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They don't make the rules, they just go on rampages to enforce them: Islamic law forbids the construction of new churches or the repair of existing ones. And closed churches are expected to stay that way. As usual, the headline does its utmost to make the hatred and violence appear to be a reciprocal affair.
This latest mob intended to send the message: What we decide to break, you must not dare to fix. What we close, you will not re-open.
Muslim-Christian clashes erupt over reopening of church in Egyptian capital By Associated Press, Published: May 19
CAIRO — Muslims and Christians pelted each with stones in a Cairo suburb Thursday over the reopening of a church the former regime closed years ago.
The church is one of three to be reopened as part of the Egyptian authorities’ plan to try to defuse recent religious tensions. They have promised to reopen nearly 50 churches across Egypt in an attempt to appease Christian protesters who have been holding a sit-in for more than a week along the Nile.
[And how, pray tell, did 50 churches get closed? Rowdy Presbyterian tourists?]
The protesters are also demanding the prosecution of those behind recent attacks on at least three churches in Cairo following the popular uprising that toppled former President Hosni Mubarak on Feb. 11.
Thursday’s clashes began when police accompanied a group of Christians to reopen the Church of the Virgin in the suburb of Ain Shams. More than 1,000 Muslims, including dozens of ultraconservative Salafi Muslims, tried to block the way, and the sides pelted each other with stones, a security official said.
Police detained a number of those involved and the scuffle was quickly contained, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media. No injuries were reported.
The Christians then entered the church while a smaller protest continued outside, the official said.
Meanwhile, hundreds of Christians who have been camping out along the Nile river outside the TV building decided not to break up their protest camp in anger at the harassment.
“It was a farce,” said Girgis Atef, a protest organizer.
About 10 percent of Egyptians are Christians. Earlier this month, mobs of Muslims, apparently urged on by the ultraconservative Salafi sect of Islam, stormed the Virgin Mary Church in the Cairo neighborhood of Imbaba and set it ablaze.
The attack was sparked by a rumor that a Christian woman planned to marry a Muslim, which some religious purists consider to be forbidden.
Fifteen people were killed and more than 200 were injured in the clashes
Meanwhile, Egypt’s military rulers said parliamentary elections will be held no later than Sept. 30, as stipulated by the constitutional declaration that has replaced Egypt’s suspended constitution.
The rulers announced a new law regulating the voting in the upcoming elections, saying it allowed for Egyptians living abroad to vote, a right long denied to millions of them.
However, Maj. Gen. Mamdouh Shaheen said the logistics of organizing a vote by expatriates have not been worked out, indicating the decision is not final.
“There are rules and regulations that organize this operation ... The law stipulates that there must be a judge monitoring every ballot box, not a consul,” said Shaheen, a member of the governing armed forces council. His statements were carried on the official news agency MENA.
The law also allows Egyptians to vote using their national ID card, skipping the registration phase required during Mubarak’s rule — something rights activists said allowed the former regime to fix and inflate the registry in their favor.
That description is a severe oversimplification and misrepresentation. Whether it is a lazy oversight or a deliberate revision, one cannot know, but it implies a "misunderstanding" of Islam, because Islam does permit Muslim men to marry Christian women (but, of course, forbids Christian men from marrying Muslim women).
This is what happened, according to another AP report after the incident: "A Christian woman had an affair with a Muslim man. And when she disappeared, the man spread rumors that Christian clergy had snatched her and were holding her prisoner in a local church because she converted to Islam, security officials said Monday. That brought out a mob of Muslims, led by members of the hardline movement known as Salafis, who attacked the church.... "
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posted
I am not sure. I think they are protesting against kidnapping girls inside the churches in general. You can interpret it the way you want.
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Egyptian Sheikh: Yes, Islam forbids Christians to build new churches
7 Dec 2010
quote:Our eminent shaykh, I read in one of your fatwas on this good and blessed website that it is not permissible for Christians to build or repair churches. What is the evidence for this? Is there evidence in the Qur'an or Sunnah which says that it is forbidden to build churches, or does that only come from jurisprudence?
Answer: In the name of Allah, to Allah be the praise. Peace be upon the Messenger of Allah, as well as upon his family, companions, and whoever follows him.
