posted
lovely but sad story Dalia, thanks for that.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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In the Old Testament, Lot was visited by angels looking to see whether there weere any just men in the city of Sodom. When a gang of men appeared at Lot’s door demanding that he turn his visitors over to them so that the mob could rape them, Lot offered the mob his own daughters instead; but the mob insisted that the visitors be handed over.
This is one of the Biblical passages that fundamentalists and anti-gay Christians point to when they condemn gay people for their sexuality. But the story appears in the Qur’an also, which is the holy book for Muslims. The Muslim prohibition against gay relationships is drawn from that scriptural episode--but now a gay Muslim scholar living in Canada says that the passage does not condemn gays at all. Rather, he argues, the Qur’an is condemning sexual assault; committed same-sex relationships based on love, and the people united in those relationships, should not be shunned by the faithful, but embraced as part of the community.
Dubai-born Canadian scholar Junaid Bin Jahangir, 31, is finding his new interpretation a hard sell, despite his years of careful research and study, reports an article from Canadian news agency Canwest in a Jan. 3 article.
Jahangir, a Ph.D. student in economics at the University of Alberta, has made understanding the Muslim injunction against gays--and correcting what he says is a misinterpretation of scripture--his vocation. His efforts are bearing fruit with his contribution to a new book, Islam and Homosexuality, a project edited by prominent Australian scholar Samar Habib that collects essays from contributors around the world.
Jahangir’s thesis may be an enlightening one, the article notes, but the man himself feels a need to shun the limelight: much as their Christian counterparts, anti-gay Islamic clerics dismiss gays as sinners, and some call for their deaths. Jahangir will not permit his photograph to be published in the media for fear that he might be targeted for violent reprisal.
Even his fellow academics have shunned the scholar--and his thesis that not only are gay relationships permitted under his interpretation of scripture, but they should be accorded equal status with heterosexual families.
"The apathy is unbelievable," said Jahangir. "How many more marriages do we want to fail as we pretend this doesn’t exist?"
The problems of gay married adults may be lamentable, but gay teens are even more at risk, he notes. "Gay youth are committing suicide. The 13- or 14-year-old girls, they are the ones who need this... what do they do [if they are gay]? Get married and follow through the motions? What joy do they have in their lives?" Adds Jahangir, "Let’s at least talk about the issue because it affects us all."
After he wrote an op-ed for the university’s student newspaper, the Muslim student association e-mailed its membership to tell them not to interact with Jahangir. "I’m a pariah," the scholar says, his own co-religionists having been told not to hear or consider his views. Jahangir no longer feels at home at a mosque; the article says he keeps clear of other Muslims.
It was only four years ago, at age 27, that Jahangir realized that he is gay. The truth hit him like a tidal wave, but Jahangir would not be so easily capsized: determined to understand the issue for himself, he devoted two years to feverish study, throwing himself into the Qur’an to determine the actual scriptural message about homosexuality, if any, and reading whatever he could in the way of learned commentary. His conclusion: since the scripture is actually talking about sexual assault, not loving relationships between individuals, and since the Muslim view is that the only forbidden things are those that are specifically identified in scripture, the widespread religious disapproval of gays is misplaced, and mistaken.
Jahangir’s contribution to Habib’s book examines the story of Lot (known as Lut in the Qur’an), determining that rape--not same-sex sexuality--is being condemned in the episode. "This is rape as a violent tool," says Jahangir. "That’s how you humiliate your enemies."
The interpretation that gay sexuality is what’s being condemned is not as clear-cut as other prohibitions, such as incest, which are unmistakably specified, Jahangir notes. "A story can be interpreted in so many different ways," he says. "Why does it have to be this?"
While violent sexual assault may be condemned in the pages of the Qu’ran, loving intimacy between men or women who form a family bond is a human need and should be honored as such. Notes Jahangir, "It’s not about sex. It’s about being alone in old age. It’s about living the full civil life of responsibility."
Gay Muslims are beginning to reclaim some of the most inflammatory and anti-gay aspects of their religion--at least, as it is practiced by some--for themselves, though their work does entail some social, and even physical, peril. Filmmaker Parvez Sharma angered some Muslims with his documentary A Jihad for Love, in which he investigated the lives of gay Muslims who had fled countries where their sexuality could get them imprisoned, or worse. Just as controversial was his use of the word "jihad," often translated as "holy war" and taken to mean a religious war against non-Muslims, but which, in the context of the film, refers to an internal struggle.
Sharma told EDGE in an interview, "In the Qu’ran, and in the teachings of Mohammed himself, there is [reference] to the greater jihad; and the greater jihad is always struggle with the self, which is what is pointed out in the film. And I certainly am not the only Muslim, and [the fellow who speaks about his inner struggle] is certainly not the only subject in the film, engaging with that concept of the bigger jihad right now. What is happening for all of us, whether we live Muslim countries, or whether we live in America, is this critical choice that we need to make at this time, which is, ’Are we going to choose the language of violence and oppression that a small minority speaks for, or are we going to claim the concepts that are inherent in our religion which talk about compassion, which talk about love, which talk about understanding?’ And this is extremely challenging; the people who are daring to speak out about this greater jihad are the ones who are going to take the discussion about Islam in a profoundly different direction."
