Fiji, an island archipelago in the Pacific Ocean in the southern tropics is a holiday paradise It has the honor of being the first place on Earth to welcome the new day. It lies longitudinally on the 180th meridian, the International Date Line, which makes a special bend eastwards around the island group so that Fijians will all keep the same time. Fiji is twelve hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time. 3,500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the south-west, and from the north-east, Polynesians and Melanesians paddled their canoes to Fiji to settle in this new land. The natives gradually scattered across the country forming village groups throughout the islands. Until 150 years ago, warring and cannibalism among these early settlers was quite common. But when the first missionaries arrived in 1840 and introduced Christianity, the Fijians were transformed into the gentle, peace-loving devout Christians that we know today.
Of the 330 Fijian islands, only 106 are inhabited. Most of the population of just under one million live on the largest island, Vita Levu. Fiji islanders and Fiji-Indians are the main inhabitants while other islanders, Chinese and Europeans are in the minority. Fiji is a developing country with abundant forest, mineral and fish resources and a thriving sugar industry. Tourism is growing with approximately 350,000 visitors annually. Many come especially to dive among the beautiful coral reefs that surround each island.
The recent military coup has adversely affected Fiji's business economy and the European Union has suspended all aid until the next elections. This has resulted in a drastic down-turn in the building industry because of a lack of available funds. The economy of Fiji is severely depressed with 25% of the people living below the poverty line.
The Fiji-Indians are the businessmen and the towns and city streets are lined with all manner of shops and businesses almost all owned by the Indians. Each town has at least one market place where tourists can have fun bartering for items on sale. The wide variety of stalls offer local fruit and vegetables, wonderful exotic spices like turmeric, ginger, cardamom and chillies, sulis, sarongs, colorful shirts, hand made arts and crafts, beads, pearls, shells, plus many more delights it is almost impossible to visit the market place and come away empty handed.
While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a family-oriented community who live mainly in villages. They live a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with the villagers helping each other. They grow their own fruit and vegetables and keep chickens, goats and cows for eggs, milk and meat. They are practically self-sufficient for their day-to-day sustenance This style of community living is all-encompassing, with each family member from the oldest to the youngest being treated as a person of worth. Many Fijians are employed in the luxury tourist resorts, sugar mills, and other laboring jobs where they work for just $1 - $2 an hour.
A visit to Fiji is a step back in time there are no high-rise buildings, crowds, commercialism, fast cars (there is an 80kph speed limit), in fact, it's as if you have entered a time warp from the 1970s. The pace is slower Fiji time'. That is how things are done here no hurry, so just settle back and enjoy your Fijian holiday. Bula!
.
A factual guide to Fiji - Australia & South Pacific - Helium - by ... 3500 years ago, natives from Tanganyika in East Africa arrived from the ... While the Fiji-Indians are relatively prosperous, the Fijian natives are a ... www.helium.com/ tm/856986/ island-archipelago- pacific-ocean - 33k - Cached - Similar pages Chronological History of Tanganyika (Tanzania) Interestingly, the flowering tree seen in the images below is common to both Tanganyika and Fiji. In Fiji it is called the Fijian Tulip and is found all ... www.fijibure. com/tang. htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages More results from www.fijibure. com Friends of the Serengeti The Fijian's believe that their forefathers recently (about 600 years ago) came from Tanganyika the accepted cradle of man! www.tokencoins. com/gea05. htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods | Travel Writing and Fiji ... Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). ... www.travelintellige nce.com/. ../Fiji/Viti- Levu/ Vatuka/Vatukacevace va-Encounters- with-the- Gods.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Raceandhistory. com - AFRICAN PRESENCE IN FIJI Fijian Tradition "We, the Black people in Fiji, came here a long time ago to our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East Africa. ... www.raceandhistory. com/historicalvi ews/africanfiji. htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The Straight Path: A Story of Healing and Transformation in Fiji ... PART ONE : HEALING IN FIJIAN CULTURE 8 ..... religious customs, oral history and iconography. ..our present homes in Fiji from Tanganyika, in East...exactly ... www.questia. com/.../book/ the-straight- path-a-story- of-healing- and-transformati on-in-fiji- by-richard- katz.jsp - Similar pages
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 09:03 AM
Australasia > Fiji > Viti Levu > Vatuka > Articles
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods Suddenly the track gives way, and we lurch over the edge. For a moment we hover between disaster and salvation, before the goddess of mercy intervenes.
Articles
12,001 Miracles
Those Other Pyramids of Egypt
Tibet's Wild East
Under the Trees in Mozambique
Vatukacevaceva: Encounters with the Gods
Waters of Life: Bali Goes World Heritage
We’re in the rugged Nakauvadra Ranges of Fiji, a place where four-wheel drive has never before ventured. Suddenly the track gives way, and we lurch over the edge. For a moment we hover between disaster and salvation, before the goddess of mercy intervenes. With the greatest of luck we manage to clamber to safety, the 4WD perched at a precarious 45° angle. Then I remember Chief Semesa’s words: "If you don't get my blessing to go into the hills, the ancestral spirits will chase you down again!" Have we angered the gods by bringing a 4WD up into this rarefied atmosphere?
On this occasion, we’re fortunate to be driving a machine that would do anyone proud. A Daihatsu Feroza -- a luxury in most parts of the world, but a near-necessity here in Fiji, where the inland 'roads' are so bad that a lunar landing vehicle might be more appropriate. The leader of this trip, through the mountains north of Vatukacevaceva village is Tom Valentine of Taveuni Island, a proud and amiable character, as befits a member of a race that (unofficially) traces its origins back to ancient Egypt. One of his great grandmothers married an American: hence the Western-sounding name, which in former times was a passport to an education. Tom seems to know Fiji better than most other Fijians put together.
One might think that the gods would choose a more pronounceable name than 'Vatukacevaceva'. For the record, it's pronounced: Va-tu-KAR-they-va-they-va. Vatuka (for short) is not only the cradle of Fijian civilisation, but also a place of awesome beauty, and a cattle-raising centre of renown. The stockmen of the northern coastal towns of Fiji's main island, Viti Levu, have earned for themselves the title "Fiji Cowboys", wearing outfits that make them look as though they've just stepped out of a Wild West movie set. But the real cowboys of Vatukacevaca, inland from the coast, have no need to put on a show. Daily they perform feats that would put the ersatz coastal cowboys to shame, riding at speed through mountainous terrain that would leave the lowlanders quivering at the knees.
Travelling the road to Vatuka we stop to ask an elderly gentlemen on horseback for directions. He doesn’t know this area, but directs us to a nearby village. Here we meet Malo, who comes along for the ride. Above us, rearing their heads like dragons, are the hills of the Nakauvadra Range, so jagged that they seem to have been cut from the earth with a celestial fretsaw. In the plummeting valleys far below, horses and cattle peacefully graze. This Range is the home of the ancestral gods, in particular the serpent god Degei, still revered and worshipped by the locals despite the introduction of Christianity.
Mareivalu, the village headman of Vatuka, has been out on horseback tending the village cattle; nevertheless, he offers to show us around the village. Vatuka is a peaceful community, seemingly permanently awe-struck by the beauty of its natural setting. Later we’re privileged to be introduced to the village chieftain, Ratu Semesa. He produces for our perusal a sacred stone, a perfect sphere the size and weight of a cannonball. It was found, they say, floating in a pool of water, about 90 years ago. I’m sorry, I can’t verify this story, but such is the stature and gravitas of the chieftain that you feel no inclination to doubt his word.
