Title of one of Dr Ben's earliest works (originally written in Spanish in Puerto Rico). This thread is only for those who own the book, have it readily at hand, and thus able to supply fully cited quotes as reference to any comments posted.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
Maybe you should take it to a jewish board, this is "egyptsearch" not "jewishsearch".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I broached this thread to divert extraneous discussion about the book and its author from the thread on Ashkenazi genetics.
Now take and remember your criticism the next time you want to post. This is "egyptsearch" not "opinionatedexpatriatesomalisearch."
Posted by ArabianArab (Member # 15626) on :
'Black Jew' is oxymoron.Go and read what the Talmud says of blacks.
Posted by Wolofi (Member # 14892) on :
Yes black Jews are extremely delusional and none sensical
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
Shalom Aleichem al-Takruri,
I am glad that I left EgyptSearch for a time because it has allowed me time to reflect over a bunch of information and analyze in peace without the constant bickering.
You were right in what you wrote in your original website. I hope you saved the pages. I certainly did.
We must use logic!!!
The Canaanites, Hebrews, Phoenicians had a western coastal access to the Mediterreanean Sea. They sent out boats to reach North Africa and Southern Europe. They shared a lot of culture with the other ethnic groups of this region.
The Ancient Egyptians were Black people whose culture was similar to that of Africans in other areas. They walked around practically naked.
Most Jews today are either White or Near White.
Former Chief Sephardic Rabbi Yitzhak Nissim
The Beta Israel probably are descendeded from Temani Yehudim plus Cushites.
Most other groups Black groups are probably descended from some type of race mixing between Jews and Blacks. Maybe you don't like it, but look at the history of Sephardic Black Jews.
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
The Lemba are mixed with Temanim and in West.
The Igbo are not the only Jews in West Africa and Nigeria's Igboland is far from the northern tip of Africa. Most like a Jew slept with a Black woman and had mulatto kids and passed on religion and culture. That's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It says plainly Jews entered West Africa going south and shows pictures of the Iddao Ishak Tuaregs.
But, all this is from mixing an outside Israelite culture onto and African base.
The Igbo are not the only West African Jews.
You must also include some Sahelians who converted to Islam and any part-Berber group since the original religion of the Berbers was the origianl Israelite religion.
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
I tried to tell you before. Ismael Diadie Haidara wrote a book on the Jews of Timbuktu in FRENCH!!!!
I read the book!
LES JUIFS A TOMBOUCTOU
Du même auteur, que l'Espagne musulmane et l'Afrique subsaharienne, cet ouvrage est une recherche historique à partir des sources écrites sur la présence des juifs à Tombouctou au XIXe siècle.
TIMBUKTU, Mali — Ismaël Diadié Haïdara held a treasure in his slender fingers that has somehow endured through 11 generations — a square of battered leather enclosing a history of the two branches of his family, one side reaching back to the Visigoths in Spain and the other to the ancient origins of the Songhai emperors who ruled this city at its zenith.
Wikipedia shows this page with a Caucasoid Jewish Rabbi, but not the Sahelian offspring of the Sephardic Jews from Spain.
A lot of the info is missing and has been wiped off French language boards.
Well, I will tell you this the cover of the "Juifs a Tombouctou" book was a tan color with an Arabic manuscript front and back. The Jews in Timbuktu wrote in and were mentioned in Arabic language texts. I'll save the rest of the info for myself.
But, your website was right all along. It's not just the Igbo.
----------------------- What is more important is Africans in the New World were freed from slavery LIKE LIKE LIKE the Jews.
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Maybe you should take it to a jewish board, this is "egyptsearch" not "jewishsearch".
Evergreen Writes:
The comment above demonstrates a profound ignorance about ancient NE African civilization. The ancient "Jews" were a branch of the ancient Canaanites. The ancient Canaanites in turn were subjects of the Ancient Egyptians and contained a genetic affinity with them as well.
The writing system we now use is based upon the evolution of Ancient Egyptian writing to Canaanite writing to the Latin Alphabet, etc. The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: [QUOTE]The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Evergreen Posts:
We The Black Jews
By Y. ben-Jochannan
"Since Judaism is the first step from the Nile Valley Africans' theosophical (spiritual) base of the so-called "Three Revealed Religions - Judaism, Judaeo-Christianity, and Judaeo-Christianity-Islam," it is only rational to assume that they too must fall in line."
Evergreen Writes:
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
What I find insulting and appalling is how many of you insult our intelligence with diatribe of this kind over and over again spewing forth nonsensical stuff that is designed to confuse people.
First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning. What we have is just geograhical adaptations of various populations.
Hebrews had intermediate adaptions that fit with their West Asian indigenous physiology but being intermediate meant there was enough diversity that some of the members would appear to us as being part of the Black or White social group. The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. However, their origins are not tropical like Africans and though mixed with European descent they were still a recognizable group in Europe well into the renaissance period. Apparently there was enough difference between Jews and Italians that for centuries we can find evidence of Jewish ghettos which implies ethnic segregation similar to what we see in American history.
Essentially we have a geographic origin that would logically result in a diverse population containing so called "Black" members in a social context that is relative to Western paradigms. The fallacy is that it has to be all one or the other. This is a problem people get into from America is the idea that there were discrete boundaries between races in ancient times. Jim Crowe has in someways made us think that in ancient times Whites lived only in one place and Blacks only in another. This is not at all true. In fact, over a lifetime people were far more mobile in the past than what we are use to, not being tied down to careers, economics and boundaries.
Outside of Jewish tradition, the origins of Hebrews makes little sense. In fact, the more I look at the skeletal and genetic evidence, the flood myth doesn't at all seem so mythological.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
To a certain extent this has some validity. I see it exemplified maybe in the "ransom" prophecy
quote: For I am the LORD thy God, The Holy One of Yisra'el, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Kush and S*ba' for thee.
and the "equals" prophecy.
quote: Are ye not as the b*nei Kushiyyiym unto Me, O b*nei Yisra'el? oracles the ETERNAL. Have not I brought up Yisra'el out of the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor, and 'Aram from Kir?
But generally speaking various nations have their own prophecies alotted to them. Not that there is not, but I can't recall a prophecy that blankets all the various peoples of Africa.
For the Israelites prophecy is the exact words of the deity uttered through the mouth of a mortal of the deity's choosing. Hence prophecy is not limited to forseeing the future.
In the ransom prophecy we see Israel only has three possible nations/peoples as worthy as they deem themselves: Egypt, Kush, and S*ba'.
To an extorter or kidnapper or whatever, the ransom is as the same value as the hostage. To whit the equals prophecy where Kushites and Israelites are equated.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: [QUOTE]The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Evergreen Posts:
We The Black Jews
By Y. ben-Jochannan
"Since Judaism is the first step from the Nile Valley Africans' theosophical (spiritual) base of the so-called "Three Revealed Religions - Judaism, Judaeo-Christianity, and Judaeo-Christianity-Islam," it is only rational to assume that they too must fall in line."
Evergreen Writes:
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning.
Evergreen Writes:
Relativism. Using this approach there would be no such thing as a "thing" since all things vary based upon forms of substance (solids, liquids, gases, etc.).
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time.
Evergreen Writes:
Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But generally speaking various nations have their own prophecies alotted to them. Not that there is not, but I can't recall a prophecy that blankets all the various peoples of Africa.
Evergreen Writes:
Given the time-depth under review (pre-Judaic historical) there were few literate peoples for the modeling of a valid comparison outside of the ancient Egyptians. My assumption is that the ancient Egyptian worldview is broadly representative of the generalized African worldview of the time.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
This is a true insult to intelligence. There were no Ashkenazim in the first imperial Roman era. Mishnah was composed in that epoch and says Israel was the colour of boxwood or of honey. Out in the streets the common Roman thought Judaeans were a kind of Ethiopian.
quote: The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus
and one Greco-Latin author flat out ranked Judaeans as Egyptian.
quote: One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
Unless the Ethiopians and Egyptians are too examples of your unmixed whites, the idea of "white Jews" before north and northeast Mediterraneans (and even Danube Europeans) nationalized as Jews is an idea with very little evidence to back it up. I doubt a white people who are so very in love with their skin colour would have leprosy laws worded the way they are in the Five Books of Moses.
Now as for the white jew black jew dichotomy that's terminology first put into place by the Jews of India.
And to bring things back on topic (Dr. Ben's book) that's something written about in the object of the subject header announcing the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. .
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: For the Israelites prophecy is the exact words of the deity uttered through the mouth of a mortal of the deity's choosing.
Evergreen Writes:
This makes sense. Western Man is left-brain oriented by nature and hence literalistic, materialistic and objective. The Canaanites, like the later Greeks were both students of the ancient African legacy. Yet much of this legacy was symbolic and not simply open to literal or exact interpretation. With the decline of the Egyptian priesthood man fell into a dark-age which we have yet to fully recover from.
"For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath."
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: What I find insulting and appalling is how many of you insult our intelligence with diatribe of this kind over and over again spewing forth nonsensical stuff that is designed to confuse people.
First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning.
For me this is always the 'event horizon' of your rhetoric.
The point at which you cease to make any sense.
You say there is no such thing as Black and White as ethnic references.
This is, of course, and ideological stance, and a bald faced lie, since these ancient social references do exist.
The fact that you do not like them -- has no bearing -- on their existence.
Only a child pretends things don't exist, because they don't like them.
You then try to find and excuse for your lie, by way of and incoherent babblement which goes like this:
Black and White are not scientific, and objective, in the social sense, which so makes them, non-existent.
But of course all social constructs are subjective and relative, so it is useless to beg for objective absolutist definitions of 'terms which you don't like'.
Anyone debunking you only has to demand the same of any term you happen to like..... and the root fallacy is easily exposed.
Again, that's a childs approach to debating.
This childish hypocrisy you traffic in is easily outed whenever we ask you for you scientific objective and absolutist definition of "Jew".
You never answer this question, because *you don't have one.*
Because there isn't one, and you know it.
And it is at this point, that your entire ideology falls apart.
When made to face this fact, you then resort to troll noises. [anything to take us away from the question you won't answer...and without this answer your ideology can *never make sense*].
Proof of this - is in your *failure* to address the topic: JEWISH RACE MYTH.
Instead you attempt to deflect this into and attack on the notion of Blackness.
ps -
It's funny to read your post along with AlTakruri's and Evergreens.
"Two men and a baby"
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Are there any "unmixed people"? If not, how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
You will get no answer.
Amr1. Salassin. {jamie, of the 1000 alias'] Osirion
Brief list of advocates of of the notion of classification: 'mixed' on ES, yet who cannot answer this simple question with regards to the their ideology.
Most people who believe in the existence of Jews can at least tell you who *isn't* Jewish. Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Waste of time - they were neither white nor black, terms void of usefulness.
West Asian is all you have to say.
There are Africans, European, East Asians and West Asians, Polynesian people, Australians and Eskimo.
White and Black make no sense!
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
There are Africans, European, East Asians and West Asians, Polynesian people, Australians and Eskimo.
White and Black make no sense!
Evergreen Writes:
African, European, East Asian, West Asian, Polynesian, Australian and Eskimo are all terms created by Whites. Why are these terms any more valid than Black or White?
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote: Evergreen Writes:
Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"? [/QB]
You are not stupid so don't play childish games. Discrete calculus allows for fuzzy logic with thresholds. Our minds are built on this type of thinking - fuzzy logic. We need to think in discrete ways and as a result we naturally catergorize things even though they are not exactly uniform. We use social constructs to define these thresholds on what is and is not considered mixed. In fact I completely agree with you and as such you cannot define discete paradigms that have a uniform concept of White and Black. It cannot exist without fuzzy logic since no one has a homogenous lineage when considering population geneflow.
This is what bothers me about many arguments made here at ES. First the premise that racial constructs do not exist such as Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid but the concept of White and Black is fine? This is a blatant double standard. This is why I try to stick to geographical definitions of people rather than trying to fall back to the beggardly constructs of phenotype classifications such as Caucasoid or White.
Indigenous European, Indigenous Africans, Indigenous West Asians, Indigenous Australians.
All of the above has mixture which may or may not result in phenotypes that do not fit into the paradigm of phenochotmy based on what is believed to be the racial type of those people.
So with that in mind I don't really care if we describe them as mixed. Greeks, Jews, Egyptians, Fulani, Pygmy, San - all mixed but with what is a function of their indigenous locale.
Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia which is a trade route between Africa, Europe and East Asia. Over time they would naturally contain this mixture of people.
North Africa Neighbors both Europe (gibraltar) and West Asia so their is also that mixture.
Depending on location the misture can be acute or negligible. When it is acute then fuzzy logic fails and politics takes over and this is what were spend our years discussing - politics of the fuzzy wuzzy world.
To me - West Asian tells me enough - next to Africa and Europe - duh!
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: West Asian is all you have to say.
^ Who are you even supposed to be talking too?
Did you answer any of my questions?
No you didn't.
So why do you imagine your incoherent babbling is a substitute for answering?
Until you learn to answer questions you have nothing to say... all your mindless jabbering on about "jewishness" - [a truly meaningless term - whenever YOU use it] - notwithstanding.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
^ Right now, provide the unambiguous "universal" meaning of *all* of those terms.
Or stand exposed once more as a jabbering idiot.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
Evergreen Writes:
Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"? [/qb]
quote:Jabbering Idiot writes: You are not stupid so don't play childish games.
...but you are, so what other kind of games is there to play with you?
Proof?
Instead of answering Evergreeens question, you waste 5 paragraphs vomiting all over yourself [like a child]...and STILL fail to answer.
Posted by Jari-Ankhamun (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This is a true insult to intelligence. There were no Ashkenazim in the first imperial Roman era. Mishnah was composed in that epoch and says Israel was the colour of boxwood or of honey. Out in the streets the common Roman thought Judaeans were a kind of Ethiopian.
quote: The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus
and one Greco-Latin author flat out ranked Judaeans as Egyptian.
quote: One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
Unless the Ethiopians and Egyptians are too examples of your unmixed whites, the idea of "white Jews" before north and northeast Mediterraneans (and even Danube Europeans) nationalized as Jews is an idea with very little evidence to back it up. I doubt a white people who are so very in love with their skin colour would have leprosy laws worded the way they are in the Five Books of Moses.
Now as for the white jew black jew dichotomy that's terminology first put into place by the Jews of India.
And to bring things back on topic (Dr. Ben's book) that's something written about in the object of the subject header announcing the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. .
I heard that the original Jews could have been simular too or ancestors of the Modern Ethiopians...and in my veiw the A. Egyptians were simular to Ethiopians...I also read about the Jews in Mali Empire and other West African nations during the Mid Eval eras....some Books are being found at Timbuctou written in Hebrew...could it be possible some West Africans have Jewish/Hebrew blood...?
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Jari-Ankhamun wrote:
quote: I heard that the original Jews could have been simular too or ancestors of the Modern Ethiopians...and in my veiw the A. Egyptians were simular to Ethiopians
The ancient Egyptians were similar to present day Sudanese and indigenous Egyptians not Ethiopians. Get up off your ass and research. You'll find that you won't make such an idiot out of yourself that way.
Also, quit trying to act like you are some kind of a deity that has the right to assign cultures and history to groups of people on some arbitrary basis such as you like the way they look. You're a sick person.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: the topic: JEWISH RACE MYTH.
Learn to read child. Topic is white Jewish race myth, taken from Dr. Ben's book. He's challenging the notion that only your devil jew magog people are able to define who is and who isn't "Jewish".
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
osirion wrote:
quote: The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time.
So by your own definition that makes white Europeans such as the English and the French, Arabs, Persians, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans mixed.
Do you believe the groups mentioned above are mixed?
We're waiting. : )
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Red,White, and Blue + Christian wrote:
------------------------ ------------------------
Haven't you noticed yet that nobody cares about your posts?
People know that you are an idiot. Therefore they leave your "made by a moron, for morons" posts alone.
ha ha ha heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Why are you even wasting your energy? : )
Posted by Serpent Wizdom (Member # 7652) on :
quote:Evergreen Posts: Evergreen Writes:
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular? [/QB]
Awesome question!! What I have always needed answered. U put one of the major pieces of this puzzle into perspective. Thanks
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
^ Right now, provide the unambiguous "universal" meaning of *all* of those terms.
Or stand exposed once more as a jabbering idiot.
Answer not a fool with foolish questions lest you be liken to one!
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
Evergreen Writes:
Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
quote:Jabbering Idiot writes: You are not stupid so don't play childish games.
...but you are, so what other kind of games is there to play with you?
Proof?
Instead of answering Evergreeens question, you waste 5 paragraphs vomiting all over yourself [like a child]...and STILL fail to answer. [/QB]
Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Medi-centrist will not like this but most Mediteranean people exhibit mixture to a significantly high degree. It is less evident amongst the Welch and Swedes. It is also less evident amongst pygmies of West Africa. At some point mixture is negligible and not warranteed as a description of the people.
Arabs and Jews have something is common besides being West Asian in origins - they are clearly a mixed people.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: [QUOTE]....could it be possible some West Africans have Jewish/Hebrew blood...?
Evergreen Writes:
I don't know. What is the Jewish/Hebrew blood type?
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Evergreen Writes:
Which groups of people in Africa, Europe or SW Asia are "unmixed" in your worldview?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
Posted by Hori (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Why don't you employ the policy of responding by sending all known trolls to their designated threads?
That way you can keep these educational threads neat - contain the unfortunate responses to the designated threads.
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
al-Takruri,
I've been told or heard White Jews say many times that the original Jews were Black. You could say that there were Blacks in early Greece, Italy and North Africa and in many other places.
Then, the question is what was the nature of their "Judaism"; something similar to the Beta Israel type or even polytheism. They were Wast Africans and not West Africans.
Counting the founders: the matrilineal genetic ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora.Behar DM, Metspalu E, Kivisild T, Rosset S, Tzur S, Hadid Y, Yudkovsky G, Rosengarten D, Pereira L, Amorim A, Kutuev I, Gurwitz D, Bonne-Tamir B, Villems R, Skorecki K. Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa, Israel.
The history of the Jewish Diaspora dates back to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests in the Levant, followed by complex demographic and migratory trajectories over the ensuing millennia which pose a serious challenge to unraveling population genetic patterns. Here we ask whether phylogenetic analysis, based on highly resolved mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) phylogenies can discern among maternal ancestries of the Diaspora. Accordingly, 1,142 samples from 14 different non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities were analyzed. A list of complete mtDNA sequences was established for all variants present at high frequency in the communities studied, along with high-resolution genotyping of all samples. Unlike the previously reported pattern observed among Ashkenazi Jews, the numerically major portion of the non-Ashkenazi Jews, currently estimated at 5 million people and comprised of the Moroccan, Iraqi, Iranian and Iberian Exile Jewish communities showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect, which did however characterize the smaller and more remote Belmonte, Indian and the two Caucasus communities. The Indian and Ethiopian Jewish sample sets suggested local female introgression, while mtDNAs in all other communities studied belong to a well-characterized West Eurasian pool of maternal lineages. Absence of sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages among the North African Jewish communities suggests negligible or low level of admixture with females of the host populations among whom the African haplogroup (Hg) L0-L3 sub-clades variants are common. In contrast, the North African and Iberian Exile Jewish communities show influence of putative Iberian admixture as documented by mtDNA Hg HV0 variants. These findings highlight striking differences in the demographic history of the widespread Jewish Diaspora.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
Let's move on people since obviously Jews can be White or Black based on the new Al TaBSuri definition.
But before I move on lets clarify one point: when I talk about Jews, I am not talking about the Jewish religion at all. This is why I always go back to the concept of Hebrew since the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Hebrews are now members of lots of different religions: Islam, Christian, Judaeo, etc.
As for calling me a troll. That appears to be a label used for anyone that disagrees with the dominant political agenda on this forum. If that is true then it should not apply to me since I do not disagree with the intent but I do disagree with the language.
Africans played a vital part in shaping Western culture and it is so often ignored. I find the focus of this forum to be interesting but I am often critical of the personal nature it takes.
Personal attacks does not promote interest in African history. Contradictory strawman attacks also impede progress in understanding.
Fact: the original Jews were Hebrews.
Hebrews are West Asians - period.
Not Europeans or Africans but sharing heritage with both but still a unique people.
End of story.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
Man, shut the f***k up you little p***y. All you ever do is complain about lack of a censor in here so you can get away with your Jew myths and mischaracterisations of Dr. Ben.
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Evergreen Writes:
Which groups of people in Africa, Europe or SW Asia are "unmixed" in your worldview?
Evergreen Writes:
I would still like an answer on this.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
There's nothing new about the definition of Jew nor is it made up by me. It is same definition as per Jewish authorities ever since ever since and the same one I've posted numerus times.
'Osirion' is just a joke and nows nothing of Jews and Judasm as per that people themselves as I've proven time and again when I rebuff his private opinions about Jews and Judaism.
Nothing new (and I might add nothing learned by 'Osirion.' As always when shown to be incompetent in reading and analyzing data he'll wait a season or so and come back breying the same asinities.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
... obviously Jews can be White or Black based on the new Al TaBSuri definition.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
If there is such a thing as "original Jews," they would be members of the tribe of Y*hudah only.
Jews today are a conglomeration of all 12 Tribes including the ereb rab (mixed multitude) who left Egypt with them and all the peoples who became either ger toshab (settlers) in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah or ger ssedeq (i.e. converts) to Israelite spirituality where ever in the world they lived.
We're discussing a real people and fabricated personal definitions are disallowed unless we want to indulge in self-serving fantasies.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [qb]But before I move on lets clarify one point: when I talk about Jews, I am not talking about the Jewish religion at all. This is why I always go back to the concept of Hebrew since the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I doubt the Hebrews (70 members of Ya*qob's extended family who migrated to Egypt in the face of starvation) knew much of anything of Judaism as codified since the Anshei K*nesseth G*dolah[/i], especially the wide variety of minhagiym practised by the myriad Jewish communities worldwide today.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
...
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [qb] Hebrew s[ ] the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I can't speak for others but when I use troller I mean just that; someone who throws out a baited line in hopes of catching responses. When trolling the troller has no concern for accuracy, validity, or anything remotely connected to posting correct and verifiable information.
Trollers are just running off at the mouth, not at all concerned with the forwarding of knowledge.
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Fact: the original Jews were Hebrews.
Hebrews are West Asians - period.
Not Europeans or Africans but sharing heritage with both but still a unique people.
End of story.
Please give us some evidence to support your assertions.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Osirion's statement that Hebrews were West Asians is rather null when it comes to actual physical appearance. We know that the populations of Southwest Asia are diverse consisting of various lineages and phenotypes-- some from the west in Africa others from east in Iran, others autochthonous or indigenous but all of whom includes peoples of black phenotypes as well as lighter peoples from further north.
We know that there has been African genetic influence in the Levant since mesolithic times and from paintings from the Egyptians themselves certain groups from the Levant were as dark as they (black). So the existence of black Judaeans shouldn't be a surprise.
Takruri, to get back to your discussion of prophecy as it relates to the Hebrews and Afrasian at large, I am curious about the existence of prophets among the Egyptians and their beliefs regarding them. All I know from Egyptian texts are the mention of certain prophets or sacred oracles among certain deities of a certain districts. Does anyone else know about this??
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
aaahhhhh, Charlie Chan is back.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't know how you could write anything in here with dick in your mouth, but apparently you succeed.
Posted by Hori (Member # 11484) on :
Up.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote: Osirion's statement that Hebrews were West Asians is rather null when it comes to actual physical appearance.
Being West Asian is what we know they are the rest is speculation.
Stick to the facts.
quote:Hebrews are West Asians - period.
Not Europeans or Africans but sharing heritage with both but still a unique people.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Fact: the original Jews were Hebrews.
Hebrews are West Asians - period.
Not Europeans or Africans but sharing heritage with both but still a unique people.
End of story.
Please give us some evidence to support your assertions.
Do you accept Biblical references as evidence?
If not then there's little point in a discussion about Hebrews.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Hebrew literature refers to the Levant as the land of K*na'an. Canaan being a son of Hham makes the land of Canaan a subset of the land of Hham.
No mention of a west or any other Asia in Hebrew literature.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Exactly. Also, the phrase 'West Asian' only describes geographic area and says nothing about overall appearance. There existed black West Asians as well as lighter skinned types.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ Never said there weren't Black Hebrews. I don't like wasting time talking about phenotypes. You and alTakruri should know very well that phenotype is superficial. It is just an adaptation to the environment such as what you would expect from dietary and climatic constraints. What is the big deal with that. Based on this there would have been White Hebrews as well.
But if we are going to talk about Hebrew literature then I am game.
For that we need to go to the Chaldees.
Remember what I mentioned before - Abraham was just Abra until he married an Egyptian and became Abra-Ham. Hebrew descendents are naturally a mixture of Asiatic and African.
However, the Akkadians are what? Are the Akkadians, which are of Mesopatmia - are they Canaanites? Weren't the Canaanites the enemy of Israel? Sure Abraham traded with them and sure the Isrealis intermarried with them but where do Hebrews start - they start with Abraham and he is a Chaldean or better said - Abraham was a Hebrew Akkadian.
So lets stop talking about Canaanites and start talking about Akkadians.
One thing I notice about West Asian art - the beard is always a prominent part of their representation even to this day. Jew and Muslims alike are proud of their beards.
