posted
Title of one of Dr Ben's earliest works (originally written in Spanish in Puerto Rico). This thread is only for those who own the book, have it readily at hand, and thus able to supply fully cited quotes as reference to any comments posted.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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I am glad that I left EgyptSearch for a time because it has allowed me time to reflect over a bunch of information and analyze in peace without the constant bickering.
You were right in what you wrote in your original website. I hope you saved the pages. I certainly did.
We must use logic!!!
The Canaanites, Hebrews, Phoenicians had a western coastal access to the Mediterreanean Sea. They sent out boats to reach North Africa and Southern Europe. They shared a lot of culture with the other ethnic groups of this region.
The Ancient Egyptians were Black people whose culture was similar to that of Africans in other areas. They walked around practically naked.
Most Jews today are either White or Near White.
Former Chief Sephardic Rabbi Yitzhak Nissim
The Beta Israel probably are descendeded from Temani Yehudim plus Cushites.
Most other groups Black groups are probably descended from some type of race mixing between Jews and Blacks. Maybe you don't like it, but look at the history of Sephardic Black Jews.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
The Lemba are mixed with Temanim and in West.
The Igbo are not the only Jews in West Africa and Nigeria's Igboland is far from the northern tip of Africa. Most like a Jew slept with a Black woman and had mulatto kids and passed on religion and culture. That's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It says plainly Jews entered West Africa going south and shows pictures of the Iddao Ishak Tuaregs.
But, all this is from mixing an outside Israelite culture onto and African base.
The Igbo are not the only West African Jews.
You must also include some Sahelians who converted to Islam and any part-Berber group since the original religion of the Berbers was the origianl Israelite religion.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I tried to tell you before. Ismael Diadie Haidara wrote a book on the Jews of Timbuktu in FRENCH!!!!
I read the book!
LES JUIFS A TOMBOUCTOU
Du même auteur, que l'Espagne musulmane et l'Afrique subsaharienne, cet ouvrage est une recherche historique à partir des sources écrites sur la présence des juifs à Tombouctou au XIXe siècle.
TIMBUKTU, Mali — Ismaël Diadié Haïdara held a treasure in his slender fingers that has somehow endured through 11 generations — a square of battered leather enclosing a history of the two branches of his family, one side reaching back to the Visigoths in Spain and the other to the ancient origins of the Songhai emperors who ruled this city at its zenith.
Wikipedia shows this page with a Caucasoid Jewish Rabbi, but not the Sahelian offspring of the Sephardic Jews from Spain.
A lot of the info is missing and has been wiped off French language boards.
Well, I will tell you this the cover of the "Juifs a Tombouctou" book was a tan color with an Arabic manuscript front and back. The Jews in Timbuktu wrote in and were mentioned in Arabic language texts. I'll save the rest of the info for myself.
But, your website was right all along. It's not just the Igbo.
----------------------- What is more important is Africans in the New World were freed from slavery LIKE LIKE LIKE the Jews.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: Maybe you should take it to a jewish board, this is "egyptsearch" not "jewishsearch".
Evergreen Writes:
The comment above demonstrates a profound ignorance about ancient NE African civilization. The ancient "Jews" were a branch of the ancient Canaanites. The ancient Canaanites in turn were subjects of the Ancient Egyptians and contained a genetic affinity with them as well.
The writing system we now use is based upon the evolution of Ancient Egyptian writing to Canaanite writing to the Latin Alphabet, etc. The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: [QUOTE]The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Evergreen Posts:
We The Black Jews
By Y. ben-Jochannan
"Since Judaism is the first step from the Nile Valley Africans' theosophical (spiritual) base of the so-called "Three Revealed Religions - Judaism, Judaeo-Christianity, and Judaeo-Christianity-Islam," it is only rational to assume that they too must fall in line."
Evergreen Writes:
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
What I find insulting and appalling is how many of you insult our intelligence with diatribe of this kind over and over again spewing forth nonsensical stuff that is designed to confuse people.
First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning. What we have is just geograhical adaptations of various populations.
