quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ''They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.''
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't G8 protestors come from all over the world and from different religious backgrounds?
The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
The majority were European, as the G8 was held in Europe. When it was held in Canada or America, the protestors were predominantly from that region. Check out the G8 protestor's site. They claim to attract people from all over the world.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
As i said in my post everyone has a right to thier opinion - but to knight someone weather for factual or fictional work when it incites such hatered - especially when religion is involved is not a democractic vote. I personally consider it provocative whithout good reason - but that is only my opinion. I don't think it does any good for the western/muslim relationship as it is seen as an endorsment.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jun 2007
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I think that Egypt's government would be better to focus on condemning countries which imprison writers and try to silence bloggers and human rights activists...like um..er...Egypt! Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I agree with you - but we are talking about the uk that gave the knighthood and our thoughts of if it was right or not?
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yeah agreed i was a blogger until i was caught i found out we are a alien nation silenced me so im a peaceful backpacker looking for some peace what you think girl want to back pack with this overgrown salad bowl. Posts: 370 | From: I luv me Glasses :) | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sharmer2: I agree with you - but we are talking about the uk that gave the knighthood and our thoughts of if it was right or not?
Is it justified, based on artistic contribution? Yes. Does it reflect the broad opinion of the majority of the British people about freedom of speech and artistic expression ? Yes, I think so. Is it politically astute or sensitive? Not particularly, in my view...but I am no fan of Blair or the honours system.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ''They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.''
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't G8 protestors come from all over the world and from different religious backgrounds?
The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
The majority were European, as the G8 was held in Europe. When it was held in Canada or America, the protestors were predominantly from that region. Check out the G8 protestor's site. They claim to attract people from all over the world.
Q&A: Who are the G8 protesters? Thousands of demonstrators have converged on Rostock in northern Germany, ahead of the G8 summit in nearby Heiligendamm. The BBC News website's Jacqueline Head examines the different groups protesting. Who are the groups?
There are a broad range of groups rallying, from environmental and anti-poverty campaigners to anti-globalisation and multi-faith groups, with one overarching common interest: social justice.
Organisations include the Global Call to Action against Poverty (GCAP), Greenpeace, Oxfam, Christian Aid, trade unions, Friends of the Earth, Block G8, Attac and "Black Bloc" demonstrators.
They are divided into two main thought camps.
One recognises the G8 as a legitimate way to bring about change, and uses the summit to lobby for causes they believe should be addressed or acted upon by the leaders.
The other is rallying against the notion of G8. They believe that having leaders from eight different nations making decisions on global issues is not democratic, and that those nations are responsible for many of the world's current problems.
What kind of people are marching?
There are a wide range of ages and nationalities attending rallies around the G8 summit.
They are reported to include boy scouts and over-50s groups.
Some movements, such as those under the Block G8 umbrella - a movement aiming to block the entrance to Heiligendamm - are made up primarily of young Germans, organisers say.
Others, such as GCAP or Greenpeace, have supporters in Germany from all over the world, including France, the UK, China, Japan, the Philippines and Africa, along with a wide range of ages.
What are the main issues for the protesters?
The most prominent issues centre on this year's G8 agenda - above all, poverty and climate change.
Many groups are calling for cancellation of developing nations' debt, trade justice, better healthcare, education, water and sanitation across the globe and action to tackle climate change.
Others are using the summit as a platform to draw attention to other issues, such as war and torture, GM crops, militarisation and "discriminatory" immigration policies.
GCAP are calling for the leaders to fulfil the promises they made at Gleneagles in 2005, saying that the G8 nations are falling short of the targets they originally set themselves.
Ciara O'Sullivan, GCAP spokesperson, said they plan to present UK Prime Minister Tony Blair and German Chancellor Angela Merkel with a petition of one million voices calling on them to fulfil their promises.
Tricia O'Rourke, spokesperson for Oxfam, said: "We are reminding them that they have to deliver."
"In 2005 in Gleneagles they promised they would increase aid to $50bn (£25bn) by 2010, but we recently calculated following current trends they will be short by $30bn."
Greenpeace have an action list they want the leaders to fulfil, which includes reducing carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by 30% by 2020 and 80-90% by 2050.
