CAIRO, March 8 (Xinhua) -- Clashes between Egyptian Muslims and Coptic Christians escalated on Tuesday after Coptic protestors blocked a main road in Cairo for more than two hours.
Hundreds of salafists, or conservative Muslims, claimed for regaining two women who they believed were held in a church after they proclaimed their Islam belief, state MENA news agency reported.
The salafists stressed the importance of not changing the second article of the constitution as the Copts called on in the nationwide demonstration, which affirms that Islam is the only source for jurisdiction.
The clashes between salafists and Copts in the Autostrad road in southeast Cairo left at least one Copt dead and five people wounded, according to local media.
Meanwhile, thousands of Coptic protestors continued a sit-in for the fourth day Tuesday in front of the Egyptian Radio and TV building protesting over a church that was torched in a village in Helwan Governorate, south of Cairo.
They demanded ending of the sectarian clashes against them and rebuilding the burnt Shahedain church.
They also called for providing protection for Copts and securing their houses along with paying compensations for the losses inflicted on them.
A fight among members of a Muslim family on Friday night over the romantic relationship between a Muslim girl and a Christian merchant left two dead, including the girl's father.
After the funeral, crowds of Muslims from the village directed to the Shahedain church and broke into the church before they torched it.
Egypt's new Prime Minister Esssam Sharaf promised the Coptic protestors to reclaim the land of the burnt church and rebuild it.
Brigadier General Tareq el-Mahdi, the Radio and Television Union's supervisor, confirmed with MENA on Tuesday that the church is being rebuilt.
Christians represented about ten percent of the 80-million Egyptian population. Any marriage relationship between Muslim and Christian is forbidden according to Islamic jurisdictions.
CopticNews Coptic News Massive march planned THIS FRIDAY from Maspiro to the village of Atfeeh: #Copts and Muslims united #Egypt #NewEgypt #Coptic 52 minutes ago
CAIRO — At least six Coptic Christians were shot dead and 45 wounded by gunfire in religious clashes with Muslims in the Egyptian capital, a Coptic priest told AFP on Wednesday, updating an earlier toll.
"We have at the clinic the bodies of six Copts, all of them shot," local priest Samann Ibrahim told AFP, referring to a medical centre attached to his church.
The clashes between Christians and Muslims erupted in the poor working class district of Moqattam mid-afternoon Tuesday when at least 1,000 Christians gathered there to protest the burning of a church last week.
A hospital official had late Tuesday initially reported one person dead.
"We also have 45 people who were injured, all of them, without exception, hit by gunshots. Others who were injured have been taken to other hospitals," said Ibrahim.
He said some among the crowd of Muslims had opened fire on the demonstrators, adding that they had also petrol-bombed local houses and workplaces.
Several plastic recycling shops and warehouses storing cardboard boxes had been torched.
Fighting broke out when dozens of Muslims showed up in Moqattam, inhabited by Copts who work as garbage collectors and who had blocked a main north-south artery in the capital.
People threw rocks from both sides and witnesses said soldiers at the scene fired shots into the air in a bid to disperse the crowds.
( arabic link)
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I read that The Mabahith Amn al-Dawla al-'Ulya, or State Security Investigations Service was behind the fuel of this clash.
Where is this anywhere written in the article???? Great ..... another rumor spreader.
If the situation wasn't so sad I would say your comment is hilarious. Keep living in denial.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Ten dead in Egyptian religious clashes
By Mona Salem (AFP) – 3 hours ago
CAIRO — Ten people were killed and 110 wounded in religious clashes Tuesday in Cairo, the health ministry said, as Egypt's mew military rulers struggle to steer the post-revolution country through a transition.
"The total number of injured received by hospitals after the violence (Tuesday) in the areas of Moqattam, the Citadel and Sayeda Aisha is 110, while 10 people were killed," said Sherif Zamel, head of emergency services at the health ministry, without specifying if they were Christian or Muslim....
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I read that The Mabahith Amn al-Dawla al-'Ulya, or State Security Investigations Service was behind the fuel of this clash.
Where is this anywhere written in the article???? Great ..... another rumor spreader.
If the situation wasn't so sad I would say your comment is hilarious. Keep living in denial.
The copts themselves state this and not muslims It is written in the article I have just posted from aljazeera news. You sound not to speak arabic or able to comprehend.
في الوقت نفسه عرض موقع "الأقباط متحدون" فيديو عن أسماء مجموعة أشخاص اتهمهم بالتورط في أحداث هدم وإحراق كنيسة الشهيدين، وقال الموقع إن بين المتهمين مخبرا بأمن الدولة يدعى فتحي أبو خطاب وهو من حرّض باقي المتهمين على مهاجمة الكنيسة.
Do you know me to say I live in denial or not? I do not know you and You do not know me but from This claim I think you are Islamophobic and you are thrilled by such news.
Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
Posted by Once upon a time (Member # 13545) on :
I agree Ths situation is bad and muslims condemn any attack on peaceful People of any religion.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
... and surly you are aware of the horrible things done in the name of Islam. Even if the Islam that you know and love is peaceful, there is another face of Islam that many in the west see, and it is not peaceful... as you surly must know.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I read that The Mabahith Amn al-Dawla al-'Ulya, or State Security Investigations Service was behind the fuel of this clash.
Where is this anywhere written in the article???? Great ..... another rumor spreader.
If the situation wasn't so sad I would say your comment is hilarious. Keep living in denial.
The copts themselves state this and not muslims It is written in the article I have just posted from aljazeera news. You sound not to speak arabic or able to comprehend.
في الوقت نفسه عرض موقع "الأقباط متحدون" فيديو عن أسماء مجموعة أشخاص اتهمهم بالتورط في أحداث هدم وإحراق كنيسة الشهيدين، وقال الموقع إن بين المتهمين مخبرا بأمن الدولة يدعى فتحي أبو خطاب وهو من حرّض باقي المتهمين على مهاجمة الكنيسة.
Do you know me to say I live in denial or not? I do not know you and You do not know me but from This claim I think you are Islamophobic and you are thrilled by such news.
Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
Okay, first of all:
a) Because someone is claiming something you believe it? Or perhaps you want to believe it because it fits your own agenda?
b) I claimed what???? I claimed nothing. I just responded to your statement but it was nothing about Islam.
And my 'no claim' makes makes me "Islamophobic" in your eyes???
Really I have such a hard time understanding you.
c) "Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it."
What's up with that comment of yours? I did not say anything negative about your religion yet you have to justify yourself? Honestly I think you are paranoid as hell.
d) Arrogant? Me?
Yes I am am and MORE. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Bezapt! Needs a *Like* button.
Posted by Laura (Member # 879) on :
Definition of ARROGANT 1: exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official> 2: showing an offensive attitude of superiority : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply>
Posted by Once upon a time (Member # 13545) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
By whom?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
By whom?
Ignorance
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It's like Cheeky always says. Some folks always see the glass half full. Some folks see it half empty. Some folks wallow in the doom and gloom of days past. Some folks look to a brighter tomorrow.
There are wrongs perpetrated against some Christians by some Muslims, and wrongs perpetrated against some Muslims by some Christians. There is a common denominator between both situations - the perpetrators are criminal - simple as that.
I can't for the life of me figure why some people fixate on the differences between faiths - surely it's better to try to find common ground? There's plenty of it if you open your eyes. We are all human after all.
I think prejudice takes many forms, and I think posting on a forum about how all Muslims are savages or non-believers are pigs is as bad as walking up to someone of that demonination in the street and saying it to their face. Actually I think it's worse - it's a cowards way out. Even if you're not saying it in your own words. Even when you just cut and paste. If you cut and paste upteen stories about the wrongdoings of some people who belong to the Muslim faith every day, the message you're sending to the world is difficult to miss.
It reminds me of the guy who stands on Speaker's Corner preaching to us all how the end is nigh. He's been standing there for what, a couple of decades now? When the rest of us have loved, laughed and had a life. Poor him. What a waste.
That link Dzosser posted of the Egyptian flag between the mosque and the church brought a tear to my eye. It was a beautiful moment. I feel sad for anyone who couldn't see that.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I read that The Mabahith Amn al-Dawla al-'Ulya, or State Security Investigations Service was behind the fuel of this clash.
Mubarak regime source of sectarian unrest Cam McGrath, The Electronic Intifada, 3 March 2011
Christians are a minority in Egypt and have been subject to a number of violent attacks in recent years. (Matthew Cassel)
CAIRO (IPS) - Ousted Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak portrayed himself as a paradigm of stability in a country he once described as a "powder keg" of sectarian unrest. Yet far from promoting stability, his regime may have actually been the source of much of the religious strife it claimed to suppress.
Analysts say there is growing evidence that Egyptian security forces planned attacks on Christian churches and clergy, or allowed them to happen. The apparent purpose of the attacks was to reinforce the idea to sympathetic Western governments that without Mubarak, radical Islamist groups would gain a foothold in Egypt and wage a holy war on its Christian community.
"Many people believe the sectarian incidents taking place in the country were the making of state security forces," says Moustafa Kamel al-Sayed, a professor of political science at Cairo University. "Some might be surprised if they were not."
Egypt has the largest Christian community in the Middle East. Copts, who make up about 10 percent of the country's 82 million inhabitants, claim they have faced persecution and discrimination in the workforce.
While Muslims and Christians have cohabited Egypt for centuries, sectarian violence often flares up over land disputes between Christians and Muslims, attempts to build or renovate churches, or rumors of forced conversions. Most incidents are quickly diffused by a heavy security presence.
Last year was one of the bloodiest on record. The year began with a drive-by shooting in the southern town of Nag Hammadi that killed six Copts leaving a church service, and ended with an apparent suicide bombing at al-Qiddisine church in the Mediterranean city of Alexandria as worshippers emerged from a New Year's Eve mass. Some 24 people were killed and nearly 100 wounded in the attack.
The government accused a Gaza-based Islamist group with links to al-Qaeda of carrying out the deadly bombing. However, leaked British intelligence documents purportedly suggest the attack was orchestrated by a senior official of the Mubarak regime.
The diplomatic papers, first cited by al-Arabiya Arabic news channel, allege that former interior minister Habib al-Adly established a black-ops unit in 2004 supervised by 22 security officers with drug dealers, Islamic militants and security personnel on its payroll. The unit's role: carry out false flag acts of provocation and sabotage around the country aimed at diverting people's attention away from the regime's corruption and unpopular political maneuvers.
"Al-Adly militias," as they were described, were also instructed to "wreak havoc in the country if the regime was threatened."
According to British diplomats cited in the documents, the clandestine security apparatus was behind a number of sectarian incidents in Egypt, including the Alexandria church bombing. The unit organized the deadly attack then pinned the blame on a foreign Islamist group in order to bolster western support for Mubarak's authoritarian regime, they said.
If true, the revelations in these documents would be "explosive," says Adel Ramadan, a lawyer who has represented victims in many sectarian cases.
The intelligence report is said to reveal how al-Adly's security officers used their informant network to contact Jundallah, an Islamic extremist group, offering to provide weapons for an operation aimed at "disciplining the Copts." Members of Jundallah were recruited to park a car wired with explosives in front of al-Qiddisine church, then detonate it by remote control. But the operation's ministry handler detonated the parked vehicle before the recruit could get out, making the deadly bombing appear as a suicide attack.
Al-Adly's operatives then snared Mohamed Abdel-Hadi, the leader of Jundallah, and transferred him to an interior ministry facility in Cairo. He was able to escape along with hundreds of other prisoners during Egypt's recent popular uprising, and sought asylum at the British embassy. It was there that he explained his involvement and the double cross to diplomats, according to the documents.
Egypt's public prosecutor has launched an investigation into reports of the former interior minister's involvement in the Alexandria church bombing. If proven, it would corroborate eyewitness reports that police officers normally stationed in front of al-Qiddisine church abandoned their posts less than an hour before the attack.
"The allegation that police forces withdrew ahead of the attack was also heard in other incidents, including the Nag Hammadi shooting," says Sherif Azer of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights (EOHR). If prosecutors can demonstrate government complicity, "we will consider [petitions to] reopen investigations into other church attacks."
Egypt's 25 January Revolution exposed the willingness of Mubarak's authoritarian regime to sabotage public order in order to protect itself, say analysts. For several days, the nation's entire police force disappeared from the streets, allowing looters and escaped convicts to terrorize citizens.
"It was a diabolical plan that by sowing disorder throughout the country people would have no choice but to stop protesting and ask for President Mubarak to come back to restore order," al-Sayed told IPS.
That there were no church attacks during this security vacuum reinforced people's suspicions that the sectarian incidents taking place in their country were largely the making of security forces.
"During the January 25 Revolution all the police abandoned their posts, yet not one single church in the country was attacked," al-Sayed points out. "Even the Jewish synagogues were left untouched after police vacated them."
This isn't average Egyptians, its the SS.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Food for thought. Thank you metinoot.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I read that The Mabahith Amn al-Dawla al-'Ulya, or State Security Investigations Service was behind the fuel of this clash.
Just the link would have done, now it's been posted about 3 times using up bandwidth.
quote:This isn't average Egyptians, its the SS.
fecking hell pass me a prozac, me and sono are agreeing on something! I feel ill!
*note* Don't think she means Waffen SS, don't panic Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
By whom?
Ignorance
Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
once upon a time's statememt was: "Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it."
...You know as well as I do that there are many who never get past these things to see the peaceful side. I am simply pointing out that all people do not know Islam to be peaceful and there very clearly is a side that is not peaceful.
....The whole villiage (not just a few) wanted to kill a teacher for the name of a teddy bear, for heavens sake. Tell me what is peaceful about this?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
By whom?
Ignorance
Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
once upon a time's statememt was: "Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it."
...You know as well as I do that there are many who never get past these things to see the peaceful side. I am simply pointing out that all people do not know Islam to be peaceful and there very clearly is a side that is not peaceful.
....The whole villiage (not just a few) wanted to kill a teacher for the name of a teddy bear, for heavens sake. Tell me what is peaceful about this?
No Doro there is not a side to Islam that is not peaceful and this is what I mean about ignorance. Those you listed ARE among the ignorant.
Take the teddy bear example, it's fine to name millions of babies 'Mohammed' even though those Mohammeds grow up to be wife abusers, murderers etc etc, but a teddy bear? THAT is ignorance.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Food for thought. Thank you metinoot.
Your welcome.
Sometimes "rhetorical" journalism with actual facts and a sample of history can put a different perspective out there.
Very few journalists want to use this medium because its been abused by the Limbaugh, Hannity & Combs venue. And they do it poorly.
It amazes me when I see the same journalists covering the mid-east and it comes to light when over half of them haven't ever been in the region.
Cam Gordon actually sounds like he has credentials, and an unique insight.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
My ex and I were out together tonight doing an errand and some clothes shopping for him.
He stated until the end of Sadat's term parliment candidate's religious designation were not made public.
Egyptians voted for candidates without ever knowing their faith until the mid 1970s. Voters known the candidate's political history, vote history and had read or watched their debates with other candidates but never a mention of their faith.
How often do debates betweeen parliment candidates take place anymore? And how often are a politicians faith designation noted in TV or newspaper coverage?
Times have changed during Mubarak.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Just read a good quote:
"Islamic fundamentalists no more resemble the rules of Quran than the inquisition resembled the Christianity of Christ. "
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
The peace of Islam is the peace of a slave under a sword.
Islam translates to "submission", not "peace"
It achieves peace through getting everyone to submit. That is the stated goal. If you don't submit, you are killed you, the Quran says so.
Muhammad sent letters to the great empires of the Middle East demanding their submission to his authority. This dispels any notion that the Prophet intended Islam's expansion to stop with Arabia. Indeed, it is only logical that the one true religion, revealed by the final and fullest prophet, should have universal sway. Thus, as Muhammad had fought and subdued the peoples of the Arabian peninsula, his successors Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali (known as "the four rightly-guided Caliphs") and other Caliphs fought and subdued the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europein the nameof Allah.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
A statement or a website name --"Islam Is Peace" as in www.islamispeace.org, means nothing. It tells us nothing about a brand-new Muslim movement to deny the literal meaning of hundreds of passages in what is taken to be the literal Word of God.
A website named www.islamispeace.org does nothing to change the wording in the hadiths to be found in Bukhari and Muslim, each more dangerous for Infidels than the last.
A website with the namewww.islamispeace.org implies nothing about whether or not Muslims will continue to regard Muhammad as the Model of Conduct, uswa hasana, the Perfect Man, al-insan al-kamil, and in modelling themselves on him, will recall his life as a military leader who took part in 78 campaigns, 77 of them offensive, and who will remember his approving of the decapitation of the bound and helpless prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, his attack on the inoffensive Jewish farmers, in his raid, undertaken for loot and for women, on the Khaybar Oasis, the pleasure he took in hearing of how his followers assassinated Asma bint Marwan, a woman who had mocked him, and Abu Akaf, a poet whose verses offended him. And will Muslims publicly denounce the use of the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyya as the basis for all Muslim treaties with non-Muslims? Will they denounce, publicly, and apologize for, in the manner of Western countries apologizing for this and for that, for the 60-70 million Hindus who were murdered? For driving the Jews into exile, where so many of them suffered, and for 1300 years did not have a political entity of their own to guarantee some minimum physical protection? To the Buddhists, for helping to drive Buddhism out of India, and destroying so many Buddhist statues and stupas, over more than a millennium, throughout Asia? To the Christians, for taking over huge territories, in the Middle East and North Africa, once Christian, and managing over time to slowly squeeze out, by killing, by persecution, by the dhimmi system itself, so many of those Christians, or managing to force so many to convert to Islam in order to escape, in the only way they then could, the status of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity that the dhimmi condition entailed?
