Originally posted by Debunker:
quote:Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches: I take particular offense that the son-of-bitches that were responsible for the almost total destruction of people in the Americas, and the bringers of the vileness that exists there today, would now turn their attention to further spreading the lies of other Europeans in such a bare-faced way. At least the other A-holes make an attempt to dress-up their B.S.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
You should throw some anthropology and genetics in there.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001288.html
Something like this.
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
quote:So you're implicating Greeks and other Southern Europeans, don't carry recent Neolithic African admixture? Particularly E3b1, Benin hbs, L1, L2 lineages and some A? Which in result
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches: I take particular offense that the son-of-bitches that were responsible for the almost total destruction of people in the Americas, and the bringers of the vileness that exists there today, would now turn their attention to further spreading the lies of other Europeans in such a bare-faced way. At least the other A-holes make an attempt to dress-up their B.S.
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
You should throw some anthropology and genetics in there.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001288.html
Something like this.
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
quote:Yes I know of the controversy from both sides. But Greeks and Southern Europeans still carry these lineages, as I said. As you can see from this site below.
Originally posted by Mike111:
Here is why: Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches
Quote: Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterranean’s, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.
Turks, like ALL other White people come from Asia. There could not be a reasonable expectation that Turks would significantly differ from other White people. Just as Africans are genetically similar, so are White people.
Quote: Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
Da – Kurds and Armenians ARE Turks; and the Ottoman Empire spread Turkish genes all over North Africa and the Middle East. Furthermore, Turks are the dominant force in all of those areas today – including Arabia.
Quote - There is no HLA genetic trace of the so-called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
This one is particularly stupid: Arians (Aryans are Persian nobles), are NOT “THE” White people, they are a TRIBE of White people. They did NOT enter Europe, and ONLY these A-holes seem to think that they did. Arians entered India and Iran; The documentation of their presence there, cannot be argued, even by an A-hole Spaniard.
Quote: Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.
On the surface, this one looks okay. But it’s not: You know these A-holes are trying to make the case that they (Spaniards) are Iberians, because of the inclusion of Basques; who are a people who claim that they are different, but who have time-and-time again, been proven to be ordinary White people. And you just know that when they say Berber, they don't mean the "Real" ones (the Black ones), they mean the Europeans-with-a-tan that call themselves Berbers.
And BTW, that’s what this whole B.S. study is about, and why Knowledgeiskey718 posted it. It’s all about perpetuating the lie that the White people in Europe are native to the land. They are not native to the land, and never were.
quote:
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
You should throw some anthropology and genetics in there.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001288.html
Something like this.
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Debunker:
There's absolutely nothing "black" about Greeks. Any similarities between them and Ethiopians owes to the Ethiopians being substantially "white".
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
). Just fantastic.
quote:
Originally posted by Debunker:
This one's based on just 8 loci, but it still shows Greeks (Cypriots) to be fully Caucasoid:
'Caucasoid' as in 'mixed' like other populations of European extraction? Or would that be moreso?quote:Thanks for the comments. I am learning how to make these movies. I hope to get better over time.
Originally posted by meninarmer:
Great work as usual Dr. Winters.
You can count on my ordering your book.
One comment:
1 or 2 frames in the film sped by a little too quickly to read.
quote:Umm, mind telling me, or sharing with the forum, what 'white' lineages Ethiopians have? I see you ignored the West African lineage too, is that part of your plan? Is there some magical way your fantasy erases genetic lineages?
"There's absolutely nothing "black" about Greeks. Any similarities between them and Ethiopians owes to the Ethiopians being substantially "white"."
quote:You place far too much emphasis on single markers like Y-chromosomes and their frequencies. Geneticists don't agree with that approach:
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
Umm, mind telling me, or sharing with the forum, what 'white' lineages Ethiopians have? I see you ignored the West African lineage too, is that part of your plan? Is there some magical way your fantasy erases genetic lineages?
East Africans and the Ancient Egyptians have a body plan described as Extremely tropically adapted,i.e,"Super Negroid". West Africans are just tropically adapted no Extreme. East Africans retain extreme tropical adaptations, which proves they're not highly mixed and their features can't be attributed to outside influence. If you say it is, why are East Africans still extremely tropically adapted and their skin can be as extremely dark as well?
If 'Caucasoid' genes exist, explain to me why South African Lembas show no features from the Middle East though they have J haplogroup at high frequencies, so-called "Caucasoid" mixture? So to you, what makes a 'Caucasoid'? Is it Genetically or skeletally?
R1 is present at frequencies of 20% in North Cameroon. So hmm, if 'Caucasoid' genes exist where are they in these populations, who have more admixture than East Africans?
Tutsis have ABSOLUTELY no west Asian admixture, yet exhibit "so called" Caucasoid features". Why?
quote:Could you tell me the names of these 2 studies? I've been trying to find them before. There was also one that showed African-Americans in a diagram like in the top pic. Do you know about that one?
Originally posted by Debunker:
quote:The first one is from Cavalli-Sforza et al's book The History and Geography of Human Genes.
Originally posted by argiedude:
Could you tell me the names of these 2 studies? I've been trying to find them before. There was also one that showed African-Americans in a diagram like in the top pic. Do you know about that one?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin, but most were probably killed off by the Dorians and Hellenes.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. Of course such was not the case but of course they do have black African ancestry. Such ancestry is dated to Neolithic times. Just because one has black ancestry from thousands of years ago does not mean one is necessarily, that is looks black today.
And then you have Debunked who tries to flip the script and deny that such lineages from the Neolithic such as E3b are not African.
Clyde and Debunked two sides of one dirty coin. LOL
quote:Here's (the whoe video is) what non-Bantu speaking indigenous Africans look like.
the Ethiopians being substantially "white".
quote:You are so right about the Blacks of Carthage defeating the Romans. Finally you said something intelligent. Hannibal and his soildiers did have an ez job of defeating the Romans by using superior intelligence. These blacks did indeed "wackd them ded ez" as you said.