Ratu Semesa tells us about the layout and tracks through the Nakauvadra Range, and then, in a warning that is to prove prophetic, says: "If you don't get my permission to visit the hills, the ancestral spirits will chase you down again!"
Taking Ratu Semesa’s implied permission as a blessing, we decide to try to emulate the horses that negotiate these rough hills with alacrity. This strictly 'low range' territory. We ford a couple of streams and then start climbing, along a ridge so steep that the hills above almost overhang. On either side of the narrow saddle we’re climbing, the valley floor yawns far below.
And then... the track gives way. The next hour is spent digging the earth from under the topmost wheels to lower the vehicle to a level plane. Eventually we succeed, and I have the dubious privilege of reversing down the hill, my heart so firmly in my mouth that I can just about taste the ventricles.
Later, I find out a little more about this awesome mountain. According to legend, the god Degei, whose wrath we’ve aroused, is worshipped as a spirit, an ancestor and an ordinary human being all at once. The story goes that Degei and Lutonasobusobu were the first people to arrive in Fiji. Travelling inland from the coast, they settled at the foot of the Nakauvadra Range, and founded the village of Vatukacevaceva. Degei later took refuge in a cave in the hills.
Later, they say, came the 'Great Flood' (Ualuvu Levu), which dispersed people to all parts of Fiji. Is this the same flood as that of the Old Testament? Several days later I meet a character who throws in another perspective on the story. Albert O'Connor, who now runs a dive and holiday resort on remote Kadavu Island, is one-eighth Irish and seven-eighths much more than just Irish. His great-grandfather was an escaped convict from Australia, who along with several others jumped ship to Galau Island, near Kadavu. Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). From here, parties set out east in search of new territory, calling in at Java and Papua New Guinea on the way. Eventually they reached Fiji, landing at Narewa on the northern coast of Viti Levu - just twenty kilometres from where Vatuka stands today. According to Albert, it's these people who founded the village of Vatukacevaceva.
A similar story is told by a cultural interpreter at Pacific Harbour museum complex, southeast of Suva. Embellishments to the story include the assertion that the Tanganyikan voyagers came originally from Egypt. The Pacific Harbour narrator add further details to the story. Many died during the trip. To replace them, the travellers raided Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, where few were able to resist. The only people smart enough to escape the invading hordes were the Australian aborigines, who knew in advance of the convoy's approach, and watched silently from hiding places in the hills.
However, some historians say that all these 'legends' could be a hoax, stemming from a single hoary story unleashed by missionaries in the 1890s. To these authorities, a more acceptable explanation is that the Fijians came from Indochina, via the Philippines and Indonesia. These people later became the Melanesians and Polynesians.
Whatever the true story may be, the mystery remains. Get to know the Fijian people a little, and this mystique only deepens. Despite the continuing turmoil, coups and uprisings, Fiji comes as a profound eye-opener.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 09:08 AM
The Balson Holdings Family Trust holds a number of historically significant historical collections covering old maps, political memorabilia, old and rare books, and unusual numismatic items. The most famous, the money of the Griqua people, can be seen at this link.
The Balson Holdings Family Trust has a valuable representative collection of Fiji's bank notes and complete collection of Fiji's pre-decimal coins . The history of the bank notes is as fascinating as the country itself. The interest in these collections resulted directly from the development of the innovative niche travel market of Fijian Village Homestays established by Scott Balson after he fell in love with the people and their culture.
But first, a brief history of Fiji: Fijians believe that they originated from the shores of Lake Tanganyika ("fish bag" in Fijian) situated on the western border of Tanganyika (East Africa). Fable records that Lutunasobasoba, a powerful chief and navigator, guided his people in their huge ocean going canoes to their final landing place at Vuda (our source) on Viti Levu's western coast near Ba. Interestingly, one of the largest coastal river systems in Tanganyika (now Tanzania) is the Rufiji - made famous by the German Cruiser, the SMS Konigsberg, and von Lettow Vorbeck, the German General who kept the British Allies on the run throughout World War One. More on this fascinating historical overlap can be viewed at this link. Science tells a different story with the island of Lakeba (in the Lau Island group) located between Viti Levu and Tonga being the first base of Polynesians and Melanesians who travelled south and settled here some 3,000 years ago. Ancient carbon-dated pottery found on Lakeba dates back to about 1500BC. Scientists believe they were the first Fijians.
During the centuries leading up to the arrival of the whiteman and following the arrival of the first Missionaries in 1835 horrific stories of massacres and brother killing brother were common. It was common practice in early Fijian villages to simply strangle men and women who were old and sick who could no longer play a useful role in their society. Cannibalism was rife with the brains of the victims being the delicacy most sought after. The two major powers in the decades leading up to the cession of Fiji to Great Britain were Bau, under Cakobau ("Tui Viti") the King of Fiji and the villages under Rewa. These two peoples fought wars that lasted decades and resulted in some horrific massacres and killings which included burying people alive. The Fijian spoken today by ethnic Fijians originates from the "Bau" dialect.
Over many generations the Fijian people scattered throughout the islands as they tried to escape stronger waring groups. Theses stragglers made their way across the main island of Viti Levu's Nadrau Plateau - then settled in little villages like Namatakula on the coral coast. You can follow their footseps by going on a trek from Nadrau. Just 150 years ago these villages were at war and cannibalism was common. It was at the village of Nabutautau, near Nadrau, that the British Missionary Thomas Baker was killed and eaten by cannibals in 1867. On the coastline between Namatakula and Navutulevu are the remains of a historic stone wall erected by the villagers of Namatakula preventing the neighbouring coastal villagers of Navutulevu from attacking them.
Image right: the remains of the stone wall on the beach at Namatakula
The Fijian's traditionally most prized possession is the golden tabua... more at this link
When the first missionaries arrived in the 1840s a remarkable transformation took place and today the Fijians are peace-loving and God-fearing people with churches dominating their villages. The Fijians stopped their killing and settled down into a hunter-gatherer lifestyle with villages side by side living in peace. It was at about this time the first bank notes appeared in Fiji. In 1874 Fiji became a British colony and the next year a severe measles epidemic killed about one third of the population.
A breakdown of important Chiefs and Rulers of Fiji from the 1700s to date is at this link
A more detailed history of Fiji politics up to date can be seen at this link.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 10:44 AM
The Fijian assertion that they are African in origin is valid; and should be obvious to all that in appearance and culture, they are native to the Black Collective of people.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 10:55 AM
While some Fijians have a memory of African origin that does not mean that they all came from Africa. Many of them came from aboriginal populations of New Guinea, Indonesia and South East Asia as well.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 12:31 PM
Finally, our limited genetic data from Tanzanians belonging to haplogroups M1, N1, and J suggest 2 alternatives that are not mutually exclusive. Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest "back" migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.
posted 07 March, 2008 12:34 PM
I never said that all present day Fijians hail from Africa. However, those who assert that they do have as much a valid claim to African anscestry as any on this forum who are not indigenous Africans but claim descent in part or full.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 01:01 PM
We all know that humans originated in Africa over 100,000 years ago. The issue is how much of an impact RECENT migrations from Africa had in Oceania as Oceania has been populated with blacks for over 60,000 years.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
I note your comments on the geographical origin of the human race, and its subsequent diffusion or migrations to other areas of the earth. Would it be fair to presume that you view the disciplines of evolution and anthropology as credible? Within reason, I judge yes.