Only when this kind of thing is done, and not the ad campaign worthy of a cigarette company, and not even a cigarette company today, but the kind that back in the 1930s could advertise a smoke as being "smooth" and "good for the throat," will Infidels begin to let up on their examination and critical scrutiny of Islam, which so far has gotten off nearly scot-free, but --and only because of the behavior of Muslims themselves, and despite the effort of Western elites to defend and protect Islam at every turn --will do so no longer. Indeed, the transparency and clumsiness of this ad campaign, and the obvious suspicion that its costs are being met by rich Arabs, merely will heighten suspicions and also be subject to silent, or perhaps open, ridicule. It's a good sign, however, that organized Muslims feel they must engage in this. It's a sign that they feel under pressure, that they somehow have to turn off the tap of information and intelligent attention by Infidels. But those Infidels will start reading, with greater and greater understanding, the Qur'an and the Hadith. And they wil begin to make sense of what they read. They will realize that Islma inculcates a permanent state of war that must exist between Believers and Infidels, between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. They will begin to realize that Jihad to spread Islam, by any means available, is a living doctrine, and one that fell into desuetude not because of any change in either doctrine or Muslim understanding of that doctrine, but because of perceived Muslim weakness until the OPEC trillions came along to make those Muslims rich, able to buy weapons,and Western hirelings, and also to support a vast propaganda effort on behalf of Islam to supplement campaigns of Da'wa all over the advanced West, which, as it happens, was also successfully penetrated by millions of Muslim immigrants --including those who now live in Great Britain, and ride those busses, and smile as they look at those advertisements, and think to themselves, if only we can keep the Infidels unwary for just another decade, or two, ifonly, ifonly...
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.
People who do not know are misled then.
The peace of Islam is the peace of a slave under a sword.
Islam translates to "submission", not "peace"
Salam = Peace, does it not? Submission to GOD, not to man or anyone else, GOD the creator. Hard to understand?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Doro there is not a side to Islam that is not peaceful and this is what I mean about ignorance. Those you listed ARE among the ignorant.
Take the teddy bear example, it's fine to name millions of babies 'Mohammed' even though those Mohammeds grow up to be wife abusers, murderers etc etc, but a teddy bear? THAT is ignorance.
Very well then.... the ignorant side of Islam... is that better?
None the less there are MANY who call themselves Muslim who are not peaceful. And most of the Islamic governments are oppressive to their citizens. How can you deny this? Egypt itself just went through a revolution. Is Hosni Mubaric Muslim?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Submission means that you become a dhimmi, a subordinate to Muslims. You work and pay the Jizyyah, an extortion fee, to the Muslims who would treat you as second class citizen. They become the master race and you, their virtual slave and the source of their livelihood.
Narrated Juwairiya bin Qudama At-Tamimi: We said to 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, oh Chief of the believers! Advise us." He said, "I advise you to fulfill Allah's Convention (made with the Dhimmis) as it is the convention of your Prophet and the source of the livelihood of your dependents (i.e. the taxes from the Dhimmis.) " Bukhari 4, 53, 388:
The good news is that you can change your status by converting to Islam. So in a a very sarcastic sense, there is no compulsion in Islam. You convert "voluntarily". But you are free not to convert by accepting subjugation, humiliation, discrimination and constant harassment. What can be more democratic? This meaning of "peace" is understood by all the Muslims. However they know that the non-Muslims have a different understanding of this word. So, they deceitfully promote their religion as a religion of peace taking advantage of the fact that the root of both words Islam and Salam is slm. One means submission and the other means peace. Even though the peace in Islam is understood as submission.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Doro there is not a side to Islam that is not peaceful and this is what I mean about ignorance. Those you listed ARE among the ignorant.
Take the teddy bear example, it's fine to name millions of babies 'Mohammed' even though those Mohammeds grow up to be wife abusers, murderers etc etc, but a teddy bear? THAT is ignorance.
Very well then.... the ignorant side of Islam... is that better?
No not really as it's not a 'side of Islam' at all, it's a side to some of the followers that claim to be Muslim. It's not the religion of Islam that makes them as they are just as it wasn't a side of Christianity that conducted the inquisition, burnt woman and 'pagans' etc. or the many so called Christian sects in your own country more recently than that who have commited atrocities in the name of 'religion'.
quote:None the less there are MANY who call themselves Muslim who are not peaceful. And most of the Islamic governments are oppressive to their citizens. How can you deny this? Egypt itself just went through a revolution. Is Hosni Mubaric Muslim?
Yes I believe babaMu is Muslim but that's not the reason for the oppression towards the citizens, greed is. The Islamic religion encourages to fight against oppression, not force oppression. Just the same as those atrocities I mentioned previously regarding earlier Christians. The difference is that you will deny those are Christians as they are not following Christ's teachings whereas I can't say these Muslims are not muslims as that's not my place to decide, it's God's. I can say they are not following Islam in my view, but only God knows what's in their hearts in the end. What I mean is I don't find it that easy to say 'he or she is not Muslim', but it's not Islam that makes them as they are.
Early Christianity and it's followers had the very same problems, it's called 'changing the religion' which man has always felt the need to do assuming they know better than God or need to correct Him.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
I don't deny that they are Christians. I don't think one person can tell another who or what they are.
The real difference is that I can most certainly, without a doubt say that they are not following the teachings or examples of Jesus which you cannot say about the prophet.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote: No not really as it's not a 'side of Islam' at all, it's a side to some of the followers that claim to be Muslim
What is there about Islam that makes us keep trying to figure out what is the real Islam?
In the same way, is the religious Koran of Mecca the real one? Or is it the political Koran of Medina? Said in another way, is the real Mohammed the preacher or the jihadist?
Duality is one of the two Islamic fundamental principles. Submission is the other. Duality means that Islam holds two contradictory views on all subjects. Thus, asking the question about which view is the real one is like asking which end of the magnet is the real magnet. Is it the north end or is it the south end? At least we can agree that both poles are just different ends of the same magnet. Just like the magnet, the “complete, perfect and detailed” Koran is both religious and political and the real Mohammed is the jihadist and the preacher. Islam uses each one when it is needed.
'Ayisha' and 'once upon a time', need the “good” Mohammed. But the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood are using the jihadist Mohammed. North pole. South pole. Same magnet. Preacher Mohammed. Jihadist Mohammed. Same Mohammed. It is based on a false premise that Mohammed must be one or the other, when he is both sides of the contradiction. It is this dualism that lets Islam deceive the kafir. When talking to kafirs and dhimmis, Islam presents a saintly man. The apologist dhimmis say, “Well, if Mohammed was such a nice guy, the other Mohammed must be false.” The shape-shifting dualism fools the dhimmis. Which brings us to the Koran.
Certain Muslim reformers think that if we didn’t have to deal with the “false” jihadist Mohammed, Islam would be acceptable. However, the Koran says over 30 times that Allah wants every human to be just like Mohammed. Then it says over 40 times, that if we aren’t like Mohammed, we burn in Hell. Islam has to have Mohammed. Without him, a Muslim does not know how to fulfill any of the Five Pillars. To be generous, the Koran is an incomplete document. Without Mohammed’s life there is no Islam. Also the actions of Mohammed show up constantly in the Koran.
Mohammed the jihadist shows up at the battles of Badr and Uhud. Mohammed the politician shows up in the Victory sura. Islam has to have Mohammed even if there were no Sira or Hadith. All of the mentions of Mohammed in the Koran are seamless with the Hadith and Sira. That is one of the reasons that the Sira and Hadith cannot be dismissed. The Koran, Sira and Hadith are a unified intellectual work.
But let’s go along with the argument that without the Mohammed of the Sira and the Hadith, a good Islam would be a Koran-only Islam. Muslims are so immersed in dualism of believer/kafir that they cannot see what a dreadful document the Koran is for the kafir. They love it when the Koran says that they are the “best of people”, but they cannot see how horrible it is that I and all other kafirs are called the worst things in Allah’s creation.
The Medinan Koran has brought political misery to the kafirs for 1400 years. There is not one good statement in the Koran and Islam for us. It says that we can be tortured, beheaded, crucified, robbed, raped, enslaved, mocked, and humiliated. These are political actions and they define the Islamic worldview. Why does any Muslim think that I get a warm feeling and a smile when I am told that Allah plots against me and hates me?
A reformed Islam based upon the Koran without Mohammed is still an Islam where the kafirs are political second class citizens to be abused. The only reform that is good for kafirs is the removal of the negative language. The application of the Golden Rule to the Koran will do this, but over half of the Koran would vanish. Only a Koran with a Golden Rule and without kafirs is a reformed Koran.
I can give a criteria for a reformed Islam. Can I hear a good Mohammed joke after reform? I am very serious. There are jokes about Jesus, Noah, Adam and Moses (all supposed Islamic prophets of Allah). Why not Mohammed?
I cannot help but notice that no Muslim can discuss Islam without criticizing Christianity. The reason for this is found in the “complete, perfect and detailed” Koran. The Koran is vicious about all other religions. Due to its dualism, it has a good word in the beginning about the Jews and Christians, but in the end, the dualism prevails and the Koran’s second view is brutal. It demands that it, and it alone, determines the truth of all other religions. But the Koran does not stop with religious criticism, but it always includes political persecution of other religions.
The “complete, perfect and detailed” Koran also dictates that all other religions must politically submit in this world. Islam is not just about religion, but politics. The Koran is a political text that contains only negative, pejorative, hurtful, insulting words for the kafir. The “complete, perfect and detailed” Koran of Medina contains more Jew hatred than Hitler’s Mein Kamph.
A detailed statistical analysis of Mein Kamph shows that 6.8% of the paragraphs are Jew hatred. The same analysis of the Koran written in Medina shows that 10.6% of the material is about Jew hatred.
When Mohammed attacked the Jews of Khaybar (an event referred to in the Medinan Koran) he first called them to Islam. When they rejected this call they were attacked, crushed and made dhimmis. It was in this vein that bin Laden called America to Islam before he attacked on September 11, 2001 . So the call to Islam can be from care and concern or it can be a prelude to death by jihad. Such is the dualistic nature of political Islam and the Koran. This makes me very sad. I wish that I could believe that Islam can be reformed and that Muslims could be convinced to stop imitating the jihadist Mohammed, obeying the Medinan Koran and killing kafirs. Look at the results. Mao was responsible for the deaths of 77,000,000 people, Stalin killed about 62,000,000 and Hitler was responsible for the deaths of 21,000,000. And for the last 1400 years those who imitate Mohammed and follow the Koran of Medina, have killed over 270,000,000 kafirs.
Posted by abdi (Member # 18622) on :
once again the western media turning egypt into lebanon..
we saw in somalia when americans supported the abyssinian ethiopians to invade somalia and then what come out was AL-SHABAAB burning chrches in mogadishu.
thais fear is created by americans simple as that. egyptians are very hospitable and they love each other no matter christain or muslim,
FEAR = AMERICAN INTERFERENCE
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: I don't deny that they are Christians. I don't think one person can tell another who or what they are.
The real difference is that I can most certainly, without a doubt say that they are not following the teachings or examples of Jesus which you cannot say about the prophet.
Yes I can. The teachings and examples of Muhammed are in Quran, whether some have come along 300 years later and wrote otherwise is no different to the pagan Constantine deciding what Christianity is and throwing out the books according to who was with Christ at the time in favour of books written by those that barely knew him.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
What do you mean? Didn't Ayisha write about the prophet? Didn't his followers document his activities?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: What do you mean? Didn't Ayisha write about the prophet? Didn't his followers document his activities?
Well there are supposed writings collected by a man born 200 years after his death where less than 1% of those collected are considered 'authentic' but the point is we are supposed to follow the prophetS, (Muhammed was told to follow Abraham who was true in faith) we are to make no distinction among ANY, and what we are to follow is IN Quran, which also states NOT to follow ANY HADITH after Quran. So even if any of those are 'authentic', which I doubt, we shouldn't follow them anyway. The following is in following Quran, God's Word, not mans.
The prophet in Quran is not the same prophet that these writings are about, changes and falseties started even before he died.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: What do you mean? Didn't Ayisha write about the prophet? Didn't his followers document his activities?
Well there are supposed writings collected by a man born 200 years after his death where less than 1% of those collected are considered 'authentic' but the point is we are supposed to follow the prophetS, (Muhammed was told to follow Abraham who was true in faith) we are to make no distinction among ANY, and what we are to follow is IN Quran, which also states NOT to follow ANY HADITH after Quran. So even if any of those are 'authentic', which I doubt, we shouldn't follow them anyway. The following is in following Quran, God's Word, not mans.
The prophet in Quran is not the same prophet that these writings are about, changes and falseties started even before he died.
Ayisha, I am talking about what is, not what you wish it would be. The truth is that not all Muslims follow a peaceful Islam. You can dance around this all you want but it is simply a fact. Whether or not it is a true Islam or an ignorant Islam is another matter.
Why is it so difficult to acknowledge this? A problem does not disappear by not looking at it.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: What do you mean? Didn't Ayisha write about the prophet? Didn't his followers document his activities?
Well there are supposed writings collected by a man born 200 years after his death where less than 1% of those collected are considered 'authentic' but the point is we are supposed to follow the prophetS, (Muhammed was told to follow Abraham who was true in faith) we are to make no distinction among ANY, and what we are to follow is IN Quran, which also states NOT to follow ANY HADITH after Quran. So even if any of those are 'authentic', which I doubt, we shouldn't follow them anyway. The following is in following Quran, God's Word, not mans.
The prophet in Quran is not the same prophet that these writings are about, changes and falseties started even before he died.
Ayisha, I am talking about what is, not what you wish it would be. The truth is that not all Muslims follow a peaceful Islam. You can dance around this all you want but it is simply a fact. Whether or not it is a true Islam or an ignorant Islam is another matter.
Ok, so the Waco bunch, the KKK and all other 'sects' calling themselves Christians are in fact christians at work and it matters not that it is true christianity and each time you say they are not following the teachings of Christ to disassociate yourself from them means nothing? Not all Christians follow the peaceful teachings of Christ either do they.
quote:Why is it so difficult to acknowledge this? A problem does not disappear by not looking at it.
same about those unpeaceful and intolerant Christians practicing their form of Christianity.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
You can't tell another person what they are. You just can't. It's the same for those who tell you that you are not Muslim because you don't follow the hadith. Are you Muslim or no? I have seen some on ES say that you are not.
Yes bad things have been done in the name of Christianty. Have you ever heard me deny this? No, I wont, I will condemn the behavior and I can back my condemnation up with Christ teachings.
Are you really telling me that ALL people know Islam to be peaceful? This simply is not the truth. You can say that you know Islam to be peaceful but you cannot say that all people know Islam to be peaceful and you cannot say that all Muslims are peaceful. Same as I cannot say that all Christians are peaceful or that everyone knows all Christians are peaceful.
Look, I can say that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. If someone calls themselves a Christian and does things contrary from his example does not mean that they are not Christian, what it does mean is that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. His teachings do not vary, there is no controversy about his behavior.
I would like to see examples of the prophet being peaceful because honestly I have not see one example.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: You can't tell another person what they are. You just can't. It's the same for those who tell you that you are not Muslim because you don't follow the hadith. Are you Muslim or no? I have seen some on ES say that you are not.
Yes bad things have been done in the name of Christianty. Have you ever heard me deny this? No, I wont, I will condemn the behavior and I can back my condemnation up with Christ teachings.
Are you really telling me that ALL people know Islam to be peaceful? This simply is not the truth. You can say that you know Islam to be peaceful but you cannot say that all people know Islam to be peaceful and you cannot say that all Muslims are peaceful. Same as I cannot say that all Christians are peaceful or that everyone knows all Christians are peaceful.
Look, I can say that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. If someone calls themselves a Christian and does things contrary from his example does not mean that they are not Christian, what it does mean is that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. His teachings do not vary, there is no controversy about his behavior.
I would like to see examples of the prophet being peaceful because honestly I have not see one example.
I think that most times you appear intelligent and at the same time there are those occasions where you just don't make any sense. This is one of them. Go back and read your last four or five posts and hopefully you will see that you were contradicting yourself all along and running around in circles to prove something you do not believe.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: You can't tell another person what they are. You just can't. It's the same for those who tell you that you are not Muslim because you don't follow the hadith. Are you Muslim or no? I have seen some on ES say that you are not.
Yes bad things have been done in the name of Christianty. Have you ever heard me deny this? No, I wont, I will condemn the behavior and I can back my condemnation up with Christ teachings.