Hebrews had intermediate adaptions that fit with their West Asian indigenous physiology but being intermediate meant there was enough diversity that some of the members would appear to us as being part of the Black or White social group. The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. However, their origins are not tropical like Africans and though mixed with European descent they were still a recognizable group in Europe well into the renaissance period. Apparently there was enough difference between Jews and Italians that for centuries we can find evidence of Jewish ghettos which implies ethnic segregation similar to what we see in American history.
Essentially we have a geographic origin that would logically result in a diverse population containing so called "Black" members in a social context that is relative to Western paradigms. The fallacy is that it has to be all one or the other. This is a problem people get into from America is the idea that there were discrete boundaries between races in ancient times. Jim Crowe has in someways made us think that in ancient times Whites lived only in one place and Blacks only in another. This is not at all true. In fact, over a lifetime people were far more mobile in the past than what we are use to, not being tied down to careers, economics and boundaries.
Outside of Jewish tradition, the origins of Hebrews makes little sense. In fact, the more I look at the skeletal and genetic evidence, the flood myth doesn't at all seem so mythological.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
To a certain extent this has some validity. I see it exemplified maybe in the "ransom" prophecy
quote: For I am the LORD thy God, The Holy One of Yisra'el, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Kush and S*ba' for thee.
and the "equals" prophecy.
quote: Are ye not as the b*nei Kushiyyiym unto Me, O b*nei Yisra'el? oracles the ETERNAL. Have not I brought up Yisra'el out of the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor, and 'Aram from Kir?
But generally speaking various nations have their own prophecies alotted to them. Not that there is not, but I can't recall a prophecy that blankets all the various peoples of Africa.
For the Israelites prophecy is the exact words of the deity uttered through the mouth of a mortal of the deity's choosing. Hence prophecy is not limited to forseeing the future.
In the ransom prophecy we see Israel only has three possible nations/peoples as worthy as they deem themselves: Egypt, Kush, and S*ba'.
To an extorter or kidnapper or whatever, the ransom is as the same value as the hostage. To whit the equals prophecy where Kushites and Israelites are equated.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: [QUOTE]The Judeo-Christian religions are Eurasian psychographic modifications of the more complex, symmetrical Ancient African cosmology - Maat.
Evergreen Posts:
We The Black Jews
By Y. ben-Jochannan
"Since Judaism is the first step from the Nile Valley Africans' theosophical (spiritual) base of the so-called "Three Revealed Religions - Judaism, Judaeo-Christianity, and Judaeo-Christianity-Islam," it is only rational to assume that they too must fall in line."
Evergreen Writes:
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning.
Evergreen Writes:
Relativism. Using this approach there would be no such thing as a "thing" since all things vary based upon forms of substance (solids, liquids, gases, etc.).
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time.
Evergreen Writes:
Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But generally speaking various nations have their own prophecies alotted to them. Not that there is not, but I can't recall a prophecy that blankets all the various peoples of Africa.
Evergreen Writes:
Given the time-depth under review (pre-Judaic historical) there were few literate peoples for the modeling of a valid comparison outside of the ancient Egyptians. My assumption is that the ancient Egyptian worldview is broadly representative of the generalized African worldview of the time.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
This is a true insult to intelligence. There were no Ashkenazim in the first imperial Roman era. Mishnah was composed in that epoch and says Israel was the colour of boxwood or of honey. Out in the streets the common Roman thought Judaeans were a kind of Ethiopian.
quote: The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus
and one Greco-Latin author flat out ranked Judaeans as Egyptian.
quote: One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
Unless the Ethiopians and Egyptians are too examples of your unmixed whites, the idea of "white Jews" before north and northeast Mediterraneans (and even Danube Europeans) nationalized as Jews is an idea with very little evidence to back it up. I doubt a white people who are so very in love with their skin colour would have leprosy laws worded the way they are in the Five Books of Moses.
Now as for the white jew black jew dichotomy that's terminology first put into place by the Jews of India.
And to bring things back on topic (Dr. Ben's book) that's something written about in the object of the subject header announcing the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. .
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: For the Israelites prophecy is the exact words of the deity uttered through the mouth of a mortal of the deity's choosing.