The EU has pledged to slash CO2 emissions by 20% from 1990 levels by the year 2020, and UK ministers have outlined proposals to cut emissions by 60% by 2050.
Greenpeace campaigner Agnes de Rooij said there was no point in the G8 allocating aid to countries if they could not deliver on climate change.
"You can give aid to developing countries, but if you don't solve the climate problem it won't make any difference. They need to solve the climate problem or the aid won't be effective."
How are people protesting?
The majority of demonstrators are holding peaceful marches. Some have chosen to block roads with their bodies in an effort to stop traffic from entering Heiligendamm.
Others have drawn up action points they hope leaders will take note of, or petitions from different countries.
The majority are adamant that their protests are peaceful.
The Black Bloc, who include anarchists, wear black clothing and masks.
Campaigners on the ground say only a very small minority are involved in violence.
Why are people protesting against G8 itself?
Some people believe that the G8 is not a democratic method of making decisions that could affect the rest of the world, or that the countries involved are not effective in bringing about the right kind of change.
They want a more "democratic" approach - stemming from grassroots activism, rather than from the most powerful leaders in the world.
Block G8 is an umbrella of 125 groups organising a massive blockade against the summit.
Christoph Kleine, a spokesperson for the collective, said their protest is a "clear sign of our rejection of the G8 and our belief that the G8 is completely illegitimate.
"These are the governments of eight countries who think they can rule the world because they are the richest and most powerful. This is not democratic.
"We can see the result of domination by these countries - war, social injustice. They stand for the danger of climate change. They are the countries who are responsible for most of the emissions."
But other groups take a contrasting view and use the G8 summit to push their own agenda.
Tricia O'Rourke, from Oxfam, said: "The G8 have it within their power to end poverty. They can deliver on climate change. These are the people who can make a difference
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I dont really care that he was knighted or not, but, (call me cynical if you want) I think there is an underlying analagy here....as the original knights were christian crusaders taking the sword to islam, just as dear old Salman did with pen and paper, the knighthood plays out the physical concept Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Conditioned: Huh? What I meant was that when Europeans start to blow sh*t up when they're simply offended, then maybe I'll agree with you. ~Alistair
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Correct me if I'm wrong but don't G8 protestors come from all over the world and from different religious backgrounds?
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: The majority were European, as the G8 was held in Europe. When it was held in Canada or America, the protestors were predominantly from that region. Check out the G8 protestor's site. They claim to attract people from all over the world.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
posted
Muslims are Europeans too. Do I have to make that point a hundred times before you get it?
Oh...the cut and paste style is a marked improvement on the predictable, monosyllabic grunts you usually offer as an argument. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ''...but to be knighted for expressing an opinion when you have had to be protected from people who hate you for it is offensive.''
There is no doubt that this award served a political message, as well as an acknowledgment for literary excellence. Satanic Verses is a work of FICTION. Many people are offended that writers can't write a BOOK, without religious people screaming 'Blasphemy' and threatening to kill the author. If you don't like this - don't buy the book. What about the rights of all of those who aren't offended?
I would also like to add.....don't condem a book until you have read it. Many of those who have condemed it have never seen it let alone read it..... Posts: 290 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Khomeini's "fatwa" imposing the death sentence, later lifted by Tehran but still threatened by some Islamic groups, resulted in Mr Rushdie spending years in hiding under official British protection.
Khomeni is a pedophile... so he's the one who should have beed sentenced to death when he was live Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ''...but to be knighted for expressing an opinion when you have had to be protected from people who hate you for it is offensive.''
There is no doubt that this award served a political message, as well as an acknowledgment for literary excellence. Satanic Verses is a work of FICTION. Many people are offended that writers can't write a BOOK, without religious people screaming 'Blasphemy' and threatening to kill the author. If you don't like this - don't buy the book. What about the rights of all of those who aren't offended?
I would also like to add.....don't condem a book until you have read it. Many of those who have condemed it have never seen it let alone read it.....
Valerie, sadly, this is only too true.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Muslims are Europeans too. Do I have to make that point a hundred times before you get it?
