quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [qb] [QUOTE] Most native American populations are descended from people like Australian Aborigines Clyde.
Actually, like all modern humans, **ALL** Native Americans are descended from Australian like populations, this is the point Clyde doesn't understand. Clyde thinks all non Africans who don't look African are a result of space aliens, or some crazy deranged theory like Meninarmer or Marc.
quote: As to the similarities with Africans, the best way to explain it in terms of historical connections, is to assume that the **Asian** ancestral population that gave rise to the **Australians** and to the **first Americans** had its ultimate origins in the **African continent**, as it is in fact the case with **ALL*** modern humans (Stringer and Andrews, 1988; Stringer and McKie, 1996; Lahr, 1994, 1996), ***but which retained a very generalized morphology.***In accordance with Lahr (1996), the Australians are in fact the contemporary aboriginal population that retained the most primitive morphology when compared to the first modern humans.As she stressed "Groups like [...] Australo-Melanesians are all examples of relatively early diversifications without great amounts of gene flow from other groups..." (Lahr, 1996, p.335). Clyde you do understand that you didn't address the above, or discuss your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
I understand this perfectly. You are the one who pretends to be blind to the facts.
Nope, not an answer to your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Science shows proto-San as Europe’s earliest population and the East African population that travelled to Southeast Asia and Australia
Our ancestors (the australopithecines @ 3.4 mya), diverged from the chimpanzee but, the prehuman males remained close to the chimpanzee in one unique respect. The male chimpanzee has A (adenosine) at the M42 site.[a] Of 900 men tested worldwide, the only men who have A (adenosine) at the M42 site as chimpanzees do were 15% of the Khoisan and some few others.
Proto-san as Europe’s early population Science writes (see left page below map) that Europe’s early population was these toolmaking Australopithcines and the ancestors of these people from 90,000 years ago started migrating to Australia where they reached it by 60,000 years ago.
[a] Peter Underhill, et. al., Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations, Nature Genetics, 26, issue of 26 November 2000; (2) Ann Gibbons, Y chromosome shows that Adam was an African, Science, 278:5339, pp. 804 – 805, Issue of 31 Oct 1997.
posted
^^^^Lol Marc, you make some of the most outrageous claims, your boy Clyde wouldn't even agree with you on.
As Clyde admits populations reached Australia, Southeast Asia and Oceanic islands alike. As there is also no evidence of modern humans in Europe until 40-45kya. When modern humans were to reach Europe, they still resembled these above mentioned populations, who are very well representative of OOA populations.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Science shows proto-San as Europe’s earliest population and the East African population that travelled to Southeast Asia and Australia
Our ancestors (the australopithecines @ 3.4 mya), diverged from the chimpanzee but, the prehuman males remained close to the chimpanzee in one unique respect. The male chimpanzee has A (adenosine) at the M42 site.[a] Of 900 men tested worldwide, the only men who have A (adenosine) at the M42 site as chimpanzees do were 15% of the Khoisan and some few others.
Proto-san as Europe’s early population Science writes (see left page below map) that Europe’s early population was these toolmaking Australopithcines and the ancestors of these people from 90,000 years ago started migrating to Australia where they reached it by 60,000 years ago.
[a] Peter Underhill, et. al., Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations, Nature Genetics, 26, issue of 26 November 2000; (2) Ann Gibbons, Y chromosome shows that Adam was an African, Science, 278:5339, pp. 804 – 805, Issue of 31 Oct 1997.
Early europeans were Paleolithic people as the Sanid, so it is not illogical that they share the same body form, becuase they were both paleolithic individuals, but that doesn't mean Cro-magnons were "Proto-San"that is erroneous,Humans began changing body shape on the neolithic.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:It is very plausible that the Africans did settle in the so called Americas... So what would be the problem to say that they were Africans?... If Mr. Winters was suggesting that it should be called AFRICA, then you would have a point... But you willing and ready to state CLEARLY ASIA aren't you?....,
^ All human beings originate in Africa.
This means humans as a species are African.
Non Africans by definition are the descendants of the Out of Africa migrants who went on to settle Eurasia and Oceania, Australia and the Americas.
This is not a 'species' distinction, but only an ethnic one, defined in terms of geography.
These people are Natives of the above regions and by definition are therefore not Africans.
If you insist on calling Native Americans - Africans - then - by the same warped logic - you would have to call Europeans - Germans, Swedes, all of them... African too.
Winters knows this, he just specialises in targeting foolish people like Marc Washington with his distorted racist pseudo-theories.
I'm sorry, but Winters is a charleton.
This is why when asked for a single name of a scholar who supports his nonsense, he can't provide...even one.
Be his fool if you want....your choice.
Rasol, I have to admit that you have an extremely good point..., It is with no falseness by anyone including Mr. Winters and Washington that their premise was in Ethnicity!...
We would ALL have to start all over again..., But to put things in real persceptive.. All this back and forth stems from Racist connotations of what ethnicity was in control in the past when regarding ALL civilizations of historical significants was made to appear European!
But I can see your point of view holding it's ground because where then does it end and truly bagin?...,
Eurocentrism did a job on the world!... That's my view.... Other than that... I am learning from you guys... Like I said before... I feel as if I have been excepted in WASET University and the HEAD(SKULL) of Constantine is at the ENTERENCE door!...
...lol....
But I do have one name for you and the others,
IVAN VAN SERTIMA!....,
Posts: 81 | From: Newark, Nj | Registered: Aug 2008
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PMeast. You wrote, "Early europeans were Paleolithic people as the Sanid..."
I've never heard of the "Sanid." Who or what were they?
Someone wrote, "Non Africans by definition are the descendants of the Out of Africa migrants who went on to settle Eurasia and Oceania, Australia and the Americas."
What race is Jay Leno?
What race is Mao Tse Tung?
What race is Michael Jordan?
We define these people by the way they look and the big nose, big lip people are African. Not geographically but morphologically so the person who wrote "Non Africans by definition are the descendants of the Out of Africa migrants who went on to settle Eurasia and Oceania, Australia and the Americas."
is wrong. Those people in Eurasia, Oceania, Australia, and the Americas who resemble Michael Jordan (more than they resemble Tony Blair or Mao Tse Tung) are African by phenotype.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^^^Lol Marc, you make some of the most outrageous claims, your boy Clyde wouldn't even agree with you on.
As Clyde admits populations reached Australia, Southeast Asia and Oceanic islands alike. As there is also no evidence of modern humans in Europe until 40-45kya. When modern humans were to reach Europe, they still resembled these above mentioned populations, who are very well representative of OOA populations.
You claim there was more than one OOA population. Please cite your sources for this conclusion.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^^^Lol Marc, you make some of the most outrageous claims, your boy Clyde wouldn't even agree with you on.
As Clyde admits populations reached Australia, Southeast Asia and Oceanic islands alike. As there is also no evidence of modern humans in Europe until 40-45kya. When modern humans were to reach Europe, they still resembled these above mentioned populations, who are very well representative of OOA populations.
You claim there was more than one OOA population. Please cite your sources for this conclusion.
.
Actually YOU posted that Clyde, with no citations and thus is the BASIS of your argument.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Here is the evidence.
If you could not cross the Beringa until 14kya and all the skeletons of ancient inhabitants are found near the Atlantic coastline the people had to have come from Africa given the fact the carniometrics indicate that they were of the African variety, and ice blocked any possible movement of people from the Pacific to Argintina and Chile where some of the evidence of early man has been found.
