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From Mohamed Fadel Fahmy and Ian Lee, For CNN May 8, 2011 -- Updated 0821 GMT (1621 HKT)
Cairo, Egypt (CNN) -- At least six people were killed and 120 injured in sectarian clashes outside a Cairo church, an incident officials say began over rumors that a Christian woman who converted to Islam was being held there against her will.
Witnesses said an armed group of Muslims marched on Saint Mena Coptic Orthodox Church , one of the oldest churches in Egypt.
During the clashes Saturday, Muslims and Christians exchanged gunfire, sending people running for cover, witnesses said.
"With my own eyes I saw three people killed and dozens injured," said Mina Adel, a Christian resident. "There's no security here. There's a big problem. People attacked us, and we have to protect ourselves."
Egyptian Interior Ministry spokesman Alla Mahmoud said in a statement that six people were killed and 120 injured, while State TV said that 10 people died and 186 were wounded in the violence.
There were conflicting reports about who attacked the church.
Some witnesses said the group was made up of Muslim fundamentalists, known as Salafists. Others, including the ministry spokesman, said it was angry Muslims from a nearby mosque.
Mahmoud said the clashes were sparked by reports of a Christian woman who married a Muslim man and was allegedly being held inside the church.
Military, including special forces and riot police were called in to try to break up the violence, firing warning shots in the air, according to witnesses.
At the same time, at the nearby Coptic Church of the Holy Virgin, firefighters responded to a blaze that witnesses said appeared to have been started by the members of the same group that attacked the other church.
Hundreds of residents stood outside as it burned and two men were seen jumping from a window of the building, according to witnesses.
Across the street, residents standing outside the Al Wehda mosque blamed "thugs" for the violence.
"It was thugs who burned the church, not Salafists (fundamentalists)," said Jamal El Banan. "We never had such sedition before the revolution."
Egypt's Prime Minister Essam Sharaf on Sunday postponed a trip to Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, calling an emergency Cabinet meeting to discuss the church attack, according to egynews, Egypt's official new agency.
Tensions have risen in recent months between Egypt's Muslim majority and its Coptic minority.
A Coptic church in the town of Alexandria was bombed on New Year's Day, killing 23 people -- the deadliest attack on Christians in Egypt in recent times.
Ten days later, a gunman killed a Christian man and wounded five others on a train in Egypt.
In November, a group with ties to al Qaeda in Iraq announced that all Christians in the Middle East would be "legitimate targets," as the group's deadline for Egypt's Coptic church to release alleged Muslim female prisoners expired.
The group's claim that the Coptic Church in Egypt is holding female prisoners is based on widespread rumors of Coptic women in Egypt converting to Islam and being detained by the church in an attempt to compel or persuade them to return to their original faith.
About 9% of Egypt's 80 million residents are Coptic Christians. They base their theology on the teachings of the Apostle Mark, who introduced Christianity to Egypt, according to St. Takla Church in Alexandria, the capital of Coptic Christianity.
The religion split with other Christians in the 5th century over the definition of the divinity of Jesus Christ.
At least six people dead and another church on fire in the great land of Egypt.... how many more??? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
Christ and Saint Menas. A 6th-century Coptic icon from Egypt (Musée du Louvre)The Coptic Orthodox Church of Saint Menas (Egyptian Arabic: كنيسه مارمينا بفم الخليج kenniṣat mari mina) is a Coptic Orthodox church near Coptic Cairo and is one of the oldest Coptic churches in Egypt, dating back to the 6th century AD.[1]
Contents [hide] 1 Geographic Significance 2 History 3 The Church Today 4 See also 5 External links 6 References
[edit] Geographic SignificanceSt. Mena's church is on the north end of Coptic Cairo, located in a region known as Fum al-Khalig, north of the Roman aqueduct and the famed Babylon Fortress, at a Christian cemetery in the north end of Old Cairo.
Fum al Khalig is technically north of Old Cairo, however, it is still under the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Old Cairo, Manial and Fum Al-Khalig.[2]
Fum al Khalig is also known as Al-Hamra (literally: "red" in Egyptian Arabic). The Coptic Orthodox Diocese encompasses Al-Hamra as well as Coptic Cairo. St. Menas Church is still very near to the ancient Churches of Old Cairo, and is likely the first Coptic Orthodox Church in Cairo aside from several Churches that were all in the Old Cairo area at the time. Not only is it evidence of the past existence of Coptic Orthodox Christianity in Cairo outside of the Old City (being close to the northern tip of the district), but it is also one of few surviving pieces and large remnants of Coptic architecture that remains to this day.
[edit] HistorySt. Mena's Church is, along with the UNESCO World Heritage site of Abu Mena, one of the best recognized architectural elements that are named after St. Mena. Having been established in the 6th century, it is also one of the oldest churches in Egypt. In the eighth century, it is said that the church of Sain was destroyed during the reign of caliph Hisham Ibn Abdel Malik Ibn Marwan, and rebuilt soon afterwards.
In 1164 AD, the Church was renovated again. Pillars were constructed for the purpose of replacing the marble columns. These same masonry pillars, which still exist in the present, separate the nave from the aisles with six on each side.[3]
[edit] The Church TodayNowadays, only sections of the central sanctuary and the outer wall remain from the 8th century building. The church is divided into many sanctuaries, nave and aisles. Tourists can see depiction of the Holy Coptic Bible from the walls of the church. The current building measures about 20.5 by 15 meters and stands 13.5 meters high.
St. Mena's relics were formerly kept in this church, however, most of these relics were transferred to the famous Monastery of St. Mina in Mariut (near Alexandria) in 1962. The only remaining ones are kept in the narthex of the church. On the southern sanctuary, there is shrine that contains a number of beautiful icons embroidered in the Coptic style.[1]
(source: Wikipedia)
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posted
Since reading this forum I really have tried to have an open mind, but it's stories like this that make me wonder what people are taught in Egypt. I want to believe the people on here that keep saying Islam is a religion of peace but Im just not seeing it...I try to respect faiths but it really does seem to make nice people do crazy things....
Posts: 314 | From: australia | Registered: Jul 2010
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Glassflower, I don't believe for one minute that these atrocities are cases of "nice people do crazy things....".
These people aren't nice in the first place! The fact that they are Muslim is a consequence of where they were born and how they were raised, and doesn't necessarily have any impact on their thoroughly wicked behaviour.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Funny how the MSM always describes these kind of riots and attack in Moslem countries as "ethnic clashes", "sectarian strife", or "tensions", giving the impression of equal participation, when it's pretty clearly a matter of the Moslem majority attacking a minority group.
It's like that "sectarian" Holocaust - some Germans died, some Jews died - it was all so unfortunate. If only people could learn to get along...
Here, the rumor that the Coptic church is holding two women who converted to Islam has fueled months of jihadist violence against Christians far removed from any such alleged conspiracy, including the New Year's Eve church bombing in Alexandria, and even the massacre on the eve of All Saints' Day in Baghdad.
"The group's claim that the Coptic Church in Egypt is holding female prisoners is based on widespread rumors of Coptic women.."
But when Muslims abduct Christian girls and women - and they do - that's apparently A-OK. Coptic Pope Shenouda III warned as far back as 1976 that "there is a practice to convert Coptic girls to embrace Islam and marry them under terror to Muslim husbands."
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While reading, I had some questions in mind.
who spread this rumor that the Coptic church is holding two women who converted to Islam ?
and what confirmed it?
is it really a rumor or not?
Wasn't it clear that the disappearance of Some girls who declared conversion to islam a clear proof that there is something wrong going on in the church?
are not there christian fundamentalists in egypt as well as muslim fundamentalists?
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quote:Originally posted by Glassflower: Since reading this forum I really have tried to have an open mind, but it's stories like this that make me wonder what people are taught in Egypt. I want to believe the people on here that keep saying Islam is a religion of peace but Im just not seeing it...I try to respect faiths but it really does seem to make nice people do crazy things....
Islam is a peaceful religion. Does someone have the right to call Christianity unpeaceful religion, after all the dominant religion of Serbs is Christianity. They after all went house to hose killing hundreds of thousands and raping tens of thousands of Muslims. Should we call Christianity an unpeaceful religion because of the actions of Christians that are born and bred in Christian countries such as Germany and other European countries where Muslims are targeted and murdered simply because they are Muslims (they are after all a tiny minority). Certainly I don't want to be labeled as a belligerent imbecile for judging a people or religion on the actions of a few people, and it is a few people, as Islam is a nation of 1 billion people. Your own country (Austrailia) is not immune from the savagery. Is it right to call label Christianity as unpeaceful by the actions of Christian Australians who attack Muslims, who commit and support racism as well as murder Muslims in Australia. Every year thousands of Muslim are killed but because the western media rarely covers most of these incidents, these stories don't proliferate en masse - are we to be so shallow and hypocrites? Doing a search in English you have to emphasize that Muslims are victims to get a search result because of endless articles written by Westerners/Whites/Christians with their grievances, often repeats, top the search index and news sources. A muslim death might get a few hits unless it is something out of the extra-ordinary. A Christian/white person death on the other hand by Muslims receives thousands of search hits. You can't force open a closed mind -this is an unfortunate fact for must people. As for the killings in Egypt, it is a sad reality that there is tension there, hopefully the underlying issues that lead to these atrocities will be addressed, hopefully with more enforcement and convictions.
Empirically a close mind seldom opens, even under the guise or perception that it is (open). You can have an open mind or close mind and it is irrelevant, the truth is however out there, whether you choose to deny it, is your prerogative.
