posted
CAIRO, Egypt - The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said Thursday the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide.
The comments by Muslim Brotherhood chief Mohammed Mahdi Akef — made on the heels of his group's strong showing in Egyptian parliamentary elections — echoed remarks made recently by Iran's hard-line president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which sparked international outrage.
"Western democracies have slammed all those who don't see eye to eye with the Zionists regarding the myth of the Holocaust," Akef wrote in a weekly article meant as a directive to the group's followers on its official Web site.
Akef's hard-line rhetoric was in contrast to the moderate tone the Brotherhood took in November and December parliamentary elections, during which it played down its calls for implementing Shariah, or Islamic law, in Egypt and instead touted itself as a pro-democracy movement.
The outlawed Brotherhood surprised many with its election showing, winning 88 seats in the legislature — about 20 percent of the body — and establishing itself as the top opposition bloc.
In his article, Akef lashed out at the United States and other Western powers for what he described as a campaign against Islam.
"These words are meant to expose the false American rule which has become a nightmare of a new world order," Akef said.
"I am making these comments to all free people in the world, aiming to wake up the conscience in humanity. The sword of democracy is only unsheathed against those who raise the flag of Islam."
Similar comments by Ahmadinejad earlier this month sparked an international outcry. The Iranian president called the Holocaust — in which an estimated 6 million Jews were killed — a "myth" and said Europeans have used it to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.
He also said Israel should be "wiped off the map."
Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks.
It was not clear why Akef made the remarks, but his article was full of criticism of Western democracy, which he said "was drawn up by the sons of Zion."
Akef did not take a question about his statement when telephoned by The Associated Press.
But a top Brotherhood leader said the group is disenchanted by the U.S. policies in the Mideast, including President Bush's reform plans for the region.
"In fact, the Americans appeared to be hypocrites about the issue of reform," Essam el-Aryan said. "They maintain silence when the (election's) results were not favorable to them."
In an interview with the AP last month, Akef promised that the group will not use its new leverage in the parliament to try to change Egypt's foreign policy, including its 1979 peace treaty with Israel. He said the group will not push for a fight with Israel.
His remarks seemed to be designed to allay Western concerns about the organization's newfound strength.
Following the elections, Akef promised that Brotherhood parliamentarians would represent all Egyptians — Muslims, Coptic Christians, men and women — in an attempt to calm widespread fear of the group among Christians, women and secularists.
But in his Thursday article, Akef said the group will press to implement "the correct teachings of Islam."
"You Brothers, you are the guardians of Shariah. Your main concern should be the heritage of Shariah, which you uphold," he wrote.
The Brotherhood calls for implementing Islamic law but is vague about what that means. Many skeptics accuse it of using a moderate tone in public while backing hard-line stances in private that it will implement if it takes power through elections.
Others contend its more radical statements are an attempt to play to Egyptians who resent what they see as the United States' bias toward Israel.
The Brotherhood, Egypt's oldest Islamist group and the biggest opposition bloc, was outlawed in 1954, but it fielded 150 candidates who ran as independents to get around the ban. The organization claims it could have won an additional 30 seats were it not for violent intervention by security forces.
posted
Hmm. I like the style of the man in the background. Some of those outfits are quite well thought out. Whats the uniform of?
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
The MB has been a strong opposition group here since 40's i think , but most of them use religion to get a seat in the parliament , i remember a demonstration done by some youth who belong to MB they were saying something like " alla akbar allah akbar , Islam is the solution , elect"..." in the next parliament" ! plus i'd agree more with something like "Kefaya" http://harakamasria.org/ , which is more liberal ! i think egypt would be more better in a liberal multi-cultured form ,not a religious one .
Posts: 11 | From: egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Many people seem to think if they play down the veracity of the Holocaust, it will somehow magically make people focus on the slaughter of innocent Palestinians. But I fail to see the causal connection there.
If anything, when people deny an atrocity that is extraordinarily well-documented, it truly erodes any credibility they have....so that *anything* that comes out of their mouths must be lies. Sociopaths or imbeciles, take your pick. And who wants to willingly help, follow, or believe them?
The atrocities of the Holocaust are well-documented by many different organizations...including the Nazis themselves. A lot of what we learned about the systematic extermination of Jews and other minorities were official Nazi documents....weekly and monthly extermination reports and the like. Documented medical experiments on Jews to see if they could turn their eye color from brown to blue by injecting dye through a needle into their eyes.
Did *both* the Nazis and the Jews make these things up?
One of the things that bothers me the most about the Holocaust is how brainwashed Nazis became to believe that Jews were nothing but animals...This attitude is of course not unique to Nazis....it reminds me too well of how white people in the US rationalized slavery of blacks, thinking them less-than-human.
To validate the atrocities of the Holocaust, to recognize it for the evil it was, is to validate *all* human suffering, past and present. And we must *all* work very hard to end the tragedies that occur today, and somehow prevent the tragedies that *will* occur tomorrow. But forgetting or worse, denying, that these things happened *only* facilitates their happening again. And again.