Originally posted by Ima Trollman:
heh heh
winter washington and dat ouger man
theez guyz old blax couldn't fite worth a **** huh
they alluz getting they azz kicked until they wiped out
total-ee x-terminated
whazzup wizzat
i thot they spozed 2 b mighty
but they mighty inferior
cawz savijez and barbers whackd them ded so e z
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Got to save this one.quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Just for the heck of itquote:Here's (the whoe video is) what non-Bantu speaking indigenous Africans look like.
the Ethiopians being substantially "white".
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Washington:
.
.
Xyyman. Robin Walker believes the person represented on the coin is Hannibal.
http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/100-54-car-73_Tunesia.Carthage..Hannibal.Coin..241.BC-181.BC.jpg
and I'd agree. Here is his post on the matter from African Classical History. From a real scholar.
From: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk [mailto:africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk] On Behalf Of Robin Walker
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:19 PM
To: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk
Subject: [africanclassicalhistory] On the Ethnicity of Hannibal of Carthage
Dear Group
Just as in America there is an attempt to rewrite the history of Tutankhamen to remove the Blacks from that history, a television documentary in Britain attempted to rewrite the history of Carthage to remove the Blacks from that history too.
First I present Channel Five's attempt to justify their dishonesty. Secondly, my answer is given below.
Robin
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Dear Sir
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Hannibal Of The Alps: Revealed. Hannibal Barca was indeed born in Carthage but his appearance and ethnic background have been an endless source of speculation amongst academic s over the years. There is only one contemporary image of Hannibal. It appears on a coin which is in the possession of the British Museum. However, even that coin is not 100% positively attributed to the period. (A good photographic image of it is available at http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-command-spain.htm). You will see from the coin that Hannibal has what appear to be Caucasian features. Similarly there is scant documentary reference to his appearance. The only ‘contemporary’ commentator wrote 100 years after Hannibal’s death and gave little regard to a physical description of the man other than his size and strength.
In the present day there is a huge ethnographic variation across the continent of Africa so to say Hannibal would have looked ‘African’ would we believe, have also been misleading. After all, Omar Sharif and Nelson Mandela are both ‘African’ but no-one would think of them as being ethnically related. From the information we have available it is possible that Hannibal’s mother may have been Spanish. This would lead us to believe that it is likely that Hannibal would have be en olive skinned. Hannibal’s army was also made up of a huge variety of races of men he picked up on his travels through Europe. All colours of skin would have been in his army.
Our overriding aim was to provide an accurate historical narrative which would relate the life of an extraordinary general. This we believe we achieved. At no time did we intend to mislead the viewers of this film into thinking Hannibal was anything other than Carthaginian. < /DIV>
Thank you for your interest in Five.
Yours sincerely
VIEWER ADVISOR
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Dear Sir
I am wholly unimpressed with your treatment of the Hannibal issue.
On Hannibal’s Surus
Sir Gavin De Beer, author of Hannibal: The Struggle for Power in the Mediterranean, wrote that:
Hannibal . . . rode the sole surviving elephant, an animal which may have found its way into history, for some years later Cato the Elder recorded that the elephant which fought most bravely in the Second Punic War was called Surus. This name means the Syrian, and Syria was where the Ptolemies had captured Indian elephants, some of which they must have given to Carthage. A bronze coin found in the valley of the Clanis (Chiana), on Hannibal’s route to Lake Trasimene, bears on the obverse a Negro’s head . . . and on the reverse an equally obvious Indian elephant. It is believed to have been minted at just about this time, 217 BC; and as Pyrrhus never came this way with his elephants, the coin probably bears a representation of Hannibal’s sole surviving elephant, the Indian Surus. (UK, Thames and Hudson, 1969, page 191)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Hannibal rode the sole surviving elephant
• That elephant was of Indian origin
• A coin exists with this Indian elephant depicted on it
On page 190 of this same book, Sir Gavin reproduces the coin.
(See Picture 1 below)
It was from the British Museum and the caption reads as follows:
Bronze coin from the Chiana valley, c.217 BC, showing (obverse) a Negro’s head, and (reverse) an Indian elephant, perhaps Hannibal’s Surus.
There are however three weaknesses in Sir Gavin De Beer’s account
• He is remarkably reluctant to identify the Negro
• He erroneously gave the impression that there is only one such coin
• He did not comment on the Phoenician or Punic character under the elephant
Elsewhere in the same book (pages 104-105) Sir Gavin takes to task those “modern commentators who were ignorant of the differences between the bush and the forest varieties of African elephants.” He continues:
< FONT face="Times New Roman">
Polybius’s account has been completely vindicated; the heights at the shoulder of the three elephants are approximately 7 feet 9 inches for the African forest elephant, 9 feet 6 inches for the Indian elephant, and 11 feet for the African bush elephant. The size of the Indian elephant made it possible to mount howdahs or ‘castles’ on its back, containing archers. The African forest elephant was too small . . . Indian and African elephants have been depicted on coins and mosaics, and the following differences between them are so clear-cut that they can easily be distinguished. The African forest elephant differs from the Indian in the following features: 1, the ear is enormous, whereas the Indian elephant’s ear is small; 2, the back has a concave dip between a high point over the shoulder and a nother high point over the hind quarters, whereas the back of the Indian elephant is an unbroken convex dome from front to rear; 3, the hind quarters are almost flat, whereas the Indian elephant’s hind quarters project backwards at a fairly sharp angle; 4, the head is carried high, while the Indian elephant carries its head low; 5, the forehead is flat, instead of showing the Indian elephant’s concave profile; 6, the trunk is marked by transverse ridges, instead of being smooth; 7, the tip of the trunk has two ‘fingers’ instead of only one as in the Indian elephant; 8, the upper part of the front edge of the hind leg is masked by a fold of skin forming a skirt, whereas the front edge of the hind leg of the Indian elephant is uncovered right up to the groin.