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@ Exilied, I know a Muslim who lives in Australia and he loves it there. He has never said anything bad to me about living there and he is in a profession where he is in contact with lots of people. I'm wondering where you got the information that thousands of Muslims are killed in Australia every year.
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CAIRO: Twelve died and 232 were injured in Saturday’s Imbaba clashes, which were fueled by a rumor that a Christian woman who converted to Islam was being held inside Marimina Church.
Among those killed were four Christians and six Muslims, while two other bodies were still unidentified, according to AFP.
The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces said on Sunday 190 were arrested and would be tried in front of a military court. An officer at the media department of the Ministry of Interior said 159 were arrested.
Victims' families would be paid LE 5,000 in compensation, and the injured would receive LE 2,000, said Ali Abdel-Rahman, the governor of Giza where Imbaba lies.
A curfew has been imposed in the area around the Imbaba church until 11:00 am (0900 GMT) on Monday, state TV reported.
Eyewitnesses and residents of Luxor Street, where the church is located, provided conflicting accounts of the events. Some told Daily News Egypt that Salafis protested in front of the church against holding a Muslim woman inside, which soon led to clashes with a Coptic owner of a café in front of the church called Adel Labib.
Eyewitnesses said Labib went to the rooftop of the building he owns in front of the church and started shooting at protesters and then other armed men started shooting from the church.
Violent clashes then erupted in Luxor Street between Muslims and Copts after a nearby church was burnt down in Al-Wehda Street, Imbaba.
However, Mina Adel, a Coptic eyewitness, denied that Copts started shooting. "The Salafi protesters are the ones who started shooting at the church when they found Copts forming a human shield to protect the church."
The SCAF said that a committee will be formed to evaluate the losses of private property and to rebuild all vandalized churches and properties, urging Muslims and Christians to practice self-restraint.
Cabinet said a crisis ministerial meeting will remain in session to follow up on developments.
Minister of Justice Abdel-Aziz El-Guindy said in a press conference Sunday that Cabinet decided to activate all laws pertaining to fighting terrorism, namely Article 86 that criminalizes all attempts to threaten national security including attacking houses of worship.
"All powers will be given to the Ministry of Interior to firmly fight all acts of violence that threaten national security," said El-Guindy. "All the achievements of the revolution's government are being threatened by counter-revolution attempts."
“Egypt has actually become a country in danger,” he added.
Clashes erupted again Sunday morning in Luxor Street and military police arrested many of those fighting while riot police blocked roads leading to the church.
Reports of reconciliation between Copts and Salafis are to be organized by high-ranking police officers.
El-Tahrir Hospital in Imbaba received six of the dead and 81 injured, all of whom were released except five, while three fled the hospital.
Imbaba General Hospital received two of the fatalities and 46 injured, all of whom were released except 10, while five were transferred to Qasr El-Eini Hospital and one to Nasser Institute.
Moataz Abul Azm, head of the emergency room in Qasr El-Eini Hospital, told DNE they received 23 injured on Saturday night as a result of the Imbaba clashes.
He added that 12 were released, while 11 remained hospitalized.
"The injuries are mostly gunshot wounds including a bullet wound to the back and skull, a fracture to the artery in the left thigh and several bullet wounds to the heads of victims, which left skulls fractured," Abul Azm said.
An official at Nasser Institute, who preferred to remain anonymous because he wasn't authorized to speak to the media, told DNE they received 18 injured from Imbaba on Saturday.
He wouldn't elaborate whether their condition was critical.
Officials at Imbaba General Hospital told DNE that injured Muslims and Copts were separated to avoid clashes.
The injured recounted conflicting reports of how clashes began.
Rimon Hany, a Copt injured with a live shot in the leg, told DNE that Salafis protested in front of the church which prompted Copts to form a human shield around it.
Hany added that Salafis left and then came back with guns and started shooting, confirming that those Salafis were not residents of the neighborhood.
Gasser Abo-Khadra, a cousin of an injured Muslim man, said Salafi protesters were from the neighborhood. Clashes erupted after a fight between a Muslim and a Copt over a girl who was allegedly held inside the church, he claimed.
Senior Researcher at the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR) Sarah Carr said in her report that members of the technically dissolved State Security Investigations (SSI) were mingling with the Central Security Forces (CSF).
"I saw an officer accompanied by around four other men leave the crowd near the cordon and sit in the lobby of a nearby building. In the crowd itself I was stopped by a man in a suit who described himself as ‘head of the media section of the security directorate’," Carr said.
She added that some crowds were chanting "Muslims and Copts are one hand," stating that “a distraught woman in a niqab (full face veil often associated with Salafi ideology) cried and condemned the events; another questioned why this was happening when ‘Christians and Muslims were united during the revolution.’”
Carr saw the destruction of the café owned by Labib was done by a group of young men, not necessarily Salafis.
"Only one man was dressed like a Salafi, and the attack — at least by the time we arrived — would seem not to have been carried out by Salafis, at least not in its later stages." Carr said.
Carr added that two CSF troops were inside the café, but she confirmed that what they were doing inside was unclear, adding that "they were not making any attempt to stop the crowd.” –Additional reporting by Mai Shams El-Din and Heba Fahmy and agencies.
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So one side is saying you did this and another side is saying you did that. The fact is 12 people are dead 4 Christians and 6 Muslims. That's truth.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: @ Exilied, I know a Muslim who lives in Australia and he loves it there. He has never said anything bad to me about living there and he is in a profession where he is in contact with lots of people. I'm wondering where you got the information that thousands of Muslims are killed in Australia every year.
Re-read my post, as I did not state that thousands of Muslim are killed in Austrailia. I wrote thousands of Muslims are killed every year, meaning worldwide. Or did the period miss you. You think I would write something illogical like that, when all of Austrailia probably has less than a thousand total murders per year.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Your own country (Austrailia) is not immune from the savagery. Is it right to call label Christianity as unpeaceful by the actions of Christian Australians who attack Muslims, who commit and support racism as well as murder Muslims in Australia. Every year thousands of Muslim are killed but because the western media rarely covers most of these incidents, these stories don't proliferate en masse - are we to be so shallow and hypocrites?
I reread it. Still sounds like you are talking about Australia to me cause it follows Australia in the same paragraph. Thanks for clarifying it.
Exiled I'm curious if you know of any situation where the Serbs, Germans, Europeans or any other Christian country use Jesus as an example for their killings or scripture from the Bible to justify their killing of Muslims or Jews?
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Glassflower: it's stories like this that make me wonder what people are taught in Egypt.
That's where the problem lies. Most people are poorly educated and even those educated receive dogmatic teaching that is not based on facts. People simply repeat misconceptions of Religion as facts and the lack of open discussions and debates left the door open to fear mongering. Proper education, open debates and emphasis on equality is what many are starting to "preach".
quote:Originally posted by Glassflower: I want to believe the people on here that keep saying Islam is a religion of peace but Im just not seeing it...I try to respect faiths but it really does seem to make nice people do crazy things....
People can make any religion be whatever they want it to be. It's that simple. And when you have that many ignorant people it is quite easy to mislead a bunch of them to act like criminals.
There are more than 80 million people in Egypt. I don't know of a country that, with so little effective law enforcement and with a history of such corruption, poverty and poor education, could have so little crime and unrest. I think we're doing so well that it will be written in the history books that Egyptians while facing a prefect storm remained civil, united and supportive of one another.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote: Your own country (Austrailia) is not immune from the savagery. Is it right to call label Christianity as unpeaceful by the actions of Christian Australians who attack Muslims, who commit and support racism as well as murder Muslims in Australia. Every year thousands of Muslim are killed but because the western media rarely covers most of these incidents, these stories don't proliferate en masse - are we to be so shallow and hypocrites?
I reread it. Still sounds like you are talking about Australia to me cause it follows Australia in the same paragraph. Thanks for clarifying it.
Exiled I'm curious if you know of any situation where the Serbs, Germans, Europeans or any other Christian country use Jesus as an example for their killings or scripture from the Bible to justify their killing of Muslims or Jews?
Are you kidding me? Let me bring it closer to home.
Iraq. George W Bush said that God (Jesus) spoke to him. He said God (Jesus) told him to end “tyranny in Iraq”. That's a million dead there, with the backing of the majority Christian voters relecting him. US soldiers admitted to killing in the name of “god and country.”
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... but this is in his own head, it is not in the Bible or from the teachings of Jesus. He did not use a scripture and he did not use Jesus as an example.
We are already in agreement that Christians do bad things.
What I am asking is if you know of an incident where the teachings of Jesus is used or a scripture from the Bible is used to justify these actions?
It is debatable if he had the majority of Christian voters. I know that he had the vote of the evangelical Christian. They are certainly the loudest. You do know that the Supreme court elected him the first term and his second term was highly questionable. If he won fairly at all it was by an extremely slim margin.
fyi. I strongly disagree with what he did and I hate it, as do at least half of our country.
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For God' sake Odoro it is the same argument over and over again and you just don't seem to get it.
Apply the same logic you used with Christians to Muslims. It is not very difficult to understand. It was only in their head but Quran does not say that. I posted criminal scripts of the bible and you defended it using the same defense Muslims use. It can't be that difficult to understand.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Yes he did say that...
... but this is in his own head, it is not in the Bible or from the teachings of Jesus. He did not use a scripture and he did not use Jesus as an example.
We are already in agreement that Christians do bad things.
What I am asking is if you know of an incident where the teachings of Jesus is used or a scripture from the Bible is used to justify these actions?
It is debatable if he had the majority of Christian voters. I know that he had the vote of the evangelical Christian. They are certainly the loudest. You do know that the Supreme court elected him the first term and his second term was highly questionable. If he won fairly at all it was by an extremely slim margin.
fyi. I strongly disagree with what he did and I hate it, as do at least half of our country.