The first Americans did not cross the Bearing Straits to enter the Americas.The earliest sites for Negroes date between 20,000 and 40000 years ago Old Crow Basin Canada(38,000BC) Pedra Furada (45,000BC) Brazil. These people were pygmies and bushman types according to Dr. Dixon, & Dr. Marquez(p.179).
Chile: Monteverde (12,500 years), Tierra del Fuego, Cueva de Fell, Tres Arroyos and some other places.
There are older ones in the Argentinian Patagonia.
quote:
—Patagonia was the world's last place to be colonized by humans. In Arica there have been found remains of 9,000 years; the same in a place at the High Aconcagua and Huentelauquén. In Chile we have more than half of the continent's most ancient human skeletons, all well dated and documented.
Archaeologists believe they have discovered a 13,600-year-old human skeleton deep in a Caribbean underwater cave, making it the oldest ever found in the Americas. The discovery could have profound effects on theories of how humans first reached North America.
The female skeleton, called Eve of Naharon, was found with three other human skeletons in underwater caves along the coast of the Yucatan Peninsula. Excavation of a fourth skeleton – possibly even older than Eve – begins this month in a nearby cave.
The three other skeletons found with Eve have been radiocarbon-dated from 11,000 to 14,000 years ago.
All were found in underwater caves about 50 feet below the surface. At the time Eve and the others would have lived there, the sea level was about 200 feet lower, and the Yucatan Peninsula was a dry prairie. Melting of the polar ice caps 9,000 years ago submerged the burial ground and the subsequent growth of stalactites and stalagmites kept the skeletons from being washed out to sea.
In 1959 archaeologists found the Penon woman skeleton at Mexico City.
[/b] Penon Woman[/b]
Penon woman has been characterized as a Negro and is physically different from Native Americans. The Penon skeleton has been dated between 12,500-15,000BP. The skull of Penon woman is dolichocephalic like most Negroes, not brachysephalic (short and braod) like modern Native Americans. She is related to the Fuegians of Parana Argentina and the Luizia population of Brazil.
Here we have a comparison of ancient skulls found in the Americas.
In the picture above we have three ancient American skulls. They are a) Penon woman (12.755 Ka), b) Texcal Man (9.5ka) and c) Pericue Indian (18th Century). If you look notice Pericue man shows broad features characteristic of the mongoloid type, while both Penon and Texcul do not.
Some researchers claim that these skeletons are of Australian or Melanesian Blacks. This is highly unlikely given the fact that that have been found near the Atlantic Ocean and suggestive of a migration from Africa to Mexico, like the migration of the Olmec 11,000 years later. This view is supported by the discovery of the so-called Eva Neharon skeleton (c.13,600 ) dating to around the same period found in the Caribbean.
By 11,500 we see the appearence tall Negroes from Africa in Colombia, Venezuela and Brazil e.g.,Luiza. Negroes settled America both from the Bearing & South America. Cite an archaeological site where Amerind skeletons have been found prior to the Negro skeletons.
quote:
Oldest Skeleton in Americas Found in Underwater Cave? Eliza Barclay for National Geographic News
September 3, 2008
Deep inside an underwater cave in Mexico, archaeologists may have discovered the oldest human skeleton ever found in the Americas.
Dubbed Eva de Naharon, or Eve of Naharon, the female skeleton has been dated at 13,600 years old. If that age is accurate, the skeleton—along with three others found in underwater caves along the Caribbean coast of the Yucatán Peninsula—could provide new clues to how the Americas were first populated.
The remains have been excavated over the past four years near the town of Tulum, about 80 miles southwest of Cancún, by a team of scientists led by Arturo González, director of the Desert Museum in Saltillo, Mexico (see map of Mexico).
"We don't now how [the people whose remains were found in the caves] arrived and whether they came from the Atlantic, the jungle, or inside the continent," González said.
"But we believe these finds are the oldest yet to be found in the Americas and may influence our theories of how the first people arrived."
In addition to possibly altering the time line of human settlement in the Americas, the remains may cause experts to rethink where the first Americans came from, González added.
Clues from the skeletons' skulls hint that the people may not be of northern Asian descent, which would contradict the dominant theory of New World settlement. That theory holds that ancient humans first came to North America from northern Asia via a now submerged land bridge across the Bering Sea (see an interactive map of ancient human migration).
"The shape of the skulls has led us to believe that Eva and the others have more of an affinity with people from South Asia than North Asia," González explained.
Concepción Jiménez, director of physical anthropology at Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History, has viewed the finds and says they may be Mexico's oldest and most important human remains to date.
"Eva de Naharon has the Paleo-Indian characteristics that make the date seem very plausible," Jiménez said.
Ancient Floods, Giant Animals
The three other skeletons excavated in the caves have been given a date range of 11,000 to 14,000 years ago, based on radiocarbon dating.
Radiocarbon dating measures the age of organic materials based on their content of the radioactive isotope carbon 14.
According to archaeologist David Anderson of the University of Tennessee, however, minerals in seawater can sometimes alter the carbon 14 content of bones, resulting in inaccurate radiocarbon dating results.
The remains were found some 50 feet (15 meters) below sea level in the caves off Tulum. But at the time Eve of Naharon is believed to have lived there, sea levels were 200 feet (60 meters) lower, and the Yucatán Peninsula was a wide, dry prairie.
The polar ice caps melted dramatically 8,000 to 9,000 years ago, causing sea levels to rise hundreds of feet and submerging the burial grounds of the skeletons. Stalactites and stalagmites then grew around the remains, preventing them from being washed out to sea.
González has also found remains of elephants, giant sloths, and other ancient fauna in the caves.
(Learn more about how caves form.)
Human Migration Theories
If González's finds do stand up to scientific scrutiny, they will raise many interesting new questions about how the Americas were first peopled.
Many researchers once believed humans entered the New World from Asia as a single group crossing over the Bering Land Bridge no earlier than 13,500 years ago. But that theory is lately being debunked.
Remains found in Monte Verde, Chile, in 1997, for example, point to the presence of people in the Americas at least 12,500 years ago, long before migration would have been possible through the ice-covered Arctic reaches of North America.
(Related: "Clovis People Not First Americans, Study Shows" [February 23, 2007].)
Confirmation of Eve of Naharon's age could further revolutionize the thinking about the settlement of the Americas.
This September, González will begin excavating the fourth skeleton, known as Chan hol, which he says could be even older than Eve.
The Chan hol remains include more than ten teeth, which will allow researchers to date the specimen and gather information about Chan hol's diet.
"When we learn more about the [Mexican finds] we'll be able to better evaluate them," said Carlos Lorenzo, a researcher at the Universitat Rovira i Virgili in Tarragona, Spain, an expert on the subject who was not involved in the current study.
"But in any case, if it's confirmed that Eva de Naharon is 13,000 years old, it will be a fantastic and extraordinary finding for understanding the first settlers of America."
González said he and his team hope to publish the full results of their analysis after the excavation of the fourth skeleton.
"We're not yet in the phase of research of determining how they arrived," he said. "But when we have more evidence we may be able to determine that."