Africans do not normally depict themselves with beards. No that little bit of fuzz on the chin of Egyptians doesn't count.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
Canaanites are Israelites, the latter just stole their culture and tribal god El. "Abraham" is a mythic figure and there were no "Israelis" before 1948. Get over it kid, your Hebrew myths are just that, myths.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The above post makes no sense. The Israelites were a documented historical people who were nomads who inhabited the same area as the sedentary Canaanites whom they later conquered or absorbed. The Israelis did not 'steal' the culture of the Canaanites, but they definitely borrowed alot from them even though they had their own religion and culture. Was the ancestral figure of 'Abraham' non existent and purely fiction? That may be a matter of conjecture but at least there is a very possibility he was real, even though he is also the supposed spiritual ancestor of Arabs and others who profess today's monotheist faiths. The kingdom of Israel and its people were definitely real and recorded in history for many centuries not only by the Israelis themselves but their neighbors and other peoples including the Greeks and Romans.
What did NOT exist is the state of 'Palestine' which was the one created in 1948 merely as a knee-jerk reaction to the revival of the Jewish Israeli state!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Quit with the BS already and leave my thread if all you can do is mislead the gullible unknowing.
Abram (High Father) became Abraham (Father of Multitudes).
Heh is not hhet nor is there such a word as abra.
Abraham was an Aramean (Syrian) of Paddan Aram. Chaldean Uru is just where he was born while his father plied a trade there and also was in employ of Babylonia's ruler.
Hebrew became narrowed down to only the Israelites (not the Israelis) but started very expansively as all the children of `Eber.
Trollers retard development by holding back the knowledge.
And as a further reminder my thread is about Dr. Ben's book. If you don't have it you can't comment on it so stop cluttering up my thread and obfuscating the subject header's topic: We, the Black Jews: Witness to the 'White Jewish Race' Myth Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
There was an ancient Philistia co-existing with (and most likely pre-existing) ancient Israel. It's teritory is what today is known as the Gaza.
As Hebrew literature has it, the Phillistines became heavily infused with the Israelite tribe of Dan.
Rome renamed Judea as Palestina (Palestine). The people calling themselves Palestinians today are not of Phillistine descent. They're "Arabs" though they've taken to employing ancient Aegean heritage as a political tactic.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
That is only one interpretation of the meaning for Abraham.
A different interpretation is what I have given:
Eber becomes Aber and later translated in to Abra. It actually means the people from foreign lands. It is the root meaning in the word "Hebrew".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
We don't have to interpret names. Names are words and words have meanings. We look them up in a dictionary or lexicon.
There is no word abra in Hebrew.
Stop bs and trolling for conversation. We're after knowledge not chit chat.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote:The Israelis did not 'steal' the culture of the Canaanites, but they definitely borrowed alot from them even though they had their own religion and culture.
No Israelis before 1948. And in denying the tribal nomads stole Canaanite culture you sound like Eurocentrics who insist, despite evidence, that the ancient Greeks didn't steal Egyptian knowledge. LOL AE was superior culture to Canaan, in turn superior to primitive tribal Jews who stole monotheism and spirituality from AE, while still holding on to primitive angry Canaanite god el/baal who seems to delights in smiting people/genocide.
quote: What did NOT exist is the state of 'Palestine' which was the one created in 1948 merely as a knee-jerk reaction to the revival of the Jewish Israeli state!
Here you sound like devil jewess Golda Meir who said there was no Palestinian people. She's right in a sense, they are recent migrants, but her own devil jews are even more resent!
Great sage can rant all he wants about his mythical father figure (maybe) Indian derivative cult god (A)Brahmin, but Abraham/eber or whatever primitive Semitic cult god the Hebrews adopted as their totem was as "real" and "historical" as Gilgamesh...never existed. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: No Israelis before 1948. And in denying the tribal nomads stole Canaanite culture you sound like Eurocentrics who insist, despite evidence, that the ancient Greeks didn't steal Egyptian knowledge. LOL AE was superior culture to Canaan, in turn superior to primitive tribal Jews who stole monotheism and spirituality from AE, while still holding on to primitive angry Canaanite god el/baal who seems to delights in smiting people/genocide.
Of course there were no Israelis, but there were ancient Israelites] whom you previously denied! I on the other hand don't deny anything. Apparently your warped little mind can't get around the fact that there was no cultural theft in the sense that a people actually acquired something of another people without due credit which is something modern Westerners are guilty of. Such was not the case of the ancient Israelites who like countless peoples back then were part of the process of free cultural exchange in which they borrowed aspects of another culture while influencing others. Hence, the Greeks borrowed certain aspects from the Egyptians and openly gave the Egyptians credit for it. The same way Christianity and Islam are also products of Israelite/Jewish customs. Yet no one accuses Europeans or Arabs of 'stealing' Jewish culture. That book you linked to is silly by the way, since Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt! Also, if you read anything from Biblical or Jewish scripture, you would know that the Israelite religious and community leaders actually struggled to rid their society of Canaanite cultural influence! Also many of the similarities between Hebrew and Canaanite culture may not even stem from cultural influence from the latter but a shared root or origin as Semitic speaking peoples. Or did you not even consider that?? And since when did Jews take monotheistic beliefs from the Egyptians?? Last time I checked, the Egyptians were polytheists who believed in a myriad of gods!
quote:Here you sound like devil jewess Golda Meir who said there was no Palestinian people. She's right in a sense, they are recent migrants, but her own devil jews are even more resent!
LOL I take it the word you meant was recent, and no, despite whatever disagreements you or I have with modern Jewish politicians, they are no more "devils" than the Palestianian nutcases who blow themselves up along with innocent women and children around them. Or the Palestinian men who rape their daughters and sisters and then murder them to restore their so-called "honor".
Now, concerning the modern nation of Israel, it was created as a sanctuary for Jews after the Holocaust. The land was given by the British after they took over what was left of the Turkish empire. 80% of the land was given to the Arabs in what is today Jordan; the remaining 20% was divided between Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Which meant the Jews were given only 10% of the land which at that time was only desert. The UN gave alot of money and donations to both Arabs and Jews. But apparently the Arabs were not satisfied simply because they hated a non-Muslim sovereignty in their presence! So what exactly is YOUR excuse for hating Jews?? You don't even sound like a Muslim. If anything you are just a sore neo-nazi loser who's probably in the same gay-gang as argyle and xyyman!
quote:Great sage can rant all he wants about his mythical father figure (maybe) Indian derivative cult god (A)Brahmin, but Abraham/eber or whatever primitive Semitic cult god the Hebrews adopted as their totem was as "real" and "historical" as Gilgamesh...never existed.
ROTFL The ancestral figure of Abraham has NOTHING to do with Indo-Aryan concept of Brahman! Your ignorance of religion is not surprising considering your ignorance of culture and history at large. So you compare clan or tribal ancestors who were more likely real personages to some Indian god concept?? LOL Perhaps you need to look at your idol, Hitler's own 'Aryan' cult and symbols and how they are the ones derived from Indian beliefs. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Interestingly enough Jewish lore claims Brahmins are descended from Abraham's sons of the concubine(s) whom he, laden with gifts but not inheritances, sent eastward to the east countries.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote:there was no cultural theft in the sense that a people actually acquired something of another people without due credit which is something modern Westerners are guilty of.
You are incredibly stupid DJ. Where did the Hebrews give credit to any civilization they "borrowed"? I guess we can find these "credits" in the OT, yes? LOL At least the Arabs give credit to Hebrews for their religion: Abraham, Moses etc.
The Hebrews on the other hand said every other god was "false". Some credit eh? LOL As for AE polytheism, again you are more stupid than I thought. The different "gods" are no different from Hebrew angels/cherubim etc (which they stole from others) etc. And what do you think was meant by "the man (Adam) has become one of us"? Gods, not god. Their monotehism is stolen Akhenaton's one god concept only Jew Freud gave them credit, while OT says Egyptians worship "false" gods. Some credit.
You are so a**backwards re birth of Apartheid Israel and UN Mandate etc, repeating old Zionist myths long debunked by Ilan Pappe etc.
I had a good laugh too when you said, clan or tribal ancestors who were "more likely real personages" Oh really now? prove it! LOL
quote:since Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt!
We hear you loud and clear Mary Lefkowitz!!! LMAO!
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Interestingly enough Jewish lore claims Brahmins ....
You mean Jewish mythology claims etc etc... LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: You are incredibly stupid DJ. Where did the Hebrews give credit to any civilization they "borrowed"? I guess we can find these "credits" in the OT, yes? LOL At least the Arabs give credit to Hebrews for their religion: Abraham, Moses etc.
LOL The only one incredibly stupid is YOU. So quit with the ad-hominem remarks and since YOU made the claim the burden of proof is on YOU to tell me what exactly did the Israelites 'steal' and not give credit to??
quote:The Hebrews on the other hand said every other god was "false". Some credit eh? LOL As for AE polytheism, again you are more stupid than I thought. The different "gods" are no different from Hebrew angels/cherubim etc (which they stole from others) etc. And what do you think was meant by "the man (Adam) has become one of us"? Gods, not god. Their monotehism is stolen Akhenaton's one god concept only Jew Freud gave them credit, while OT says Egyptians worship "false" gods. Some credit.
ROTFL First of all, Hebrew cherubim and other angels were NOT gods as they were not worshipped by the people! Second of all, Hebrew religion is NOT derived from Akhenaton as the Hebrew god was not a sun god nor is there any evidence that Akhenaton's cult is directly correlated to Israelite belief. And lastly, you obviously don't know anything about the concept of henotheism in which a group of people are polytheistic in belief but place their allegiance or worship in one god only. This is was something Israelites practiced as well as the Egyptians but it was not a matter of cultural borrowing, let alone theft but a very ancient practice rooted in both cultures that goes back to prehistoric times and is probably associated with proto-Afrasian in general!
So please stop projecting YOUR stupidity on me or others!
quote:You are so a**backwards re birth of Apartheid Israel and UN Mandate etc, repeating old Zionist myths long debunked by Ilan Pappe etc.
LOL Nope. It is YOU who got it backwards but your reject neo-nazi a** can't get it. If Israel was so "apartheid" then wouldn't have invited Arabs and other non-Jews who were oppressed in thier countries into Israel. Many of these Arabs enjoy rights and privileges in Israel that could only dream of getting in thier own countries. It's only the disgruntled Palestian Arabs who just hate the success of an Israeli state because thier own corrupt governments. So who do they blame? Those so-called "jewish devils" no doubt the same folks YOU blame for your messed up life.
quote:I had a good laugh too when you said, "clan or tribal ancestors who were "more likely real personages"
Oh really now? prove it! LOL
Oh illiterate one, notice I never said they were real; only that they were more likely real. Are you saying ancesteral figures or ancestors don't exist or are as unbelievable as gods or spirits?? LOL Now YOU are funny!
quote:"since Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt!"
We hear you loud and clear Mary Lefkowitz!!! LMAO!
Please cite actual evidence then that Socratic irony and the Socratic method are somehow 'stolen' from Egypt. Please show evidence that Platonic realism was stolen from Egypt, or the Organon was Egyptian but stolen by Aristotle. And I want real evidence and NOT some link to an Afrocentric book on stolen legacies.
That you're a gay white male is not so bad, but to vent your irrational hate on Jews and now insult true Africanist thought is just dispicable. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Please open your own topic for this, it doesn't belong in my topic and I don't want it in here.
I do however suggest you studyJames' Stolen Legacy before you further insult a black man speaking on an aspect of his own continental history (though "stolen" is incorrect terminology for cultural borrowings).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Please cite actual evidence then that Socratic irony and the Socratic method are somehow 'stolen' from Egypt. Please show evidence that Platonic realism was stolen from Egypt, or the Organon was Egyptian but stolen by Aristotle. And I want real evidence and NOT some link to an Afrocentric book on stolen legacies.
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
Ad hominem? Please keep in mind, Mary, it was you who casually dismissed James book as "Afrocentric" (as if it's a bad word) in order to advance your long debunked position of native born "Greek" philosophy. Until you can show where James is "wrong", save the projecting lefkowitz.
You're so pathologically pro-jew you defend positions long conceded by Jews(intelligent educated ones not the religious zealots and dumboos like you). The Cherubim concept they stole (no credit given) served similar functions as it did in other cultures – lower functionaries, answerable to a higher one god. In fact their god el, genesis story, ten commandments, one god concept from the Moses figure (learnt in all wisdom of Egyptians, not the primitive Hebrews), significance of number seven, concept of an ark etc etc etc are all Egyptian and near eastern. No credit given in OT, hence STOLEN! Plus, there are many instances in the bible where Yahweh is referred to as a "sun". Only zealots or hopeless judeophiles, such as yourself, deny the "coincidence" of Akhenaton's one god religion (a break from Egypt's henotheism really) and Moses imparting this to the "Israelite" masses, who were not so easily convinced (why?) as the OT shows.
Next, in your confused state, to justify your separation of Hebrew monotheism from Akhenaton's "cult" - as you call it (your pro-Jew contempt and Eurocentrism is just oozing here Mary, you cant help it) - you babble,
quote:"you obviously don't know anything about the concept of henotheism in which a group of people are polytheistic in belief but place their allegiance or worship in one god only. This is was something Israelites practiced as well as the Egyptians"
yet not so long ago you posted "the Egyptians were polytheists who believed in a myriad of gods!" LOLOLOL
Poor confused Mary doesn't realise that whatever the Hebrews practiced: whether monotheism from Egyptians through "Moses", or whenever they occasionally lapsed into goddess worship "polytheism" (symbolized by Jezebel) they got it all from other cultures. Not original, stolen.
You are not only ignorant of th birth Zionist state but you are alos clueless (or pretend to be) of Israel's discriminatory immigration laws and practices. But what really expsoes you is this, Many of these Arabs enjoy rights and privileges in Israel that could only dream of getting in thier own countries. It's only the disgruntled Palestian Arabs who just hate the success of an Israeli state because thier own corrupt governments.
Mary, you merely echo south African apartheid apologists who pointed to the influx of illegal migrant workers in south Africa at that time, as well as South Africa's economic "success" compared to other black African countries, as evidence apartheid wasn't so bad. Incidentally Zionism is compared to Apartheid south Africa and Israel was its close ally. Birds of a racist feather, and this goes for their apologists too!
You are a closet bigot Mary, you can't help yourself.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Please open your own topic for this, it doesn't belong in my topic and I don't want it in here.
I do however suggest you studyJames' Stolen Legacy before you further insult a black man speaking on an aspect of his own continental history (though "stolen" is incorrect terminology for cultural borrowings).
I've actually read some of the book years ago. And it's thesis makes little sense as there is no evidence of Greek scholars stealing philosophy or knowledge from Egypt. James claims that Aristotle raided the Alexandrian library yet the library and the very city of Alexandria wasn't even constructed until years after Alexander conquered it, and Aristotle's works began years earlier before they set foot in Egypt and his work itself was based on his mentor Plato and Socrates before him who had nothing to do with Egypt! And please do not suggest that just because James a black man happens to write about Africa, that he's necessarily correct.
Regardless, I never insulted James or any real black man in here. The only one I insult is the idiotic fake black man or rather crazed white homosexual anti-zionist posing as a blackman. Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: to vent your irrational hate on Jews and now insult true Africanist thought is just dispicable.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: Ad hominem? Please keep in mind, Mary, it was you who casually dismissed James book as "Afrocentric" (as if it's a bad word) in order to advance your long debunked position of native born "Greek" philosophy. Until you can show where James is "wrong", save the projecting lefkowitz.
I just said how he's wrong above. But please do not compare my dismissal to Lefkowitz whose overall thesis was that there was no Egyptian or African influence at all. Of course we know that this isn't the case, but feel free cite actual evidence that Greek philosophy was the result of Egypt. If you are goint to cite James's work please cite actual writing.
But what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand about Jews both modern or ancient. Is this another dumb distraction of yours??
quote:You're so pathologically pro-jew you defend positions long conceded by Jews(intelligent educated ones not the religious zealots and dumboos like you). The Cherubim concept they stole (no credit given) served similar functions as it did in other cultures – lower functionaries, answerable to a higher one god. In fact their god el, genesis story, ten commandments, one god concept from the Moses figure (learnt in all wisdom of Egyptians, not the primitive Hebrews), significance of number seven, concept of an ark etc etc etc are all Egyptian and near eastern. No credit given in OT, hence STOLEN! Plus, there are many instances in the bible where Yahweh is referred to as a "sun". Only zealots or hopeless judeophiles, such as yourself, deny the "coincidence" of Akhenaton's one god religion (a break from Egypt's henotheism really) and Moses imparting this to the "Israelite" masses, who were not so easily convinced (why?) as the OT shows.
LOL I am not "pro Jew" only pro-truth and pro-logic. And I defend anyone or anything that is under attack by ignorant biggoted morons such as yourself! Please cite evidence that concepts of 'cherubim' are Egptian. How is the god 'El' Egyptian when the deity is Canaanite, and the word 'el' itself meant god in Semitic languages. How is the genesis story Egyptian?? Can you find the story of the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, or the serpent in Egyptian myth?? The number seven as a sacred number is found in many cultures of the Near East not just Egypt but all the way to Mesopotamia. How do you attribute the number seven to Egyptians only? And again, how monotheism an Egyptian concept when the Egyptians worshiped multiple deities?? As for everything else including the ark of the covenant you are right that they derive from Egyptians. Which is not surprising considering that Egypt is not only next to the Levant but the Israelites as a nation only formed during the time they dwelt in Egypt. But explain how they "stole" these ideas instead of borrowing them like all ancient peoples.
quote:Next, in your confused state, to justify your separation of Hebrew monotheism from Akhenaton's "cult" - as you call it (your pro-Jew contempt and Eurocentrism is just oozing here Mary, you cant help it) - you babble,
quote:"you obviously don't know anything about the concept of henotheism in which a group of people are polytheistic in belief but place their allegiance or worship in one god only. This is was something Israelites practiced as well as the Egyptians"
yet not so long ago you posted "the Egyptians were polytheists who believed in a myriad of gods!" LOLOLOL
How did I contradict myself, you fool? The Egyptians were polytheists in that they believed in a myriad of deities. But they were henotheists in that every town or people put one god as supreme. It's very likely the Israelites did not borrow this from the Egyptians but practiced this on their own as did many other Semitic peoples in the Levant and other parts of the Near East. Many scholars believe this to be an ancient Afrasian tradition in general. Such was the case in Pre-Islamic Arabia and even today in rural parts of Ethiopia. No Egyptian origin is necessary.
quote:Poor confused Mary doesn't realise that whatever the Hebrews practiced: whether monotheism from Egyptians through "Moses", or whenever they occasionally lapsed into goddess worship "polytheism" (symbolized by Jezebel) they got it all from other cultures. Not original, stolen.
Again, how is monotheism an Egyptian practice? Which Egyptians worshipped one deity only? Even Akhenaton continued the tradition of divine kinngship that he was a deity also. Which brings me to the point that true monotheism didn't develop until much later among the Israelites which meant it definitely wasn't somehow "stolen" or taken from another people!
quote:You are not only ignorant of th birth Zionist state but you are alos clueless (or pretend to be) of Israel's discriminatory immigration laws and practices. But what really expsoes you is this,------
Mary, you merely echo south African apartheid apologists who pointed to the influx of illegal migrant workers in south Africa at that time, as well as South Africa's economic "success" compared to other black African countries, as evidence apartheid wasn't so bad. Incidentally Zionism is compared to Apartheid south Africa and Israel was its close ally. Birds of a racist feather, and this goes for their apologists too!
You moron, how is my defense of the simple fact that the Israeli state is more existent and valid than the state of 'Palestine' somehow a defense of discrimination?? This is one of the dumbest non-sequitors I've heard. Of course I do not support the discriminatory practices that Israelis have no more than the discriminatory practices of Arabs against non Muslims in their countries. But despite the problems they have, the government policies are more fair to even Arabs than Arab governments are to Jews! And please don't even bother comparing Israel to South Africa, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! LOL
quote:You are a closet bigot Mary, you can't help yourself.
Please stop projecting! Not only are YOU the only bigot in here who blames Jews of everything that is wrong in the world and most likely your life, but you even call me "Mary" when you are the only effeminate homosexual male that Hori exposed you to be! LMAO Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: to vent your irrational hate on Jews and now insult true Africanist thought is just dispicable.
Exactly. This is not about James or any Africanists. This is about a crazed anti-zionist biggot who hides behind Africanism and Afrocentrism to justify his irrational hatred of Jews! He compares his imaginary Zionist supremacist to Eurocentrism and compares his imaginary struggle against it to Africanist or black struggle.
Truth be told the guy is not even a black man but a pathetic white homosexual!!
Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
quote: I've actually read some of the book years ago. And it's thesis makes little sense as there is no evidence of Greek scholars stealing philosophy or knowledge from Egypt. James claims that Aristotle raided the Alexandrian library yet the library and the very city of Alexandria wasn't even constructed until years after Alexander conquered it,
Mary, I asked you to site where Prof. James is "wrong" and you merely vomit Lefkowitz old tired rantings.
quote:Please cite evidence that concepts of 'cherubim' are Egptian.
Duh...winged messengers, lower functionaries of the higher sun god (sun refernces in Bible too). The description of the ark is almost exactly the same as Osiris (god) between two winged (cherubim) deities. You're fighting a losing battle here Mary. Give it up.
quote: How is the god 'El' Egyptian when the deity is Canaanite...How is the genesis story Egyptian?? Can you find the story of the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, or the serpent in Egyptian myth??
As evidence of your strawmanship and deceit (Marc was right) you conveniently overlooked what I said, "are all Egyptian and near eastern" to asked me all that ****. LOL
As further evidence of your schizoid state you again on the one hand admit "henotheism in which a group of people are polytheistic in belief but place their allegiance or worship in one god only. This is was something Israelites practiced as well as the Egyptians" yet still maintain that "the Egyptians [unlike the "Israelites"] worshiped multiple deities" LMAO!
Now in order to reconcile your BS you say "The Egyptians were polytheists in that they believed in a myriad of deities. But they were henotheists in that every town or people put one god as supreme"
LOL Prey tell Mary, who were those "towns people" if not Egyptians!
quote:Even Akhenaton continued the tradition of divine kinngship that he was a deity also.
How is this different from concept of Israel's King is Israel's god in the bible? And Jew belief in returned messiah (not jesus) as a KING? Why did the Israelites want a king? everyone else had one: a concept of divine kingship. Thus we see constant references of the Lord as King of Israel and a "special" relationship betwen the Kings of Israel and the "Lord" in the OT.
And what the hell is "true monotheism"? Please show this, as allusions to polytheism are replete in OT, and as I said in the Moses story he had a hard time passing off this NEW god to his people. Why?
That you would even try to deny Akhenaton established one god religion is further evidence of your irrational pro-jewism, you're definitely one with the Christian Zionists and practicing Jews who deny connection between Egyptian one god concept, Moses, ten commandments etc in order to set apart the "Israelites" from other nations. Hebrew one god concept from Africa?!!? No way, not out of Africa!
quote: But explain how they "stole" these ideas instead of borrowing them like all ancient peoples.
No credit was given.
quote:Israeli state is more existent and valid than the state of 'Palestine'
How is this when one group came after the other? LOL
quote: And please don't even bother comparing Israel to South Africa, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!
This is because you are f**king stupid Mary. Ignorant of Israel's birth, similarities between Zionist and Verwoerd's Apartheid ideology, alliance between the two nations, books, academic papers, (non Arab/Muslim) intellectuals comparing the two ideologies (even a UN resolution I think). This is why I know you are a closet bigot. Doesn't take much to expose you moles.
quote: YOU the only bigot in here who blames Jews of everything
LOL Up yours Mary; no picture spam and childish taunts please. State what exactly have I said re white Jews that's incorrect or unfair.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Eber to Hebrew?
Jewish Encyclopedia:
The eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews; grandson of Arphaxad and great-grandson of Shem; father of Joktan, the ancestor of the Arabs, and of Peleg, among whose progeny, in the fifth generation, was Abram (Gen. x. 22, 25-30; xi. 18-26).
The word "Eber" signifies "the region beyond." Of the nine words in Genesis that designate Shem's descendants, at least two, "Arphaxad" and "Serug" (Gen. xi. 10, 21), are identical with the names of districts: the former indicating the district of Arrapachitis on the upper Zab, the latter the place where Abu Zaid of "Saruj," the hero of Ḥariri's "Maḳamat," had his home. The conclusion is therefore warranted that the term "Eber" originally designated a district.
The use of "Eber" as a "nomen appellativum" is common; it denotes originally "that which is beyond." This explains the fact that, in the genealogy of the Semites, Abraham and, especially, Israel are called descendants of "Eber"; for if "Eber" had been originally the name of a person, it would be strange that Abraham should have been so closely linked with him, since Eber was not his immediate ancestor, but one six times removed. It is because "Eber" was originally the name of a region that it took so important a place in the genealogical tree.
"Eber" designates the region occupied longest and most continuously by the peoples that traced their descent from Shem through Arphaxad. This is apparent in the words, "And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim [Kition, on the island of Cyprus], and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber" (Num. xxiv. 24). Here "Eber" designates a country in the neighborhood of Assyria, and to a certain extent forming a part of it—the country beyond the Euphrates. The importance of that river for anterior Asia may serve to explain the fact that the country beyond the Euphrates was designated κατ' ἐξοχὴν as the "region beyond."
The Babylonian name corresponding to the Hebrew "'Eber ha-Nahar" is "'Ebir Nari" (comp. Winckler, "Gesch. Israel's," i. 223, note 1). It occurs in an inscription of Assur-bel-kala (Hommel, "Ancient Hebrew Tradition," p. 195, line 5) about 1100 B.C. In I Kings v. 4 (A. V. iv. 24) "'Eber ha-Nahar" is descriptive of the limits of Solomon's kingdom.