I answered your question. Mass murder was committed in the name of God (Jesus). Who knows how Bush or the soldiers that admitted to killing in “the name of god and country” interpreted or validated their actions. They certainly used God as their inspiration for killings. They killed in the name of God. Suppose they interpreted this verse Luke 19:27 “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me“ - to justifying their killings.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Yes he did say that...
... but this is in his own head, it is not in the Bible or from the teachings of Jesus. He did not use a scripture and he did not use Jesus as an example.
We are already in agreement that Christians do bad things.
What I am asking is if you know of an incident where the teachings of Jesus is used or a scripture from the Bible is used to justify these actions?
It is debatable if he had the majority of Christian voters. I know that he had the vote of the evangelical Christian. They are certainly the loudest. You do know that the Supreme court elected him the first term and his second term was highly questionable. If he won fairly at all it was by an extremely slim margin.
fyi. I strongly disagree with what he did and I hate it, as do at least half of our country.
I answered your question. Mass murder was committed in the name of God (Jesus). Who knows how Bush or the soldiers that admitted to killing in “the name of god and country” interpreted or validated their actions. They certainly used God as their inspiration for killings. They killed in the name of God. Suppose they interpreted this verse Luke 19:27 “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me“ - to justifying their killings.
Very good, I can see how that can be taken out of context to justify their killings.
If you read the whole chapter you can see that it specifically says that this is a parable.
Bush did say that he was listening to God but how can God go against his own word? When Jesus specifically tells us not to take vengeance, not to kill, to turn the other cheek, to be a peace maker and live in peace, how can one be listening to this and say that God told him to do the opposite?
Why if you feel that the verses that I posted from the Quran were taken out of context didn't you say that? .... I did ask.
@ this, I think it is you that does not get it. Some Muslims can use the same argument because they don't follow the hadith. The Quran is not the only thing followed by Muslims and I did post verses from the Quran which a couple were addressed by Ayisha.
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Yes he did say that...
... but this is in his own head, it is not in the Bible or from the teachings of Jesus. He did not use a scripture and he did not use Jesus as an example.
We are already in agreement that Christians do bad things.
What I am asking is if you know of an incident where the teachings of Jesus is used or a scripture from the Bible is used to justify these actions?
It is debatable if he had the majority of Christian voters. I know that he had the vote of the evangelical Christian. They are certainly the loudest. You do know that the Supreme court elected him the first term and his second term was highly questionable. If he won fairly at all it was by an extremely slim margin.
fyi. I strongly disagree with what he did and I hate it, as do at least half of our country.
I answered your question. Mass murder was committed in the name of God (Jesus). Who knows how Bush or the soldiers that admitted to killing in “the name of god and country” interpreted or validated their actions. They certainly used God as their inspiration for killings. They killed in the name of God. Suppose they interpreted this verse Luke 19:27 “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me“ - to justifying their killings.
Very good, I can see how that can be taken out of context to justify their killings.
If you read the whole chapter you can see that it specifically says that this is a parable.
Bush did say that he was listening to God but how can God go against his own word? When Jesus specifically tells us not to take vengeance, not to kill, to turn the other cheek, to be a peace maker and live in peace, how can one be listening to this and say that God told him to do the opposite?
Why if you feel that the verses that I posted from the Quran were taken out of context didn't you say that? .... I did ask.
@ this, I think it is you that does not get it. Some Muslims can use the same argument because they don't follow the hadith. The Quran is not the only thing followed by Muslims and I did post verses from the Quran which a couple were addressed by Ayisha.
The Quran states killing a human is tantamount to killing mankind. Yet you have Muslims who commit acts similar to Christians in the name or cause of God. They interpret the Quran to their will, as a twisted person of any persuasion may be inclined to do so.
BTW. I don't read every thread here, or even posts, I often skim a lot, when I believe a member is conditioned, close minded, hopeless. But sometimes I do. And I am NOT alluding to you here, because I think you are salvageable, at least you display a heartbeat, a little blood flow, some hope if you will. I will get on your ass harder than anyone else because of this fact. Now let me be to celebrate an ass kickin' Yankees just gave Texas @ Texas.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Very good, I can see how that can be taken out of context to justify their killings.
Really
@ this, I think it is you that does not get it. Some Muslims can use the same argument because they don't follow the hadith. The Quran is not the only thing followed by Muslims and I did post verses from the Quran which a couple were addressed by Ayisha. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Again, that is precisely my point. Whether they use Hadith, Quran or both, the same happens in Christianity and all Religions. I do not need to ask why McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma federal building and I don't know what religion he followed or reasons he gave because I know that no respectable religion on the planet with would ever advocate this kind of violence and have number of followers that major religion do. I do not need to ask if Christianity condoned his actions. It is not a question to ask.
And now here comes my rant. I don't know how you people are not disgusted at the level of your stupidity and I don't how stupid I have to be to keep reading or bother answering your fucking crap Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
"The Quran states killing a human is tantamount to killing mankind."
No, that's not what the Quran says. That's 5.32, quoting a Jewish text. 5.33 considerably modifies that statement, puts in a context that changes its meaning.
But how many non-Muslims would know that?
And how many would understand that use of the word "innocent" is not itself innocent, but is intended to fool those who do not realize that the non-Muslim definition of "innocent" and the Muslim definition are quite different?
What the Quran defines as an "Innocent civilian" is a only fellow Muslims caught between fighting Muslims tribes or sects of islam. All non-Muslims are defined as enemies of Allah and Islam and thus...a valid target for killing by-proxy as a member of the group at War with Islam. 5:32 should be read in context with 5:33 "war against Allah and his prophet".
The verse 5:32 is allowing for killing in retaliation for killing, and another allowing for killing to punish "mischief/corruption".
5:32 "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth."
"They interpret the Quran to their will, as a twisted person of any persuasion may be inclined to do so."
No, they interpret it as Muhammad did, and as Muslim scholar and commentators of the Quran have always interpreted it throughtout the centuries. How can it be that for 1300 years all the Muslims were misinterpreting the Quran and suddenly when they came in contact with the West and were embarrassed to see their religion is barbaric they discovered that the history of Muhammad that they have is all lies?
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quote:It was only in their head but Quran does not say that. I posted criminal scripts of the bible and you defended it using the same defense Muslims use.
You are taking the Bible out of context, whereas I am not taking the Quran out of context, what I say about the Quran is also what the mainstream Islamic schools of thought say, what the great Muslims and commentators of Islam say.
You can't find any exhortation in the Bible whatsoever similar to the Quran's numerous exhortations to kill the disbelievers. You expect us to read the Bible out of context, ignoring how Christian scholars understand those texts, and ignoring the fact that the Biblical passage, unlike Islam, is not an open-ended command, but instead, a story of history bound within the text. This is why Christians and Jews do not treat these verses as present-day imperatives. This is why no other religion regularly kills members of every other faith explicitly in the name its god. And, on the rare occasions when this does happen, the response is anger and denouncement rather than the general indifference that Muslims have for Islamic terror (aside from the 15% or so who openly endorse it).
Your first clue should be the scarcity of Christian terrorist groups. Not too many people are losing their heads to fanatics screaming praises to Jesus (or Moses, Buddha or the many Hindu gods either) as they are to shouts of “Allah Akbar!” That there are so many Islamic terrorist groups composed of fundamentalists (or purists) of the Muslim faith is enough to impress any reasonable person that there is something far more dangerous about Islam.
Islamic terrorists wage holy war on a daily basis because it is the literal command of the Quran. Western Muslim apologists (concerned solely with the image of Islam) window-dress these violent passages through a complex series of appeals to a patchwork of external Muslim sources. Then, after delicately arranging the products of this Herculean charade in such a way as to convince the rest of us that these Quranic verses of violence are not what they appear, the apologist steps back, wipes the sweat from his brow and says, “See how clear it is? No Muslim could possibly interpret this command to kill as a command to kill.”
Well, why are these verses in the Quran at all, then? If they are supposed to be history, then why do they appear as imperative? Why isn’t the context right there in the text as it is in the Old Testament?
After all, this is supposed to be Allah’s perfect book. How is it that it is so vulnerable to the worst sort of "misinterpretation"?
Lacking a decent answer to these questions, Muslims attack the Bible instead.
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I have had many debates against muslims and usually when they can't answer something found in Islam, They will claim the Bible is the same thing.....Seemingly not knowing there is a Old Testament and a New Testament. They also seem not to be able to understand that Jesus spoke in Parables claiming Jesus condoned violence.
What we know from the Bible is that Jesus said love thy neighbour as you love thy self. We also know Jesus said "If Possible live peaceably with all men" again "How you want man to treat you, treat man likewise". Jesus was all about Love and showing humbleness, thats why he washed the feat of his Disciples and told his followers to turn the other cheek.
Only people with issues will try and claim that they can compare a violent murder like muhammad to Jesus...Just got to keep showing them love regardless and hope they come around before it's Judgement day.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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I wasnt picking on the Muslims...I was saying that religion doesnt have the answers for me when I see people like Bush get in coz of christian rightwing and do crazy god is on our side, Over a million Iranian muslims killed by muslim Iraqis etc etc etc....and yet if I say I have tried to believe(and did when I was younger in a childlike way what I was taught)....now both sides would want to push me into the abyss! I think 'this' is right about the education...but then what people seem to learn is often so bias...and like children the un educated put their faith in people that often preach rubbish....at the moment I am just happy I get to live in Tas where none of these issues hastle me....its the ignorance of peoples own religion that urks me...and the fact that they will kill in its name....counting down the days before the next nutter kills inocent people in the name of Osama here... Posts: 314 | From: australia | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:I think 'this' is right about the education...its the ignorance of peoples own religion that urks me..