This is explained in detail in the book, "The Rulings for the People of the Dhimma [i.e. Jews and Christians]" by Imam Ibn Qayyim. It should also suffice you to review my book, "Calling the People of the Book to the Religion of the Lord of Mankind," for there are useful things in it. I previously answered your question, and explained to you what they do with the Muslims in some European countries like Italy, in regards to preventing them from building mosques there. The shari'ah does not treat equally things which are different, nor does it treat differently things which are equal. This is the justice by which oppression is removed. For example, when a person of the Book congratulates me on my holiday, he is congratulating the truth, but when I congratulate him on his holiday, I am congratulating falsehood, for holidays are one of the greatest signs of the religion. Wherefore the infidels, even if they have to spend a great deal of money, would like for Muslims to participate with them in their holidays. There is the saying, "Whoever resembles a people is of them," and also, "Whoever loved a people will be gathered with them." Similarity on the outside leads to similarity on the inside
"We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims."
This is why "interfaith outreach" to Islam on the part of Jews and Christians and other Infidels is so very foolish. Muslims consider any gestures of "respect" for Islam to be nothing but its due, and confirmation of Islam's "truth". They don't see it—as well-meaning Infidels do—as an occasion for respect to be shown them in return.
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I was told that the construction of Coptic churches has for ages been subject to federal government planning permission; as opposed to mosques, which are dealt with by governate rules. Maybe that sounds unfair, but I think [guessing here] that it was either because they are a minority religion, or maybe the idea was to ensure that it would not lead to sectarian problems. As for people complaining about the abduction, by the Church, of young women, [these incidents are a fact; not a rumour] I should think if any of these girls are snatched because they have decided to marry a Muslim, there's going to be big trouble from the husband/fiance and if the girl has willingly chosen to become Muslim ... even bigger trouble. Both these religions have hard and fast and rather arcane rules, some of which are a bit scary. BTW Very Weird, Presbyterian tourists would get a shock if they looked for similarities in the Coptic religion.
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Hundreds of Muslims over the weekend tried to set a local Egyptian Christian's home on fire after he announced he would turn the structure into a church, an Egyptian security source and local Christians told WND.
Local Christians told WND the Muslim mob was provoked at local mosque services.
"The imams deliberately worked up the congregants against us," a local Christian told WND yesterday.
The Muslims accused the Christian home owner of attempting to build a church without the proper local permits. Islamic Shariah law, not explicitly accepted by the Egyptian government, forbids the construction of any new churches in a Muslim state. Existing churches are allowed to remain but cannot be expanded and cannot conduct public ceremonies or ring church bells.. http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105087
more: 12/27/2010 Indonesia: Unable to get building permit for church, Catholics celebrate Christmas Mass in parking lot
Hundreds of members of Saint John the Baptist Catholic Church in Parung (West Java) celebrated Mass under the sun and in a tent set up in the parking lot of the Marsudirini Elementary School
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Indonesia: Church forced to close on the word of one Muslim cleric
[This church was providing financial aid to several young Muslims without trying to convert them. But for the children to see the filthy kuffar engaging in acts of kindness is bad for the business of Islamic supremacism.]
The whole thing began in a village in Sleman Regency on the island of Java. The Pentecostal church of El-Shaddai (Gereja Pantekosta di Indonesia, GPdI) under Rev Nico Lomboan STH was forced to close down after a close-door meeting between the clergyman and local officials..
The Muslim guru claimed that the place of worship lacked a proper building permit (Izin Mendirikan Bangunan or IMB in Indonesian), normally issued by local authorities. Christians who want to build a church must also obtain the signatures of 60 local residents as well as the green light of the local agency for interfaith dialogue. Even then, having all the right papers is no guarantee that they will get their church. Local authorities are often forced by Muslim fundamentalists to reject permit applications by Christians or back track after granting them.
Rev Lomboan said that he had applied to all the right authorities “as far back as 1995”. In the area, Christians have been active since 1990 http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Yogyakarta:-Muslim-leader-gets-Protestant-church-to-close-20990.html Very, very common in Dar-al-Islam. Often such "permits" are essentially impossible to come by, so all non-Muslim places of worship are vulnerable to summary shut-down at any time.
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In practice, the permit system described in the article below functions rather like a modern-day Pact of Umar, making the construction of churches - or the use of existing buildings as churches - similarly subject to the whims of local Muslim communities. These churches were not approved, and thus, not "protected" under the dhimma pact.
