posted
With all the focus and attention European and whites give to Egypt, it baffels me most don't know or care about the Enlightenment, in my opinion one of the most amazing ideologies mankind has ever created. For example the idea that "All men are created equal.." The idea that Religion and State should be seperate, the ideas of modern Science and medicine.
Hell if anything most whites like Christian Fundamentalists believe some conspiracy about the Enlightenment ideas but would these Christians want to live in a Sharia state or a state under the Papacy or under the Mormons etc. The fact that Christians have freedom of religion.
So what gives?? Any insight into this??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
BTW, The Enlightenment was the begining of European Supremacy and White Supremacy etc, but at the same time it was the begining of Archeology, Anthropolgy, and Egyptology etc. Before the 19th century most cultures did not place much value on older cultures, It was Neoclassic scholars who started to "rediscover" places like Old Rome, Greece, Herculaniaum and Pompeii.
For instance if you look at some drawing by Piranesse alot of the Roman monuments were in ruin...
The fact that we can study Egypt is a result of the Enlightenment.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Well I think its human nature to be facinated with another culture, for instance back Americans seem more interested in Egypt than African American culture, alot of whites I know seem fixated on China for some odd reason, and Asians tend to lean toward western culture.
Its a not always that way though
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeansanddodo: I don't know. Tell us more Jaray.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Well I think its human nature to be facinated with another culture, for instance black Americans seem more interested in Egypt than African American culture
Jari, do you really find that to be true? Because I don't. Of course I'm separating what I see through out the cyber world from what I observe on the streets and at the University. I actually find it very difficult to identify people who relate to my interest in ancient history. You would also be hard-pressed to point out any Black Egyptologists yet there as many many black African-American Studies professors.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ That really isn't true. I think people interested in Egypt are generally in the minority. It's quite an academic pursuit.
Admittedly, there are a lot of Afrocentric quacks out there but it's fun to some extent. I mean, I quite enjoy seeing Seti go off even though his message isn't quite accurate. It becomes a problem when they start talking about killing white people; that's the point where I excuse myself from the party.
Posts: 1819 | From: odesco baba | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yeah I agree but Im talking about folks like Seti and Ashra Kwesi etc. A common thread in all the black supremist movements is Egypt. However you are right very few AA are interested in history at all let alone Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Well I think its human nature to be facinated with another culture, for instance black Americans seem more interested in Egypt than African American culture
Jari, do you really find that to be true? Because I don't. Of course I'm separating what I see through out the cyber world from what I observe on the streets and at the University. I actually find it very difficult to identify people who relate to my interest in ancient history. You also are hard-pressed to point out any Black Egyptologists yet there as many many black African-American Studies professors.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Most modern Egyptians or Americans are not very interested in Ancient Egypt. In general most of the interested parties tend to be rich European academics.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Probably one of many reasons why Egypt is looked at as...Non-African.
The Interest may just not be there. Hopefully regardless of whether people enjoy learning about Egypt or not, you just hope the academics reveal the Truth about Egypt's African Identity.
Slow and Steady the Truth is coming out but the vanguards of Hatred are trying to corrupt any teachings from these people. IE:Dienkes, Perahu etc. They Knowing the Truth choose to distort studies and make people think all the progress we have made is regressing. Thankfully there is Good people who post the TRUTH of the Studies so ALL can read them.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Even though most people--of any racial classification--are not actual students of ancient or even modern history, archaeology, etc. a certain kind of post-Enlightenment Eurocentrism serves as the template on which the masses view the world.
Thus you have journalists and scholars--including Africans--using Eurocentric terms such as Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, negroid, Bantu[even for West Africa], black Africa, pure African[ yet not "pure Asian" or "pure European"]. These are the terms created and disseminated during the Enlightenment.
Despite its establishing a highly successful way of viewing the world--secular, scientific, technological, etc.--the Enlightenment also produced the foundations of "scientific racism"--i.e. that some groups are more biologically evolved than others--hence of less human worth or value. It's all part of the general Western[Eurocentric] culture that perniciously pervades the world.
This pernicious culture of Eurocentrism plays a central role in modern Western geopolitics, modern political economy, modern aesthetics, etc.
As examples think of the fact that the rest of the world is too cowardly and accepting of Eurocentrism when the structure of the U.N. Security Council is accepted. The same for world institutions that impact heavily on the lives of non-Westerners such as the IMF and the World Bank. There is no real and serious protest that the head of the WB should be an American and the head of the IMF an European. The world is just too accomodating of Eurocentrism.
Europe assumes confidently that its Nobel prize awarding in all areas is valid for the whole world. Europe also assumes that its silly beauty contests--to which all continents flock--is a true measure of feminine pulchritude world-wide. Most nations and peoples accept this.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
As far as I know whites are perfectly proud of the enlightenment, but it is a relatively recent and unexotic period of history, where as Egypt has the appeal of being steeped in ancient mystery and oriental exoticism.