Hommel's opinion is that the region beyond Wadi Sirḥan is indicated; but see Ed. König, "Fünf Neue Arabische Landschaftsnamen im Alten Testament," 1901, p. 44.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: Mary, I asked you to site where Prof. James is "wrong" and you merely vomit Lefkowitz old tired rantings.
LOL What I posted were not rantings but logical rebuttals. Please read it again if you don't understand how it shows James is wrong. But then again, I don't expect one who's minds been twisted by hate to the point of irrationality to understand.
quote:Duh...winged messengers, lower functionaries of the higher sun god (sun refernces in Bible too). The description of the ark is almost exactly the same as Osiris (god) between two winged (cherubim) deities. You're fighting a losing battle here Mary. Give it up.
Please give examples of winged messengers in Egyptian religion. As I recall there are winged deities usually goddess figures, but this is striking different from the cherubim and other angelic figures of Israelites. Yes, the ark is of Egyptian derivation but everything else? And apparently you are too dumb to know that YOU lost the battle long time ago, not only in this argument but with plain logic and reason once you surrendered your mind to your Jewish hate.
quote:As evidence of your strawmanship and deceit (Marc was right) you conveniently overlooked what I said, "are all Egyptian and near eastern" to asked me all that ****. LOL
This makes no sense. 'El' is a Semitic word for god whose original root word meant 'high'. The Egyptians were NOT Semitic speakers, you moron. Also, you look to Marc Washington for support?!-- the same man who says whites entered Europe during the Middle Ages or that the Celtic Gauls and Vikings were black Africans?? LOL
quote:As further evidence of your schizoid state you again on the one hand admit "henotheism in which a group of people are polytheistic in belief but place their allegiance or worship in one god only. This is was something Israelites practiced as well as the Egyptians" yet still maintain that "the Egyptians [unlike the "Israelites"] worshiped multiple deities" LMAO!
Now in order to reconcile your BS you say "The Egyptians were polytheists in that they believed in a myriad of deities. But they were henotheists in that every town or people put one god as supreme"
LOL Prey tell Mary, who were those "towns people" if not Egyptians!
Apparently you did not understand when I said the Israelites were polytheists at one point but gradually became monotheist, but exactly where is the evidence that their monotheism was derived from Egypt?? What is it? And please do not point to that silly Akhenaton theory as the Israelite god was not a sun god. Also, henotheism was something associated with Afrasian speaking people in general from prehistoric times. Semitic speaking tribes including the Israelites but also pre-Islamic Arabs of Arabia to peoples in Ethiopia were henotheists. How do you attribute this to "Egyptian influence"??
quote:How is this different from concept of Israel's King is Israel's god in the bible? And Jew belief in returned messiah (not jesus) as a KING? Why did the Israelites want a king? everyone else had one: a concept of divine kingship. Thus we see constant references of the Lord as King of Israel and a "special" relationship betwen the Kings of Israel and the "Lord" in the OT.
Moron, the King of Israel was NOT a god or worshipped as one by the people was considered a servant of God or ideally high priest which connects the role of Israel's king more like those of other kings in Asia than so Egypt!
quote:And what the hell is "true monotheism"? Please show this, as allusions to polytheism are replete in OT, and as I said in the Moses story he had a hard time passing off this NEW god to his people. Why?
True monotheism, my dimwit friend, is the acknowledgement of one deity only. Of course this happened much later on in Israelite history long after Egypt.
quote:That you would even try to deny Akhenaton established one god religion is further evidence of your irrational pro-jewism, you're definitely one with the Christian Zionists and practicing Jews who deny connection between Egyptian one god concept, Moses, ten commandments etc in order to set apart the "Israelites" from other nations. Hebrew one god concept from Africa?!!? No way, not out of Africa!
Incorrect. How can I deny the fact that the spiritual traditions of the Hebrews and other Semitic speaking peoples are derived from proto-Semitic and that proto-Semitic originated from Africa?? I have never denied that basic FACT. What I argue against is YOUR ridiculous claim that Israelites somehow "stole" everything from the Egyptians.
quote:No credit was given.
How so? Please explain. I already showed you above how most of the things you attribute to Egyptians did not in fact come from them.
quote:How is this when one group came after the other? LOL
What are you talking about? As I recall 'Palestine' was formed as a response to the founding of modern Israel. It doesn't help you either that there was an ancient Israel.
quote:This is because you are f**king stupid Mary. Ignorant of Israel's birth, similarities between Zionist and Verwoerd's Apartheid ideology, alliance between the two nations, books, academic papers, (non Arab/Muslim) intellectuals comparing the two ideologies (even a UN resolution I think). This is why I know you are a closet bigot. Doesn't take much to expose you moles.
LOL Is this cussing a sign of frustration cuz you know you're wrong? Israel is one of the smallest nations in the world surrounded by a sea of Islamic Arabs, and I am somehow suppose to believe in some Zionist "apartheid"?? Am I to believe in your paranoid dillusion of a zionist plan for world domination?
quote:LOL Up yours Mary; no picture spam and childish taunts please. State what exactly have I said re white Jews that's incorrect or unfair.
LMAO Again YOU call me "Mary" when I'm not the nutty efeminate homosexual who is mad the neo-nazis won't accept me. I don't need pictures to see you for what you truly are. The whole forum sees you and your boyfriends.
If you want to discuss it with real Jews I suggest you talk to Osirion or Takruri. Posted by akoben08 (Member # 15244) on :
What you posted, you lazy a** philipooo, was a mere carbon copy of hysterical rants of Lefkowitz that has been debunked over a decade ago. Every anti-black bigot who never read James' book uses them. No surprise, Mary, you vomit them here too. LOL
I just gave you an example of the Egyptian prototype for Hebrew cherubim dufus. As I said you will never accept it because you are as irrational as your coreligionists. And where did I say El was Egyptian, you deceitful judeophile.
Gasping for air, in desperation you dismiss the overwhelming evidence, even Jewish tradition, that it was the Egyptian Moses that gave them their god, first five books of their holy book, a priesthood (organised religion) etc You must be a Christian, maybe you're a Catholic philliooo, as you're such an apologist-ignoramus since there are allusions to sun worship in the bible, what do you think passover (Jewish Easter: passover of the sun) is all about? A celebration of a mass Hebrew "exodus" from Egypt? LOLOL
And contrary to your "true monotheism" being gradually institutionalised, there are numerous instances in OT where priests (hypocrites since their god is Egyptian sun god) condemned sun worship among the people; just as Moses, they had a hard time stamping out competition.
You poor closet bigot, Egyptians didn't "worship" Pharaoh (what kind of Africanist are you? – NOT) the concept of Pharaoh/King/emperor as representative of god (sun) on earth is a feature of ancient societies. Divine kingship started with Egypt, "Israelites" merely copied it. Denying this is mere desperation on your part Mary.
And how stupid (or desparate?) can you be not to realise that if you take something from someone, dufus, without giving them credit that's stealing!
Yes there were ancient "Israelites" in S.Levant; no ancient Ukrainians, Russians etc in that region though. LOL
Oh my god, how f**ing retarded are you?!! Please explain how the fact of Israel being a small nation refutes what I said about Apartheid and Zionism?!!? LOLOLOLOLOL
Look, put down your skirt, stop running, and, "State what exactly have I said re white Jews that's incorrect or unfair" Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
There's no question here. The English word "Hebrew" derives from the Canaanitish word עִ בְ רִ י whose root is עֵ בֶ ר
For the Author, listeners, and readers of the Hebrew literature `Eber was an etiologic eponymous figure See here Kaplan's notes:
quote: Hebrews (Cf. Targum Yonathan; Ibn Ezra). Literally, 'the sons of Eber' (see Genesis 10:24, 11:14). In Hebrew, 'Hebrews' are Ivri'im, literally, 'Eberites,' or 'Sons of Eber.'
Others, however, translate this verse, 'sons of all who live on the other side of the river' (Rashi; Ramban).
Had I time, I'd compose a response somewhat similar to this:
quote: According to the article by R. Laird Harris, in TWOT (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament), Vol. 2, p. 643, "The biblical record quite definitely indicates 'ibri is derived from Eber, the name of one of Shem's sons (Gen 10:21; 11:14, 16). Abraham is identified as a descendant of Shem, of Eber's line (Gen 11:26)." 'ibri is used of the descendants of Eber, through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, by which the covenant people were designated. It apparently used by non-Israelites as a derogatory term to indicate "stranger, non-native, alien." TWOT thus indicates that BDB (contra KB (Koehler and Baumgartner) derives the term from 'abar with the connotation of "one from beyond," "from the other side." Hence, the idea of "stranger, non-native, alien," etc.
by Bryant J. Williams III
Abraham was called a hebrew (yonderer) because to the one calling him so he was from beyond or across the River. That's literally speaking. Metaphysical wise, Abraham was called Hebrew because he was a Beyonder as far as expression of a deity beyond representation of any human made idol.
This concept was beyond what those around Abraham thought of the deity though some peoples elsewhere may have had an unfathomable deity. The difference being Abraham's deity was approachable. Other peoples who recognize an unfathomable deity generally belief that deity is remote, unreachable, and uncaring and those they devote themselves to lesser powers.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Eber to Hebrew?
Jewish Encyclopedia:
The eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews; grandson of Arphaxad and great-grandson of Shem; father of Joktan, the ancestor of the Arabs, and of Peleg, among whose progeny, in the fifth generation, was Abram (Gen. x. 22, 25-30; xi. 18-26).
The word "Eber" signifies "the region beyond." Of the nine words in Genesis that designate Shem's descendants, at least two, "Arphaxad" and "Serug" (Gen. xi. 10, 21), are identical with the names of districts: the former indicating the district of Arrapachitis on the upper Zab, the latter the place where Abu Zaid of "Saruj," the hero of Ḥariri's "Maḳamat," had his home. The conclusion is therefore warranted that the term "Eber" originally designated a district.
The use of "Eber" as a "nomen appellativum" is common; it denotes originally "that which is beyond." This explains the fact that, in the genealogy of the Semites, Abraham and, especially, Israel are called descendants of "Eber"; for if "Eber" had been originally the name of a person, it would be strange that Abraham should have been so closely linked with him, since Eber was not his immediate ancestor, but one six times removed. It is because "Eber" was originally the name of a region that it took so important a place in the genealogical tree.
"Eber" designates the region occupied longest and most continuously by the peoples that traced their descent from Shem through Arphaxad. This is apparent in the words, "And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim [Kition, on the island of Cyprus], and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber" (Num. xxiv. 24). Here "Eber" designates a country in the neighborhood of Assyria, and to a certain extent forming a part of it—the country beyond the Euphrates. The importance of that river for anterior Asia may serve to explain the fact that the country beyond the Euphrates was designated κατ' ἐξοχὴν as the "region beyond."
The Babylonian name corresponding to the Hebrew "'Eber ha-Nahar" is "'Ebir Nari" (comp. Winckler, "Gesch. Israel's," i. 223, note 1). It occurs in an inscription of Assur-bel-kala (Hommel, "Ancient Hebrew Tradition," p. 195, line 5) about 1100 B.C. In I Kings v. 4 (A. V. iv. 24) "'Eber ha-Nahar" is descriptive of the limits of Solomon's kingdom.
Hommel's opinion is that the region beyond Wadi Sirḥan is indicated; but see Ed. König, "Fünf Neue Arabische Landschaftsnamen im Alten Testament," 1901, p. 44.
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Quit with the BS already and leave my thread if all you can do is mislead the gullible unknowing.
Abram (High Father) became Abraham (Father of Multitudes).
Heh is not hhet nor is there such a word as abra.
alTakruri, I thought Abram is Father of many/multitudes and Abraham is Father of many/multitudes Hot/Burnt.
Abram only became Abraham after he visited the land of Ham (The Kemetians/Egyptians)
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What lexicon are you using? Does it know the difference between הheh and חhhet?
Abram _________ אַבְרָם Abraham _______ אַבְרָהָם Hham _________ חָם
quote: No longer shall you be called Abram. Your name shall become Abraham, for I have set you up as the father of a horde of nations.
^ Kaplan v Old JPS
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.
The difference between Abram __ ('brm) and Abraham ('brhm) is one letter 'h' (heh). A letter, 'h' was added from The Name of the deity who altered Abram's name.
Hham (hhm) doesn't have an 'h' in it.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben08: What you posted, you lazy a** philipooo, was a mere carbon copy of hysterical rants of Lefkowitz that has been debunked over a decade ago. Every anti-black bigot who never read James' book uses them. No surprise, Mary, you vomit them here too. LOL
LOL First of all I read his book years ago, and second what I posted were valid historical facts. Besides, how does disagreeing with what one author says make me an "anti-black bigot" all of a sudden?! LOL It's obvious you are projecting your own hatred and bigotry on to me.
Besides, if you want to discuss Egyptian philosophical influence on Greece, perhaps you should discuss it here instead of using it as a strawman distraction from the topic of this thread.
quote:I just gave you an example of the Egyptian prototype for Hebrew cherubim dufus. As I said you will never accept it because you are as irrational as your coreligionists. And where did I say El was Egyptian, you deceitful judeophile.
LMAO And again, winged goddesses of Egypt were not winged cherubim, moron. Or do you even know what the Hebrew concept of angels are-- cherubim, seraphim, or others alike?? And I know what you said, that the one-god concept came from Akhenaton even though there is no evidence of such a thing. So obviously it is you who is decietful.
quote:Gasping for air, in desperation you dismiss the overwhelming evidence, even Jewish tradition, that it was the Egyptian Moses that gave them their god, first five books of their holy book, a priesthood (organised religion) etc You must be a Christian, maybe you're a Catholic philliooo, as you're such an apologist-ignoramus since there are allusions to sun worship in the bible, what do you think passover (Jewish Easter: passover of the sun) is all about? A celebration of a mass Hebrew "exodus" from Egypt? LOLOL
Actually, I'm gasping from laughter at these posts of yours or any of your posts!
No I'm not a religous person, but I am scholarly and I can read when one is knows nothing but a religion or culture but propaganda nonsense as I read right now. Of course Moses was 'Egyptian' nationality wise and so were the Hebrew people but how does that say that the Hebrew religion by and large or their beliefs were Egyptian when any scholar sees they have more common with tribal Asiatic societies.
quote:And contrary to your "true monotheism" being gradually institutionalised, there are numerous instances in OT where priests (hypocrites since their god is Egyptian sun god) condemned sun worship among the people; just as Moses, they had a hard time stamping out competition.
Again, please show evidence that the Hebrew god was a 'Sun' god.
quote:You poor closet bigot, Egyptians didn't "worship" Pharaoh (what kind of Africanist are you? – NOT) the concept of Pharaoh/King/emperor as representative of god (sun) on earth is a feature of ancient societies. Divine kingship started with Egypt, "Israelites" merely copied it. Denying this is mere desperation on your part Mary.
The pharaoh was venerated as a god incarnate in human flesh. The Israelite king was not. As even a lay person knows this. The only desperation I sense is coming from YOU.
quote:And how stupid (or desparate?) can you be not to realise that if you take something from someone, dufus, without giving them credit that's stealing!
But again Israelite religion is not "stolen" from Egypt. So your point is null and void.
quote:Yes there were ancient "Israelites" in S.Levant; no ancient Ukrainians, Russians etc in that region though. LOL
Your point?
quote:Oh my god, how f**ing retarded are you?!! Please explain how the fact of Israel being a small nation refutes what I said about Apartheid and Zionism?!!? LOLOLOLOLOL
You still fail to make your case about any "apartheid" other than the usual anti-Isreali nonsense. By the way, your cussing is an obvious sign of your frustration.
quote:Look, put down your skirt, stop running, and, "State what exactly have I said re white Jews that's incorrect or unfair"
LOL Please stop with the projecting, calling me "Mary" and saying I wear skirts. Dude, I am not YOU. And I already pointed out what is untrue about your rantings. Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Besides, if you want to discuss Egyptian philosophical influence on Greece, perhaps you should discuss it here instead of using it as a strawman distraction from the topic of this thread.
Distraction and straw man? Jesus Christ Mary stop the pretense. It was you who denied that Greek philosophy is rooted in Egypt and condescendingly (you racist bitch) dismissed James' book, the ball is in your court! But you can’t reply. What you posted was Lefkowitz's straw man arguments. You have failed to go any further because you haven't even read the book yet you dismiss it. They call this Ad hominem.
quote: winged goddesses of Egypt were not winged cherubim, moron. Or do you even know what the Hebrew concept of angels are-- cherubim, seraphim, or others alike
You admit Egyptian prototype for ark of covenant yet deny cherubim etc are modeled off Egyptian??? You deranged contradictory MF! LOLOLOL
quote:And I know what you said, that the one-god concept came from Akhenaton
So you admit you're a deceitful wretch when you tied to claim I said El was Egyptian and Hebrews "stole" everything from the Egyptians.
quote:Of course Moses was 'Egyptian' nationality wise and so were the Hebrew people but how does that say that the Hebrew religion by and large or their beliefs were Egyptian
Stop trying to down play his origins by putting it in quotes. LOL I know it must be difficult for you - arguing from your untenable position - but you can't escape the fact that when the first holy books, laws, a god (remember they kept asking Moses who is this god), organized religion/priesthood are introduced by a foreigner then only a judeophilic fool would deny the roots of said people's faith.
quote:Again, please show evidence that the Hebrew god was a 'Sun' god.
Psalm 84:11. [for more on African origins of the Hebrew religion see Ashra Kwesi's dvds]
Oh and Mary if your retort is that they, unlike the Egyptians, were merely comparing Yahweh's attributes to the sun then you are more of a fake a** Africanist than you are now exposing yourself to be! LOL
quote:The pharaoh was venerated as a god incarnate in human flesh. The Israelite king was not. As even a lay person knows this. The only desperation I sense is coming from YOU.
Oh my god. Mary, why was the Israelite kingship created under the "inspiration" of Yahweh? Why was it so intimately connected to the priesthood? Yes I admit a simpleton Catholic phlipeee brought up to believe Egyptians "worshipped" winged creators and their pharaoh (oh how I love your Africana) would miss the comparisons.
quote:Your point?
duh....ancient Israel and the Apartheid state today are not the same - so stop trying to sneak in comparisons you philipoo devil:'Palestine' was formed as a response to the founding of modern Israel. It doesn't help you either that there was an ancient Israel.
quote:You still fail to make your case about any "apartheid" other than the usual anti-Isreali nonsense. By the way, your cussing is an obvious sign of your frustration.
Ok Mary. What is Zionism and how is it different from Vosters ideology? Please Mary no more running.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: Distraction and straw man? Jesus Christ Mary stop the pretense. It was you who denied that Greek philosophy is rooted in Egypt and condescendingly (you racist bitch) dismissed James' book, the ball is in your court! But you can’t reply. What you posted was Lefkowitz's straw man arguments. You have failed to go any further because you haven't even read the book yet you dismiss it. They call this Ad hominem.
LOL Pretense is what all your rants are nothing more. So let me again correct you. What I denied was that Greece "stole" their philosophy from Egypt, which they obviously didn't as Takruri points out here. And again how does dismissing James make me a "racist" or as you say "anti-black"?? Why don't you stop with your lies and admit that the only bigot around here is YOU and you know it! Your psychological projection is overwhelming. So is your frustration as your evident cussing. YOU of all people can't be calling me a b*tch. Is this not you with your boyfriends??
quote:You admit Egyptian prototype for ark of covenant yet deny cherubim etc are modeled off Egyptian??? You deranged contradictory MF! LOLOLOL
Non-sequitor. Modelled depictions are different from actual religious concepts or motifs. You said that the very concept of cherubim or angels in general came from Egypt yet speaking of winged Egyptian goddesses is not proof.
quote:So you admit you're a deceitful wretch when you tied to claim I said El was Egyptian and Hebrews "stole" everything from the Egyptians.
Nope. I just admit you are a pathetic nutcase with no case in terms of your claims. The Israelite god is not an Egyptian god or the 'Aten' if that is what you think.
quote:Stop trying to down play his origins by putting it in quotes. LOL I know it must be difficult for you - arguing from your untenable position - but you can't escape the fact that when the first holy books, laws, a god (remember they kept asking Moses who is this god), organized religion/priesthood are introduced by a foreigner then only a judeophilic fool would deny the roots of said people's faith.
LOL I'm not downplaying anything. It's a fact that not only Moses but *all* the Israelites were united as a nation only in Egypt. That does not contradict their Asiatic origins nor their distinct beliefs from Egyptian. Though I don't deny any Egyptian influence. What I do deny are your obvious silly claims for which you have no basis for such as their very deity being Egyptian or that they practiced divine kingship etc.
quote:Psalm 84:11. [for more on African origins of the Hebrew religion see Ashra Kwesi's dvds]
Oh and Mary if your retort is that they, unlike the Egyptians, were merely comparing Yahweh's attributes to the sun then you are more of a fake a** Africanist than you are now exposing yourself to be! LOL
LMAO You realize that Yahweh's attributes were compared to a number of things not just the sun. And again, I never claimed to be an Africanist but it's obvious the only fake-ass Africanist here is YOU. You obviously use Africanism as part of your anti-jew propaganda. But all the real Africanists in here know that which is why you are not taken seriously in this forum.
quote:Oh my god. Mary, why was the Israelite kingship created under the "inspiration" of Yahweh? Why was it so intimately connected to the priesthood? Yes I admit a simpleton Catholic phlipeee brought up to believe Egyptians "worshipped" winged creators and their pharaoh (oh how I love your Africana) would miss the comparisons.
Of course the kingship was intimately tied with the priesthood because as with other Asiatic cultures, the king was to act as an imediatary with the deity. This is different from the Egyptian belief that the king was a god himself, you moron. Yes, I was raised as a Catholic, but again I am not religious person at all. I make my basis on simple scientific and scholarly knowledge especially in a forum like this. You fail to do the same and instead repeat anti-zionist propaganda. Please don't barf to me about 'Africana' because you are not an Africanist but a white gay nazi. Are you not?
quote:duh....ancient Israel and the Apartheid state today are not the same - so stop trying to sneak in comparisons you philipoo devil
LOL Well, the only comparison I made which is a fair one is that both states are founded on the Jewish faith. You still haven't explained to me how Israel is "apartheid". And well you know what they say, the devil is a liar. So why lie and say I am the devil when you're the only one lying. They also say the devil is about hate and animosity. Well, there is non other here except you. Oh, isn't there the belief the devil is an enemy of Israel. Wow, all these descriptions sound like you! LOL
quote:Ok Mary. What is Zionism and how is it different from Vosters ideology? Please Mary no more running.
LMAO I've never in my life ran from anyone let alone bigotted loser trolls like you ruining a good forum.
I fail to see the synonymity of the two. Oh, and please stop calling me 'Mary' since it is YOU who gets penetrated and not me. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I'm gonna ignore the rotten troll's brain-damaged comments for a while to get back to the topic.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: There's no question here. The English word "Hebrew" derives from the Canaanitish word עִ בְ רִ י whose root is עֵ בֶ ר
For the Author, listeners, and readers of the Hebrew literature `Eber was an etiologic eponymous figure See here Kaplan's notes:
quote: Hebrews (Cf. Targum Yonathan; Ibn Ezra). Literally, 'the sons of Eber' (see Genesis 10:24, 11:14). In Hebrew, 'Hebrews' are Ivri'im, literally, 'Eberites,' or 'Sons of Eber.'
Others, however, translate this verse, 'sons of all who live on the other side of the river' (Rashi; Ramban).
Had I time, I'd compose a response somewhat similar to this:
quote: According to the article by R. Laird Harris, in TWOT (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament), Vol. 2, p. 643, "The biblical record quite definitely indicates 'ibri is derived from Eber, the name of one of Shem's sons (Gen 10:21; 11:14, 16). Abraham is identified as a descendant of Shem, of Eber's line (Gen 11:26)." 'ibri is used of the descendants of Eber, through Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, by which the covenant people were designated. It apparently used by non-Israelites as a derogatory term to indicate "stranger, non-native, alien." TWOT thus indicates that BDB (contra KB (Koehler and Baumgartner) derives the term from 'abar with the connotation of "one from beyond," "from the other side." Hence, the idea of "stranger, non-native, alien," etc.
by Bryant J. Williams III
Interesting. So 'Hebrew' is etymologically tied to an eponymous name then.
quote:Abraham was called a hebrew (yonderer) because to the one calling him so he was from beyond or across the River. That's literally speaking. Metaphysical wise, Abraham was called Hebrew because he was a Beyonder as far as expression of a deity beyond representation of any human made idol.
This concept was beyond what those around Abraham thought of the deity though some peoples elsewhere may have had an unfathomable deity. The difference being Abraham's deity was approachable. Other peoples who recognize an unfathomable deity generally belief that deity is remote, unreachable, and uncaring and those they devote themselves to lesser powers.
Interesting. So therefore, Abraham's deity was definitely not like those of the Egyptians in that it was abstract and without form unlike the myriad Egyptian gods who were symbolized by human or animal representations or the sun or moon. If one were to give an Egyptian equivalent I would say it would Amun since that particular deity is called 'hidden' yet it is still portrayed as as a crowned man. Rather the etymology may be a reference to his relationship with mortals as being remote, as the second aspect you describe as being different from Abraham's god Takruri. Egyptian deities were always kept remote and unaccessed by common people and only the priesthood and royals were allowed contact with the deity. This was different with the Israelite god.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:So let me again correct you. What I denied was that Greece "stole" their philosophy from Egypt
You lying sack of s**t, you argued more than the use of the word "stolen". You said emphatically that "Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt!" In other words Not Out of Africa! This is why you use Jewess Lefkowitz strawman arguments, not any substansive engagement with his book. The ball is still in your court Mary, refute James if you will!