Evergreen Writes:
This makes sense. Western Man is left-brain oriented by nature and hence literalistic, materialistic and objective. The Canaanites, like the later Greeks were both students of the ancient African legacy. Yet much of this legacy was symbolic and not simply open to literal or exact interpretation. With the decline of the Egyptian priesthood man fell into a dark-age which we have yet to fully recover from.
"For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath."
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: What I find insulting and appalling is how many of you insult our intelligence with diatribe of this kind over and over again spewing forth nonsensical stuff that is designed to confuse people.
First, there is no such thing as White and Black scientifically since it cannot be defined objectively in a way that also has a social meaning.
For me this is always the 'event horizon' of your rhetoric.
The point at which you cease to make any sense.
You say there is no such thing as Black and White as ethnic references.
This is, of course, and ideological stance, and a bald faced lie, since these ancient social references do exist.
The fact that you do not like them -- has no bearing -- on their existence.
Only a child pretends things don't exist, because they don't like them.
You then try to find and excuse for your lie, by way of and incoherent babblement which goes like this:
Black and White are not scientific, and objective, in the social sense, which so makes them, non-existent.
But of course all social constructs are subjective and relative, so it is useless to beg for objective absolutist definitions of 'terms which you don't like'.
Anyone debunking you only has to demand the same of any term you happen to like..... and the root fallacy is easily exposed.
Again, that's a childs approach to debating.
This childish hypocrisy you traffic in is easily outed whenever we ask you for you scientific objective and absolutist definition of "Jew".
You never answer this question, because *you don't have one.*
Because there isn't one, and you know it.
And it is at this point, that your entire ideology falls apart.
When made to face this fact, you then resort to troll noises. [anything to take us away from the question you won't answer...and without this answer your ideology can *never make sense*].
Proof of this - is in your *failure* to address the topic: JEWISH RACE MYTH.
Instead you attempt to deflect this into and attack on the notion of Blackness.
ps -
It's funny to read your post along with AlTakruri's and Evergreens.
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen: Are there any "unmixed people"? If not, how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
You will get no answer.
Amr1. Salassin. {jamie, of the 1000 alias'] Osirion
Brief list of advocates of of the notion of classification: 'mixed' on ES, yet who cannot answer this simple question with regards to the their ideology.
Most people who believe in the existence of Jews can at least tell you who *isn't* Jewish. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Waste of time - they were neither white nor black, terms void of usefulness.
West Asian is all you have to say.
There are Africans, European, East Asians and West Asians, Polynesian people, Australians and Eskimo.
White and Black make no sense!
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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There are Africans, European, East Asians and West Asians, Polynesian people, Australians and Eskimo.
White and Black make no sense!
Evergreen Writes:
African, European, East Asian, West Asian, Polynesian, Australian and Eskimo are all terms created by Whites. Why are these terms any more valid than Black or White?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"? [/QB]
You are not stupid so don't play childish games. Discrete calculus allows for fuzzy logic with thresholds. Our minds are built on this type of thinking - fuzzy logic. We need to think in discrete ways and as a result we naturally catergorize things even though they are not exactly uniform. We use social constructs to define these thresholds on what is and is not considered mixed. In fact I completely agree with you and as such you cannot define discete paradigms that have a uniform concept of White and Black. It cannot exist without fuzzy logic since no one has a homogenous lineage when considering population geneflow.
This is what bothers me about many arguments made here at ES. First the premise that racial constructs do not exist such as Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid but the concept of White and Black is fine? This is a blatant double standard. This is why I try to stick to geographical definitions of people rather than trying to fall back to the beggardly constructs of phenotype classifications such as Caucasoid or White.
Indigenous European, Indigenous Africans, Indigenous West Asians, Indigenous Australians.
All of the above has mixture which may or may not result in phenotypes that do not fit into the paradigm of phenochotmy based on what is believed to be the racial type of those people.
So with that in mind I don't really care if we describe them as mixed. Greeks, Jews, Egyptians, Fulani, Pygmy, San - all mixed but with what is a function of their indigenous locale.
Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia which is a trade route between Africa, Europe and East Asia. Over time they would naturally contain this mixture of people.