The new push for openness and inquiry is not all about gays, but it does have a lot to do with sexuality and relationships of all sorts. In Dubai, marital counselor Wedad Lootah decided to speak out about what she had learned in the course of her work and studies, publishing a book about sexuality and relationships called Top Secret: Sexual Guidance for Married Couples, which some clerics viewed as blasphemous. The book does not look upon gays with a particularly kindly eye, but it is frank and forthright in its positive outlook on female sexuality, a New York Times article from last June 5 reports.
"People have said I was crazy, that I was straying from Islam, that I should be killed," Lootah told the New York Times. "Even my family ask why I must talk about this. I say: ’These problems happen every day and should not be ignored. This is the reality we are living.’"
Lootah’s book also publicly pronounces something that is widely known, if not always discussed openly: that young Muslim men often have sex with one another, due to religious prohibitions on sex outside of marriage. "Many men who had anal sex with men before marriage want the same thing with their wives, because they don’t know anything else," Lootah told the Times. "This is one reason we need sex education in our schools."
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Gay Muslim Scholar Shunned by the Faithful
In the Old Testament, Lot was visited by angels looking to see whether there weere any just men in the city of Sodom. When a gang of men appeared at Lot’s door demanding that he turn his visitors over to them so that the mob could rape them, Lot offered the mob his own daughters instead; but the mob insisted that the visitors be handed over.
This is one of the Biblical passages that fundamentalists and anti-gay Christians point to when they condemn gay people for their sexuality. But the story appears in the Qur’an also, which is the holy book for Muslims. The Muslim prohibition against gay relationships is drawn from that scriptural episode--but now a gay Muslim scholar living in Canada says that the passage does not condemn gays at all. Rather, he argues, the Qur’an is condemning sexual assault; committed same-sex relationships based on love, and the people united in those relationships, should not be shunned by the faithful, but embraced as part of the community.
Dubai-born Canadian scholar Junaid Bin Jahangir, 31, is finding his new interpretation a hard sell, despite his years of careful research and study, reports an article from Canadian news agency Canwest in a Jan. 3 article.
Jahangir, a Ph.D. student in economics at the University of Alberta, has made understanding the Muslim injunction against gays--and correcting what he says is a misinterpretation of scripture--his vocation. His efforts are bearing fruit with his contribution to a new book, Islam and Homosexuality, a project edited by prominent Australian scholar Samar Habib that collects essays from contributors around the world.
Jahangir’s thesis may be an enlightening one, the article notes, but the man himself feels a need to shun the limelight: much as their Christian counterparts, anti-gay Islamic clerics dismiss gays as sinners, and some call for their deaths. Jahangir will not permit his photograph to be published in the media for fear that he might be targeted for violent reprisal.
Even his fellow academics have shunned the scholar--and his thesis that not only are gay relationships permitted under his interpretation of scripture, but they should be accorded equal status with heterosexual families.
"The apathy is unbelievable," said Jahangir. "How many more marriages do we want to fail as we pretend this doesn’t exist?"
The problems of gay married adults may be lamentable, but gay teens are even more at risk, he notes. "Gay youth are committing suicide. The 13- or 14-year-old girls, they are the ones who need this... what do they do [if they are gay]? Get married and follow through the motions? What joy do they have in their lives?" Adds Jahangir, "Let’s at least talk about the issue because it affects us all."
After he wrote an op-ed for the university’s student newspaper, the Muslim student association e-mailed its membership to tell them not to interact with Jahangir. "I’m a pariah," the scholar says, his own co-religionists having been told not to hear or consider his views. Jahangir no longer feels at home at a mosque; the article says he keeps clear of other Muslims.
It was only four years ago, at age 27, that Jahangir realized that he is gay. The truth hit him like a tidal wave, but Jahangir would not be so easily capsized: determined to understand the issue for himself, he devoted two years to feverish study, throwing himself into the Qur’an to determine the actual scriptural message about homosexuality, if any, and reading whatever he could in the way of learned commentary. His conclusion: since the scripture is actually talking about sexual assault, not loving relationships between individuals, and since the Muslim view is that the only forbidden things are those that are specifically identified in scripture, the widespread religious disapproval of gays is misplaced, and mistaken.
Jahangir’s contribution to Habib’s book examines the story of Lot (known as Lut in the Qur’an), determining that rape--not same-sex sexuality--is being condemned in the episode. "This is rape as a violent tool," says Jahangir. "That’s how you humiliate your enemies."
The interpretation that gay sexuality is what’s being condemned is not as clear-cut as other prohibitions, such as incest, which are unmistakably specified, Jahangir notes. "A story can be interpreted in so many different ways," he says. "Why does it have to be this?"
While violent sexual assault may be condemned in the pages of the Qu’ran, loving intimacy between men or women who form a family bond is a human need and should be honored as such. Notes Jahangir, "It’s not about sex. It’s about being alone in old age. It’s about living the full civil life of responsibility."