But we all know why you can't get past Lefkotiwz strawman, why too you are now trying to modify your position (debating only semantics of "stolen")but too late for edit button! LOLOL
quote:Non-sequitor. Modelled depictions are different from actual religious concepts or motifs. You said that the very concept of cherubim or angels in general came from Egypt yet speaking of winged Egyptian goddesses is not proof.
Poor you. You continue with your silly denials because you are clueless as to the description of the Ark of the convenant and the Egyptian models. [Afrikan Woman: The Original Guardian Angel, Dr. Ishakamusa Barashango] you can dismiss this too as yet another silly Afrocentic book, but you'll be changing your tune (as you are doing now with James) in the next couple exchanges I bet. LOL
quote:Nope. I just admit you are a pathetic nutcase with no case in terms of your claims. The Israelite god is not an Egyptian god or the 'Aten' if that is what you think.
Yep, not man enough to admit you are a LIAR, Mary. But like your Not Out of Africa claim, the lies you try to pass off as my positions are there for all to see.
quote:You realize that Yahweh's attributes were compared to a number of things not just the sun.
So too the Egyptian! moron. LOL
quote:Of course the kingship was intimately tied with the priesthood because as with other Asiatic cultures, the king was to act as an imediatary with the deity. This is different from the Egyptian belief that the king was a god himself
Again, this simply means you don't know s**t about ancient religious structures and divine kingship. Israelite Yahweh was represented/symbolized/manifested by sun, king, priests, ark.
And you contradict yourself again as you say unlike the Israelites "Egyptian deities were always kept remote" But prey tell Mary, if the common people had access to Yahweh why did they need an intermediatary? LOLOL and did the common people have access to the Ark/Yahweh's rep on earth? LOLOL
quote: Well, the only comparison I made which is a fair one is that both states are founded on the Jewish faith.
LOLOLOL Again you don't know what the hell you are talking about! Zionism is a secular/nationalist ideology not a religous movement! This is why you have to go for dictionary.com definitions (how pathetic is that!!!) and not books on the subject: Pappe, Brenner, Schoenman et al. Mary you are not in my league.
quote: I'm gonna ignore the rotten troll's brain-damaged comments for a while to get back to the topic.
Yes, run along now because your s**t has been exposed again Catholic philipoo! LOLOOLOL
quote:Interesting. So therefore, Abraham's deity was definitely not like those of the Egyptians
LOL Trying to use great sage to change subject eh? LOLOL
but:
Abharam's god = semitic el
Moses god = Egyptian.
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The above post makes no sense. The Israelites were a documented historical people who were nomads who inhabited the same area as the sedentary Canaanites whom they later conquered or absorbed. The Israelis did not 'steal' the culture of the Canaanites, but they definitely borrowed alot from them even though they had their own religion and culture. Was the ancestral figure of 'Abraham' non existent and purely fiction? That may be a matter of conjecture but at least there is a very possibility he was real, even though he is also the supposed spiritual ancestor of Arabs and others who profess today's monotheist faiths. The kingdom of Israel and its people were definitely real and recorded in history for many centuries not only by the Israelis themselves but their neighbors and other peoples including the Greeks and Romans.
What did NOT exist is the state of 'Palestine' which was the one created in 1948 merely as a knee-jerk reaction to the revival of the Jewish Israeli state!
There was no "Jewish Israeli state" before 1948.
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: True monotheism, my dimwit friend, is the acknowledgement of one deity only. Of course this happened much later on in Israelite history long after Egypt.
Please cite your evidence...
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ I'm sorry but you will get no answer to your posts. Mary went out on a limb on this one and can't recover. LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ In your depraved dreams...
quote:Originally posted by akoben: You lying sack of s**t, you argued more than the use of the word "stolen". You said emphatically that "Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt!" In other words Not Out of Africa! This is why you use Jewess Lefkowitz strawman arguments, not any substansive engagement with his book. The ball is still in your court Mary, refute James if you will!
My, what's with the profanity? Frustrated I see. No doubt you will be even more after this...
Yes, Greek philosophy in so-called 'Classical' times did not come from Egypt but was developed in Greece. This is not to say Egypt had no influence at all in Greek philsophy as significant aspects of Greek culture have their roots in Egypt but at a much earlier period than Classical times. And their definitely was no cultural "theft" as you claim since the Greeks were quite honest about the origin of their traditions.
Again, if you want to talk more about this particular issue you can discuss it in the appropriate thread here. No doubt you won't since that is not your interest at all really.
quote:But we all know why you can't get past Lefkotiwz strawman, why too you are now trying to modify your position (debating only semantics of "stolen")but too late for edit button! LOLOL
LOL I never cited Mary Lefkowitz in the first place, confounded one! It was YOU who brought her up in the first place. I merely stated a historical fact well known to those with basic knowledge in Hellenistic history, let alone Egyptian history! So despite your usual silly assumptions, nope there's no need for my to modify anything about my position. James is wrong because Greek scholars did not "steal" anything from the Library of Alexandria when Alexander conquered Egypt. Why? Because there was no Library of Alexandria or Alexandria itself until it was founded by Alexander, moron! There is nothing semantical about it. Forget the edit button; it's too bad they don't have logic button for you.
quote:Poor you. You continue with your silly denials because you are clueless as to the description of the Ark of the convenant and the Egyptian models. [Afrikan Woman: The Original Guardian Angel, Dr. Ishakamusa Barashango] you can dismiss this too as yet another silly Afrocentic book, but you'll be changing your tune (as you are doing now with James) in the next couple exchanges I bet. LOL[/b]
Again, I never denied that the cherubim figures featured on the ark of the covenant was derived from Egyptian winged goddess figures since the ark itself is derived from Egyptian religious iconography. What I dismiss is your original claim that the very concept of cherubim or angels in general come from wing Egyptian goddesses when they are entirely different concepts!
So you can give a rest citing Africanist authors when we all know you don't really care about their work but only what you can find or think you can find out of it that can somehow discredit ancient Israelite religion or culture since you hate Jews so much.
quote:[qb]Yep, not man enough to admit you are a LIAR, Mary. But like your Not Out of Africa claim, the lies you try to pass off as my positions are there for all to see.
LMAO My, you are a funny one! Again my refutation of Jame's claims have nothing to do with Lefkowitz but stem from basic historical fact. What makes your rantings even more hilarious is that I and the other intelligent posters have critiqed Lefkowitz's work in this forum many times in the past. And we all agree that her book Not Out of Africa is just the typical silly Eurocentric apologia which seeks to deny any Egyptian (African) contribution to Greece, despite the historical contrary! So no, I have never supported Lefkowitz's work and of course I am not her. So you can stop with the silly female name-calling. Perhaps that's the kind of pillow-talk you get from your boyfriends, but calling me "Mary" does not turn me.
quote:So too the Egyptian! moron. LOL
What do you mean by the Egyptian?! Last time I checked the Egyptians worshipped a multitude of deities! LMAO Who is really the moron in here? Obviously you!
quote:Again, this simply means you don't know s**t about ancient religious structures and divine kingship. Israelite Yahweh was represented/symbolized/manifested by sun, king, priests, ark.
ROTFL There you go again projecting your ignorance on to others! I know about ancient religions well enough to know that the Israelite Yahweh was a spirit abstract and not directly symbolized or manifested by any object or people. The sun in the sky like the moon etc. are his creations just like people. The ark only symbolized his covenant hence the name 'Ark of the Covenant. The King is a chosen leader favored by Yaweh to lead the people and not divine in his own right, and the priests are well, priests!
I mean wow, talk about making stuff up. It's obvious it's YOU who likes to pull things out his ass. Perhaps something you enjoy doing with your boyfriends at home, but that won't fly here in a scholarly forum.
quote:And you contradict yourself again as you say unlike the Israelites "Egyptian deities were always kept remote" But prey tell Mary, if the common people had access to Yahweh why did they need an intermediatary? LOLOL and did the common people have access to the Ark/Yahweh's rep on earth? LOLOL
By intermediary, I meant the king as a leader can capitulate with the deity on behalf of his people as a whole that doesn't mean the people themselves don't have access to the deity through their own prayers and offerings in temples, nitwit! And the ark is NOT Yahweh, as explained above. LOL
quote:LOLOLOL Again you don't know what the hell you are talking about! Zionism is a secular/nationalist ideology not a religous movement! This is why you have to go for dictionary.com definitions (how pathetic is that!!!) and not books on the subject: Pappe, Brenner, Schoenman et al. Mary you are not in my league.
LOL Zionism is a nationalist ideology yes but definitely not secular as the Jewish nationalism was based on founding a state for themselves free from religious persecution, moron! It's obvious I know what I'm talking about but YOU don't!
I don't need a dictionary to know what it means, but merely provided YOU with one. Zionism has a simple definition and is not some complex "conspiracy" dilemma as you and others warped by Jewish hatred believe!
quote:Yes, run along now because your s**t has been exposed again Catholic philipoo! LOLOOLOL
Again, I'm not a religous person, and religion has nothing to do with this topic. The issue is scholarship So what if I was brought up as a Catholic. You were brought up as an Anglican but that obviously hasn't stopped you from engaging in sodomy with your boyfriends, now has it?
quote:LOL Trying to use great sage to change subject eh? LOLOL
What great sage?? What?? I'm not changing the subject, I'm actually trying to get back to it, you idiot! It is you who tries to change the subject with your talk of Greece and Lefkowitz.
quote:but:
Abharam's god = semitic el
Moses god = Egyptian.
'El' means god or deity in general in Northwest Semitic languages, you fool! And we already went over how the Israelite god is not Egyptian unless you want to repeat the whole Aten nonsense again to go around in circles!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: There was no "Jewish Israeli state" before 1948.
Of course not, but there was a Jewish Israelite state in ancient times. Of course modern Israel and the ancient Kingdom of Israel are two different nation-states of two different time periods founded by two different peoples with the latter being founded by Europeans, but both are established at least in principle by the same religous traditions.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: True monotheism, my dimwit friend, is the acknowledgement of one deity only. Of course this happened much later on in Israelite history long after Egypt.
Please cite your evidence...
One significant piece of evidence is the first of the Ten Commandments which states 'thou shall have no other gods before me' instead of no other gods except me. Which shows the ancient Israelites were originally henotheistic meaning they acknowledged the existence of other gods but worshipped only their own.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
All you intelligent posters in here know that not only is Akobago a silly troll, but he is a member of the resident apres-scee gang of trolls comprised of degenerate homosexual white males with serious neuroses. Akobago is the member who is a crazed anti-zionist biggot who pretends to be an Africanist scholar and only uses Afrocentric or Africanist scholarship to fuel his anti-Jewish agenda. He doesn't really care about African history and culture but will merely find anything in Africanist works that he thinks will somehow debase or discredit Jews in some way religiously and culturally, and this thread is a perfect example of that!
LOL The fool has the nerve to identify me with Mary Lefkowitz when apparently his prejudice self has alot more in common with her! Actually I consider worse-- more of an Eva Braun if you guys out there know what I mean.
If this gay nazi thinks he can hijack a good thread, he thought wrong!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
No doubt Eva Braun will be very peeved and come back with a post full of profanity and nonsense, but in the mean time let's get back to the topic shall we...
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Abraham was called a hebrew (yonderer) because to the one calling him so he was from beyond or across the River. That's literally speaking. Metaphysical wise, Abraham was called Hebrew because he was a Beyonder as far as expression of a deity beyond representation of any human made idol.
This concept was beyond what those around Abraham thought of the deity though some peoples elsewhere may have had an unfathomable deity. The difference being Abraham's deity was approachable. Other peoples who recognize an unfathomable deity generally belief that deity is remote, unreachable, and uncaring and those they devote themselves to lesser powers.
Interesting. So therefore, Abraham's deity was definitely not like those of the Egyptians in that it was abstract and without form unlike the myriad Egyptian gods who were symbolized by human or animal representations or the sun or moon. If one were to give an Egyptian equivalent I would say it would Amun since that particular deity is called 'hidden' yet it is still portrayed as as a crowned man. Rather the etymology may be a reference to his relationship with mortals as being remote, as the second aspect you describe as being different from Abraham's god Takruri. Egyptian deities were always kept remote and unaccessed by common people and only the priesthood and royals were allowed contact with the deity. This was different with the Israelite god.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
No frustration Mary, since I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm merely exposing your BS. It's almost a month and you still haven't refuted the book you dismissed. Still stuck with Lefkowtiz straw men arguments re city of Alexandria that has already been addressed [The Painful Demise of Eurocentrism, Molefi Asante] make this book number three you will run from!
quote:I never denied that the cherubim figures featured on the ark of the covenant was derived from Egyptian winged goddess figures
Jesus Christ. You said, "Please cite evidence that concepts of 'cherubim' are Egptian." for which I replied "I just gave you an example of the Egyptian prototype for Hebrew cherubim dufus." Now I give you the god damn book and you still beating this horse! LOL Your continued ignorance is due to the fact that you never read my sources. Dr. Barashango can clear up your ignorance here but you're too much of a bigot to read an Africanist.
And I don't know why you keep beating the dead horse of Egyptian polytheism versus Hebrew monotheism when you already admitted both Israelites and Egyptians were henotheists. To show just how bankrupt your position is, in order to prove the Hebrews finally settled down to monotheism you cite yet another Egyptian stolen legacy the ten commandments! And even here you don't have a case since long after Moses the masses still lapsed into polytheism.
And the mere fact that you have to use Judeo-Christian apologia, presenting the false dichotomy between Hebrew and Egyptian god concepts, means you are a pro-Jew Catholic philipoo Mary, no scholar: manifestations of the Egyptian one god are seem as polytheism (gods), while manifestations of the Hebrew one god is seen as simple manifestations, not polytheism (gods).
This is typical Christian apologia and ignorance, you catholic philipoo! And I'm not Anglican. LOL
quote:Zionism is a nationalist ideology yes but definitely not secular as the Jewish nationalism was based on founding a state for themselves free from religious persecution, moron! It's obvious I know what I'm talking about but YOU don't!
No you don't know what you're talking about Mary and the more you reply the more foolish and ignorant you look. Hertzl was a Marxist atheist, no connection to Jewish faith. Zionism is a secular nationalist ideology model on other European ones. Hence your ignorance "both states are founded on the Jewish faith." exposed! LOL
quote:'El' means god or deity in general in Northwest Semitic languages
Yeh, so what? That's my point. Jews stole gods from Egypt and near east. Before Moses Egyptian one god from Akhnaton he was known as Elshaddai. So why your frustration? LOL
quote:And we already went over how the Israelite god is not Egyptian
You've done no such thing. In fact all your pro-Jew endeavourers to find "difference" you keep coming back to Egyptian concepts.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Confused Mary
state of 'Palestine' which was the one created in 1948 merely as a knee-jerk reaction to the revival (key word "revival") of the Jewish Israeli state! – Mary
There was no "Jewish Israeli state" before 1948. - Nay-Sayer
Of course not – Mary
both states are founded on the Jewish faith – Mary
modern Israel and the ancient Kingdom of Israel are two different nation-states of two different time periods founded by two different peoples - Mary
Comment: How can there be a "revival" of something that didn't exsist before? LOLOL
there are winged deities usually goddess figures, but this is striking different from the cherubim and other angelic figures of Israelites –Mary
I never denied that the cherubim figures featured on the ark of the covenant was derived from Egyptian winged goddess figures - Mary
Comment: Admit Hebrew Cherubim derived from Egypt yet deny it at the same time. LOLOLOL
Updated version of "both states are founded on the Jewish faith" after it was pointed out to his dumba** that Zionism is not a "faith".
both are established at least in principle by the same religous traditions. – Mary
Comment: Zionism is a secular nationalist movement not based on any religion.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
A prayer Israelites and Jews have said as a collectivity at least 2,000,000 times since the destruction of Judea by the Romans.
quote: ... set up the banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth soon unto our own land. Blessed are You, Lord who will gather in the dispersed of your people Israel.
. . . .
Build up Zion speedily in our days for all time.
from the 10th and 14th blessings of the `Amiydah as in David de Sola Pool Book of Prayer: according to the custom of the Spanish&Portuguese Jews
Secular Zionism is indeed nationalist and has a religious base.
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:Of course not, but there was a Jewish Israelite state in ancient times. Of course modern Israel and the ancient Kingdom of Israel are two different nation-states of two different time periods founded by two different peoples with the latter being founded by Europeans, but both are established at least in principle by the same religous traditions.
I believe that calling the Ancient Israelite confederation a "nation-state" is a bit of a stretch. Hell, that may even apply to the modern Jewish nation-state.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ]One significant piece of evidence is the first of the Ten Commandments which states 'thou shall have no other gods before me' instead of no other gods except me. Which shows the ancient Israelites were originally henotheistic meaning they acknowledged the existence of other gods but worshipped only their own.
How is that evidence of "true monotheism"?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: A prayer Israelites and Jews have said as a collectivity at least 2,000,000 times since the destruction of Judea by the Romans.
quote: ... set up the banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth soon unto our own land. Blessed are You, Lord who will gather in the dispersed of your people Israel.
. . . .
Build up Zion speedily in our days for all time.
from the 10th and 14th blessings of the `Amiydah as in David de Sola Pool Book of Prayer: according to the custom of the Spanish&Portuguese Jews
Secular Zionism is indeed nationalist and has a religious base.
I know it is common place for you jew apologists to try and find a religious base for Zionism as the Marxist/atheist/fascist roots of the ideology is somewhat of an embarrassment.
But the ideology that created the colonial state today - Zionism - is based on Hertzl, not the ramblings ("prayer") of white man from England.
Oh BTW according to Israeli scholars themselves there was no Jewish exile. Like Egyptian slavery and the Nazi holocaust "Jewish people's exile from its land never happened" Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
A prayer Israelites and Jews have said as a collectivity at least 2,000,000 times since the destruction of Judea by the Romans.
quote: ... set up the banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth soon unto our own land. Blessed are You, Lord who will gather in the dispersed of your people Israel.
. . . .
Build up Zion speedily in our days for all time.
from the 10th and 14th blessings of the `Amiydah as in David de Sola Pool Book of Prayer: according to the custom of the Spanish&Portuguese Jews
Secular Zionism is indeed nationalist and has a religious base.
Again the prayer is nearly 2000 years old and every community of Israelites and Jews from Morocco to Manipur has said it three times a day over that entire span of time. Zionism has been a part of Hokmath Yisrael for 19 centuries.
Amazing how Rome erected a monument for a deed it didn't accomplish
And that's all the undeserved attention you get from me this week.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: A prayer Israelites and Jews have said as a collectivity at least 2,000,000 times since the destruction of Judea by the Romans.
quote: ... set up the banner to gather our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth soon unto our own land. Blessed are You, Lord who will gather in the dispersed of your people Israel.
. . . .
Build up Zion speedily in our days for all time.
from the 10th and 14th blessings of the `Amiydah as in David de Sola Pool Book of Prayer: according to the custom of the Spanish&Portuguese Jews
Secular Zionism is indeed nationalist and has a religious base.
Of course, my point exactly. And to Eva Braun's discomfort.
quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer: I believe that calling the Ancient Israelite confederation a "nation-state" is a bit of a stretch. Hell, that may even apply to the modern Jewish nation-state.
How is that a stretch when the confederation was further solidified under a central government and monarchy?? How is it a stretch for modern Israel??! Do you even know what a nation state is??
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One significant piece of evidence is the first of the Ten Commandments which states 'thou shall have no other gods before me' instead of no other gods except me. Which shows the ancient Israelites were originally henotheistic meaning they acknowledged the existence of other gods but worshipped only their own.
How is that evidence of "true monotheism"?
That was my point! The ancient Israelites were not true monotheists at first, but gradually became so.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I'm gonna ignore Eva's angry rants for now, since it is apparent my last response whooped his sorry degenerate nazi butt so to speak.
But Takruri is right that he deserves no further attention, but in the mean time I hope someone can get the title book of this thread so this thread can move along more.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:I'm gonna ignore Eva's angry rants for now, since it is apparent my last response whooped his sorry degenerate nazi butt so to speak.
LOL Poor ole delusional Mary.
quote:Again the prayer is nearly 2000 years old and every community of Israelites and Jews from Morocco to Manipur has said it three times a day over that entire span of time. Zionism has been a part of Hokmath Yisrael for 19 centuries. Amazing how Rome erected a monument for a deed it didn't accomplish
Oh my god! As proof of the historicity of the exile story you post hoary Jew ramblings about bringing people in from the four corners of the earth – newsflash jewboy the earth is round! LOL – and a Roman commemoration of the capture of Jerusalem which no one denied! This reminds me of Egyptian depictions of captured Asiatic enemies interpreted as "proof" of Hebrew enslavement. Like I said, when it comes to your Jewness all science and reason gets thrown out the window.
Now you throw in - as a bonus – chants from a religious offshoot of Judaism that began in the 1930s as "proof" that the Zionism that created the Apartheid state today is a religious movement?!! ROFL Well lets drop all rules of scientific verification, shall we, and just read old scriptures. LOLOLOL No wonder you have to run each time your pro-jewness is put to the test you pseudo-scholar.
What you are confusing is the age old Jewish desire of a return to "Zion" with Hertzl's secular colonial project. As I recall, initially religious Zionism did not buy into Hertzl's scheme since he was 1) a Marxist atheist and 2) they saw the party as begining after - or shortly before or whatever - the return of the party boy, the "messiah". There are still religious Jews who see Israel as an abomination of sorts.
Again, this is not the same as Hertzl's imperialist project that was carried out with secular Jewish money (bankers, financiers) and carried with genocidal itentions/proportions against the Palestinians/natives (reminiscent of Boers in South Africa and whites in America) as documented by likes of Prof. Pappe et al.
quote:That was my point! The ancient Israelites were not true monotheists at first, but gradually became so.
Mary doing what she does best! LOL Notice how our artful dodging Mary the flying nun still has not answered the questioned posed by Nay-Sayer?! HAHAHAHHAHA Jesus Christ dude grow some balls and own up your BS for once!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Sorry Eva, but all questions were answered while you still squirm and writhe in denial. And everybody reading this thread knows that but YOU.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
^^^ DJ, akoben possibly =argyle.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I don't think so. Not only are their writing styles different but so too are their M.O.s
Argyle just nitpicks anything a poster says that he thinks is some sort of transgression and criticizes him for it; whereas Akobago just rants on about Jews like Mel Gibson's daddy and pretends to be an Africanist scholar only citing Afrocentric works that he thinks somehow discredits Jewish religion or culture.
Both obviously have psychological issues and both seem to have intimate relations with each other as well as the she-male Bettyboo and the retard Xyzman, as shown in here.
Posted by Knowledgeiskey718 (Member # 15400) on :
quote:Both obviously have psychological issues and both seem to have intimate relations with each other as well as the she-male Bettyboo and the retard Xyzman, as shown in here.
^^^Yes yes, if they're not the same, they're obviously part of the same team. "The culprits". Their styles are similar but to a certain degree they differ.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Well you kind of expect that from a group of people who are friends or closer.
The problem is that without any moderators this forum is left to deal with the disease that they are.
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
^ Actually though this forum's traffic has dipped year on year by about 22.1% (mainly because y'all vets got fed up with the forum around this time last year) - due to the recent extensive activity of the apres-scee gang and the subsequent beatings they recieved, compete.com reckons egyptsearch.com's traffic has gone up by a good 76.5% in the past one month!
LMAO @ the losers projecting their defeat unto others. I'm sorry but Mary, you can dodge your responsibilities re James' book and Egyptian origins of Hebrew concepts all you want, but Nay-Sayer will come back and press you to answer his question you clearly ran from. Monotheism and the Hebrews – when did they "gradually became so"? During Moses time, or after, when? So save your projecting and get busy or just admit you didn't know what the f**k you were talking about.
I suspect, however, that if he's not tired of chasing you, it will end up with you equating Nay-sayer with other posters in order to deflect attention from your beat down yet again. LOL
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Interestingly enough Jewish lore claims Brahmins are descended from Abraham's sons of the concubine(s) whom he, laden with gifts but not inheritances, sent eastward to the east countries.
Very interesting indeed.
quote: Brahmins feature extensively in Buddhist canonical texts i.e. the Tripitaka, and are found among the chief disciples of the Buddha. The Brahmana Varga (section on Brahmins) contained in the Dhammapada lists down the Buddha's views on Brahmins[29] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin#Brahmins_in_Buddhism
Might there be a direct relationship between Buddhism/Hinduism and Judaism? Does the concept of Brahman fit into Judaism?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
What is this Apres-scee gang? BTW. Who got the beating? You call a one-liner a beating.
Knowledge who is confused. DJ the parrot who doesn't have ONE original idea. And Rasol the LIAR. You call THAT a beat down.
Again jackasses. INTERPRET the data correctly. Sure it not newbies looking for info rather than sadistic voyeurs. What proof do you have that it is the Whites New to Europe thread that is generating that traffic.
Looking closer. It is telling you two know nothing about analysis. Look at keywords used-- black egyptians-- - NOW TELL ME WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE. This DJ is such a dumby.
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: ^ Actually though this forum's traffic has dipped year on year by about 22.1% (mainly because y'all vets got fed up with the forum around this time last year) - due to the recent extensive activity of the apres-scee gang and the subsequent beatings they recieved, compete.com reckons egyptsearch.com's traffic has gone up by a good 76.5% in the past one month!