Keith Hart, a veterinarian, wrote a recent article for the journal Amphora: Volume II, entitled On Hannibal and Elephants. Part of the paper reads as follows:
Syria (now Iraq) once harbored the largest Asian subspecies (now extinct) hunted by the pharaohs 3,000 years ago. It is possible that the Ptolemies in Egypt were still able to obtain Syrian elephants in Hannibal’s time, and this may have been the original source of Hannibal’s one surviving animal. In any case, while the majority of Hannibal’s elephants were probably of North African origin, at least one may have been an Asian elephant. It is highly likely that the surviving elephant, emerging from the Apennines with the great Carthaginian on his back, was none other than Surus. Pliny the Elder tells us that he was not only the bravest of the elephants but that he also had one broken tusk. Scullard suggests that this eleph ant, which could have been a large, male, Asian elephant from Syria, was a gift from Ptolemy to his ally, the great Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca (174). Hannibal was Hamilcar’s son and may have formed a relationship with Surus from childhood . . . I visualize Hannibal riding Surus into Etruria at the head of a bedraggled but victorious army. Scullard sheds one final light on the scene by turning our attention to Etrurian bronze coins issued around 217 B.C. when Hannibal passed through (176). The coin s clearly depict an Asian elephant. As Scullard points out, the coins could have nothing to do with Pyrrhus and his Asian elephants, who failed to reach as far north as Rome. The only other reasonable explanation is that the coins depict Surus, as he passes through Etruria and disappears into the mists of history. (US, American Philological Association, Volume 2, Issue 2, Fall 2003, page 6)
From this data, it is impossible to confuse an Indian with either variety of the African elephant.
Conclusion One: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal has the wrong type of elephant depicted on it. The caption associated with your coin reads:
Coin from Cartago Nova AR quarter shekel, (1.58g) c. 215 BC, Male head (of Hannibal?) left. / African elephant walking to right, dotted border
(See Pictures 2a and 2b below)
On the Carthaginian Origin of the Coins
P. Raffaele Garrucci, author of Le Monete Dell’Italia Antica, reproduces 5 coins found in Italy. O n page 58, he wrote the following:
11-14. Museo Kircheriano. Testa di moro con anello all’orecchio volta a d. R. Elefante asiatico con la squilla al collo stante, volto a destra. I bronzi che portano questi tipi si distinguono fra loro per quattro diverse lettere alfabetiche . . .
15. Nella collezione Strozzi. Questa monetina ha i tipi predetti e per lettera distinctiva . . . (Rome, 1885)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Coins 11-14 are in the Museo Kircheriano
• Coin 15 is in a private collection
• The coins are distinguished by different Phoenician or Punic characters written on them (See Appendix)
• The elephants are described as “asiatico” - meaning Indian in origin
On plate T. LXXV of the same book are reproductions of these coins.
(See Picture 3 below)
Conclusion Two: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal does not contain any Phoenician or Punic characters. There is thus nothing to connect your coin with Carthage other than conjecture.
On the Peopling of Carthage
Stephane Gsell, author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, wrote that:
Plusieurs crânes, recueillis dans les cimetières, offrent des caractères propres aux nègres. (Volume IV, Franc e, Librairie Hachette, 1920, pages 173-4)
In the same book we read that:
On ne paraît pas avoir recontré jusqu’à present à Carthage, non plus qu’à Sidon, le type dit sémitique, fréquent chez les Juifs at les Arabes; face longue, en ovale régulier, nez mince at aquiline, crâne allongé et très renflé au-dessus de la nuque. (page 177)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Craniometric remains typical of Negroes have been found in Carthaginian cemeteries
• Craniometric remains typical of Semites have not been found in Carthaginian cemeteries
Eugène Pittard, an anthropology professor, reported in his Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History, that:
Other skeletal remains found in Punic Carthage and deposited in the Lavigerie Museum are from specimens discovered in private tombs that very likely belonged to the Carthaginian elite. The skulls are nearly all dolichocephalic. (UK, Kegan Paul reprint edition, 2003, page 335)
As an example:
Those who have visited the Lavigerie Museum at Carthage . . . will remember the magnificent sarcop hagus of the priestess of Tanit discovered by Père Delattre. This sarcophagus, the most highly decorated and artistic of those found, and whose outer image probably represents the goddess herself, must have been the coffin of a very great ecclesiastical personage. And the woman it contained exhibited Negroid characters. She was an African by race! (page 334)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Craniometric remains typical of the Carthaginian elites were dolichocephalic. Dolichocephaly (i.e. having a long skull) is generally typical of tropically-adapted populations
Conclusion Three: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal contains a Caucasian face. This is not consistent with the known anthropological facts.
In Closing
North Africa today cannot be used to discuss North Africa in ancient times. The Arabians who are there today conquered North Africa after 639 AD. The light-skinned Berbers are descended from the Vandal conquest of the fifth century AD and the Roman conquest of Carthage in 146 BC. As Carthage was founded in 814 BC it therefore contained no Arabians nor White Berbers.
In North Africa today Negro Berbers still exist such as the Harratin and the Chouchen. They are descended from the earliest inhabitants of North Africa. Their ancestors (called “Libyans”) were the numerically dominant population in Carthage from the elite down to the commoners.
The coin that you claim is Hannibal
• Has a face that is inconsistent with the k nown anthropological and historical facts
• Contains an elephant that is of the wrong type
• Lacks Phoenician or Punic writing
On the other hand I have shown that there are six different coins associated with Hannibal and all of them show him to be a Negro.
How did you manage to make a historical documentary and be totally oblivious of the key evidence?
Robin Walker
Appendix 1
It is not at all obvious that the people of Spain two thousand years ago were uniformly olive skinned nor were they uniformly of Caucasian appearance. The Annals of Human Genetics (Volume 67: Issue 4, July 2003) carried an interesting article entitled Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean by S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas. In the article, they revealed the following data:
Out of 23 different L sequences in Iberia, two were also found in NW Africa (as well as in sub-Saharan Africa), and 7 others were found in sub-Saharan Africa (in a dataset comprising 1,158 individuals from 20 populations; Graven et al. 1995, Pinto et al. 1996; Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1997; Rando et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999; Pereira et al. 2001; Brehm et al. 2002) but not in NW Africa. Treating the set of L sequences in Iberia as if it were a population reveals genetic distances from some W African populations, such as the Senegalese and Yoruba, that are slightly smaller than those between L sequences in Iberia and NW Africa. Thus, it may be the case that gene flow from NW Africa is not entirely responsible for the presence of L sequences in Iberia.