Lack of education and ignorance have little to do with it. Latin/South American and non-Muslim Asian and African countries also suffer educational, economic, and political backwardness- anything and everything the Muslim world suffers, yet oftentimes more, there are no records of say, practicing Christians, Buddhists, or African animists crashing explosives-laden vehicles into their respective government's buildings all while screaming "Jesus" or "Buddha" or "Buluku" "is great!" Why?
Most Islamic terrorists are well educated and have studied their religion extensively. Even if one accepts that nothing like terrorism is meant by the Quran's injunction to Muslims to "strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah" (8:60), the difficulty with this is that Islamic jihadists themselves don't speak about terrorism. They speak of their activities in the context of Islamic jihad.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: What I am asking is if you know of an incident where the teachings of Jesus is used or a scripture from the Bible is used to justify these actions?
You mean an incident like this?
The Apostle of Allah said: "Woe to you Abu Sufyan, isn't it time that you recognize that I am God's apostle?" [Sufyan] answered, "As to that I still have some doubt." [Ibn Abbas] said to [Sufyan], "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of God before you lose your head," so [Sufyan] did so.
[Page 547 (814 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad]
or this?
Abu jahl said to them: "Muhammad alleges that if you follow him you will be kings of the Arabs and the Persians. Then after death you will be raised to gardens like those of the Jordan. But if you do not follow him you will be slaughtered, and when you are raised from the dead you will be burned in the fire of hell." The apostle [Muhammad] came out to them with a handful of dust saying: "I do say that."
[Page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad]
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All I see is another church has been burned down 'thanks' to Muslims and Christians who tried to protect their place of worship were killed.
I don't see any mosques being burned down to the ground by Christians in Egypt. Do you???
"Anyone who blames Egypt's Christians 4 violence is like a rapist saying "She asked for it" Stop blaming the victim & face the truth!" http://twitter.com/#!/NefrettePosts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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As many as 120 people were taken hostage inside the church. Most of the hostages were killed or wounded when the attackers set off explosives inside the church, defense ministry officials said at the time.
The 'Islamic State of Iraq' claimed responsibility for the Baghdad church siege.
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Local residents said a separate mob of youths armed with knives and machetes attacked the Virgin Mary church several blocks away with firebombs.
'People were scared to come near them,' said local resident Adel Mohammed, 29, who lives near the Virgin Mary Church. 'They looked scary. They threw their firebombs at the church and set parts of it ablaze.'
During Egypt's 18-day uprising that ousted former President Hosni Mubarak several months ago, there was a rare spirit of brotherhood between Muslims and Christians. Each group protected the other during prayer sessions in Cairo's Tahrir Square, the epicenter of the revolution.
But in the months that followed the toppling of Mubarak on Feb. 11, there has been a sharp rise in sectarian tensions, fueled in part by newly active ultraconservative Muslim movement, known as the Salafis.
The once quiescent Salafis have become more assertive post-revolution in trying to spread their ultraconservative version of an Islamic way of life. In particular, they have focused their wrath on Egypt's Christians, who make up 10 percent of the country's 80 million people.
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Whilst i wouldn't try to defend this madness, I have been told [and mentioned it on another thread] by a Coptic Christian woman that her church takes an exceedingly dim view of their daughters changing their religion. 'Being held captive in a church' is not an unlikely scenario. Dunno why we Westerners always fall back on the Christians always the good guys/Muslims always the bad guys line. Sounds like gang warfare on both sides. Probably based on some Muslim guy's fiance being 'disappeared'. I would like to know whether a devout Coptic family would for instance allow their daughter to either marry a protestant, or convert to Roman Catholicism. Doubt it. Any Copts reading this? Let me know?
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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العنف الطائفي في مصر: كلنا مضطهدون ...............................................................
البابا شنوده
أيمن رفعت ...................
أولا: ما سبب العنف الطائفي؟
من أهم أسس المنهج العلمي ألا تدرس الظاهرة موضوع دراستك بمعزل عن سياقها العام. وإذا أردنا دراسة العنف الطائفي في مصر فيجب ألا نعزله عن بقية صور العنف في المجتمع المصري، مثل العنف الأسري الذي يبدأ مع أول مشكلة تسكت عنها الألسنة لترتفع فوقها الأيدي، والعنف في المدارس سواء كان بين المعلم وطلابه أو بين الطلاب أنفسهم، والعنف الذي يمارسه رجال الشرطة بشكل روتيني، والعنف الواضح حتي في قيادة السيارات. وبذلك سنخرج بأول نتيجة، وهي: إن العنف أصبح ظاهرة عامة في المجتمع المصري في السنوات الأخيرة، وهو ليس قاصرا علي العلاقة بين الطوائف الدينية المختلفة. ولذلك فإنني أعتقد أن سبب العنف الطائفي في مصر هو نفسه سبب الصور الأخري للعنف، فما سبب العنف الطائفي في مصر؟ ثمة ثلاث إجابات مختلفة لهذا السؤال:
1- وجود جماعات وأفراد في كلتا الطائفتين المسلمة والمسيحية يبثون الكراهية للطائفة الأخري بمختلف المنابر. ولكني أري أن هذا ليس سببا للعنف الطائفي، وإنما أحد مظاهره. والحقيقة أن هذا العنف متبادل رغم أن كل طرف يدعي أنه من طرف واحد، وإن قلَّت عدد الاعتداءات المسيحية عن عدد الاعتداءات المسلمة، فذلك لقلة نسبتهم في المجتمع عن نسبة المسلمين، ولسبب آخر يُحسد عليه المسيحيون، وهو أن الكنيسة القبطية الأرثوذكسية هي المؤسسة الوحيدة في مصر التي لا يُعين رئيسها بقرار من أمن الدولة، لدرجة أن السادات في قمة غطرسته وصدامه مع البابا شنودة لم يستطع حبسه أو عزله، بينما حبس الشيخ كشك والشيخ المحلاوي وقال عنه مقولته الشهيرة: (مرمي في السجن زي الكلب). ولذلك فإن للبابا شنودة استقلاليته، ومرجعيته الموثوق بها من قِبَلِ مسيحيي مصر، واحترامه من قِبل كل المسلمين المصريين (ربما يحترمونه أكثر من بعض أقباط المهجر الذين يهاجمونه الآن)، لذلك فإن الكل كان يتطلع إليه عندما تحدث مثل هذه الفتن، والرجل دائما يدعو أبناء طائفته للصبر علي المكاره، وعدم الانفعال حفاظا علي الوحدة الوطنية (ولكنه للأسف كلما وقعت فتنة في الفترة الأخيرة اعتزل الناس معتكفا للعبادة في وادي النطرون)، بينما يفتقد المسلمون في مصر مرجعية دينية رسمية موثوق بها طالما ظل شيخ الأزهر ومفتي الديار المصرية ورئيس جامعة الأزهر مُعَيَّنين بقرار من أمن الدولة.
2- تقاعس الدولة وأجهزتها الأمنية عن أداء دورها تجاه الاعتداءات الطائفية علي الأقباط، سواء رجع ذلك إلي عدم الكفاءة أو إلي تواطؤ من عناصر داخل تلك الأجهزة موالية للتيارات الفاشية بالمجتمع. وأنا في الحقيقة يدهشني أصحاب هذا الرأي لأن الشرطة المصرية لا تؤدي أي دور إلا حماية الحاكم فقط. وإذا قامت أية مشاجرة - حتي بين أبناء الدين الواحد - فلن تتدخل الشرطة عملا بمبدأ (أن هؤلاء صيع ويجب أن نتركهم يُخَلِّصون علي بعض)، ثم تتدخل بعد انتهاء المشاجرة للقبض علي من بقي حيا وإحصاء الضحايا والخسائر، وهي لا تضطهد الأقباط فقط بل كل المصريين، والأقباط جزء من المصريين لذلك عليهم أن يتحملوا جزءا من الاضطهاد عملا بمبدأ المساواة في المواطنة. ولكي أوضح ما أقصد سأروي موقفا شخصيا تعرضت له. دخلت قسم شرطة سيدي جابر بالإسكندرية لأبلغ عن سرقة سيارتي، وكنت أظن أن القسم سينقلب رأسا علي عقب، فلقد سرقت سيارة بأكملها في وضح النهار في منطقة من أرقي مناطق الإسكندرية، لكني فوجئت بمدي التجاهل وسوء المعاملة، فقد كان علي أن أنتظر السيد ضابط المباحث حتي يعود من جولاته علي التجمعات الانتخابية، وحتي ينتهي - بعد عودته - من اتصالاته بالسادة ضباط أمن الدولة ليعطيهم التقارير عما شاهد. ولم يقف الأمر عند حد طول الانتظار، بل أنه عاملني كمتهم، فأخذ بطاقتي لمدة يوم كامل وأجبرني علي الجلوس داخل سيارة البوكس (كما يجلس المتهمون أو المخبرون) لكي أطلعه علي المكان الذي تركت فيه سيارتي قبل سرقتها، ورفض أن أركب جواره أو أستوقف تاكسيا. وإلي الآن لا أعرف لماذا تمت معاملتي بهذا الشكل علما أنني لست مسيحيا. ثم شاء القدر أن أدخل نفس القسم مع شخص أمريكي (مسيحي) للإبلاغ عن فقد جواز سفره، وفوجئت بنفسي أجلس في مكتب مأمور القسم الذي يسألنا بنفسه إن كنا نريد شايا أو قهوة، كما قام رئيس مباحث القسم بكتابة المحضر بنفسه.