Are you East Indian. What's with this new age Nirvana stuff you seem to keep pushing. Or one of those cousins who like this new age stuff.
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Interestingly enough Jewish lore claims Brahmins are descended from Abraham's sons of the concubine(s) whom he, laden with gifts but not inheritances, sent eastward to the east countries.
Very interesting indeed.
quote: Brahmins feature extensively in Buddhist canonical texts i.e. the Tripitaka, and are found among the chief disciples of the Buddha. The Brahmana Varga (section on Brahmins) contained in the Dhammapada lists down the Buddha's views on Brahmins[29] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin#Brahmins_in_Buddhism
Might there be a direct relationship between Buddhism/Hinduism and Judaism? Does the concept of Brahman fit into Judaism?
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:Both obviously have psychological issues and both seem to have intimate relations with each other as well as the she-male Bettyboo and the retard Xyzman, as shown in here.
^^^Yes yes, if they're not the same, they're obviously part of the same team. "The culprits". Their styles are similar but to a certain degree they differ.
Both do seem to have the same predetermined but misguided belief about what we (people interested in Africa, real Africanists, and folks who accept the fact that Kemet was African) are.
In my thread ["Black Skin Defined"] when he just started posting one of the apres-scee was caught off guard by the fact that Supercar was opposed to his historical [and racist] revisionism.
The faux-afrocentrist gang member responeded in a manner that reveals what he really thinks: he pre-supposes that "afrocentrism" - or a so-called afrocentric view of Egypt as held here - IS [racist africanist] revisionist history and therefore that Supercar et al would listen with open ears to his revisionism as far as the Jewish holocaust goes.
Argyle seems to think the same thing (that we're simple and deluded). His rather simplistic function is thus: A.) Define what he thinks to be an all-important cornerstone (or un-brakeable rule) of [what he likes to think of as] our particular brand of Afrocentrism. B.) Lash out at anyone who "hypocritically deviates" just as [he thinks] we have 'lashed out' at others for doing so in the past..
2 Examples:
1.) I'm sure he's noticed that we scrutinize when ever people try to divide Africans with no legitame (genetic, historical, etc) basis. He now lashes out at anyone who mentions perfectly valid geographic regions of Africa (Northern, Southern, Eastern, etc). Any of us who has been posting for a while could easily embarass him but no one cares enough.
2.) Whenever we've put a geneticist's comment or something similar to scrutiny and later quoted from a work that has that same geneticists name on it he calls us hypocrites.
Though he has deviated in recent posts and now also spews more flameout tantrums (in light of his expose).
This shows you they clearly aren't paying attention to the geneticists' work but instead just expect us to show an imagined simplistic 'afrocentric' behavior like forever being opposed to a geneticist simply because someone disagreed with a thing the scientist said (or a study s/he was associated with ... regardless of the fact that we cite evidence from other scientific works, rebuttals, etc).
This is actually what lame internet armchair idiots do, and so things like these are likely just projection on their part. Take idiot arguments like: "Keita is a black Afrocentrist and therefore is biased" for example. (notwithstanding the fact his samples in works we cite are gathered by and reviewed by peers who happen to be white, or that many other geneticists historically were white)
They don't know that we aren't so simplistic and misguided. They don't know that we know science is about thinking, not just acceptance (or allegences). Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
So what is the LOGIC behind the practice of polygamy? Is it just the reality that it is [potentially] a more pleasant state of affairs?
Is there a metaphysical explanation for it?
Is it compliant with nature's implicit regulations?
quote:"THE SACRED AND MOST HOLY TORAH SANCTIONS POLYGAMY"
When we read about the HEBREW PROPHETS and SAGES of the past in any section of the most SACRED TORAH [Hebrew Bible, Five Books Of Moses, Pentateuch, and even Old Testament] we find that they were married to many wives, thereby maintaining POLYGAMOUS UNIONS. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and other biblical personalities had many wives. Of course the master of this practice [according to the same source], was KING SOLOMON of Israel. He had at least "...ONE THOUSAND WIVES AND CONCUBINES...." This is shown in the religious book of our past history. And that was done by the man Hebrew and Christian, equally moslem, Re- ligious History claimed to have been "...THE WISEST KING THAT EVER LIVED..." But if he was "...THE WISEST KING THAT EVER LIVED...," then we can understand the reason why the Falasha, Yemenite and Cochin Jews maintain the biblical practive of POLYGAMY; for it is the conduct of "WISE MEN" - according to the MOST SACRED SCRIPTURES of biblical history...
quote: The faux-afrocentrist gang member responeded in a manner that reveals what he really thinks: he pre-supposes that "afrocentrism" - or a so-called afrocentric view of Egypt as held here - IS [racist africanist] revisionist history and therefore that Supercar et al would listen with open ears to his revisionism as far as the Jewish holocaust goes.
I knew you liked sucking the dicks of those you admire on ES but this is a new low for you. Please explain how posting a quote on historical revisionism in general by Prof. Martin translates into me "pre-supposing" that the Africanist view of history is "racist"? If it is that you presuppose holocaust revisionism to be "racist" without refuting the scholarship itself - just as Eurocentrics presuppose Afrocentrism/Africanist revisionism to be racist without being able to refute it, then just say so. But until you can refute them just continue to suck Ausarianstein's dick and don't "presuppose" what are my views re Africanist history, young man.
Show respect for your elders. While you were busy playing dolly house with little tina and trying to finger f**k her I was defending Dr. Ben et al. So have some manners, boy. LOL
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
What's all this about dicks? Maybe you truly are indeed a hand puppet of the same dude who posts as argay. Just so you know, I'm not sorry to say - I don't roll that way. There are probably homo-, tranny-, and *ick obsessed forums you could go to for that indulgement.
Now to the first and second order of business.
1.) I'll do what the f8ck I wanna do.
2.)
quote:don't "presuppose" what are my views re Africanist history, young man.
I think you've said it before:
quote:Originally posted by akoben:
Afrocentrism/Africanist revisionism
Is "Afrocentrism" revisionism in your opinion? What about Africanist history? And if so... How? In what ways? In what context?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Wow, having already accused me of being a phoney re what you think are my views on Afrocentrism, Africanist history and historical revisionism, you then ask me what are my views on said topics?!?!?LOL
Oh boy, I have very bad feeling if you are the future of Africanist scholarship. Conclusions before research.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^Scared to come to a decision now on your own, huh? C'mon! Be bold.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
You're vile.
quote:having already accused me of being a phoney
First off, I just make observations, and I've made them about folks here much much realer than you.
Other than those big bad Jews, your only agenda on here seems to be to go from thread to thread bringing up old beefs you got with [blank] - fill in with anyone but a few trolls - who you seem to often interrupt from beatdowns (accept argyle -less often with him).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Buddhism is a "protest" against Hinduism.
No relationship between Judaism and Brahminism. In Israelite lore the gifts Abraham gave to the concubines' sons was smidgens of metaphysics.
The Hindus are responsible for Brahminism without any verifiable input from the Levant. However, I have read some literature penned by Indians where they follow up on Brahmins (who are of various phenotypes) as originating from the westward of the sub-continent.
quote: "Hebrews and Rigveda: Let us first understand the real nature of the Rig Veda. As observed by Sri D.P.Mishra, "Both Devdasa and Sudasa belonged to the tribe of the Bharatas or T?tsu-Bharatas and won a number of victories over their Dasa and Aryan enemies. It is their wars and victories which have been repeatedly sung by their priests in the Rig Veda, and we have therefore no hesitation in naming it as (p.56) 'Bharata-Veda' or the Veda of the Bharatas and the Bharatas themselves as the Rigvedic Aryans. If the Rigveda supposed to deal with the entry of the Aryans into India, we would like to argue that it deals only with the entry of Bharatas ..." 34 [34. Studies in the Proto-History of India", D.P.Mishra, p.133]" (Shukla 1979, p.55)
Further, "Bharata was the first king according to Jaina traditions" (Shukla 1979, p.56)
"Now let us consider the word "Bharata'. This word is formed from the Sanskrit 'Bhara', which under the sway of the rule of vowelization (Prothesis), may assume the form 'Ibhar', 'Iber', 'Ibhray', 'Ibhri', 'Ibri', 'Ibrini' etc. which have been equated with the term Hebrew." (Shukla 1979, p.56) He then continues:
"[T]he Hebrews may be related to the Rigvedic Aryan tribes of Bharatas ... In this way, we can confidently say that the statement 'Rigveda is essentially the Bharata-Veda', means that it is the 'Veda of the Hebrews'. It is hence no wonder to find close similarity between the Rigveda and the Holy Bible." (Shukla 1979, p.56)
There are indications in Manu's code that would lead one to believe that in earlier days Brahmins were of one phenotype.
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: Might there be a direct relationship between Buddhism/Hinduism and Judaism? Does the concept of Brahman fit into Judaism?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I own the book. So what do you mean? Somebody else who has it and can review/analyze/critique/discuss/ it with me?.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ... but in the mean time I hope someone can get the title book of this thread so this thread can move along more.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): ^Scared to come to a decision now on your own, huh? C'mon! Be bold.
LOL you evasive queer, that's my whole point! You didn't, and still don't, know what the hell you are talking about. I am not the one who has the explaining to do as I already made my positions clear re the above topics in the holocaust debate beat down your boyfriend received. You were the one who read them remember? Now you made your "observations". Thus the onus now is on you to back up your allegations re my alleged views on Afrocentism/Africanist history being "racist" revisionism. Do you see historical, especially holocaust, revisionism as "racist" and why? Don't try to spin this on me now, boy, I lived long enough to know a p***y when I see one. I told you already you seem like that guy at school who never had an identity of his own - always wanted to fit in. Always wanting to be accepted by the "in" crowd eh Alive? The "much much realer" (LOL) guys eh? Your life in high school must have been truly frustrating.
Now run along and do some independent research for once in your f**king life and tell me, "If it is that you presuppose holocaust revisionism to be "racist" without refuting the scholarship itself...then just say so." explain and give examples for your positions. Or just face it man you were talking out of your a** in support of your boyfriend Ausarianstein.
Oh BTW great sage, am I still on "ignore"?
LOL you fake a** jew-first "Africanist".
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO I see Eva's psychotic projection has turned violent. Well...
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I own the book. So what do you mean? Somebody else who has it and can review/analyze/critique/discuss/ it with me?.
Well I was hoping then if no one else has it you can share more to discuss or something rather then let the perverted rabid troll take reign in this thread. It's your thread.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Ako: I lived long enough to know a p***y when I see one.
That's good to know.
quote:I already made my positions clear re the above topics in the holocaust debate beat down your boyfriend received.
Idiot: reread the posts, no one's going to spoon feed them to you. I didn't ask for your position on the Holocaust.
My allegations were that certain trolls who type as if their effeminate (especially argyle - sounds annyingly like he a 'smart' mouth) type as if they, while pretending to be on an Afrocentric side, think little of Afrocentrism.
An onus? I don't have to prove shyit as for your intentions - no one can ever know them but yourself. I asked you a simple question. Don't want to answer it? Fine, you don't have to.
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I own the book. So what do you mean? Somebody else who has it and can review/analyze/critique/discuss/ it with me?.
Well I was hoping then if no one else has it you can share more to discuss or something rather then let the perverted rabid troll take reign in this thread. It's your thread.
I've orderd the book but in the meantime I'm getting my read on on the old 'zon.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): Idiot: reread the posts, no one's going to spoon feed them to you. I didn't ask for your position on the Holocaust.
You evasive clown, your "allegations" weren't in a vacuum. My views re Holocaust revisionism was the whole basis of your "presupposing" of my views re Afrocentrism as "racist" revisionism. Or are you going to be a little p**y and deny that now?
quote:An onus? I don't have to prove shyit as for your intentions - no one can ever know them but yourself.
Not "intentions" queer but my views re Afrocentism as "racist" etc. How did you come to that? And belive me, I'm not looking for you to back up your allegations really, but it's good comic relief seeing you run like a p**y when pressed to do so.
quote:I asked you a simple question. Don't want to answer it? Fine, you don't have to.
LOL Oh jesus, my views re said topics are there for all to see, even you saw them remember? In the thread where your boyfriend got his a** kicked!
I mean how much of a runnng man...or BOY can you be?! did you forget that you actually read my views on revisionism and Afrocentrism, which was what led to your "presupposing" in the first place? Now you ask me again for my views on said topics? LOL
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LMAO I see Eva's psychotic projection has turned violent. Well...
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I own the book. So what do you mean? Somebody else who has it and can review/analyze/critique/discuss/ it with me?.
Well I was hoping then if no one else has it you can share more to discuss or something rather then let the perverted rabid troll take reign in this thread. It's your thread.
What difference would it make? He spoon fed you on James and still you say not out of Africa.
Don't be a hypocrite. You don't care about "Afrocentric" books. LOL
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
^ Dudes, please ignore this person. But be careful to read between his posts for other posts he's trying to hide between his pointless rants.
This topic is nice. I've been reading bits of the book online. Let's stick to our original intent which is to share knowledge about and around this topic (i.e. contents of the book in question).
Can someone please shed some light on the polygamy issue I brought up earlier?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ ah yes aliveboy, ignore me and stay plugged in! LOLOLOL
Posted by Nay-Sayer (Member # 10566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: How is that a stretch when the confederation was further solidified under a central government and monarchy?? How is it a stretch for modern Israel??! Do you even know what a nation state is??
I'm well aware of what constitutes a "nation-state" but fail to see how the Ancient Israelites qualify as being one.
As far as the modern "State" of Israel is concerned, how does it qualify as a "nation-state" when a) it does not have defined borders and b) would cease to exist if not for the financial aid it receives?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That was my point! The ancient Israelites were not true monotheists at first, but gradually became so.
Would you care to give us some evidence that supports this assertion?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ LMAO @ Mary because she thought she got away from Nay-sayer's questions. I told you he'd come back!
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Oh, my polygamy post got lost in the electron shuffle, eh.
Don't recall it all but the gist was
1 - polygamy is natural 2 - polygyny is fine, 1 man can impregnate any number of women 3 - polyandry is not so cool, poor kid'll've no idea who his papi is
Somewhere in the archive we dwelt in depth on polygamy
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: ^ Dudes, please ignore this person. But be careful to read between his posts for other posts he's trying to hide between his pointless rants.
This topic is nice. I've been reading bits of the book online. Let's stick to our original intent which is to share knowledge about and around this topic (i.e. contents of the book in question).
Can someone please shed some light on the polygamy issue I brought up earlier?
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
^ Dude, how in the world can one possibly go about convincing a "modern" woman to consent to that?
I need to know!
In any case I think I'm going to become Jewish!!
How do I convert??? [or join. Currently I'm a Hindu]
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Oh, my polygamy post got lost in the electron shuffle, eh.
Don't recall it all but the gist was
1 - polygamy is natural 2 - polygyny is fine, 1 man can impregnate any number of women 3 - polyandry is not so cool, poor kid'll've no idea who his papi is
Well in the case of polyandry it's no problem at all if the society is matrilineal anyway in which family lineage is reckoned on through the mother, or some patrilineal societies don't care since usually all the husbands come from the same patrilineage.
The main thing though is that polygyny ensures high reproductive rate whereas polyadry does the opposite. This is why polygyny is favored in agricultural and other societies where resources are plenty but many hands are needed to work the land, whereas polyandry is favord in environments where resources are scarce and there is more competition so the fewer the better.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: ^ Dude, how in the world can one possibly go about convincing a "modern" woman to consent to that?
I need to know!
In any case I think I'm going to become Jewish!!
How do I convert??? [or join. Currently I'm a Hindu]
Oh no! This is Eva's (Ako's) wors fear! A new member to the Jewish threat! LOL
Seriously, in this forum it does not matter what religion you are. It's all about scholarship including science, unfortunately idiotic trolls like Eva and others aren't into that so it's a wonder why they are even here other than to make trouble.
Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Oh, my polygamy post got lost in the electron shuffle, eh.
Don't recall it all but the gist was
1 - polygamy is natural 2 - polygyny is fine, 1 man can impregnate any number of women 3 - polyandry is not so cool, poor kid'll've no idea who his papi is
Well in the case of polyandry it's no problem at all if the society is matrilineal anyway in which family lineage is reckoned on through the mother, or some patrilineal societies don't care since usually all the husbands come from the same patrilineage.
The main thing though is that polygyny ensures high reproductive rate whereas polyadry does the opposite. This is why polygyny is favored in agricultural and other societies where resources are plenty but many hands are needed to work the land, whereas polyandry is favord in environments where resources are scarce and there is more competition so the fewer the better.
Interesting. Which explains why just 100 years ago - when things were better in a place like Nigeria - an Yoruba man typically had multiple wives. The rich merchants would have up to 10 wives, sometimes even more. Hori's grandfather apparently had 8. This practice was also known among the Hindus, the caste of the rich merchants.
Contrast with the high rates in Western poor neighbourhoods where there is a tendency for a "noticable amount" [don't have the stats] of mothers whose children have different fathers. In extreme cases it's a new dad for each child.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Seriously, in this forum it does not matter what religion you are. It's all about scholarship including science
Science and scholarship like your flip floping on the content of James' book, Hebrew religious concepts and inability to answer Nay-sayer's questions? LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I've orderd the book but in the meantime I'm getting my read on on the old 'zon.
Thanks, Sauron!
quote:Eva Braun wrote: What difference would it make? He spoon fed you on James and still you say not out of Africa.
Don't be a hypocrite. You don't care about "Afrocentric" books. LOL
LMAO This is hilarious coming from YOU. First of all, I read James book years before your ass even heard of it. Second of all, it is YOU who does not care about Afrocentrist or any kind of scholarship! All you care about is bashing Jews. I don't have a problem with that but could you at least do it in a neo-nazi forum or something. Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
When are you going to stop with this "scholarship" gig? No one buys it. We all have been waiting weeks now for you to live up to your obligations re refuting a book you dismissed as not "real evidence", "silly" and "Afrocentric". Don't forget you're required also to support your assertions re Hebrews finally settling down to monotheism. Great Sage spoon feeds, Doug tells you to stand on your own and Nay-Sayer repeats his questions yet you run around this forum projecting your fakery onto others. Why? You think we will forget your inability to confront your ignorance? Come now Mary, lets get to work.
Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt! – Mary
there are winged deities usually goddess figures, but this is striking different from the cherubim and other angelic figures of Israelites – Mary
I never denied that the cherubim figures featured on the ark of the covenant was derived from Egyptian winged goddess figures - Mary
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Consent to what? I've had two serial wives who insisted that I take my concubines from their friends no less. OK, they weren't so happy with my independent choice of concubines. It's much easier in the family when your wife and your sweethearts are friends (because their children are all going to be siblings of one another anyway so the mothers might as well be able to get along).
Would you like to get in touch with the Indian (hailing from Malabar coast and nearby regions) Jewish community? And, oh, there's some stuff at least on India's Cochin Jews in Dr. Ben's book.
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: ^ Dude, how in the world can one possibly go about convincing a "modern" woman to consent to that?
I need to know!
In any case I think I'm going to become Jewish!!
How do I convert??? [or join. Currently I'm a Hindu]
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: And, oh, there's some stuff at least on India's Cochin Jews in Dr. Ben's book.
You should tell him too that Dr. Ben shows how the various Jewish myths and concepts are stolen from Egypt. Something he should consider when thinking about converting to Hebrew superstituion don't you think? Posted by Lord Sauron (Member # 6729) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Consent to what? I've had two serial wives who insisted that I take my concubines from their friends no less. OK, they weren't so happy with my independent choice of concubines. It's much easier in the family when your wife and your sweethearts are friends (because their children are all going to be siblings of one another anyway so the mothers might as well be able to get along).
Would you like to get in touch with the Indian (hailing from Malabar coast and nearby regions) Jewish community? And, oh, there's some stuff at least on India's Cochin Jews in Dr. Ben's book.
quote:Originally posted by Lord Sauron: ^ Dude, how in the world can one possibly go about convincing a "modern" woman to consent to that?
I need to know!
In any case I think I'm going to become Jewish!!
How do I convert??? [or join. Currently I'm a Hindu]
Ah... I know what you mean. It's difficult finding that balance between being yourself and keeping a truly loved wife happy. They never seem to understand that a man can love many women and still love each one sufficiently. I have been very faithful to my woman for years now but I can't say I'm not often tempted. Have you seen those Black Indian women will long thick jet black hair but with African booty??? MY GOD THEY ARE DANGEROUSLY BEAUTIFUL.
Yes please, put me in touch with the Indian Jewish community. I didn't even know they existed. Are you talking about the Dravidians?? I am a Black Indian by the way.
I'll have a dig in the book for information on the Cochin Jews.
Thank You!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: When are you going to stop with this "scholarship" gig? No one buys it. We all have been waiting weeks now for you to live up to your obligations re refuting a book you dismissed as not "real evidence", "silly" and "Afrocentric". Don't forget you're required also to support your assertions re Hebrews finally settling down to monotheism. Great Sage spoon feeds, Doug tells you to stand on your own and Nay-Sayer repeats his questions yet you run around this forum projecting your fakery onto others. Why? You think we will forget your inability to confront your ignorance? Come now Mary, lets get to work.
Apparently your are too stupid to realize it was just YOU who is refuted and have been for quite some time. And I find it hilarious how you keep calling me out as Catholic when you keep writing the name 'Mary' over and over again! LOL It seems you forgot about the "hail", part.
Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt!
Correct, but I did not deny any Egyptian influence as explained here. Egyptian influence is not the same as saying it is entirely Egyptian and "stolen" from Egypt.
there are winged deities usually goddess figures, but this is striking different from the cherubim and other angelic figures of Israelites
Correct. The concept of angels in Hebrew belief was different from winged goddesses.
I never denied that the cherubim figures featured on the ark of the covenant was derived from Egyptian winged goddess figures
Correct. The way the cherubim were depicted on the covenant was probably modeled off the protective winged goddesses, but that is different from saying the concept of cherubim itself came from Egypt as the Egyptians had no angels. Or are you just too stupid to understand that??
And the Israelite god is NOT the sun god Aten. Despite comparisons to the sun and other objects the Israelite god was NOT any one object.
So Eva, when will get over your own errors and stop calling out to 'Mary' (virgin or Lefkowitz?) Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Why can't you two take this over to the PHILOSOPHY thread where it belongs?
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:I did not deny any Egyptian influence as explained here. Egyptian influence is not the same as saying it is entirely Egyptian and "stolen" from Egypt.
What you have consistently failed to do Mary, and I will keep reminding you, is to back up your initial statement, Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt! and your dismissal of James book! Jesus Christ its been over a month!!!!
quote:The way the cherubim were depicted on the covenant was probably modeled off the protective winged goddesses, but that is different from saying the concept of cherubim itself came from Egypt as the Egyptians had no angels
LMAO @ Mary getting caught up in contradictions after contradictions. If you admit, albeit grudgingly, that the Hebrew cherubim are model off Egyptian winged goddesses, how can you then in the same breath deny the same Hebrew concept came from Egypt?
quote: And the Israelite god is NOT the sun god AtenDespite comparisons to the sun and other objects the Israelite god was NOT any one object
LOL Saying it out loud does not make it true. That is for church, Catholic philipoo, not scholarship. You will have to explain away the fact that based on Hebrew tradition itselfthe first holy books, laws, a god (remember they kept asking Moses who is this god), organized religion/priesthood were introduced by an Egyptian.
So I ask, if he got these "new" things like the ten commandents and ark design from Egypt, where then did the Moses deity in Hebrew lore (LOL) get his god?
Also, by saying Yahweh was not any one object are you saying (admitting really) that he was many?!?!?! LOL
Posted by Explorateur (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
So Eva, when will get over your own errors and stop calling out to 'Mary' (virgin or Lefkowitz?)
More like the latter; Mary Lefkowitz.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^ Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: You should know the link
I don’t know the link, as I don’t know the links to many of your attention whorings (but just know the date you registered) aforementioned in my above post – I’ve only seen some of them in passing and only find links to threads I remember posting in.
You should still PM them about the thread, and post what you have to post there (in the thread).
quote: Why didn't you PM me and address your BS there? LOL [/QB]
Where? All of the links I edited into my post? Because I have better things to do that constantly tail a troll’s every post in all those threads.
Bottom line is it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about, ever. Dependent on Sforza? Rotfl! Look, pup – the focus is on what a person does/says, unlike what you allege.
No where has it ever been said that this person is a Eurocentrist and an enemy – I endorse this person.
Stay exposed.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Wow, you must really love me. I mean instead of tailing my every move, loverboy, you should be just as busy backing up your BS
quote:The faux-afrocentrist gang member responeded in a manner that reveals what he really thinks: he pre-supposes that "afrocentrism" - or a so-called afrocentric view of Egypt as held here - IS [racist africanist] revisionist history and therefore that Supercar et al would listen with open ears to his revisionism as far as the Jewish holocaust goes.
Stay on topic, not on my dick.
quote:Bottom line is it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about, ever. Dependent on Sforza? Rotfl! Look, pup – the focus is on what a person does/says, unlike what you allege.No where has it ever been said that this person is a Eurocentrist and an enemy – I endorse this person.
If you weren't so busy s**king dicks loverboy you would notice I am focusing on what Sforza says re Ethiopians and his racial categories - the latter I don't have a problem with since I'm not the one seeing the construct of "race" as "propaganda"...
And who gives a f**k who you endorse anyway? LOL
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
^^Imagine a homo saying this shyt to my face!