This picture from the Harry S. Truman library shows sheets of human skin with tattoos on it, shrunken Jewish heads, and a lampshade made from Jewish skin.....all souvenirs collected by Nazi officials and their families.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I hope his rephrasal and explanation of what he said will reach media ! It's ironic how quick was media in taking few of his words and spreading them and didn't bother with his reply.
Anyway the word ostoora as Esal El arian a leader in MB explained which is translated myth doesn't necessary mean it was unreal but it's common word sometimes people use to refer to famous things. What Akef wanted to stress on is how the western democracy is one sided with those who don't see eye to eye with them, when a french intellectual questioned the number of holocaust victims he was prosecuted and so others while nothing is said about persecution of other people, The MB doesn't negate or even question the holocaust itself because it's a western thing they have no hand in but only questioned the double standard of the western democracy, this is mainly what I understood from his message however his message was lost ...Shows how much the west is obsessed, brainwashed and controlled making a taboo out of history!
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Many people seem to think if they play down the veracity of the Holocaust, it will somehow magically make people focus on the slaughter of innocent Palestinians. But I fail to see the causal connection there.
If anything, when people deny an atrocity that is extraordinarily well-documented, it truly erodes any credibility they have....so that *anything* that comes out of their mouths must be lies. Sociopaths or imbeciles, take your pick. And who wants to willingly help, follow, or believe them?
The atrocities of the Holocaust are well-documented by many different organizations...including the Nazis themselves. A lot of what we learned about the systematic extermination of Jews and other minorities were official Nazi documents....weekly and monthly extermination reports and the like. Documented medical experiments on Jews to see if they could turn their eye color from brown to blue by injecting dye through a needle into their eyes.
Did *both* the Nazis and the Jews make these things up?
One of the things that bothers me the most about the Holocaust is how brainwashed Nazis became to believe that Jews were nothing but animals...This attitude is of course not unique to Nazis....it reminds me too well of how white people in the US rationalized slavery of blacks, thinking them less-than-human.
To validate the atrocities of the Holocaust, to recognize it for the evil it was, is to validate *all* human suffering, past and present. And we must *all* work very hard to end the tragedies that occur today, and somehow prevent the tragedies that *will* occur tomorrow. But forgetting or worse, denying, that these things happened *only* facilitates their happening again. And again.
I was wondering how to put my thoughts into words but you pretty much expressed my sentiments. Thanks for this post!
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: I hope his rephrasal and explanation of what he said will reach media ! It's ironic how quick was media in taking few of his words and spreading them and didn't bother with his reply.
Anyway the word ostoora as Esal El arian a leader in MB explained which is translated myth doesn't necessary mean it was unreal but it's common word sometimes people use to refer to famous things. What Akef wanted to stress on is how the western democracy is one sided with those who don't see eye to eye with them, when a french intellectual questioned the number of holocaust victims he was prosecuted and so others while nothing is said about persecution of other people, The MB doesn't negate or even question the holocaust itself because it's a western thing they have no hand in but only questioned the double standard of the western democracy, this is mainly what I understood from his message however his message was lost ...Shows how much the west is obsessed, brainwashed and controlled making a taboo out of history!
This is insane!
Assalamum alaykum Troubles!
Can you write word "ostoora" in Arabic so I can look it up? It always saddens me how much does get distorted or misrepresented in translation. So often translators write what they want to hear or their interpretation of what someone meant, rather than their actual words.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: I hope his rephrasal and explanation of what he said will reach media ! It's ironic how quick was media in taking few of his words and spreading them and didn't bother with his reply.
Anyway the word ostoora as Esal El arian a leader in MB explained which is translated myth doesn't necessary mean it was unreal but it's common word sometimes people use to refer to famous things. What Akef wanted to stress on is how the western democracy is one sided with those who don't see eye to eye with them, when a french intellectual questioned the number of holocaust victims he was prosecuted and so others while nothing is said about persecution of other people, The MB doesn't negate or even question the holocaust itself because it's a western thing they have no hand in but only questioned the double standard of the western democracy, this is mainly what I understood from his message however his message was lost ...Shows how much the west is obsessed, brainwashed and controlled making a taboo out of history!
This is insane!
Assalamum alaykum Troubles!