Gay Muslims are beginning to reclaim some of the most inflammatory and anti-gay aspects of their religion--at least, as it is practiced by some--for themselves, though their work does entail some social, and even physical, peril. Filmmaker Parvez Sharma angered some Muslims with his documentary A Jihad for Love, in which he investigated the lives of gay Muslims who had fled countries where their sexuality could get them imprisoned, or worse. Just as controversial was his use of the word "jihad," often translated as "holy war" and taken to mean a religious war against non-Muslims, but which, in the context of the film, refers to an internal struggle.
Sharma told EDGE in an interview, "In the Qu’ran, and in the teachings of Mohammed himself, there is [reference] to the greater jihad; and the greater jihad is always struggle with the self, which is what is pointed out in the film. And I certainly am not the only Muslim, and [the fellow who speaks about his inner struggle] is certainly not the only subject in the film, engaging with that concept of the bigger jihad right now. What is happening for all of us, whether we live Muslim countries, or whether we live in America, is this critical choice that we need to make at this time, which is, ’Are we going to choose the language of violence and oppression that a small minority speaks for, or are we going to claim the concepts that are inherent in our religion which talk about compassion, which talk about love, which talk about understanding?’ And this is extremely challenging; the people who are daring to speak out about this greater jihad are the ones who are going to take the discussion about Islam in a profoundly different direction."
The new push for openness and inquiry is not all about gays, but it does have a lot to do with sexuality and relationships of all sorts. In Dubai, marital counselor Wedad Lootah decided to speak out about what she had learned in the course of her work and studies, publishing a book about sexuality and relationships called Top Secret: Sexual Guidance for Married Couples, which some clerics viewed as blasphemous. The book does not look upon gays with a particularly kindly eye, but it is frank and forthright in its positive outlook on female sexuality, a New York Times article from last June 5 reports.
"People have said I was crazy, that I was straying from Islam, that I should be killed," Lootah told the New York Times. "Even my family ask why I must talk about this. I say: ’These problems happen every day and should not be ignored. This is the reality we are living.’"
Lootah’s book also publicly pronounces something that is widely known, if not always discussed openly: that young Muslim men often have sex with one another, due to religious prohibitions on sex outside of marriage. "Many men who had anal sex with men before marriage want the same thing with their wives, because they don’t know anything else," Lootah told the Times. "This is one reason we need sex education in our schools."
It could very well be that Islam is gay friendly. After all, in the Muslim paradise, not only young virgins will be available for sex, but young boys will be available for sex as well.
Islam needs to get away from the distorted teachings of extremists and embrace the gay tolerance seen in many of the most sacred writings, along with other celebrated Islamic literature.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Koran 52:24 Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Koran 56:17 Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Koran 76:19 And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas:
O the joy of sodomy! So now be sodomites, you Arabs. Turn not away from it-- therein is wondrous pleasure. Take some coy lad with kiss-curls twisting on his temple and ride as he stands like some gazelle standing to her mate. A lad whom all can see girt with sword and belt not like your whore who has to go veiled. Make for smooth-faced boys and do your very best to mount them, for women are the mounts of the devils.
Posts: 90 | From: Paramaribo | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Gay Muslim Scholar Shunned by the Faithful
In the Old Testament, Lot was visited by angels looking to see whether there weere any just men in the city of Sodom. When a gang of men appeared at Lot’s door demanding that he turn his visitors over to them so that the mob could rape them, Lot offered the mob his own daughters instead; but the mob insisted that the visitors be handed over.
This is one of the Biblical passages that fundamentalists and anti-gay Christians point to when they condemn gay people for their sexuality.
[b]His conclusion: since the scripture is actually talking about sexual assault, not loving relationships between individuals, and since the Muslim view is that the only forbidden things are those that are specifically identified in scripture, the widespread religious disapproval of gays is misplaced, and mistaken.
I have to admit this area has puzzled me since I became aware that MANY Arab muslims practice this. Here in Egypt it is taken that the men that 'do' to other men are NOT gay and the ones that 'receive' ARE. I think this mentality is rife in all the Arab world. It has puzzled me because of the biblical reference where the wrong-doers are the ones that want to 'do' to the visitors, the visitors being the receivers are not in the wrong and not 'gay'. If this guy is right and the 'wrong' is rape then the entire Arab world is fooked and off to hell! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Ooh, a visitor from the mysterious Ancient Egypt section! I am curious ... do you speak Arabic? Because your profile says you're from Jamaica.
quote:Originally posted by Black Belt Jones: After all, in the Muslim paradise, not only young virgins will be available for sex, but young boys will be available for sex as well.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
The problem is that there has been a heated debated about the meaning of those verses for centuries. Scholars have interpreted them to speak about virgins, young boys, and even grapes.