Maybe there's an impression that the enlightenment had its dark side, i.e. the French Revolution and the violence that surrounded it, and the misuse of the fruits of modern science in modern total war. However there is no doubt that everything good about modernity (i.e. ideas of freedom and equality, science, medicine and progress, and the keeping of religion in its place, away from politics) are all products of the enlightenment.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
So I would say that whites are indeed proud of the Enlightenment. That's why the believe that Western values in politics, economics, all things should prevail.
Think of the Western concept of "democracy". Western scholars that other groups are not really democratic unless they duplicate the Western modes of selecting governments, etc. the same for political economy. Etc., etc.
Western whites also believe that Western governments have the right to attack and bomb other nations if they don't comply to Western dictates. They also believe that killing non-Westerners is not as serious as when non-Westerners kill whites, etc.
This unconscious sense of superiority derives directly and indirectly from the Enlightenment. And the rest of the world just accepts such.
China, for example, which can easily sink the U.S. economy by calling in its bonds and can protect itself with its nuclear arsenal is still awed by the West.
China is mute on the world geopolitical scene except in nearby place like Tibet. But it is so awed by the West that it says and does nothing about Western aggression in West Asia(Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc.) and North Africa(Libya and present bribe attempts by the U.S. re Egypt and Tunisia).
China under Mao was much more muscled and robust power. And the case of Africa? Just don't mention the topic.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I would certainly rather see western ideas of freedom and democracy flourishing around the world than Islamic caliphate. Most regular middle easterners would probably pick modernity, freedom and equality over dark-ages theocratic dictatorship as well.
The west has been marred by hypocrisy, for example half of the Founding Fathers of America- who pontificated about equal rights- were themselves slave owners. This is an astonishing fact, and reflects very poorly on them. However it does nothing to discredit the ideal of equality as they expressed it.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
Americans in general are interested in East Asian culture, there are plenty of black and mixed students of the culture (probably because of the alien nature and size in China's case). There's mainly the Samurai, medieval weapons tech. manufacturing, and manga.
Also ditto to
Sundjata's and anguishofbeansanddodo's (who's posted like thrice) responses to Jari's black American comment.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: the Enlightenment also produced the foundations of "scientific racism"
Not so -- there are many many quotes authored by writers from the two great latin civs Greece and Rome about why blondes are blondes, they are they, why near-easterners are near-easterners and why "Egyptians and Ethiopians" are those, attributing not only skin colors but behaviors to the sun.
To be general they held that they having the best of both worlds were superior (who isn't a little narcissist?), that people who lived where the cold was fiercer were braver but stupider, and that those whose minds were quickened by the heat were more slick but cowardly.
Latins had the bravery and brains and were the coolest!
A lot of times before and during the beginning of the Roman Empire they wrote of more North Westernly areas of Europe from Briton to Germany in the same manner these convert Christians would write about others after their Reconquistas (from Arabo-Moorish rule era) and Rennaisances.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Indeed. This kind of climatological determinism, a precursor to biological determinism, was not limited to western thinking either as Ibn Khaldun applied these kind of ideas heavily through out his Muqaddimah to rationalize his views on the seemingly disproportionate distribution of civilization.
On the other hand it can be argued that the enlightenment produced the model for which "scientific" racism could be practiced via the the foundations of the modern "race" concept. To acknowledge fundamental distinctions based on inherent biology is a concept that grew out of this tradition so you guys may be talking about totally different things (race vs environment).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: the Enlightenment also produced the foundations of "scientific racism"
Not so -- there are many many quotes authored by writers from the two great latin civs Greece and Rome about why blondes are blondes, they are they, why near-easterners are near-easterners and why "Egyptians and Ethiopians" are those, attributing not only skin colors but behaviors to the sun.
To be general they held that they having the best of both worlds were superior (who isn't a little narcissist?), that people who lived where the cold was fiercer were braver but stupider, and that those whose minds were quickened by the heat were more slick but cowardly.
Latins had the bravery and brains and were the coolest!
A lot of times before and during the beginning of the Roman Empire they wrote of more North Westernly areas of Europe from Briton to Germany in the same manner these convert Christians would write about others after their Reconquistas (from Arabo-Moorish rule era) and Rennaisances.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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You are wrong when you say that the human ideas of freedom and democracy are Western There are non-Western societies that have valued freedom(the liberty principle) and democracy(the equality and fairness principle) very highly. Traditional non-capitalist societies in which group welfare and economic reciprocity are obvious candidates. [See the work of Karl Polanyi, esp. The Great Transformation]. A number of African societies also fit the bill--such as the San.