Are you really telling me that ALL people know Islam to be peaceful? This simply is not the truth. You can say that you know Islam to be peaceful but you cannot say that all people know Islam to be peaceful and you cannot say that all Muslims are peaceful. Same as I cannot say that all Christians are peaceful or that everyone knows all Christians are peaceful.
Look, I can say that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. If someone calls themselves a Christian and does things contrary from his example does not mean that they are not Christian, what it does mean is that they are not following the teachings of Jesus. His teachings do not vary, there is no controversy about his behavior.
I would like to see examples of the prophet being peaceful because honestly I have not see one example.
Then change the Quran you have read or do more reading of it. If you want to know about Jesus where do you look? You look in the Bible, so if you want, or need for whatever reason, to know about Muhammed, then look in Quran.
as with a lot of people you don't have a grasp on ISLAM for what it is, what it really is, and any 'Muslims' actions you apply to 'Islam' whereas at the same time you can say the same Christian doing an action 'is not following Christ' but you can't see the same for a Muslim doing an action. It's the same as if a guy in US, UK or anywhere goes and shoots a load of schoolkids, which DOES happen a fair bit in USA I might add, his religion is NOT MENTIONED at all, it's not an issue, UNLESS he happened to be a MUSLIM, then Islam is blamed. It's brainwashing!
A Muslim does not worship Muhammed, his duty was to deliver the message and that was IT. So all the 'following Muhammed' that should be done is IN Quran, not in anywhere else that 'says' he did this or that, because as I said before, the one written 'about' is not the same as the one that 'delivered' the message he DID follow.
So no there is not an 'unpeaceful' side to ISLAM, the same as there is not an 'unpeaceful' side to Christianity, there are 'unpeaceful' followers of both and every other 'religion'.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
So bottom line is that you believe ALL people know Islam is peaceful.
I know for a fact that all people do not know that Islam is peaceful.
I am not contradicting myself. I said that ALL people do not know Islam to be peaceful... I stand by that. Maybe you are calling the small group around you ALL people where as I see another group and I can guarantee you that they all do not see Islam as peaceful.
quote: as with a lot of people you don't have a grasp on ISLAM for what it is, what it really is, and any 'Muslims' actions you apply to 'Islam' whereas at the same time you can say the same Christian doing an action 'is not following Christ' but you can't see the same for a Muslim doing an action.
I don't need to have a grasp of Islam to know that ALL people do not consider it the religion of peace. I look at what people consider to see what they consider, not at Islam itself. Regardless if it is or is not peaceful.
I am able to point to Jesus and say that they are not following his teaching. No one can go and start a war for example and say this is the teaching of Jesus. Yet, Muslim who do start a war do point to Muhammad (pbuh) to show the example for their action. Did he or did he not go to war? Did he or did he not kill people?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: So bottom line is that you believe ALL people know Islam is peaceful.
No and I never said they do, you were arguing this point with once upon a time, not me.
quote:I know for a fact that all people do not know that Islam is peaceful.
Then we are back to where I joined this thread with 'Ignorance'
quote:I am not contradicting myself. I said that ALL people do not know Islam to be peaceful... I stand by that. Maybe you are calling the small group around you ALL people where as I see another group and I can guarantee you that they all do not see Islam as peaceful.
Again, I never said they do and I said why, ignorance.
quote:
quote: as with a lot of people you don't have a grasp on ISLAM for what it is, what it really is, and any 'Muslims' actions you apply to 'Islam' whereas at the same time you can say the same Christian doing an action 'is not following Christ' but you can't see the same for a Muslim doing an action.
I don't need to have a grasp of Islam to know that ALL people do not consider it the religion of peace. I look at what people consider to see what they consider, not at Islam itself. Regardless if it is or is not peaceful.
So you pay no attention the the actual religion of Islam, just to what a few people do 'in the name of' and what some tell you, as I said, Ignorance. You are talking about watching what people do, I am talking about Islam, which no you do not have a grasp of and YES if you are to slam IT then you should. By all means slam away at those PEOPLE you think are showing you Islam, but really it would be a good idea to see for yourself don't you think? If I had only looked at Muslims to see Islam I would not be Muslim now. Alhamdulillah I went to the source to see for myself.
quote:I am able to point to Jesus and say that they are not following his teaching. No one can go and start a war for example and say this is the teaching of Jesus. Yet, Muslim who do start a war do point to Muhammad (pbuh) to show the example for their action. Did he or did he not go to war? Did he or did he not kill people?
THAT is where your, and THEIR problems lie. Muslims who start a war point to Muhammed? Defend ourselves, fight against oppression, etc, it does not say to START a war, so no they cannot point to QURAN and say this and that is what I'm saying. There is a MASSIVE difference between 'Muslim' and 'Islam'. Those that 'start a war' CANNOT point to Muhammed as an example but killing in self defense and in war is also sanctioned in the NT and it was Jesus who said he had not come to bring peace but a sword, so are christians with swords justified, as they can point to Jesus for that?
If you consider Jesus to be God in the flesh, then you cannot extinguish all the OT and the slaughter in there, that too belongs to Jesus as God in the flesh because God's word does not change. Jesus came to UPHOLD the law and the Torah, he was a Jewish rabbi.
Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
Now just to see if Im getting this?....loads of christians and muslims have got it wrong because they both arent really following what their examples of God or godliness taught and ultimately it ends with killing each other.
Both sides can say that the way religious leaders over the years have explained it to their flocks is wrong.So people are acting out of ignorance on both sides.
I just find myself wondering how a returning Messiah would judge all the madness? Do both sides believe in a returning Messiah?
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
I believe he's already here Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
...yes...this....and he's an atheist!
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
lol @ Glassflower. I believe that we are both saying that those doing the killing are not following the example.
Ayisha, So basically you are saying that Muslims who believe in the Hadith are not following the actual religion of Islam.... Isn't that most Muslims?
fyi, Jesus did not come to UPHOLD the law he came to fulfill the law. I believe this has been explained to you before.
Also, Jesus spoke in parables. It would go against his very nature to use a literal sword. The sword that he was talking about is the word of God. This has also been discussed before.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, So basically you are saying that Muslims who believe in the Hadith are not following the actual religion of Islam.... Isn't that most Muslims?
Quran is quite clear, 'what other HADITH will you follow after this' and also 'the the majority follow nothing but conjecture.' What the majority follow is not necessarily right.
quote:fyi, Jesus did not come to UPHOLD the law he came to fulfill the law. I believe this has been explained to you before.
Yes it has now explain where he said he had not come to bring peace BUT a sword.
quote:Also, Jesus spoke in parables. It would go against his very nature to use a literal sword. The sword that he was talking about is the word of God. This has also been discussed before.
but he WAS the word of God, so now Jesus IS a sword that HAD NOT COME TO BRING PEACE?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Jesus did not come to bring world peace, but to bring inner peace to those who choose to follow Him. The Matthew passage is talking in terms of world peace, and Jesus was warning His followers that, though there would be eternal benefits for those who followed Him, their beliefs would cause many to hate them and persecuteo them. The two passages in John are saying that Jesus will bring peace to those who follow Him, but you'll see that the John 16 passage is also saying that they will have tribulation in the world.
Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (KJV)
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (KJV)
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (KJV)
Furthermore, Jesus denounces violence to accomplish the will of God. He did not come to crush the Roman Empire. Instead, he willingly lays down his life and dies for the sins of the whole world. History demonstrates that Jesus never wielded a sword against anyone, and in Matt. 10:34 he does not order his followers to swing one either, in order to kill their family opponents or for any reason. But a true disciple who is worthy of following Christ and who comes from a possibly hostile family has to use a sword of the will (never a physical sword) to sever away all opposition, even as far as taking up his cross—another metaphorical implement for the disciples.
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
He never tells his followers to wage war on everyone else, and certainly not on one’s family. Jesus never endorses the sword to spread his message. He never calls for military holy war, and only he sets the genetic code for his movement. There is not a single verse in the New Testament that calls the Church to commit violence to spread the gospel. Rather, the New Testament hands the sword over to the State (Rom. 13:1-6). In any case, Jesus says a spiritual sword, not a physical one, may sever family ties, so his disciples must be ready for that.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote: If you consider Jesus to be God in the flesh, then you cannot extinguish all the OT and the slaughter in there, that too belongs to Jesus as God in the flesh because God's word does not change. Jesus came to UPHOLD the law and the Torah, he was a Jewish rabbi.
The violence in the Old Testament is descriptive: we read about the effects of sin on mankind. The Bible depicts a process of moral evolution –a gradual advance out of barbarism to the precepts of the Gospel.
By contrast, the violence in the core texts of Islam is prescriptive: it commands violence until the end of times, against non-Muslims who refuse to accept rule by islamic law.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, So basically you are saying that Muslims who believe in the Hadith are not following the actual religion of Islam.... Isn't that most Muslims?
Quran is quite clear, 'what other HADITH will you follow after this' and also 'the the majority follow nothing but conjecture.' What the majority follow is not necessarily right.
quote:fyi, Jesus did not come to UPHOLD the law he came to fulfill the law. I believe this has been explained to you before.
Yes it has now explain where he said he had not come to bring peace BUT a sword.
quote:Also, Jesus spoke in parables. It would go against his very nature to use a literal sword. The sword that he was talking about is the word of God. This has also been discussed before.
but he WAS the word of God, so now Jesus IS a sword that HAD NOT COME TO BRING PEACE?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: [QUOTE] By contrast, the violence in the core texts of Islam is prescriptive: it commands violence until the end of times, against non-Muslims who refuse to accept rule by islamic law.
If you can read it so clear, why don't you convert FFS, there's no time to waste, the end is near, its terminal..finito Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote: If you consider Jesus to be God in the flesh, then you cannot extinguish all the OT and the slaughter in there, that too belongs to Jesus as God in the flesh because God's word does not change. Jesus came to UPHOLD the law and the Torah, he was a Jewish rabbi.
The violence in the Old Testament is descriptive: we read about the effects of sin on mankind. The Bible depicts a process of moral evolution –a gradual advance out of barbarism to the precepts of the Gospel.
By contrast, the violence in the core texts of Islam is prescriptive: it commands violence until the end of times, against non-Muslims who refuse to accept rule by islamic law.
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Jesus did not come to bring world peace, but to bring inner peace to those who choose to follow Him. The Matthew passage is talking in terms of world peace, and Jesus was warning His followers that, though there would be eternal benefits for those who followed Him, their beliefs would cause many to hate them and persecuteo them. The two passages in John are saying that Jesus will bring peace to those who follow Him, but you'll see that the John 16 passage is also saying that they will have tribulation in the world.
you don't seem to have much inner peace and it's you who comes causting tribulation on ES, so what's it say about people like you?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote: If you consider Jesus to be God in the flesh, then you cannot extinguish all the OT and the slaughter in there, that too belongs to Jesus as God in the flesh because God's word does not change. Jesus came to UPHOLD the law and the Torah, he was a Jewish rabbi.
The violence in the Old Testament is descriptive: we read about the effects of sin on mankind. The Bible depicts a process of moral evolution –a gradual advance out of barbarism to the precepts of the Gospel.
By contrast, the violence in the core texts of Islam is prescriptive: it commands violence until the end of times, against non-Muslims who refuse to accept rule by islamic law.
Bull spam
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"you don't seem to have much inner peace and it's you who comes causting tribulation on ES, so what's it say about people like you?"
Well from my perspective it is you who is causing "tribulation" on Es, by spreading lies and falsities about Christianity and Islam and by being rude to people who disagree with your views.
Christians in many (if not all) Islamic countries are being persecuted and not allowed to speak their mind. If they dare criticize Islam, they can be accused of 'causing tribulation' and lose their lives. Muslims don't see their treatment of non-muslims as a cause of tribulation, yet when Christians dare speak about the injustities they have to endure as dhimmis, they are being accused of causing tribulation. What does it say about people like you?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "you don't seem to have much inner peace and it's you who comes causting tribulation on ES, so what's it say about people like you?"
Well from my perspective it is you who is causing "tribulation" on Es, by spreading lies and falsities about Christianity and Islam and by being rude to people who disagree with your views.
I am spreading lies about Islam? Let anyone just go and look at all your threads, every one of your posts is a bash at Islam and anyone who disagrees with YOU gets another dozen long SPAM copy pastes as 'proof' of your rubbish, ALL copied from hate sites I might add. Is that following the teachings of Jesus? is that your 'inner peace'?
quote:Christians in many (if not all) Islamic countries are being persecuted and not allowed to speak their mind. If they dare criticize Islam, they can be accused of 'causing tribulation' and lose their lives. Muslims don't see their treatment of non-muslims as a cause of tribulation, yet when Christians dare speak about the injustities they have to endure as dhimmis, they are being accused of causing tribulation. What does it say about people like you?
There are many muslims also in many countries being persecuted, how about this:
24 January 2011 AZERBAIJAN: PRESSURE AND PUNISHMENTS FOR WORSHIP WITHOUT STATE PERMISSION INCREASING? Azerbaijan appears to be increasing raids on and threats to religious communities for worshipping without state permission, Forum 18 News Service notes. An imam near the capital Baku, Mubariz Gachaev, received threats in late December 2010 that he would be imprisoned if his mosque continues to hold unregistered worship. A Protestant in northern Azerbaijan, Ilham Balabeyov, was in mid-January 2011 fined three weeks’ average local wages for leading unregistered worship. Police also summoned him to a police station and detained him there for all of the day his church marks Christmas. Members of a forcibly closed Sunni mosque in Gyanja have told Forum 18 that the only religious activity they are now allowed to conduct is to meet in small groups, under police surveillance, to pray in private homes. As of today (24 January) only 510 religious communities are registered. It seems that many applications are either being denied or left without answer. No legal challenges to re-registration denials have yet succeeded. All unregistered religious activity is illegal, against international human rights law.
25 January 2011 TAJIKISTAN: WHEN IS A MOSQUE NOT A MOSQUE? Tajikistan has this month (January) closed many mosques in the capital Dushanbe and warned local Muslims not to engage in unregistered religious worship, Forum 18 New Service has found. Recent years have also seen closures and demolitions of mosques, churches and the country’s only synagogue. Sources Forum 18 has spoken to put the number of closed mosques this month at more than 50. However, officials from the Dushanbe Mayor’s office and state Religious Affairs Committee have claimed to Forum 18 was that the closed mosques “are not mosques,” and “cannot be used as mosques”. It is unclear why the authorities claim that mosques should apply for registration, when the authorities have decided in advance that they cannot be used for worship. A Dushanbe imam, who wished to remain unnamed for fear of the authorities, told Forum 18 that he welcomes members of a closed mosque to his mosque, but “they want to have their own mosque”. Officials would not tell Forum 18 what measures will be taken against imams or local Muslims if they continue worshipping in closed mosques.
16 February 2011 AZERBAIJAN: Schoolboy prayer ban leads to two-day prison sentence Boys of school age were prevented from attending Friday prayers at the Juma Mosque in the central town of Yevlakh on 21 January, local Muslims complained to Forum 18 News Service. Barring entry was a town administration official and the head teacher of a local school, but both refused to explain to Forum 18 why they had done so. A young man, Elvin Mamedov, was given a two-day prison sentence for failing to abide by police orders after he protested against the local police officer forcing entry into the home of a father who had defied the ban and taken his son to pray. Meanwhile, Seventh-day Adventist Gheorghiy Sobor was allowed to return to his family and home after being barred for eight weeks from returning to Azerbaijan. A Moldovan citizen, he and his wife have been required to pledge in writing that he will not conduct religious activity. "Of course we are not happy about this," Aida Sobor told Forum 18. "It's like living without an arm or a leg."
But I suppose that's ok with you as just about any religion is persecuted for their belief in these places.
Who would have thought that Buddhist also persecute Muslims!!
Tuesday, 25 January 2011 The shocking persecution of Muslims by Buddhist Myanmar Southern Thailand is facing a growing wave of Muslim Rohingya literally being washed up on boats as they flee appalling human rights abuses and persecution in Buddhist Myanmar formerly Burma.
The Muslim Rohingya of Myanmar who are denied citizenship, education, Govt jobs or membership of the Army have suffered persecution for decades at the hands of the repressive Military Junta and have seen thousands of their villages destroyed particularly in Eastern Burma resulting in huge waves of Muslim exiles fleeing into Bangladesh.
Sadly the appalling treatment is compounded when Muslims escape and arrive in Thailand a country who LM highlighted has its own Muslim insurgency and as a result the first thing Thai authorities do is send these poor people back to Myanmar and inevitably further abuse when they are not sabotaging their boats in international waters.