Personally I don't think it makes sense to use them as an indication that there will be homosexual pleasures in paradise, just as it doesn't make sense to me to interpret them as speaking about eternal sex with young virgins. Imo, in order to figure out what the Qur'an actually says about homosexual relationships, it makes more sense to take a look at a number of other verses.
quote:Originally posted by Black Belt Jones: As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas:
*blush*
The Perfumed Garden is written by al-Nafzawi, not Abu Nuwas, btw. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I find this hypocritical since 98% of men in Islamic countries are gay. These people and moral police are being hypocrits because they are all gay. The Saudi King and all those Sheiks from the Islamic world are all gay and addicted to cocaine. The islamic world is filled with demons and hypocrits. They better hope they don't have an earthquake because there's a slim chance there will be any survivors since everything is built on sand.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Majority of gay men don't identify as gay because most of them get pleasure from fvcking men but not receiving it. This type of homosexuality is rampant in all countries and makeup the majority of homosexuals. Black men have this problem since many of them like to fvck men but will not allow men to fvck them. In islamic countries the men give and receive.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
@Dalia and Ayisha. By co-incedence I've read something about this. The religious scripts are not clear and people are trying to find a exploination. It is scientifically proved that people are finding that exploination by their own views : God thinks the way I am thinking. So, if I happen to be the one who is 'giving' and not the one who is 'receiving', God thinks I am not doing anything wrong. However, the one who is 'receiving' also shall have his own exploination that HE is the one who is not wrong.
To me personally, I think this is something what is connected to the monotheistic religions. They are having all that finger-pointing attitude; HE is bad and I am good.
Being homosexual is still an issue in certain fields of the western world. While it is scientifically proven that a certain percentage of the population is homosexual, there are complete fields that seem to exist without homosexuals, sports for example. There never has been a soccerplayer who has had admitted that he was gay, because it still is unaccepted, he would ruin his reputation by doing so.
So, the 'giving' Egyptian in this case, can ease his mind by telling himself that he is not the one who is doing wrong, the 'receiving' partner will do the same.
We are all easing our minds, and are all finding exploinations which are comforting ourselves. Not only in religious aspects...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
One of my less genius ideas recently was a suggestion to reduce the noise of car horns in the city. Was going to suggest that the traffic police sneakily put stickers on the back of cars reading "Honk if you're glad to be gay!"
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Wow so Islam should embrace Homosexuality??
Don't need to go over how I feel about Gay life, but it seems that one of the posters on this forum was promoting that there will be sex with young boys in Islamic Heaven.
Am I the only person that sees something wrong with what he said?
For the God of Islam to just create young boys for pedofile muslims just seems evil to me. What have these children done, to be used in such a way? The verses on Heaven in Islam are just plan foolish. All the lusts of the world will be up in heaven for the believing Muslim.
First Women will be created and now Boys all for the muslim man.
What I want to know is will there be Men created for the Muslim Women? Does anyone have an answer to this?
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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From reading your links, this person thinks that when the quran speaks of Houris, they actually mean Chairs and Food?
I really am a bit confused by this explanation. But if it makes you more comfortaBLE with the verses in the quran, then so be it.
But really when in the Quran it speaks about these houris which no jinn has touched, it seems you would have to take out big chunks of these verses just to reach the conclusion made by that person.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KING: Wow so Islam should embrace Homosexuality??
Every religion should accept homosexuality and homosexual people, instead of demonizing, hating and ostracizing them.
quote:Originally posted by KING: What I want to know is will there be Men created for the Muslim Women? Does anyone have an answer to this?
Nobody can have an answer to this since nobody ever went to paradise and came back to earth to tell the story.
My personal opinion ... there are many things that can't be described in our words and with our experiences. So all descriptions of heaven and hell are simply metaphors, nothing else. Those that see paradise as a place full of sexual delights, with women that are solely created for men's pleasure have entirely missed the point and are just slaves of their own patriarchal fantasies.
But we had an interesting discussion about paradise some time ago:
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Doesn't it says "you commit the biggest sin "?
when Prophet Lut told his people?!
Does not this mean that this is the unusual ?!
and if it isn't why God killed them all?!
if they were born with that thing ,Allah would not have been so angry ,but it is something they do to themselves.
no more arguments about the fags
please post the verses from Quran.
Are we going to spend 5 pages getting you to post the verses again Akmad? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Are we going to spend 5 pages getting you to post the verses again Akmad?
Don't torture the poor guy, Ayisha. We all know there is no such verse.
no no no Dalia, im sure he will find one.......eventually.......and say it doesnt mean what it says but it means something totally different Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: no more arguments about the fags
Great! I assume that means you will stop posting in this thread and leave the discussion to people who are able to have a mature debate without profanity and name calling.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Doesn't it says "you commit the biggest sin "?
when Prophet Lut told his people?!
Does not this mean that this is the unusual ?!
and if it isn't why God killed them all?!
if they were born with that thing ,Allah would not have been so angry ,but it is something they do to themselves.
no more arguments about the fags
please post the verses from Quran.
Are we going to spend 5 pages getting you to post the verses again Akmad?
poor Akyisha ,you do not know it ?!
i postd it before in some thread here it is again
007:80 "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: no more arguments about the fags
Great! I assume that means you will stop posting in this thread and leave the discussion to people who are able to have a mature debate without profanity and name calling.
Yes ,I will leave the fag thing to you .Fag Lovers
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Which part of this says "they were not born like this"?
Ah, wait ... I probably have to be a BIG SCIENTIST in order to see it, right?
And, no, this is not talking about homosexual behaviour in general, but about rape and a total loss of morals.