Suffice to say, on my part, I prefer and find reliable the explanations of my forefathers, which dates no further back in time than 4500 to 6000 years, as regards our origins. And it certainly did not begin in present day Africa.
Having said this, I am not averse to learning from the harvest of human experience or its teachings (evolution and anthropolgy included).
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 02:16 PM
Many researchers have long noted the presence of African placenames in the Pacific and Asia generally. A certain Mr. Onimisi Baiye has an interesting site where he discusses Yoruba and Japanese placenames.
JAPANESE............. ºE....... ºN....... NIGERIAN 1 Azuma-san (mountain) 140-141 37-38.... Zuma Rock , Niger State
2 Tobi-shima (island) 139-140 39-40.... Tobi: Rivers State male name
3 Akō(town) 134-135 34-35.... Akō: Yoruba, excessive pride
4 Akan(town) 144-145 43-44...... Akandu: Ibo male name
5 Ibara(town) 133-134 34-35....... Ibarapa, Oyo State
6 Minna-jima (island) 124-125 24-25..... Minna, Niger State
18 Watanabe...... Watanabe: Southern Borno State name
19 Kōbe(city) 134.41 135.1....... Achakōbe: Isoko,Delta State name
20 Machida .......Maccido: Fulani, Sokoto State name
Compiled by Onimisi Baiye onimisibaiye@yahoo.co.uk
Onimisi Baiye wrote:
quote:
Far East Asian Languages Are Near African Languages
Written and Compiled by: Onimisi Baiye
If you do an Internet image search, www.google.com on the following Nigerian names: Haruna, Sambo, Pankan, Kwashi, Imoko, Chika, Azuka, Ezuka, Koma, Zoro, Watanabe, Nene, Osato, Osaru, Okada, Edo, Baba, Emiko, Kano, Nana, Aya, Tami, Tai, Sada, Ikimi, Ume, you will more likely see a Japanese link than a Nigerian link.
The writing system of Japanese hides the striking similarities between Japanese and African languages. But on closer examination of the syllables that make up the Kanji character set, the syllables easily describe the Nigerian Languages.
Japanese festivals and dressing are very African in color combination. Also Shinto is about shrines, ancestors, mountain spirits, tree spirits, the so-called heathen religions that was used to justify the enslavement of Blacks.
Japanese were bleached out by invading Mongolians, that is why Southern Japanese people are darker-skinned than their northern counterparts.
Chinese and Korean map to the Calabar languages of South-Southern Nigeria. One has to listen to and see the physical stature someone from that part of Nigeria to to have a feel of of the similarities to Chinese and Koreans. Unfortunately, because of the Eurocentric nature of post-colonial Nigerians, the Calabar people cannot understand why Chinese and Koreans are their bleached-out descendants. Martial Arts is of African origin.
posted 07 March, 2008 02:21 PM
The Fijian origin tale is most interesting given the fact that the speakers of the Niger Congo languages originally lived in Nubia. The presence of these people here may point to an early migration of speakers of these languages also into Tanzania. This would explain the presence of West African place names in the Pacific and West Africa. These names were probably carried to both areas by Niger-Congo speaking people formerly of Nubia.
Baiye is not the first person to note the presence of African placenames in the Pacific. The first person to discuss this hypothesis was W.J. Page.
Williams John Page discussed the Lakato Hypothesis. The Lakato Hypothesis stated simply implies that the Melanesian people of Fiji were carried to the Pacific Islands by Indonesian maritime merchants after they had colonized parts of East and central Africa.
A recent article on Nigerian place names in India was published by Dr. R. Balakrishnan titled "African roots of the Dravidian-speaking Tribes: A case in Onomastics", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 34(1) (2005),pp.153-202. Like Baiye, Dr. Balakrishnan found almost 500 Nigerian placenames, and 46 tribal names in Koraput, India; and 110 ethnonyms of Koyas in Nigeria. This led Dr. Balakrishnan to declare that :"However, the overwhelming evidence available from the toponymic corpuses of Koraput and Nigeria, and ethnonyms, surnames and personal names of Koyas seem more adequate to propose an African origin to the Koyas, the Dravidian speakers" (p.177) It is interesting to note that we find Koya placenames in Nigeria, and Nigerian place names on the East Coast of India (Balakrishnan), Nigerian place names throughout the Pacific (Page) and Nigerian placenames and surnames in Japan (Baiye). This shows a direct spread of Nigerian place names from Africa, across the Indian Ocean into the Pacific. The discovery of common placenames in three different regions can not be accounted by coincidence. Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: We all know that humans originated in Africa over 100,000 years ago. The issue is how much of an impact RECENT migrations from Africa had in Oceania as Oceania has been populated with blacks for over 60,000 years.
There were probably four major migration of the Africans into the Pacific. The first migration was the migration of early homo sapiens sapiens out of Africa around 60,000 BC. The remnants of this migration is probably the highland Melanesians and Australians. These people demonstrate the physical type associated with the early homo sapien sapiens.
The second migration was a migration of pgymy and bushman type people around 20,000-15,000 BC. These people settle many Indian Ocean Islands, India, and East Asia. Remnants of these people are the Munda speakers of India and inhabitants of the Nicobar and Andamen islands. These people made little impact in Oceania which was predominantely still occupied at this time by the Australian type people.
Andaman People
Munda Woman
Tribal People Orissa
Bushman
The third migration was of modern Africans. This migration occurned between 2000-1500 BC. These people spoke languages related to the Niger-Congo and Dravidian groups. They are predominately known as Kushites and spread the use of red-and-black pottery, cattle rearing and millet and yam cultivation to India, Central and East Asia .These Africans also spread a common megalithic culture from Africa to Hawaii. The Fijians were probably part of this group.
The fourth migration took place between 1000-500 BC. This migration resulted from the Hua (contemporary) Chinese defeating the Yin-Shang situated at Anyang, China. These Africans forced out of East Asia and Southeast Asia settle the low land areas of Near Oceania. The lapita artifacts suggest that some of these Africans may have also made their way to Fiji.
The Hua defeat of the Yin-Shang forced Africans and Dravidians out of North China into Central Asia, and onto the Pacific islands. Dravidian speakers (mainly Tamil) were forced into Central Asia, and via Yunnan Province across Southeast Asia and into South India.
Although most Yin people remained in Indonesia. Other Yin people, or Proto-Polynesians began to settle the Pacific Islands during this period.
posted 07 March, 2008 02:52 PM
The original migrants out of Africa had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is an Australian
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
Any physical anthropologists would note these changes. The coastal Melanesians usually show mixed Australian-African features or features commonly found among Africans--not Australians.\
Fijians
Australians
A simple observation of Melanesians and Aborigines make it clear that they resemble Africans moreso than Aborigines--the original settlers of Asia.
The ancestors of the Melanesians and Polynesians probably lived in East Asia. The late appearance of Melanoid people from East Asia on the shore areas of Oceania would explain the differences between the genetic make up of Melanesians living in the highlands and Melanesians living along the shore [1-2].
