists run away from the Y chromosome via autosomal or other studies.
The argument is essentially that uni-parental inheritance matters less than autosomal genes inherited at random from either or both parents.
Autosomes [such as Benin Hbs] are important too, but they do not give a 'superior' or more accurate view of human genotype than the sex chromosome for the reason just noted.
Let's take a look at the Y chromsome graph again...
In terms of all the genes on the Y chromsome all those blue daddy figures to the right on the graph below 'don't matter'. You can't inherit their Y chromosome.
So it should be clear...
To have E3b is to inherit hundreds of African genes, not just one, moreover, many of those genes are quite literally related to what it means to be a 'man'. That's what the Y chromosome is after all....and that's why it works the way it does.
In sexual selection - you don't choose your wife because of her father's manly genes, you choose her because of her 'female' genes, she chooses you because of your 'maleness', and thats exactly what your son's receive. This prevents sexual selection from 'backfiring', wherein sons would recieve mother's female traits and daughters receive father's male traits, defeating the whole purpose of sex chromsomes. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Modern Greece is a small southern European country on the fringe of Europa. Most Europeans are not E Y chromosme people. Most Africans are.
I bet you Arrow99 is not European American from Texas, but Hispanic. You can see who wrote the Negroes in Greece pages I pointed to.
These people on the fringes of Europe and North Africa are of no consequence in the modern world. The future really belongs to the USA, Asia (China, India, etc), the Nordic EU, the USA and Africa is playing and ever increasing role. So ignore Arrow99 like-minded folks.
Modern Greece is almost Middle Eastern.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Posted last year here [and on the Nile Valley forum], but here is another "Afrocentric" source on the Minoans, whom the Myceneans and the "classical" Greeks inherited much from; think of the Minoans as one of the folks through whom African and "SW Asian" culture flowed into Europe. Of course, this flow of culture continued to be the case well into the 'classical' Greek periods, but reading on...
"The story of European civilization really begins on the island of Crete with a civilization that probably thought of itself as Asian (in fact, Crete is closer to Asia than it is to Europe). Around 1700 BC, a highly sophisticated culture grew up around palace centers on Crete: the Minoans. What they thought, what stories they told, how they narrated their history, are all lost to us. All we have left are their palaces, their incredibly developed visual culture, and their records. Mountains of records. For the Minoans produced a singular civilization in antiquity: one oriented around trade and bureaucracy with little or no evidence of a military state. They built perhaps the single most efficient bureaucracy in antiquity. This unique culture, of course, lasted only a few centuries, and European civilization shifts to Europe itself with the foundation of the military city-states on the mainland of Greece. These were a war-like people oriented around a war-chief; while they seemed to have borrowed elements of Minoan civilization, their's was a culture of battle and conquest. We call them the Myceneans after the best-preserved of their cities, and their greatest accomplishment, it would seem, was the destruction of a large commercial center across the Aegean Sea in Asia Minor: Troy. Shortly after this defining event, their civilizations fell into a dark ages, in which Greeks stopped writing and, it seems, abandoned their cities. It was an inauspicious start for the Europeans: while the Mesopotamians and the Egyptians had enjoyed almost two thousand years of continuous civilization, in Europe the experiement began with the brilliance of the Minoan commercial states translated into the brief, war-like city-states of the Myceneans, only to slip back into the tribal groups that had characterized European civilization for almost all of its history. In spite of this, the basic character of European civilization is laid down in this early experiment; even though they slip into obscurity, the Greeks will permanently remember the Myceneans as the defining moment in their history. ..
They [Minoans] were a people of magnificent social organization, culture, art, and commerce. There is no evidence that they were a military people; they thrived instead, it seems, on their remarkable mercantile abilities. This lack of a military culture, however, may have spelled their final downfall. For the Minoans also exported their culture as well as goods, and a derivative culture grew up on the mainland of Greece, the Myceneans, who were a war-like people. Strangely enough, the direct inheritors of their traditions may have been the agents of their destruction.
But we know now that Greek civilization began at least a millenium before the Age of Athens and almost eight hundred years before Homer. It began off the mainland of Greece, in the Aegean Sea, in the palaces of the bureaucrat-kings of Minoa...
The archaeological evidence points to only a few reasonable certainties about Minoan history. Around 3000 BC, Crete was settled by a people who probably came from Asia Minor, who, by 2000 BC was already living in cities, trading with other nations in the Mediterranean, and employing a hieroglyphic system of writing, probably derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics. This hieroglyphic writing would eventually evolve into a linear script. They built magnificent palace centers at Knossos, Phaistos, and Kato Zakros; these palaces seem to have dominated Cretan society. We have no idea what language they spoke, but they certainly spoke a non-Hellenic language (that is, a language not closely related to Greek) and probably spoke a non-Indo-European language. "
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