Furthermore, women are not being mentioned in here, so if you base your condemnation of homosexuality on that verse, you must be perfectly ok with Lesbianism. Great. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: no more arguments about the fags
Great! I assume that means you will stop posting in this thread and leave the discussion to people who are able to have a mature debate without profanity and name calling.
Yes ,I will leave the fag thing to you .Fag Lovers
then why do the men in YOUR country, and other Islamic countries, see 'doing' it to other men as ok and not gay but the ones who like to 'receive' it are called gay? The men of the time of Lot were the ones wanting to 'do' it, in fact to RAPE the other men, just like happens in Egypt. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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What needs to be understood is not the Acceptance of Homosexuality, But the acceptance of Homosexuals.
As the Bible teaches us we are to love the sinner, and hate the sin.
The people is who we are supposed to acknowledge and respect. The sad thing is that the world has these people deceived and thinking there is no escaping there lust. What needs to be shown to these people is the love of Jesus and he can bring them out of the evil influence of the enemy and his demons.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Are Some Heterosexuals More Likely To Be Prejudiced Than Others?
Empirical research shows that heterosexuals' attitudes toward gay men and lesbians are consistently correlated with various demographic, psychological, and social variables.
When thinking about these associations, it is important to remember two considerations. First, these associations describe general patterns in the population. Not all individuals fit those patterns.
Second, these are correlations, not statements of causal relationships. When two variables are correlated, it is possible that one causes the other (although which variable is the cause and which is the consequence cannot be known simply from a correlation). It is also possible that both variables are caused by a third variable.
For example, as shown below, the belief that homosexuality is freely chosen is correlated with higher levels of sexual prejudice. This relationship may mean that believing homosexuality to be a choice leads a person to hold negative attitudes toward gay men and lesbians. Or it may mean that people who hold negative attitudes are more receptive to beliefs that seem to attach blame to gay men and lesbians.
Or a third factor may be involved. For example, heterosexuals who have close gay or lesbian friends are more likely than others to hold favorable attitudes toward gay people in general and to believe that sexual orientation isn't a matter of personal choice. So it is possible that the correlation between sexual prejudice and beliefs about choice actually reflects the relationship of both variables to a third variable, namely, personal contact with openly gay men and lesbians.
With these considerations in mind, what characteristics tend to be associated with sexual prejudice?
Demographic Correlates
In contrast to heterosexuals with favorable attitudes toward gay people, those with negative attitudes are more likely to be:
~ men ~ older ~ less well-educated ~ residing in geographic areas where negative attitudes represent the norm (for example, rural areas or the Midwestern or Southern United States).
Political and Religious Values
In contrast to heterosexuals with favorable attitudes toward gay people, those with negative attitudes are:
~ more likely to attend religious services frequently ~ more likely to endorse orthodox religious beliefs, such as the literal truth of the Bible ~ more likely to be a Republican than a Democrat or Independent ~ more likely to describe themselves as politically conservative, rather than liberal or moderate.
Personality and Attitudinal Characteristics
In contrast to heterosexuals with favorable attitudes toward gay people, those with negative attitudes:
~ display higher levels of psychological authoritarianism ~ are less sexually permissive ~ are more supportive of traditional gender roles.
Perceptions and Experiences of Gay Men and Lesbians
In contrast to heterosexuals with favorable attitudes toward gay people, those with negative attitudes:
~ are more likely to believe that a homosexual orientation is freely chosen ~ are less likely to have had close personal friends or family members who are openly lesbian or gay.
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Which part of this says "they were not born like this"?
Ah, wait ... I probably have to be a BIG SCIENTIST in order to see it, right?
And, no, this is not talking about homosexual behavior in general, but about rape and a total loss of morals.
Furthermore, women are not being mentioned in here, so if you base your condemnation of homosexuality on that verse, you must be perfectly OK with Lesbianism. Great.
Because of your weak mind that can't understand and your blind eyes which can't see right . If you read it right ,th verse says "commit a sin ".if theywere born like that .it would not have been a sin . the lesbianism thing is also mentioned in Sunnah ,and the direct order is given in Sunnah that Islam prohibits them.
But what do I expect from some woman like you who do not care about God's words ?!
2:18 "They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)."
And tell me ,do you enjoy watching them or what ?! Since you defend them in this manner.
if so ,then wish yourself a good ****,.
I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
from Now on ,I will call you Mrs.fag fan
Do not forget to kiss Al-Sharameet when you meet them Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: One of my less genius ideas recently was a suggestion to reduce the noise of car horns in the city. Was going to suggest that the traffic police sneakily put stickers on the back of cars reading "Honk if you're glad to be gay!"
pmsl... but I can guarantee there would still be a lot of honking Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: [qb] "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Which part of this says "they were not born like this"?
Ah, wait ... I probably have to be a BIG SCIENTIST in order to see it, right?
And, no, this is not talking about homosexual behavior in general, but about rape and a total loss of morals.
Furthermore, women are not being mentioned in here, so if you base your condemnation of homosexuality on that verse, you must be perfectly OK with Lesbianism. Great.
Because of your weak mind that can't understand and your blind eyes which can't see right .