The skeletal evidence from East Asia [3-7,12] suggests that the TMRCAs of the Polynesians and some of the coastal Melanesians may be mainland East Asia, not Taiwan. The ancestral population for the shoreline Melanesians was probably forced from East Asia by Proto-Polynesians as they were pushed into Southeast Asia by the Han or contemporary Chinese. This would explain the genetic diversity existing among shoreline Melanesians, in comparison to the genetic homogeneity among isolated inland Melanesian, like the Highland New Guineans.
There were two Shang Dynasties, one Melanoid (Qiang-Shang) and the other Proto-Polynesian (Yin-Shang). The first Shang Dynasty was founded by Proto-Melanesians or Melanoids belonging to the Yueh tribe called Qiang [7]. The Qiang lived in Qiangfeng, a country to the west of Yin-Shang, Shensi and Yunnan [7-11,13].
The archaeological evidence also indicates that the Polynesians probably originated in East Asia [4,6-7,12-13]. Consequently, the Polynesian migration probably began in East Asia, not Southeast Asia. Taiwan genetically probably belongs to the early Polynesians who settled Taiwan before they expanded into outer Oceania.
Given the archaeological record of intimate contact between Proto-Polynesians and Proto-Melanoids, neither a “slow boat” or “express train” explains the genetic relationship between the Melanesian and Polynesian populations. This record makes it clear that these populations lived in intimate contact for thousands of years and during this extended period of interactions both groups probably exchanged genes.
References 1. Manfred Kayser, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J. Trent, Mark Stoneking Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians. The American Journal of Human Genetics - 10 January 2008, 82 (1); pp. 194-198.
2. J. S. Fredlaender, F.R. Friedlaender, J.A. Hodgson, M. Stoltz, G. Koki, G. Horvat,S. Zhadanov, T. G. Schurr and D.A. Merriwether, Melanesian mtDNA complexity, PLoS ONE, 2(2) 2007: e248.
3 F. Weidenreich F., Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163.
4. Kwang-chih Chang, Archaeology of ancient China (Yale University Press, 1986) p. 64.
5. G. H. R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp. 301-309).
6. K. C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977): p. 76
7. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, “The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils”, Journal of Tamil Studies, no27 (June 1985), pp. 65-92.
8. K. C. Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1980) pp. 227-230.
9. C. A. Winters, The Dravido-Harappa Colonization of Central Asia, Central Asiatic Journal, (1990) 34 (1-2), pp. 120-144.
10. Y. Kan, The Bronze culture of western Yunnan, Bull. Of the Ancient Orient Museum (Tokyo), 7 (1985), pp. 47-91.
11. S. S. Ling, A study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double, and Deck canoes of ancient China, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. The Institute of Ethnology Academic Sinica. Nankang, Taipei Taiwan, 1970.
12. Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964): pp. 359-375: 375).
13. Winters,Clyde Ahmad, “Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia”, India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986): pp. 225-241.
posted 07 March, 2008 02:58 PM
I can't put my finger on it but I found the above essay just very amusing and very simple-minded. Who is the author?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The original migrants out of Africa had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is an Australian
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
Any physical anthropologists would note these changes. The coastal Melanesians usually show mixed Australian-African features or features commonly found among Africans--not Australians.\
Fijians
Australians
A simple observation of Melanesians and Aborigines make it clear that they resemble Africans moreso than Aborigines--the original settlers of Asia.
The ancestors of the Melanesians and Polynesians probably lived in East Asia. The late appearance of Melanoid people from East Asia on the shore areas of Oceania would explain the differences between the genetic make up of Melanesians living in the highlands and Melanesians living along the shore [1-2].
The skeletal evidence from East Asia [3-7,12] suggests that the TMRCAs of the Polynesians and some of the coastal Melanesians may be mainland East Asia, not Taiwan. The ancestral population for the shoreline Melanesians was probably forced from East Asia by Proto-Polynesians as they were pushed into Southeast Asia by the Han or contemporary Chinese. This would explain the genetic diversity existing among shoreline Melanesians, in comparison to the genetic homogeneity among isolated inland Melanesian, like the Highland New Guineans.
There were two Shang Dynasties, one Melanoid (Qiang-Shang) and the other Proto-Polynesian (Yin-Shang). The first Shang Dynasty was founded by Proto-Melanesians or Melanoids belonging to the Yueh tribe called Qiang [7]. The Qiang lived in Qiangfeng, a country to the west of Yin-Shang, Shensi and Yunnan [7-11,13].
The archaeological evidence also indicates that the Polynesians probably originated in East Asia [4,6-7,12-13]. Consequently, the Polynesian migration probably began in East Asia, not Southeast Asia. Taiwan genetically probably belongs to the early Polynesians who settled Taiwan before they expanded into outer Oceania.
Given the archaeological record of intimate contact between Proto-Polynesians and Proto-Melanoids, neither a “slow boat” or “express train” explains the genetic relationship between the Melanesian and Polynesian populations. This record makes it clear that these populations lived in intimate contact for thousands of years and during this extended period of interactions both groups probably exchanged genes.
References 1. Manfred Kayser, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J. Trent, Mark Stoneking Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians. The American Journal of Human Genetics - 10 January 2008, 82 (1); pp. 194-198.
2. J. S. Fredlaender, F.R. Friedlaender, J.A. Hodgson, M. Stoltz, G. Koki, G. Horvat,S. Zhadanov, T. G. Schurr and D.A. Merriwether, Melanesian mtDNA complexity, PLoS ONE, 2(2) 2007: e248.
3 F. Weidenreich F., Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163.
4. Kwang-chih Chang, Archaeology of ancient China (Yale University Press, 1986) p. 64.
5. G. H. R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp. 301-309).
6. K. C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977): p. 76
7. Winters, Clyde Ahmad, “The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils”, Journal of Tamil Studies, no27 (June 1985), pp. 65-92.
8. K. C. Chang, Shang Civilization, (Yale University Press: New Haven, 1980) pp. 227-230.
9. C. A. Winters, The Dravido-Harappa Colonization of Central Asia, Central Asiatic Journal, (1990) 34 (1-2), pp. 120-144.
10. Y. Kan, The Bronze culture of western Yunnan, Bull. Of the Ancient Orient Museum (Tokyo), 7 (1985), pp. 47-91.
11. S. S. Ling, A study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double, and Deck canoes of ancient China, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean. The Institute of Ethnology Academic Sinica. Nankang, Taipei Taiwan, 1970.
12. Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964): pp. 359-375: 375).
13. Winters,Clyde Ahmad, “Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia”, India Past and Present 3, no2 (1986): pp. 225-241.
.
Actually Melanesians and other Pacific Islanders look like people from New Guinea not Australians. People from New Guinea are black, look like Africans and do not look like Australians. They are also remnants of the original OOA migration.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 04:43 PM
OK, good. Here we have a non-professional oral history.
Do Fijians have professional oral historians? Since Tanganyika did not exist as a nation at the time of the exode, what was the actual name Fijians used for the place in E. Africa where some of them originated?
Egypt before Tanganyika? Incredible!
Is this on record from any early transcriber of Fiji's lore or is it as suspected, just a work of European missionary ultra-diffusionist myth?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Albert relates that his mother has told him the full history of the Fijian people. The story goes that they originally came from Tanganyika (now Tanzania). From here, parties set out east in search of new territory, calling in at Java and Papua New Guinea on the way. Eventually they reached Fiji, landing at Narewa on the northern coast of Viti Levu - just twenty kilometres from where Vatuka stands today. According to Albert, it's these people who founded the village of Vatukacevaceva.