Can you write word "ostoora" in Arabic so I can look it up? It always saddens me how much does get distorted or misrepresented in translation. So often translators write what they want to hear or their interpretation of what someone meant, rather than their actual words.
literal meaning is not very important as Akef's language is modern arabic like that of our newspapers. The literal meaning comes from the verb "Sattar" سطر means wrote down , the word is meantioned in Qur'an in plural "Asateer أساطير " if you check Surah An'am verse 25 for example , It was mentioned as asateer al awaleen" أساطير الأولين" al awaleen means the old, previous, ancient... so ostoorah can be translated as a story, and myth as well in arabic but speaking of modern language, it's very common to see our newspaper calling specific actor "ostoora" instead of great" it has different meanings but the point that saddened me is when someone write a message and stress on it by giving example and find everyone went to another direction forgetting about the intended message of the post... Now we are talking about the holocaust denial when all he wanted to say is how bias the western democracy it's when they prosecute anyone with different opinion like the one who questioned number of holocaust victims and call other who don't see eye to eye what they see as terrorists..I think the recent reaction just proved his point again! once the west see word holocaust and a question they act like robots condemning everyone, such a holocaust paranoia!
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I understand your point and I also think that the Jewish publicity machine has done a very good job on the holocaust, to the extent that it has been blown out of proportion in terms of its importance in world history...and before anyone jumps on me, I am not denying it, but just saying it is not the only disaster that has happened to a group of people in the recent past, many other groups of people have suffered too just as much if not in some cases maybe even more, but more silently. And many others also suffered along with the Jews, but that is only mentioned as a "by the way..." Everybody else's suffering is minimized and the Jewish suffering is maximized. Of course we all feel sorry for anyone who suffers persecution, but the Jews are capitalizing on this so much to the extent that it has become almost a sacred subject that cannot be discussed, except in hallowed tones, unlike any other disaster that has befallen the world.
The word "Asateer أساطير " seems to be better translated as "legend" than "myth", because it implies that it is a story that is based on truth but has been exaggerated (in the detail or importance) over time, rather than one that as no basis of truth. And this same translation can also be applied to actors or other types of artists too.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
From my dictionary, yes, that seems to be true as the other possible translations for خرافة include "superstitions, fable, fairy tale", but there is an overlap between the two and both translations are given for the two words.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: I hope his rephrasal and explanation of what he said will reach media ! It's ironic how quick was media in taking few of his words and spreading them and didn't bother with his reply.
Anyway the word ostoora as Esal El arian a leader in MB explained which is translated myth doesn't necessary mean it was unreal but it's common word sometimes people use to refer to famous things. What Akef wanted to stress on is how the western democracy is one sided with those who don't see eye to eye with them, when a french intellectual questioned the number of holocaust victims he was prosecuted and so others while nothing is said about persecution of other people, The MB doesn't negate or even question the holocaust itself because it's a western thing they have no hand in but only questioned the double standard of the western democracy, this is mainly what I understood from his message however his message was lost ...Shows how much the west is obsessed, brainwashed and controlled making a taboo out of history!
This is insane!
Troubles, I'm the first to admit I know *no* Arabic and that things often get mis-quoted in translation. And if this story is untrue or slanted improperly by English translation, I'd really like to know.
And I just wish people would get away from the Holocaust as a topic of debate in current politics/foreign policy/war.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
is there anyway jews and muslims can tone down the political retoric till "after" I vist eygpt?
Posts: 229 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Don't think there are too many Jews in Egypt...so all the rhetoric seems to be virtual. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Assalamum alaykum Troubles!
Can you write word "ostoora" in Arabic so I can look it up? It always saddens me how much does get distorted or misrepresented in translation. So often translators write what they want to hear or their interpretation of what someone meant, rather than their actual words.
No I think its the case of native speakers taking advantage of non-Arabi speaking usernames in order to confuse us with the facts.
In otherwords delusion. AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN.....
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Snoozin, just replied to the same topic in the "Living in Egypt" section.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Egypt's Brotherhood leader says Holocaust did happen
Sat Dec 24, 8:22 AM ET
The leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood on Saturday said that when he called the Holocaust a myth this week, he did not mean to say it never happened.
The office of Mohamed Mahdi Akef, the "general guide" of the large Islamist opposition group, said in a statement that his remark on Thursday was meant merely to make a point about the West's attitude toward democracy and the Palestinians.
In a message on Thursday, Akef said: "Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned.
He cited as evidence of Western intolerance the cases of French writer Roger Garaudy, who was convicted of questioning the Holocaust in France in 1998, and British historian David Irving, who faces similar charges in Austria next month.
But on Saturday, his office said: "Some media gave this a meaning which he (Akef) did not intend (and read it as) a denial that the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis during World War Two happened. The fact is that he did not deny that it took place."
"He (Akef) brought up the case of Garaudy ... to contrast it with the West's disregard for the victims of the Zionist state and its daily crimes against the Palestinians," it said.
"He cited that as evidence of the West's policy of a double standard and of the democracy of exclusion which it practices on a wide scale," the statement added.
Some 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945.