Is this how your teachers taught you Akmad? is this what you also say to your students if they dont see things your way?
quote:If you read it right ,th verse says "commit a sin ".if theywere born like that .it would not have been a sin .
so what was the sin? The sin was rape but your blind eyes and deaf ears dont want to see that because when you marry you will rape your wife, you dont even believe marital rape exists!! No the sin for your eyes is the sexual act between men irrelevant of it being rape. The sin YOU commit daily on this forum doesnt count either as you have also ignored many verses AND your blessed hadith in the way you speak to people. You, like many Arabs and Muslims, justify this by deciding what other people believe without looking at your own actions and hypocrisies.
quote:the lesbianism thing is also mentioned in Sunnah ,and the direct order is given in Sunnah that Islam prohibits them.
Direct orders are from God, not man. Hadith is not from God, you worship a man?
quote:But what do I expect from some woman like you who do not care about God's words ?!
If she didnt care about God's words she wouldnt spend most of her time searching religion. If you cared anything about God's words you would not ignore them for the words of men.
quote:2:18 "They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)."
exactly! Quran describes people just like you.
quote:And tell me ,do you enjoy watching them or what ?! Since you defend them in this manner.
if so ,then wish yourself a good ****,.
I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
from Now on ,I will call you Mrs.fag fan
Do not forget to kiss Al-Sharameet when you meet them
and now the childish nasty remarks because you are not mature enough to put forward a proper grown up discussion. You will be married of course, even if its to your cousin who would rather marry any other guy than a rigid self righteous arrogant little prick that you are.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
Oh my God ... you mean I will be an old SPINSTER ... one of those sad surplus women who spend their whole life deprived of the peace, affection, and protection of marital life and the joy of motherhood for which they naturally yearn with all their hearts?! I will become a plaything for lecherous men and will probably end up on the street if I can't find a man who takes care of me and gives me a dignified status and my life meaning.
What a dire prospect! Who will feed and clothe and guide me and decide whether I can think for myself or not? Who will explain religion and manners to me? Who will watch out that I won't go astray ... after all, it's well known that us women are way too weak and soft and morally unstable to survive on our own.
I think I will go and shoot myself now. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Oh my God ... I will probably end up on the street if I can't find a man who takes care of me and gives me a dignified status and my life meaning.
There is an Egyptian saying that goes: ( ظل راجل ولا ظل حيط ) meaning = Living in a man's shadow is much better than living in the shadow of a wall. Of course the "shadow" is self explanatory.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Oh, I know this saying, subz. Couldn't agree more.
Maybe you can help me out and take me out of this misery by making me your second wife ... pretty please?! I know you are a generous person and able to afford it. So think of all the 7asanat you will get for saving me from this joyless and pitiful existence. And you will contribute towards the allover improvement of society, wouldn't that be wonderful? After all, there is no greater danger threatening the fabric of Egyptian society than all those single women running around untamed!
P.S.: I'm good-looking and a great cook. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Oh Dalia, I would, except that I'm having three problems with your offer. First of which, I would rather rescue a fellow Muslim woman from that disastrous fate, I get more points you see. Second, you seem to sympathize with gays and lesbians and their right to have a life, which is considered as a direct threat to my stability and a bad example to follow. Third; you have a mind of your own, and you are not submissive, you seem to read a lot and developed a character and hold on to something called "equality". I'm afraid that turns me off.
If you are willing to "repent" and change the entire course of your belief, I would happy welcome you as my 4th wife.
P.S. I can look the other way if you want to be a concubine?! Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
Oh my God ... you mean I will be an old SPINSTER ... one of those sad surplus women who spend their whole life deprived of the peace, affection, and protection of marital life and the joy of motherhood for which they naturally yearn with all their hearts?! I will become a plaything for lecherous men and will probably end up on the street if I can't find a man who takes care of me and gives me a dignified status and my life meaning.
What a dire prospect! Who will feed and clothe and guide me and decide whether I can think for myself or not? Who will explain religion and manners to me? Who will watch out that I won't go astray ... after all, it's well known that us women are way too weak and soft and morally unstable to survive on our own.
I think I will go and shoot myself now.
ROFL!!! .... Men teaching manners?
Thanks Dalila, I love to laugh.
Look, I can pitch in with the "manners education", you have ES for the religious education, and it seems like your already fed and wear clothes.
Marriage doesn't bring peace....you just have to trust me on this one and there are joys in motherhood but there is also heart ache so look at the latter when you think about it. Quite frankly, I'm staring at spinster hood with a smile on my face...
...the down side is living without affection. but peace beats out affection any day. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: [qb] "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Which part of this says "they were not born like this"?
Ah, wait ... I probably have to be a BIG SCIENTIST in order to see it, right?
And, no, this is not talking about homosexual behavior in general, but about rape and a total loss of morals.
Furthermore, women are not being mentioned in here, so if you base your condemnation of homosexuality on that verse, you must be perfectly OK with Lesbianism. Great.
Because of your weak mind that can't understand and your blind eyes which can't see right .