3- شعور المتدين بإهانة دينه. ولاختبار صحة هذه الإجابة سأقارن بين ثلاثة مواقف تعرض فيها المتدين لهذا الشعور: الموقف الأول في الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية، خلال إحدي جولات باراك أوباما المرشح للرئاسة الأمريكية عندما رفض التقاط صورة له وخلفه بنات محجبات، وعلي الفور قامت قناة (سي إن إن) بعمل لقاءات متعددة مع محللين سياسيين من مختلف الاتجاهات السياسية والدينية، وكان واضحا شعور المسلمين في أمريكا بإهانة دينهم، بل إن بعضهم هدد بالتراجع عن تأييد أوباما لأنه في حال فوزه سيكون رئيسا لكل الأمريكان بمن فيهم المسلمون. لكن الملاحظ أن أحدا لم يهدد أوباما بالقتل، ولم تخرج مظاهرات تقذف مندوبيه بالطوب. لماذا؟ لأن اعتراضهم وصل لهدفه، بل أنه أجبر أوباما بعد ساعات قليلة علي الاعتذار، وفي اليوم التالي حرص علي التقاط صور له مع فتيات محجبات، وانتهي الأمر.
الموقف الثاني في مصر ، عندما رأي المسيحيون أن إسلام وفاء قسطنطين حدث مدبر لإهانة دينهم، فتظاهروا داخل كاتدرائية العباسية واعتدوا علي رجال الشرطة عندما حاولوا منعهم من الخروج من الكاتدرائية. الموقف الثالث في مصر أيضا، عندما رأي المسلمون في المسرحية التي عرضت داخل كنيسة مارجرجس بمحرم بك بالإسكندرية إهانة لدينهم، فتجمعوا حول الكنيسة واعتدوا عليها.
فلماذا يلجأ المتدينون في مصر إلي العنف عند الشعور بإهانة دينهم؟ هل السبب هو دينهم؟
لا أعتقد أن الدين المسيحي هو السبب، فالمسيح يقول في الإنجيل: من ضربك علي خدك الأيمن فأدر له خدك الأيسر . ولا أعتقد كذلك أن الدين الإسلامي هو السبب، لأن القرآن لم يشرع القتال للمسلمين إلا إذا بدأهم به العدو، بل وينهاهم عن أن يكونوا هم البادئون بالاعتداء، وقاتلوا في سبيل الله الذين يقاتلوكم ولا تعتدوا إن الله لا يحب المعتدين . ولو كان الدين سبب العنف، فلماذا لم يلجأ إليه المسلمون في أمريكا عند شعورهم بإهانة دينهم بينما يلجأ له المسلمون والمسيحيون في مصر عند شعورهم بنفس الشعور؟ أعتقد لأنهم لا يجدون منافذ التعبير التي تنقل صوتهم، وتفتح جراحهم ليخرج منها الصديد عندما تفتح حوارا حرا لمناقشة مثل هذه الإهانات، ولكن للأسف فإن منافذ التعبير في مصر اقتصرت علي ثلاثة: منافذ حكومية لا تتحدث إلا عن فخامة الرئيس. منافذ خاصة تنشغل بالصراع بين تامر حسني وعمرو دياب. منافذ طائفية تساهم بشكل كبير في تغذية الفتنة الطائفية.
ولعل السبب الرئيسي في هذا الوضع هو غياب الديمقراطية التي تقوم علي مؤسسات المجتمع المدني، وتفسح المجال للجمعيات الأهلية لتقوم بدورها في التعبير عن الشارع، عندئذ يكون لكل طائفة من يمثلها تمثيلا حقيقا ويطالب بحقوقها ويعبر عن غضبها بشكل سلمي فعال، وهذا هو سبب قوة الأحزاب والمنظمات الأهلية في الغرب، أنها تمثل قاعدة عريضة يحسب لها حساب. أما المصري إذا أهين فليس أمامه إلا أن يضرب رأسه في الحائط ؛ فليس له عضو مجلس نيابي يمثله، ولا حزب يدافع عنه، ولا حتي رجل دين يثق في مرجعيته. وبالتالي سوف يشعر بالغربة داخل وطنه، ويفقد انتماءه الي البلد، ويوجه انتماءه نحو جماعته الصغيرة (الدينية أو القروية أو الكروية)ويتعصب لها. وعندما يشعر بإهانة دينه لا ينتظر رد فعل الازهر أو دار الإفتاء. نستخلص من هذا كله أن السبب الرئيسي للعنف الطائفي في مصر هو غياب الديقراطية، وليس أدل علي ذلك من أن العنف الطائفي لم يظهر في مصر قبل ثورة يوليو (التي قضت علي الديمقراطية المصرية وأقامت حكما عسكريا ثم بوليسيا)رغم أن المجتمع المصري كان يضم ثلاث طوائف دينية مختلفة (مسلمة ومسيحية ويهودية).
ثانيا: لماذا يزداد العنف الطائفي؟
إذا كان غياب الديمقراطية هو السبب الرئيسي وراء العنف الطائفي في مصر فلماذا لم يظهر هذا العنف منذ قيام ثورة يوليو وظل مكتوما حتي أواخر حكم السادات؟ لأن السبب الرئيسي لأي ظاهرة يكون كفيلا بخلقها حتي تأتي مجموعة عوامل مساعدة تهيأ لهذه الظاهرة أن تندلع، ولعل من أهم عوامل اندلاع ظاهرة العنف الطائفي في مصر ما يلي: ضعف الدولة الحالية في مصر بسبب فقدانها لشرعيتها في الداخل وعجز قادتها الذين شاخوا فوق مقاعدهم (إنهم عاجزون حتي عن ممارسة مزيد من القمع)وتعرضهم لضغوط عالمية كبري، مما جعلها تتحول من البقرة الضاحكة (كما كنا نسمي رأس هذه الدولة)إلي البقرة التي وقعت، كما يقول المثل الشعبي (إذا وقعت البقرة كثُرت سكاكينها )، فلقد وقعت دولتنا ورفع كل منا سكينه علي رقبتها، لا ليقتلها بل ليساومها علي مطالبه، وهي للأسف مطالب طائفية أو فئوية. فمن هذه المطالب الطائفية : الأقباط: وأنا أتفهم بل وأتبني مطالبهم بشأن تدريس التاريخ القبطي في المدارس كجزء من تاريخ مصر، وأن نكف عن عادتنا في تزوير التاريخ. بل إنني أعتقد أن هذا مطلب وطني لا يخص الأقباط وحدهم. كما أفهم مطالبهم الأخري بشأن حرية بناء الكنائس وترميمها. لكن تزعجني حقا مطالب مايكل منير الأمريكي من أصل مصري (ولا أقول المصري الحاصل علي الجنسية الأمريكية) بتخصيص دوائر انتخابية لا يرشح فيها سوي الأقباط، فهل هذه هي الديمقراطية؟ هل مصر مثل أمريكا التي ما زالت حتي الآن مقسمة إلي مناطق للبيض وآخري للسود؟ هل مصر مثل أمريكا التي لم تعط السود حق التصويت في انتخاباتها إلا في ستينيات القرن العشرين (ومع ذلك نصفها بأنها أعرق ديمقراطيات العالم)؟ بالطبع لا لأن المجلس النيابي في مصر منذ إنشائه أول مرة في ستينيات القرن التاسع عشر كان يضم نوابا مسلمين وأقباطا. كما أزعجني تصريحه بعد لقائه بجمال مبارك أنه سيؤيد أي رئيس يخلف مبارك الأب إذا كان سيعطي الأقباط حقوقهم كاملة، في إشارة إلي صفقة بينه وبين مبارك الابن علي تأييده ودعمه (خصوصا لدي الإدارة الأمريكية التي يحتاجها جمال ليرث مصر) مقابل منح الأقباط مزيدا من الحقوق.
كما أزعجني تأييد الأقباط لقانون الإرهاب الذي تريد الحكومة المصرية سنه بحجة أن أعرق الدول الديمقراطية طبقته بعد أحداث الحادي عشر من سبتمبر لحماية ديقراطيتها من الإرهابيين، دون أن يسألوا أنفسهم: لماذا ستطبقه مصر؟ (فأي قانون تحتاجه مصر وهي محكومة منذ ما يزيد علي نصف قرن بقانون الطوارئ؟) ولحماية ماذا إذا كانت مصر دولة غير ديمقراطية؟ ولحماية من إذا كانت الدولة لا تحمي إلا حاكمها؟ (لماذا يظن الأقباط أن هذا القانون سيحميهم رغم أن ضربات الإرهاب أصابت المصريين كلهم ولم تقتصر علي الأقباط وحدهم، بل إن معظم ضحايا الهجمات الإرهابية علي مصر كانوا مسلمين؟) وكيف ستطبقه؟ (هل يثق المصريون في رجال الشرطة الذين سيطبقون هذا القانون من أجل المزيد من إحكام قبضتهم علي البلد؟). كما أزعجتني مطالبة الأقباط للإعلام المصري بالشفافية في نقل أخبار الفتنة الطائفية، ولم يطالبوه بالشفافية في كل الأحوال. فلماذا يتقوقع الأقباط علي أنفسهم لهذه الدرجة ؟ النوبيون: وأنا وغيري كثيرون - بالفعل أحترم النوبيين وثقافتهم لا كمتحف بل كحياة تُمارس وأخلاق تُسلك، ولكني دهشت عندما رأيت صديقي الأديب الرائع حجاج حسن أدول في قناة العربية في برنامجها السياسي (نقطة نظام) وليس في برنامجها الثقافي (روافد)، والذي أدهشني أكثر أنني عرفته عن قرب لفترة من الزمن في ندوات ومقاهي الإسكندرية بل وفي بيته. ومع ذلك لم أسمع منه من قبل ما سمعته منه علي قناة العربية وما أقرأه له علي الإنترنت الآن، فقد سمعته من قبل يتحدث عن تضرر النوبيين من جراء الأخطاء التي وقعت فيها الدولة أثناء تهجيرهم لبناء السد العالي علي أرض قراهم، وحرصه علي جمع التراث النوبي خوفا من اندثاره، لكني لم أسمعه أبدا يتحدث عن اضطهاد مصري ضد النوبيين، أو عن مقارنة الشتات النوبي في محافظات مصر بالشتات الفلسطيني، أو عن مطالبه التي من أهمها: عودة النوبيين إلي موطنهم مثلما أعادت الدولة المصرية مهجري قناة السويس إلي مدينتهم أن تكون اللغة النوبية لغة ثانية في مصر محاكمة المسؤولين الذين أجرموا بحق الشعب النوبي أمام محاكم دولية.