Akef's group won 88 of the Egyptian parliament's 454 seats in elections in November and December, making the Brotherhood the largest opposition group in the chamber.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad caused international outrage this month when he called the Holocaust a myth and suggested Israel be moved to Germany or Alaska. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051224/wl_nm/egypt_brotherhood_holocaust_dc_ 1&printer=1;_ylt=AjU.1iuWRy8UtsdvBdIBXHdn.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: If anything, when people deny an atrocity that is extraordinarily well-documented,
and it cudn't make anymore sense than how newcomer put it:
quote: and I also think that the Jewish publicity machine has done a very good job on the holocaust, to the extent that it has been blown out of proportion in terms of its importance in world history...and before anyone jumps on me, I am not denying it, but just saying it is not the only disaster that has happened to a group of people in the recent past, many other groups of people have suffered too just as much if not in some cases maybe even more, [b]but more silently.
it's only unfortunate, susan, that ur poor mind was fed with the american education curriculum [& we know who runs 2 dat z***] all these years....
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Dalia:
quote: So what have you been taught at school?
apart from history lessons [which was BS], all was good... apart from the fact in science & maths lesson they replaced everything that was arabic to latin origin .....
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: it's only unfortunate, susan, that ur poor mind was fed with the american education curriculum [& we know who runs 2 dat z***] all these years....
Strange. I agree with her although I haven't been through the American education system. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
All I want to do is to practice my holy book!
Islam means peace. I can prove it with this dagger.
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: CAIRO, Egypt - The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said Thursday the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide.
The comments by Muslim Brotherhood chief Mohammed Mahdi Akef — made on the heels of his group's strong showing in Egyptian parliamentary elections — echoed remarks made recently by Iran's hard-line president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which sparked international outrage.
"Western democracies have slammed all those who don't see eye to eye with the Zionists regarding the myth of the Holocaust," Akef wrote in a weekly article meant as a directive to the group's followers on its official Web site.
Akef's hard-line rhetoric was in contrast to the moderate tone the Brotherhood took in November and December parliamentary elections, during which it played down its calls for implementing Shariah, or Islamic law, in Egypt and instead touted itself as a pro-democracy movement.
The outlawed Brotherhood surprised many with its election showing, winning 88 seats in the legislature — about 20 percent of the body — and establishing itself as the top opposition bloc.
In his article, Akef lashed out at the United States and other Western powers for what he described as a campaign against Islam.
"These words are meant to expose the false American rule which has become a nightmare of a new world order," Akef said.
"I am making these comments to all free people in the world, aiming to wake up the conscience in humanity. The sword of democracy is only unsheathed against those who raise the flag of Islam."
Similar comments by Ahmadinejad earlier this month sparked an international outcry. The Iranian president called the Holocaust — in which an estimated 6 million Jews were killed — a "myth" and said Europeans have used it to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.
He also said Israel should be "wiped off the map."
Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks.
It was not clear why Akef made the remarks, but his article was full of criticism of Western democracy, which he said "was drawn up by the sons of Zion."
Akef did not take a question about his statement when telephoned by The Associated Press.
But a top Brotherhood leader said the group is disenchanted by the U.S. policies in the Mideast, including President Bush's reform plans for the region.
"In fact, the Americans appeared to be hypocrites about the issue of reform," Essam el-Aryan said. "They maintain silence when the (election's) results were not favorable to them."
In an interview with the AP last month, Akef promised that the group will not use its new leverage in the parliament to try to change Egypt's foreign policy, including its 1979 peace treaty with Israel. He said the group will not push for a fight with Israel.
His remarks seemed to be designed to allay Western concerns about the organization's newfound strength.
Following the elections, Akef promised that Brotherhood parliamentarians would represent all Egyptians — Muslims, Coptic Christians, men and women — in an attempt to calm widespread fear of the group among Christians, women and secularists.
But in his Thursday article, Akef said the group will press to implement "the correct teachings of Islam."
"You Brothers, you are the guardians of Shariah. Your main concern should be the heritage of Shariah, which you uphold," he wrote.
The Brotherhood calls for implementing Islamic law but is vague about what that means. Many skeptics accuse it of using a moderate tone in public while backing hard-line stances in private that it will implement if it takes power through elections.
Others contend its more radical statements are an attempt to play to Egyptians who resent what they see as the United States' bias toward Israel.
The Brotherhood, Egypt's oldest Islamist group and the biggest opposition bloc, was outlawed in 1954, but it fielded 150 candidates who ran as independents to get around the ban. The organization claims it could have won an additional 30 seats were it not for violent intervention by security forces.
Iran's foreign minister Manouchehr Mottaki said Friday that remarks made earlier this week by the country's president that the Nazi mass murder of Jews during World War II was a "myth" was the official Iranian government's position on the issue. -------------
Here is a wonderful chance for Israel to make a total fool out of Ahmadinejad. All they have to do is produce the provable facts that back the claim of an officially government sanctioned Nazi program that exterminated 6 million people targeted against just the Jewish people, and the whole matter is closed. No confessions extracted under torture allowed, of course.
Posts: 1074 | From: Menufia, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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it's only unfortunate, susan, that ur poor mind was fed with the american education curriculum [& we know who runs 2 dat z***] all these years....
