There are four factors which would account for the red color of Rameses' hair, none of which would exclude the other factors.

A) The obvious effects of x-radiation upon the mummy

B) The Embalm-ment Process

Sir Gaston Maspero who unwrapped the mummy of Rameses II, one of the first to see the face of the Pharaoh writes:

quote:

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"on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, they have been dyed a light yellow by the spices used in the embalm-ment...the moustache and beard are thin...The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows...the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black...the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king."

Valley of the Kings by John Romer, Castle Books, p184

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(A significant observation was also made by Maspero to the effect that the mummy had a 'low brow' or was prognathous, which in ethnological terms indicates a Negroid individual. )

C) The practice of dying gray hair

The Ancient Egyptians used a variety of methods to eliminate Gray hair. Henna dyed the natural black hair an auburn color, while turning the unpigmented gray hairs a bright orange. Hair would sometimes be dyed after death. Rameses II is an example. Examine the photo of the Afar elder... http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/people.html

D) A natural red head

In her book "Ramesess - Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh" (sic!), Joyce Tyldesley references the French examination of the pharaoh and their conclusion that Rameses II had naturally red hair. This is predicated upon one true factor that would serve to give credence to the scientific evaluation of the mummy's hair:

-- The Seti/Ramessid dynasty was originated by royals from the North, specifically the Delta region. Blacks, especially during this epoch, were heavily mixed with foreign whites and/or Asiatics, and tended to be lighter than those of the valley. So the existence of Blacks with red hair was probably a common occurrence, about as much as it is amongst present day African Americans, for example.
It's debatable, however, how socially acceptable this would be to the population, for as Diop points out that when a Kemetian encountered someone with white skin and red hair, they would kill that person. Was it then socially acceptable to be Black with red hair?

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 11 September 2004).]
 

* no, not the droid from star wars.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 11 September 2004).]
 

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Originally posted by rasol:
Actually I was referring to pictures in paintings, not of the mummy.

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Paintings, as in by the Egyptians themselves, or by other artists?

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 11 September 2004).]
 

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Originally posted by supercar:
Paintings, as in by the Egyptians themselves, or by other artists?

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The AE of course. I just want to see how his hair was depicted.

 

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Originally posted by rasol:
The AE of course. I just want to see how his hair was depicted.

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Well then, you should be able to finding something on that over the internet.

Here are some:

The second one shows Ramses II with black hair, but it could also be a wig. This Egyptian Papyrus painting depicts Offering to Ramses II and Isis.

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 12 September 2004).]
 

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Originally posted by supercar:
Well then, you should be able to finding something on that over the internet.

Here are some:

The second one shows Ramses II with black hair, but it could also be a wig. This Egyptian Papyrus painting depicts Offering to Ramses II and Isis.

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Thanks. Since it is commonly stated that Rameses II had red hair, and even explained as a particular ethnic trait of the Rameses', per se, and one of which they were supposedly 'proud', I am interested in whether there is any actual basis for it.

Or perhaps, like 'black soil' = kmt it is another European legend, repeated until it is accepted as fact, and then embellished when and where necessary.
 

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
Redhaired people are rare but not absent in north Africa. I've seen redhaired Egyptians and a few berbers with redhair...

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Originally posted by Osiris II:
It's awfully difficut to tell Rameses II hair color from AE portraits. As ausar says, most times he was shown wearing a crown that covered most of his hair, and that that did show was more than likely a wig.Henna, while used to color hair quite frequently, will turn gray hair orange, but gives black or dark brown hair an auburn sheen. The most logical explination for Rameses II blondish-red hair on his mummy is that, being an old man, he probably had white or light gray hair. The ungents and resins used on his mummy would stain the hair to the light colors described. His original color as a younger man? Almost impossible to say, but a dark red is not impossible by any means.

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Rameses II's ancestors came from non-royal ancestry from a mercenary family that was promoted by Horemheb. We know that most of the mercenaries in Egyptian armies tended to be either Libyans,Caanites,and Nubians. Around this time quite a few Libyans migrated into the Delta often intermarrying with local Egyptian women and producing offspring. Makes sense to me also that Rameses II Caanite heritage since one of his own daughters is named Bint Anath[Bint means daughter in Arabic],so it appears that his family origin also included Caanite elements.

Let me point out something I have before is that many races of people often have blondism in early youth. This includes the aboriginals,Melanesians,and even modern Nubians. Thus you can't really use hair color as an ethnic marker in the case of Egyptians. Albinism might be another factor.