These authors are surprised by the presence of sub-Saharan genetic material in Iberia that they, of course, ca nnot comfortably explain. What this evidence implies, however, is that claiming Hannibal to have been Spanish of Half-Spanish is simply not a good enough get-out clause to remove his Negro ancestry.
Here's Robin's site. It's worth visiting if you haven't seen it:
http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=90
quote:Seems as if you're trying to start some "static" here on ES.
Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW. Anyone knows where Vin Diesel is at with Hannibal the movie? Seem there was a lot of static about why Vin was playing Hannibal since he was not black.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
quote:yup
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin, but most were probably killed off by the Dorians and Hellenes.
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:You are so right about the Blacks of Carthage defeating the Romans. Finally you said something intelligent. Hannibal and his soildiers did have an ez job of defeating the Romans by using superior intelligence. These blacks did indeed "wackd them ded ez" as you said.
Originally posted by Ima Trollman:
heh heh
winter washington and dat ouger man
theez guyz old blax couldn't fite worth a **** huh
they alluz getting they azz kicked until they wiped out
total-ee x-terminated
whazzup wizzat
i thot they spozed 2 b mighty
but they mighty inferior
cawz savijez and barbers whackd them ded so e z
.
quote:Fascinating. Great observations and investigative work.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Washington:
.
.
Xyyman. Robin Walker believes the person represented on the coin is Hannibal.
http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/100-54-car-73_Tunesia.Carthage..Hannibal.Coin..241.BC-181.BC.jpg
and I'd agree. Here is his post on the matter from African Classical History. From a real scholar.
From: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk [mailto:africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk] On Behalf Of Robin Walker
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:19 PM
To: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk
Subject: [africanclassicalhistory] On the Ethnicity of Hannibal of Carthage
Dear Group
Just as in America there is an attempt to rewrite the history of Tutankhamen to remove the Blacks from that history, a television documentary in Britain attempted to rewrite the history of Carthage to remove the Blacks from that history too.
First I present Channel Five's attempt to justify their dishonesty. Secondly, my answer is given below.
Robin
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Sir
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Hannibal Of The Alps: Revealed. Hannibal Barca was indeed born in Carthage but his appearance and ethnic background have been an endless source of speculation amongst academic s over the years. There is only one contemporary image of Hannibal. It appears on a coin which is in the possession of the British Museum. However, even that coin is not 100% positively attributed to the period. (A good photographic image of it is available at http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-command-spain.htm). You will see from the coin that Hannibal has what appear to be Caucasian features. Similarly there is scant documentary reference to his appearance. The only ‘contemporary’ commentator wrote 100 years after Hannibal’s death and gave little regard to a physical description of the man other than his size and strength.
In the present day there is a huge ethnographic variation across the continent of Africa so to say Hannibal would have looked ‘African’ would we believe, have also been misleading. After all, Omar Sharif and Nelson Mandela are both ‘African’ but no-one would think of them as being ethnically related. From the information we have available it is possible that Hannibal’s mother may have been Spanish. This would lead us to believe that it is likely that Hannibal would have be en olive skinned. Hannibal’s army was also made up of a huge variety of races of men he picked up on his travels through Europe. All colours of skin would have been in his army.
Our overriding aim was to provide an accurate historical narrative which would relate the life of an extraordinary general. This we believe we achieved. At no time did we intend to mislead the viewers of this film into thinking Hannibal was anything other than Carthaginian. < /DIV>
Thank you for your interest in Five.
Yours sincerely
VIEWER ADVISOR
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Dear Sir
I am wholly unimpressed with your treatment of the Hannibal issue.
On Hannibal’s Surus
Sir Gavin De Beer, author of Hannibal: The Struggle for Power in the Mediterranean, wrote that:
Hannibal . . . rode the sole surviving elephant, an animal which may have found its way into history, for some years later Cato the Elder recorded that the elephant which fought most bravely in the Second Punic War was called Surus. This name means the Syrian, and Syria was where the Ptolemies had captured Indian elephants, some of which they must have given to Carthage. A bronze coin found in the valley of the Clanis (Chiana), on Hannibal’s route to Lake Trasimene, bears on the obverse a Negro’s head . . . and on the reverse an equally obvious Indian elephant. It is believed to have been minted at just about this time, 217 BC; and as Pyrrhus never came this way with his elephants, the coin probably bears a representation of Hannibal’s sole surviving elephant, the Indian Surus. (UK, Thames and Hudson, 1969, page 191)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Hannibal rode the sole surviving elephant
• That elephant was of Indian origin
• A coin exists with this Indian elephant depicted on it
On page 190 of this same book, Sir Gavin reproduces the coin.
(See Picture 1 below)
It was from the British Museum and the caption reads as follows:
Bronze coin from the Chiana valley, c.217 BC, showing (obverse) a Negro’s head, and (reverse) an Indian elephant, perhaps Hannibal’s Surus.
There are however three weaknesses in Sir Gavin De Beer’s account
• He is remarkably reluctant to identify the Negro
• He erroneously gave the impression that there is only one such coin
• He did not comment on the Phoenician or Punic character under the elephant
Elsewhere in the same book (pages 104-105) Sir Gavin takes to task those “modern commentators who were ignorant of the differences between the bush and the forest varieties of African elephants.” He continues:
< FONT face="Times New Roman">
Polybius’s account has been completely vindicated; the heights at the shoulder of the three elephants are approximately 7 feet 9 inches for the African forest elephant, 9 feet 6 inches for the Indian elephant, and 11 feet for the African bush elephant. The size of the Indian elephant made it possible to mount howdahs or ‘castles’ on its back, containing archers. The African forest elephant was too small . . . Indian and African elephants have been depicted on coins and mosaics, and the following differences between them are so clear-cut that they can easily be distinguished. The African forest elephant differs from the Indian in the following features: 1, the ear is enormous, whereas the Indian elephant’s ear is small; 2, the back has a concave dip between a high point over the shoulder and a nother high point over the hind quarters, whereas the back of the Indian elephant is an unbroken convex dome from front to rear; 3, the hind quarters are almost flat, whereas the Indian elephant’s hind quarters project backwards at a fairly sharp angle; 4, the head is carried high, while the Indian elephant carries its head low; 5, the forehead is flat, instead of showing the Indian elephant’s concave profile; 6, the trunk is marked by transverse ridges, instead of being smooth; 7, the tip of the trunk has two ‘fingers’ instead of only one as in the Indian elephant; 8, the upper part of the front edge of the hind leg is masked by a fold of skin forming a skirt, whereas the front edge of the hind leg of the Indian elephant is uncovered right up to the groin.