[/QUOTE]
I don't know about you, but my education has not been limited to my country of origin.
And this is the last time I will repeat myself. To acknowledge the Holocaust occurred does not somehow minimize the suffering others have undergone.
What do you know, Kamal, about the Armenian genocide at the turn of the 20th century? I never hear *anybody* ever talking about that one, and it was less than 100 years ago. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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it's only unfortunate, susan, that ur poor mind was fed with the american education curriculum [& we know who runs 2 dat z***] all these years....
I don't know about you, but my education has not been limited to my country of origin.
And this is the last time I will repeat myself. To acknowledge the Holocaust occurred does not somehow minimize the suffering others have undergone.
What do you know, Kamal, about the Armenian genocide at the turn of the 20th century? I never hear *anybody* ever talking about that one, and it was less than 100 years ago. [/QUOTE]
when people don't have anything credible to say to us (Americans) they immediately attack our 'limited knowledge' of world events or education. Posts: 1074 | From: Menufia, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I dont think American have limited Knowledge at all
in fact ,the problem is, they have "too much" knowledge....
I dont think I said limted knowledge at all....read again Susan just assumed I said that..... (see too much education...)
and especially in developed world, the education given are very precise, controlled...they dont have much option to see any other perspective...
Hormeb is a classic example....
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snoozon:
quote: And this is the last time I will repeat myself. To acknowledge the Holocaust occurred does not somehow minimize the suffering others have undergone.
Again I dont think the issue here was that the holocaust made other events "minimal"....
The holocaust event has been "over-blown", and way out of propotion....an the point was why?
If these people dont think it didnt occur, their entitled to their opinion, as ignorant they may be....or for whatever reason.... When that Prince Harry wore the Hitler thing, the whole media attacked him.... why cant they just be left alone...
why
I mean, thats like someone wearing an American Army custom..... Would the whole media turn its head and ask for an apology?
Of course not, cos the jews aint being tortured and humilated in Iraq, are they Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: I dont think American have limited Knowledge at all
in fact ,the problem is, they have "too much" knowledge....
I dont think I said limted knowledge at all....read again Susan just assumed I said that..... (see too much education...)
*You* are the one who said I had a *poor mind.* (see above). What else should I gather from that description?
Dictionary entry for *Poor.*
poor
adj 1: moderate to inferior in quality; [syn: mediocre, second-rate] 2: deserving or inciting pity; 3: having little money or few possessions; "deplored the gap between rich and poor countries"; "the proverbial poor artist living in a garret" [ant: rich] 4: characterized by or indicating lack of money; 5: low in degree; "expectations were poor" 6: badly supplied with desirable qualities or substances; 7: not sufficient to meet a need; [syn: inadequate, short] 8: unsatisfactory; 9: yielding little by great labor;
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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maybe you do, maybe you dont, i dont really know... i only said it cos i really hate it when people just blindly say stuff without knowing, why!
before this thread, have you asked your self why what i asked in the previous thread, i.e when someone denyies it or something..... you said it *well documented*...why?
quote:If these people dont think it didnt occur, their entitled to their opinion, as ignorant they may be....or for whatever reason.... When that Prince Harry wore the Hitler thing, the whole media attacked him.... why cant they just be left alone...
why
I mean, thats like someone wearing an American Army custom..... Would the whole media turn its head and ask for an apology?
and there is no doubt z**** control US.....it's not debatable, it is a fact... american (people) being the powerful nation, would have no interest what so ever to protect a small tiny country in the mid east, send their hard-earned tax money to build a barrier...
the support occupied-palestin gets is only possible from the american people if they are fed BS propaganda, media, education, etc....
I asked Hormenb on the other thread, why support them.... he came up with some non-sense reason...here...Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Kiss heaven ...I wish the education system in Egypt is as good as the American system ...we would have been a lot better...I see no reason in attacking everything that is American ...
Try to open your mind and your heart and you will learn a lot more ...so Just read and think and be honest with yourself and you will see that not everything that is American is evil...there are a lot of great things about America and the American People ... and if you put yourself on the offensive side you will never learn...
quote:Originally posted by Tigerman: Try to open your mind and your heart and you will learn a lot more ...so Just read and think and be honest with yourself and you will see that not everything that is American is evil...there are a lot of great things about America and the American People ... and if you put yourself on the offensive side you will never learn...
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: When that Prince Harry wore the Hitler thing, the whole media attacked him.... why cant they just be left alone...
why
I mean, thats like someone wearing an American Army custom.....
Wearing the swastika is NOT the same as wearing an American Army uniform!
The swastika has become a worldwide symbol for the systematic killing of millions of people. Wearing it as a joke is completely inappropriate, especially by a person who stands in the public spotlight. The media were right in criticizing him.