USA 28,000-25,000 14C y.a. This vegetation map showing the eastern USA during the period 28,000-25,000 14C y.a. has been compiled by Paul & Hazel Delcourt. An ice sheet already covered most of Canada and extended south of the Great Lakes. Boreal conifer woodlands and forests predominated in what is now the cool temperate forest zone, and the cool and warm temperate forest belts were compressed southwards.
The last ice age in North America lasted between 110,000 and 17,000BP. The ice-free corridor on the eastern flank of the Rockies did not open before 13,000 years ago. Africans were in the Americas long before the end of the last Ice Age when the “Siberians”, who also were more than likely Africans began to cross the Bearing Straits. By 12,500 BC Africans were already living in Chile.
Stop trying to steal the heritage of the Black people like the Olmecs, who represent the Mother Culture of Mexico.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [qb] [QUOTE] Most native American populations are descended from people like Australian Aborigines Clyde.
Actually, like all modern humans, **ALL** Native Americans are descended from Australian like populations, this is the point Clyde doesn't understand. Clyde thinks all non Africans who don't look African are a result of space aliens, or some crazy deranged theory like Meninarmer or Marc.
quote: As to the similarities with Africans, the best way to explain it in terms of historical connections, is to assume that the **Asian** ancestral population that gave rise to the **Australians** and to the **first Americans** had its ultimate origins in the **African continent**, as it is in fact the case with **ALL*** modern humans (Stringer and Andrews, 1988; Stringer and McKie, 1996; Lahr, 1994, 1996), ***but which retained a very generalized morphology.***In accordance with Lahr (1996), the Australians are in fact the contemporary aboriginal population that retained the most primitive morphology when compared to the first modern humans.As she stressed "Groups like [...] Australo-Melanesians are all examples of relatively early diversifications without great amounts of gene flow from other groups..." (Lahr, 1996, p.335). Clyde you do understand that you didn't address the above, or discuss your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
I understand this perfectly. You are the one who pretends to be blind to the facts.
In many cases you will find that Coconuts who have a psychosis brought on by white supremacy suffer from “knowledge blindness”. Knowledge bindness can be defined as the feeling that anything said by another AA is wrong because it was not said first by a European.
I will give you an example. Above I discuss the fact that the Fuegians carry the same STRs as Africans based on the research literature as evidence I provide two citations.
Citation One (1)
quote: Titre du document / Document title Early population differentiation in extinct aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia: Ancient mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome STR characterization = Différentiation des populations anciennes chez les aborigènes éteints de la Patagonie-Terre de Feu : Séquences d'ADNmt et caractérisation STR du chromosome Y Auteur(s) / Author(s) GARCIA-BOUR Jaume (1) ; PEREZ-PEREZ Alejandro (1) ; ALVAREZ Sara (1) ; FERNANDEZ Eva (1) ; LOPEZ-PARRA Ana Maria (1 2) ; ARROYO-PARDO Eduardo (1 2) ; TURBON Daniel (1) ; Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s) (1) Secció d'Antropologia, Departament de Biologia Animal, Universitat de Barcelona, 08028 Barcelona, ESPAGNE (2) Laboratorio de Biologia Forense, Departamento de Toxicología y Legislación Sanitaria, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad Complutense, 28040 Madrid, ESPAGNE Résumé / Abstract Ancient mtDNA was succesfully recovered from 24 skeletal samples of a total of 60 ancient individuals from Patagonia-Tierra del Fuego, dated to 100-400 years BP, for which consistent amplifications and two-strand sequences were obtained. Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) and the biallelic system DYS199 were also amplified, Y-STR alleles could be characterized in nine cases, with an average of 4.1 loci per sample correctly typed. In two samples of the same ethnic group (Aonikenk), an identical and complete eight-loci haplotype was recovered. The DYS199 biallelic system was used as a control of contamination by modern DNA and, along with DYS19, as a marker of American origin. The analysis of both mtDNA and Y-STRs revealed DNA from Amerindian ancestry. The observed polymorphisms are consistent with the hypothesis that the ancient Fuegians are close to populations from south-central Chile and Argentina, but their high nucleotide diversity and the frequency of single lineages strongly support early genetic differentiation of the Fuegians through combined processes of population bottleneck, isolation, and/or migration, followed by strong genetic drift. This suggests an early genetic diversification of the Fuegians right after their arrival at the southernmost extreme of South America. Revue / Journal Title American journal of physical anthropology ISSN 0002-9483 Source / Source 2004, vol. 123, no4, pp. 361-370 [10 page(s) (article)] (47 ref.)
Here Garcia Bour et al note that: Fuegian Y-chromosomes STRs include “Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) “
Citation Two (2)
quote: Diversity of Y-STR haplotypes of chromosomes belonging to hgA1 and within the R surname. (a) Relationships of Y-STR haplotypes within hgA1. Weighted median joining network containing the 10-locus Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population.
European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 288–293. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201771; published online 24 January 2007 Africans in Yorkshire? The deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny within an English genealogy Turi E King1
In this paper, King et al make it clear that the “Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes.[/b] “ belong to hg A1.
Note that Garcia Bour et al maintains Fuegians carry these STRs
You don’t have to be brain scientist to recognize that concordance exist between the two sets of STRs.
It stands to reason that if the Fuegians carry Y-STRs associated with haplogroup A1 which is an African haplogroup, the Fuegians have direct African ancestry.
This led me to reach the following conclusion based on the evidence:
quote: Researchers have been able to recover mtDNA samples from 24 out of 60 ancient skeletons from Tierra del Fuego dating to 100-400BP. The y chromosome STRs were DYS434,DYS437,DYS 439, DYS 393, DYS391,DYS390,DYS19, DYS 389I, DYS389II and DYS 388 (see: Garcia-Bour et al below). Except for DYS390 and DYS388 are characteristic of haplogroup A1 (see: King et al, below). A1 is recognized as an African haplogroup. This genetic data make it clear that Negro Fuegians were living in Fuego, 9000 years after Neves believed they had been replaced by mongoloid folk.
The fact that KIK and rasol, individuals who we can assume have normal intelligence could not see the relationship between the Y-chromosomes in these populations makes it clear that they must be a victim of “Knowledge blindness”. A psychosis resulting from their acceptance of their own inferiority and white supremist ideas.
Coconuts. Stop trying to steal the heritage of the First African Americans.
posted
No members of the OOA population made their way to the New World.
There is clear evidence that the OOA population settled Asia. But lets not forget that if the OOA population who took the eastern route out of Africa left the Continent around 60kya this would have been during the last Ice Age.
The Ice Age latsed from from 110kya to around 12kya. As a result the OOA populartion would have found it impossible to take a land route to the Americas across Beringa. As a result, your insistence that the OOA population made their way to the Americas does not correlate with the environmental and archaeological evidence.
.
.
The ancient Americans looked more like the Khoisan then Australians, because they came from Africa not Asia.
Stop attempting to make it appear that anthropologists claim the earliest skeletal remains found in the Americas such as Luzia are definitely Australian. This is not true Neves made it clear that the anatomy of her skull and teeth - including a narrow, oval cranium, projecting face and pronounced chin - likens Luzia to Africans and Australasians.
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You know nothing about anthropology. Current physical anthropological research makes it clear there are craniometric difference between Australoids /Australians representatives of the OOA population, Mongoloids and Melanoids; craniometric differences that indicate two migrations of the Black Variety into the Pacific and East Asia.