With evidence of genocide towards its other minorities, LM urges the international community and in particular the Muslim Ummah to help protect our fellow Muslim brothers and sisters and stop the oppression. Please contact your MPs and Govt's around the world to establish what if any pressure they can bring to bear on both Myanmar and Thailand to stop the abuse of Muslims while also ensuring the culprits face justice. Posted by londonmuslim http://londonmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/01/shocking-persecution-of-muslims-by.html
There is plenty more so gimme a break on the persecution crap, we've all had plenty of it and lets not forget the Christian 'crusades' either.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Really Ayisha, your examples are about religious persecution of almost all religions by (are they)atheist states (except the Buddhists). I think that vw was particularly bothered about Christian persecution by Muslims. So your examples really don't answer that dilemma, do they? It's also quite enlightening to see that, in the case of the Buddhist persecution, your source is only asking people to complain about the persecution of Muslims, I take it that they (and possibly you) aren't interested in the other people who are being persecuted for their religion? Is this another stark difference between our two faiths? As you well know; when Christians campaign for freedom and justice it is for Muslims as well as for Christians and others.
The Crusades? Please! They were almost 1000 years ago.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Really Ayisha, your examples are about religious persecution of almost all religions by (are they)atheist states (except the Buddhists). I think that vw was particularly bothered about Christian persecution by Muslims. So your examples really don't answer that dilemma, do they?
That was what i said
"But I suppose that's ok with you as just about any religion is persecuted for their belief in these places. "
quote:It's also quite enlightening to see that, in the case of the Buddhist persecution, your source is only asking people to complain about the persecution of Muslims, I take it that they (and possibly you) aren't interested in the other people who are being persecuted for their religion?
In the case of the Buddhists, it was only Muslims being presecuted.
quote:Is this another stark difference between our two faiths? As you well know; when Christians campaign for freedom and justice it is for Muslims as well as for Christians and others.
I thought after all the time of me writing in here it would have at least come across that i am against ANY oppression, persecution etc for ANY religious belief. "Let there be NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION"
quote:The Crusades? Please! They were almost 1000 years ago.
ROFL and the Muhammed that vwvw constantly bangs on bashing was over 1300 years ago!! Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Ah, but the difference is that without your Muhammad, there is no Islam! How can anyone discuss Islam without mentioning him, after all; he is the model for all Muslims, isn't he?
"In the case of the Buddhists, it was only Muslims being presecuted."
What's this then?............
"With evidence of genocide towards its other minorities"
Btw, sorry for suggesting that you mightn't care about other persecuted religions, that was below the belt!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Ah, but the difference is that without your Muhammad, there is no Islam! How can anyone discuss Islam without mentioning him, after all; he is the model for all Muslims, isn't he?
And without Jesus you wouldn't have had the Christian crusades would you
quote:"In the case of the Buddhists, it was only Muslims being presecuted."
What's this then?............
"With evidence of genocide towards its other minorities"
I do apologize, they bashed everyone else too. Here is another more specific one.
My POINT is that ALL religions have had persecution right back to even before Akhanaten and Christians have also done their fair share of persecuting.
quote:Btw, sorry for suggesting that you mightn't care about other persecuted religions, that was below the belt!
No worries Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
"And without Jesus you wouldn't have had the Christian crusades would you"
Give over girl! What you mean is that without Mr Muhammad's unprovoked invasions; we wouldn't have had the need for the Christian Crusades.
Wars are a bad subject to get onto, I for one don't want to go there today, thank you very much.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor:
Wars are a bad subject to get onto, I for one don't want to go there today, thank you very much.
then stop reading vw's propaganda spam and chips! Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: The Crusades? Please! They were almost 1000 years ago.
Nope..the last one I recall was about 63 years ago when the fvcking Jews, with a little help from their friends, targeted Jerusalem and were able to sieze it in 1967 A.D.
Isn't that sheer Muslim Persecution from Jews et al ? Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Bible:
Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Quran:
004.104 SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
008.012 SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
009.005 SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.123 SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
002.216 SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
004.089 SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
005.033 SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
"the fvcking Jews"
Obviously, there's nothing in Quran about loving your neighbour? It's funny, 'cause the Jews I know just want to get along feeding their families, contributing to the society in which they find themselves, and worshipping God in their own special way. I haven't come across any who are so full of hate as some of the contributors on here!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: "the fvcking Jews"
Obviously, there's nothing in Quran about loving your neighbour? It's funny, 'cause the Jews I know just want to get along feeding their families, contributing to the society in which they find themselves, and worshipping God in their own special way. I haven't come across any who are so full of hate as some of the contributors on here!
Just wait and see when someone invades your land and takes your home away then kicks you in the butt for the rest of your existence till you die..would you like that ?? I'd call that person, who in this scenario seems to be all Jew to me, a bloody fvcking Jew. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Bible:
Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Quran:
004.104 SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
008.012 SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
009.005 SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.123 SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
002.216 SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
004.089 SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
005.033 SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
speechless.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Yes, speechless! They're pretty good comparisons, aren't they?
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Dzosser, Do you mean like the Arabs did to Egypt?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Yes, speechless! They're pretty good comparisons, aren't they?
absolutely spot on comparisons between apples and bricks, yes.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Dzosser, Do you mean like the Arabs did to Egypt?
I was out for lunch and was expecting to see this remark when I returned home..Arabs replaced the Romans in Egypt and those were by far less tolerant towards Christians "at that time".. Jizya or Islam..many chose the Jizya in times when the Romans used to feed the Christians to wild beasts for the fun of watching them being devoured. Times have changed tremendously, don't you think so ?? Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
I hope you enjoyed your lunch.
Have things really changed all that much? People continue to kill other people because they can! The bigger proportion of a population just seems to want to dominate the smaller section. If they can get away with murder, then they will!
It's just that it seems to be prevalent in the East. Jews killing Palestinians, Muslims killing Copts. It all seems so unnecessary, and self perpetuating.
It's very sad, and no-one is winning; just causing more and more misery!
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Just a thought, before you say it; I know it wasn't so long ago that people calling themselves Christians were killing Muslims in the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo etc. So, not much changes really!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Serbs killing Bosnians and Kosovos, this is the Balkans, nothing to do with Arabs at all. Correction about Jews, some are not Zionists as you know, and don't believe in killing Palestinians..those are not the fvcking Jews I referred to. Lunch was great, thanks, with no pork in it. Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: "the fvcking Jews"
Obviously, there's nothing in Quran about loving your neighbour? It's funny, 'cause the Jews I know just want to get along feeding their families, contributing to the society in which they find themselves, and worshipping God in their own special way. I haven't come across any who are so full of hate as some of the contributors on here!
What you seem to contribute on ES is insulting people, that clear to see!!
If you dont like what people have to say on ES, then leave simple as that!!
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Where's the insult?
Where is it clear to see?
Are you, as I fear, a lunatic, who sees and reads words which aren't there?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Bible:
Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Quran:
004.104 SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
008.012 SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
009.005 SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.123 SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
002.216 SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
004.089 SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
005.033 SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
speechless.
Can you see the different message?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Bible:
Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luk 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Quran:
004.104 SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
008.012 SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
009.005 SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
009.123 SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
002.216 SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
004.089 SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
005.033 SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
speechless.
Can you see the different message?
yes, bricks taste nothing like apples.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
^ What does that mean?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Ayisha, I posted verses from both the Bible and the Quran that clearly show opposite messages. We can take another subject if you like but it will show the same results...
... Muhammad (pbuh) brought a different message than Jesus.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, I posted verses from both the Bible and the Quran that clearly show opposite messages. We can take another subject if you like but it will show the same results...
You posted 'nice' verses from one and 'not nice' verses from the other, both totally out of context to prove they are not the same? No, apples are not comparable with bricks!
quote:... Muhammad (pbuh) brought a different message than Jesus.
And Jesus brought a different message than Moses, your point? They are from the same source. You are welcome to pick and choose the 'nice' bits and claim they are 'the only' bits but fact is they are all from the same source for different times and dependent on WHY. By the time the message came with Muhammed both the jews and the Christians had come so far from what was originally sent so it was updated and completed, most didn't listen.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Well, If you feel that way, then post the verses from the Quran, that show how to deal with your enemy, that you would like to post. Don't just give your opinion, post the verses. The stage is yours. Show the nice bits. You are also welcome to show where Jesus told us to cut off our enemies head and fingers, cause I have never read it anywhere.
Jesus did not bring a different message than Moses. Jesus was fufilling prophesy. Anyway, your stance for as long as I can remember has been "It is the same message" and if it were "updated" or "completed" as you say then the Torah and the Bible would be part of the Quran.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Well, If you feel that way, then post the verses from the Quran, that show how to deal with your enemy, that you would like to post. Don't just give your opinion, post the verses. The stage is yours. Show the nice bits.
I don't need the stage, it's all yours
quote:You are also welcome to show where Jesus told us to cut off our enemies head and fingers, cause I have never read it anywhere.
if you believe Jesus to be God then you have just posted where He said it.
quote:Jesus did not bring a different message than Moses. Jesus was fufilling prophesy.
So Jesus brought no message different to Moses then why don't you follow what Moses brought? I mean the other bits apart from the 10 commandments, or is it they are not 'nice' enough so you ignore them?
quote:Anyway, your stance for as long as I can remember has been "It is the same message" and if it were "updated" or "completed" as you say then the Torah and the Bible would be part of the Quran.
Yes they would wouldn't they, how silly of me Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
It must be pointed out that there are people of peace and people of violence in all religions. There are violent Buddhists and Christians. There are peace-loving Muslims.
Changing historical circumstances do much to bring out tendencies toward violence and peace among the followers of different religions. Yet, even when these qualifications are made, it is clear that Islam as a religion and an ideology has by far the greatest tendency to violence.
There are, many Muslims who desire peace, but, their views often do not count for much in Muslim society. This is not because such moderates are rare, but because they are rarely important. The willingness of moderates to be what are objectively bad Muslims, because they reject key teachings of historical Islam, may be laudable in human terms but does nothing to modify Islam as a doctrine.
The prospect of modifying Islam’s doctrine regarding violence is problematic. Although some Muslims in history have tried to "spiritualize" the Quran’s declarations regarding violence, there is always a countervailing fundamentalist push to return to the sources of Islam and take them literally.
Islam’s founder was a warlord who rose from nowhere and who by his death was the undisputed master of Arabia Peninsula. The holy book he produced is filled with commands to use violence in the service of its religion and nation. This potential for violence as well as the fact that it makes no distinction between church and state and is thus a political as well as religious ideology.
As a result, Islam has been willing to employ violence on a massive scale, as illustrated by the first century of its existence, when the Islamic Empire exploded outward and conquered much of the known world. The attitude of Islam toward using violence against non-Muslims is clear. Regarding pagans, the Quran says, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful" (Surah 9:5). This amounts to giving pagans a convert-or-die choice.
It is simplistic to characterize any of the major religions as being strictly "of violence" or "of peace." Every religion capable of serving as the basis of a culture has recognized both the need for peace and the need for the use of force in certain circumstances.
Sects that are totally pacifistic have to rely on the good graces of others who are willing to use force to protect them, while sects that are totally given over to violence do not survive long since they kill themselves off or are broken up by their neighbors as a matter of self-protection. For a religion to serve as the basis ofa culture, it must seek to preserve peace but also be willing to use force. All major religions tend toward this mean.
Yet some religions are far more prone to violence than others. Among the major religions, Islam is by far the most violent.
Christianity has much greater breadth, and much lower intrinsic potential for violence. Its founder—Christ—was a martyr, who refused to fight to save his life. Though the New testament does not contain new commands to use violence. The fact that in Christianity church and state are distinct means that as a religion Christianity has less potential for violence since it is not called upon to use force in the way a state is. This, coupled with Jesus’ own example and his "love thy enemy" teachings (e.g., Matt. 5:44), gives Christianity less innate potential for violence.
By contrast, the Quran has stern words for Muslims who would be slow and reluctant to attack unbelievers: "Believers, why is it that when you are told: ‘March in the cause of God,’ you linger slothfully in the land? Are you content with this life in preference to the life to come? . . . If you do not go to war, he [God] willpunish you sternly, and willreplace you by other men" (Surah 9:38-39).
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote: So Jesus brought no message different to Moses then why don't you follow what Moses brought?
Because Jesus fullfilled the purpose of the law. The purpose of the law was to show us what sin is and lead us to Christ.
God gave Israel a law they couldn't keep to show them how sinful they and all mankind are, and to drive them to come to God by faith. But they didn't want to come by faith. Content with their self-righteousness, they thought they could merit God's favor on their own. So they were all under a curse. To break one law of God is not like breaking one spoke in a bicycle wheel-you can break a spoke and keep on riding. It's more like breaking a pane of glass: you break it in one spot and the pane shatters.
Because Israel couldn't keep the law and refused to come to God by faith, they were under the curse of the law. Romans 6:14 is a key verse: "Sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law but under grace."
That means believers are no longer under the curse of the law. Christ was made a curse for us that we might be set free from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13).
Romans 7:7-13 answers the following question: If the law can't save us or sanctify us, what good is it? This passage teaches us it is good because it can reveal sin.
Our real problem is sin, not the law. That is what explains the weakness of the law to save us. The law cannot save us because we cannot keep it, and we cannot keep it because of indwelling sin.
Ayisha, I posted verses that clearly show a different message in the Bible and Quran. Since you are not able to show verses from the Quran to show the peace of Islam then the matter is settled.... Muhammad (pbuh) did not bring the same message as Jesus.
You also said that I posted them out of context. Please put them in the context that you feel they deserve.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Type in the term Tolerance in Islam and you'll get tons of stuff..we can't look at any Religion as a tit for tat thing..comparisons don't apply here, too childish and shallow. Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
Islam and Christianity are not the same.
The comparisons that were post are indeed not similar in any way.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Dzosser, If you have something to contribute, then do. Why resort to name calling? It's very logical to search for the answer about a religion in the holy book of the religion, not childish at all. More logical than searching in google.
I have been asking for ever what was the message of Muhammad (pbuh). Never got a clear answer from anyone, so I looked for myself and posted it directly from the Quran.
I am fully aware that this is a translation, maybe you could share what the actual Arabic says.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Why must I prove anything you can't accept to be Allah's words to be the only truth that counts as 'RELIGION' if without any doubt you'll denounce it ? Doesn't make any sense at all. A total waste of time and otiose.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Not true. I am open minded and want the truth. I never degrade you.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Not true. I am open minded and want the truth. I never degrade you.
I set out to point the contradiction in your posts and after a second read I now have to withdraw my earlier statement. You are not in any way intelligent. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Best of luck
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
... and surly you are aware of the horrible things done in the name of Islam. Even if the Islam that you know and love is peaceful, there is another face of Islam that many in the west see, and it is not peaceful... as you surly must know.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
once upon a time's statememt was: "Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it."
...You know as well as I do that there are many who never get past these things to see the peaceful side. I am simply pointing out that all people do not know Islam to be peaceful and there very clearly is a side that is not peaceful.
....The whole villiage (not just a few) wanted to kill a teacher for the name of a teddy bear, for heavens sake. Tell me what is peaceful about this?
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Childish and shallow?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
I find it odd that there are those who are offended by verses in the Quran and are calling me names because I posted them. I did nothing more than post the verses. If my understanding is incorrect then explain what the verses mean.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that you've asked this question various times before and that this issue has been discussed on here repeatedly. Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
If anyone who's non Muslim looked below they'll know how serious Allah is about the truth of Islam.
Qur'an 9:71 "O Prophet, strive hard [fighting ] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed."
Qur'an 8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them."
Qur'an 4:168 "Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy."
Qur'an 4:114 "He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell."
Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Qur'an 33:64 "Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: 'Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!' 'Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!'"
Qur'an 5:10 "Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire."
Qur'an 88:1 "Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring."
Qur'an 74:31 "We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease."
Qur'an 72:15 "The disbelievers are the firewood of hell."
Qur'an 72:17 "If any turns away from the reminder of his Lord (the Qur'an), He will thrust him into an ever growing torment, and cause for him a severe penalty."
Qur'an 72:25 "Whoever disobeys the Lord and His Messenger then there is for him the fire of Hell where they shall abide forever."
Qur'an 88:21 "You are not a warden over them; except for those who turn away and disbelieve, in which case, he will be punished with the severest punishment. Verily to Us they will return."
Qur'an 90:19 "But those who reject Our Signs, Proofs, and Verses, they are the unhappy Companions of the Left Hand. Fire will be their awning, vaulting over them."
Qur'an 95:4 "We have indeed created man in the best molds. Then do We abase him, reducing him to be the lowest of the low, except such as believe."
Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."
Qur'an 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelieving Infidels and the Hypocrites; be severe against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil resort."
Qur'an 60:1 "Believers, take not my enemies and yours as allies, offering them love, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you, and have driven out the Prophet and you because you believe in Allah! If you have come out to struggle [fight jihad] in My Cause, and to seek My Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love with them: for I am aware of all you conceal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path. If they were to get the better of you, they would be your foes, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil (designs)."
Qur'an 60:4 "We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.'"
Qur'an 48:13 "If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!"
Qur'an 48:28 "It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it superior to every other religion, exalting it over them. Allah is a sufficient Witness. Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. Those who are with him are severe with Infidel unbelievers."
Qur'an 47:3 "Those who disbelieve follow vanities, while those who believe follow truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah coin for men their similitudes [resemblances] as a lesson. Whoever denies faith [in Islam and Muhammad], his work is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."
Qur'an 9:2 "You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame."
Qur'an 9:4 "You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith."