Whatever one's stance on American foreign policy – the uniform of the American army does not hold the same symbolic meaning as a swastika.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: I always said that they are the next Taliban
I don't know although I disagree with them at many points but I don't think they can be taliban at all, it is my opnion
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: before this thread, have you asked your self why what i asked in the previous thread, i.e when someone denyies it or something..... you said it *well documented*...why?
I gave you an entire library of photographic evidence of the Holocaust. For your own eyes to see. It's been well-documented by individual accounts, as well as evidence put on at the Nuremberg trials. It's been documented in Nazi business records -- e.g. how many people they killed on a particular day. It's been documented in the Nazi medical records, the torturous experiments conducted on prisoners of war. It's been documented in personal diaries like Anne Frank's. It's been documented by the German government. It's been documented by the British government, the US government, and probably others. You can go see for yourself and tour some of the concentration camps.
When I give you these obvious answers or items of proof, you ignore them. I assume you disagree with them, but you never comment. Then you come up with these off-the-wall questions, like asking how something is *well-documented.* *After* I've given you documentation. Did you take a look at those pictures? Should I post them here so you don't have to put the energy into actually clicking on the link? I was trying to spare the forum the gore they would see. And you ask over and over and over.
I ask *you* to provide proof to the contrary, and you always just come back at me with a question. Never offering your own proof. I find your English difficult to read, and I thought for a long time something was getting lost in translation. Too difficult for me anymore. It's an exercise in futility to debate with you, so I'm done.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: and there is no doubt z**** control US.....it's not debatable, it is a fact... american (people) being the powerful nation, would have no interest what so ever to protect a small tiny country in the mid east, send their hard-earned tax money to build a barrier...
Watch this (in its entirety) if you dare. Pay very close attention to the fact that American support for the Palestinians fell to 1% or 2% during the Second Intifada. We (Americans)cannot stomach the idea of suicide bombing. Say *whatever* you want about American violence and unjust wars and it could be the truth, but if you want or need American opinion to support the Palestinians, the suicide bombings *must* stop. And now that Arafat is gone, the American people are becoming more and more critical of Israel because Abbas seems to have a good head on his shoulders, searching for peace rather than victory.
Every time you say the US is under zionist control, you sound ignorant and paranoid. The *worst* you can accuse the Americans of is being apathetic. Which is much more true than any type of Zionist control. Because truth be told, most Americans would tell you they don't give a flying fcuk about Israel.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I didnt ask how it is documented, and I cudnt care less how they documented...I dont care how much proof there is, nor did I say it didnt happend, or did happen. Frankly I dont care....
I just deleted a whole load of crap i wrote...im getttin kinda bored with this holocaust non-sense...
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia: ]Wearing the swastika is NOT the same as wearing an American Army uniform!
The swastika has become a worldwide symbol for the systematic killing of millions of people. Wearing it as a joke is completely inappropriate, especially by a person who stands in the public spotlight. The media were right in criticizing him.
Whatever one's stance on American foreign policy – the uniform of the American army does not hold the same symbolic meaning as a swastika. [/QB]
You damn right....
american comes no where near.... a million times worse... it makes me sick just thinkin about their retarded, lying behavior.....
at least the nazi werent so deicetful, and hiding the truth... God knows what those animals are doing in Iraq and what else is hiding in the pentagon how disgusting...all in the name of freedom, democracy and whatever else comes out of the devil's mouth...
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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Your friend on that website, decided not to make the Window media player link not to work...so if you want u can show me which part of the script ur reffering too...
quote: but if you want or need American opinion to support the Palestinians, the suicide bombings *must* stop.
Who's asking for american's support..... All they want it American and Isrealis outta there... there no reason for you to be there....
quote:
And now that Arafat is gone, the American people are becoming more and more critical of Israel because Abbas seems to have a good head on his shoulders, searching for peace rather than victory.
Arafat, Farafat...who cares....funny how he had the money to go all the way to france to be treated....not only that, wasnt he a threat, or wasnt there threat for him...... no one cares..,, american & z*** were done playin with him....now they got another muppet...sorrry puppet...
quote: Every time you say the US is under zionist control, you sound ignorant and paranoid. The *worst* you can accuse the Americans of is being apathetic. Which is much more true than any type of Zionist control. Because truth be told, most Americans would tell you they don't give a flying fcuk about Israel. [/QB]
[/quote]
Each time you try to deny it, it makes you doltish
I know the truth hurts your goverment doesnt care if you american dont give a flying about isreal... but its happy to give your money to them so keep on working to support democtratic govt Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: and there is no doubt z**** control US.....it's not debatable, it is a fact... american (people) being the powerful nation, would have no interest what so ever to protect a small tiny country in the mid east, send their hard-earned tax money to build a barrier...
Watch this (in its entirety) if you dare. Pay very close attention to the fact that American support for the Palestinians fell to 1% or 2% during the Second Intifada. We (Americans)cannot stomach the idea of suicide bombing.
Every time you say the US is under zionist control, you sound ignorant and paranoid. The *worst* you can accuse the Americans of is being apathetic. Which is much more true than any type of Zionist control. Because truth be told, most Americans would tell you they don't give a flying fcuk about Israel.