Tsuenehiko Hanihare discussed the phenotypic variations between these populations(1). Tsuenehiko classified these people into three major populations Southeast Asian Mongoloids (Polynesians), the Australians or Austroloid type and the Nicobar and Andaman (Melanoid) samples which he found lie between the predominately Southeast Asian and Australoid/Australian type (1).
The Australian aborigines and Melanesians show cranonical variates and represent two distinct Black populations(2). The Australoids or Australians live mainly in Australia and the highland regions of Oceania, the Melanoid people on the otherhand live in the coastal regions of Near Oceania and Fiji. D.J de Laubenfels discussed the variety of Blacks found in Asia. Laubenfiels explained that Negroids/Melanoids such as the Tasmanians are characterized by wooly black hair and sparse body hair (2). Australoids or Australians on the otherhand have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Other differences between these Black populations include Negroid / Melanoid brows being vertical and without eyebrow ridges, whereas Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges (2).
This led M. Pietrusewky to recognize two separate colonizations of the Pacific by morphologically distinct populations one Polynesian and the other Melanesian (3). Pietrusewky’s research indicates a clear separation between the Australian-Melanesian crania and the Polynesian crania (3). The findings indicate an origin for the Polynesians in Southeast Asia (3-5), and an early Australo-Melanesian presence in East Asia as discussed in the earlier comment.
Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya (2). This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics (4). This research indicates that whereas Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa, they fail to correspond to the Sahulland crania which are distinctly of Southwest Pacific or Melanoid affinity (2,4). This suggests that by the rise of Sahulland there were two distinct Black populations in Asia one Austroloid and the other Melanoid (4).
The Melanesian type does not appear in East Asia (Siberia) until after 5000 BC. This is thousands of years after Luizia and Eva Neharon had existed in Brazil and Mexico respectively.
By the Neolithic the Melanoids or Papuans are associated with millet cultivation at Yangshao and Lougshan according to Pietrusewky’s work (5). Tsang argues that the probable homeland of the Austronesian speakers was the Pearl River delta, here the Melanoid people cultivated millet (6). Sagart believes that there is a Proto-Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian family of languages based on the millet culture the Melanoids introduced to China (7).
The craniometrics make it clear the ancient Americans are not related to the Melanesians.
Reference:
1. Tsunehiko Hanihare, Interpretation of craniofacial variations and diversification of East and Southeast Asia. In Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia. (Eds.) Marc Oxenhan and Nancy Tayles (pp.91-111). Cambridge, 2005.
2. D.J. Laubenfels, Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions. Annals Association of Am. Geographers, 58(1), 1968: 42-50.
3. Michael Pietrusewky, A multivariate craniometric study of the prehistoric and modern inhabitants of Southeast Asia, East Asia and surrounding regions:A human kaleidoscope. Cambridge Studies in Biological and Evolutionary Anthropology, No. 43, 2006: 59-90.
5. M. Pietrusewsky, The Physical anthropology of the Pacific, East Asia: A multivariate craniometric analysis. . In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology,Linguistics and Genetics (pp.201-229). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
6. Tsang Cheng-Hwa, Recent discoveries at Tapenkeng culture sites in Taiwan;Implications for the problem of Austronesian origins. In The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics ,(Eds) L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (pp.63-74). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
7. L. Sagart, Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian an Updated and improved argument. In L. Sagart, R. Blench, A. Sanchez-Mazos (Eds), The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics (pp.161-176). RutledgeCurzon, 2005.
These papers are all written within the past 2-3 years and highlight the fact you know nothing about contemporary anthropology and the peopling of Asia.
1) the Australians represent the OOA population that settled Asia
2) during the OOA event much of Siberia and North America was under ice from 110,000 - 10,000BC. As a result there was no way Siberians could cross Beringa before the end of the ice age
3) Ice even separated much of South America east to west .
. 4) the first Americans appear in Brazil, Chile and Argintina Latin America around 30,000 BC
5)using craniometric evidence it is clear that the first Americans look like Africans not modern Asian Native Americans
6) using craniometrics I have pointed out that Asia was dominated by the Australian population until the rise of Suhulland when the Melanesian people appear in the area, at this time the Beringa was still under Ice
7) I pointed out that the Melanesian type reach East Asian mainland by 5000 BC, long after Africans had settled Latin America
8) between 15,000-12,000 we see numerous African populations in Mexico and Brazil; and skeletons dating to this period have even been found off the Yucatan coast in the Caribbean
9) these first Americans did not look like the Australians or modern Amerinds
10) iconography of PreClassic people like the Cherla, Ocos and other groups is of Negroes not Amerinds like the Maya
11) Amerind groups not associated with African slaves carry African genes
12) Maya carried African y chromosome
13) Chontal Mayan speakers were classified as Negroes by Quatrefages. This may explain why the Maya carry African genes
14)Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast
15) The Dufuna boat makes it clear that Africans probably had the technology to travel to the Americas 15,000 years ago.
16) Fuegians 100-400 BP carried haplogroup A1. Hg A1 is an African haplogroup.
17) Amerinds carry haplogroup N, just like Africans.
18)The y chromosome STRs of the Fuegians include DYS434,DYS437,DYS 439, DYS 393, DYS391,DYS390,DYS19, DYS 389I, DYS389II and DYS 388 (see: Garcia-Bour et al above). Except for DYS390 and DYS388 they are characteristic of haplogroup A1 . A1 is recognized as an African haplogroup.
19)Quatrefages noted numerous African Native American tribes
20)The antiquity of these populations is supported by the ancient iconography found in these countries which are of African Native Americans.
21) Most contemporary populations are descendants of the San people not Australians.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: ^^^^Lol Marc, you make some of the most outrageous claims, your boy Clyde wouldn't even agree with you on.
As Clyde admits populations reached Australia, Southeast Asia and Oceanic islands alike. As there is also no evidence of modern humans in Europe until 40-45kya. When modern humans were to reach Europe, they still resembled these above mentioned populations, who are very well representative of OOA populations.
You claim there was more than one OOA population. Please cite your sources for this conclusion.
.
Sorry Clyde, but my point is there was only one population who left Africa represented by OOA, Australians etc... This population became the founding lineages of all non African lineages which is what all people outside of Africa are, non African. Which is what we call OOA. All non Africans possess a sub-set of East African genes.
Your premise is there were multiple migrations OOA. Two specifically, one directly from Africa into Europe, and another from Africa into the Americas, which are both wrong. You're required to provide this evidence.
From Cavalli-Sforza: Genes, Culture, and Human Evolution. Pg 187.
quote: ..."In other words, all non-Africans carry M168. Of course, Africans carrying the M168 mutation today are the descendants of the African subpopulation from which the migrants originated.... Thus, the Australian/Eurasian Adam (the ancestor of all non-Africans) was an East African Man."
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [qb] [QUOTE] Most native American populations are descended from people like Australian Aborigines Clyde.
Actually, like all modern humans, **ALL** Native Americans are descended from Australian like populations, this is the point Clyde doesn't understand. Clyde thinks all non Africans who don't look African are a result of space aliens, or some crazy deranged theory like Meninarmer or Marc.
quote: As to the similarities with Africans, the best way to explain it in terms of historical connections, is to assume that the **Asian** ancestral population that gave rise to the **Australians** and to the **first Americans** had its ultimate origins in the **African continent**, as it is in fact the case with **ALL*** modern humans (Stringer and Andrews, 1988; Stringer and McKie, 1996; Lahr, 1994, 1996), ***but which retained a very generalized morphology.***In accordance with Lahr (1996), the Australians are in fact the contemporary aboriginal population that retained the most primitive morphology when compared to the first modern humans.As she stressed "Groups like [...] Australo-Melanesians are all examples of relatively early diversifications without great amounts of gene flow from other groups..." (Lahr, 1996, p.335). Clyde you do understand that you didn't address the above, or discuss your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
I understand this perfectly. You are the one who pretends to be blind to the facts.