North Africa Neighbors both Europe (gibraltar) and West Asia so their is also that mixture.
Depending on location the misture can be acute or negligible. When it is acute then fuzzy logic fails and politics takes over and this is what were spend our years discussing - politics of the fuzzy wuzzy world.
To me - West Asian tells me enough - next to Africa and Europe - duh!
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: West Asian is all you have to say.
^ Who are you even supposed to be talking too?
Did you answer any of my questions?
No you didn't.
So why do you imagine your incoherent babbling is a substitute for answering?
Until you learn to answer questions you have nothing to say... all your mindless jabbering on about "jewishness" - [a truly meaningless term - whenever YOU use it] - notwithstanding.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
^ Right now, provide the unambiguous "universal" meaning of *all* of those terms.
Or stand exposed once more as a jabbering idiot.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"? [/qb]
quote:Jabbering Idiot writes: You are not stupid so don't play childish games.
...but you are, so what other kind of games is there to play with you?
Proof?
Instead of answering Evergreeens question, you waste 5 paragraphs vomiting all over yourself [like a child]...and STILL fail to answer.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: This is a true insult to intelligence. There were no Ashkenazim in the first imperial Roman era. Mishnah was composed in that epoch and says Israel was the colour of boxwood or of honey. Out in the streets the common Roman thought Judaeans were a kind of Ethiopian.
quote: The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus
and one Greco-Latin author flat out ranked Judaeans as Egyptian.
quote: One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
Unless the Ethiopians and Egyptians are too examples of your unmixed whites, the idea of "white Jews" before north and northeast Mediterraneans (and even Danube Europeans) nationalized as Jews is an idea with very little evidence to back it up. I doubt a white people who are so very in love with their skin colour would have leprosy laws worded the way they are in the Five Books of Moses.
Now as for the white jew black jew dichotomy that's terminology first put into place by the Jews of India.
And to bring things back on topic (Dr. Ben's book) that's something written about in the object of the subject header announcing the topic of this thread.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time. .
I heard that the original Jews could have been simular too or ancestors of the Modern Ethiopians...and in my veiw the A. Egyptians were simular to Ethiopians...I also read about the Jews in Mali Empire and other West African nations during the Mid Eval eras....some Books are being found at Timbuctou written in Hebrew...could it be possible some West Africans have Jewish/Hebrew blood...?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: I heard that the original Jews could have been simular too or ancestors of the Modern Ethiopians...and in my veiw the A. Egyptians were simular to Ethiopians
The ancient Egyptians were similar to present day Sudanese and indigenous Egyptians not Ethiopians. Get up off your ass and research. You'll find that you won't make such an idiot out of yourself that way.
Also, quit trying to act like you are some kind of a deity that has the right to assign cultures and history to groups of people on some arbitrary basis such as you like the way they look. You're a sick person.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: the topic: JEWISH RACE MYTH.
Learn to read child. Topic is white Jewish race myth, taken from Dr. Ben's book. He's challenging the notion that only your devil jew magog people are able to define who is and who isn't "Jewish".
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote: The so called "White" Jews are similar to African Americans in that they were enslaved by the Romans and became a mixed people over time.
So by your own definition that makes white Europeans such as the English and the French, Arabs, Persians, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans mixed.
Do you believe the groups mentioned above are mixed?
An important question not addressed in ben-Jochannan's work is the validity of the ancient African cosmologies in relation to forecasting future human affairs (prophecy). If the Torah-Bible-Koran are modifications of the lost books of Africa and if one emphasis of these lost African books was predicting future natural and spiritual events/affairs, how valid are these predictions and can the prophecy of Israel symbolize the plight of Africans and the African diaspora in particular? [/QB]
Awesome question!! What I have always needed answered. U put one of the major pieces of this puzzle into perspective. Thanks
Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ They have discrete meanings that are standardized and not socio-political terms that are not universally accepted and ambigous.
^ Right now, provide the unambiguous "universal" meaning of *all* of those terms.
Or stand exposed once more as a jabbering idiot.
Answer not a fool with foolish questions lest you be liken to one!