Not only does this video demonstrate that American foreign policy is dominated by Jewish interest groups but it also shows how stupid most Americans are.
The American people are impotent as is evident by the war on Afghanistan and Iraq. "American support" means nothing when you're nothing but slaves to a gang of thugs. There's nothing that you can do to change the US foreign policy.
The US support for Israel will change only when it begins to harm their interest. Only then will they stop listening to Jewish lobbyists.
The palestinisans are on thier own.
For your infromation the at least 90% of the content of that video was not in any way based on reality. The information and claims presented as facts were nothing short of myth. No wonder you people are so stupid, you're own media have brain washed to a point of no return.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: And now that Arafat is gone, the American people are becoming more and more critical of Israel because Abbas seems to have a good head on his shoulders, searching for peace rather than victory.
What do you know about Arafat? Not much I guarantee you, and as for Abbas..he's nothing but a sellout.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Say *whatever* you want about American violence and unjust wars and it could be the truth,
It could be the truth??????? IT IS THE TRUTH....not could be, IT IS THE TRUTHPosts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I didnt ask how it is documented, and I cudnt care less how they documented...I dont care how much proof there is, nor did I say it didnt happend, or did happen. Frankly I dont care....
I just deleted a whole load of crap i wrote...im getttin kinda bored with this holocaust non-sense...
That must be one of the most ignorant comments I've read in a long time!
I've been following your discussion with Snoozin and I can see exactly why she got frustrated with your way of arguing.
Your original statements about the holocaust were not correct and you were presented with enough evidence. But instead of getting into a meaningful and respectful discussion you chose to ignore every argument and then claim you can't be bothered. Plus you're getting personal and insulting.
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: american comes no where near.... a million times worse... it makes me sick just thinkin about their retarded, lying behavior.....
at least the nazi werent so deicetful, and hiding the truth... God knows what those animals are doing in Iraq and what else is hiding in the pentagon how disgusting...all in the name of freedom, democracy and whatever else comes out of the devil's mouth...
You keep coming on here bashing Americans all the time, yet you make it clear that you don't care about an atrocity if Muslims are not the victims.
You're saying above you don't care about the holocaust and you don't know much about it, yet you claim that what the Americans are doing is *far worse*. So how do you know? How can you compare if you admittedly know so little about what the Nazis did?
So the next time you bring up the Iraqis and the Palestinians we all tell you we can't be bothered and we don't give a ****. Now how would you like that???
ANY atrocity committed against ANY sort of people is a crime and should teach us a lesson, no matter whether the victims are Muslims, Jews, Christians or atheists ... denying and downplaying a crime does not help anyone ...
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Your original statements about the holocaust were not correct and you were presented with enough evidence.
what was my original statement? I said it may not be as "big" as it seems,,,
What is big and small to you? Is the serbian massacre bigger or smaller than the holocaust? What aboutt he American Atomic bomb in japan? is that big or small?What about the slave trade?
We cannot make accurate measurement of size of any such event no matter how much documentation u r able to provide. which sources are true, which are extageratting, which are belittling it, which sources are a complete lie.
As far as i can remeber. my point on this thread was that this jewish event has been blown out of propotion. what is correcnt and incorrect about that...
Im sure those who deny the holcuast have reasonable evidence to exaplian their denial, that is just as good as susans evidence. As i said im not too bothered about that, if u would like you can look for it your self.
quote: Plus you're getting personal and insulting.
there is no need for that. so kindly stay away from takine the topic to that...
quote: You keep coming on here bashing Americans all the time, yet you make it clear that you don't care about an atrocity if Muslims are not the victims.
right and wrong... my first and prime concern would be my brothers, the muslims...killing one man is like killing humanity... I do care, i do care about injustice.... and making an event bigger than it is, is not justice...
american bashing??? so america can physically, verbally, mentally, sexually, bash, rape young women, children, even men in iraq, under the name of "peace justice democracy" etc.... and i cannot "bash" them by some words
At least the nazi has some respect and werent as deictful as americans...they had "ethnic cleansing" going on.. as wrong as it may seem...they werent cowards, hypocritical as your buddies across the atlantic are .....
A post like this makes sense:
quote:Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [Not only does this video demonstrate that American foreign policy is dominated by Jewish interest groups but it also shows how stupid most Americans are.
The American people are impotent as is evident by the war on Afghanistan and Iraq. "American support" means nothing when you're nothing but slaves to a gang of thugs. There's nothing that you can do to change the US foreign policy.
The US support for Israel will change only when it begins to harm their interest. Only then will they stop listening to Jewish lobbyists.
The palestinisans are on thier own.
For your infromation the at least 90% of the content of that video was not in any way based on reality. The information and claims presented as facts were nothing short of myth. No wonder you people are so stupid, you're own media have brain washed to a point of no return.