Nope, not an answer to your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
^^^^^I wonder when Clyde will address his Mtdna claim....???
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quote:The white Americans come from Europe so we call them Europeans.
^ Interesting as it implies you admit they are descendant of the aboriginal populations of Europe.... but.... no, we already know you claim the original European population was... African.
So, again, the ethnocentrism that drives your ideology, also cripples it, and renders it incoherent, and self defeating.
The Venus Figures represent the first Europeans. They are representative of the San people and are therefore Africans.
This is a bushman or San.
Hottentot
As I mentioned earlier the Bushman created much of the early civilization of Eurasia. They left us numerous figurines showing their type.
Venus Figurines
The Bushman continue to carry this ancient form.
.
^^^Lmao, I just noticed the pics of the females pictured with Steatopygea, are actually Andaman Islanders, and are not Khoisan. Clyde That wasn't very smart.
Clyde, Steatopygea as you can see, is also found amongst the Andamans, Southeast Asians. See Clyde you propose all of this, but fail to realize original OOA populations represented by Australo-Melanesians, Andaman Islanders, New Guinea etc... Do not possess post OOA African lineages, in concordance with your theories. These groups carry pristine OOA non-African lineages Clyde.
Note above the genetic distance between Africans and populations carrying pristine OOA lineages, Oceanic populations.
I've already posted anthropological evidence which puts European UP humans, most closely resembling Oceanic's, and being quite distinct from Khoisan. Yet you don't address the anthropology, nor do you stop your nonsense of Africans migrating directly from Africa into Europe, which did not happen, Clyde. [/QB][/QUOTE]
^^^^^^I wonder if Clyde will ever address this post.
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quote: You attempt to make it appear that anthropologists claim the earliest skeletal remains found in the Americas such as Luzia are definitely Australian. This is not true Neves made it clear that the anatomy of her skull and teeth - including a narrow, oval cranium, projecting face and pronounced chin - likens Luzia to Africans and Australasians.
Clyde, here is what Neves proposes, maybe you know something he doesn't know.
quote:The oldest Americans' Negroid traits are not very specialized, making a direct immigration from Africa or Australia unlikely. Therefore, **Neves**(the head proponent for Australia/African like populations reaching America) believes that the America's more than 12,000 years ago did not necessarily occur by sea: "The traditional path across the Bering Strait is still the most plausible explanation for the entry of this non-Mongoloid population into the New World, if we assume that it was present in Northern Asia at the end of the Pleistocene." And indeed, Japan's aborigines, of whom a few still live in Hokkaido and on the Kurile Islands, display some Australian traits, such as round eye sockets and abundant body hair. A genetic comparison might solve the mystery...
''We know that today's Amerindians have ***four main groups***,'' said Dr. Pena, who found a genetic marker common to 17 different widely dispersed Indian groups across the Americans in the course of an earlier project. ''What would constitute molecular proof of ***Walter's (NEVES)*** hypothesis is to find ***DNA sequences COMPLETELY **different** from those ***four groups***.''
Dr. Meltzer said: ''This is clearly the way to resolve the issue. The skull is intriguing morphological evidence, but in order to really nail down this issue of affinity, you need evidence, and ***DNA*** is the way to go.''
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quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: PMeast. You wrote, "Early europeans were Paleolithic people as the Sanid..."
I've never heard of the "Sanid." Who or what were they?
I meant the Bushmen, that they also are paleolithic as the Cro-magnons and Paleo-Asians, so therefore they will have a similar body shape.
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quote:Originally posted by Marc Washington: We define these people by the way they look and the big nose, big lip people are African. Not geographically but morphologically
They are defined as Paleolithic individuals by anthropologists, we don't care what you Afrocentrists want to define them.
quote:so the person who wrote "Non Africans by definition are the descendants of the Out of Africa migrants who went on to settle Eurasia and Oceania, Australia and the Americas."
is wrong.
No, that person is right.
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Note above the genetic distance between Africans and populations carrying pristine OOA lineages, Oceanic populations.
I've already posted anthropological evidence which puts European UP humans, most closely resembling Oceanic's, and being quite distinct from Khoisan. Yet you don't address the anthropology, nor do you stop your nonsense of Africans migrating directly from Africa into Europe, which did not happen, Clyde.
^^^^^^I wonder if Clyde will ever address this post. [/QB]
I will address this issue now. As noted previously the anthropological literature make it clear the ancient Europeans are related to the San not Australians.
The Venus Figures represent the first Europeans. They are representative of the San people and are therefore Africans.
This is a bushman or San.
Hottentot
As I mentioned earlier the Bushman created much of the early civilization of Eurasia. They left us numerous figurines showing their type.
Venus Figurines
The Bushman continue to carry this ancient form.
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
. There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" related to the San found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman [San] art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
As you can see there is more than one skeleton indicating a San presence in ancient Europe--not Oceanic.
The Fuegians carry the same STRs as Africans based on the research literature as evidence I provide two citations.
Citation One (1)
quote: Titre du document / Document title Early population differentiation in extinct aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia: Ancient mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome STR characterization = Différentiation des populations anciennes chez les aborigènes éteints de la Patagonie-Terre de Feu : Séquences d'ADNmt et caractérisation STR du chromosome Y Auteur(s) / Author(s) GARCIA-BOUR Jaume (1) ; PEREZ-PEREZ Alejandro (1) ; ALVAREZ Sara (1) ; FERNANDEZ Eva (1) ; LOPEZ-PARRA Ana Maria (1 2) ; ARROYO-PARDO Eduardo (1 2) ; TURBON Daniel (1) ; Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s) (1) Secció d'Antropologia, Departament de Biologia Animal, Universitat de Barcelona, 08028 Barcelona, ESPAGNE (2) Laboratorio de Biologia Forense, Departamento de Toxicología y Legislación Sanitaria, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad Complutense, 28040 Madrid, ESPAGNE Résumé / Abstract Ancient mtDNA was succesfully recovered from 24 skeletal samples of a total of 60 ancient individuals from Patagonia-Tierra del Fuego, dated to 100-400 years BP, for which consistent amplifications and two-strand sequences were obtained. Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) and the biallelic system DYS199 were also amplified, Y-STR alleles could be characterized in nine cases, with an average of 4.1 loci per sample correctly typed. In two samples of the same ethnic group (Aonikenk), an identical and complete eight-loci haplotype was recovered. The DYS199 biallelic system was used as a control of contamination by modern DNA and, along with DYS19, as a marker of American origin. The analysis of both mtDNA and Y-STRs revealed DNA from Amerindian ancestry. The observed polymorphisms are consistent with the hypothesis that the ancient Fuegians are close to populations from south-central Chile and Argentina, but their high nucleotide diversity and the frequency of single lineages strongly support early genetic differentiation of the Fuegians through combined processes of population bottleneck, isolation, and/or migration, followed by strong genetic drift. This suggests an early genetic diversification of the Fuegians right after their arrival at the southernmost extreme of South America. Revue / Journal Title American journal of physical anthropology ISSN 0002-9483 Source / Source 2004, vol. 123, no4, pp. 361-370 [10 page(s) (article)] (47 ref.)