Qur'an 9:17 "The disbelievers have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness against their own souls to infidelity. These it is whose doings are in vain, and in the fire shall they abide. Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up devotional obligations, pays the zakat, and fears none but Allah."
Qur'an 9:28 "Believers, truly the pagan disbelievers are unclean."
Qur'an 9:30 "The Jews call Uzair (Ezra) the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, damning and destroying them. How perverse are they!"
Qur'an 9:33 "He has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam) to make it superior over all religions, even though the disbelievers detest (it)."
Qur'an 9:63 "Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell wherein they shall dwell? That is the supreme disgrace."
Qur'an 9:66 "Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for they are disbelievers."
Qur'an 9:113 "It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for the forgiveness for disbelievers, even though they be close relatives, after it is clear to them that they are the inmates of the Flaming Hell Fire."
Qur'an 5:78 "Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled."
Qur'an 5:80 "You see many of them allying themselves with the Unbelievers [other translations read: "Infidels"]. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide."
Qur'an 5:82 "You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims."
Qur'an 5:86 "Those who reject Islam and are disbelievers, denying our Signs and Revelations - they shall be the owners of the Hell Fire." Qur'an 2:191 "Slay them wherever you find and catch them, and drive them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 33:25 "Allah drove the disbelievers back...and helped the believers in battle.... He terrorized the People of the Book so that you killed some and made many captive."
Qur'an 18:103 "Say: 'Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? ...Those who reject my Revelations... Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took My proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.'"
Qur'an 52:9 "On the Day when heaven will heave in dreadful shaking, trembling, and mountains will fly hither and thither, woe to those who reject [me], that play in shallow trifles and sport in vain discourses. That Day they will be pushed down by force, thrust with a horrible thrust into the Fire of Hell. Unable to resist, they shall be driven to the fire with violence."
Qur'an 40:10 "Lo, those who disbelieve will be informed by proclamation: 'Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your aversion to yourselves. Allah's hatred of you is terrible, seeing that you were called to the Faith [of submission] and you refused.'"
Qur'an 40:35 "Those who dispute the Signs and Verses of Allah without any authority, grievous and odious, hateful and disgusting, is it in the sight of Allah and the Believers.'"
Qur'an 20:48 "Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty of Doom awaits those who reject and deny."
Qur'an 20:100 "Whoever turns from it, he shall bear a burden on the Day of Doom. Grievous evil will the load on them. We shall gather the Mujrimun (disbeliever) blue or blind-eyed with thirst.... My Lord will blast them and scatter them as dust."
Qur'an 21:06 "Not one of the populations which We destroyed believed: will these believe? ...So we saved whom We pleased, and We destroyed the disbelievers."
Qur'an 21:10 "Verily, We have sent down for you a Book in which is your reminder. Have you then no sense? How many towns have We utterly destroyed because of their wrongs, exchanging them for other people? When they (felt) Our Torment, behold, they (began to) fly. Fly not, but return to that which emasculated you so that you may be interrogated. They cried: 'Woe to us!' Their crying did not cease till We mowed them down as ashes silent and quenched."
Qur'an 21:98 "Verily you (unbelievers), and that which you worship besides Allah, are faggots for the Hell Fire! And come to it you will! There, sobbing and groaning will be your lot."
Qur'an 46:20 "On that Day the unbelievers will be placed before the Fire: 'You squandered your good things in this life and you sought comfort from them, but today shall you be rewarded with a penalty of humiliation.'"
Qur'an 59:4 "If any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment, stern in reprisal."
Qur'an 2:39 "Those who reject and deny Our Signs will be inmates of the Hell Fire and will abide there forever."
Qur'an 2:99 "We have sent down to you Manifest Signs; and none reject them but those who are perverse."
Qur'an 2:71 "The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense."
Qur'an 2:174 "Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the [Bible] Scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom."
Qur'an 2:175 "They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition."
Qur'an 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion."
Qur'an 4:90 "If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them."
Qur'an 8:20 "Those who do not obey are the worst of beasts, the vilest of animals in the sight of Allah. They are deaf and dumb. Those who do not understand are senseless."
Qur'an 8:36 "The unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the Way of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have intense regrets and sighs. It will become an anguish for them, then they will be subdued. The unbelievers shall be driven into hell in order that Allah may distinguish the bad from the good and separate them. Allah wants to heap the wicked one over the other and cast them into Hell. They are the losers."
Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Qur'an 8:40 "If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter."
Qur'an 8:50 "If you could have seen the infidels when the angels drew away their souls, striking their faces and smiting their backs. The angels said: 'Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire.'"
Qur'an 8:52 "They denied and rejected the revelations of Allah, and Allah destroyed them, punishing them for their crimes: for Allah is strict, severe in punishment."
Qur'an 61:7 "Who does greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being summoned to Submission? And Allah guides not the disbelievers. Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers detest (it). It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it conquer all religion, even though the disbelievers hate (it)."
Qur'an 2:104 "To those who don't submit there is a grievous punishment."
Qur'an 3:4 "As a guidance to mankind, He sent down the criterion (to judge between right and wrong). Truly, for those who deny the proofs and signs of Allah, the torture will be severe; Allah is powerful, the Lord of Retribution."
Qur'an 3:10 "As for those who deny [Islam], neither their wealth nor their children will help them in the least against Allah. They shall be faggots for the fire of Hell."
Qur'an 3:11 "The punishment of Allah is severe. So tell the unbelieving infidels: 'You will surely be vanquished, seized by Allah, and driven to Hell. How bad a preparation.'"
Qur'an 3:26 "You [Allah] exalt whom You please and debase and humiliate whom You will. Those who believe should not take unbelievers as their friends...guard yourselves from them.... Allah commands you to beware of Him."
Qur'an 3:32 "Say: 'Obey Allah and His Messenger;' If they refuse, remember Allah does not like unbelieving infidels."
Qur'an 3:55 "Allah said, 'Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).... Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them."
Qur'an 3:61 "If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them."
Qur'an 3:62 "This is the true account, the true narrative, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah - He is the Mighty. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: 'People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah.'"
Qur'an 3:84 "Say (Muhammad): 'We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes [of Israel], and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered, bowing our will (in Islam).'"
Qur'an 3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers."
Qur'an 3:87 "Of such, the reward is the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all men, all together. Their penalty of doom will not be lightened."
Qur'an 3:118 "Believers! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: 'Perish in your rage.'"
Qur'an 3:141 "This is so that Allah may test the faithful and destroy the unbelieving infidels." [Another translation:] "Allah's object is to purge those that are true in Faith and blight the disbelievers. This is so that Allah may test the faithful and destroy the unbelieving infidels."
Qur'an 3:150 "Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!"
Qur'an 33:8 "He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty."
Qur'an 33:58 "And those who annoy or malign Muslims bear (on themselves) a crime of calumny and a glaring sin."
Qur'an 24:39 "For those who disbelieve, their deeds are like a mirage in the desert. There is no water for the thirsty. He only finds Allah, who will pay him his due in Hell."
Qur'an 23:40 "Soon they will regret. Torment and an awful cry will overtake them. We have made such men rubbish, like rotting plants. So away with the people."
Qur'an 24:57 "Never think that the unbelievers can escape in the land. Their abode is Fire!"
Qur'an 4:12 "Those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment."
Sorry guys, you can't say you weren't warned..its never too late to convert and stop those childish arguments. Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
WoooooW!!!!
That's some list Dzosser. It certainly isn't childish, but it does prove, once and for all, that our two religions can never be reconciled!
Such a shame.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: I find it odd that there are those who are offended by verses in the Quran and are calling me names because I posted them. I did nothing more than post the verses. If my understanding is incorrect then explain what the verses mean.
The problem I have with your approach to search for answers is that you already know the answers and you chose to apply them unequally.
But that is not were you really fall short.
-You make statements and suggestions that are just dumb. No other way to describe them as they are utterly stupid.
For example:
Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations
Let's take the easy ones, shall we. Do you really believe that honor killing is unique to Muslims and that it has anything to do with religion? If that is what you truly believe can you explain to me why Copts commit honor killing? What about Indians of different faiths, be it Hindu, Sikh or Muslims?
You actually suggested that governments' human rights violations is a reflection of Islam. Are you on drugs? seriously! Do you really believe that Qadafi is killing his own people for Islam?
Suicide bombers and terrorism. Are you under the impression it is limited to Muslims? Take again India and many Latin American nations and find out what they have to do with Islam? These examples have to do with corruption, oppression, occupation or other factors that do compel people to act in whichever way they can to gain justice for themselves. They're generally unable to command a fleet of jet fighters to bomb their oppressors or whoever their enemy is.
Yes bad things have been done in the name of Christianty. Have you ever heard me deny this? No, I wont, I will condemn the behavior and I can back my condemnation up with Christ teachings.
There comes that contradiction. You know that "bad things have been done in the name of Christianty" and you hinted that you can show that they did not represent Christian values and teachings. Well why don't you extend that same understanding to Islam?
Are you really telling me that ALL people know Islam to be peaceful? This simply is not the truth. You can say that you know Islam to be peaceful but you cannot say that all people know Islam to be peaceful and you cannot say that all Muslims are peaceful. Same as I cannot say that all Christians are peaceful or that everyone knows all Christians are peaceful.
Exactly.
I stated before that there are text in the Bible that is genocidal. It doesn't take a lot of effort to find it on the net. Does that mean Christians commit crimes because God told them to? There are lunatics and there will always be but most commit crimes for worldly reasons.
Now this may answer your question with regard to the Quranic texts you posted. Quran and Islam does not ask Muslims to lie down and die when they're attacked or victimized. Muslims are asked to fight to defend themselves and sometimes when everything seems to be going against them and they are loosing they are asked to be patient and believe in God and judgment day.
The first text you posted: 004.104 SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
related directly to time of migration and settlement in "Medina" and numerous battles starting with battle of "Uhud". Verses 101-104 talk about prayers and I think fasting during travel and exemption from prayer obligation. It is a field instruction of what to do and not to be afraid of their enemy because they are also human and feel pain and so on.
I don't have time to go through the rest but the vast majority of Quran was event driven. Something happened and God decided to send instruction to his followers through the prophet and all that crap.
Well, wasn't that boring and self explanatory?
Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
yes...wow....Im going to make cakes for a Super Moon party tonight and my next internet 'look up' will be peaceful Islam quotes coz I am a bit gobsmacked at all those mean ones above....
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
@this, I am not under the impression that these things are done only by Muslims as I stated before, and I am fully aware that the majority of Muslims are good and peaceful. The impression that I am under is that these things can be justified by the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) as the verses from the Quran that I and now Dzosser have posted clearly show. These are opposite to the teaching of Jesus. Now unless you can talk to me without name calling I will not have any further dialog with you. I will in turn give you the same courtesy.
@ Dzosser:
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
__________________________
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. ______________________________
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: WoooooW!!!!
That's some list Dzosser. It certainly isn't childish, but it does prove, once and for all, that our two religions can never be reconciled!
Such a shame.
Yeah..well now that you've been introduced to the only truth in religion, are you still going to remain in square one ?? If you were a Yanomami Indian then fine, but you're not.
Btw there aren't two religions..its only one that's made out of 3 parts, with Islam being the grand finale. Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
Originally posted by D_Oro: [qb] Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
All of the above are due to political issues.
Apart from Honor Killings which manly take place
in india.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: There comes that contradiction. You know that "bad things have been done in the name of Christianty" and you hinted that you can show that they did not represent Christian values and teachings. Well why don't you extend that same understanding to Islam?
Because Muhammad himself did similar bad things setting a bad example for its followers. He told them to follow his examples.
The problem with Islam is with its sacred book and its founder not with its followers. Taking advantage of this confusion, a breed of Muslims has come up with the idea of “reforming Islam.”
Reform derives from Latin refōrmāre, which means to redeem, to reclaim, to renew. All these imply restoring something to its original shape.
But in its original shape Islam is violent and intolerant. Note that, the Christian Reformation began as an attempt to reform, not the Christianity, but the Catholic Church. Many believers were troubled by the Church and its practices, such as the sale of indulgences (tickets to paradise) and simony (buying and selling church positions).
None of these are doctrines of Christianity. These were practices of the Church. The reformers protested against the Church. They did not defy the authority of the Bible.
An analogous reformation also took place in Islam. This reformation was Salafism.
Many westerners, erroneously believe that Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, (1703–1792) is the founder of an extremist sect of Islam. This is not true. Abdul Wahhab did not found a new sect. He was merely a reformer of Islam in the same way that Luther was of Christianity.
On the surface, there are many similarities between Christianity and Islam. Both believe in a God, both rely on an intermediary between man and God, both faiths are eschatological – have a hell, a heaven and an afterlife, etc. However, in their core, they are very different, in fact opposite to one another. The reformatio of both these faiths took the same road, but seaking the origin of their faith, they went opposite directions. Islam is not a continuation of Christianity, as Muhammad and Muslims claim, but it is an anti Christian belief in its core. Christianity advocates freedom of man, Islam, his slavery. One brings the message of liberation, the other, of submission.
In Islam the law comes from God. Man must obey even if those laws appear contrary to reason and are oppressive. This is the reason why “moderate” Muslims cannot oppose stoning adulterers, killing the apostates or other abuses of their fellow practicing Muslims, and their protests do not go beyond a lip service, and that too is only for the consumption of the western media.
Both Christianity and Islam underwent through reformation. They took similar paths, but they ended up in two opposite poles. While Christian reformation brought freedom, Enlightenment and democracy, Islamic reformation bore terrorism.
What today’s so called Islamic reformers are proposing is not reformation but transformation of Islam. Unlike the above mentioned reformers, these new reformer wannabes do not want to go to the origin of Islam, but rather they want to eschew part of the Quran and the entire Sharia and invent an entirely different religion, still calling it Islam.
This is delusional thinking and impractical, both logically and logistically. It is also strictly prohibited in the Quran.
These neoreformers want to change Islam to something different. They want to bring bid’a to Islam. Is that possible? Can believers have an opinion contrary to what the Quran says? We know that the Quran 33:36, prohibits the believers to have any choice in their OWN matter when Allah and his Messenger have made their choice. How can they decide what is good for the RELIGION?
When the Quran says, “Fighting is ordained for you, even if you don’t like it,” the message is clear. This is God speaking. That is what you have accepted a priori. So how can you dispute with God? Once you accept the Quran as the word of God you cannot pick and choose and discard what you don’t like. This is strictly prohibited, not once but repeatedly.
Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection, they will be consigned to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do. (Q.2:85)
أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلاً 6:114 “Am I, then, to look unto anyone but God for judgment [as to what is right and wrong], when it is He who has bestowed upon you from on high this divine writ, clearly spelling out the truth?”
quote:Originally posted by this: Let's take the easy ones, shall we. Do you really believe that honor killing is unique to Muslims and that it has anything to do with religion? If that is what you truly believe can you explain to me why Copts commit honor killing? What about Indians of different faiths, be it Hindu, Sikh or Muslims?
What Muslims and non-Muslims who practise honor killing all have in common is their misogyny, their fear and hatred for women.
A person does not need to be religious to be a misogynist. But that doesn't mean we don't need to fight misogynistic ideologies that derive from religion and culture. In the case of Muslim countries, misogyny is the natural outcome of the Islamic ethos of misogyny.
Women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame. Muhammad said they are awrah which can be translated as object of shame.
"Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten."
What is awrah? The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. Pudendum derives from the Latin pudor which means sense of shame and modesty. So awrah signify an object of shame that needs to be covered.
What values Islam give to its followers? Quran is very clear that Men are a degree superior to women and that they are their protectors. This undoubtedly conveys the idea that women are incapable to take care of themselves and they are dependent on men. This false image of women is further emphasized when the laws of the Sharia do not recognize women as intelligent enough to witness is a court. The reason given is that if one of them forgets, the other one can remind her. Is there any scientific study that demonstrates women are more forgetful than men? Absolutely not! All these stereotypes convey only one message to the subconscious of the man who believes those teachings are from God. The message is that women are inferior, that they are deficient in intelligent, that they are crooked like a rib that cannot be strengthened. What are the consequences of such conditioning? The consequence is that women should not be trusted. That they are naturally inclined to be wicked, and that they must be punished and even scourged (beaten).
You ask how come Copts commit honor killings too. Although the number of Christian Copts that commit honor killings is very small compared to their number, they are Egyptians, and are influenced by the Egyptian culture in which they live (school upbringing, socializing with Muslims etc) - which is Muslim. If the messages subconsciously make them a misogynist, it is very probable that they will end up as misogynists.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: I stated before that there are text in the Bible that is genocidal.
As I explained so many times before the violence in the Bible is descriptive, not prescriptive as is in Islam. The theme in the Old Testament is the holiness of God and the effects of sin on mankind. Jesus took the violence of our own sins upon Himself.
Christians who use violence in the name of God to destroy their enemies have no justification for their actions from Jesus Christ, his life and teachings.
Whereas, Muslims who are engaged in violence and destruction of anyone who opposes Islam, have ample justification for their actions from the Quran and the life and sayings of prophet Muhammad.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot: Originally posted by D_Oro: [qb] Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
All of the above are due to political issues.