Keith Hart, a veterinarian, wrote a recent article for the journal Amphora: Volume II, entitled On Hannibal and Elephants. Part of the paper reads as follows:
Syria (now Iraq) once harbored the largest Asian subspecies (now extinct) hunted by the pharaohs 3,000 years ago. It is possible that the Ptolemies in Egypt were still able to obtain Syrian elephants in Hannibal’s time, and this may have been the original source of Hannibal’s one surviving animal. In any case, while the majority of Hannibal’s elephants were probably of North African origin, at least one may have been an Asian elephant. It is highly likely that the surviving elephant, emerging from the Apennines with the great Carthaginian on his back, was none other than Surus. Pliny the Elder tells us that he was not only the bravest of the elephants but that he also had one broken tusk. Scullard suggests that this eleph ant, which could have been a large, male, Asian elephant from Syria, was a gift from Ptolemy to his ally, the great Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca (174). Hannibal was Hamilcar’s son and may have formed a relationship with Surus from childhood . . . I visualize Hannibal riding Surus into Etruria at the head of a bedraggled but victorious army. Scullard sheds one final light on the scene by turning our attention to Etrurian bronze coins issued around 217 B.C. when Hannibal passed through (176). The coin s clearly depict an Asian elephant. As Scullard points out, the coins could have nothing to do with Pyrrhus and his Asian elephants, who failed to reach as far north as Rome. The only other reasonable explanation is that the coins depict Surus, as he passes through Etruria and disappears into the mists of history. (US, American Philological Association, Volume 2, Issue 2, Fall 2003, page 6)
From this data, it is impossible to confuse an Indian with either variety of the African elephant.
Conclusion One: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal has the wrong type of elephant depicted on it. The caption associated with your coin reads:
Coin from Cartago Nova AR quarter shekel, (1.58g) c. 215 BC, Male head (of Hannibal?) left. / African elephant walking to right, dotted border
(See Pictures 2a and 2b below)
On the Carthaginian Origin of the Coins
P. Raffaele Garrucci, author of Le Monete Dell’Italia Antica, reproduces 5 coins found in Italy. O n page 58, he wrote the following:
11-14. Museo Kircheriano. Testa di moro con anello all’orecchio volta a d. R. Elefante asiatico con la squilla al collo stante, volto a destra. I bronzi che portano questi tipi si distinguono fra loro per quattro diverse lettere alfabetiche . . .
15. Nella collezione Strozzi. Questa monetina ha i tipi predetti e per lettera distinctiva . . . (Rome, 1885)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Coins 11-14 are in the Museo Kircheriano
• Coin 15 is in a private collection
• The coins are distinguished by different Phoenician or Punic characters written on them (See Appendix)
• The elephants are described as “asiatico” - meaning Indian in origin
On plate T. LXXV of the same book are reproductions of these coins.
(See Picture 3 below)
Conclusion Two: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal does not contain any Phoenician or Punic characters. There is thus nothing to connect your coin with Carthage other than conjecture.
On the Peopling of Carthage
Stephane Gsell, author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, wrote that:
Plusieurs crânes, recueillis dans les cimetières, offrent des caractères propres aux nègres. (Volume IV, Franc e, Librairie Hachette, 1920, pages 173-4)
In the same book we read that:
On ne paraît pas avoir recontré jusqu’à present à Carthage, non plus qu’à Sidon, le type dit sémitique, fréquent chez les Juifs at les Arabes; face longue, en ovale régulier, nez mince at aquiline, crâne allongé et très renflé au-dessus de la nuque. (page 177)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Craniometric remains typical of Negroes have been found in Carthaginian cemeteries
• Craniometric remains typical of Semites have not been found in Carthaginian cemeteries
Eugène Pittard, an anthropology professor, reported in his Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History, that:
Other skeletal remains found in Punic Carthage and deposited in the Lavigerie Museum are from specimens discovered in private tombs that very likely belonged to the Carthaginian elite. The skulls are nearly all dolichocephalic. (UK, Kegan Paul reprint edition, 2003, page 335)
As an example:
Those who have visited the Lavigerie Museum at Carthage . . . will remember the magnificent sarcop hagus of the priestess of Tanit discovered by Père Delattre. This sarcophagus, the most highly decorated and artistic of those found, and whose outer image probably represents the goddess herself, must have been the coffin of a very great ecclesiastical personage. And the woman it contained exhibited Negroid characters. She was an African by race! (page 334)
From this data, we are specifically told that:
• Craniometric remains typical of the Carthaginian elites were dolichocephalic. Dolichocephaly (i.e. having a long skull) is generally typical of tropically-adapted populations
Conclusion Three: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal contains a Caucasian face. This is not consistent with the known anthropological facts.
In Closing
North Africa today cannot be used to discuss North Africa in ancient times. The Arabians who are there today conquered North Africa after 639 AD. The light-skinned Berbers are descended from the Vandal conquest of the fifth century AD and the Roman conquest of Carthage in 146 BC. As Carthage was founded in 814 BC it therefore contained no Arabians nor White Berbers.
In North Africa today Negro Berbers still exist such as the Harratin and the Chouchen. They are descended from the earliest inhabitants of North Africa. Their ancestors (called “Libyans”) were the numerically dominant population in Carthage from the elite down to the commoners.