Wigs in ancient Egypt were made of various colors including yellow,blue,and even red. Most Egyptian scenes with the exception of the Fowling in the marshes scene in the Tomb of Nebamun and Hesi-Re show wigs.

Unfortunatley,I looked all over for the sculpture of Rameses II as a youth and I cannot find it. I believe the sculpture shows him next to Heru bearing the sidelock of youth.

The only way we can know the original hair color or texture of a mummy is through electron analysis. I have read a few reports that Rameses II hair was a natural reddish color from these studies but I am also somewhat skeptical of the labratories they were tested in.

Through time,weather,burial conditions,and chemicals used in mummification process turns hair color unnatural colors. Hair also loses elasticity from mummification.

The pharoah had more than one name such as the nomen[usually his home residenence],the sem-tawy name[king of Upper and Lower Egypt],and Heru name[the pharoah being a manifestation of Heru]

Rameses II heru name was Usermaatresetepenre.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 12 September 2004).]
 

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Originally posted by ausar:
[B]
Rameses II heru name was Usermaatresetepenre.
B]

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Damn. I'll just call him Rameses thank you.

I'm sure most have seen this, but for those who haven't: http://highculture.8m.com/r2.htm
 

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Originally posted by rasol:
Damn. I'll just call him Rameses thank you.

I'm sure most have seen this, but for those who haven't: http://highculture.8m.com/r2.htm

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Once again, it's amazing what facial reconstruction can do, using forensics. This would probably be a shocking development for people who have a certain romanticized image of Ramses II, from the reddish or as some say, "blondish" color hair of the mummy!

 

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Originally posted by supercar:
Once again, it's amazing what facial reconstruction can do, using forensics. This would probably be a shocking development for people who have a certain romanticized image of Ramses II, from the reddish or as some say, "blondish" color hair of the mummy!

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The picture also concurs with Wally's earlier comment about Maspero's observation: "the mummy was prognathous". (everted, rather than inverted mouth)
 

http://www.africawithin.com/malcolmx/malcolmcolor.jpg

Malcolm...

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 12 September 2004).]
 

Anyway, I would never guess the face below to belong to a redhead...

however this time, i agree with him.

i found this definitive picture of ramesis on the stormfront white power website:

You cannot deny high powered proof like this!!!!
 

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Supercar...when i want to just crack up laughing I look at some of these extreme posts. your picture of Ramses II is simply comical. I'm waitinh for the picture of Cleopatra that looks like Aretha Franklin.

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Gee thanks! I would really love to take credit for painting those images, but that would be dishonest, you know. If you have issues with those papyrus paintings, I strongly recommend you confront the Ancient Egyptian artists who painted them! You do have an option of meeting them face to face to give them your piece of mind, or you can simply send them a fan mail expressing your critique of their work!
Only one problem though...they are DEAD! So you might want to check with your nearest local "communicator with the Dead".

Horemheb, I have come to understand that you are not merely delusional, but in real need of psychiatric help!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 14 September 2004).]
 

Anath is a Syrian goddess. In Ougaritic myth she is a virgin warrior goddess rather like Athena. As a popular goddess I'm sure Anath would have been a popular name amongst Ougaritic-Canaanite girls.

regards,
sneuropa

[This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 14 September 2004).]
 

Which is why I suggested that Rameses II might have some Caanite ancestry because of the name of his daughter was very Semetic. Not rare since time memorial we have trickles of Syrian,Phonecian,Caanite,and Hykos in Egypt either by captives in war or by coming to Egypt voluntarily. He obviously named his daughter a very Semetic name like Binat Anath. However,it appears he also embrace matriarchical Kemetian culture being that his mother,Tuya, was his head advisor. She was queen mother and guardian which was alien in Semetic culture.

Although Rameses had a Kemetian mother and father I think there could have been enough foreign blood to give him red hair. Even if
there wasn't red hair in the Kemetian race(s) already. This is not implying that the Ancient Egyptians were "white" (what ever that means anyway). Its obvious that most Kemetians were of dark skin and hair- but there must have been some variety, especially amongst families which contained foreign members.

The other question is whether the Canaanites were red haired? I suppose the above implies again but that the Syrians as a whole were paler than Kemetians and had even more foreign influences from Europe and Iran etc.

regards,
sneuropa
 

He always stikes me as the greatest egomaniac in Kemetic history. Statues, more statues of me! And bigger!!!!!

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 September 2004).]
 

What also occured was the Hykos invasion which some scholars believe was a mixture of Hurrian[Indo-European] and Semetic[Caanite] ancestry. Most likely the Hykos according to the Brooklyn papyrus has an effect on the population here.