Islam, however, is essentially a political ideology.
Political Islam often uses force and even terrorism to achieve its goals.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by marydot: Originally posted by D_Oro: [qb] Ignorance is only partly true.
The other side are examples from Muslims: The Teddy Bear incident The Cartoon incident Suicide Bombers Honor Killings ME governments Human rights violations ...
All of the above are due to political issues.
Islam, however, is essentially a political ideology.
Political Islam often uses force and even terrorism to achieve its goals.
If your google tells you this, then happy hunting.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: Now this may answer your question with regard to the Quranic texts you posted. Quran and Islam does not ask Muslims to lie down and die when they're attacked or victimized.
All of Muhammad's wars (except in 2 cases) were offensive. How do you explain that?
Muhammad always attacked his victims with no warning and took them by surprise, when people had gone to the fields after their daily business, the gates of their fortresses were open and they were unarmed.
The following hadith makes this point very clear:
Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.” Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4292:
The problem is that Muslims do not know the history of Islam. They are fed with lies and they make no effort to find out the truth.
The truth is that Muslims were never attacked by anyone. They were always the aggressors. In fact Muhammad’s wars are called Qazwah and that means: raid, sudden attack, ambush.
I don’t know what constitutes kindness for Islam. Raiding innocent civilians, killing unarmed people taken by surprise, or massacring their entire male population and enslaving their women and children and even raping them are not acts of kindness. The claim that Islam promotes kindness is an insult to human intelligence. This is like saying Nazism promotes kindness. Islam has advanced by terror and not by kindness.
The order to cast terror in the heart of the enemy is mandated in the Quran 3.151, 8.12. The enemy is anyone who Muhammad chose to attack. These people did not have to be hostile to Muhammad or have done anything against him. He decided that those who do not submit to his cult are the enemy and must be subdued. Or those who are wealthy are the enemy. Muhammad boasted "I have been made victorious with terror" Bukhari 4:52:220
Sometimes Muhammad’s words are good, but often his actions are not. Any criminal will tell you doing evil is wrong. Such statement does not make him a good person. He is simply a man whose actions and words do not match.
We can’t disregard all the gory stories of crimes committed by Muhammad just because somewhere he said; “be kind to others”. The question is why he did not walk the talk? If he knew kindness is better than cruelty, why he acted so ruthlessly? Why did he feign holiness?
Muhammad waged over sixty wars according to Tabari. With the exception of Uhud and Khandaq (Trench), all of them were incursions. It is important to note that Muhammad fabricated excuses for his attacks. In all these excuses he shifted the blame on his victims. For example, when he attacked the Bani Qaynuqa the excuse was that a couple of them had disrespected a Muslim woman. When he attacked the Bani Nadir the excuse was that Angel Gabriel had whispered in his ears that the Bani Nadir were plotting to kill him. When he attacked the Bani Quraiza his excuse was that they had confabulated with the Meccans. This is typical mindset of the narcissist. Narcissists always have excuses for their evil deeds. The claim that Muhammad pre-empted an attack by the Bani Mustaliq is a fabrication of Muhammad himself. It is just an excuse based on a lie. The Bani Mustaliq had no reason to attack Medina. It was always Muhammad who initiated the wars and hostilities. The Bani Mustaliq were not interested in Islam and religious wars in Arabia did not exist prior to Islam. They were Jews. They were an educated and cultured people. They were artisans, herdsmen and farmers. They had made their wealth in commerce and in industry, not through marauding. What reason had they to attack Medina, a city impoverish by Muhammad whose citizens had all become thieves and highway robbers? These are lies concocted by Muhammad to convince his foolish followers that his forays were justified. Despite their savagery, the early believers were still humans and must have felt raiding, massacring and pillaging innocent people with no justification is not right. Muhammad had to give them an excuse. When you attack someone, you must have an excuse. Even Hitler had reasons for his attacks. His reason was "to bring civilization to the less evolved people of the world". The reasons Muhammad gave for his raids were just excuses. With these lies his foolhardy followers placated their conscience willingly and descended to new depths of barbarity.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot: If your google tells you this, then happy hunting.
It is a fact that Islam does not separate religion and politics. In fact it is the only religion founded by a military leader.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by this: [QUOTE]Originally posted by D_Oro: You actually suggested that governments' human rights violations is a reflection of Islam. Are you on drugs? seriously! Do you really believe that Qadafi is killing his own people for Islam?
No one said that Qadafi is killing for Islam. Qadafi is a delusional mad man who is killing because he is mad. (Libya by the way is a secular country).
BUT that doesn't mean that human rights violations in many Islamic countries aren't a reflection of Islam.
Sharia is inimical to the ideas enshrined in the Universal declaration of Human Rights. In an Islamist state no individual or group of people can have any rights that do not conform to the tenets of the Sharia. Oppression, intimidation, lack of freedom, and ferocious censorship and public executions are the undeniable facts of life in many Islamic societies.
The UDHR enumerates the rights of the individual that governments are obliged to protect. But Political Islam is opposed to any concept of individual freedom that is not subordinate to Sharia.
“What they call human rights is nothing but a collection of corrupt rules worked out by the Zionists to destroy all true religions.” Ayatollah Khomeini
“When we want to find out what is right and what is wrong we do not go the United Nations; we go to the Holy Koran . . .” Ayatollah Moussave-Khomenehi
The views of Ayatollah Khomeini were extreme even within Islam, of course, but perhaps more insidious are the claims of the apologists that there is no contradiction between Islam and human rights.
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: BUT that doesn't mean that human rights violations in many Islamic countries aren't a reflection of Islam.
Was Islam a religion of mercy for the 600-900 Jewish men and boys whose heads were piled into trenches after they had surrendered? Was Islam a religion of mercy for the woman who was stabbed to death in the midst of her five children? Was it a religion of mercy for anyone who dared to speak out against Muhammad? No, it wasn’t. When Muhammad finally had a band of dedicated followers who would obey him without question, Islam was not a religion of peace and mercy.
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
These stories you are saying are baseless and misunderstood. Stop posting Spams if you want to be credible.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
Posted by Tareq (Member # 18033) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
Islam is the religion of mercy because it condemns and denounces oppression and injustice.
Muslims are asked by God to fight against injustice and oppression to get the mercy and the peace.
I'm really sorry, Tareq. I'm trying, but your explanation, indeed the Muslim thought process on these issues, seems so foreign to those of us who are used to overcoming evil with love, that it just doesn't "compute".
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
I understand what Tareq is saying, even if no one else does.
good replys Tareq
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: @this, I am not under the impression that these things are done only by Muslims as I stated before, and I am fully aware that the majority of Muslims are good and peaceful. The impression that I am under is that these things can be justified by the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) as the verses from the Quran that I and now Dzosser have posted clearly show. These are opposite to the teaching of Jesus. Now unless you can talk to me without name calling I will not have any further dialog with you. I will in turn give you the same courtesy.
@ Dzosser:
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
__________________________
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. ______________________________
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
The impression that I am under is that these things can be justified by the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) as the verses from the Quran that I and now Dzosser have posted clearly show.
Yes I know and that was the whole point. People can always use religion to justify their actions. That is not limited to Islam. I am of course repeating myself which makes me believe that I do not understand your argument.
I do not intend to argue that the two messages are the same, because I do not care, and if that is the extent of your argument then so be it. So that part I will not comment on. I commented on statements that were contradictory and some that were nonsensical. And I don't understand why you focused on the "all" part of "Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it"! It was clearly and exaggeration to make a point.
With regard to texts from Quran versus texts from the Bible, I understand that you believe the Qruanic texts can be used to justify crimes while texts from the bible can not because they're so peaceful and loving. Is that it?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
My 'list of Qur'anic quotations' is simply to tell the infidels how serious Allah is about Islam, you can't expect someone who's been appointed messenger of Allah to be asked to give his left cheek to who ever slaps him on his right one, it just won't work anymore..corrections had to be made to finally stop this mess. Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
@this, I originally posted in response to once upon a time's post, I did not see it as clearly exaggerated.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
... and surly you are aware of the horrible things done in the name of Islam. Even if the Islam that you know and love is peaceful, there is another face of Islam that many in the west see, and it is not peaceful... as you surly must know.
...and I agree that people can and do use religion to justify their actions. My point is that you cannot use the teachings of Jesus to justify violence but you can use the teachings of the Muhammad(pbuh) to justify violence.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser:
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
My 'list of Qur'anic quotations' is simply to tell the infidels how serious Allah is about Islam, you can't expect someone who's been appointed messenger of Allah to be asked to give his left cheek to who ever slaps him on his right one, it just won't work anymore..corrections had to be made to finally stop this mess.
Dzosser, It only works if you believe that your God is more powerful than a man.
... and looking at the state of the ME what mess do feel has been stopped?
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
There's the difference Mr Dzosser: I (and also other Christians) don't consider that exemplar of overcoming evil with love (i.e. the cheek slapping thing) to be a mess! We believe that it is fundamental to God's expression of His love to all of us, even the unbelievers and idolaters. In which case, we become even more convinced that Muhammad's message couldn't possibly have come from the one true God. As the nature of God, as displayed in the Bible, is to love, above all else, why would His nature suddenly change to be the hateful one which is represented in your quotations? Islam cannot seriously assert itself to be the continuation or fulfillment of Christianity, from where we stand, it's patent nonsense to even imagine it. In fact, for us to regard Islam as the "Grand Finale" of Christ's ministry here on earth, would be the grossest blasphemy imaginable!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
The creation of Lucifer is a mess in my view point, now think about that. Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
I'm thinking! lol.
My first thought is that Lucifer may not be an actual being, but more a personification (for the sake of easier understanding) of free will being used selfishly. But, without free will, we would be of no use to God, so it is a necessary (possible source of) "evil" which we must endure.
Posted by this (Member # 17234) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: @this, I originally posted in response to once upon a time's post, I did not see it as clearly exaggerated.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Islam is quite the opposite. Islam is peaceful religion and all people(including you) know it but you are just arrogant to admit it.
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
... and surly you are aware of the horrible things done in the name of Islam. Even if the Islam that you know and love is peaceful, there is another face of Islam that many in the west see, and it is not peaceful... as you surly must know.
...and I agree that people can and do use religion to justify their actions. My point is that you cannot use the teachings of Jesus to justify violence but you can use the teachings of the Muhammad(pbuh) to justify violence.
What a waste of time.
Posted by 'Shahrazat (Member # 12769) on :
I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
I personally don't care what others think about my religion. And in addition to that, I am thankful to my Book and religion that they taught me to respect, not to judge and love other prophets like I do mine.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser:
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
My 'list of Qur'anic quotations' is simply to tell the infidels how serious Allah is about Islam, you can't expect someone who's been appointed messenger of Allah to be asked to give his left cheek to who ever slaps him on his right one, it just won't work anymore..corrections had to be made to finally stop this mess.
Dzosser, It only works if you believe that your God is more powerful than a man.
A Muslim does believe that God is more powerful than a man, a muslim does not believe that God IS a man.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
I personally don't care what others think about my religion. And in addition to that, I am thankful to my Book and religion that they taught me to respect, not to judge and love other prophets like I do mine.
Shah, Do you feel that I have been disrespectful of someone?
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Ayisha, seeing as Mt Dzosser quoted all that hatred stuff directly from the Quran: does that mean that if we ever, eventually, get to meet that my head will be off and my wife enslaved? Or should we just hide indoors for the rest of our time in Egypt?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Christians do not believe that God IS a man in the way you imply.
As Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, uncreated, and is the Word of God found in physical book form, they should be able to understand that Jesus is eternal, uncreated, and is the Living Word of God in physical living form.
God wanted to reveal Himself to mankind under created circumstances congenial to human understanding. According to the Bible, God is love. In Biblical perspective, by entering into this world, God does not demean Himself; rather He exalts Himself. By His visitation on earth, He does not cloud His glory; rather, He magnifies it among mankind. By His presence among us, He does not become the lesser; rather, He becomes the greater for our greater praise. By being not only above us but with us in Jesus Immanuel, He not only acts in conformity with Himself; even more, He is being Himself and He is being what He will be.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Ayisha, seeing as Mt Dzosser quoted all that hatred stuff directly from the Quran: does that mean that if we ever, eventually, get to meet that my head will be off and my wife enslaved?
Whatever happens I expect you to turn the other cheek and combat any evils with love, of course. Are you saying you would object to your wife being enslaved by us terror driven muslims whose country you have chosen to live in?
quote:Or should we just hide indoors for the rest of our time in Egypt?
Why do you live here if it's so terrifying? Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Christians do not believe that God IS a man in the way you imply.
yes you do.
quote:As Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, uncreated, and is the Word of God found in physical book form, they should be able to understand that Jesus is eternal, uncreated, and is the Living Word of God in physical living form.
So you are likening Quran to Jesus now? Not sure if I feel happy or sad about that.
quote:God wanted to reveal Himself to mankind under created circumstances congenial to human understanding.
They understood the nature of God long before Jesus or were the people by then so stupid they couldn't grasp what those before could?
quote:According to the Bible, God is love. In Biblical perspective, by entering into this world, God does not demean Himself; rather He exalts Himself. By His visitation on earth, He does not cloud His glory; rather, He magnifies it among mankind. By His presence among us, He does not become the lesser; rather, He becomes the greater for our greater praise. By being not only above us but with us in Jesus Immanuel, He not only acts in conformity with Himself; even more, He is being Himself and He is being what He will be.
So God makes Himself 'better' by being a man? God is more 'exhalted and magnified' by being a man? God being a man makes Him HIMSELF? And you say Christians do not believe Him to be a man in the way I imply?
The more of your copy paste drivel I read only enhances the obvious problem among people like you in that you use flowery quotes which are totally contradictory and with absolutely no understanding of any of it especially the concept of GOD.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Is this a different side of Ayisha we're seeing? Has Dzosser's post "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak, and now you can no longer pretend that Islam isn't the force for evil against every single person who will not bow down to Muhammad and his god? That's what the quotes say, isn't it? Or has Dzosser taken them "out of context", as the non-Muslims are usually accused of doing?
"Why do you live here if it's so terrifying?"
It hasn't been terrifying at all! At least not until a person whom I always imagined to be moderate and who seemed quite kind, now sees fit to turn on me because one of her fellow jihadists has given the game away!!!!
Is this the way "Land of Freedom - EGYPT" is heading? No more foreigners? No more tourists? No more "business" wives? Muslims given free reign to harass and kill Christians and other so-called infidels?
When are you having a fitting for your niqab, Ayisha, 'cause you won't be allowed to go around with your hair (or any skin, god forbid) on show like some sharmoota, will you?
Funny thing is: I was, today, told by a shop worker in the government shop on Youseff Hassan Street, that the "good man" Bin laden will be in Egypt within two months, then I'll have to fly away from Egypt! But I'm sure this won't affect a good Muslima like you.
Roll on a bankrupt Egypt! But it will be ALL Allah's, so that's fine.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Beware of our jihadist brothers then, we usually decapitate infidels on sight, I advise you to convert, unless you'd rather pay jizya, we'll soon be breathing down every non Muslim's neck, you'll be forced to grow a beard, wear a black short galabeya and cover your head with a turban..sit tight and out of sight my dear ourluxor. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:So God makes Himself 'better' by being a man?
No, he makes himself better understood to man.
God is spirit, he is not a man. God IS not a man but that doesn't mean he CANNOT become man, if he wishes. The eternal Word of God took on a real human nature, while still remaining fully God in essence.
He came and spoke to us and became man so that we can understand him. He became man so man might become a god as Saint Athanasius the Great said. Salvation totally relies on this truth, Christ’s true humanity as much as His true Divinity. If man is mortal, he is immortal by partaking of His divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4) and it is true to say along with St. Gregory of Nazianzus “that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved.”
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Is this a different side of Ayisha we're seeing? Has Dzosser's post "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak, and now you can no longer pretend that Islam isn't the force for evil against every single person who will not bow down to Muhammad and his god? That's what the quotes say, isn't it? Or has Dzosser taken them "out of context", as the non-Muslims are usually accused of doing?
Have you finally gone senile or are you reading something other than what I actually typed?
quote:"Why do you live here if it's so terrifying?"
It hasn't been terrifying at all! At least not until a person whom I always imagined to be moderate and who seemed quite kind, now sees fit to turn on me because one of her fellow jihadists has given the game away!!!!
yep, senile!
quote:Is this the way "Land of Freedom - EGYPT" is heading? No more foreigners? No more tourists? No more "business" wives? Muslims given free reign to harass and kill Christians and other so-called infidels?
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Was this reply to me?
quote:When are you having a fitting for your niqab, Ayisha, 'cause you won't be allowed to go around with your hair (or any skin, god forbid) on show like some sharmoota, will you?
Senile, it must be as there is nothing in my post that could warrant this reply
quote:Funny thing is: I was, today, told by a shop worker in the government shop on Youseff Hassan Street, that the "good man" Bin laden will be in Egypt within two months, then I'll have to fly away from Egypt! But I'm sure this won't affect a good Muslima like you.