The coin that you claim is Hannibal
• Has a face that is inconsistent with the k nown anthropological and historical facts
• Contains an elephant that is of the wrong type
• Lacks Phoenician or Punic writing
On the other hand I have shown that there are six different coins associated with Hannibal and all of them show him to be a Negro.
How did you manage to make a historical documentary and be totally oblivious of the key evidence?
Robin Walker
Appendix 1
It is not at all obvious that the people of Spain two thousand years ago were uniformly olive skinned nor were they uniformly of Caucasian appearance. The Annals of Human Genetics (Volume 67: Issue 4, July 2003) carried an interesting article entitled Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean by S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas. In the article, they revealed the following data:
Out of 23 different L sequences in Iberia, two were also found in NW Africa (as well as in sub-Saharan Africa), and 7 others were found in sub-Saharan Africa (in a dataset comprising 1,158 individuals from 20 populations; Graven et al. 1995, Pinto et al. 1996; Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1997; Rando et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999; Pereira et al. 2001; Brehm et al. 2002) but not in NW Africa. Treating the set of L sequences in Iberia as if it were a population reveals genetic distances from some W African populations, such as the Senegalese and Yoruba, that are slightly smaller than those between L sequences in Iberia and NW Africa. Thus, it may be the case that gene flow from NW Africa is not entirely responsible for the presence of L sequences in Iberia.
These authors are surprised by the presence of sub-Saharan genetic material in Iberia that they, of course, ca nnot comfortably explain. What this evidence implies, however, is that claiming Hannibal to have been Spanish of Half-Spanish is simply not a good enough get-out clause to remove his Negro ancestry.
Here's Robin's site. It's worth visiting if you haven't seen it:
http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=90
quote:Mary does this to everybody it seems....
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin,
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. LOL
quote:This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
quote:This is not the same view as Bernal He believes these people were Jews.
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The Image of the Black in Western Art , vol. 1,
from the Pharaohs to the Fall of the Roman
Empire, Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University
Press, 1976
Fig. 142
Fig. 147
Fig. 203
Fig. 204
.
quote:^This means YOU.
Originally posted by akoben08:
quote:Mary does this to everybody it seems....
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin,
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
Greek Art
lol just kidding.
quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
Heracles and Busiris King of the Delta
Caeretan black-figure hydria, Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum, ANSA IV 3576.
Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische Vasenmalerei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasenbilder (Miinchen, 1904), PI. 51.
Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Heracles. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision.
A group of Egyptians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards.
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant who is crushing evildoers beneath his feet, strangling and breaking the necks of evildoers with his barehands, as well as by trapping their throats between his elbow and bicep region, in his left hand he is holding a man in the air by his left ankle using the super-human might of his left arm, and finally the rest of the evildoers are fleeing from the Greek Herakles in terror. The story has to do with Herakles putting a stop to human sacrifices which were instituted by an evil group of cultist under the direction of King Busiris of Egypt. Heracles allowed them to attempt to use him as a sacrifice, then at the right moment he broke his bonds, slaying 1000 cultists including the king. The story resembles that told of Samson. The point to be emphasized here is that the Greek Herakles was originally thought of as a black man by the ancient Greek peoples before his features were altered by the later Eurocentric influence centuries later.
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites. This same Herakles is also shown slaying fair skinned Greeks, and Europeans, the difference between these opponents and Herakles the black man leaves know room for doubt concerning who is of what race.
Martin Bernall, author of Black Athena, vol. 1, pages 476- 477 has this to say about this particular hydria; ". . . . . While both point out that Bousiris has black attendants and that Bousiris himself is portrayed as one on another vase, neither Boardman nor Snowden (1970, p.159 ) mentions the fact that the 'Greek hero Herakles' is depicted as a curly-haired African Black. This is something that the Aryan Model is completely unable to handle. I would like to add that I have seen photo-prints of this vase myself therefore I know Martin Bernall is telling the truth! Finally apparently it isn't mentioned that an equal amount of Bousiris' attendants on this vase are obviously European. [Source]
.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:
^ IIRC, I've seen another version of this image in which Hercules is given medium brown as opposed to black skin. The Egyptians still had black skin though.
Are there any other ancient Greek depictions of ancient Egyptians? The only other image I know of is this:
Closeup:
[/QB]
quote:I was talking about what the ancients had to say about the original inhabitants. I'll check the book to make sure though because I haven't read it in a while.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:This is not the same view as Bernal He believes these people were Jews.
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
I have not read the linguistics book--I may buy it when it cost less. Interestingly, I have not seen any reviews of the book have you?
.
quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
quote:Evergreen Writes:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
BLACKS IN ANCIENT GREECE
quote:Greece was by definition multi-cultural as it spanned 3 continents and many different nationalities and ethnicities. Most of Greece's expansive Empire lay OUTSIDE of Europe, which again means MOST people of ancient Greece WERE NOT Greeks. The only aspect of Greece was primarily Greek were the various ruling dynasties.
Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Evergreen Writes:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
BLACKS IN ANCIENT GREECE
Eurocentrists often use images of Egyptians with non-stereotypical African phenotype to make the case that AE was a "multi-cultural" society. These images likewise demonstrate that ancient Greece was "multi-cultural".
quote:lotta cool ass pictures..but uh..where are they from? Carthage or something?
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
To add to those:
quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The Image of the Black in Western Art , vol. 1,
from the Pharaohs to the Fall of the Roman
Empire, Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University
Press, 1976
Fig. 142
Fig. 147
Fig. 203
Fig. 204
.
quote:lotta cool ass pictures..but uh..where are they from? Carthage or something?
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
To add to those:
quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
The Image of the Black in Western Art , vol. 1,
from the Pharaohs to the Fall of the Roman
Empire, Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University
Press, 1976
Fig. 142
Fig. 147
Fig. 203
Fig. 204
.
quote:Lol, ummmmm......Greece.
lotta cool ass pictures..but uh..where are they from? Carthage or something?
quote:
Originally posted by Hri:
^ hey big bruv. Long time no speak, check this out:
http://www.aegyptopedia.com
YH.
quote:^ hey alTakruri. Long time no speak, check this out:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Well if you post the link to the thread you pulled
the images I'm sure the provenances are given there.
quote:Yea i was bout to say...lol..