Edit: Oh, for clarity, this should read:
quote:Originally posted by Alive:
No where has it ever been said that: "this person is a Eurocentrist and an enemy – I endorse this person."
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
[whoops, wrong thread]
Posted by Heru-(London's Finest) (Member # 11484) on :
^ akoben is a manic depressive and very very *very* sick person. Don't let him drag you down to his frequency.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian by Jonathan Cook
No one is more surprised than Shlomo Sand that his latest academic work has spent 19 weeks on Israel's bestseller list – and that success has come to the history professor despite his book challenging Israel's biggest taboo.
Dr. Sand argues that the idea of a Jewish nation – whose need for a safe haven was originally used to justify the founding of the state of Israel – is a myth invented little more than a century ago.
An expert on European history at Tel Aviv University, Dr. Sand drew on extensive historical and archaeological research to support not only this claim but several more – all equally controversial.
In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today's Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel and that the only political solution to the country's conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state.
The success of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented? looks likely to be repeated around the world. A French edition, launched last month, is selling so fast that it has already had three print runs.
Translations are under way into a dozen languages, including Arabic and English. But he predicted a rough ride from the pro-Israel lobby when the book is launched by his English publisher, Verso, in the United States next year.
In contrast, he said Israelis had been, if not exactly supportive, at least curious about his argument. Tom Segev, one of the country's leading journalists, has called the book "fascinating and challenging."
Surprisingly, Dr. Sand said, most of his academic colleagues in Israel have shied away from tackling his arguments. One exception is Israel Bartal, a professor of Jewish history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Writing in Haaretz, the Israeli daily newspaper, Dr. Bartal made little effort to rebut Dr. Sand's claims. He dedicated much of his article instead to defending his profession, suggesting that Israeli historians were not as ignorant about the invented nature of Jewish history as Dr. Sand contends.
The idea for the book came to him many years ago, Dr. Sand said, but he waited until recently to start working on it. "I cannot claim to be particularly courageous in publishing the book now," he said. "I waited until I was a full professor. There is a price to be paid in Israeli academia for expressing views of this sort."
Dr. Sand's main argument is that until little more than a century ago, Jews thought of themselves as Jews only because they shared a common religion. At the turn of the 20th century, he said, Zionist Jews challenged this idea and started creating a national history by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from their religion.
Equally, the modern Zionist idea of Jews being obligated to return from exile to the Promised Land was entirely alien to Judaism, he added.
"Zionism changed the idea of Jerusalem. Before, the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. For 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem not because they could not return but because their religion forbade them from returning until the messiah came."
The biggest surprise during his research came when he started looking at the archaeological evidence from the biblical era.
"I was not raised as a Zionist, but like all other Israelis I took it for granted that the Jews were a people living in Judea and that they were exiled by the Romans in 70AD.
"But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends.
"Similarly with the exile. In fact, you can't explain Jewishness without exile. But when I started to look for history books describing the events of this exile, I couldn't find any. Not one.
"That was because the Romans did not exile people. In fact, Jews in Palestine were overwhelming peasants and all the evidence suggests they stayed on their lands."
Instead, he believes an alternative theory is more plausible: the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."
So if there was no exile, how is it that so many Jews ended up scattered around the globe before the modern state of Israel began encouraging them to "return"?
Dr. Sand said that, in the centuries immediately preceding and following the Christian era, Judaism was a proselytizing religion, desperate for converts. "This is mentioned in the Roman literature of the time."
Jews traveled to other regions seeking converts, particularly in Yemen and among the Berber tribes of North Africa. Centuries later, the people of the Khazar kingdom in what is today south Russia, would convert en masse to Judaism, becoming the genesis of the Ashkenazi Jews of central and eastern Europe.
Dr. Sand pointed to the strange state of denial in which most Israelis live, noting that papers offered extensive coverage recently to the discovery of the capital of the Khazar kingdom next to the Caspian Sea.
Ynet, the website of Israel's most popular newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, headlined the story: "Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital." And yet none of the papers, he added, had considered the significance of this find to standard accounts of Jewish history.
One further question is prompted by Dr. Sand's account, as he himself notes: if most Jews never left the Holy Land, what became of them?
"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel's first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."
Dr. Sand attributed his colleagues' reticence to engage with him to an implicit acknowledgement by many that the whole edifice of "Jewish history" taught at Israeli universities is built like a house of cards.
The problem with the teaching of history in Israel, Dr. Sand said, dates to a decision in the 1930s to separate history into two disciplines: general history and Jewish history. Jewish history was assumed to need its own field of study because Jewish experience was considered unique.
"There's no Jewish department of politics or sociology at the universities. Only history is taught in this way, and it has allowed specialists in Jewish history to live in a very insular and conservative world where they are not touched by modern developments in historical research.
"I've been criticized in Israel for writing about Jewish history when European history is my specialty. But a book like this needed a historian who is familiar with the standard concepts of historical inquiry used by academia in the rest of the world."
Posted by meninarmer (Member # 12654) on :
There appears to be an increasing number of Israel scholars and historians releasing books and reports championing this theory abd rejecting the zionist revisionist histories. I agree with the author. Once Israel makes this kind of transition, they may finally have a real chance to obtain peace. Many Israelis feel the same way and the reason why these opinions are swiftly becoming more mainstream.
Posted by humanity (Member # 15871) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: For the Israelites prophecy is the exact words of the deity uttered through the mouth of a mortal of the deity's choosing.
Evergreen Writes:
This makes sense. Western Man is left-brain oriented by nature and hence literalistic, materialistic and objective. The Canaanites, like the later Greeks were both students of the ancient African legacy. Yet much of this legacy was symbolic and not simply open to literal or exact interpretation. With the decline of the Egyptian priesthood man fell into a dark-age which we have yet to fully recover from.
"For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath."
I could not agree more with this statement - from the introduction of the dispassionate passive voice now required in academia, to the pursuit of reason without the marriage of emotion.
Read leonard shlain he writes about this exact sudden decline in the ancient world though he doesn't seem to recgonise it's root as you have pointed out.It's a very popular book,look him up.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Maybe you should take it to a jewish board, this is "egyptsearch" not "jewishsearch".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Thread header = We the Black Jews: Witness to the 'White Jewish Race' Myth
Don't like the thread? Simple. Don't read the thread!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Since the Jew-frightened-faggot is too scared to do it...
HERE IT IS! The thread where your claims of Jewish religion were first address..
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
@ this clown projecting his cowardice on me. Ok duck man, list them... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What cowardice?! I'm not the one running around from thread to thread hurling insults while at the same time not presenting any evidence to back up so-called claims, whereas it is I who bumped up this thread to address them?!
You are definitely one sick twisted queer. Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
then address...
"list those Hebrew religious concepts you do recognise as being AE influenced" Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ It's not a matter of what I "recognize" but what is! List your false list first and I'll point out (again) your errors. Or do you want me to relist them in order to whip your masochistass again? I prefer the latter so I can both humiliate and educate you on the subject as well! Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote:List your false list first
@ this nine year old Manila call girl! Bitch proceed...
quote:Originally posted by akoben: "list those Hebrew religious concepts you do recognise as being AE influenced"
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:stankopenass screams: @ this nine year old Manila call girl! Bitch proceed...
Yes, keep on with the ad-hominem and ethnic slurs. That is ALL you're good for since you don't have the brains for any decent civil let alone scholarly debate you manifest your frustrations like the british schoolgirl that your alter-ego is.
But I got you exactly where I want you, so your dumb cowardlyass can't hide in other threads any longer!
Moving on...
YOUR claims of Egyptian influence on Israelite religion is the Garden of Eden, the Ark of the Covenant, "cherubs", and monotheism...
1. The Garden of Eden is NOT of Egyptian origin and the place as well as the creation myth it's a part of is very much rooted in Asia being found in Sumerian myth. The tale of the two trees one of knowledge and the other of immortality and the wise serpent is Levantine myth associated with mother-goddess cult.
2. You say "cherubs" are of Egyptian origin. Cherubim are a class of angels and angels are obviously NOT of Egyptian origin. You claim they derived from Egyptian winged goddesses but such circumstantial evidence is not enough as winged as the belief or depiction of winged creatures in general was widespread in ancient times. For one angels were not goddesses but beings totally non-human and non-sexual in description. That Jewish lore says they can take on any form-- men or women-- but that their true forms are gigantic in size, shine brightly to the sight, and inhabit the heavens show more in common with spirit beings in other parts of the Levant and Arabia than in Egypt.
3. Monotheism being of Egyptian origin is of course silly considering the Egyptians were polytheists and worshipped multiple deities. While the Israelites may not be unique in the world for having monotheistic beliefs, there were likely unique in the particular area of the world they live in. Even if point out henotheistic origins, there is nothing to suggest Egyptian roots rather than Levantine roots of the traditions. And those who claim the Amarna cult as origin still can't explain why the Aten is a sun idol where the Israelites had no idols at all for their cult of Yahweh.
4. The ONLY thing true in your list of Egyptian influence is the Ark of the Covenant which is based on Egyptian arks which were vessels that held the sacred objects of deities. You can pat yourself on the back for being lucky enough to get this right as you obviously don't know much about either Egyptian culture or Israelite culture.
So out of 4 you got 1.
Here is more:
1. Israelite temple structure and planning that contains an inner shrine for the holy of holies made available only to the king and priesthood-- this is an Egyptian custom and actually contradicts Hebrew belief that the deity should be available to all people
2. Early stories in Genesis of important nations consisting of 12 princes which reflects the older myth of Egypt once being ruled by 12 princes. The 12 tribes on the other hand is not Egyptian but likely comes from even more prehistoric Afrasian roots.
3. State temple rituals such as burning incense and ritual bathing and cleaning rituals for the priesthood is likely Egyptian
4. Early Israelite military organizations including infaltry formations bear a striking resemblance to Egyptian ones. Some scholars think this military knowledge came from Moses who was part of the Egyptian court, others say it could come from Egyptian military presence in Israel. It could also be both..
There is probably a few others, but the point is by and large Israelite religous beliefs and traditions are NOT Egyptian but Asiatic in origin--- largely Levantine but also some Mesopotamian influence. That the Israelites were subject to Egyptian influence while living in Egypt is a given, but it was not as great as YOU claim it nor did they "steal" anything from Egypt, especially considering that the Israelites still lived in their own communities and preserved their own traditions which were largely different from Egyptians.
So Eva, as the fake Africanist Nazipussy that you are I expect the b*tching to begin. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I can only imagine the debauched British she-male as his pale face turns red, consumed with anger and frustration typing up a storm of ad-hominem insults and misinformation.
What's taking so long, Eva?? Maybe you need a break. Perhaps a bathroom break with other men to relieve your frustrations as you relieve theirs...
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
@ Mary repeating her denials as if that makes them any more valid.
too @ Mary now referring to a "cult of Yahweh" after I pointed out his Judaic bias and prejudice against African religions referring to them as cults. Comb through this thread and you will NOT see any such reference to a "cult of Yahweh" prior to this!
Now moving on to your twisted logic Mary.
So according to you, the Ark of the Covenant, temple structure, Genesis stories of 12 princes, burning incense, ritual bathing and cleaning are the "real" AE influences on Hebrew religion, while the rest is attributed to Levantine (note you made reference to the so-called mother-goddess cult as if that is not AFRICAN in origin!!!) and "some" Mesopotamian influence, even Arabian (!!!) LOLOLOL
Wow, Mary, in trying to avoid African influence on Judaism you include Arabs who you are on record as saying didn't even exist when Judaism was being created!! This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously.
Moving on...
Your artful dodging is fundamentally flawed for obvious reasons Mary. Basically you admit to the "shell" of Judaism as being of Egyptian influence but the yoke, the religion itself, which the Ark the temple structure and rituals are an integral part of, is not!
So while living in Egypt they picked up the model and concept for the Ark (which incidentally the common man wouldn't know about) but somehow managed to bypass Aknaton's monotheism and the concpet of the winged creatures, significance of the number twelve and seven, serpent as evil etc. all that related stuff they got from non-African sources.
This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously.
You see the rest as Asiatic in origin, but this is after you say you think the said Asiatic cultures (and even Greece) have an African origin, "more than mere coincidence and stems from a common neolithic or even mesolithic source that is African in origin."
You artful dodging, self-contradictory, anti-Afrocentric Filipoo! Me thinks you, like gringo, try to save face too much hence you end up tongue tied. LOL
The American Patriot types are more honest than insidious anti-Africans like you Mary Lefkowitz.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally abused-asshole: @ Mary repeating her denials as if that makes them any more valid.
No "Mary" here, only a I-- an intelligent man and yourself-- a misguided neo-nazi sexually deviant euroboy in panties.
quote:too @ Mary now referring to a "cult of Yahweh" after I pointed out his Judaic bias and prejudice against African religions referring to them as cults. Comb through this thread and you will NOT see any such reference to a "cult of Yahweh" prior to this!
LMAO You imbecilic liar! How am I prejudice against African religions??! A cult by definition is a specific religious following or worship centered around a deity. Just take a look at the thread where you first accused me such, and you will notice I NEVER called African religions or even Egyptian religions cults! I called the specific worship of deities such as Amon and Ra cults, you moron!! Also this thread is NOT the first time I spoke of a cult of Yahweh. I do recall describing such in threads about Judaism or ancient Israelites in the past-- long before your sorryass even showed up in this forum!
Again YOUR false accusations! Like I told your boyfriend Argay, the burden of proof is on YOU to back up your allegations which of course you can't! But of course these false allegations are only a DISTRACTION from the relevant discourse.
quote:Now moving on to your twisted logic Mary.
Sorry, but this is DJEHUTI your are dealing with and not some old Jewish school teacher. You speak of others twisted logic when yours is the most twisted mind in this forum.
quote:So according to you, the Ark of the Covenant, temple structure, Genesis stories of 12 princes, burning incense, ritual bathing and cleaning are the "real" AE influences on Hebrew religion, while the rest is attributed to Levantine (note you made reference to the so-called mother-goddess cult as if that is not AFRICAN in origin!!!) and "some" Mesopotamian influence, even Arabian (!!!) LOLOLOL
Care to disprove anything I said for a change?? I didn't think so.
quote:Wow, Mary, in trying to avoid African influence on Judaism you include Arabs who you are on record as saying didn't even exist when Judaism was being created!! This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously.
No moron! First of all, notice I said Arabians and not Arab. Second of all I don't hate anything except stupidity from nitwits like YOU. I acknowledge African influence where it exists and not some loon's aburd attempts to discredit Jews.
quote:Moving on...
Yes to more of your nonsense.
quote:Your artful dodging is fundamentally flawed for obvious reasons Mary. Basically you admit to the "shell" of Judaism as being of Egyptian influence but the yoke, the religion itself, which the Ark the temple structure and rituals are an integral part of, is not!
Nope. As usual you love to put words in others mouths. I specifically pointed out which features of the religion was likely due to Egyptian influence. Whereas what YOU pointed out was not.
quote:So while living in Egypt they picked up the model and concept for the Ark (which incidentally the common man wouldn't know about) but somehow managed to bypass Aknaton's monotheism and the concpet of the winged creatures, significance of the number twelve and seven, serpent as evil etc. all that related stuff they got from non-African sources.
Akhenaton's monotheism was the worship of the aten (the sun). The Aten was quite different from the Israelites' concept of Yahweh. Also, there is archaeological evidence to show that monotheism became standard in Israel quite late in history with polytheism being more common in the past. The significance of the number 12 is found in ancient Levantine culture and not only Egyptian and may go back to prehistoric Afrasian roots. The same can be said for the number 7 which is just as prominent in Babylon, and serpents were sacred to the Egyptians. I've already explained the serpent in the Garden of Eden Levantine.
quote:This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously.
Nope. Again no Mary, and your accusations of me are just lies.
quote:You see the rest as Asiatic in origin, but this is after you say you think the said Asiatic cultures (and even Greece) have an African origin, "more than mere coincidence and stems from a common neolithic or even mesolithic source that is African in origin."
LOL Yes Asiatic origins post African Neolithic dispersals is quite different from historical Egyptian influence. So keep twisting and squirming like the stupid worm you are!
quote:You artful dodging, self-contradictory, anti-Afrocentric Filipoo! Me thinks you, like gringo, try to save face too much hence you end up tongue tied. LOL
LMAO Sorry but I don't dodge anone or anything! YOU try to, but are just too stupid you lying, fake-afrocentric perveted gay euro-scum bag!
quote:The American Patriot types are more honest than insidious anti-Africans like you Mary Lefkowitz.
Again, I'm not Lefkowitz you delirious demented dummy! And nobody here is buying your LIES that I'm "anti-African" no more than you are 'africanist'! LMAO Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ For anyone else reading, you see how stupid the poofy-boy is. He obviously sees he's been refuted but doesn't want to admit it! So he resorts to LYING and making up ridiculous things like me being "anti-African" or accusing me of saying things I never said!
The same troll tactics, really. Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
quote: I called the specific worship of deities such as Amon and Ra cults
Wow, you Manila imbecile, and that isn't calling African religions cults? Keep going Mary, you're making yourself look better each time. LOL
quote: I do recall describing such in threads about Judaism or ancient Israelites in the past-- long before your sorryass even showed up in this forum!
Yeh right, so you just forgot how to refer to the Hebrew religion as a "cult" as soon as I showed up right? LOL Keep 'em coming Mary. Lol
quote: No moron! First of all, notice I said Arabians and not Arab.
So "Arabians" existed before "Arabs"? What did the "Arabians" speak? LOL Keep 'em coming!
quote: was likely due to Egyptian influence.
Notice you say "likely" when referring to AE or "Afrasian" influence but not when referring to Asia? Is this your natural bias towards Asia? You duck egg eating Asiancentric. LOL Keep 'em coming.
quote: Akhenaton's monotheism was the worship of the aten (the sun). The Aten was quite different from the Israelites' concept of Yahweh.
By "different" you mean they both acknowledged the oneness of the creator? LOL Keep 'em coming.
quote:The significance of the number 12 is found in ancient Levantine culture and not only Egyptian and may go back to prehistoric Afrasian roots. The same can be said for the number 7 which is just as prominent in Babylon, and serpents were sacred to the Egyptians. I've already explained the serpent in the Garden of Eden Levantine.
Yeh, but you forget that Hebrew tradition points to Moses (founder of Judaism: temple structure, rituals and all) as having been risen in all wisdom of the Egyptians ***not*** the Babylonians or Canaanites you biased Asiancentric jackass.
In other words Mary, you would rather see Hebrew concepts as rooted in a civilisation (Babylonia) that is much further away from Hebrew/Levantine region than next door in Africa. This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously. Keep 'em coming.
Oh and serpents had a dual (good and evil) significance in AE, so too in Hebrew myth which is largely derived from AE.
quote: Yes Asiatic origins post African Neolithic dispersals is quite different from historical Egyptian influence.
Asiatic origins? I thought you said African? This must be your Asiancentrism again. I think I know why you are so defensive about African (AE) influences outweighing Asian.
Coupled with your Eurocentric anti-Stolen Legacy remarks how can you not be Mary Lefkowitz: a white Jew appropriating an Asian culture???!!
quote:And nobody here is buying your LIES that I'm "anti-African" no more than you are 'africanist'!
As if anyone here agrees with your Asiancentrism and Eurocentrism
Evergreen - The Canaanites, like the later Greeks were both students of the ancient African legacy
Doug - In some cases "stole" is literally the correct answer
Great Jew - Is it clear yet that there is a STOLEN LEGACY and it is perfectly valid, legal, moral and dutiful to declare, "**** stinks... James includes both Archaic and Classical philosophers as 'redactors' of the Wisdom of Egypt.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
here mary, let me bump it for you in case you say you can't find this thread. i've lost count of your excuses...
Posted by Bishop (Member # 16652) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by akoben08: [qb] No Israelis before 1948. And in denying the tribal nomads stole Canaanite culture you sound like Eurocentrics who insist, despite evidence, that the ancient Greeks didn't steal Egyptian knowledge. LOL AE was superior culture to Canaan, in turn superior to primitive tribal Jews who stole monotheism and spirituality from AE, while still holding on to primitive angry Canaanite god el/baal who seems to delights in smiting people/genocide.Of course there were no Israelis, but there were ancient Israelites] whom you previously denied! I on the other hand don't deny anything. Apparently your warped little mind can't get around the fact that there was no cultural theft in the sense that a people actually acquired something of another people without due credit which is something modern Westerners are guilty of. Such was not the case of the ancient Israelites who like countless peoples back then were part of the process of free cultural exchange in which they borrowed aspects of another culture while influencing others. Hence, the Greeks borrowed certain aspects from the Egyptians and openly gave the Egyptians credit for it. The same way Christianity and Islam are also products of Israelite/Jewish customs. Yet no one accuses Europeans or Arabs of 'stealing' Jewish culture. That book you linked to is silly by the way, since Greek Classical philosophy was homegrown and did not come from Egypt! Also, if you read anything from Biblical or Jewish scripture, you would know that the Israelite religious and community leaders actually struggled to rid their society of Canaanite cultural influence! Also many of the similarities between Hebrew and Canaanite culture may not even stem from cultural influence from the latter but a shared root or origin as Semitic speaking peoples. Or did you not even consider that?? And since when did Jews take monotheistic beliefs from the Egyptians?? Last time I checked, the Egyptians were polytheists who believed in a myriad of gods!
In his magnum opus A Lost Tradition: African Philosophy in World History (1975), Thoephile Obenga documents the confessions of 'famous' revered Greeks (the world's first Europeans) in their own Greek Hellenic language that they all received their education at the Temple of Waset in ancient Kemet (Egypt) and that their teachers were the master-thinkers or High priests in the Nile Valley. The Temple of Waset is the world's first university and was built during the reign of Pharaoh Amenhotep 111 in the XV111 Dynasty, 1405-1370 B.C. For example, "it is generally taught that Thales of Miletus (624-547 B.C.) was the first Greek philosopher and the founder of the Presocratic Ionian school in Asia Minor (and) is traditionally the first (protos) to have revealed the investigation of nature."
The truism is that Thales "received his training from Egyptian priests in the Nile Valley. This is clearly recorded by the Greeks themselves." According to "the corpus of ancient Greek testimonia with regard to the fruitful instruction received by Thales in Egypt: "Thales, one of the so-called 'Seven Sages', had no regular teacher in his life save for the priests of Egypt, under whom he studied." (p.28). "Thales of Miletus had never been taught by a master in Greece. Thales' pursuit of instruction saw him go by sea to Egypt, where he spent time with the Egyptian priests." Plato records that Thales was educated in Egypt under the priests: "Thales was well and truly indebted to Egypt for his education." According to Aetius, "Thales studied philosophy in Egypt for a long enough period to be considered an elder when he returned."(p.29). "The science of geometry was invented in Egypt. Thales transferred the speculative science of geometry to Greece. There was no method of intellectual inquiry such as geometry in Greece before Thales' departure for Egypt. Upon his return, however, Thales introduced geometry (geometrein) in Greece." (p.31).
Indeed, "more than 1,000 years before Thales' birth, Egyptians had correctly calculated the areas of rectangles, triangles and isosceles trapeziums. The area of a circle had also been obtained accurately." (p.32). The Greek Hellenic record shows that Pythagoras (born circa 572 B.C.) like another ancient philosopher (he) Pythagoras journeyed in his youth to Egypt where, for an indefinite number of years, he pursued studies in astronomy, geometry, and theology under the tutelage of Egyptian priests."(p.34). It was Thales who "had recommended that above all, Pythagoras should meet the clergy of Memphis and Thebes (old capitals of Kemet) in order to gain a higher level of knowledge." (p.37).
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) "ranked the country of the Pharaohs as the most ancient archaeological reserve in the world."(.p.45). In his Greek Hellenic confession, he wrote: "That is how the Egyptians, whom we considered as the most ancient of the human race," lived in a country which was entirely the product and the work of the (Nile) river.
Aristotle also confesses: "Thus, the mathematical sciences first originated in Egypt, the cradle of Mathematics--- that is, the country of origin for Greek mathematics."(pp.47-48). Moreover, after evaluating "the astronomical knowledge acquired by the Egyptians, Aristotle was compelled to conclude: "we owe many incontrovertible facts about each of the stars' to the Egyptians". (p.51). The fact of the matter is that these confessions are prima facie evidence that the original glory is not out of Greece. The original glory belongs to the Africans/Kemites of ancient Kemet/Egypt; "Herodotus said it, Plato confirmed it and Aristotle never denied it." (.9.45). In addition, all the other 'famous' Greeks received their education from the African Highpriests including Socrates, Euclid, Hypocrates, Diodorus, Solon, Archmides and Euripides.
The Greek, St. Clement of Alexandria , stated that if you were to write a book of 1,000 pages, you could not put down the names of all the Greeks who went to the Nile Valley in Kemet/Egypt, Africa, to be educated and even those who did not go claim they went because it was prestigious.
Posted by akoben (Member # 15244) on :
^ UP.
Hey Mary, look at how easy that was! Why can't you do it yet? Are you hiding from me?
If so then I don't hold it against you Mary, in your efforts to deny further the truth of African origins I suggest you take your time in compiling your reply, you don't want to end up more twisted and illogical than you already are. lol
Posted by Bishop (Member # 16652) on :
quote:Originally posted by akoben: ^ UP.
Hey Mary, look at how easy that was! Why can't you do it yet? Are you hiding from me?