Ahh now I see, some moron in the shop gave you a hard time so you are giving me one, what happened to the love will combat all evils? I don't think that means bash me coz someone else bashed on you does it? Mind you, good old Bush thought so didn't he, and God was on his side, apparently.
quote:Roll on a bankrupt Egypt! But it will be ALL Allah's, so that's fine.
ROFL The entire universe belongs to Allah! Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
The Hebrew Bible itself supports the view that God can become a man, without ceasing to be God, since there are places where God appeared in human form:
"The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw THREE MEN standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. He said, ‘If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash YOUR FEET and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way-now that you have come to your servant.’ ‘Very well,’ they answered, ‘do as you say’… He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. WHILE THEY ATE, he stood near them under a tree. ‘Where is your wife Sarah?’ they asked him. ‘There, in the tent,’ he said. THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son’… THEN THE LORD SAID TO ABRAHAM, ‘Why did Sarah laugh and say, "Will I really have a child, now that I am old?" Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh.’ BUT HE SAID, ‘Yes, you did laugh.’ WHEN THE MEN GOT UP TO LEAVE, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: [QB]
quote:So God makes Himself 'better' by being a man?
No, he makes himself better understood to man.
God is spirit, he is not a man.
He came and spoke to us and became man so that we can understand him. He became man so man might become a god as Saint Athanasius the Great said. Salvation totally relies on this truth, Christ’s true humanity as much as His true Divinity. If man is mortal, he is immortal by partaking of His divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4) and it is true to say along with St. Gregory of Nazianzus “that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved.”
More flowery contradictions that make no sense at all.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Ayisha, God loving us enough to willing come in the likeness of sinful flesh to help us, makes perfect sense to us. We get it and we understand this is foolishness to you. So either you don't understand that God can love us this much or you believe that he has limited ability and is not capable of walking among his creation.
What makes no sense is why one who believes the Quran to be Gods word does not follow it. One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful. I don't understand it at all. This is so contrary to what we are taught.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:This is so contrary to what we are taught.
It is indeed.
Here are the last words of Jesus:
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34)
and Muhammad's last words:
Ibn Abbas, his cousin and highly reliable transmitter of traditions, narrated this hadith.
When the disease of Allah's Apostle got aggravated, he . . . . would say, ". . . May Allah curse the Jews [and] Christians because they took the graves of their prophets as places of worship." By that he warned his follower of imitating them, by doing that which they did. (Bukhari)
[Muhammad] said, "Turn the pagans out of the Arabian Peninsula" (Bukhari)
stark contrast
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, God loving us enough to willing come in the likeness of sinful flesh to help us, makes perfect sense to us. We get it and we understand this is foolishness to you. So either you don't understand that God can love us this much or you believe that he has limited ability and is not capable of walking among his creation.
I wrote a long reply but found it better to delete it. If you see those as the only 2 options for me if I 'see this as foolishness' to you then there is no point.
quote:What makes no sense is why one who believes the Quran to be Gods word does not follow it. One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful. I don't understand it at all. This is so contrary to what we are taught.
The only one I see like that in what Dzosser posted is 3.61. if you really wanted to actually KNOW the truth you would check that translation against a few others and get a better idea of what it REALLY says, as that translation is quite like no other I have seen. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:This is so contrary to what we are taught.
It is indeed.
Here are the last words of Jesus:
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34)
I thought it was “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” (“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) and “Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit”
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
OK then, yes I probably am starting on the road to Gaga Land.
But I haven't yet felt the need to nit-pick, like you have about the last words of Jesus. It's silly to be that pedantic when you know what vw meant!
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, God loving us enough to willing come in the likeness of sinful flesh to help us, makes perfect sense to us. We get it and we understand this is foolishness to you. So either you don't understand that God can love us this much or you believe that he has limited ability and is not capable of walking among his creation.
I wrote a long reply but found it better to delete it. If you see those as the only 2 options for me if I 'see this as foolishness' to you then there is no point.
quote:What makes no sense is why one who believes the Quran to be Gods word does not follow it. One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful. I don't understand it at all. This is so contrary to what we are taught.
The only one I see like that in what Dzosser posted is 3.61. if you really wanted to actually KNOW the truth you would check that translation against a few others and get a better idea of what it REALLY says, as that translation is quite like no other I have seen.
Dzosser knows Arabic so I trust that he would post an accurate translation. I am assuming the translation that you want known is to pray for a curse on the one who lies. This too is an odd prayer because both can be telling the truth as they know it... being ignorant of something is not the same as lying about something.
Jesus teaches that we bless those that curse us and we forgive those who trespass against us and by doing this he will lift us up. He never ask us to curse another.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser:
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Are you suggesting that Mr Dzosser's list of Quranic quotations above are a depiction of
"Islam, a religion of mercy"?
My 'list of Qur'anic quotations' is simply to tell the infidels how serious Allah is about Islam, you can't expect someone who's been appointed messenger of Allah to be asked to give his left cheek to who ever slaps him on his right one, it just won't work anymore..corrections had to be made to finally stop this mess.
Dzosser, Doesn't your own Holy Book show Jesus as persecuted, he never lifted a sword, and yet Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty.
According to the Quran Allah protected the peaceful Jesus from death.
Yet in the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh), who used the sword and taught his followers to use the sword, suffered death.
Now this is strictly from the Quran. What are your views on what happened? Why did Muhammad (pbuh) suffer death and Allah protect Jesus and bring him to himself?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, God loving us enough to willing come in the likeness of sinful flesh to help us, makes perfect sense to us. We get it and we understand this is foolishness to you. So either you don't understand that God can love us this much or you believe that he has limited ability and is not capable of walking among his creation.
I wrote a long reply but found it better to delete it. If you see those as the only 2 options for me if I 'see this as foolishness' to you then there is no point.
quote:What makes no sense is why one who believes the Quran to be Gods word does not follow it. One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful. I don't understand it at all. This is so contrary to what we are taught.
The only one I see like that in what Dzosser posted is 3.61. if you really wanted to actually KNOW the truth you would check that translation against a few others and get a better idea of what it REALLY says, as that translation is quite like no other I have seen.
Dzosser knows Arabic so I trust that he would post an accurate translation.
Then that translation is between dzosser and Allah and let him pray he is not among those spoken of in the Arabic.
quote: I am assuming the translation that you want known is to pray for a curse on the one who lies. This too is an odd prayer because both can be telling the truth as they know it... being ignorant of something is not the same as lying about something.
the translation I want known is an accurate one.
odd? you have answered it there yourself, think about it.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
I'd like to tell you that the correct translation like Ayisha has stated, is completely different from the one I advisedly posted so that you can see how the infidels can turn things around..the whole list is copied and pasted from an Islamophobic website..showing you how cruel and mean those people are.
Now look at YUSUF ALI in AL EMRAN 3:60-64.
The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (60) If anyone disputes in this matter with thee now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together―our sons, and your sons our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" (61) This is the true account: there is no god except Allah; and Allah―He is indeed the Exalted in Power the Wise. (62) But if they turn back, Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief. (63) Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say: ye! "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)." (64) Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: I'd like to tell you that the correct translation like Ayisha has stated, is completely different from the one I advisedly posted so that you can see how the infidels can turn things around..the whole list is copied and pasted from an Islamophobic website..showing you how cruel and mean those people are.
Thanks Dzosser, shows there are plenty who would much rather go for the translation you posted than look for any truth.
quote:Now look at YUSUF ALI in AL EMRAN 3:60-64.
The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (60) If anyone disputes in this matter with thee now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together―our sons, and your sons our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" (61) This is the true account: there is no god except Allah; and Allah―He is indeed the Exalted in Power the Wise. (62) But if they turn back, Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief. (63) Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say: ye! "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)." (64)
The verse is in bold and is the correct translation Doro, not just the one 'I want made known' but at least you seem to have checked even though you rejected it, others would rather have the first translation.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: According to the Quran Allah protected the peaceful Jesus from death.
Yet in the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh), who used the sword and taught his followers to use the sword, suffered death.
Now this is strictly from the Quran. What are your views on what happened? Why did Muhammad (pbuh) suffer death and Allah protect Jesus and bring him to himself?
Muhammad pbuh didn't die in combat, he died of natural causes, after he himself mentioned in his last Friday prayers' speech that his role has ended after having completed his message from Allah to the Ummah.. what are you talking about ? Whilst Issa son of Mariam (your Jesus) was saved from crucifixion by the Almighty by a simple 'be and thou shalt become' and both are alive in heaven along with Moses and Allah's chosen ones..so what's your point ? Is this another one of 'our guy's better than yours' thing Goldie ? Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Why did you post things which you don't believe to be true, Dzosser? It wasn't nice.
I thought that people who tried to start trouble on forums were called Trolls!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
I posted your poison..its all over the web, trolls are the ones who believe what they're fed. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Why did you post things which you don't believe to be true, Dzosser? It wasn't nice.
I thought that people who tried to start trouble on forums were called Trolls!
It wasn't nice? you seem quite disappointed.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
I am rather disappointed, that Mr Dzosser should wind up poor gullible people like me. Why shouldn't I believe what he writes? Surely that's the whole point of posting on a religion forum; to state, or try to explain, what one believes?
"I posted your poison"
What's that supposed to mean? Or is it another example of Muslim duplicity?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: I am rather disappointed, that Mr Dzosser should wind up poor gullible people like me. Why shouldn't I believe what he writes? Surely that's the whole point of posting on a religion forum; to state, or try to explain, what one believes?
This time you believed what a muslim wrote because it suited the way your mind would like to believe is Islam, the same as you believe when vwv posts the same from the same sources. You feel disappointed because 'the cat is back in the bag' perhaps and a little disappointed that Quran is not instructing muslims to behead you and enslave your wife. Do you believe everything you read without even bothering to check? I find it sad that someone reaches maturity and is still so gullible, but it shows that things are set in the mind well before wanting to know 'truth'.
quote:"I posted your poison"
What's that supposed to mean? Or is it another example of Muslim duplicity?
It means this is the type of poison you and others actually prefer to read about Islam, as I said it suits what is already set in your mind which people like vw feed off to raise hate towards Islam.
There is a fear among you all, as Allah said He will set terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. You fear that something you so strongly believe in may possibly be wrong, setting a veil on your hearts and closing your minds against it making you delight in reading the stuff vw posts against Islam to 'prove' you are right in your belief. You fear looking for truth of Quran and would rather read the hate stuff to enhance your belief.
I know because I was there, fortunately I wanted The Truth which meant reading all the hate stuff along with the real stuff, then I was able to make an informed choice when I chose Islam.
Never take anyones word for anything, always check the sources and translations, this is something Quran actually tells you to do, verify everything, but a closed mind has a wall around it with little crusader soldiers on the top fighting off any truth that may topple your castle of belief. With a closed mind there is no point bothering, unless its as a hobby like vw.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
I think that was one of the most eloquent postings I have ever read on ES!
Nevertheless, the fear which Christians have of Islam is not that what we believe "may possibly be wrong", it is of the actions of those who would kill indiscriminately in Islam's name.
Now, I am aware that all Muslims do not necessarily adhere to this terrorist stuff, but there are a substantial number, which do. That, I'm afraid , is what frightens everyone about your religion.
My experience of God, through Christ, over the past 40+ years, is quite sufficient for me to be unconcerned about the wicked claims of Islam as posted by Mr Dzosser, whether seriously or in jest.
Regarding me having a closed mind, the gates on my little wall can be easily opened, but only to allow in that which I find proven to be true. My indicator of truth is somewhat like the Biblical injunction; "by their works shall ye know them"!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: I think that was one of the most eloquent postings I have ever read on ES!
Ta muchly
quote:Nevertheless, the fear which Christians have of Islam is not that what we believe "may possibly be wrong", it is of the actions of those who would kill indiscriminately in Islam's name.
And that is where your downfall lies. Just think ourluxor, what you fear is NOT Islam but SOME people claiming to follow islam. Islam is from GOD, Islam means submission TO God. What SOME men do WITH that message is not Islam, it is THEM and nothing to do with Islam. I thank God DAILY that I did NOT look to Muslims to see Islam, you will NEVER see Islam from Muslims, you will ONLY see what they DO with Islam. That is why I looked at it inside out and upside down from every angle possible, from hate to love, from twisted to straight, from intense to relaxed till my head would burst, but Alhamdulillah I asked help of GOD to see truth and I believe I did. The Truth is never easy to find and there are many obstacles along the path to it, you have to work to find it.
quote:Now, I am aware that all Muslims do not necessarily adhere to this terrorist stuff, but there are a substantial number, which do. That, I'm afraid , is what frightens everyone about your religion.
Again, that is not the religion, that is the people. You cannot see what God SAID by looking at people, only by using your own mind He gave you and asking His help to find it will you find ISLAM. The first step is in understanding the HUGE difference between 'Muslim' and 'Islam', you still have no idea what Islam IS.
quote:My experience of God, through Christ, over the past 40+ years, is quite sufficient for me to be unconcerned about the wicked claims of Islam as posted by Mr Dzosser, whether seriously or in jest.
Then that is wonderful, but my experience of God, through GOD Himself is sufficient for me to be unconcerned also about the wicked claims of vw and the like.
I do find it amusing that your outrage is towards Dzosser and his 'wicked claims of Islam' when vw posts these sort of 'wicked claims of Islam' daily by the bucket load though. I could practicaly see you dancing round your apartment when a 'muslim' posted the same and now you feel very let down by Dzosser actually posting the REAL translation.
quote:Regarding me having a closed mind, the gates on my little wall can be easily opened, but only to allow in that which I find proven to be true. My indicator of truth is somewhat like the Biblical injunction; "by their works shall ye know them"!
You clearly cannot see the contradiction in what you have just said. Has having Dzosser post the real translation helped open any gates now that the 'bad' stuff vw posts has been proven to be lies? No. It's disappointed you. Are you using 'by their works shall ye know them' in this? No, you are not seeing the 'works' of vw and the like as to 'know them'. Again I advise you to not look at the 'works' of those who claim to follow Islam, look at the 'words' of God. vw likened Quran to Jesus, so if Jesus is God in human form then Quran is God in book form, a book we HAVE with us to learn from. Through their works shall ye know them, through the works of vw I now know her and her agenda is clear. Posted by Glassflower (Member # 17950) on :
just a question as I havent got time to go through that list of quotes Dzosser put up and find the real interpretation...are they all misquoted? I do get the idea not to believe everything u read but seeing it was from a muslim kinda didnt think it would be a trick..(doh..I thought Mustafa was a one off!)..I was so shocked that I found myself chatting to a couple of friends about it! See how easily mis information can spread to the ends of the world! Geez now Im going to have to read up more and chase after those people...lol..how embarrasing!
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Yes, I agree. vw's agenda is to promote the truth of Christianity and show up (what she, and I, perceive to be) the falsehoods of Islam and its adherents.
What else would you expect from her? Or put another way, what else would we expect from you? After all, you're quick enough to shout about us believing that God is a man, because that seems to be how you see us, even though it has been explained to you on numerous occasions that that is not actually what we believe. In the same way you belittle God when you assert that He couldn't become man, because He's God!
Let's face it, very few of us expect that our various discussions and arguments on here are going to convert people, and that we think and write and post mainly for the pleasure of trying to explain our own thoughts and experiences, and/or seeing them in print! Of course they aren't the only reasons, there are also those who just like to be able to call other people upside down from their safe (unless metinoot does her digging) positions of anonymity, and others who just like to cause an argument.
Isn't there room for all of us on ES?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Yes, I agree. vw's agenda is to promote the truth of Christianity and show up (what she, and I, perceive to be) the falsehoods of Islam and its adherents.
Interesting thought. She is trying to show truth in one by showing falsehood in the other and claiming it as truth of how the other is, but malesh.
quote:What else would you expect from her? Or put another way, what else would we expect from you? After all, you're quick enough to shout about us believing that God is a man, because that seems to be how you see us, even though it has been explained to you on numerous occasions that that is not actually what we believe. In the same way you belittle God when you assert that He couldn't become man, because He's God!
I belittle God? hhmm. I have never said He couldn't become a man because He is God. Interesting though how what is posted actually gets read.
quote:Let's face it, very few of us expect that our various discussions and arguments on here are going to convert people, and that we think and write and post mainly for the pleasure of trying to explain our own thoughts and experiences, and/or seeing them in print! Of course they aren't the only reasons, there are also those who just like to be able to call other people upside down from their safe (unless metinoot does her digging) positions of anonymity, and others who just like to cause an argument.
quote:Isn't there room for all of us on ES?
Of course there is, difference is good, God help us if we were all the same.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Here's the kind of crap that atheists and likes dig out to make religion look bad, I've copied and pasted it for the record and am sorry if its disturbing to read.
God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.
The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK.
Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV)
The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.
And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
Most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.
Now if you want more, there's plenty of that, and it doesn't stop. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: God orders the killing of innocent people
For 1000th time the violence in the Old Testament is DESCRIPTIVE, not prescriptive - for all eternity:
The Old Testament describes the effects of sin on mankind. Sin shows itself here as violence, as cruel, cold-blooded murder, as injustice. Sin reeks violence upon the innocent.