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
^Yes - thought so too, but aren't 203 & 147 Agean and Greek?
Not sure about the top one though. Looks Greek/Roman (would bet on Greek)
quote:INFO WARS YOU BASTARD!!!
Originally posted by xyyman:
Overall very good YH. Where do you go from here?
quote:This is like the second time, in quick successions, you're tying to get his attention. My god, you're like a child or a little puppy. You already brought him your bone; why not wait patiently for him to reply/pat you on the head? LOLOLOL
Originally posted by Hri:
quote:^ hey alTakruri. Long time no speak, check this out:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Well if you post the link to the thread you pulled
the images I'm sure the provenances are given there.
http://www.aegyptopedia.com
YH.
quote:
Originally posted by Hri:
^ hey big bruv. Long time no speak, check this out:
http://www.aegyptopedia.com
YH.
quote:In the rush of setting up shop I didn't realise there was a more "detailed" permissions section where there is more flexibility and I've actually now set it up so even an "anonymous" user[ whois registered at Wikidot.com] can do pretty much anything on the site.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Uh hum, that's the way you do it. You get your locked
pages on the ol' Wiki. Way to go nephew. And homage
to Tyro too. I'd a nevah thunk ...
quote:
Originally posted by Hri:
^ hey big bruv. Long time no speak, check this out:
http://www.aegyptopedia.com
YH.
quote:You're mostly right.
Originally posted by akoben:
quote:This is like the second time, in quick successions, you're tying to get his attention. My god, you're like a child or a little puppy. You already brought him your bone; why not wait patiently for him to reply/pat you on the head? LOLOLOL
Originally posted by Hri:
quote:^ hey alTakruri. Long time no speak, check this out:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Well if you post the link to the thread you pulled
the images I'm sure the provenances are given there.
http://www.aegyptopedia.com
YH.
quote:I copied and pasted, the post fully intact, and someone indeed might have queried or answered query if it weren't for Woof-Weef's (Vida's) deliberate detracting..
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Well if you post the link to the thread you pulled
the images I'm sure the provenances are given there.
quote:This is probably because of M1 and U6 mitochondrial being classified as Eurasian. This has been discussed very thoroughly on this board. You might want to check them out.
Originally posted by Debunker:
quote:You place far too much emphasis on single markers like Y-chromosomes and their frequencies. Geneticists don't agree with that approach:
Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
Umm, mind telling me, or sharing with the forum, what 'white' lineages Ethiopians have? I see you ignored the West African lineage too, is that part of your plan? Is there some magical way your fantasy erases genetic lineages?
East Africans and the Ancient Egyptians have a body plan described as Extremely tropically adapted,i.e,"Super Negroid". West Africans are just tropically adapted no Extreme. East Africans retain extreme tropical adaptations, which proves they're not highly mixed and their features can't be attributed to outside influence. If you say it is, why are East Africans still extremely tropically adapted and their skin can be as extremely dark as well?
If 'Caucasoid' genes exist, explain to me why South African Lembas show no features from the Middle East though they have J haplogroup at high frequencies, so-called "Caucasoid" mixture? So to you, what makes a 'Caucasoid'? Is it Genetically or skeletally?
R1 is present at frequencies of 20% in North Cameroon. So hmm, if 'Caucasoid' genes exist where are they in these populations, who have more admixture than East Africans?
Tutsis have ABSOLUTELY no west Asian admixture, yet exhibit "so called" Caucasoid features". Why?
"...the Y chromosome...is particularly influenced by drift. [...] Conclusions about populations on the basis of this single locus must therefore be made with caution."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1287948
" 'Genes on the mitochondrial genome or the Y chromosome don't unambiguously allow you to infer population history,' notes Andrew G. Clark, a biology professor at Pennsylvania State University. 'That's because there's a lot of stochasticity, a lot of chance, that goes on in sampling of those genomes from generation to generation...."
http://www.orientalthane.com/science/news_1.htm
"Earlier we emphasized the importance of using a large number of loci in the study of human evolution. This is because...the evolution of a single gene (or mtDNA) is subject to large stochastic errors."
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/5/927
Today, geneticists are moving steadily away from uniparental markers and toward structure analysis, which uses 100s, 1000s, even 10,000s of markers for "inferring the presence of distinct populations, assigning individuals to populations, studying hybrid zones, identifying migrants and admixed individuals, and estimating population allele frequencies in situations where many individuals are migrants or admixed."
Using this vastly superior approach, they've found only negligible Sub-Saharan African influences in Europeans, but significant Western Eurasian influences in many East Africans.
Red = Sub-Saharan African
Yellow = Western Eurasian
Blue = Eastern Eurasian
Orange = Sub-Saharan African
Blue = Western Eurasian
Pink = Eastern Eurasian
Green = Austro-Melanesian
Purple = Native American
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a 'Black' cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans."
A (blue) = Western Eurasian
B (red) = Austro-Melanesian
C (green) = Sub-Saharan African
D (yellow) = Eastern Eurasian
quote:LMAO!!!@JEWMANGI!!!!!!!
Originally posted by argyle104:
alTakruri aka jewmangi the imitation jew wrote:
quote:Might be the only sensible comment put forward by you, so far that I've seen.
This is probably because of M1 and U6 mitochondrial being classified as Eurasian. This has been discussed very thoroughly on this board. You might want to check them out.
Also, Africa and Eurasia are pseudo political borders so even if a population left African and went into the Levant then BACK into Africa that doesn't say much about their *appearance/morphology* really changing significantly
quote:The Greeks may have borrowed aspects from the Phoenicians and the Ancient Egyptians but in all actuality the Greeks would later rise and impact Egypt and the Phoenicians themselves by not only conquering but DOMINATING and having Hellenic Culture become the everyday norm. The Egyptians would replace their native tounge with Greek and write their language in a Greek Derived script. The Greeks were a brilliant people they didn't steal anything. They were also Eurocentric and saw themselves as white people...No Black Athena, No Black Geeks...its all lies Just as true as a White Egypt...........