Here Garcia Bour et al note that: Fuegian Y-chromosomes STRs include “Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) “
Citation Two (2)
quote: Diversity of Y-STR haplotypes of chromosomes belonging to hgA1 and within the R surname. (a) Relationships of Y-STR haplotypes within hgA1. Weighted median joining network containing the 10-locus Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population.
European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 288–293. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201771; published online 24 January 2007 Africans in Yorkshire? The deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny within an English genealogy Turi E King1
In this paper, King et al make it clear that the “Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes.[/b] “ belong to hg A1.
Note that Garcia Bour et al maintains Fuegians carry these STRs
You don’t have to be brain scientist to recognize that concordance exist between the two sets of STRs.
It stands to reason that if the Fuegians carry Y-STRs associated with haplogroup A1 which is an African haplogroup, the Fuegians have direct African ancestry.
This led me to reach the following conclusion based on the evidence:
quote: Researchers have been able to recover mtDNA samples from 24 out of 60 ancient skeletons from Tierra del Fuego dating to 100-400BP. The y chromosome STRs were DYS434,DYS437,DYS 439, DYS 393, DYS391,DYS390,DYS19, DYS 389I, DYS389II and DYS 388 (see: Garcia-Bour et al below). Except for DYS390 and DYS388 are characteristic of haplogroup A1 (see: King et al, below). A1 is recognized as an African haplogroup. This genetic data make it clear that Negro Fuegians were living in Fuego, 9000 years after Neves believed they had been replaced by mongoloid folk.
The fact that KIK and rasol, individuals who we can assume have normal intelligence could not see the relationship between the Y-chromosomes in these populations makes it clear that they must be a victim of “Knowledge blindness”. A psychosis resulting from their acceptance of their own inferiority and white supremist ideas.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Fuegians and Khoisan share many cultural features. Note the house construction of these populations.
The signature six microsatellites in YAP and M174 are DYS19, DYS388,DYS390, DYS5391,DYS392 and DYS393. These microsatellites that usually define M174, are also found among the Khoisan.
This indicates that the Fuegians carry genes introduced by the Khoisan who would have been the first people to colonize Americas.
quote:I will address this issue now. As noted previously the anthropological literature make it clear the ancient Europeans are related to the San not Australians.
Where is this anthropological data? Where are the post OOA genes found in Europeans?
Meanwhile.........
They most closely resembled Oceanic populations and not Khoisan, sorry kid.
Late Pleistocene Human Skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, and Modern Human Origins
Thus, Hofmeyr is seemingly primitive in comparison to recent African crania in a number of features, including a prominent glabella; moderately thick, continuous supraorbital tori; a tall, flat, and straight malar; a broad frontal process of the maxilla; and comparatively large molar crowns. Hofmeyr is contemporaneous with later Eurasian Neandertals, but it clearly does not evince the cranial and mandibular apomorphies that define that clade (28). This is not surprising, given its geographic location. Although Hofmeyr is similar in size to Eurasian UP crania, it differs from them in other respects (such as its broad nose and continuous supraorbital tori). In order to assess the phenetic affinities of Hofmeyr to penecontemporaneous Eurasian UP and recent humans, we conducted multivariate morphometric analyses of 3D landmark coordinates and linear measurements of crania representing these populations. We digitized 19 3D coordinates of landmarks that represent as fully as possible the currently preserved anatomy of the Hofmeyr skull (table S4). These were compared with homologous data for recent human samples from five broad geographic areas (North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, Western Eurasia, Oceania, and Eastern Asia/New World). The sub-Saharan sample was divided into Bantuspeaking (Mali and Kenya) and South African Khoe-San samples. The latter are represented in the Holocene archaeological record of the subcontinent, and inasmuch as they are the oldest historic indigenes of southern Africa, they might be expected to have the closest affinity to Hofmeyr (12). The North African sample consists of Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) individuals that provide a temporal depth of approximately 10,000 years. The 3D data were also compared for two Neandertal, four Eurasian UP, and one Levantine early modern human fossils (table S5). The landmark coordinate configurations for each specimen were superimposed with the use of generalized Procrustes analysis and analyzed with a series of multivariate statistical techniques (29). Hofmeyr falls at the upper ends of the recent sub-Saharan African sample ranges and within the upper parts of all other recent human sample ranges in terms of centroid size (fig. S6). In a canonical variates analysis of these landmarks (Fig. 2), axis 1 separates the sub-Saharan African samples from the others, and axis 4 tends to differentiate the UP specimens from recent homologs. Hofmeyr clusters with the UP sample, and although it falls within the recent human range on both axes, it is outside the 95% confidence ellipse for the Khoe-San sample and barely within the limits of the other sub-Saharan African sample. These canonical axes are weakly correlated with centroid size, which emphasizes that the similarity between Hofmeyr and the UP sample is due only in small part to similarity in size.
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quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: [qb] [QUOTE] Most native American populations are descended from people like Australian Aborigines Clyde.
Actually, like all modern humans, **ALL** Native Americans are descended from Australian like populations, this is the point Clyde doesn't understand. Clyde thinks all non Africans who don't look African are a result of space aliens, or some crazy deranged theory like Meninarmer or Marc.
quote: As to the similarities with Africans, the best way to explain it in terms of historical connections, is to assume that the **Asian** ancestral population that gave rise to the **Australians** and to the **first Americans** had its ultimate origins in the **African continent**, as it is in fact the case with **ALL*** modern humans (Stringer and Andrews, 1988; Stringer and McKie, 1996; Lahr, 1994, 1996), ***but which retained a very generalized morphology.***In accordance with Lahr (1996), the Australians are in fact the contemporary aboriginal population that retained the most primitive morphology when compared to the first modern humans.As she stressed "Groups like [...] Australo-Melanesians are all examples of relatively early diversifications without great amounts of gene flow from other groups..." (Lahr, 1996, p.335). Clyde you do understand that you didn't address the above, or discuss your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
I understand this perfectly. You are the one who pretends to be blind to the facts.
Nope, not an answer to your claim of A2 and B2 being African in origin, carried by Khoisan and Pygmies respectively. Obviously you were confused -as always- about these genetic markers, which is why you made a delirious conclusion, based on your confusion of Mtdna and Y-dna. I hope you'll understand one day....
^^^^^I wonder when Clyde will address his Mtdna claim....???
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posted
There is nothing in the post below discussing genetics. Here is the anthropological literature.
As noted previously the anthropological literature make it clear the ancient Europeans are related to the San not Australians.
The Venus Figures represent the first Europeans. They are representative of the San people and are therefore Africans.
This is a bushman or San.
Hottentot
As I mentioned earlier the Bushman created much of the early civilization of Eurasia. They left us numerous figurines showing their type.
Venus Figurines
The Bushman continue to carry this ancient form.
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
. There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" related to the San found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element. Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman [San] art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
Anthropologists study skeletons. As you can see there is more than one skeleton indicating a San presence in ancient Europe--not Oceanic. This is the physical anthropological research pointing to an African origin of European civilization.
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718:
quote:I will address this issue now. As noted previously the anthropological literature make it clear the ancient Europeans are related to the San not Australians.