وأنا أود أن أذكره بأن أحدا في مصر لم يعترض علي حكم السادات بسبب لون بشرته الأسود، بينما أمريكا الآن مقلوبة رأسا علي عقب لأن أحد المرشحين لرئاستها أسود، وقد وصلته خطابات تهديد بالقتل من جماعات البيض المتعصبين. وأسأله: هل إذا حملتُ أمتعتي وتوجهت إلي منطقة النوبة لأقيم فيها سيمنعني المسئولون في مصر؟ وإذا كانت الإجابة بـ (لا) فلماذا ينتظر النوبيون الدولة كي تعيدهم إلي أرضهم؟ أما إذا كانت الإجابة بـ (نعم) فإنها ليست مشكلة النوبيين وحدهم بل مشكلة كل المصريين. وكذلك بالنسبة لتغيير أسماء القري النوبية إلي أسماء نوبية فإنها قضية كل المصريين الذين يجب أن يقفوا ضد تزوير التاريخ بكل أشكاله. أما حديثه عن عدم وجود مذيعة أو مذيع أسود في مصر فالرد واضح، أنه لا يستطيع أي مصري مهما كان لونه أو دينه أو مؤهلاته أن يعمل مذيعا في التليفزيون الرسمي المصري بدون واسطة كبيرة جدا . وأخيرا أود أن أهمس في أذنه: أنا حزين جدا منذ قرأت مقولتك عن اضطهاد مصر للنوبيين، حزين لأنني بالفعل أحبك، رغم أنني مصري، ورغم أن بشرتي ليست سمراء!
الإخوان: وكلنا يعرف أنهم يساومون الدولة للإفراج عن معتقليهم وإفساح المجال لهم في النقابات والمجالس النيابية، وأخشي ما أخشاه أن يكون المقابل سكوتهم عن توريث الوطن. ولكني أقول لهؤلاء: إذا نجحت مساوماتكم وورث آل مبارك مصر فلن يغفر لكم التاريخ !
أما المطالب الفئوية التي ظهرت فجأة منذ سقوط عصا سليمان من يد الدولة المصرية، فإنها مطالب تتعجب كيف سكت الشعب عنها لمدة تزيد علي نصف قرن، فمعظمها مطالب بخصوص أوضاع غير طبيعية رسختها ثورة يوليو، مثل : مطالب القضاة باستقلال السلطة القضائية عن السلطة التنفيذية. مطالب أساتذة الجامعة بانتخاب عمداء الكليات ورؤساء الجامعات ومجلس إدارة ناديهم، وإنهاء دورالأمن في الجامعة. مطالب الصحافيين بإطلاق حرية إصدار الصحف، وإلغاء القوانين التي تبيح حبس الصحفي في جرائم النشر، وتطبيق قوانين الخصخصة علي وسائل الإعلام الحكومية لإلغاء دور الدولة في الإعلام.
مطالب عمال شركات العام بتحسين رواتبهم وعلاواتهم بما يوازي حالة التضخم في الاقتصاد المصري. مطالب سكان المناطق العشوائية بحقهم في شرب مياه غير ملوثة فيما أطلق عليه مظاهرات العطش. لعلها الوحيدة حركة كفاية التي لها مطالب عامة لمصر كلها، ومن اللافت للنظر أن أول منسق عام لها كان قبطيا (جورج إسحاق) استطاع أن يخرج من شرنقته ليتحدث باسم مصر كلها، فالتف المصريون حوله بجميع طوائفهم وتياراتهم. ولعل هذه المطالب الفئوية قد تتحد يوما ما، لتشكل مطالب عامة تحاول أن توقف انحدار مصر إلي الحضيض في الوقت الذي يتقدم فيه غيرنا.
وليس أدل علي أن ضعف الدول هو من أهم العوامل المساعدة علي اندلاع العنف الطائفي من تتبع هذه الحقب التاريخية : الحقبة الناصرية: لم يظهر فيها عنف طائفي بسبب قوة الدولة وقيامها بمشروع وطني وحّد كل طوائف الشعب حوله. الحقبة الساداتية: لم يظهر العنف الطائفي إلا في النصف الثاني من هذه الحقبة، بعد انتهاء مشروع التحرير الوطني، وبدأ ترهل الدولة. الحقبة المباركية: بدأت بمحاولة خلق مشروع وطني، فتخبطت بين محاربة الفساد والإفراج عن المعتقلين السياسيين وإعادة مصر إلي حظيرة العرب وسد ديون مصر، ولكن بعد فشل كل هذه المشاريع لعدم جدية الدولة فيها، لم تفلح أية ديكورات أو مساحيق في إخفاء عجز الدولة، ولذلك عاد العنف الطائفي يطل بوجهه القبيح. أطفال الشوارع المشردون: نعم، إنني أعتقد إن العامل الثاني من عوامل اندلاع العنف الطائفي في مصر هم أطفال الشوارع المشردون، وهذا ليس هروبا من الأسباب الحقيقية، فالكل يعرف أنهم قنبلة موقوتة في مصر، وأن خروجهم من شرنقتهم سيمثل كارثة تحرق اليابس والأخضر، وأنا مقتنع أنهم قد بدأوا الخروج، فمن الذي شهر السيوف ورفع السنج وقطع الطرق وألقي البنزين علي النار المشتعلة في محرم بك عام 2005 والعصافرة عام 2006 والمحلة 2008 (رغم أن أحداث المحلة ليست طائفية)؟ يجمع كل شهود العيان أنهم رجال غرباء لم يرهم أحد من قبل في هذه المناطق، وأن (شكلهم وحش). إنهم يخرجون كيأجوج مأجوج بين فترة وأخري لينتقموا من هذا المجتمع الذي تجاهلهم، وليحكموا الشارع لساعات، ثم يعودون إلي مخابئهم، ولكنهم يتحينون الفرصة المناسبة كلما وقعت مظاهرات أو اعتصامات أو اعتراضات أو اعتداءات أو مشاحنات ليستتروا بها. والويل لنا جميعا من خروجهم الكبير.
ذهب وفد من المنطقة السكنية المحيطة بالكنيسة؛ للتفاوض مع قساوستها لمعرفة وضع تلك التي أسلمت.. طب وإيه يعني!!
في هذا الوقت التفّ ناس حول الكنيسة، وبدأوا يرشقونها بالحجارة.. ليييييييييه كده؟!!
فقام شباب الكنيسة بتبادلهم بالرشق.. لأ كده الموضوع كِبر أوي!!
بعدها -وغير معروف السبب- تحوّلت الحجارة إلى قنابل مولوتوف، وبعد قليل تبادل لإطلاق النار من أسطح المنازل المحيطة بمنطقة الكنيسة.. والله ما عارف أعلّق وأقول إيه؟؟؟
انتشرت الأخبار في كل جهة بأن تبادل إطلاق النار يتم بين سلفيين وشباب مسيحيين!!
أليس ما سبق هو ملخص للسيناريوهات المختلفة التي رُويت عن حادث كنيسة مارمينا بإمبابة؟ ألم تلاحظ شيئًا في تسلسل الأحداث؟ أليست هذه الأحداث بتسلسلها شبيهة بأحداث سابقة مع اختلاف الأسباب؟ ألا تلاحظ أنه في كل الأحداث ترد الأخبار بأن المعركة تدور بين سلفيين ومسيحيين؟ ألا تلاحظ أن كل الأحداث الشبيهة بحادث كنيسة مارمينا يبدأ فيها التراشق بالحجارة ثم التراشق بقنابل الملوتوف ثم تبادل لإطلاق النار؟
هاااا.. فكّر شوية.. تسلسل الأحداث.. هذا التسلسل لم يُذكّرك بشيء؟ لو عرفت تبقى ذكي.. وأنا متأكّد إنك ذكي جدًا؛ لأنك باختصار شديد.... أنت مصري..
طب هابسّطها لك..
فاكر أيام ثورة 25 يناير؟!!
فاكر يوم الأربعاء 2 فبراير 2011؟!!
أيوه.. تمام هو زي ما إنت قلت كده.. اليوم بتاع "معركة الجمل".. أو يوم "الأربعاء الدامي"..
طب افتكر معايا هو إيه اللي حصل فيه..
سيبك من موضوع اقتحام الميدان من قبل بلطجية يمتطون جمالاً وخيولاً.. أنا قصدي إيه اللي حصل بعد كده؟!!