Is this how your teachers taught you Akmad? is this what you also say to your students if they dont see things your way?
quote:If you read it right ,th verse says "commit a sin ".if theywere born like that .it would not have been a sin .
so what was the sin? The sin was rape but your blind eyes and deaf ears dont want to see that because when you marry you will rape your wife, you dont even believe marital rape exists!! No the sin for your eyes is the sexual act between men irrelevant of it being rape. The sin YOU commit daily on this forum doesnt count either as you have also ignored many verses AND your blessed hadith in the way you speak to people. You, like many Arabs and Muslims, justify this by deciding what other people believe without looking at your own actions and hypocrisies.
quote:the lesbianism thing is also mentioned in Sunnah ,and the direct order is given in Sunnah that Islam prohibits them.
Direct orders are from God, not man. Hadith is not from God, you worship a man?
quote:But what do I expect from some woman like you who do not care about God's words ?!
If she didnt care about God's words she wouldnt spend most of her time searching religion. If you cared anything about God's words you would not ignore them for the words of men.
quote:2:18 "They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)."
exactly! Quran describes people just like you.
quote:And tell me ,do you enjoy watching them or what ?! Since you defend them in this manner.
if so ,then wish yourself a good ****,.
I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
from Now on ,I will call you Mrs.fag fan
Do not forget to kiss Al-Sharameet when you meet them
and now the childish nasty remarks because you are not mature enough to put forward a proper grown up discussion. You will be married of course, even if its to your cousin who would rather marry any other guy than a rigid self righteous arrogant little prick that you are.
The legendary akiisha finaly talks after I posted the verse.
Go ahead gangs .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
Oh my God ... you mean I will be an old SPINSTER ... one of those sad surplus women who spend their whole life deprived of the peace, affection, and protection of marital life and the joy of motherhood for which they naturally yearn with all their hearts?! I will become a plaything for lecherous men and will probably end up on the street if I can't find a man who takes care of me and gives me a dignified status and my life meaning.
What a dire prospect! Who will feed and clothe and guide me and decide whether I can think for myself or not? Who will explain religion and manners to me? Who will watch out that I won't go astray ... after all, it's well known that us women are way too weak and soft and morally unstable to survive on our own.
I think I will go and shoot myself now.
Dalia dont worry, I was given a piece of advice when I first converted to Islam and I will share it with you. You can find any man to take you as a second wife who will care for you, it will save you from this awful prospect
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: [qb] "And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do youcommit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Al-Alamin (mankind and jinn)?"
Which part of this says "they were not born like this"?
Ah, wait ... I probably have to be a BIG SCIENTIST in order to see it, right?
And, no, this is not talking about homosexual behavior in general, but about rape and a total loss of morals.
Furthermore, women are not being mentioned in here, so if you base your condemnation of homosexuality on that verse, you must be perfectly OK with Lesbianism. Great.
Because of your weak mind that can't understand and your blind eyes which can't see right .
Is this how your teachers taught you Akmad? is this what you also say to your students if they dont see things your way?
quote:If you read it right ,th verse says "commit a sin ".if theywere born like that .it would not have been a sin .
so what was the sin? The sin was rape but your blind eyes and deaf ears dont want to see that because when you marry you will rape your wife, you dont even believe marital rape exists!! No the sin for your eyes is the sexual act between men irrelevant of it being rape. The sin YOU commit daily on this forum doesnt count either as you have also ignored many verses AND your blessed hadith in the way you speak to people. You, like many Arabs and Muslims, justify this by deciding what other people believe without looking at your own actions and hypocrisies.
quote:the lesbianism thing is also mentioned in Sunnah ,and the direct order is given in Sunnah that Islam prohibits them.
Direct orders are from God, not man. Hadith is not from God, you worship a man?
quote:But what do I expect from some woman like you who do not care about God's words ?!
If she didnt care about God's words she wouldnt spend most of her time searching religion. If you cared anything about God's words you would not ignore them for the words of men.
quote:2:18 "They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)."
exactly! Quran describes people just like you.
quote:And tell me ,do you enjoy watching them or what ?! Since you defend them in this manner.
if so ,then wish yourself a good ****,.
I bet you will never be married in your life because of your fear of men .
from Now on ,I will call you Mrs.fag fan
Do not forget to kiss Al-Sharameet when you meet them
and now the childish nasty remarks because you are not mature enough to put forward a proper grown up discussion. You will be married of course, even if its to your cousin who would rather marry any other guy than a rigid self righteous arrogant little prick that you are.
The legendary akiisha finaly talks after I posted the verse.
Go ahead gangs .
and again Akmad you add nothing to the discussion or answer any of the questions. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
^I do not have to answer any .You do not answer mine .REMEMBER WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE
"All I read for you is nonsense"
I am telling you ,it is mutual .
And I am going to do this with you
15:3 "Leave them to eat and enjoy, and let them be preoccupied with (false) hope. They will come to know!"
43:83 "So leave them (alone) to speak nonsense and play until they meet the Day of theirs which they have been promised."
You situation is similar to the pagans situation ,the same thinking and the same nonsense . Allah and the prophet told us to leave you alone ,till you perish with your rage . *I will not reply to your next post * This is exactly what i am going to do .
posted
Sexuality is personal and people should not be judged on which gender they prefer sexually. The same goes for religion.