Indonesia: Muslim mob burns two churches over lack of "permits"
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12 Jan 2010 Algeria: Muslims loot and burn Christian church
There was no official comment from Algeria's government on the church looting. A senior police officer in the town of Tizi Ouzou confirmed the police hadn't intervened, despite the complaints. He said authorities couldn't intervene because the church hadn't been authorized as a place of worship. http://grendelreport.posterous.com/muslims-loot-and-burn-church-in-algeria
The reluctance of Algerian police authorities to defend the rights of Christians and others from ravaging Muslim mobs for the reason of no official recognition is simply an extension of doctrine according to the Qur’ân and the Sunnah of Muhammed, holding Islam to be supreme to all other religions and the Muslims to be the "best people" over all others.
Official recognition of human rights of non-Muslims would only serve to bring Islam into disrepute among the religions of the world, almost all of which acknowledge and support the basic concept of individual human rights, even over the rights of religious organizations, and the collective practioners of various belief systems.
They can't get a permit for a church...and when they try to worship in private, they're torched by the Muslim mob. How's that for tolerance? What might CAIR offer up?
Thing is, the apologists can't blame this or the attacks on churches in Egypt, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh and elsewhere in the Muslim world on "corrupt regimes" (their favorite scapegoat)....because it's not the regimes doing the attacking (though they're certainly looking the other way). It is the THEMSELVES who are perpetrating this hatred.
Someday - and this is a certainty - church burnings by the Muslim mob will be occurring in Europe and America.
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Existing churches are allowed to remain but cannot be expanded and cannot conduct public ceremonies or ring church bells..
Oh really? So what exactly am I listening to when I go to Alexandria? Oh no! I hear bells ringing, I must be in love!
Hey Very Weird, how do you feel about the ban on mosques in Switzerland introduced last year? Could it be that it is a primarily Christian country? You really should get out more, reading all this stuff to feed your phobia isn't good you know; many of the sources you use are suspect, exceedingly biased, and known for deliberately propagating nonsense to the gullible; you need to travel, get a look at the facts on the ground.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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Forced Marriages and Conversions of Christian Girls in Islamic Countries
Shah Taj, a fourteen-year-old Christian girl from Lahore, Pakistan, was on her way to school last year when a vehicle occupied by three men pulled up beside her. Grabbing her, they threw her in and sped off. As frightening as this may seem, the ordeal of the victim had just begun..
Like Shah Taj, Christian girls throughout the Islamic world are being abducted and trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation and coerced into domestic servitude. Equally shocking is that Muslim men are offered financial incentives when they marry a Christian girl -- a technique designed by Islamic fundamentalists to convert young girls to Islam forcefully.
Recent investigations have revealed frightening information exposing the criminal phenomenon of forced Islamization of Christian girls which is occurring on an alarming scale. On April 16, 2010, eighteen members of the United States Congress wrote to the State Department's Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Office, concerning continued "reports of abductions, forced marriages, and exploitation of Coptic women and girls in Egypt." 2 However, prior to recent reports, Christian abductions have been essentially undocumented. The Egyptian government and state security have routinely denied the problem's existence, refusing to sanction cases that have been commissioned to court -- a maneuver to avoid attracting public attention. http://www.aina.org/news/20100913232512.htm
Forced Conversions in Islam Nothing New
Andrew Bostom provides some historical context to the recent forced coversions of FoxNews reporter Steve Centanni and photographer Olaf Wiig to Islam. In the article, entitled "This Is Your Gazan Conversion," after citing a long list of historical precedents http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/08/this_is_your_gazan_conversion.htmlPosts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Hey VW, what other forums do you frequent? Do you appear on the Vatican's website, log in and start raving about the Spanish Inquisition and paedophiles? Do you haunt forums for single mothers and find absolute 'proof' that they're all ho's and a menace to society? Do you attack the members of welovedogs.com telling them that dog poo causes blindness and allergies? Do you not have enough enemies in your real life? Get out more! Go and pick a fight with your neighbours, or assault a stranger or two in the street. I don't find this stuff amusing any more, and your posts are too damn long, so nobody reads them.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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"Hey Very Weird, how do you feel about the ban on mosques in Switzerland introduced last year? Could it be that it is a primarily Christian country?"
Ever heard of a thing called reciprocity?
I don't see why should Muslims be allowed to build unlimited number of impressive "six meter high" minarets in the heart of the Swiss capital, when Christians are not even allowed to practise their religion in Muslim countries?
You hardly find a more "multicultural", open and globalized country in the Western hemisphere than Switzerland. It has 7.7 million inhabitants, 1.7 million (or 22 percent) are immigrants of which 400,000 to 450,000 Muslims living in Switzerland -- almost three times as many as twenty years ago (1990: 152'000). It has a huge number of mosques for such a small country.