مش الموضوع بدأ بناس كانت مؤيّدة لمبارك، بعد كده الناس دي بدأت ترشق حجارة ورُخام على الثوّار في ميدان التحرير... وبعد كده بقليل تحوّلت الحجارة إلى قنابل مولوتوف.. بعد كده اتحوّل المولوتوف لضرب نار من على أسطح العمارات السكنية المحيطة بالميدان وأحد الفنادق القريبة من الميدان.. وأدّى ذلك إلى استشهاد أبطال الثورة.. وإصابة أعداد كثيرة.. مش هو ده اللي حصل؟!!
هاااا عرفت الحل؟!!
باختصار.. وعلشان ماطوّلش عليك.. مش فيه تشابه شديد بين أحداث يوم الأربعاء الدامي بميدان التحرير مع أحداث كنيسة مارمينا بإمبابة؟!! وكنيسة صول بأطفيح وكل أحداث الفتنة الطائفية التي أعقبت ثورة 25 يناير؟!!
طب إحنا عرفنا تقريبا مين اللي كانوا مسلّطين البلطجية يعملوا كده يوم الأربعاء الدامي في ميدان التحرير.. وهما دلوقتي قدام القضاء.. وعرفنا برضه إنهم عملوا كده علشان كانوا عايزين الثورة تفشل.. ويستمر نظام مبارك في حكم البلد وسرقتها ونهبها؛ علشان هما مستفيدين طبعًا من السرقة والنهب ده!!
وبكده.. أكيد عرفنا برضه مين اللي كانوا مخططين ومدبرين لأحداث امبارح قدام كنيسة مارمينا.. وكل الأحداث اللي زيّها.. وأكيد كمان عرفنا هو غرضهم من ده.
وأفكّرك بكلمة مبارك قبل ما يتنحّى: "عليكم الاختيار بين الفوضى والأمن".
هاااااا.. عرفت مين اللي ورا الأحداث دي؟!!
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Possibly time to use a law [incitement to violence]against those who brought all those people out onto the streets. and if it is a Muslim sheik, well sorry, close the mosque. Same with Churches of course.
And maybe religious leaders need to be open about how their religion deals with percieved offence. And point out that 10th Century responses aren't really appropriate these days.
'Punishing' members of a religious group, kidnappings, religious dishonour killings, burning churches and so on is anarchic, reckless, and isn't really backed up by any religious teachings I've ever heard of.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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-People a rumor goes out that a woman is being held by the church.
-Muslims flock in the hundreds to the church.
-Words are exchanged between Muslims and copts followed by stone throwing.
-Suddenly molotov cocktails were thrown.
-Then gun fire erupts by shooters on roof tops.
What does this remind you of? It was exactly what happened on Wednesday February 02,11 in Tahrir Square which investigations revealed that it was organized.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Thanks. Hmmm. And apparently, according to Al Jazz, it was simply a rumour.
Shooters on rooftops are snipers are they not? It does smell like a set up, but who knows these days?
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Some people are clearly flaming the fire. Who are they exactly? There was always some level of tension between Copts and Muslims but were mostly relegated to the Saeed. The confrontations were mostly over petty issues. Most of people on each side were family members and or part of clans. This latest incident in Cairo is another dynamic. It does appear organized, I mean how is it possible that people can just amass like that so quickly? And not only that, but also mass to confront to the death? These are anything but ordinary people.
Amr Moussa is doing his candidacy bit by blaming Mubarak and the former regime for failing to foster better ties between these two communities. Christians were complaining about lack of effort by the government in apprehending those responsible. Latest news is 28 people have been rounded up and are suspects in igniting the violence.
So we'll see. Who do you think the culprits are behind the violence?
Who ever it is, they should be made an example out of. Maximum penalties with full media publicity every step of the way. Hopefully a big fish is convicted.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Woman at centre of Imbaba violence appears on TV
*She looks like she hasn't slept in over a week*
'Abeer Talaat' gives interview claiming she was held captive by the church after converting to Islam but regrets the weekend's chaos
A woman claiming to be Abeer Talaat, the woman whose alleged conversion from Christianity to Islam sparked the violence that started Saturday in Imbaba, appeared on TV for the first time yesterday saying she regretted the events. In a phone interview with Egypt's Al Tahrir channel, Abeer said she converted from Christianity to Islam last September and left her village in Assiut, Upper Egypt, filing for divorce from her husband before hiding in Cairo.
Abeer said she then met Yasin Thabet and agreed to marry him when her divorce came into effect. But weeks ago someone reported her to the church and she was taken captive.
She claimed to have been held in different church-owned properties across Egypt before ending up in Imbaba. Priests and nuns tried to convince her to re-embrace Christianity and return to her husband, said Abeer, but she was not subjected to any violence.
On Saturday she said she heard the unrest in Imbaba but was locked in a neighbourhood house, accompanied by a nun from the church and unable to see outside. Abeer claims the nun suddenly unlocked the door and told her: "Go, we are innocent from your blood."
Abeer said she is now hiding in a safe place, that she didn't expect any of what happened and wants to live in peace like anyone else. She said she regrets the events, adding, "If I knew all of those innocent people would die and be injured I would have sacrificed myself."
In an interview published yesterday on the Al-Gamaa Al-Islamiya website, Abeer gave further details of her life with her Christian husband. She said he used to beat and torture her, prompting her to run away and stay with her family. Although she said she wanted to report her husband to the police, her father refused to avoid scandal.
Abeer said she learned about Islam from her colleagues at caligraphy institute, visiting Al-Azhar with a co-worker where she converted to Islam and changed her name to Asmaa.
She said she hid in a small village near the Delta governorate of Benha but someone reported her to her family, who jailed her in the Virgin Mary Monastery in Assiut in March. She claimed she was then moved between churches and monasteries in Assiut before reaching the main cathedral in Abbasiya, where clergy tried to persuade her to return to Christianity.
Abeer said she was afraid and told the Church she would re-embrace Christianity so they would leave her alone.
She ended her interview by asking the ruling Supreme Council of the Armed Forces and the Father of Imbaba church to leave her alone: "I want to live my life and raise my children. Enough bloodshed - who cares if I am Muslim or Christian?"
Social networking tools Facebook and Twitter, almost humour-free for the last two days, didn't miss the chance to make fun of Abeer's dramatic reappearance.
A Twitter-user called Laila said: "Abeer is an example of national unity. She is married to a Christian and going out with a Muslim." Another user, Ahmed, added: "Salafists are so cool, they don't mind sexual freedom. She is having a relationship with a Muslim." Meanwhile, Zeinab asked, "So the history books will have Camilia and Abeer as the representatives of the revolution now?"
Someone called Samir tweeted, "This is shameful, every woman gets beaten by her husband runs away and converts. In the good old days she used to kill her husband and cut him in pieces and put him in plastic bags."
Other Facebook and Twitter users said they didn't believe her story. One user said she didn't sound Christian, others that if she was kidnapped she should have reported it to the police rather than appearing on TV. Others wondered what had happened to Mubarak's trial and downplayed the importance of the whole Abeer story.
posted
Some guy on Al Jazz was suggesting a religious guy on the tv [or maybe radio] was raving anti Christian stuff. Really, I've heard some of these people, yelling in the mosques on Fridays [and yeah, I asked for translation] and some can be a bit irresponsible.I believe in some places, in HM's time, police used to monitor this kind of thing. Who knows? I'm wondering if maybe all this time they really do hate each other, and now feel free to express it... Maybe need a campaign of interfaith get togethers, and serious look at attitudes here.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Some guy on Al Jazz was suggesting a religious guy on the tv [or maybe radio] was raving anti Christian stuff. Really, I've heard some of these people, yelling in the mosques on Fridays [and yeah, I asked for translation] and some can be a bit irresponsible.I believe in some places, in HM's time, police used to monitor this kind of thing. Who knows? I'm wondering if maybe all this time they really do hate each other, and now feel free to express it... Maybe need a campaign of interfaith get togethers, and serious look at attitudes here.
You live in Egypt what is your opinion? I've lived in Egypt and know both Muslims and Christians. I've never sensed animosity. I've dated Christians, my Egyptian Muslims friends dated Christian chicks, no one cared even though it was on the down low as far as their neighborhoods went, meaning we dropped them off a few blocks from where they lived, but that was more about their neighbors and family, which is also the case for Muslim chicks. But the places we hung out at it was so what. And this is as sensitive as it gets → women dating men of other faiths ← I knew a Christian chick who lived with a Palestinian/Egyptian dude. She's Christian he's Muslim, living together doing their thing.
A friend of mine introduced me to his friends who were both Christian and Muslim, and unless looking at their wrist, I couldn't tell the difference. They used to always joke, and some of them hiding from the authorities (draft dodgers) was their concern. It was nothing about Islam or Christianity. Nothing like that at all. The only thing I've heard was a joke “sham al naseem” → it's a holiday, “the smell of spring/breeze”, a muslim dude told me to Christians it has a different significance as that holiday commemorated when Prophet Muhammed (saw) passed away, he said it with a smile. BTW it's baseless.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that dialogue is necessary, and also accountability as I mentioned in a previous post.