A similar story is told by a cultural interpreter at Pacific Harbour museum complex, southeast of Suva. Embellishments to the story include the assertion that the Tanganyikan voyagers came originally from Egypt. The Pacific Harbour narrator add further details to the story. Many died during the trip. To replace them, the travellers raided Indonesia and Papua New Guinea, where few were able to resist. The only people smart enough to escape the invading hordes were the Australian aborigines, who knew in advance of the convoy's approach, and watched silently from hiding places in the hills.
However, some historians say that all these 'legends' could be a hoax, stemming from a single hoary story unleashed by missionaries in the 1890s. To these authorities, a more acceptable explanation is that the Fijians came from Indochina, via the Philippines and Indonesia. These people later became the Melanesians and Polynesians. Whatever the true story may be, the mystery remains. Get to know the Fijian people a little, and this mystique only deepens. Despite the continuing turmoil, coups and uprisings, Fiji comes as a profound eye-opener.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 04:49 PM
This material bears and is capable of linguistic analysis.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: But first, a brief history of Fiji: Fijians believe that they originated from the shores of Lake Tanganyika ("fish bag" in Fijian) situated on the western border of Tanganyika (East Africa). Fable records that Lutunasobasoba, a powerful chief and navigator, guided his people in their huge ocean going canoes to their final landing place at Vuda (our source) on Viti Levu's western coast near Ba. Interestingly, one of the largest coastal river systems in Tanganyika (now Tanzania) is the Rufiji - made famous by the German Cruiser, the SMS Konigsberg, and von Lettow Vorbeck, the German General who kept the British Allies on the run throughout World War One.Â
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 07 March, 2008 04:53 PM
Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: I never said that all present day Fijians hail from Africa. However, those who assert that they do have as much a valid claim to African anscestry as any on this forum who are not indigenous Africans but claim descent in part or full.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: I await instruction on this thread.
Perhaps this will help. 4 papers on Fijian genetics-- all Polynesian not African.
Hertzberg, M. et al. 1989 “An Asian-specific 9-bp deletion of mitochondrial DNA is frequently found in Polynesians,” Am J Hum Genet 44(4): 504–510
One hundred fifty Polynesians from five different island groups (Samoans, Maoris, Niueans, Cook Islanders, and Tongans) were surveyed for the presence of an Asian-specific length mutation of mitochondrial (mt) DNA by using enzymatic amplification with thermostable Taq DNA polymerase. Ninety-three percent of Polynesians exhibited this 9-bp deletion, including 100% of Samoans, Maoris, and Niueans. The same deletion was also found in 8% of Tolais from New Britain and in 14% of coastal New Guineans. A deletion frequency of 82% in Fijians confirmed their ethnic affinity to Polynesians. In contrast, the deletion was absent in 30 New Guinea highlanders and 31 Australian aborigines, the only exception being an aborigine who also had the Southeast Asian triplicated zeta-globin gene rearrangement in his nuclear DNA. These data support the theories claiming that an independent group of pre-Polynesian ancestors who colonized into the Pacific were ultimately derived from east Asia.
Trent, R. J., et al. 1988 Globin genes are useful markers to identify genetic similarities between Fijians and Pacific Islanders from Polynesia and Melanesia. Am J Hum Genet. 1988 April; 42(4): 601–607.
DNA mapping studies in Fijians have enabled the identification of rearrangements and RFLPs involving the alpha-, zeta-, and gamma-globin genes. Comparisons of these data with corresponding gene markers in Polynesians and Melanesians of Papua New Guinea show considerable overlap between the three population groups. The utility of globin genes as population markers is further confirmed.
Lum, J. K. and R, L. Cann 1998 “mtDNA and Language Support a Common Origin of Micronesians and Polynesians in Island Southeast Asia,” Am. J. Physical Anthropology 105:109–119 (1998)
The ancestral mtDNA region V consists of two copies of a 9-bp repeat (Horai et al., 1993), which is considered the ‘‘standard length’’ (XX). Possible mutational mechanisms producing the four non-standard length polymorphisms are depicted in Figure 3. The most common short-length polymorphism (X.I) results from the deletion of one 9-bp repeat as described by Wrischnik et al. (1987). X.I is found in all the populations except the Moken, Australian Aborigines, and Papuan-speaking Melanesians. Observed frequencies of X.I are low to moderate in Mainland Asia (0.12 to 0.32), moderate in Island Southeast Asia (0.27 to 0.40), high to near fixation in Micronesia (0.56 to 0.94) and near fixation in Polynesia (0.86 to 1.0). . . .
Marianas Islands in Northwestern Micronesia, which has a frequency of 0.13. There is a west to east cline in X.I frequencies in the Melanesian populations sampled. X.I is absent in Papua New Guinea, low in Vanuatu (0.13), and high in Fiji (0.64). All of the individuals with X.I share a phylogenetically distinct group of control region sequences (Cann and Lum, 1996) which correspond to Lineage Group I (Lum et al., 1995). . . .
Table 1 shows a qualitative association between language and genetics; populations that speak Oceanic Austronesian languages tend to have high frequencies of X.I. The exception to this trend is Vanuatu. As noted earlier, there is a west to east frequency cline in X.I across Melanesia. Of the two Austronesian-speaking Melanesian populations, Vanuatu in the west is closer to Papuan-speaking populations and has a relatively low frequency of X.I. Fiji, in contrast, is at the eastern edge of Melanesia and has a high X.I frequency, comparable to other Oceanic Austronesian-speaking populations in Micronesia (Table 1). Fijians sampled in this study are from the Yasawa Island Group in the extreme west of Fiji. In this population we observe an X.I frequency of 0.64 while Hertzberg et al. (1989) reported a frequency of 0.82 from Fiji. The difference in X.I frequencies may reflect a west to east gradient within Fiji analogous to that seen across Melanesia. We suspect that all Oceanic speaking populations initially had high frequencies of X.I and interpret the low X.I frequency of Vanuatu as evidence of gene flow from Papuan-speaking Melanesia. Studies of both a-globin haplotypes (Roberts-Thomson et al., 1996) and HLA allele frequencies (Serjeantson, 1985) have grouped Fijians and other Austronesian speaking Melanesians with Papuan-speaking Melanesians to the exclusion of other Austronesian speakers. This suggests extensive gene flow east across Melanesia. Taken with the results from our mtDNA analysis, this indicates that gene flow from Papuan speaking populations into Austronesian speaking populations within Melanesia has been sex biased; gene flow suggested by studies of autosomal loci extends farther east than that observed in mitochondrial studies.
Kayser, M. et al. 2006 “Melanesian and Asian origins of Polynesians: mtDNA and Y-chromosome gradients across the Pacific,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 23(11):2234–2244.