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
Puppy posters be advised to read past threads before commenting.
quote:^This means YOU.
Originally posted by akoben08:
quote:Mary does this to everybody it seems....
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin,
Originally posted by Djehuti:
This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
Greek Art
They look like 'mulattos'
Greeks are European, modern Greece is European, and ancient Greece was European, but major components of ancient Aegian arts (math, science, language), culture, and ancestry were foreign.
While your pictures are cute, modern Greeks are not a genetic nor necissarily a physical replica of ancient Greeks - the more Northerly Turkish, Albanian, Vlach, Slavic, Visigoth, and Bulgar, incursions/intrusions into the Balkan region inevitably left some genetic impact.
Non-European influences
Linguistically and Script:
- They borrowed their alphabet from the Phoenicians and a lot of their words from Kemet - there are a list of words that have survived to this day in English that are Kemetian in origin, resulting from the Roman (which borrowed from Greece) colonization of Europe.
Genetically:- Their most common lineage originated in East "sub-Saharan" Africa and in Greece dates back to the Neolithic.
- The Neo-lithic or New Stone-Age refers to the advent of farming cultures (which both precede and lay the foundations for Bronze Age cultures and 'Civilization' in general).
[*]Greeks also have Benin Sickle Cell that dates to around this time:
(^Which by the way - as you probably know - a few AE Phaorohs had as well.)
In fact, here are citations from a few scientific studies - just read the bolded:
*
"The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the
Middle East into Europe is also represented in
the NRY (Y chromosomal) data, although suggesting a relatively
localized area of impact. As mentioned before in
relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic
population carrying Group III lineages with the
M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from
sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant
(Fig. 3g). The Levantine population of farmers
that dispersed into Europe during and after the
Neolithic carried these African Group III M35}
M215 lineages, together with a cluster of (West Asian) Group
VI lineages characterized by M172 and M201
mutations (Fig. 3h).
" - Underhill et al 2001, Phylogeny of Y chromosome Binary Haplotypes and the Origins of Modern Human Populations [link]
*
In greater detail (read the bolded) on cranial affinities:
*
"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely [cranially] related to the modern inhabitants although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to sub-Saharan Africa."
"Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This suggests that there may have been a sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians — the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic"
"If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. At the same time, the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that, while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 32-33, 47-48), but this is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared." - Brace et al 2005
*
"One can identify Negroid traits appearing in Natufian latest hunters and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from nubia." - Larry Angel
*
Response to bernal and Snowden
SOY Keita
Arethusa
26 (1993) pg 329
"I was a student of Larry Angel and am in some postion to comment on his views, which I know from conversation, the literature and personal correspondnce."
"Angel also found evidence for a "black" (if such exists) genetic influence in neolithic and later Aegean populations. Racialists models, which imply non-overlapping gene pools, are clearly negated by Angel's work."
quote:
Originally posted by Myra Wysinger:
Heracles and Busiris King of the Delta
Caeretan black-figure hydria, Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum, ANSA IV 3576.
Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische Vasenmalerei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasenbilder (Miinchen, 1904), PI. 51.
Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Heracles. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision.
A group of Egyptians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards.
By Samuel David Ewing
This art reveals the Greek Herakles as an enormously muscled black African giant who is crushing evildoers beneath his feet, strangling and breaking the necks of evildoers with his barehands, as well as by trapping their throats between his elbow and bicep region, in his left hand he is holding a man in the air by his left ankle using the super-human might of his left arm, and finally the rest of the evildoers are fleeing from the Greek Herakles in terror. The story has to do with Herakles putting a stop to human sacrifices which were instituted by an evil group of cultist under the direction of King Busiris of Egypt. Heracles allowed them to attempt to use him as a sacrifice, then at the right moment he broke his bonds, slaying 1000 cultists including the king. The story resembles that told of Samson. The point to be emphasized here is that the Greek Herakles was originally thought of as a black man by the ancient Greek peoples before his features were altered by the later Eurocentric influence centuries later.
The Greek Heracles as a black man on this hydria is shown slaying black men (Egyptians ) who have features like himself, such as black skin, flat nose, flaring nostrils, large lips, and the wooly textured hair of Hamites. This same Herakles is also shown slaying fair skinned Greeks, and Europeans, the difference between these opponents and Herakles the black man leaves know room for doubt concerning who is of what race.
Martin Bernall, author of Black Athena, vol. 1, pages 476- 477 has this to say about this particular hydria; ". . . . . While both point out that Bousiris has black attendants and that Bousiris himself is portrayed as one on another vase, neither Boardman nor Snowden (1970, p.159 ) mentions the fact that the 'Greek hero Herakles' is depicted as a curly-haired African Black. This is something that the Aryan Model is completely unable to handle. I would like to add that I have seen photo-prints of this vase myself therefore I know Martin Bernall is telling the truth! Finally apparently it isn't mentioned that an equal amount of Bousiris' attendants on this vase are obviously European. [Source]
.quote:[/QB]
Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:
^ IIRC, I've seen another version of this image in which Hercules is given medium brown as opposed to black skin. The Egyptians still had black skin though.
Are there any other ancient Greek depictions of ancient Egyptians? The only other image I know of is this:
Closeup:
) with a totally Greek Girl he was dating (I taught him well ) back in 2004:
quote:NONE. Because there are no races. But I would say they look like they could come from a Caribbean "hispanic" country. I.e Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic.
Somebody tell me what "race" is that handsome young man and what "race" is that beautiful young chick???
quote:Damn your whole family is self hating and loves whitey. Typical Nigerian smh shame shame
Originally posted by Heru-(London's Finest):
Ah.... all this talk about what Greeks are or are-not. Why don't we just put up some pics shall we???
Here's a pic of my brother-in-law (my protege who is now a professional Computer Scientist
^^ Somebody tell me what "race" is that handsome young man and what "race" is that beautiful young chick???
Please bear in mind that that young man's father is AS BLACK AS NIGHT.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