It could be that humans are for dispositions such as "freedom seeking" and "equality seeking". Note how such concepts seem to be already embedded in young children. They all want more freedom and hate it when parents seem to have favourites among the siblings.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I agree 100%. The Enlightenment movement to me was the European answer to how other people such as Muslims, the Chinese, Japanese etc. view Europeans as inferior peoples. Europeans were not perfect but prior to the Enlightenment they seemed more willing to see others as their Equal or not as Inferior.
For example prior to European Domination and the Enlightenment of the 18th century it was not hard to see Europeans engaging African Kingdoms with respect and in high reguard. When the Portugese Found the Congo Empire they wrote highly of how well organized it was. Also in Early America Black Indentured Servants and White Indentured Servants were on the same plane, as a matter of fact they were not even called "White" or "black".
As Rahotep alludes to the Enlightenment was a movement ahead of its time, while the Founding Fathers proclaimed "All men are created equal" they owned slaves and considered non whites as inferior.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Indeed. This kind of climatological determinism, a precursor to biological determinism, was not limited to western thinking either as Ibn Khaldun applied these kind of ideas heavily through out his Muqaddimah to rationalize his views on the seemingly disproportionate distribution of civilization.
On the other hand it can be argued that the enlightenment produced the model for which "scientific" racism could be practiced via the the foundations of the modern "race" concept. To acknowledge fundamental distinctions based on inherent biology is a concept that grew out of this tradition so you guys may be talking about totally different things (race vs environment).
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: the Enlightenment also produced the foundations of "scientific racism"
Not so -- there are many many quotes authored by writers from the two great latin civs Greece and Rome about why blondes are blondes, they are they, why near-easterners are near-easterners and why "Egyptians and Ethiopians" are those, attributing not only skin colors but behaviors to the sun.
To be general they held that they having the best of both worlds were superior (who isn't a little narcissist?), that people who lived where the cold was fiercer were braver but stupider, and that those whose minds were quickened by the heat were more slick but cowardly.
Latins had the bravery and brains and were the coolest!
A lot of times before and during the beginning of the Roman Empire they wrote of more North Westernly areas of Europe from Briton to Germany in the same manner these convert Christians would write about others after their Reconquistas (from Arabo-Moorish rule era) and Rennaisances.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Rahotep is not to far off the mark. When we talk about Freedom its the concepts of the Enlightenment, All Men are Created equal, Freedom from Dicatorships, Freedom from religion, etc. Only in the West do you have Freedom like that which is why Muslims can build Mosques all over England but would Behead anyone who tried to build a Cathedral in Saudi Arabia.
The reason why the West and Europeans have such a strong presence is that by the the 19th century Europeans were producing revolutionary ideas that were far ahead of the time. The Industrial Revolution, the Enlightenment etc.
To see the fruits of how things were look at the Islamic societies which are barbaric and backwards compared to the west.
To think at one time Muslims considered Europeans as Backward, now if you turn on the News all you see is a bunch of Egyptians, Syrians, Bahreini, Yemenis etc. on the street demanding the ideals of the west be implemented in their nations.
Surely the English should be proud as the Enlightement was the English Renaissance.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Rahotep,
You are wrong when you say that the human ideas of freedom and democracy are Western There are non-Western societies that have valued freedom(the liberty principle) and democracy(the equality and fairness principle) very highly. Traditional non-capitalist societies in which group welfare and economic reciprocity are obvious candidates. [See the work of Karl Polanyi, esp. The Great Transformation]. A number of African societies also fit the bill--such as the San.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Ratohep is completely off the mark. He claims that freedom and democracy are Western ideas. Not so at all.
Think of the the European oppression of Africans in Africa and the Americas. I sincerely believe that victims of Apartheid and Colonialism in Africa really longed for freedom and democracy(self rule). The same for the captives held by the whites as slaves in the Americas. In the breast of every slave captive was the longing for freedom and democracy. That's why there were all those revolts.
One thing though: freedom and democracy were central to the Enlightenment but even up to today the nations of Europe don't really practice it. Some possible exceptions: the Scandinavian nations.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Ok I see what you are saying lamin, yeah i theory freedom and equality was central to European philosophy but it took them a long time to put it into practice. If anything Blacks have been fundamental in the rise and spreading of Equality across the world. African Americans for example fought blood sweat and tears for basic freedom not just for blacks but for all Minorities.
Also don't think that the Enlightement philosophy was only contained to Europeans. Blacks very early made use of these ideas. The Haitians for example saw the revolution in France and the ideas of Equality as reason to revolt against their opression.
I'd dare say that with out blacks the ideas of equality and freedom would still be a paper philosophy because no one else dared to stand up.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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