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Are there any "unmixed people"? If not how can a people be classified as a "mixed people"?
quote:Jabbering Idiot writes: You are not stupid so don't play childish games.
...but you are, so what other kind of games is there to play with you?
Proof?
Instead of answering Evergreeens question, you waste 5 paragraphs vomiting all over yourself [like a child]...and STILL fail to answer. [/QB]
Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Medi-centrist will not like this but most Mediteranean people exhibit mixture to a significantly high degree. It is less evident amongst the Welch and Swedes. It is also less evident amongst pygmies of West Africa. At some point mixture is negligible and not warranteed as a description of the people.
Arabs and Jews have something is common besides being West Asian in origins - they are clearly a mixed people.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Evergreen Writes:
Which groups of people in Africa, Europe or SW Asia are "unmixed" in your worldview?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Why don't you employ the policy of responding by sending all known trolls to their designated threads?
That way you can keep these educational threads neat - contain the unfortunate responses to the designated threads.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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I've been told or heard White Jews say many times that the original Jews were Black. You could say that there were Blacks in early Greece, Italy and North Africa and in many other places.
Then, the question is what was the nature of their "Judaism"; something similar to the Beta Israel type or even polytheism. They were Wast Africans and not West Africans.
Counting the founders: the matrilineal genetic ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora.Behar DM, Metspalu E, Kivisild T, Rosset S, Tzur S, Hadid Y, Yudkovsky G, Rosengarten D, Pereira L, Amorim A, Kutuev I, Gurwitz D, Bonne-Tamir B, Villems R, Skorecki K. Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa, Israel.
The history of the Jewish Diaspora dates back to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests in the Levant, followed by complex demographic and migratory trajectories over the ensuing millennia which pose a serious challenge to unraveling population genetic patterns. Here we ask whether phylogenetic analysis, based on highly resolved mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) phylogenies can discern among maternal ancestries of the Diaspora. Accordingly, 1,142 samples from 14 different non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities were analyzed. A list of complete mtDNA sequences was established for all variants present at high frequency in the communities studied, along with high-resolution genotyping of all samples. Unlike the previously reported pattern observed among Ashkenazi Jews, the numerically major portion of the non-Ashkenazi Jews, currently estimated at 5 million people and comprised of the Moroccan, Iraqi, Iranian and Iberian Exile Jewish communities showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect, which did however characterize the smaller and more remote Belmonte, Indian and the two Caucasus communities. The Indian and Ethiopian Jewish sample sets suggested local female introgression, while mtDNAs in all other communities studied belong to a well-characterized West Eurasian pool of maternal lineages. Absence of sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages among the North African Jewish communities suggests negligible or low level of admixture with females of the host populations among whom the African haplogroup (Hg) L0-L3 sub-clades variants are common. In contrast, the North African and Iberian Exile Jewish communities show influence of putative Iberian admixture as documented by mtDNA Hg HV0 variants. These findings highlight striking differences in the demographic history of the widespread Jewish Diaspora.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
Let's move on people since obviously Jews can be White or Black based on the new Al TaBSuri definition.
But before I move on lets clarify one point: when I talk about Jews, I am not talking about the Jewish religion at all. This is why I always go back to the concept of Hebrew since the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Hebrews are now members of lots of different religions: Islam, Christian, Judaeo, etc.
As for calling me a troll. That appears to be a label used for anyone that disagrees with the dominant political agenda on this forum. If that is true then it should not apply to me since I do not disagree with the intent but I do disagree with the language.
Africans played a vital part in shaping Western culture and it is so often ignored. I find the focus of this forum to be interesting but I am often critical of the personal nature it takes.
Personal attacks does not promote interest in African history. Contradictory strawman attacks also impede progress in understanding.
Fact: the original Jews were Hebrews.
Hebrews are West Asians - period.
Not Europeans or Africans but sharing heritage with both but still a unique people.