The human settlement of the Pacific Islands represents one of the most recent major migration events of mankind. Polynesians originated in Asia according to linguistic evidence or in Melanesia according to archaeological evidence. To shed light on the genetic origins of Polynesians we investigated over 400 Polynesians from eight island groups, in comparison with over 900 individuals from potential parental populations of Melanesia, Southeast and East Asia, and Australia, by means of Y-chromosome (NRY) and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) markers. Overall, we classified 94.1% of Polynesian Y-chromosomes and 99.8% of Polynesian mtDNAs as of either Melanesian (NRY-DNA: 65.8%, mtDNA: 6%) or Asian (NRY-DNA: 28.3%, mtDNA: 93.8%) origin, suggesting a dual genetic origin of Polynesians in agreement with the “Slow Boat” hypothesis. Our data suggest a pronounced admixture bias in Polynesians towards more Melanesian men than women, perhaps as a result of matrilocal residence in the ancestral Polynesian society. Although dating methods are consistent with somewhat similar entries of NRY/mtDNA haplogroups into Polynesia, haplotype sharing suggests an earlier appearance of Melanesian haplogroups than those from Asia. Surprisingly, we identified gradients in the frequency distribution of some NRY/mtDNA haplogroups across Polynesia and a gradual west to east decrease of overall NRY/mtDNA diversity, not only providing evidence for a west-to-east direction of Polynesian settlements but also suggesting that Pacific voyaging was regular rather than haphazard. We also demonstrate that Fiji played a pivotal role in the history of Polynesia: humans probably first migrated to Fiji, and subsequent settlement of Polynesia probably came from Fiji.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I can't put my finger on it but I found the above essay just very amusing and very simple-minded.
Truth. This thread is a redundant joke whose contentions have been refuted before.
Quetzalcoatl's links to the 4 genetic studies are accurate. Winters claims are thus dismissed.
Why do you always make it appear that this is my claim. This is just a reporting of the oral tradition of the Fiji people. If you desire to deny their claim fine with me. But please don't make it appear as if this is something I made up.
Instead of denying the history of these people you should try to discover what evidence may support this claim.
This is what i have tried to do. First, the Fijians claim they came from Africa. We know a megalithic culture expanded from Africa into the Indian/Pacific Ocean areas after 2000 BC. Secondly, African place names are found in the Pacific and correspondences between lexical items.
Common Terms:
English Manding Melanesian Polynesian
arrow bye,bya fana,pane fana,pana
Father baba babi papa
Man tye ta taga-ta
head ku tequ-qa tuku-noa
pot daga taga taga
vase bara pora,bora bora-bora
fish yege ige, ika ika
ox, cattle konga,gunga kede kuda
The ancient Austronesians cultivated rice, millet, yams and sugarcane. (Bellwood 1990, p.92)
It would appear that the Polynesians learned agriculture from the Manding as illustrated below:
Polynesian English Manding
*talun fallow, land daa
*tanem to plant, sow daa
*suluq torch, jet of flame suu
*kuDen cooking pot,bowl ku
This evidence provides linguistic and anthropological support for the Fiji tradition. It is wrong that you guys deny a people history just because your European masters to do not present evidence in support of a native tradition.
If you keep waiting for Europeans to verify our history you will have a long wait.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
There are other genetic markers which point to a relationship between the Fijians and Africans. For example, haplogroup V appears in New Guinea, while haplogroup IV has been found only in New Guinea, Near Oceania and Northwestern most Micronesia according to Merriwether et al., Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific, p.159, in SS Papilia, R. Deka & R. Chakraborty (Ed.), Genomic Diversity.In Cordaux et al.,Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India, Eur. J Hum Genet (2003)11(2):253-264, in figure 2 notes that Clusters X1 and X are found in Africa and the Pacific.
Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876.
Merriwether et al. Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast, Am. J Hum Genet (1994) noted that Africans and Asians share the T-->C transition at nt position 16189 and the D-loop sequence of nts 15975 to 00048.
posted 08 March, 2008 09:48 AM
^ Fijian no more generally claim to come from Africa than Nigerians generally claim to come from Arabia, or Berber claim to come from Yemen, or Dravidians claim to come from Africa.
If a given peoples oral myths are divisible by 100%, and 95% of them make claims having nothing to do with Africa, while 5% make some mention of Africa, Winters will disingenuously claim "said people claim to come from africa".
Adding to this dishonesty he will imply that their indigenous histories are being ignored by anyone who does not take these claims at face value.
Winters so exploits lack of sound reason in his target audience.
In logic: it's Winters who ignored 95% of the oral histories of these people - in order to assert the 5% that serves *his* political purposes.
Don't get it?
Well here's and article on Melanesian origins, and origin *myths.*
The word Africa does not even appear in either context:
Polynesian peoples are believed to have settled the Fijian islands some 3,500 years ago, with Melanesians following around a thousand years later. Most authorities agree that they originated in Southeast Asia and came via Indonesia. Archeological evidence shows signs of settlement on Moturiki Island from 600 BC and possibly as far back as 900 BC.
The Fiji Times reported on 3 July 2005 that recent research by the Fiji Museum and the University of the South Pacific (USP) has found that skeletons excavated at Natadola in Sigatoka, at least 3000 years old, belonged to the first settlers of Fiji, with their origins in South China or Taiwan. The skeletons are to be sent to Japan for assembling and further research. Obsidian, a rare volcanic glass found only in Papua New Guinea had been discovered there, according to Patrick Nunn, USP Professor of Ocean Science and Geography, who theorized that the people could originally have left southern China or Taiwan some 7000 years ago, settling in Papua New Guinea before drifting on to Fiji and other countries. Lapita pottery found on the surface of the graves was almost 2500 years old, he said. Fiji Museum archaeologist Sepeti Matararaba said that the area beside the sea must have been occupied, because a great deal of pottery, hunting tools, and ancient shell jewellery had been discovered. More than 20 pits had been dug following the discovery of lapita in the area.
On 15 July 2005, it was reported that the same teams had uncovered 16 skeletons at Bourewa, near Natadola. The skeletons were found in a layer of undisturbed soil containing pottery from around 550 BC. Professor Nunn said there was now abundant evidence that Bourewa had been the first human settlement in the Fiji archipelago, occupied from around 1200 BC onwards. "Lapita people were the first people to come to Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Tonga and Samoa. These people left evidence of their existence by mainly their elaborately decorated and finely fashioned pottery," Nunn said. He said the evidence pointed to Papua New Guinea or the Solomon Islands as the place from where the earliest Fijians came, as the pottery fragments were typical of the early Lapita period in Papua New Guinea and the Solomons, but not readily found on Lapita Pottery in Fiji.
Nunn announced on 9 November 2005 that a black obsidian rock discovered near Natadola in southwest Viti Levu had originated in the Kutau-Bao obsidian mine on Talasea Peninsula on the island of New Britain, in Papua New Guinea, some 4500 kilometers away. Although carried throughout the Western Pacific by the Lapita people, it is not often found in Fiji. The obsidian, which showed signs of being "worked," probably arrived soon after the initial Lapita settlement in Bourewa circa 1150BC, Nunn said. He theorized that it was kept by the Lapita settlers as a talisman, a reminder of where they had come from.
Fiji Television reported on 20 March 2006 that an ancient Fijian village, believed to have been occupied by chiefs sometime between 1250 and 1560, had been discovered at Kuku, in Nausori. Its heavily fortified battle fort contained unique features not seen elsewhere in Fiji. Archeologist Sepeti Matararaba of the Fiji Museum expressed astonishment at some of the discoveries at the site, which included an iron axe used by white traders in exchange for Fijian artefacts. Local villages were reported to be rebuilding the site with a view to opening it up to tourists in July 2006.