Where is this anthropological data? Where are the post OOA genes found in Europeans?
Meanwhile.........
They most closely resembled Oceanic populations and not Khoisan, sorry kid.
Late Pleistocene Human Skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, and Modern Human Origins
Thus, Hofmeyr is seemingly primitive in comparison to recent African crania in a number of features, including a prominent glabella; moderately thick, continuous supraorbital tori; a tall, flat, and straight malar; a broad frontal process of the maxilla; and comparatively large molar crowns. Hofmeyr is contemporaneous with later Eurasian Neandertals, but it clearly does not evince the cranial and mandibular apomorphies that define that clade (28). This is not surprising, given its geographic location. Although Hofmeyr is similar in size to Eurasian UP crania, it differs from them in other respects (such as its broad nose and continuous supraorbital tori). In order to assess the phenetic affinities of Hofmeyr to penecontemporaneous Eurasian UP and recent humans, we conducted multivariate morphometric analyses of 3D landmark coordinates and linear measurements of crania representing these populations. We digitized 19 3D coordinates of landmarks that represent as fully as possible the currently preserved anatomy of the Hofmeyr skull (table S4). These were compared with homologous data for recent human samples from five broad geographic areas (North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, Western Eurasia, Oceania, and Eastern Asia/New World). The sub-Saharan sample was divided into Bantuspeaking (Mali and Kenya) and South African Khoe-San samples. The latter are represented in the Holocene archaeological record of the subcontinent, and inasmuch as they are the oldest historic indigenes of southern Africa, they might be expected to have the closest affinity to Hofmeyr (12). The North African sample consists of Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) individuals that provide a temporal depth of approximately 10,000 years. The 3D data were also compared for two Neandertal, four Eurasian UP, and one Levantine early modern human fossils (table S5). The landmark coordinate configurations for each specimen were superimposed with the use of generalized Procrustes analysis and analyzed with a series of multivariate statistical techniques (29). Hofmeyr falls at the upper ends of the recent sub-Saharan African sample ranges and within the upper parts of all other recent human sample ranges in terms of centroid size (fig. S6). In a canonical variates analysis of these landmarks (Fig. 2), axis 1 separates the sub-Saharan African samples from the others, and axis 4 tends to differentiate the UP specimens from recent homologs. Hofmeyr clusters with the UP sample, and although it falls within the recent human range on both axes, it is outside the 95% confidence ellipse for the Khoe-San sample and barely within the limits of the other sub-Saharan African sample. These canonical axes are weakly correlated with centroid size, which emphasizes that the similarity between Hofmeyr and the UP sample is due only in small part to similarity in size.
posted
One of the Jefferson Building's most striking exterior features are the thirty-three ethnological heads that surround it, serving as keystone ornaments of the first story windows. Otis T. Mason, curator of the Department of Ethnology in the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, was the special advisor for this project. In Herbert Small's 1897 Handbook of the New Library of Congress, this undertaking is described as "the first instance of a comprehensive attempt to make ethnological science contribute to the architectural decoration of an important public building." The heads themselves, created by William Boyd and Henry Jackson Ellicott, were based on information provided by Professor Mason. The list of the races represented, as described by Small, and the location of the keystones follow.
Starting at the north end of the front entrance pavilion, the first head is that of a Russian Slav, located beneath the portico bust of Demosthenes. Continuing across the west front, the heads are: Blonde European; Brunette European; Modern Greek; Persian (Iranian);
On the south side: Circassian; Hindu; Hungarian (Magyar); Semite, or Jew; Arab (Bedouin); Turk
On the east side: Modern Egyptian (Hamite); Abyssinian; Malay; Polynesian; Australian; Negrito (Indian Archipeligo); Sudan Negro; Akka (Dwarf African Negro); Fuegian; Botocudo (South America); Pueblo Indian (Zunis of New Mexico);
On the north side: Esquimaux; Plains Indians (Sioux, Cheyenne, Comanche); Samoyede (Finn); Korean; Japanese; Ainu (northern Japan);
On the west front: Burman; Tibetan; Chinese
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
One of the Jefferson Building's most striking exterior features are the thirty-three ethnological heads that surround it, serving as keystone ornaments of the first story windows. Otis T. Mason, curator of the Department of Ethnology in the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, was the special advisor for this project. In Herbert Small's 1897 Handbook of the New Library of Congress, this undertaking is described as "the first instance of a comprehensive attempt to make ethnological science contribute to the architectural decoration of an important public building." The heads themselves, created by William Boyd and Henry Jackson Ellicott, were based on information provided by Professor Mason. The list of the races represented, as described by Small, and the location of the keystones follow.
Starting at the north end of the front entrance pavilion, the first head is that of a Russian Slav, located beneath the portico bust of Demosthenes. Continuing across the west front, the heads are: Blonde European; Brunette European; Modern Greek; Persian (Iranian);
On the south side: Circassian; Hindu; Hungarian (Magyar); Semite, or Jew; Arab (Bedouin); Turk
On the east side: Modern Egyptian (Hamite); Abyssinian; Malay; Polynesian; Australian; Negrito (Indian Archipeligo); Sudan Negro; Akka (Dwarf African Negro); Fuegian; Botocudo (South America); Pueblo Indian (Zunis of New Mexico);
On the north side: Esquimaux; Plains Indians (Sioux, Cheyenne, Comanche); Samoyede (Finn); Korean; Japanese; Ainu (northern Japan);
On the west front: Burman; Tibetan; Chinese
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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The Fuegians and Khoisan share many cultural features. Note the house construction of these populations.
The signature six microsatellites in YAP and M174 are DYS19, DYS388,DYS390, DYS5391,DYS392 and DYS393. These microsatellites that usually define M174, are also found among the Khoisan. Haplogroup D is M174.
This indicates that the Fuegians carry genes introduced by the Khoisan who would have been the first people to colonize Americas.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about. So please spare us your fake images and made up nonsense about what these people looked like.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about. So please spare us your fake images and made up nonsense about what these people looked like.
Stupid fool. This picture was the first picture ever taken of the Fuegians by Darwin accoring to Natural History Museum.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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All of them show the same combination of Australian Aborigine/African/Asian features that characterize the people of the Americas prior to European contact.
Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about. So please spare us your fake images and made up nonsense about what these people looked like.
Stupid fool. This picture was the first picture ever taken of the Fuegians by Darwin accoring to Natural History Museum.
I don't believe you Clyde. Please show me a citation from the Natural History Museum stating that the photo is of a Fuegian native. I think it is not.
Darwin sailed to Tierra Del Fuego in 1832, BEFORE photography became widespread and wrote about it in the following BOOK:
Doug wrote: Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about.
Marc writes: Doug. You are wrong. Concerning the straight hair you see, for instance. You don't impute in the fact that the diminuitive height of these people is similar to San nor the fact that San have woolly hair and the influx of horny white guys from Europe copulating with "San" woman in the Pacific would produce offspring with brown skin and straight/straighter hair.
Such as the pictures you've shown.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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Marc, black people have been evolving those features since they left Africa 60,000 years ago. It has nothing to do with white folks, as white folks didn't exist when straight hair and all the other features developed among blacks. You keep getting it backwards is the point. ALL FEATURES in humans (except white skin) originates among black people who originally left Africa and settled the entire planet. And these settlers had VARIOUS feature and VARIOUS sizes because the original black people of the earth have the GREATEST DIVERSITY of any population on the planet.