You are right that the royals would sometimes get concubines from foregin lands as gifts,and often bear children. However,I don't believe that these children inherited the throne except under special circumstances. The title ''royal ornament of the king'' was an honor bestowed on various harem women in Egypt,and to have their children become pharoah was also an honor. Not to mention that many conspiracies from the time of Pepi p6th Dyansty] down to Rameses III[19th dyansty there were various attempts to assassinate the pharoah to take power.

Indo-European ancestry in the modern area of Syria is plausible because of the Mitanni being right there in Egypt.

If you read Manetho and Josephus you will see both equate the Hykos with the exodous Hebrews. Manetho calls the Hebrews leperous people who were forced from Egypt that were followers of Set. We know during the Hykos stay Set enjoyed high status amungst the Hykos people. In later times the Egyptian peasents associated Set with the Ptolomeic Jews who settled in parts of Egypt,and even rejoiced when the Romans overthrew them in revolt. This could be a folk memory of the Hykos event.

Some people will even say that Rameses II was not the exodus pharoah. We know from the Mereptah Stela that Israel is mentioned for the first time in historical notion as a nation but not as slaves. Maybe the later Hebrew scribes embellished their stories to satify their egos. We know the Kemetians did a similar thing telling Didorus Siculus they conquered all the way to Persia and India.

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Originally posted by rasol:
lol. i was wondering if you were going to respond to "homie."

however this time, i agree with him.

i found this definitive picture of ramesis on the stormfront white power website:

You cannot deny high powered proof like this!!!!

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This is great. I love it...

When Rameses died, he was well over the age of 90. So whatever the color of his hair when he was 19 years old, it most likely wasn't the same color as when the brother was old. Maspero's observation seems the more plausible (he was the first to see the mummy unwrapped). White hair that was chemically dyed (on purpose or not).

Know one seems to question the French researchers on their 'discovery'...

And isn't anyone here familiar with the Masai Moran? Amongst them (and a lot of other East African groups), artificially dyed red hair is a fetish!
...

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 15 September 2004).]
 

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And isn't anyone here familiar with the Masai Moran? Amongst them (and a lot of other East African groups), artificially dyed red hair is a fetish!

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Of course, but the Kemetians according to Diop viewed red hair as taboo. Among many Africans red hair is associated with famine and dietary deficiency. My opinion is that if the goal is to deny the Africaness of Kemet, then Ramesis red hair, real or imagined doesn't help them.
 

Consider that observation by Coon in the context of this comment by Loring Brace regarding Herto man (earliest known homo sapien found in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) dated at 150k:

"That splendid Ethiopian specimen is a good candidate for being an ancestor of Ethiopians, but not Europeans. C. Loring Brace". Brace argues instead that Neanderthal is the ancestor of European man.

Here's what's funny:

Coon could argue that Ramesis was Abyssinian type because he believed modern man evolved 1st and most in Europe with other races being lesser evolved deginerate forms (of Europeans). Of course we know today that this is nonsense.

Brace argues from the perspective of having to face the reality that man evolved in Africa (ex. herto man). So....he needs Europeans to have their own (neanderthal?) anthropological heritage, separate from African homo sapiens.

But if Brace is correct that herto man is the ancester of modern Abysinnian, and not of European man.... and Coon is correct that Ramesis is Abysinnian type, well........

Herto Man 150ky (Ethiopia)

These guys play so many games with their "caucasoid" anthropology that they sometimes trap themselves.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 September 2004).]
 

So they did keep their royal blood lines pure. Thats the origins of "higher races", not all that nonsense on Stormfront.

Isn't it more likely that they would have dyed red hair black than vice versa? Also I find it unlikely that black hair could turn red in the tomb. But what if his hair was grey with age? Grey hair could become discoloured in the tomb? It's true that black hair turns red with famine- I've heard of this happening in China too. But not after death.

regards,
sneuropa

[This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 16 September 2004).]

[This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 16 September 2004).]
 

As far as hair changing colors, the process of embalming a mummy in ta bath of natron and other material has shown to have turned hair into blondish reddish colors. Hair also from this process loses elasticity and becomes straight. The only way we can know for sure the original texture or hair color of human hair is through eletron microscopic analysis.

Certain archaeological conditions in burial and even salts from the Sahara has turned pre-dyanstic mummies buried naturally into different colors from their original color which was black and tightly curled. Of course,the modern and ancient Egyptian population has a very diverse type of hair texture that include many types from kinky to wavy to even straight in the Delta region.