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posted
Well, nobody I know has a Christian/Muslim problem, but most tend to say it's a 'lower class' [sorry I hate that term] thing. Grubbing about on the bottom of the ladder, and Muslims are inclined to imply that Christians yell 'sectarian!' every time there is a dispute;[I checked this out actually, it's not strictly true. But prerevolution the security police came down hard and fast on Christian/Muslim problems!] and in the poorer areas the Christians do tend to hang out together, so there can be a bit of gang stuff. I can pretty much guarantee though, that if your Christian friend with the Muslim boyfriend was from a much lower socioeconomic group [God, that sounds worse than 'lower class'!] she would be toast.I can't write on here the things I've heard about repercussions of straying from the Coptic path [and seen the video ] Everyone tells us they respect each others' religions, but you know, underneath it all, it wouldn't surprise me if deep inside, the big majority of Egyptians [who are poor and unsophisticated] do despise persons of another faith.These vile incidents need to be taken seriously.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Well, nobody I know has a Christian/Muslim problem, but most tend to say it's a 'lower class' [sorry I hate that term] thing. Grubbing about on the bottom of the ladder, and Muslims are inclined to imply that Christians yell 'sectarian!' every time there is a dispute;[I checked this out actually, it's not strictly true. But prerevolution the security police came down hard and fast on Christian/Muslim problems!] and in the poorer areas the Christians do tend to hang out together, so there can be a bit of gang stuff. I can pretty much guarantee though, that if your Christian friend with the Muslim boyfriend was from a much lower socioeconomic group [God, that sounds worse than 'lower class'!] she would be toast.I can't write on here the things I've heard about repercussions of straying from the Coptic path [and seen the video ] Everyone tells us they respect each others' religions, but you know, underneath it all, it wouldn't surprise me if deep inside, the big majority of Egyptians [who are poor and unsophisticated] do despise persons of another faith.These vile incidents need to be taken seriously.
The way Mubarak's regime dealt with these problems is part of the problem. It was always with the “stick”, and it's neither civilized nor constructive. It actually breeds resentment because such an approach lacks a key component – resolve, and without closure, resentment grows. Egypt is at the cross roads, and it is obvious that overcoming a brutal regime is not their only demon but also religious tolerance even if it's at the lower class as you put it. I truly believe Egypt will overcome, and I truly believe a better Egypt will arise. Let's dig deeper before Mubarak. There was always peace, as the Arabic article I posted highlighted this fact.
I've just read a beautiful piece on the calm in Imbaba, where Muslims and Christians have publicly expressed they feel safe, that they have lived/worked in the neighborhood with no problems, that they both have Muslim and Christian friends. This is normalcy, what happened in Imbaba is an aberration (Cairo), regardless of the of the rifts that people try to sow within Egyptian society. (Here's the article: http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/11836/Egypt/Politics-/Fragile-calm-descends-on-Imbaba.aspx
Yes it is a very serious matter and should be investigated seriously. I expect accountability and transparency, and without both then damn us all.
The Christian chick - she didn't have a life of prosperity, she was basically forced out her home by her step-father, and eventually moved in with her man.
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posted
Sometimes Exiiled, you can be very wise. But maybe too much of an optimist. Sectarian strife, as 'they' call it, is currently a smart political tool. Not in Egypt, but the world press [ok Western press] jump on these incidents, suggesting besieged followers of Jesus's love and peace creed, being bullied by a vast majority of bloodthirsty Muslims. The Orthodox Christians here in my experience, do not remotely resemble the kind of Christians I was used to in Europe.Such matters of Copts converting to Islam are inevitably going to become even more common and the Coptic church being free to 'deal with them' is going to cause problems, dontcha think? Actually, I was told by a Copt, [and this may be wrong] that the LA Times was paying [PAYING!]around $6000 for reports of 'persecution' of Coptic Christians by big bad Muslims.
I'd like to reiterate that I know loads of Egyptians who have no problem with working with, or having friendships with those of other religions [they won't countenance marriage between them of their daughters though!]
This incident was apparently triggered by the abduction of a woman who had freely chosen to change her religion. This should be illegal, but I bet it isn't. No doubt this would happen occasionally with a Muslim girl, and once again it would be ignored by law enforcement. A hot potato. Thank God the Grand Mufti has spoken at last. I hope his words are heard by everyone in Egypt.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Sometimes Exiiled, you can be very wise. But maybe too much of an optimist. Sectarian strife, as 'they' call it, is currently a smart political tool. Not in Egypt, but the world press [ok Western press] jump on these incidents, suggesting besieged followers of Jesus's love and peace creed, being bullied by a vast majority of bloodthirsty Muslims. The Orthodox Christians here in my experience, do not remotely resemble the kind of Christians I was used to in Europe.Such matters of Copts converting to Islam are inevitably going to become even more common and the Coptic church being free to 'deal with them' is going to cause problems, dontcha think? Actually, I was told by a Copt, [and this may be wrong] that the LA Times was paying [PAYING!]around $6000 for reports of 'persecution' of Coptic Christians by big bad Muslims.
I'd like to reiterate that I know loads of Egyptians who have no problem with working with, or having friendships with those of other religions [they won't countenance marriage between them of their daughters though!]
This incident was apparently triggered by the abduction of a woman who had freely chosen to change her religion. This should be illegal, but I bet it isn't. No doubt this would happen occasionally with a Muslim girl, and once again it would be ignored by law enforcement. A hot potato. Thank God the Grand Mufti has spoken at last. I hope his words are heard by everyone in Egypt.
I believe in Egyptian people and I believe they can overcome these contentious times. They have a lot on their plate and so far they are doing okay, especially considering this critical juncture in their history (revolution). As for the LA Times there will always be conspiracy theories. At the end of the day the western press won't have a say locally but will manipulate minds outside of Egypt as they see fit. What's most important is how Egyptian Christians and and Egyptian Muslims treat each other. This is something that Egyptians have to sort out themselves for the betterment of their country. And if believing in them is deemed an optimist then I am very proud.
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Going to bed now. Two Stellas, good book, Unbearable lightness of being, goodnight. Ha! keep the faith. Praise God and pass the ammunition. I just gotta say though that western press bias really does affect the perception of Egypt, and is inevitably going to affect the tourism business.And is.
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Egyptian Copts protest in Cairo following the burning of a Christian church in Imbaba district of the city Egyptian newspapers have published angry comment on the Muslim-Christians clashes in recent days in Egypt. More than 180 people were wounded in clashes on Saturday after conservative Muslims attacked a Coptic church in the Imbaba area.
Both official and independent newspapers fear that remnants of the ousted Mubarak government, religious extremists or unspecified foreign forces are trying to undermine moves to democracy by stoking communal violence.
Several papers accuse the authorities of leniency towards "thugs", and one demanded the death sentence for desecration of places of worship.
Jalal Duwidar in the official daily Al-Akhbar "Egypt is in serious danger… What Egypt is currently witnessing is the normal result of chaos, slackness, carelessness and softness towards thugs and extremists... It is no longer a secret that harming national unity and driving a wedge between the sects of the nation is… the strategic goal of external enemies… They do not want to see Egypt standing on its feet once again as a strong and dignified country which restores its civilization and which is capable of resisting those who have ambitions and want to control and dominate our Arab and Islamic nation."
Ahmad Rajab in Al-Akhbar "The situation requires drafting an urgent law stipulating the execution of whoever damages, sabotages or burns the place of worship of any heavenly religion."
Official daily Al-Ahram "What is going on will take Egypt to the abyss of chaos and turn it into another Somalia or a new Afghanistan... those who tamper with Egypt's safety and security... are committing high treason against religion and the revolution."
Fathi Mahmud in the official Al-Ahram "We will not be able to control aspects of sectarian sedition, or expect the return of tourism to its normal rates, or attract any new foreign investment to help us face the economic crisis unless security and stability return to the Egyptian street."
Official daily Al-Jumhuriyah "Throughout history, Egypt has always resisted all conspiracies and conflicts which targeted its national unity… But here are the forces opposed to the glorious 25 January Revolution trying once again, but they will never succeed due to the awareness of the Egyptian people and the strength of their unity."
Amr Hamzawi in the independent daily Al-Shuruq al-Jadid "There should be a quick and firm return of the state and its non-repressive security tools to stop the bloodshed and prevent violence. There should also be a quick return of the police apparatus and it should be enabled both politically and socially to carry out its role."
Muhammad Ismat in Al-Shuruq al-Jadid "No doubt, there is a strong link between the recent acts of violence… and the secret meetings and contacts held by former leaders of the Mubarak regime and figures of the dissolved National Democratic Party in pursuit of any means to ensure their return to political life."
Muhammad Azzuz in the independent daily Al-Dustur "The incidents in Imbaba will recur as long as the pillars of the past regime are being pampered in prison, and as long as they have mobile phones to contact the outside world."
Lamis al-Hadidi in the independent daily Al-Misri al-Yawm "The real problem is the conflict between the civil state and the religious state; the conflict between the moderate Egyptian who believes that religion is for God and the homeland is for all, and the extremist… This is the real conflict and this is the battle; so will we lose it?"
Majdi al-Jallad in the independent daily Al-Misri al-Yawm "Do not deceive yourselves; what has been happening is neither counter-revolution nor a conspiracy by the remnants of the former regime. It is the work of our own hands. It is the natural embryo of extremism that lives within us... Those who ignited Imbaba are cowards, just like bats... They go out in the dark to burn a nation that has lived in tolerance for centuries... we will burn ourselves with extremism and fanaticism".
Muhammad Mustafa Shirdi in the opposition daily Al-Wafd "Egypt should not be afraid of facing those who trigger sedition, and by those I mean the extremists among both Muslims and Christians... What is very clear now is that the government is 'soft' on these incidents and thuggery, as if we were destined to be ruled either by iron and fire or by soft, silky hands."
PM Essam Sharaf expected to give a speech today on State TV about the state of security in #Egypt and #Imbaba violence, tbc 9 minutes ago http://twitter.com/#!/adamakaryPosts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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