You simply are not making sense. Australian Aborigines have straight hair. Do you think that this is a result of them interbreeding with whites? How so when they have been there in Australia and relatively isolated for over 50,000 years? If they were interbreeding with whites they would be whites or mulattoes and they aren't, as it has been shown WORLDWIDE that this is what happens when whites mate with darker skinned populations. They don't simply leave straight hair genes and no white skin genes. Australian Aboriginal types from Africa are where ALL people get their straight hair from, INCLUDING the whites of Asia and Europe. Again, you are getting it backwards. And straight hair IS a feature found among North East African populations, even though not as much as those from elsewhere.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Thank you for posting the charcoals of Fuegians exactly as published in
FitzRoy, R. Narrative of the surveying voyages of His Majesty's Ships Adventure and Beagle between the years 1826 and 1836, describing their examination of the southern shores of South America, and the Beagle's circumnavigation of the globe. Proceedings of the second expedition, 1831-36, under the command of Captain Robert Fitz-Roy, R.N. London: Henry Colburn, 1839.
Here's another
Though it was ignored when you posted it it remains nevertheless nice research. Good work PR!
quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern: Fuegians:
A quote from 190 of same book
quote: The people of this tribe* are by no means without ideas of a superior Being. They have great faith in a good spirit, whom they call Yerri Yuppon, and consider to be the author of all good: him they invoke in time of distress or danger. They also believe in an evil spirit, called Yaccy-ma, who they think is able to do all kinds of mischief, cause bad weather, famine, illness, &c.: he is supposed to be like an immense black man.
A note on language
quote: In the following fragment of a Vocabulary the vowels should be sounded as in the English syllables, bah, bât, eel, bêt, I, bît, no, tôp, rule, bût, hay; and the consonants as in English, but giving to kh a very guttural sound. One Fuegian expression, something like the cluck of a hen, can scarcely be represented by our letters; its meaning is "no."
Without overemphasizing "the cluck of a hen" to the clicks in Khoi, a short vocabulary can be found here
for those wishing to apply linguistic methodologies to Khoi and Fuegian words.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about. So please spare us your fake images and made up nonsense about what these people looked like. Stupid fool. This picture was the first picture ever taken of the Fuegians by Darwin accoring to Natural History Museum.
I don't believe you Clyde. Please show me a citation from the Natural History Museum stating that the photo is of a Fuegian native. I think it is not.
Darwin sailed to Tierra Del Fuego in 1832, BEFORE photography became widespread and wrote about it in the following BOOK:
Clyde, you simply are making up stuff and do not know what on earth you are talking about. So please spare us your fake images and made up nonsense about what these people looked like. [/qb][/QUOTE]Stupid fool. This picture was the first picture ever taken of the Fuegians by Darwin accoring to Natural History Museum. [/qb][/QUOTE]I don't believe you Clyde. Please show me a citation from the Natural History Museum stating that the photo is of a Fuegian native. I think it is not.
Darwin sailed to Tierra Del Fuego in 1832, BEFORE photography became widespread and wrote about it in the following BOOK:
ALL the images are hand drawn from this time Clyde.
You are lying again Clyde. [/qb][/QUOTE]There is no question that the original African Americans have mixed with Amerinds and now you rarely see the African type. But genetic research makes it clear that the original Fuegians were Black/African people.
the Fuegians carry the same STRs as Africans based on the research literature as evidence I provide two citations.
Citation One (1)
quote: Titre du document / Document title Early population differentiation in extinct aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia: Ancient mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome STR characterization = Différentiation des populations anciennes chez les aborigènes éteints de la Patagonie-Terre de Feu : Séquences d'ADNmt et caractérisation STR du chromosome Y Auteur(s) / Author(s) GARCIA-BOUR Jaume (1) ; PEREZ-PEREZ Alejandro (1) ; ALVAREZ Sara (1) ; FERNANDEZ Eva (1) ; LOPEZ-PARRA Ana Maria (1 2) ; ARROYO-PARDO Eduardo (1 2) ; TURBON Daniel (1) ; Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s) (1) Secció d'Antropologia, Departament de Biologia Animal, Universitat de Barcelona, 08028 Barcelona, ESPAGNE (2) Laboratorio de Biologia Forense, Departamento de Toxicología y Legislación Sanitaria, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad Complutense, 28040 Madrid, ESPAGNE Résumé / Abstract Ancient mtDNA was succesfully recovered from 24 skeletal samples of a total of 60 ancient individuals from Patagonia-Tierra del Fuego, dated to 100-400 years BP, for which consistent amplifications and two-strand sequences were obtained. Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) and the biallelic system DYS199 were also amplified, Y-STR alleles could be characterized in nine cases, with an average of 4.1 loci per sample correctly typed. In two samples of the same ethnic group (Aonikenk), an identical and complete eight-loci haplotype was recovered. The DYS199 biallelic system was used as a control of contamination by modern DNA and, along with DYS19, as a marker of American origin. The analysis of both mtDNA and Y-STRs revealed DNA from Amerindian ancestry. The observed polymorphisms are consistent with the hypothesis that the ancient Fuegians are close to populations from south-central Chile and Argentina, but their high nucleotide diversity and the frequency of single lineages strongly support early genetic differentiation of the Fuegians through combined processes of population bottleneck, isolation, and/or migration, followed by strong genetic drift. This suggests an early genetic diversification of the Fuegians right after their arrival at the southernmost extreme of South America. Revue / Journal Title American journal of physical anthropology ISSN 0002-9483 Source / Source 2004, vol. 123, no4, pp. 361-370 [10 page(s) (article)] (47 ref.)
Here Garcia Bour et al note that: Fuegian Y-chromosomes STRs include “Y-chromosome STRs (DYS434, DYS437, DYS439, DYS393, DYS391, DYS390, DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, and DYS388) “
Citation Two (2)
quote: Diversity of Y-STR haplotypes of chromosomes belonging to hgA1 and within the R surname. (a) Relationships of Y-STR haplotypes within hgA1. Weighted median joining network containing the 10-locus Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population.
European Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 15, 288–293. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201771; published online 24 January 2007 Africans in Yorkshire? The deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny within an English genealogy Turi E King1
In this paper, King et al make it clear that the “Y-STR haplotypes (DYS19, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS389I, DYS389II-I) of eleven hgA1 chromosomes.[/b] “ belong to hg A1.
Note that Garcia Bour et al maintains Fuegians carry these STRs
You don’t have to be brain scientist to recognize that concordance exist between the two sets of STRs.
It stands to reason that if the Fuegians carry Y-STRs associated with haplogroup A1 which is an African haplogroup, the Fuegians have direct African ancestry.
Researchers have been able to recover mtDNA samples from 24 out of 60 ancient skeletons from Tierra del Fuego dating to 100-400BP. The y chromosome STRs were DYS434,DYS437,DYS 439, DYS 393, DYS391,DYS390,DYS19, DYS 389I, DYS389II and DYS 388 (see: Garcia-Bour et al below). Except for DYS390 and DYS388 are characteristic of haplogroup A1 (see: King et al, ).
Haplogroup A1 is recognized as an African haplogroup. This genetic data make it clear that Negro Fuegians were living in Fuego, 9000 years after Neves believed they had been replaced by mongoloid folk as illustrated by the pictures published above.
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