End of story.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
Man, shut the f***k up you little p***y. All you ever do is complain about lack of a censor in here so you can get away with your Jew myths and mischaracterisations of Dr. Ben.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Some groups of people will naturally exhibit mixture to a greater degree than others due to LOCATION. There is a point at which this mixture reaches a crucible where it is a widely known attribute of the population (such as Latin Americans and Arabs). I know of few people that are thick headed enough to claim that the Arab people as a whole are a pure people. It is well known that they are a mixture and the same is true with Latino populations.
Evergreen Writes:
Which groups of people in Africa, Europe or SW Asia are "unmixed" in your worldview?
Evergreen Writes:
I would still like an answer on this.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
There's nothing new about the definition of Jew nor is it made up by me. It is same definition as per Jewish authorities ever since ever since and the same one I've posted numerus times.
'Osirion' is just a joke and nows nothing of Jews and Judasm as per that people themselves as I've proven time and again when I rebuff his private opinions about Jews and Judaism.
Nothing new (and I might add nothing learned by 'Osirion.' As always when shown to be incompetent in reading and analyzing data he'll wait a season or so and come back breying the same asinities.
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews are Hebrews which are indigenous to West Asia ...
... obviously Jews can be White or Black based on the new Al TaBSuri definition.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
If there is such a thing as "original Jews," they would be members of the tribe of Y*hudah only.
Jews today are a conglomeration of all 12 Tribes including the ereb rab (mixed multitude) who left Egypt with them and all the peoples who became either ger toshab (settlers) in the kingdoms of Israel and Judah or ger ssedeq (i.e. converts) to Israelite spirituality where ever in the world they lived.
We're discussing a real people and fabricated personal definitions are disallowed unless we want to indulge in self-serving fantasies.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
An Inuit can convert (nationalize) and become a Jew eligible for the Right of Return to the nation state of Israel. Several Inuit women have done so, orthodox conversion for purposes of marriage, this past decade.
One becoming a Jew by that means obviously has no biological relationship to the Hebrews.
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [qb]But before I move on lets clarify one point: when I talk about Jews, I am not talking about the Jewish religion at all. This is why I always go back to the concept of Hebrew since the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I doubt the Hebrews (70 members of Ya*qob's extended family who migrated to Egypt in the face of starvation) knew much of anything of Judaism as codified since the Anshei K*nesseth G*dolah[/i], especially the wide variety of minhagiym practised by the myriad Jewish communities worldwide today.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] I'd prefer ignoring 'Osirion' but that'd let the hapless unknowing become infected with terminal infectious ignorance.
Jew and Hebrew aren't synonyms. All Jews aren't descended from Hebrews.
...
Osirion enjoys the attention he gets from posting his unsubstanitaied unsupportable opinions knowing we have no choice but waste our time rebuffing and debunking them lest the level of this forum's credibility sink ever lower.
This is the power trollers have (especially in forums without moderators) and revel in, they can control a forum's direction, impede its progress and dilute its positive impact.
Currently we're underging an onslaught by trollers using different techniques not all have the same aim but their effects can all lead to the same end.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [qb] Hebrew s[ ] the lineage of the people that first started practicing the Judaeo faith were Hebrews.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I can't speak for others but when I use troller I mean just that; someone who throws out a baited line in hopes of catching responses. When trolling the troller has no concern for accuracy, validity, or anything remotely connected to posting correct and verifiable information.
Trollers are just running off at the mouth, not at all concerned with the forwarding of knowledge.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Osirion's statement that Hebrews were West Asians is rather null when it comes to actual physical appearance. We know that the populations of Southwest Asia are diverse consisting of various lineages and phenotypes-- some from the west in Africa others from east in Iran, others autochthonous or indigenous but all of whom includes peoples of black phenotypes as well as lighter peoples from further north.
We know that there has been African genetic influence in the Levant since mesolithic times and from paintings from the Egyptians themselves certain groups from the Levant were as dark as they (black). So the existence of black Judaeans shouldn't be a surprise.
Takruri, to get back to your discussion of prophecy as it relates to the Hebrews and Afrasian at large, I am curious about the existence of prophets among the Egyptians and their beliefs regarding them. All I know from Egyptian texts are the mention of certain prophets or sacred oracles among certain deities of a certain districts. Does anyone else know about this??
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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