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: Im sure those who deny the holcuast have reasonable evidence to exaplian their denial, that is just as good as susans evidence.
No, they don't and that was exactly the point some people were trying to make clear in this thread.
I find it very strange that you keep defending those who downplay or deny the holocaust although you're admitting that you don't know much about either side of the argument.
quote:As i said im not too bothered about that, if u would like you can look for it your self.
I don't need to look anything up, I know my country's history well enough.
quote:aand making an event bigger than it is, is not justice...
It's the other way around, Kamal – downplaying an event is not doing anyone justice. And that was exactly what this thread was about to begin with!
quote:american bashing??? so america can physically, verbally, mentally, sexually, bash, rape young women, children, even men in iraq, under the name of "peace justice democracy" etc.... and i cannot "bash" them by some words
Who said so?
I said this before but I think you didn't read it or chose to ignore it: I believe there is reason enough to criticize America's foreign policies and the US government. However, there's a difference between voicing criticism and overall bashing which is what you have done on several occasions.
quote:At least the nazi has some respect and werent as deictful as americans...they had "ethnic cleansing" going on.. as wrong as it may seem...they werent cowards, hypocritical as your buddies across the atlantic are .....
I'm getting the impression you don't know much at all about the Nazis because otherwise you wouldn't make such a statement. And there's no need for cheap rhetorics – Americans are not my "buddies".
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: It's the other way around, Kamal – downplaying an event is not doing anyone justice. And that was exactly what this thread was about to begin with!
no its the other way round....
quote: I'm getting the impression you don't know much at all about the Nazis
I think you know too much... it not about quantity,,,it about quality...
people who learn things from from "BS"ers... and dont question anything...will only ever know BS..
You know what is so funny.... Nazism still exist in america
the most "democratic liberal free" nation in the world... still has Hitler alive and well....
Hypocrites? Stupitidy?
Honestly, sometimes americans worry me.... seems like they been modernizing too much... new "modernized-slaves" of the z***** .. the worst thing is that they dont even know what going on...
too much BS information flowing over there...pple are getting confused...
AS i said last time on some thread,,ill sy it again.. the only way to defeat these Z***** is the expose and have knowledge about them....
quote: It's the other way around, Kamal – downplaying an event is not doing anyone justice. And that was exactly what this thread was about to begin with!
no its the other way round...
May I remind you that the first paragraph of this thread reads:
CAIRO, Egypt - The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said Thursday the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide.
So, yes, this thread is about downplaying the Holocaust.
The holocaust should be a reminder of where xenophobia, blind following and looking the other way can lead, why is it not possible to leave it at that? It should be a warning to humanity, just like every other atrocity committed on this earth should be a reminder and a warning to humanity! It was Mr. Ahmadinejad who brought this subject up in the first place when he delivered his well-calculated little speech. Because he has so much compassion for the Palestinians??? Certainly not! So who is instrumentalizing the holocaust for their own agenda?
quote: it not about quantity,,,it about quality...
people who learn things from from "BS"ers... and dont question anything...will only ever know BS..
Who are those "BSers", if I may ask?
In Germany we don't learn history from textbooks written by some Zionist conspirators if that's what you think. We learned about the holocaust from our parents, grandparents, granduncles and -aunts, friends' relatives and so on and so forth. Almost everyone has relatives or predecessors who were involved or affected by the Nazi regime in one way or the other.
Are you aware that many people who were affected by the holocaust have not spoken about it up to this day because what they survived was too horrible to put into words?
Yes, many Germans, even young ones still feel kind of guilty up to this day but not because – as you are suggesting – the Zionists of this world are brainwashing us into feeling guilty but because it's a part of our very recent history.
And are you suggesting all Germans who shared their knowledge about the holocaust are "BSers"? With all respect, Kamal, I find it very insulting that you come here and lecture me about my own country's history with no first hand knowledge of it, suggesting we're all a bunch of "BSers" being brainwashed by "Zionists". You seem to think our media is a carbon copy of the American media, well let me tell you that's definitely not the case. I invite you to learn German and take a close look at the media in my country and you will find that it's very diverse.
I'm really fed up with being called brainwashed and not capable of critical thinking! And I wish people would stop abusing other peoples' suffering for their own agenda.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:The holocaust should be a reminder of where xenophobia, blind following and looking the other way can lead, why is it not possible to leave it at that? It should be a warning to humanity, just like every other atrocity committed on this earth should be a reminder and a warning to humanity!
..and that's why hitler is running around in the US
quote: Who are those "BSers", if I may ask?
Z***** for a start...and all of which they manipulate knowledge, media, govt, education..etc
quote: We learned about the holocaust from our parents, grandparents, granduncles and -aunts, friends' relatives and so on and so forth. Almost everyone has relatives or predecessors who were involved or affected by the Nazi regime
you're a jew and you had fmaily in the holocaust... im sorry if I had offeneded you...:|
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