Oh...the cut and paste style is a marked improvement on the predictable, monosyllabic grunts you usually offer as an argument.
Where did she state or imply that there are no European Muslims? I believe she is one!
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
posted
The debate was about Rushdie's knighthood and reaction to it. Hibbah and I broadly agreed about censorship being a global issue. I certainly didn't suggest that violence is a preserve of any specific group. Hibbah and Alsitair debated this issue further. Hibbah then used the G8 protests as an example of Europeans protesting, as opposed to Muslim groups. This seemed like a strange thing to say, given that Muslims are European too. I asked her about this. Hibbah then replied:
''The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.''
So, clarification there and agreement. Quit bumping your gums without justification. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Hibbah hey why not leave your rich parents home and your western education and priviliges and move back to your roots in Pakistan. Hey maybe even join up in Afghanistan, they need new recruits! I love when second generation Pakistani's living the life in the west get all suicide bomberish over a cartoon
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Hibbah and Alsitair debated this issue further. Hibbah then used the G8 protests as an example of Europeans protesting, as opposed to Muslim groups. This seemed like a strange thing to say, given that Muslims are European too. I asked her about this. Hibbah then replied:
''The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.''
So, clarification there and agreement. Quit
Nice try and it would've worked had you not replied to her with this:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: The majority were European, as the G8 was held in Europe. When it was held in Canada or America, the protestors were predominantly from that region. Check out the G8 protestor's site. They claim to attract people from all over the world.
And then posted an article and highlighted the following :
"Q&A: Who are the G8 protesters?"
"There are a broad range of groups rallying, from environmental and anti-poverty campaigners to anti-globalisation and multi-faith groups, with one overarching common interest: social justice."
"There are a wide range of ages and nationalities attending rallies around the G8 summit."
posted
...and you are a trilling tranny of a troll. You are so hate-filled that you strain to make points which only (and laughably) serve to demonstrate your own hopeless prejudices.
Read back. Hibbah said, ''Find me something Europeans actually *CARE* about and they're willing to get up and rant about. How about the G8 summit?..''
This is why I pointed out that Muslims are also Europeans...and are as likely to participate in G8 protests as the next European. Using a group that included Muslims seemed ineffective, as a contrast.
I've been very patient with your lack of ability to follow a simple argument sequence. Pat, pat...you've moved up a teeny fraction from the inane drivel, you usually reply with. Predictably it goes like this:
1) You're stupid
2) You're not entertaining
3) **** you.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ...and you are a trilling tranny of a troll. You are so hate-filled that you strain to make points which only (and laughably) serve to demonstrate your own hopeless prejudices.
Read back. Hibbah said, ''Find me something Europeans actually *CARE* about and they're willing to get up and rant about. How about the G8 summit?..''
This is why I pointed out that Muslims are also Europeans...and are as likely to participate in G8 protests as the next European. Using a group that included Muslims seemed ineffective, as a contrast.
I've been very patient with your lack of ability to follow a simple argument sequence. Pat, pat...you've moved up a teeny fraction from the inane drivel, you usually reply with. Predictably it goes like this:
1) You're stupid
2) You're not entertaining
3) **** you.
You are stupid In this case you are ever so slightly entertaining. **** you
Posts: 194 | Registered: May 2007
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There ya go....light touch paper, stand back - and watch the damp squib that is Auto's attempt at sarcasm try to take off. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Apparently Elahi figures that as long as they've got this rage all worked up, why not expand the victims' list?
Pakistani official: Let's kill Benazir Bhutto along with Rushdie
LAHORE: Punjab Chief Minister, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi has said that Benazir Bhutto is also guilty like blasphemer Salman Rushdie.
[...]
He said that Benazir, who remained Prime Minister of Pakistan twice, has forgotten the name of Islam while living abroad and is disturbed for support of blasphemer Salman Rushdi.
He said that those who are supporting blasphemer Salman Rushdi are not only enemy of Pakistan and its masses but are also enemy of Islam and Muslim Ummah.
He said that the people cannot tolerate blasphemer Salman Rushdi and his supporters. He said that the people will never support such party which is against our country, religion and people.
He said that the future of democracy is safe in the country and the forthcoming elections would be transparent and fair.