If so then I don't hold it against you Mary, in your efforts to deny further the truth of African origins I suggest you take your time in compiling your reply, you don't want to end up more twisted and illogical than you already are. lol
I think I may have posted to much evidence for Mary in the above quote Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I'm not Mary Lefkowitz! And don't allow yourself to be fooled by that idiot nazi!
quote:from the dumbassopen: Wow, you Manila imbecile, and that isn't calling African religions cults? Keep going Mary, you're making yourself look better each time. LOL
Does your dumbass even know the meaning of cult?? Here it is again since you apparently missed it:
cult /kʌlt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhlt] Show IPA –noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols..
'Religion' is a general term for spiritual beliefs in general, 'cult' is specific for any rites or rituals centered around an object of worship.
quote:Yeh right, so you just forgot how to refer to the Hebrew religion as a "cult" as soon as I showed up right? LOL Keep 'em coming Mary. Lol
I'm know I'm right, bitch. The Israelite relgion is centered on the cult of one god. That your dumbass doesn't know the difference between religion and cult is NOT my fault. LOL
quote:So "Arabians" existed before "Arabs"? What did the "Arabians" speak? LOL Keep 'em coming!
Yes, Arabians as in inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula unless you're saying that geographic feature did not exist back then, nitwit!! It's likely these Arabians spoke Semitic languages like the early Israelites, dumbass. Must I explain every elementary thing to you?? You definitely have no business in this forum, Eva!
quote:Notice you say "likely" when referring to AE or "Afrasian" influence but not when referring to Asia? Is this your natural bias towards Asia? You duck egg eating Asiancentric. LOL Keep 'em coming.
No bias at all. I say likely because it is not as definitive as the Asian influences which are much easier to see. Whatever AE features can only be accounted on the fact of its difference from Asian practices and similarities to Egypt. As far as Afrasian this is just as speculative because Afrasian is even more ancient and even prehistoric. I'm neither Asiacentric nor Afrocentric nor Eurocentric, just truthcentric and I'd rather eat duck than dick as is your usual diet.
quote:By "different" you mean they both acknowledged the oneness of the creator? LOL Keep 'em coming.
That can be said for any monotheistic religion from Korean Shintoism to some Native American religions dumbass! The only difference is the Aten was the sun whereas the Israelite god was NOT.
Yeah, I'll keep it coming alright!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Yeh, but you forget that Hebrew tradition points to Moses (founder of Judaism: temple structure, rituals and all) as having been risen in all wisdom of the Egyptians ***not*** the Babylonians or Canaanites you biased Asiancentric jackass.
Of course, but your dumbass apparently forgot about Moses predecessors in Asia like Abraham who was in fact the true founder of Hebrew traditions that includes all other beliefs and practices that were obviously non-Egyptian.
quote:In other words Mary, you would rather see Hebrew concepts as rooted in a civilisation (Babylonia) that is much further away from Hebrew/Levantine region than next door in Africa. This is how much you hate admitting African influence Mary? Seriously. Keep 'em coming.
Again, there's no 'Mary' here but I Djehuti. Hebrew concepts are rooted in the Levant right there with their immediate Canaanite neighbors more so than Egypt or Babylon. Again I never denied African influence, I just don't make stuff up as YOU do.
quote:Oh and serpents had a dual (good and evil) significance in AE, so too in Hebrew myth which is largely derived from AE.
Nope. Serpents were largely good in Egypt. In Jewish symbolism however they were almost always evil. This association with evil was no doubt connected to the goddess worship of Asherah as indicated in the Garden of Eden where no such myth exists in Egypt. What else you got, moron?
quote:Asiatic origins? I thought you said African? This must be your Asiancentrism again. I think I know why you are so defensive about African (AE) influences outweighing Asian.
You moron, in the other thread I spoke of African origins of Neolithic culture, this is different from more recent historical traditions found in Asia. Does your dumbass know the difference between the two??
quote:Coupled with your Eurocentric anti-Stolen Legacy remarks how can you not be Mary Lefkowitz: a white Jew appropriating an Asian culture???!!
Just because I disagree with your "stolen legacy" premise doesn not make me Eurocentric just as agreeing with Asian based motifs in Jewish religion not make me Asiocentric, or African neolithic diffusion to your European ancestors make me Afrocentric! You dumb lying poof. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Finally, after a month I'm able to make my response although I had to cut it into two posts!
I wonder where the openass is though?? I find it convenient that the asshole is absent and in his place comes a dumber asshole in the form of Arthur Kemp! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: Yes, Arabians as in inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula unless you're saying that geographic feature did not exist back then, nitwit!!
Poor you. Arabic [hence Arabians] didn't exist back then.
quote:Of course, but your dumbass apparently forgot about Moses predecessors in Asia like Abraham who was in fact the true founder of Hebrew traditions that includes all other beliefs and practices that were obviously non-Egyptian.
Nice try. Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism. You are trying hard to escape this (founder of Judaism: temple structure, rituals and all) ... brought up in all wisdom of the Egyptians ***not*** the Babylonians or Canaanites
quote: Nope. Serpents were largely good in Egypt.
LOL complete non sequitur. The serpent was associated with evil also in Egypt, you initially tried to deny this.
quote: Just because I disagree with your "stolen legacy" premise doesn not make me Eurocentric
No. What makes you Eurocentric is your refusal to back up your denials. But don't worry, we all know why.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogled-butt wrote: Poor you. Arabic [hence Arabians] didn't exist back then.
LMAO
Sorry but 'Arabic' is the name of the language and script of Arabs an ethnic group. Of course Arabs didn't exist back then but certainly there were ARABIANS as in inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula, you turd-brain!
quote:Nice try. Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism. You are trying hard to escape this (founder of Judaism: temple structure, rituals and all) ... brought up in all wisdom of the Egyptians ***not*** the Babylonians or Canaanites
But Abraham is also seen as the founder of the Jewish faith that is religious beliefs as well as traditions that stem from them! True, Moses introduced Egyptian influence to these traditions but that does not negate the fact that the core beliefs of the ancient Hebrews was Asiatic! Also, some of the Egyptian institutions introduced were in discordance with true Hebrew belief such as the seperation of deity from the common people etc.
quote:LOL complete non sequitur. The serpent was associated with evil also in Egypt, you initially tried to deny this.
Nope. If anything the non-sequitor is yours! Serpents in Egypt were largely seen as sacred. There were only a few instances where the serpent is viewed as evil only in a few personages like the demon god Apepi. In Judaism serpents were entirely seen as if not evil, then hostile to people. This is seen in the beliefs of other Semitic people like Arabians who believe some serpents to be the manifestation of malevolent entities like jinn.
quote:No. What makes you Eurocentric is your refusal to back up your denials. But don't worry, we all know why.
What denials?? I don't deny anything, and judging from my responese above, I'm perfectly able to back up my claims unlike YOUR dumb lying jew-frightened-sodomized-ass! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: there were ARABIANS as in inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula
And what language did these "Arabians" speak?
quote: True, Moses introduced Egyptian influence to these traditions
LOL you admit this much!
quote: the core beliefs of the ancient Hebrews was Asiatic!
LOL Apart from few similarities with Bablylonian garden of eden myths, some of which as I said can also be attributed to Egypt, you have in no way proved your assertion. Fact is, Egyptian Moses introduced monotheism, laws, organized structured religion, a literate priesthood to backward Hebrew tribes people. If it wasn't for Moses Hebrews would remain illiterate tribes people with no cohesive, monotheistic set of beliefs. Your months of denials have in no way refuted any of these facts. Sorry.
quote: Serpents in Egypt were largely seen as sacred. There were only a few instances where the serpent is viewed as evil only in a few personages like the demon god Apepi. In Judaism serpents were entirely seen as if not evil, then hostile to people.
LOL more non sequiturs! Boy you really running out of options!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: And what language did these "Arabians" speak?
It is assumed these Arabians spoke a variety of languages, some of which are Semitic! LOL Why the strawman question?! The fact is that Arabians-- as in people inhabiting the Arabian peninsula existed in ancient times to prehistoric times! That the Semitic speakers were closely related in language and culture to Levantine Semitic speakers is a given!
quote:LOL you admit this much!
Again I never denied Egyptian influence. What I deny are your silly claims that Israelite religious beliefs by and large are a rip-off of Egyptian! Another one of your Jew-discreding lies of course.
quote:LOL Apart from few similarities with Bablylonian garden of eden myths, some of which as I said can also be attributed to Egypt, you have in no way proved your assertion. Fact is, Egyptian Moses introduced monotheism, laws, organized structured religion, a literate priesthood to backward Hebrew tribes people. If it wasn't for Moses Hebrews would remain illiterate tribes people with no cohesive, monotheistic set of beliefs. Your months of denials have in no way refuted any of these facts. Sorry. [QUOTE] LOL It is YOU who hasn't been able to prove your assertions especially that the mythological beliefs you pointed out are Egyptian in origin! Moses did not introduce monotheism as monotheism in Israelite society came much later! The Israelites were henotheists as were all Semitic tribes in ancient times, idiot! Also Hebrew writing was developed from Canaanite which indeed came from Egypt but was the source script of all Semitic speakers.
[quote]LOL more non sequiturs! Boy you really running out of options!
How is this a non-sequitor?? Because I debunked your over-sodimized-ass?! LOL You are pathetic!! I suggest you leave this forum and get your STD ridden self checked in one of those government clinics you have in Britain! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: It is assumed these Arabians spoke a variety of languages
Wow, Arabians not speaking Arabic. LOL
quote: Moses did not introduce monotheism as monotheism in Israelite society came much later!
Wow, you go with Jewish tradition that says Abraham is the founder of the Jewish faith, yet reject that same tradition that claims monotheism from Abrahams time! Amazing gymnastics "Djehuti", all in an effort to deny African origins of beliefs of your precious Jews! LOL
Irrational denials of a stolen legacy that goes back at least to this thread. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Also Hebrew writing was developed from Canaanite which indeed came from Egypt
It must pain you to admit this much.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Wow, Arabians not speaking Arabic. LOL
Wow, you are too stupid to know the difference between Arabians-- inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula and the ethnic group known today as 'Arabs'! LOL I'm sorry for that.
quote:Wow, you go with Jewish tradition that says Abraham is the founder of the Jewish faith, yet reject that same tradition that claims monotheism from Abrahams time! Amazing gymnastics "Djehuti", all in an effort to deny African origins of beliefs of your precious Jews! LOL
Abraham is the founder of the Hebrew faith! 'Jewish' faith is in reference to Judea or Israelite which was founded much later, fool! Also you failed to prove how any of those beliefs are African as in Egyptian! Jews obviously aren't as precious to me as they are to YOU whose life is consumed with them!
quote:Irrational denials of a stolen legacy that goes back at least to this thread.
Nope. Even a black Jewish poster in that thread you linked has debunked your dumbass and your lies. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
There were no "Arabians" to influence early Hebrew culture, sorry, this is just another of your ass dumb unproven theories.
quote: Abraham is the founder of the Hebrew faith!
You could yell this a thousand times it still wont make it fact. The Jewish or Hebrew bible is not history, sorry.
In fact so-called Jewish tradition or scripture should be weighed against extra-biblical material, hence the multidisciplinary approach that was explained in this thread but obviously went over your head. In other words, everything pre-"Moses", that is, before the introduction of the Atentists, should be taken with a grain of salt. It is to a large extent invented history to create a national identity, it is not real history. It is obvious from your trolling on this topic over the years, that you only resort to so-called Jewish tradition or scripture when you want to deny or dismiss Egyptian influences and origins. However, when it comes to Babylonian and Canaanite (Asian) influences, or alleged influences, you disregard said Jewish tradition or scripture - which is why you have no trouble locating the origins of certain biblical stories and concepts to Babylonian and/or Canaanite mythology.
This is because your whole agenda is to lessen the African origin of Hebrew beliefs and elevate the so-called Asian influences, no matter how slim the evidence. Yet with all your contradictions and deliberate misrepresentations [e.g. the dual significance of serpents in ancient Egyptian mythology which you tried to deny] you have yet to support your anti-African agenda, save pointing out the usual Babylonian similarities with the Garden of Eden while at same time ignoring the Egyptian similarities of said Hebrew myth.
This is text book mainstream Eurocentric tactic to relegate the importance of ancient Egypt. That you resort to it is not surprising. You are like Fawal: your agenda is to lessen ancient Egyptian/African impact on world civilizations. This coupled with your arguments justifying your dismal of Prof. James proves you are Mary Lefkowitz or her student.
You people can't hide for long. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle:
There were no "Arabians" to influence early Hebrew culture, sorry, this is just another of your ass dumb unproven theories.
Who said anything about "influence" I'm talking about common origins via proto-Semitic. Hebrew culture is Semitic culture not Egyptian.
quote:You could yell this a thousand times it still wont make it fact. The Jewish or Hebrew bible is not history, sorry.
Who said it was! It was YOU who first brought up Moses! LOL I merely corrected you that Abraham was said to be the founder of Hebrew culture not Moses. And while the Bible is a religious book do you deny that there is some history present as with many religious narrative stories??
quote:In fact so-called Jewish tradition or scripture should be weighed against extra-biblical material, hence the multidisciplinary approach that was explained in this thread but obviously went over your head. In other words, everything pre-"Moses", that is, before the introduction of the Atentists, should be taken with a grain of salt. It is to a large extent invented history to create a national identity, it is not real history. It is obvious from your trolling on this topic over the years, that you only resort to so-called Jewish tradition or scripture when you want to deny or dismiss Egyptian influences and origins. However, when it comes to Babylonian and Canaanite (Asian) influences, or alleged influences, you disregard said Jewish tradition or scripture - which is why you have no trouble locating the origins of certain biblical stories and concepts to Babylonian and/or Canaanite mythology.
Of course multi-disciplinary sources should be considered which still does not refute the fact taht Hebrew culture is Asiatic in origin. As the texts and archaeology of Elba in Syria show! Neither is there any proof that Isrealite monotheism which came centuries later is related in anyway to Atenism! I never denied any Egyptian influence moron, I just don't attribute all Israelite beliefs to Egypt and you still did not refute that Mesopotamian influences are still greater in actual mythological beliefs as I've shown above!
quote:This is because your whole agenda is to lessen the African origin of Hebrew beliefs and elevate the so-called Asian influences, no matter how slim the evidence. Yet with all your contradictions and deliberate misrepresentations [e.g. the dual significance of serpents in ancient Egyptian mythology which you tried to deny] you have yet to support your anti-African agenda, save pointing out the usual Babylonian similarities with the Garden of Eden while at same time ignoring the Egyptian similarities of said Hebrew myth.
Nope. I have no agenda other to accept or present the facts. I've already provided my evidence above NON of which you were able to refute by the way. And please stop whining about the serpent thing. Serpent in Israelite belief are not dual but are simply demonized while in Egypt they are largely sacred.
quote:This is text book mainstream Eurocentric tactic to relegate the importance of ancient Egypt. That you resort to it is not surprising. You are like Fawal: your agenda is to lessen ancient Egyptian/African impact on world civilizations. This coupled with your arguments justifying your dismal of Prof. James proves you are Mary Lefkowitz or her student.
I'm not a Eurocentric, have never asserted anything Eurocentric, ancient Israel is not even in Europe, and I don't espouse Lekfkowitz as you are obsessed with her! I suggest you seek professional help from a shrink and it doesn't have to be a Jewish one!
quote:You people can't hide for long.
What people?? You mean Asian Americans like myself, Jewish people who you are afraid of, or sexually and intellectually frustrated white liberal euro-faggots who cling on to other peoples heritages?? LOL Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Dude, there is no historical record of any Abraham. Sorry. What is known as Judaism is largely an Egyptian invention the Hebrews got from "Moses", an Egytpian. Sorry to break it you Bernstein. And all your hysterical rants against the Egyptian origin of Hebrew monotheism and much more, means nothing in the face of the evidence. Nor is your pitiful inflation of Babylonian influences as somehow "greater". Your meager analogies with the Garden of Eden myth cannot even begin to compare with monotheism, laws, temple structure, rituals, ark etc. Sorry, you lose again.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The reason why Babylonian influence is greater in Hebrew mythology is because the ancient Hebrews from Abrahamic times to before lived in close proximity to Babylon as shown in the texts of the ancient city of Ebla in modern day Tell Mardikh, Syria. These texts dating 2,300 B.C show a Semitic language that is most similar to Hebrew than to anything else and even contains names of places and persons which are found in Biblical texts written a thousand years later. What's more is that in the list of kings, 'Abaramu' (Abraham) is mentioned as a founding ancestor whose own ancestor Eber (progenitor of Eberu/Hebrews) originated farther east in Haran which is in northern Mesopotamia. This geneology is the same in Biblical Genesis. What's more is unlike later Biblical texts, Mesopotamian deities and myths are mentioned along with the chief deity El or Elohim.
Of course these were the forebearers of later Israelites who settled farther south in the Levant. It is these Israelites who recieved further influence in terms of some traditions from Egypt via the Mosaic tradition but the spiritual beliefs were largely the same. You are so quick to dismiss the existence of figures like Moses or Abraham. Not that I support their existence, but the point is that the Israelites and Hebrews like many tribal peoples hold traditional geneologies where they claim descent from a personage. Whether that personage was real or a metaphor for an ancestral group, it remains the same that you cannot dispute the ancestry or heritage. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ LOL your pathetic attempt to historicize "Abraham" [all the while unable to connect the birth Judaism before the Egyptian "Moses"] only underscores my point, "Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism."
You are pitifully desperate to deny, "Moses" founder of Judaism: monotheism, temple structure, rituals, laws, ark etc ... brought up in all wisdom of the Egyptians ***not*** the Babylonians or Canaanites.
^ choke on that anti-African! lol
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LMAO What pathetic attempt?! Againg I never said Abraham was a real person, but I did provide historical evidence of such a personage or the belief there of via the Ebla texts. The religious and spiritual traditions of Jews can all be traced to their Hebrew ancestors at Elba NOT Egypt! Yes, of course there was Egyptian influence, again likely attributed to relations in Egypt as well as Moses (which YOU seem to love to acknowledge but strangely not Abraham)!
And as usual, you make the allegation that I am anti-African when I've said nothing against Africa. Just because I point out your failure to attribute Hebrew-Israelite spiritual beliefs to Egypt does not mean I'm "anti-African"! LOL
Again, look up the Ebla Texts! Of course your ignorant-ass hasn't even heard of them have you?.. even though you argue on the topic of ancient Jewish religious traditions!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I did provide historical evidence of such a personage or the belief there of
Yes you provided evidence of a belief, how profound.
quote:Again, look up the Ebla Texts!
LMAO @ Mary getting all exited about her Asian texts as if anyone denied the Semitic Hebrew were free of Semitic influences! LOL. Semitic deities (Yah and EL) and names, Biblical stories of Sodom and Gomorrah only show mythological commonalities of the ancient Asian civilizations (duh!) a lot of which can be traced to Africa anyway (Diop, Ben Yochannan, DuBios et al.)
Do your texts say the founder of Judaism was learned in all the wisdom of the Asians; does it say a Syrian authored the first five books of the Hebrew Bible? Does it say a Syrian introduced monotheism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood to the Hebrews? Please quote where it says this.
quote:(Abraham) is mentioned as a founding ancestor - Mary
Isnt it strange, in all your ranting and raving you come back to this, "Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism."
That you are willing to look to Syria, when the very tradition itself points to Africa shows yet again how much you are dedicated to Not Out Of Africa. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Yes you provided evidence of a belief, how profound.
No more than the belief in Moses which you uphold, moron!
quote:LMAO @ Mary getting all exited about her Asian texts as if anyone denied the Semitic Hebrew were free of Semitic influences! LOL. Semitic deities (Yah and EL) and names, Biblical stories of Sodom and Gomorrah only show mythological commonalities of the ancient Asian civilizations (duh!) a lot of which can be traced to Africa anyway (Diop, Ben Yochannan, DuBios et al.)
There is no "Mary" here, you are addressing Djehuti. I'm not excited, just humored at how stupid you are! You still don't get it that there were no Semitic "influences" because Hebrew IS Semitic! Of course Sodom and Gomorrah aren't the only myths but pretty much ALL old Hebrew stories are Asian. Which others can be traced to Africa other than the stories of dwelling in Egypt??
quote:Do your texts say the founder of Judaism was learned in all the wisdom of the Asians; does it say a Syrian authored the first five books of the Hebrew Bible? Does it say a Syrian introduced monotheism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood to the Hebrews? Please quote where it says this.
quote:(Abraham) is mentioned as a founding ancestor - Mary
Isnt it strange, in all your ranting and raving you come back to this, "Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, [i]Moses as the founder of Judaism."
LOL @ your inconsistency to deny the existence of Abraham yet cling on to "Moses"-- BOTH equal ancestral personages. But the former being older. Moses is the founder of the Torah but how is this African or Egyptian as you say other than Ten Commandments??
quote:That you are willing to look to Syria, when the very tradition itself points to Africa shows yet again how much you are dedicated to Not Out Of Africa.
Nope. Archaeological and historical evidence (including Hebrew writings themselves) are quite clear, you moron! How about you refute the Ebla texts or find such older in Egypt?? Can you do that? Nope. I don't think so and I don't see how this is anti-African, you idiot! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: your inconsistency to deny the existence of Abraham yet cling on to "Moses"—
What a simpleton you are. I never said anything about Moses or Abraham being real historical personages, I am merely pointing to how Judaic tradition sees both. "Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism."
^ You have yet to refute this.
quote: pretty much ALL old Hebrew stories are Asian.
Wow, in the past you juggle influences between Levant (Canaan) and Mesopotamia, contradicting yourself about which contributed more, now in your state of desperation in not being able to contradict Judaism's own tradition of pointing to Africa as the source, you scream pretty much ALL influences are Asian. LOL
Screaming it would make it so? Sorry.
"Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism."
^ You have yet to refute this.
quote:Which others can be traced to Africa other than the stories of dwelling in Egypt??
For a list of African influences on Hebrew stories/culture see Diop, Dr. Ben, Massey to name only a few.
quote: Moses is the founder of the Torah
Good lord! the imbecile admits this much! LOL Yes Mary, the tradition points to Africa, oh how this pains you.
quote:but how is this African or Egyptian as you say other than Ten Commandments??
OMG! So now you want to relegate African influences to just the Ten Commandments? Is this how much you hate Africa mary?! LOL
quote: How about you refute the Ebla texts or find such older in Egypt??
LOL what is there to "refute"?
*sigh*
Do your texts say the founder of Judaism was learned in all the wisdom of the Asians; does it say a Syrian authored the first five books of the Hebrew Bible? Does it say a Syrian introduced monotheism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood to the Hebrews? Please quote where it says this.
Seems the onus is on YOU Mary.
Posted by Vader- (Member # 14189) on :
Get the j0000000000000z!!!!!!!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Obviously Bogle can't get them cuz he's too scared of them! LOL
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: What a simpleton you are. I never said anything about Moses or Abraham being real historical personages, I am merely pointing to how Judaic tradition sees both. "Abraham is seen as the father of the Jews in terms of their genetic descent and genealogy, Moses as the founder of Judaism."
^ You have yet to refute this.
The only simpleton here is YOU. What is there to refute?? Moses may be the father of Judaism in that he is considered the author of the Torah but these stories stem from earlier sources in Asia per the Ebla texts. You have not (cannot) refute those either.
quote:Wow, in the past you juggle influences between Levant (Canaan) and Mesopotamia, contradicting yourself about which contributed more, now in your state of desperation in not being able to contradict Judaism's own tradition of pointing to Africa as the source, you scream pretty much ALL influences are Asian. LOL
No contradiction from I. Judahites WERE Levantine and most of the influence in terms of beliefs did come from Mesopotamia again as all the examples I provided as well as Elba.
quote:Screaming it would make it so? Sorry.
Of course! Which is exactly why no matter how much you scream and b*tch about it, it simply ain't so.
quote:For a list of African influences on Hebrew stories/culture see Diop, Dr. Ben, Massey to name only a few.
I'm asking YOU, moron! You tried to provide answers before in this thread-- non of which is proven and on the contrary is refuted.
quote:Good lord! the imbecile admits this much! LOL Yes Mary, the tradition points to Africa, oh how this pains you.
Nope. Please show me examples of Torah-like mythological stories and traditions in Egypt. Sorry foolish child but silly face graemlin icons aren't substitute for answers! LMAO
quote:OMG! So now you want to relegate African influences to just the Ten Commandments? Is this how much you hate Africa mary?! LOL [QUOTE] The Ten Commandments show obvious resemblance to the Egyptian Negative Confessions. But what about all the other stuff?? Again, I'm not your school teacher "Mary", and please explain how I "hate" Africa because I don't acknowledge any of your claims which you are unable to prove.
[quote]LOL what is there to "refute"?
Indeed, what of the Elba texts is there to refute?? You got NOTHING.
quote:*sigh*
Do your texts say the founder of Judaism was learned in all the wisdom of the Asians; does it say a Syrian authored the first five books of the Hebrew Bible? Does it say a Syrian introduced monotheism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood to the Hebrews? Please quote where it says this.
Seems the onus is on YOU Mary.
Again, there is no "Mary" here. You are addressing Djehuti. Unlike your Jewish school teacher I'm not going to allow your dumbass to slide easily. All of the stories of Genesis are found in Elba, monotheism came about much later in Israel but henotheistic hegemony of Elhom or Yahweh had nothing to do with Egypt. Similar rituals and laws are found in the Levant, literate priesthood is also found there with all scripts originating in Egypt yes but not the whole priesthood. The ark of the covenant and some temple architecture, yes. But your topic was about actual spiritual beliefs and traditions which is NO.