Muslims can have their minerets on one condition – reciprocity. Crosses and Magen Davids and churches and synagogiues in Saudi Arabia, and every other (pure) Islamic state.
Respect has to be earned, and Muslims haven't earned it. Before they can expect others to respect them, they must respect others–which. The Swiss had problems with Islamic fundamentalism in their country, and they have a problem with Muslim immigration.
The Swiss democratically voted to ban new minarets from their cities (the ban does not affect existing mosques and minarets which are numerous by the way for such a small country). Naturally the Swiss people are worrying about the creeping islamization of their country and they have every right to do so. Intrestingly, a significant part of the (anti-racist) left and an overwhelming majority of the women supported the ban -not because they are afraid of minarets, but because they are worried about the role the role of religion in public life.
The former Imam of a mosque in Geneva, Hani Ramadan, a Swiss citizen by the way, publicly justified the stoning of adulterers or the punitive amputation of the hand of a thief. Muslim parents prevented their daughters from attending swimming classes, gymnastics or summer camps in public schools because they didn't want their girls to be together with boys. Media reports about forced marriages, female genital mutilations and "honor killings" of Muslim women - all confirmed by authorities or in court -- came as a shocking surprise. A university professor even went as far as to suggest in an official publication of a federal commission to introduce elements of the Sharia, the Muslim legal system, into Switzerland.
In any case the Muslim communities in Switzerland are free and protected by Swiss Law, Christians in Islamic countries are not.
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In Egyptian law, family matters fall under a religious umbrella, and the Coptic Church is much stricter than Islam in granting divorces, especially to the wives of priests.
Some Christian women have sought escape by converting to Islam, which would automatically annul their marriages. The activists claim that this is what Mrs Shehata and Mrs Constantine did before they were spirited away by church elders and locked up in monasteries.
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Christians in Egypt are quite free to maintain their traditions of female genital mutilations and "honor killings" [as long as they can get away with it.] You do tend to mix culture with religion don't you?
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100 Mosques in Manhattan; Zero Churches, Synagogues in Saudi Arabia
Over the past month, the Muslim community, headed by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, petitioned the City of New York for a permit to build a 15 story mosque in the shadow of Ground Zero.
Families of the 9/11 attack were horrified, as well as other prominent intellectuals who are fully conversant in the deceptive, and historical practices of Islamicization of conquered countries.
One gentleman, Simon Deng, a former slave in the Muslim country of Sudan, spoke about his experience of living in a Muslim country. A "Former Muslim Noni Darwish" also spoke at the rally and indicated that building a mosque at this place would be seen as a symbol of victory over Americans by the jihadist.
What is stunning to free people is that the Muslims have built mosques in every country they have conquered or controlled. But Muslims will not tolerate Judaic, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu, or any other religious house of worship on their territories.
Muslims can do what they want but will not reciprocate in friendship, love, and peace. Would not a sign of love, peace, understanding, and compassion by all Muslims be to build a religious site that embraces the Judaic, Christian, and Islamic faiths? Should Americans demand that Muslims allow the building of Judaic and Christian houses of worship in their countries before we allow a mosque be built where 3,000 Americans died in our country? Forget about the argument that they can do what they want with property they purchased.
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quote:Christians in Egypt are quite free to maintain their traditions of female genital mutilations and "honor killings" [as long as they can get away with it.] You do tend to mix culture with religion don't you?
Some Copts are misogynic, I am not surprised, they live in an predominally Islamic society. However they cannot find justification in their religion for honor killings or genital mutilations. That is why the number of Copts who mutilate their daughters is extremely small compared to their population.
Not so with Egyptian Muslims. Muslims can find justification for both fmg and honor killings in their religion. There is a hadith that encourages fmg, and honor killing is much more prevelant in Islamic societies because of the Islamic ethos of misogyny.
Women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame. Muhammad said they are awrah which can be translated as object of shame.
"Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten."
What is awrah? The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. Pudendum derives from the Latin pudor which means sense of shame and modesty. So awrah signify an object of shame that needs to be covered.
According to the following Hadith, women not only have ten 'awrah, but the woman herself is perceived as 'awrah:
"The woman is 'awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her."
If a woman loses her awrah by e.g. through rape, she becomes the object of shame for her family and the only way to remove that shame and restore the honor is to remove that defiled woman.