Especially if they kill off those pesky blasphemers. Then the future of democracy in Pakistan will be exceedingly bright.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by chiselmonkey: Hibbah hey why not leave your rich parents home and your western education and priviliges and move back to your roots in Pakistan. Hey maybe even join up in Afghanistan, they need new recruits! I love when second generation Pakistani's living the life in the west get all suicide bomberish over a cartoon
Such a lame comment. What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Thanks for resorting to racist remarks when you have nothing intelligent to say. :)I'll be sure to ignore you from now on- thanks for letting me know you're a douche from the get go. Jesus Loves You.
SayWhatYouSee-
I used Europeans because Conditioned suggested that Europeans don't act violently in protest. If you have a problem with the broad category of europeans, you can take it up with the root of the argument.
In my opinion, My point was effective. The debate was not only about muslims as individiuals, but it was about the "muslim world" vs the "western world": i.e. europe is included in the western world. While I'm well aware that there are Muslims Europe, it should be understood that when we're talking about Europeans as a whole, we're talking about non-muslims for the most part. Even if some european countries have large Muslim Minorities- they're still the minority.
And while I don't have statistics on what religious affiliation people have that decided to attend the G8 summit protests, because of their location, and because muslims are minority, im pretty sure its fair to say MOST protestors are not Muslim.
And I also said that the protestors come from a mulitude of faiths- point being that idiotic violence does not come from one religion or one people.
My point. The G8 protestors are not protesting for Islam. They are protesting for something that has nothing to do with religion- and they act violently. Violent mobs are not simply a Muslim phenomena, as Conditioned suggested.
Also, the violence I was specifically thinking about occurred in Europe- probabaly because these are the more recent examples.
I also mentioned violence committed by Europeans for political reasons (a french farmer bull dozed a mcdonalds down- and I can tell you for sure he wasnt a Muslim since he became a politician later). But apparently those french farmers go off everytime the EU tries to reform the CAP as well.
but either way, I dont think you and the other person should bother arguing about this. I was just trying to point out how its idiotic to suggest that Muslims dont have the right to respect because they are "violent" as oppossed to the Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Apparently Elahi figures that as long as they've got this rage all worked up, why not expand the victims' list?
Pakistani official: Let's kill Benazir Bhutto along with Rushdie
LAHORE: Punjab Chief Minister, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi has said that Benazir Bhutto is also guilty like blasphemer Salman Rushdie.
[...]
He said that Benazir, who remained Prime Minister of Pakistan twice, has forgotten the name of Islam while living abroad and is disturbed for support of blasphemer Salman Rushdi.
He said that those who are supporting blasphemer Salman Rushdi are not only enemy of Pakistan and its masses but are also enemy of Islam and Muslim Ummah.
He said that the people cannot tolerate blasphemer Salman Rushdi and his supporters. He said that the people will never support such party which is against our country, religion and people.
He said that the future of democracy is safe in the country and the forthcoming elections would be transparent and fair.
Especially if they kill off those pesky blasphemers. Then the future of democracy in Pakistan will be exceedingly bright.
the future of Pakistans democracy is in the shyt hole thanks to the United States "War on terror" and support of a Military dictator who makes people dissapear, shuts off transmission of the media, kicks out Supreme Court Justices who call him out on his shadyness, and has raised cencorship up to the roof.
I think the anti-democratic actions of the Ruler of the country are a little more important than the crap coming out of some ministers mouth.
And since you like to play dumb, maybe I'll let you in on a little secret- condemning Benazir is SUCH a blatant political move- since she condemned Musharraf for all this Justice hoo ha, hes been out to get her. Like i said, pockets are lined.
Posts: 140 | From: TX | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sambula: ''...but either way, I dont think you and the other person should bother arguing about this. I was just trying to point out how its idiotic to suggest that Muslims dont have the right to respect because they are "violent" as oppossed to the Europeans.Peace''
Sambula, we certainly aren't at odds on the above points. Respect should be afforded to all people, in equal measure. I hope that you can see that I was pointing out that Muslims are as European as the next... European, albeit that they are a minority group. This doesn't mean that they should have lesser rights. Peace. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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