According to oral tradition, the indigenous Fijians of today are descendants of the chief Lutunasobasoba and those who arrived with him on the Kaunitoni canoe. Landing at what is now Vuda, the settlers moved inland to the Nakauvadra mountains. Though this oral tradition has not been independently substantiated, the Fijian government officially promotes it, and many tribes today claim to be descended from the children of Lutunasobasoba. from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_Fiji"
^ and so, the thread exists for comedy as Winters asks - "who wants to get played?"
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted 08 March, 2008 09:51 AM
Clyde Winters is right.
There is something disturbing about certain members on this forum who question, reject and ridicule the oral chronicles of indigenous peoples in explaining their origin.
To add insult to injury, these guardians, gatekeepers and acolytes of Eurocentric academia then demand ' verifiable evidence' of and from indigenous peoples about their assertions, which they reserve the 'right' to label authentic or not.
How anybody could doubt or be 'objective' about the assertion of Fijians that originally they hail from modern day Africa escapes me??
All the Fijians I've met and discoursed with don't have any issues with their African origin.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Africans and Fijians share the Y-Chromosome K-M9. The K haplogroup is found in Africa and Oceania. The common Fijian Y-chromosome is M-M4; it exist as derived subgroup M-P34 of Melanesians. Both of these genes are found in among Africans see: Figure 2, in Wood et al., Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome, Eur J Hum Genet (2005),13:867-876. .
K-M9 is not an African haplotype, see
Kayser, M. et al. 2003 “Reduced Y-Chromosome, but Not Mitochondrial DNA, Diversity in Human Populations from West New Guinea,” J. Hum. Genet. 72:281–302.
p. 289
quote: Haplogroup K-M9 most likely represents the common ancestor of the majority of non-African Y chromosomes, and many Y-SNP markers are known on the M9G background (Underhill et al. 1997, 2000, 2001b). Haplogroups carrying the M9G mutation (and additional markers that define sublineages of M9G) are widespread in Asia and account for 78.4% of all Y chromosomes in this study (table 3; fig. 2). For WNG, the proportion of Y chromosomes carrying only M9G and no derived markers (haplogroup K-M9) is small (_6% of the entire sample), and usually they were found in only single individuals from some populations. An exception is the Korowai/Kombai population, in which haplogroup KM9 occurs in _54% of the samples (table 3 and 4; figs. 1 and 3).
A search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper,
Wood, E.T. et al. 2005 “Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes,” [B}European Journal of Human Genetics [/B]13 (7)867–876
To investigate associations between genetic, linguistic, and geographic variation in Africa, we type 50 Y chromosome SNPs in 1122 individuals from 40 populations representing African geographic and linguistic diversity. We compare these patterns of variation with those that emerge from a similar analysis of published mtDNA HVS1 sequences from 1918 individuals from 39 African populations. For the Y chromosome, Mantel tests reveal a strong partial correlation between genetic and linguistic distances (r1/40.33, P1/40.001) and no correlation between genetic and geographic distances (r1/4 0.08, P40.10). In contrast, mtDNA variation is weakly correlated with both language (r1/40.16, P1/40.046) and geography (r1/40.17, P1/40.035). AMOVA indicates that the amount of paternal among-group variation is much higher when populations are grouped by linguistics (UCT1/40.21) than by geography (UCT1/40.06). Levels of maternal genetic among-group variation are low for both linguistics and geography (UCT1/40.03 and 0.04, respectively). When Bantu speakers are removed from these analyses, the correlation with linguistic variation disappears for the Y chromosome and strengthens for mtDNA. These data suggest that patterns of differentiation and gene flow in Africa have differed for men and women in the recent evolutionary past. We infer that sex-biased rates of admixture and/or language borrowing between expanding Bantu farmers and local hunter-gatherers played an important role in influencing patterns of genetic variation during the spread of African agriculture in the last 4000 years.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: Clyde Winters is right.
There is something disturbing about certain members on this forum who question, reject and ridicule the oral chronicles of indigenous peoples in explaining their origin.
No he is wrong.
No one here has ridiculed anyone's oral history.
Winters dropped this bait precisely to make you respond defensively, so he can then exploit your emtotions instead of addressing the facts.
quote: search of the Woods paper finds that the words Fiji, M-M4, M-P34, and Melanesia do not occur in the paper.
lol. Nothing ever changes.
There is no understanding Dr. Winters without grasping his cynicism.
You're not *supposed* to check up on him. You're just supposed to defend his bizarre claims out of celebrity worship..... don't you know that? Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Private labelings of clusters of indeterminate origin notwithstanding, map shows the opposite of what Winters contends.
14 clusters are identified.
Application of logical comparison:
How many are shared between Africans and New Guinea but not found in Eurasians.... (?)
ZERO
How many are shared between Africans and Eurasians, but *not* found in New Guinea....(?)
EIGHT
How many are shared between Eurasian and New Guinea but not found in Africa..... (?)
TWO
This graph actually shows that PNG and African populations are the LEAST related.
This graph actually shows why it is *impossible* for PNG to be descendant from recent Africans.
But then, we are not supposed to *apply critical thinking* about how ridiculous are Witners claims.
Being useful idiots we are just supposed to look at pretty pictures and "agree" with whatever he says about them. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
However, I stand by my posit that certain members on this forum are dismissive about the oral histories of the indigenous people of a land unless it is validated by eurocentric scholarship. Please note that my position on this matter is not influenced by Clyde Winters' recent comments.
As concerns Fijians, I am only sharing with the forum what they revealed to me over 21 years ago. By then, I was almost 30 years old; and at the time rather pharasaical about facts and objectivity but indifferent to the reality that even those perceived as 'dull and ignorant' must also have their say.
20+ years on, I have developed an appreciation for the opinions of the 'dull and ignorant' because in the final analysis, it is their story. Let them have their say. What's emotion got to do with anything?
Respect
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted 08 March, 2008 05:55 PM
And how many peoples have myths about origins somewhere else? If a northern European group has legends about originating in a land across the ocean how many would agree that they are African?
As for Rasol, he explained everything that is needed. This is nothing more than a baited thread by Winters to perpetuate his African origin for anyone in the world who is black. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted 08 March, 2008 07:00 PM
Blacks/Africans have never determined membership or affiliation to the collective based on skin tone alone. There is the matter of appearance, form, lineage and blood ties to the land. Therefore, it would be ludicruous for me to support or have sympathy for any position which argues that any people who are dark or black skinned in tone have African origins.
I have met and being acquainted with black skinned South Indians darker than myself but have never felt any affinity with them as a people of African origin. They were never black to me, and are not to Africans. They are Indian not Black/African.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
However, I stand by my posit that certain members on this forum are dismissive about the oral histories
Fair enough.
Likewise, I stand by my posit that Winters is only interested in oral history that he can misuse to further his own agenda - and himself completely ignores said histories when they contradict his agenda - as they usually do.
As such - his use and abuse of oral history is cynical and biased.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Therefore, it would be ludicruous for me to support or have sympathy for any position which argues that any people who are dark or black skinned in tone have African origins.
I have met and being acquainted with black skinned South Indians darker than myself but have never felt any affinity with them as a people of African origin. They were never black to me, and are not to Africans. They are Indian not Black/African.
Ok. But note, these are the very people that Winters claims ARE AFRICAN.
This is his primary point.