So you can say honor killing is cultural, but it is a culture that is deeply rooted in Islamic mindset and derives from it. Egyptians Copts live in a society with a misogynic mindset. So you can say that in their case it is cultural, but in the case of Muslims it is not. It is practiced in all Islamic countries. The more religious is a country, the more is widespread the honor killing.
Women are asked to; “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display” Quran 33.33
A woman who transgresses these orders becomes the source of shame to her family. She will not be marriageable, she and her family become the object of gossip of everyone. The entire family can lose prestige. No one would give a daughter to the brothers of that girl in marriage and no one would marry her sisters. The family and even the extended family are maligned and become outcasts. This can only stop if the family cleanses that stain with blood. The woman thus defiled must be sacrificed even if she is a victim of rape.
But you don’t have to be raped to become an exposed awrah and bring shame to your family. If you disobey your father who has consented that you marry a certain person you dishonor him. If you escape from your home for any reason including abuse, you have brought shame to your family and you could be haunted by your own brothers or even your mother and killed. If you reject a suitor, his pride can be injured and he may feel the urge to throw acid at your face to avenge and restore his honor.
If you are a female you have to remember that you have brought shame and disgrace to your father and everyone else in your family the day you were born and you must cover this shame, You are awrah, a pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. When you go to your husband’s house, your parents can breathe a sigh of relief. But from there on you become the awrah of your husband. Only the grave will cover all the shame that you have brought to this world. But as long as you are alive, it is your religious duty to be modest and cover this shame and not disgrace your qayyuums (male guardians). Your male kin, (father, brothers, husband, sons and even uncles) are your qayyuums and you are their awrah. If you make a dazzling display of yourself, the honor of all these "honorable" male relatives is injured and all of them have a right to burry you to restore their honor.
The sentences for Honor killing are light. Often they are a year of jail or only a few months. The Muslim judges are very "understanding" and sympathize with the killers who are also grieving for the loss of their loved one. Most likely the Judges would do the same in similar situations. Everyone agrees that this is a very unfortunate situation that has no other solution but taking the life of the poor girl. Often the brothers and the parents hug the lifeless cadaver of their victim and cry bitterly after stabbing her to death or strangulating her. They don't listen to her pleading and begging to spare her life, but sure they cry profusely for her after they kill her.
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Pmsfl... I bet Billy Graham is shittin' himself knowing you are spreading the word of Christianity.
I will look out for your words in 'The Daily Bread' which btw, is available here in Egypt to buy... but you wouldn't know that never leaving your bubble Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I quite like that bit about women being dangerous, creatures of the night, sources of sin etc.... makes me feel quite ... hmmm racy. FGM, honour killings, African desert tribal stuff. Nothing to do with Islam. It was [rather grudgingly I thought] acknowledged as a practice in the Quran. Hadiths don't work on this board btw. And to suggest that Christians picked up these bad habits by living up the street from a bunch of Muslims is just plain stooopid. Au contraire mon ami, no doubt if they heard of Muslims doing such nonsense, they would be even less likely to practice it themselves. you don't know these guys. I don't think FGM is uncommon amongst Copts. Not what I have heard.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ok very weird, I will give you a break here. I can only discuss Muslims in Egypt [because the Pakistani Muslims I knew in England largely had an English culture going on] If we're honest, as foreigners here, there are many aspects of Islamic beliefs and the way they translate to popular culture here, that we maybe disagree with. Are horrified by in some cases.I can't stand the intricate financial aspects of marrying off your daughters for instance. And yeah, 'security' hoho as if marrying an Egyptian man [without even road testing him first] is a promise of security.Scams, if you ask me. Occasional, and very recent btw sectarian violence, is vile, and nobody seems to know how this started, most Egyptians I know are very shocked. FGM, honour killings ... horrible low life stuff.
But... nobody in their right mind tries to justify this as any kind of mainstream Islam. These people aren't monsters, nobody is asking you to convert, nobody asking you to offer us the benefit of your biased opinions. If we want to listen to this distorted propaganda there are enough sources out there for us to laugh at. Most of the media sources spouting this stuff do have a political agenda, you seem to want us to believe you are researching to spread the word. I could do that. I could read the benefits of being molested behind the altar, or how to blow up a family planning clinic, allow my 10year old to be 'married' to some redneck 'christian',I'm not going horrify people with newspaper reports of mad Jewish fundies who rape 3 year olds, and publicly flog musicians, or Hindus who torch a train load of Haaj pilgrims.
But what would be the point? I already know there are some sickos out there, who use religion as an excuse to do vile things. But I don't tar them all with the same brush, and I don't spout hatred at everyone.
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