Jesus was like a lightning rod that drew all the judgment of God unto Himself.
The really amazing thing is God's mercy. Jesus took upon Himself all the devastating effects of sin with all its violence so that we could know the peace of forgiveness and the joy of salvation. We see in this the violence of our own sins upon the life of one who was innocent.
This is nothing like the violence of the Quran, where 'Allah' prescribes violence, explicitly ordering and condoning violence against and the oppression of non-Muslims. It's almost impossible to argue that suicide bombers aren't following an entirely reasonable interpretation of the Islamic faith.
There is no historical context to mitigate this Koranic exhortation either in the verse or in those that surround it.
“Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” (Quran 2:216)
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” (Quran 8:12)
Islamic terrorists wage holy war because it is the literal command of the Quran. Muhammad was a terrorist himself and he boasted in Bukhari: "I have been made victorious with terror".
The Biblical violent passages are historical accounts. This is why Christians and Jews do not treat these verses as present-day imperatives. Not too many people are losing their heads to fanatics screaming praises to Jesus (or Moses, Buddha or the many Hindu gods either) as they are to shouts of “Allah Akbar!” That there are so many Islamic terrorist groups composed of fundamentalists (or purists) of the Muslim faith is enough to impress any reasonable person that there is something far more dangerous about Islam.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
the verse you quoted does not stop at invalid.
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid until all is fullfilled."
Christ did not say: "I come not to destroy but to establish or perpetuate." Rather but "to fulfill"
None of the Law of Moses did fail! Christ fulfilled it 100%, then he nailed it to the cross! Col 2:14-16
Lk 24:44 "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
"the law and prophets will endure forever unless it be fulfilled first."
Parent to child at dinner table: "You are going to sit there until you eat all your dinner. For until your bed time, not the smallest letter shall pass away from what I have said, until all your dinner is eaten.
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The verse is in bold and is the correct translation Doro, not just the one 'I want made known' but at least you seem to have checked even though you rejected it, others would rather have the first translation.
I always check Ayisha. I had no reason to think that Dzosser would post something false. Where do you see me reject the correct translation? Posting that statement makes it appear that I am out to search for lies about Islam. You should know better. I don't spread lies and I don't degrade your belief. That does not mean that I wont have open discussion. I also don't feel that posting verses from the Quran is disrespectful.
Dzosser's post may have been to prove a point... point taken, but the verses that I posted were from the Quran. No one commented on them even after Glassflower asked for clarification.
What is your response to this here for instance?
8:[13] [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: [14] `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
The OT was written to show how much we all deserve death. The NT is the remedy for that; Jesus Christ. He died to pay for our sins. So those who accept His atonement will not die but inherit eternal life. Our bodies will decay but the Spirit will live forever.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: I always check Ayisha. I had no reason to think that Dzosser would post something false. Where do you see me reject the correct translation?
As a matter of fact, reading the Quran in its original Arabic often makes the Quran seem even more harsh and intolerant.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The verse is in bold and is the correct translation Doro, not just the one 'I want made known' but at least you seem to have checked even though you rejected it, others would rather have the first translation.
I always check Ayisha. I had no reason to think that Dzosser would post something false. Where do you see me reject the correct translation?
here: "One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful."
And here: "I am assuming the translation that you want known is to pray for a curse on the one who lies."
This shows you did look as you saw another translation, but you rejected it for the one dzosser posted.
quote: Posting that statement makes it appear that I am out to search for lies about Islam. You should know better. I don't spread lies and I don't degrade your belief. That does not mean that I wont have open discussion. I also don't feel that posting verses from the Quran is disrespectful.
I know you don't search for lies about Islam nor do you spread them, you are the ONLY real person of the Christian faith on here that I can say that about so it did surprise me when you seemed to believe Dzossers translation. No posting verses from Quran is not disrespectful unless it's posted in the manner that some people post.
quote:Dzosser's post may have been to prove a point... point taken, but the verses that I posted were from the Quran. No one commented on them even after Glassflower asked for clarification.
Sorry I must have missed that, been a bit busy today, I will go back and check and try to answer.
quote:What is your response to this here for instance?
8:[13] [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: [14] `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"
I would be interested to know what you see in that and what translation it is, and it's 8.12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Read it again and notice who the Lord is speaking TO in this message.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Sorry vwvw I found this so funny that I had to copy and paste it...
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17
Jesus advocates murder and death:
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21
Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:
Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15
Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12
Jesus advocates child abuse:
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7
Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
A few other things about Jesus:
Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25
Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13
Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13
Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
The OT was written to show how much we all deserve death. The NT is the remedy for that; Jesus Christ. He died to pay for our sins. So those who accept His atonement will not die but inherit eternal life. Our bodies will decay but the Spirit will live forever.
Do you believe in hell?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Oh Dzosser! cats and bags! Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The verse is in bold and is the correct translation Doro, not just the one 'I want made known' but at least you seem to have checked even though you rejected it, others would rather have the first translation.
I always check Ayisha. I had no reason to think that Dzosser would post something false. Where do you see me reject the correct translation?
here: "One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful."
And here: "I am assuming the translation that you want known is to pray for a curse on the one who lies."
This shows you did look as you saw another translation, but you rejected it for the one dzosser posted.
I didn't look it up until after you made the comment that I should look at another translation. I just took what Dzosser posted without checking when I made the comment to you...Like I said, I had no reason to believe that Dzosser would post a bad translation, so it's not true that I chose the fake translation over the real one.
quote:8:[13] [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: [14] `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"
He is telling the believers(Muslims) to strike their necks and strike off every one of their finger-tips.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The verse is in bold and is the correct translation Doro, not just the one 'I want made known' but at least you seem to have checked even though you rejected it, others would rather have the first translation.
I always check Ayisha. I had no reason to think that Dzosser would post something false. Where do you see me reject the correct translation?
here: "One of the many verses from the Quran that Dzosser posted that are troubling is the one that tells you to pray curses on me. I don't believe that you do this but when I read that you are commanded to do this it is quite frankly hurtful."
And here: "I am assuming the translation that you want known is to pray for a curse on the one who lies."
This shows you did look as you saw another translation, but you rejected it for the one dzosser posted.
I didn't look it up until after you made the comment that I should look at another translation. I just took what Dzosser posted without checking when I made the comment to you...Like I said, I had no reason to believe that Dzosser would post a bad translation, so it's not true that I chose the fake translation over the real one.
quote:8:[13] [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: [14] `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"
He is telling the believers(Muslims) to strike their necks and strike off every one of their finger-tips.
Yusef Ali: "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Literal: When your Lord inspires/transmits to the angels, "That I (am) with you, so encourage/affirm those who believed, I will throw in those who disbelievers' hearts/minds the terror/fright, so strike/beat above the necks, and strike/beat from them every/each fingertip/finger .
Pickthal: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
Arberry: When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, 'I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers' hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!'
Shakir: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Sarwar: Your Lord inspired the angels saying, "I am with you. Encourage the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and you will strike their heads and limbs;
Malik: Then your Lord revealed His will to the angels: "I am with you, give courage to the believers. I will cast panic into the hearts of the unbelievers, therefore, smite their necks and beat every joint of their bodies."
Now is it still telling the muslims to strike their necks and strike off every one of their finger-tips?
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Some of the translations say that Allah will do it, some say that the angels are to do it, and some say for Muslims to do it.... Guess we do need to know Arabic to tell what it really says.
Listen, I don't care if someone believes that God wants them to dance naked in the moonlight, it's between them and their God. But, if a holy book tells its followers to kill me or anyone for that matter, I have the right to voice concerns.
Now supposedly the Quran is only to be understood fully by Arabic speakers and if one has to search through ten translations to find a more peaceful version of a single verse then that means that there are translations that tell to cut heads, fingers, kill without mercy...the unbelievers. Which the Quran, in various translations tells its followers to do.
Now, we can simply turn our heads to this, or dance around saying "the true Islam is the religion of peace", or we can take an honest look at it to find a solution as to why the violence is in there, because "the extremist" have taken these things as a command from God.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Some of the translations say that Allah will do it, some say that the angels are to do it, and some say for Muslims to do it.... Guess we do need to know Arabic to tell what it really says.
Not ONE of those tells Muslims to do ANYTHING. It is what God SAID to the ANGELS.
quote:Listen, I don't care if someone believes that God wants them to dance naked in the moonlight, it's between them and their God. But, if a holy book tells its followers to kill me or anyone for that matter, I have the right to voice concerns.
The very book that JESUS followed tells believers to kill unbelievers! I don't think you've read the OT have you? You should, this might help you to understand better and why God says in Quran that they KNOW it is from HIM. There is nothing in Quran that tells a Muslim to kill YOU.
quote:Now supposedly the Quran is only to be understood fully by Arabic speakers and if one has to search through ten translations to find a more peaceful version of a single verse then that means that there are translations that tell to cut heads, fingers, kill without mercy...the unbelievers. Which the Quran, in various translations tells its followers to do.
NO it does not mean that there are translations saying that, and if they do then they are NOT translated correctly as Dzosser has already shown. I assume you don't read the Bible in Aramaic and Hebrew?
quote:Now, we can simply turn our heads to this, or dance around saying "the true Islam is the religion of peace", or we can take an honest look at it to find a solution as to why the violence is in there, because "the extremist" have taken these things as a command from God.
It is the religion of peace and there is bucket loads more violence, incest, rape and murder in the OT, the Book that JESUS followed as he was a JEW and a RABBI, than there is in Quran but you conveniently negate that as 'past', you shouldn't as it's all part of the message of GOD. God is quite adamant about those who do not beleive, about hypocrites etc etc and that has not changed one iota. Read Revelations, best horror story I have ever read and if that doesn't make you FEAR the power of the almighty God then nothing will.
Now I will ask you the same I keep asking vw, do you believe in hell?
Posted by 'Shahrazat (Member # 12769) on :
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro:
quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: I mean no disrespect but you should know that " ALL " people do not know that Islam is a peaceful religion.
I personally don't care what others think about my religion. And in addition to that, I am thankful to my Book and religion that they taught me to respect, not to judge and love other prophets like I do mine.
Shah, Do you feel that I have been disrespectful of someone?
No, no I didn't mean anyone specifically D. Actually I wasn't aware that it belongs to you.
As far as I see, there are things you question about Islam. So I wonder, do you accept Muhammed as a messenger? Do you accept Quran as a holybook? If so, you judge (or question) some verses, so doesn't that mean judging (or questioning) God at the same time? (Or we do believe different Gods? )
Posted by D_Oro (Member # 17954) on :
Shah, This section is for discussion about religion. I view it as an academic discussion rather than a personal one. I enjoy it because I don't get this discussion in real life.
With that said, of course those who participate have their own personal point of reference that they base their belief on. For Christians it is the Bible, Jews it is the Torah, and Muslims it is the Quran.
We are taught to question, if it is the truth then it will stand and the truth will set us free. Unlike animals God has given us the ability to think and reason.
As far as Muhammed(pbuh) goes, I accept him as your messenger and I accept the Quran as your holy book. To accept him for myself I would have to believe that the Bible is a lie and not a holy book, I would not be a Christian, I would be Muslim, and for you to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior you would not be Muslim and you would have to believe the Bible to be true.
I strive to have an open discussion in a respectful way. You see when we study the Bible we dissect it, we underline and write in it searching for the truth, actually studying it like for an exam, so this translate in how we have debates. I am under the impression that Muslims don't do this with the Quran and could be why it seems that we are being disrespectful when for us this is a normal process.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Muslims Attack Christian in Egypt, Cut Off His Ear
Posted GMT 3-26-2011 3:38:45
(AINA) -- A group of Muslims attacked Ayman Anwar Mitri, a 45 year old Christian Coptic man in the Upper Egyptian town of Qena, cutting off his ear. The Muslims claimed they were applying Sharia law because Mr. Mitri allegedly had an illicit affair with a Muslim woman. The Muslims called the police and told them "We have applied the law of Allah, now come and apply your law," according to Mr. Mitri in an interview for the Egyptian Human Rights Organization.
Mr. Mitri, a low grade administrator at a secondary school, from elHasweya, in Qena, 492 KM from Cairo, had rented his flat to two Muslim sisters, Abeer and Sabrin Saif Al-Nasr, through an agent. After nine months he learned the sisters had been indicted for prostitution, so he asked them to leave and they did.
On Sunday, March 20 Mr. Mitri was informed by a friend via a phone call at 4 AM that the flat where the Muslim sisters lived was on fire; he went to the flat. While waiting in the torched flat a Muslim named Alaa el Sunni came and berated him for renting his flat to prostitutes. "I tried to calm him down," said Mr. Mitri, "and told him I knew nothing about the two women since they came through an agent." Alaa suggested they would go somewhere quiet to clear the misunderstanding. They went to the flat of Mr. Mitri's friend Khaled, a policeman, where 12 Muslims were waiting for him. They started beating him and saying "We will teach you a lesson, Christian" and "This serves your right for renting your property to prostitutes."
Believing this was the end of the episode, they asked him to call the Muslim woman, so that they would send her to her father. When the woman refused to come, they asked a female Muslim neighbor to call her, saying that her belongings are with her. The woman, Sabrin, came and was told to say that she had a relationship with Mr. Mitri. "At first the woman refused, but after being beaten, she agreed," said Mr. Mitri.
Remembering his ordeal, he said that they sat him on a chair and a Muslim named elHusseiny cut his right ear off. "I felt so shocked that I do not even know what tool he used." They also made a a 10cm cut at the back of his neck, cut his other ear, his face and his arm (video showing wounds). Mr. Mitri said they wanted to throw him off the fifth floor but Khaled objected, saying he would get into trouble for just being there, since he is a policeman.
Mr. Mitri said that the Muslims tried to convert him to Islam, but he refused. The Muslims then called the police and told them to come and get the Copt saying "We have applied the law of Allah, now come and apply your civil law."
The police came and rescued Mitri and Sabrin, who told the police the Muslims forced her to lie about the illicit relationship between her and Mitri. A police report was issued, but no arrests were made.
"I feel humiliated and broken," said Mr. Mitri. "I have lost the income from the torched flat, my car, and have become disfigured. Who is going to restore my honor?"
His wife said in an interview that she is ashamed to go to work and feels very unsafe. She is afraid to let the children go to school and is hoping to leave the area.
At first Mr. Mitri said he wanted full compensation for his losses and even wanted revenge by cutting off the ear of the Muslim who cut his ear off. However, it was reported that a "reconciliation" meeting was made in the presence of Colonel Ahmed Masood, Vice military ruler of Qena, whereby Ayman Mitri and the Muslims came to an "agreement." Mr. Mitri had to withdraw the police report he filed against the Muslims.
Mr. Mitri appeared on the Coptic TV channel CTV, where he was asked about the reason he agreed to reconcile and forfeit his rights. Mitri said while sobbing "I was threatened, they threatened to kidnap the female children in our family."
Anba Kirollos, Bishop of Nag Hammadi, called on the armed forces to intervene and put an end to this "thuggery in the name of religion" so that this "infection" does not spread to other areas. He said if thuggery is put above the law the dignity and prestige of the State would be lost.
Well with everything what's going on in Egypt he should be thanking god for still being alive!!!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:"The Muslims then called the police and told them to come and get the Copt saying "We have applied the law of Allah, now come and apply your civil law."
After committing these horrific crimes they felt cocky enough to *call the police themselves*. (bcs they know they can get away withi it)
Key phrase:
quote:"Mr. Mitri had to withdraw the police report he filed against the Muslims."
Typical. You have to wonder what went on at this "reconciliation" meeting. More threats-possibly veiled ones-of what would happen to Mr. Mitri, his family, and his entire community of Christians were he to pursue his complaint.
quote:Ayman Mitri and the Muslims came to an "agreement."
The Agreement? Well, probably Mr. Mitri promised to forget about his ear that was, and the Muslims promised to forget they were offended. I have little doubt that Mr. Mitri is extremely reconciled having been leaned upon
Mr. Mitri appeared on the Coptic TV channel CTV, where he was asked about the reason he agreed to reconcile and forfeit his rights. Mitri said while sobbing "I was threatened, they threatened to kidnap the female children in our family."
Sounds like they made him an offer he couldn't refuse...
quote:When the woman refused to come, they asked a female Muslim neighbor to call her, saying that her belongings are with her. The woman, Sabrin, came and was told to say that she had a relationship with Mr. Mitri. "At first the woman refused, but after being beaten, she agreed," said Mr. Mitri.
First the Muslim mob tried to lure Sabrin using Mr. Mitri, then with a Muslimah who said she had her belongings. It is likely that Sabrin would trust both of these people, at least to some extent. Islam has a long, grisly history dating back to the baleful 'Prophet' of luring people using lies, and using people they are likely to trust.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"Anba Kirollos, Bishop of Nag Hammadi, called on the armed forces to intervene and put an end to this "thuggery in the name of religion" so that this "infection" does not spread to other areas. He said if thuggery is put above the law the dignity and prestige of the State would be lost."
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