If you feel the way you do, then you definitely do not agree with Winters, as you suppose.
Clyde Winters thinks that Meroitic text is and Indo-European script that comes from India and not Africa.
He formed a personal theory of langauge to support this view.
This is why he *must* call Indians - Africans.
His major base of support comes from India-centrists.
He works hard to keep neophyte African scholars confused about what he is actually saying and what it implies.
You will discover all this in due time. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted 08 March, 2008 08:15 PM
Black and African are not synonymous terms hence its oxymoronic to state "black skinned South Indians" are not "Black."
Black? Yes they are. African? No they are not.
Relegating black to African is but a rehashing of the true negro myth.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 08 March, 2008 08:41 PM
Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Agreed, and unless the migrants were all females we expect confirmation from NRY haplogroups too.
posted 08 March, 2008 09:05 PM
In the West Africa where Jo hails from they probably have a red vs black dichotomy even among born no foreign extraction Africans. In Senegal for instance, in privacy among themselves, a Wolof and even some Peuhl will laugh if a Tekrour calls himself black (Peuhl and Tekrour are both halPulaaren). Some West Africans are very jealous over whom they'll admit into the black category.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ cosign. Patience is in order with the new poster.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9*
K-M9* is also and upper paleolithic lineage, which much like maternal M* and N* is disputed for it's African or Eurasian origin.
Lineage K-M9* has low frequencies in Europe and Africa, is the second most frequent in Mongolia (30%), and was not observed in Native Americans - Y-Chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demographic Histories in the Americas Maria-Catira Bortolini,1,2 Francisco
Whether K-M9* is African lineage carried forth in the original outmigration 50 kya~ or and M-168 derived Eurasian lineage reflecting low frequeny non African ancestry in Africans - it cannot in either case reflect recent African ancestry in Melanesia.
For Y chromosome evidence of this - you must find E, A or B haplotypes, because these are the haplotypes that distinguish modern Africans.
This is how we can *know* that said populations do - or in the absense of the noted haplotypes - do *not* stem from recent African migrations.
Although Winters is cynical about many things - I concede its possible that he may simply not understand this particular.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
And why not, this is a y-chromosome haplogroup and even you have to admit that the haplogroup exist in Africa. Existence of the lineage in both Africa and Fiji supports the relationship maintained by the Fijians themselves.
quote:Whether K-M9* is African lineage carried forth in the original outmigration 50 kya~ or and M-168 derived Eurasian lineage reflecting low frequeny non African ancestry in Africans - it cannot in either case reflect recent African ancestry in Melanesia.
For Y chromosome evidence of this - you must find E, A or B haplotypes, because these are the haplotypes that distinguish modern Africans.
posted 09 March, 2008 11:21 AM
An 0.8% Afrisan and 0.1% Niger-Congo frequency for K-M9* is hardly supportive of a parental African child Fijian hypothesis.
Please research and note the frequencies of K-M9* among the world's populations then rank them.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Per Wood 2005 fig 2 (clickable link) Afrisan and Niger-Congo speakers have a scant 0.8% and 0.1% frequency of paragroup K-M9* while haplogroup M-M4 was not found in Africa at all.
This is not NRY confirmation for a Fiji-Africa match.
And why not, this is a y-chromosome haplogroup and even you have to admit that the haplogroup exist in Africa. Existence of the lineage in both Africa and Fiji supports the relationship maintained by the Fijians themselves.
.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 12 March, 2008 11:05 AM
I've routinely read members on this forum say only "laymen" rely on wikipedia, yet at the same time consciously quoting sources from wikipedia when convenient to support a particular claim. Interesting double standard. So which is it, wiki is reliable or it isn't?
It's rather disingenuous and insulting for those to disregard the oral histories of Fijians without producing a shred of independent data of their own to refute specific claims. Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web as being 'accurate.' The real work actually involves traveling to the source to investigate these specific claims, interviewing Fijians, learning their language, learning their customs, composing and analyzing independent genetic material, etc. None of this is going on here, just cyber politics.
Science isn't written in stone. Things are subject to change. Perhaps the Fijians do have a direct genetic relationships with continental Africans. And maybe they don't. But how would anyone know what's accurate from inaccurate if they don't do their own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources?
Posts: 148 | From: Sirius | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted 12 March, 2008 03:42 PM
Don't have much time but this had to be addressed.
JMT wrote:
------------------------ Any armchair scholar can sit back on a computer and present schematics from other peoples work and claim Fijian oral history is faulty while surreptitiously presenting erroneous genetic data from the web as being 'accurate.' -------------------------
And we all know who they are.
------------------------- But how would anyone know what's accurate from inaccurate if they don't do their own first hand research while relying only on others peoples sources? -------------------------
Egyptsearch hero/idol worshippers (ie. forum lackeys) take note and learn from the above.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by JMT: I've routinely read members on this forum say only "laymen" rely on wikipedia, yet at the same time consciously quoting sources from wikipedia when convenient to support a particular claim. Interesting double standard. So which is it, wiki is reliable or it isn't?
The question is naive.
Wikipedia is only the name of a website.
it's not the name of and author, or a publisher or singular source.
Wikipedia has much information sourced from the brilliant minds of SOY Keita, and Chiekh Anta Diop, as well as Christopher Ehret.
Wikipedia has absolutely idiotic garbage posted from no name sources.
Wikipedia is just a word, not a credibility level.
One reason why so much really shabby thinking is found in many of these threads is that many really don't know how to think.
They don't know how to take information or sources in context or how to objectively and critically assess them.
Egyptsearch has seen better days when there were many highly intelligent posters and discussions one could learn from.
Now, there are many naive/laymen posters who keep discussion mired down at a 'baby talk' level.
Perhaps thats the future of this site.
It's boring having to explain the obvious.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but to me - these threads, are just dumb.
It means, frankly, that it may be time for me to move on.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
The day you leave this forum, Is the day that egyptsearch will take a turn for the worse. You can't let These posters chase you from posting. You have taught a lot of people valuable information. I understand where you are coming from, when posters make threads like this claiming any and everyone as Black, you are usually the one who is forced to correct them. Since these posters are really only about there ideology the ignore the truth that rips to shreds there views.
Talking to people like this can be tireing and annoying, but you do it for a reason. You try to make sure new posters are aware of the *REAL* truth and to not take these people serious. Trust me when I say that you have educated many posters and even though it may seem like a thankless job, we all respect what you do. Stay up Rasol.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
I remember when I first read one of your posts at the old forum (Nilevalley), I was so afraid to say something because I felt so uneducated, particularly in genetics and the next thing I did was to order a book by Diop. You are the reason who opened to my heritage and helped a great deal which I am embarrassed to say here. And you were the corestone who led me to understand the "Western" Civilization, and the world we are living in.
I understand why new posters tend to attack you, because you are trophy for them, besides what would Dr. Clyde Winthers do if you leave us?
I don't think Dr. Clyde will be here testing his theories and subject somthing to other people who barely know nothing about Ancient Egypt history first, if you were not here.
You could do a great things if you start your own website and educate people like me.
A good start would be here http://wordpress.com/ (you can have your own domain also, eg. www.rasol.com. It costs 15 $ a year, otherwise it is free. There are a lot professional people who have their own website, and the only reason is of couse to propagate their ideas and ideologies)
Please don't waste this opportunity, for the sake of all of us.
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic