posted
ok guys (this is hibbah by the way) I'm at home so i got a hold of my arabic/english dictionary and i looked up the word "khimar" (this is the word used in the quran that tells muslim women to cover their hair- the verse that when translated in english- often uses another word, like "cloak")
And the arabic word "khimar" (that is the arabic letters kha- meem- alif- ra) means this:
veil covering head and face of a woman.
the root word (which is how you look up words in an arabic dictionary) is kha-meem- ra: and it means to cover, hide, conceal.
im using the "Arabic English Dictionary- The Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic" Edited by J.M. Cowan- a compact version of the internationally recognized fourth edition.
The definition is on page 302.
Posts: 140 | From: TX | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
wouldn't you take that to be a modern definition of a word used in ancient times? In other words, the modern definition of khimar comes FROM the interpretation of that part of the Koran, does it not? I can look up khimar too, on the web, and what I get is sites selling them. But that doesn't do anything to further my understanding of what the word meant when it was originally used in the koran.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
no, i wouldnt take that to be a modern definition of a word used in ancient times.
B/c my dictionary is MSA which is almost identitical to Fusha Arabic- Quranic Arabic. Now if i were using a dictionary of say "egyptian colloquial" then you'd have a point.
Looking up things online amounts to a bunch of crap alot of times- people can write whatever they want, according to them.
But using a defining word, with a dictionary that is recognized internationally and is used in most universtiies, it more legititmate. This is how you have to enter into a debate- you have to define whats being debated first and formost- and you use an academically recognized source.
We do have the study of linguistics- and that cant be challenged.
Posts: 140 | From: TX | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I talked to a friend in Egypt since this last conversation. She said the word in Quran is not Khimar, but Khimooran (if i spelled it write).
Anyway, I went looking. Here is what I found. Your opinions?
وقل للمؤمنات يغضضن من ابصارهم ويحفظن فروجهن ولا يبدين زينتهن الا ما ظهر منها وليضربن بخمرهن علي جيوبهن ولا يبدين زينتهن الا لبعولتهن او ابائهن او اباء بعولتهن او ابنائهن او ابناء بعولتهن او اخوانهن او بني اخوانهن او بني اخواتهن او نسائهن او ما ملكت ايمانهن او التابعين غير اولي الاربة من الرجال او الطفل الذين لم يظهروا علي عورات النساء ولا يضربن بارجلهن ليعلم ما يخفين من زينتهن وتوبوا الي الله جميعا ايها المؤمنون لعلكم تفلحون
[24:31] Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudnamin absarihinna wayahfathnafuroojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa mathahara minha walyadribnabikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeenazeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinnaaw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna awabna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw baneeikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinnaaw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeenaghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifliallatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawratialnnisa-i wala yadribnabi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinnawatooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuhaalmu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
يأيها النبي قل لازواجك وبناتك ونساء المؤمنين يدينين عليهن من جلابيبهن ذلك ادني ان يعرفن فلا يؤذين وكان الله غفورا رحيما
[33:59] Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyuqul li-azwajika wabanatika wanisa-ialmu/mineena yudneena AAalayhinna min jalabeebihinna thalikaadna an yuAArafna fala yu/thayna wakanaAllahu ghafooran raheeman
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Ok. I was told that kha-meem-ra-ha-noon, specifically meant cover the head. Where khimar meant cover. As usual, I'm trying to sort it all out. LOL
Thanks Hibbah.
-------------------- شكرا و أللام عليكم شيبى Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 538: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."
In other ahadith this is an Isreali prostitute which shows ALL women wore these head coverings anyway as a cultural dress, it was the norm.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
the verse clearly is about using this head cover to cover the bosom its not saying you have to wear a head cover, its saying you have to cover the bosom.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: the verse clearly is about using this head cover to cover the bosom its not saying you have to wear a head cover, its saying you have to cover the bosom.
Does "draw your headscarf over the bosom" mean not to wear a head scarf? Why didn't Allah say "cover your bosom with clothes". why use a word of "head scarf"?
Do you think twisting The instruction of God is a good deed?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Sultan Im not twisting anything and im not trying to make it more complicated smucks.
The instruction is clear The instruction is to cover the bosom, the instruction does not say wear a scarf!! its to USE the scarf that ALL WOMEN WORE, to cover the bosom.
No sultan I do not think twisting the words of God is a good deed either, are you saying the words of God do NOT say use the scarf to cover the bosom??
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posted
but ayisha, if it says a headscarf, that implies it's already.. on the head. don't mean to make you upset, but we can make things complicated sometimes, I've been guilty of it myself I guess it just depends on your intrepretation of the words. peace. smuckers
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
smucks, there are numerous hadith about men wearing leather socks, do muslim men still wear them now?
All I am saying is that the head cover was worn by ALL women in those times in those countries, its not 'an instruction from God' it was a cultural dress already worn. The verse is about covering the bosom WITH the scarf already used, the emphasis is on covering the bosom and not on wearing a scarf.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
but in that argument we can say people wore pants and underwear, there was no instruction to wear them so why do we wear them now? However, I do kinda see your point, I do think it's ironic that born muslims are so quick to point out that the most important thing I should do (as a convert) is cover my head....forget about praying, being compassionate, truthful, etc., no, covering the head tops the list, kinda funny Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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"Khimar" is an Arabic word that can be found in the Quran in 24:31 While the first basic rule of Dress Code for the Muslim Women can be found in 7:26, the second rule of the DRESS CODE FOR WOMEN can be found in 24:31. Some Muslims quote verse 31 of sura 24 as containing the Hijab, or head cover, by pointing to the word, khomoorehenna, (from Khimar), forgetting that God already used the word Hijab, several times in the Quran.
Those blessed by God can see that the use of the word "Khimar" in this verse is not for "Hijab" or for head cover. Those who quote this verse usually add (Head cover) (veil) after the word Khomoorehenna, and usually between ( ), because it is their addition to the verse not God's.
Here it is 24:31;
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31
Here is Yousuf Ali's translation, but the word KHIMAR was put back in place instead of (veils), so the verse would look as it should have been before adding Ali's own interpretation:
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ... that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.." Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.
"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar ... etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.
In 24:31 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)(being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf ... etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.
God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.
The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (24:31), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.
The last part of the verse (24:31) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.
Notice also the expression in 24:31, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.
Again God here used this very general term to give us the freedom to decide according to our own circumstances the definition of "Which is necessary". It is not up to a scholar or to any particular person to define this term. God wants to leave it personal for every woman and no one can take it away from her.
Women who follow the basic rule number one i.e. righteousness, will have no problem making the right decision to reveal only which is necessary. The word "zeenatahunna" in this verse refers to the woman's body parts (beauty) and not to ornaments and decorations as some people interpret it or translate it.
At the end of the verse, God told the women not to strike with their feet to show their "zeenatahunna". You do not need to strike your feet to show your ornaments but the way you strike your feet while walking can expose or shake certain parts of the body that do not need to be emphasized.
Accepting orders from anybody but God, means idol-worship. That is how serious the matter of Hijab/ khimar is. Women who wear Hijab because of tradition or because they like it for personal reasons commit no sin, as long as they know that it is not part of this perfect religion. Those who are wearing it because they think God ordered it are committing Idol-worship, as God did not order it, the scholars did. These women have found for themselves another god than the One who revealed the Quran, complete, perfect and FULLY detailed to tell them they have to cover their heads to be Muslims.
Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.
posted
Insha'Allah you have come to understand the word Khimar (singular) is an action word meaning COVERING. Allah commands to conceal the adornments, thus we understand a woman's hair is adorned with color and decorations in modern times thus covering the head is a default for the Khimar (long cloth/scarf which covers head and chest) which drapes down to cover the breasts. Do not stomp means not to try to attract attention by walking in a sexual manner so men (or bisexuals,lesbians!) will notice. Assume by now you all have probably learned that "Bikhumurehena ala juyuw'behena" is a mandate from Allah and not an option. Allah says to draw (pull over, like a sheet covering your bed) the "Bikhumurehena" (speaking to ALL Muslimahs). Surah 24 ayat 31 is translated to say "...and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire (old men without these desires), or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment..." So obviously if Allah is telling women to cover adornments He wouldn't leave out the thing women decorate the most! The head and face, but prophet Muhammad (saaws) indicates in the ahadeeths the face, hands and feet can be exposed when around non family members who are males. Additionally if a Muslim woman works around homosexuals/lesbians these obligations of Khimar are required just as if these people have not strayed from their Fitra and were normal men attracted to women. What is an adornment? For those who reject ahadeeths you definitely need to make tauba and istikhara. Oh yeah, you don't know how to do that without ahadeeths. Oh yeah, you don't know how to make wu'du or salaat without ahadeeths either! So what kind of Muslims exist who don't follow Sahih ahadeeths from our great Imams? One who doesn't make salaat how Prophet Muhammd (saaws) made salaat is NOT a Muslim. So praying 3 times a day in your own manner without wu'du or only praying during Ramadan is pointless. May Allah ta'ala Azwajl guide everyone reading this to Islam and adhere to Quran and Sunnah.
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