Anymore whining??
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Moses may be the father of Judaism in that he is considered the author of the Torah but these stories stem from earlier sources in Asia per the Ebla texts.
So basically you are arguing that although "Moses" was African none of the stories, themes, concepts in a script, ascribed to his authorship, is African. LOL And this is not being ANTI-AFRICAN?!? LOL
quote:You have not (cannot) refute those either.
LOL You have not "proven" anything dumbass. All you have done is present one source of influence on the Hebrew culture, while forgetting there were many sources. What a bird brain you are.
And of course forgetting also that according to their own tradition, the founder of Judaism (i.e. Hebrew mythology) was African.
The Ebla tablets you like to inflate were written in a Sumerian script, religion of the region primarily Canaanite. So its basically a Sumerian import. So whatever Biblical similarities in these near eastern civilizations [especially around this time] can easily be attributed to ancient Egypt we know that Sumerian and Canaan cosmology (creation myth etc) is to large extent an outgrowth of ancient Egypt, see Massey, Diop, Barashango just to name a few. There was no near eastern civilization around this time that can claim independence and purity from ancient Egypt.
These "Asian" civilizations did not spring up independent and autonomous from the worlds first civilization in the Nile Valley and you are alone in arguing this - well you have company in Lefkowitz your teacher Not Out Of Africa.
Sorry mary, the Hebrews were influenced by Africa [in fact they say their founder/law giver was African ] and indirectly from Africa through places like Sumer and Canaan. And of course according to their own tradition, the founder of Judaism (i.e. Hebrew mythology) was African. LOL
quote: Please show me examples of Torah-like mythological stories and traditions in Egypt.
See sources above moron.
quote: The Ten Commandments show obvious resemblance to the Egyptian Negative Confessions. But what about all the other stuff??
Other stuff like monotheism, genesis, proverbs, serpent and staff symbolism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood? I already defeated you with them.
quote:All of the stories of Genesis are found in Elba
LOL This is a lie of course, not even the defenders of the Elba tablets say this.
quote:monotheism came about much later in Israel
Already exposed this straw.
quote:Similar rituals and laws are found in the Levant, literate priesthood is also found there with all scripts originating in Egypt yes but not the whole priesthood. The ark of the covenant and some temple architecture, yes.
Oh how it must pain you to admit this much while condescendingly down playing their relevance. You are the liberal version of Dirk, Kemp et al. I have indeed succeeded in exposing your lilly white liberal racist ass! LOL
Posted by Vader- (Member # 14189) on :
LOL what the f*ck are you guys talking about LOL
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogled-booty: So basically you are arguing that although "Moses" was African none of the stories, themes, concepts in a script, ascribed to his authorship, is African. LOL And this is not being ANTI-AFRICAN?!? LOL
Again, I never said "non". But in terms of actual spritual beliefs and mythologies, can you point out any concepts that are African as in Egyptian?? You tried to in the previoius page of this thread but failed miserably. Sorry but acknowledging Hebrew mythology as Asian is not being "anti-African".
quote:LOL You have not "proven" anything dumbass. All you have done is present one source of influence on the Hebrew culture, while forgetting there were many sources. What a bird brain you are.
LOL The only dumbass is YOU, since you can't figure out that Ebla is NOT a source of "influence" but a very source of Hebrew culture including spiritual beliefs, period! What roach brain you are for not getting this! By the way, the link you cite to only proves my point. Again no one denys Egyptian influence in terms of certain traditions but the core spiritual beliefs that make Judaism what it is is Asian.
quote:And of course forgetting also that according to their own tradition, the founder of Judaism (i.e. Hebrew mythology) was African.
Nope. Moses is considered the author of the Torah, but the myths and stories of the Torah documenting the history and origins of the Hebrew stem from Asia not Egypt or Africa where they lived for a time. The word "Hebrew" itself is associated with the eponymous ancestor Eber who is said to come from Haram (Syria). Again, the Ebla texts are clear source of all these religious traditions and myths, NOT Egypt!
quote:The Ebla tablets you like to inflate were written in a Sumerian script, religion of the region primarily Canaanite. So its basically a Sumerian import. So whatever Biblical similarities in these near eastern civilizations [especially around this time] can easily be attributed to ancient Egypt we know that Sumerian and Canaan cosmology (creation myth etc) is to large extent an outgrowth of ancient Egypt, see Massey, Diop, Barashango just to name a few. There was no near eastern civilization around this time that can claim independence and purity from ancient Egypt.
Nope. Of course the Ebla texts were written in Sumerian script since the people of Ebla had no script of their own however the actual language it was expressed in was Canaanite showing that the early Hebrews were essentially Canaanites. And we know that Canaanite and definitely Sumerian myth is NOT an outgrowth of Egypt but is independent! The only thing Diop and Massey are right about is that Semitic language and culture are derived from Africa but pre-Egyptian Africa via Afrasian!! Again, appeal to authority on Africanist scholars cannot save you! Diop and others were right about some things but wrong about others. Of course no doubt me pointing out some of their errors makes me "anti-African" in your eyes doesn't it?? Even though you are really just a punk-ass white boy pretending to be Afrocentrists and hiding your jewphobia behind the likes of Diop and Massey! LOL
quote:These "Asian" civilizations did not spring up independent and autonomous from the worlds first civilization in the Nile Valley and you are alone in arguing this - well you have company in Lefkowitz your teacher Not Out Of Africa.
Don't you mean Lefkowitz YOUR beloved mistress who you love mentioning so often, not I!! Actually her premise was about Greek civilization springing independently, I'm talking about Southwest Asia!! And I never said Southwest Asian civilization developed independently as well since we all know the neolithic development there was also a result of African forbearers likely proto-Semitic speakers!
quote:Sorry mary, the Hebrews were influenced by Africa [in fact they say their founder/law giver was African and indirectly from Africa through places like Sumer and Canaan. And of course according to their own tradition, the founder of Judaism (i.e. Hebrew mythology) was African. LOL
Sorry sodomized wap, but I'm not "Mary" and I never denied Hebrews influenced by Africa. What I do deny or rather acknowledge any absent evidence of is that Hebrew mythology and cosmology is Egyptian when it clearly is not! I presented all the evidence above yet all you do now is try to 'Egyptianize' those sources when there is non to speak of like the desperate little liar you are! LOL Oh and all the gremlins sticking their tongues out certainly won't help either.
quote:See sources above moron.
What sources? You just cite the names of authors. How about citing their works that verify anything! My oh my, one would think you would at least know how to properly cite actual works or writings, but apparently I overestimated your dumbass.
quote:Other stuff like monotheism, genesis, proverbs, serpent and staff symbolism, temple structure, rituals, laws, Ark of the Covenant, a literate priesthood? I already defeated you with them.
LOL Really? where?! It's been explained to you in several pages already that Monotheism came about much later in Israel and Egyptians weren't even monotheistic! I've proven to you that the Genesis story is West Asian and not Egyptian, serpents are not sacred in Judaic belief, rituals are Canaanite so are laws including dietary restrictions against certain animals which the Egyptians didn't have. Literate priesthood, all the ancient peoples of the Levant had that. The only thing you have is 'Proverbs' and temple structures which I never denied.
quote:LOL This is a lie of course, not even the defenders of the Elba tablets say this.
Then let me correct myself-- The Garden of Eden, the Flood, and the names of Patriarch ancestors and tribal settlements are found in Elba. Are any of these found in Egypt??
quote:Already exposed this straw.
Exposed it where?? You realize that true monotheism happend much later in Israelite history, before that they were henotheistic acknowledging the existence of other deities-- non of which by the way were Egyptian.
[quoter]Oh how it must pain you to admit this much while condescendingly down playing their relevance. You are the liberal version of Dirk, Kemp et al. I have indeed succeeded in exposing your lilly white liberal racist ass! LOL [/QUOTE]LMAO
The ONLY thing you succeed in doing is psychologically PROJECTING!! The only white liberal here is obviously YOU who gets insulted everytime someone has somethng negative to say about your European heritage! Don't even play wap! Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: But in terms of actual spritual beliefs and mythologies, can you point out any concepts that are African as in Egyptian??
Pretending you weren't beatdown on this before won't help you.
quote: Ebla is NOT a source of "influence" but a very source of Hebrew culture including spiritual beliefs, period!
Again, not even the defenders of the texts say this.
quote:the early Hebrews were essentially Canaanites.
No! You don't say!
quote:And we know that Canaanite and definitely Sumerian myth is NOT an outgrowth of Egypt but is independent!
Not true. Diop, Massey, Breasted, Barashango, Van Sertima etc etc all contradict you. Early "Asian" civilisations were black and heavily influenced by Nile Valley/ Africa.
quote: Again, appeal to authority on Africanist scholars cannot save you!
Dismissing them without being able to back up your position (like you did Prof. James) never saved you! LOL
quote: Of course no doubt me pointing out some of their errors makes me "anti-African" in your eyes doesn't it??
No, you dismissing them without evidence makes you anti-African.
quote: I've proven to you that the Genesis story is West Asian and not Egyptian
No you haven't. LOL
quote: serpents are not sacred in Judaic belief
This is a straw.
quote: rituals are Canaanite so are laws including dietary restrictions
LOL Yet another straw. Hebrew tradition says all this was introduced by and AFRICAN, not a Canaanite.
quote: Literate priesthood, all the ancient peoples of the Levant had that.
Straw.
quote: The only thing you have is 'Proverbs' and temple structures which I never denied.
A lie.
quote: Then let me correct myself
You mean let you take your foot out of your mouth! Go ahead, it's not like it's the first time for you. LOL
quote: The Garden of Eden, the Flood, and the names of Patriarch ancestors and tribal settlements are found in Elba.
Poor you, relying on old debunked news. The initial media sensationalism over the Elba texts have since been deflated (see Chavalas and Younger, 2003). Sorry, you have in no way "proven" that "the religious and spiritual traditions of Jews can all be traced to their Hebrew ancestors at Elba" much less your other imbecilic claim of an African author of the Torah copying "Asian" stories and giving it to the Hebrews. LOL
Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
lol @ bogled booty
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Diop, Massey, Breasted, Barashango, Van Sertima etc etc all contradict you. Early "Asian" civilisations were black and heavily influenced by Nile Valley/ Africa.
What bioanthropological evidence supports your claim that early Southwest Asian civilizations were established by people with an Africoid phenotype?
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
^ oh god, read the sources. unless you have evidence they were whites or Bowcock's mainland Chinese.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
Exactly how early is that Iranian sample? It could be from thousands of years before civilization first appeared in the Southwest Asian region.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Early SW Asian looked like black people, with cosmology similar to their kin in Africa/Nile Valley. Again, if you have evidence that by the time the Sumerians (civilisation) came on the scene they morphed into whites or white Arab-looking please post it.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've posted these three works time and time again but they go ignored (or feared) because they deflate the lie that Hebrew theology is not African.
quote: Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
The biggest lie is assigning the Arabian Peninsula and the abutting lands north up to the Taurus/Zagros mountain chains as part of the Asian continent when geologically they are not. This lie is what allows for removing the Hebrews and other Semitic speakers from their African context.
Europe on the other hand is a part of Asia, yet no one but no one ever questions Europe as a separate continent all of its own.
Show me the Siberians, Kamchakta, Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Phillipinos, Malays, Laotians, Thais, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Myanmar, Tibet or Nepal peoples who even remotely have a language, culture or religion minutely approaching that of the Israelites.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've posted these three works time and time again but they go ignored (or feared) because they deflate the lie that Hebrew theology is not African.
quote: Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Liverpool: University Press of Liverpool ltd., 1922 Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
Europe on the other hand is a part of Asia, yet no one but no one ever questions Europe as a separate continent all of its own.
Show me the Siberians, Kamchakta, Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Phillipinos, Malays, Laotians, Thais, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Myanmar, Tibet or Nepal peoples who even remotely have a language, culture or religion minutely approaching that of the Israelites.
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
Truth is, ever since page two on this thread Mary never had an argument to begin with. She exposed herself when she tried to dismiss Prof. James as silly [without being able to back it up of course] as well as the massive Egyptian influence on Judaism and Greek classical philosophy. Apart from her reliance on lies, straws, old disproven exaggerations and thread evasions, she got nothing. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL Truth is of course there is no "Mary" here. "Mary" is the imaginary Jewish lady you run from in your mind. This is DJEHUTI a man and true scholar. Now address me unless you are too scared. Who do fear more? Me or your Lady Jew??
quote:Originally posted by Bogled booty: Pretending you weren't beatdown on this before won't help you.
LOL Um I wasn't! Pretending I somehow got a "beatdown" from you definitely won't save your sorry ass! Again, tell me what Hebrew mythologies are Egyptian in origin?? We've gone over this in the last page but apparently you are too stubborn and too stupid to admit defeat!
quote:Again, not even the defenders of the texts say this.
LOL Really and what "defenders" do you speak of?? I smell the stench of desperate face-saving lies! Ebla is actually the very first evidence of Hebrew/Israelite people.
quote:No! You don't say!
Well, I've said alot of things, but apparently they all fly over your sexually abused little mind.
quote:Not true. Diop, Massey, Breasted, Barashango, Van Sertima etc etc all contradict you. Early "Asian" civilisations were black and heavily influenced by Nile Valley/ Africa.
Again I never said early West Asian civilizations weren't black but obviously they were still Asian. And as far as heavily influenced by Africa it's called Semitic. But that is besides the point that the mythological traditions and spiritual beliefs are still in situ derived and not Nile Valley unless you can prove this and not cite authors with vague statements that I never disputed, like the desperate loser you are!
quote:Dismissing them without being able to back up your position (like you did Prof. James) never saved you! LOL
LOL Of course because I don't need saving unlike YOUR sorry ass! You see I don't dismiss any Africanist scholar entirely. It depends on the position and point. Even many here agree that while some of these early Africanist scholars were correct on some things they were inaccurate about other things. It all depends on what it is and last time I checked non of these scholars say that wholesale ancient Israelite or other Asian cultures were mere rip-offs of Egyptian culture, dickfungus!
quote:No, you dismissing them without evidence makes you anti-African.
But I provided the evidence you, fool!
quote:No you haven't. LOL
Yes I have! Again on the previous page or has your dumb ass forgotten?!
quote:This is a straw.
No your whole argument is a straw and one covered in excrement and anal mucus no doubt from being stuffed in your over-sodomizedass!
quote:LOL Yet another straw. Hebrew tradition says all this was introduced by an AFRICAN, not a Canaanite.
LOL by an African I suppose you mean Moses, of course he and the Israelites technically were Africans in that they've been living in Africa but that does not negate the fact that they were originally from the Levant or the fact that these traditions are specific to peoples in the Levant and NOT indigenous Egyptians or Africans! Which makes YOUR argument the broken straw! LMAO
quote:Straw.
Is what YOUR argument was from the start and a broken one at that! LOL
quote:A lie.
Is all you have to make yourself feel good!
quote:You mean let you take your foot out of your mouth! Go ahead, it's not like it's the first time for you. LOL
Nope! I've never done that. You see, I need to be specific because I know your subtle slimyass (no doubt from all the lubricants) loves to distort my words unless I put them in specific context like you did with many of my quotes.
quote:Poor you, relying on old debunked news. The initial media sensationalism over the Ebla texts have since been deflated (see Chavalas and Younger, 2003). Sorry, you have in no way "proven" that "the religious and spiritual traditions of Jews can all be traced to their Hebrew ancestors at Ebla" much less your other imbecilic claim of an African author of the Torah copying "Asian" stories and giving it to the Hebrews. LOL
Poor YOU cuz you are too stupid to realize that you were debunked again on the previous page of this thread. Again I urge you to take a look to jog up that boggled mind of yours. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I've posted these three works time and time again but they go ignored (or feared) because they deflate the lie that Hebrew theology is not African.
quote: Edward H. Sugden Israel's debt to Egypt London: The Epworth Press, 1928
W.O.E Oesterley The Wisdom of Egypt & the Old Testament In the Light of the Newly Discovered 'Teaching of Amen-Em-Ope London/New York; Toronto: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; Macmillan, 1927.
T. Eric Peet Egypt and the Old Testament Boston: Small, Maynard & Co., 1923
The biggest lie is assigning the Arabian Peninsula and the abutting lands north up to the Taurus/Zagros mountain chains as part of the Asian continent when geologically they are not. This lie is what allows for removing the Hebrews and other Semitic speakers from their African context.
Europe on the other hand is a part of Asia, yet no one but no one ever questions Europe as a separate continent all of its own.
Show me the Siberians, Kamchakta, Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Phillipinos, Malays, Laotians, Thais, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Myanmar, Tibet or Nepal peoples who even remotely have a language, culture or religion minutely approaching that of the Israelites.
I understand what you are saying Takruri. I know that Europe is merely a subcontinent of Asia and I never denied that. I also know that the Arabian peninsula and Levant all the way of to the Zagros is geologically part of the African plate although now that it is melded with Asia now which is another reason why the seperation of human populations from African to non-African even though humans just entered that area only relatively recently is more absurd! And I'm sure you also know that I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African and I deny no connection between the Semitic cultures of Hebrews Arabs and others to Africa, but the issue is whether Hebrew culture entirely is a direct by product of Egypt, which of course it isn't! It's obvious the jew-frightened fag just wants to discredit ancient Jewish culture.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boggled-booty in another thread: i'm not the one claiming purity you jewish nazi (zionist). how idiotic! lol
LMAO Just because I claim I'm not of recent African ancestry means I claim some racial purity, moron!! Speaking of idiotic, I can't help but notice your typical white liberal jewphobic remark of "jewish nazi (zionist)" which is a self-contradiction if ever there was one! You realize that Jews are the victims of nazims and zionism itself only sprang from the oppression of nazis?! So how can zionism be nazism?? That's like some one calling an Africanist black a KKK! LOL
But I don't expect your ignorant dumb white degenerate-ass to know anything. Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote: Really and what "defenders" do you speak of??
Yep, just as I thought. No clue about the texts.
quote: But that is besides the point that the mythological traditions and spiritual beliefs are still in situ derived and not Nile Valley unless you can prove this
I, great jew, Evergreen already beat you down on this. However it can never constitute "proof" to people like you or Lefkowitz; your Not Out Of Africa ideology precludes this.
quote: last time I checked non of these scholars say that wholesale ancient Israelite or other Asian cultures were mere rip-offs of Egyptian culture
Neither did I, you desperate lying Philipino. LOL
quote: Yes I have
Dufus, you have in no way proven that the Hebrew "genesis story" was "Asian". You show similarities to "Asian" mythology, I showed Egyptian similarities.
quote:of course he and the Israelites technically were Africans in that they've been living in Africa but that does not negate the fact that they were originally from the Levant or the fact that these traditions are specific to peoples in the Levant and NOT indigenous Egyptians or Africans!
So again your position is that an African, "technically", gave "technically Africans" Asian stories. You defeated jackass! LOL
quote: Poor YOU cuz you are too stupid to realize that you were debunked again on the previous page of this thread. Again I urge you to take a look to jog up that boggled mind of yours.
Yep, just as I thought. No answer to the fact that you were peddling wild exaggerations long debunked. LOL
quote:Semitic language and culture is also African
Wow. Great Jew is truly great. Only he can force this about-face from a stubborn jackass like you. What ever happned to your Hebrew cultre=Asian (Ebler/Syria) not Egyptian/African squirming?
quote:the issue is whether Hebrew culture entirely is a direct by product of Egypt
WAAHAHAHAH
No that is not the issue Mary and you know it! That is your straw after you were thoroughly thrashed!!! LOL
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You realize that Jews are the victims of nazims and zionism itself only sprang from the oppression of nazis?! So how can zionism be nazism??
Zionism predated Nazism you ignorant jackass; and they are mirror ideologies hence their alliance during WW2. Aren't you tired of looking like an imbecile Mary?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
How is it now melded with Asia when the Taurus/Zagros chain is there as a solid geographical barrier separating the original languages and cultures? The only reason the people aren't so separated is that EurAsians passed the Daryal Gorge to invade the Arabian plate. The fact is Islam partially semitized Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, western Pakistan and the 'Russian-stans' more thoroughly than did transposed Israelites and their way of life.
Of course ancient Israel 'spirituality' was not 100% borrowed from Egypt. But none of it came from Asia except the names of the angels came from Persia. What's true is that large parts of it are a joint heritage of the Arabian plate peoples of the Tigris, Euphates, and Orontes.
But that was before Egypt. After becoming a nation in Egypt and alledgedly being led by a former prince of Egypt (which is the greater part of their history) there is a decided Egyptian bent to much of the way of life. The milk and meat regulations, menstrual taboo, and the like are familiar all along the Great Rift the geological/geographical feature uniting the Arabian plate with NE Africa unlike the way the mountains keep Asia apart from the Arabian Plate.
I know it's easier said then done yet we have to try hard not to allow trollers to goad us into hasty rash statements.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I understand what you are saying Takruri. I know that Europe is merely a subcontinent of Asia and I never denied that. I also know that the Arabian peninsula and Levant all the way of to the Zagros is geologically part of the African plate although now that it is melded with Asia now which is another reason why the seperation of human populations from African to non-African even though humans just entered that area only relatively recently is more absurd! And I'm sure you also know that I acknowledge that that Semitic language and culture is also African and I deny no connection between the Semitic cultures of Hebrews Arabs and others to Africa, but the issue is whether Hebrew culture entirely is a direct by product of Egypt, which of course it isn't!
Posted by Bogle (Member # 16736) on :
LMAO @ Great Jew taking on stubborn Mary who is trying to sneak in Asia through the back door. You fight for your Asia girl! lol
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I apologize if anyone already mentioned this but apparently according to Mohamed Moses was black. I wouldn't really care and I'd have to ask why did Mohamed find it important to tell everyone this but perhaps that was the Arabic way of saying Moses was African/Egyptian. Also importantly some Muslims hold Moses and Mohamed on the same level but opinions differ between people
quote:Another reason we are raising this awareness of the appearance of the original Arabs is so that it can be clear to all who are prejudice against dark skin and all who look down on dark skin that they are prejudice against and looking down on the Prophet Mohamed's people and family and they are also prejudice against and looking down on other prophets. I have proven on this website that the Arabs were a black-skinned people. All Muslims should also know that the Prophet Moses was black-skinned because the Prophet Mohamed described him as black-skinned. What I am saying here on this website are not things that I have made up. Everything that I am saying is written clearly in the reliable books of the past. The question is, why are people ignoring these things?
quote:To the Jews Muhammad was indebted for almost all the stories and many of the laws in the Quran. This, with strange misunderstandings, gives a large part of pre= Christian religious history. Moses, e. g., was a black man! Abraham is represented as directing his children about Islam, the true religion, and is accounted the first Penitent (Hanif), the founder of the Muslim faith in its present form.
quote:6. We protest Muhammad's being revered over Abraham, Jesus, Moses, and all of God's prophets and messengers. God bless and honor them all!
7. We also protest the fact that the terms "the prophet" and "the messenger" are only used for Muhammad, giving him preference over God's other prophets and messengers.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Pointing out that Moses was "black" suggests that being "black" makes him stand out. Is this in the Koran or Hadith?
quote:8. Lastly we protest against belief in the Hadeeth as absolutely true accounts of Muhammad's words and his companions' words, because they not only contradict each other but they also contradict the Koran. The Koran says that Muhammad revealed nothing but the Koran. There are also Hadeeths that say that any saying other than the Koran that came from Muhammad's mouth should be erased. With all of the above in mind ProGod.org questions why anyone would still insist that Muhammad's, or any of God's messengers', examples can be accurately found in these Hadeeths?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ We are talking about the origins of Hebrew or ancient Israelite religious mythology and beliefs. Boggled-ass claims it comes from the Nile Valley but as can be read in the past several pages it doesn't. This not to say there was no Egyptian influence at all on Israelite tradition, but as far as actual mythology including cosmology and cosmogony it is obviously Canaanite with obvious Mesopotamian motifs.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
Repeating old beaten down talking points doesn't make them valid troll. Take your lazy ass and go read the books Great Jew gave you.
Posted by the lion (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bogle: backward Hebrew tribes people.
do you really endorse this term "backward tribes" ?
Posted by the lion (Member # 17353) on :
The most well researched and best book on this topic is the book below winner of the 1993 "Best Scholarly Book in Archaeology" awarded by the Biblical Archaeological Society ___________________________
EGYPT, CAANAN, AND ISRAEL IN ANCIENT TIMES BY DONALD B. REDFORD
Princeton University Press (September 20, 1993)
ISBN-10: 0691000867
512 pages __________________________
In this book Redford argues that the experiences of the Hyksos in Egypt became a central foundation of myths in Canaanite culture, leading to the story of Moses. He further argues that many of the details in the Exodus story are more consistent with the 7th century BC, long after the time of King David, rather than the era when the event is described as having taken place. He also provides evidence in the book of dissenting arguments.
you can search some of the book here on Amazon link:
Donald B. Redford (born September 2, 1934) is a Canadian Egyptologist and archaeologist, currently Professor of Classics and Ancient Mediterranean Studies at Pennsylvania State University. He is married to Susan Redford, who is also an Egyptologist currently teaching classes at the university. Professor Redford has directed a number of important excavations in Egypt, notably at Karnak and Mendes. Along with his wife Susan Redford, he is the director of the Akhenaten Temple Project. Redford's work in editing The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, published in 2001, earned the American Library Association's Dartmouth Medal for a reference work of outstanding quality and significance. Since 2006 he is also in the editorial board of RIHAO.
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
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