Its all about respect and understanding- which y clearly lack Rahala.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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I see you are starting to educate yourself about European history and culture. Well done, keep it up. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Sexuality is personal and people should not be judged on which gender they prefer sexually. The same goes for religion.
Its all about respect and understanding- which y clearly lack Rahala.
Also your people and your country lack it .
Look at your government ,I think you read the news ,your government are gonna ban al-Niqab !
And do not tell me it is still in discussion process ,it will be banned eventually .
Remember it is all about respect and understanding ,something you and your ilk never heard about .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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I see you are starting to educate yourself about European history and culture. Well done, keep it up.
I do not need it ,All I need is my history which is Islamic/Coptic/Arabic /Ancient Egyptian Hostory .
You see I have a history of about 7000 years which should be studied .
I really do not need a 200 or 500 civilization which I do not care about except the sceintific production
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: You situation is similar to the pagans situation ,the same thinking and the same nonsense . Allah and the prophet told us to leave you alone ,till you perish with your rage . *I will not reply to your next post *
I dont see how my situation or my thinking are in any way similar to the pagans situation or thinking. I worship God Alone, however you worship God and his partner Muhammed through the hadith written by other men who your 'ilk' have elevated to be divine.
I have no rage Akmad, the rage and tantrums are shown in your posts not mine, I am perfectly calm.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: it seems like your already fed and wear clothes.
See, you don't understand this, gold. It is just not RIGHT that I should be working for my living; God has created me to stay at home and leave the hard work in the dangerous world outside to a man. And also -- you know that women going out of the house to work leads to mixing with non-mahram men, and that is prohibited! Can you imagine the fitnah that me, an unmarried, attractive woman -- is causing on a daily basis when I go out and mix with unrelated men! It's horrible, I feel so bad about all the sins I am gathering.
So, really, it would be better I find a man soon, even if he already has one or two or three wives, than to remain in this unacceptable state of being unmarried!
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Marriage doesn't bring peace....you just have to trust me on this one
If marriage doesn't bring you peeace, you can't be a real woman! Every woman yearns to have a husband and children and hold a sweet baby in her arms. If she doesn't, then there is something wrong with her, maybe she is a Lesbian or a feminist, or her brain has been twisted in some other way by those devilish Western influences.
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: the down side is living without affection. but peace beats out affection any day.
I see you lack a lot of understanding about Islamic marriage, gold. It is not about affection and romance, as we degraded Westerners who only care about lust and feeling good tend to believe. It's an honourable deal -- sex and service for the husband, a dignified position and maintenance for the wife. And of course one of the most important aims of marriage is to keep people chaste. What do you imagine will happen if we have all those unmarried people running around freely? Right ... fornication, disaster and -- ultimately -- the destruction of society as we can observe in the Western countries. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Sexuality is personal and people should not be judged on which gender they prefer sexually. The same goes for religion.
Its all about respect and understanding- which y clearly lack Rahala.
Also your people and your country lack it .
Look at your government ,I think you read the news ,your government are gonna ban al-Niqab !
And do not tell me it is still in discussion process ,it will be banned eventually .
Remember it is all about respect and understanding ,something you and your ilk never heard about .
This discussion is in all European countries. In fact it's a non-discussion because the number of women who are wearing this is minimal. In my opinion it is going in against freedom. The way I see it, a woman is free to wear whatever she wants, but she has to face the consequences herself. If this should mean that she cannot apply for some jobs, so be it. The problem is that there is a certain group of people who are not able to find a job and therefore ask for a social allowance. The reasons why they cannot find a job are for example: -Tattoos all over the face -Piercings all over the face -They are dirty, don't wash themselves -They behave intentionally unmannered and brutal or anti-social -They are wearing a burqa,and apply for a job where they have to be in contact with other people constantly -They are wearing gallabyea while that is dangerous in their work ( safety problem,responsebility from the boss, and it is against the law)
In the last two cases they refuse jobs which they can do. So, for example, a woman in a burqa could do office work, or other kind of work, but she insists to work in a field where she never can find a job.
It reminds me to something in the 70's, when there was a great number of jobless people. They have to registrate themselves, in order to get a social allowance. I knew somebody who was registered as a milkman. There WERE no milkmans at that time anymore, all the milk was sold in shops. Nevertheless he registered as milkman, and wasn't able to find a job... Therefore he could get a social allowance, and he didn't work for years.
This kind of issue's only show up as soon as there is a large abusement. Then the authorities wake up and are deciding to be more strict, to change laws, etc. It doesn't have to do anything with islam but with people who are abusing laws and rights, and this kind of people are everywhere.
As soon as in Egypt there is a problem with something, the authorities also become more strict, they also change laws etc. It is just a reaction to a problem, not because they are against the religion of that people.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
What's up with the obsession with nudist beaches, lol? I remember Bibo used to complain about them all the time as well. People seem to equate nudist beaches with public orgies ... if only they knew how ignorant that makes them look.
Nudism, btw., is not a recent phenomenon, but dates back many centuries:
In the fourth century BC, Alexander the Great encountered, in India, wandering groups of naked holy men whom he dubbed the naked philosophers. (Gr gymnos: naked; sophist: knowledge). The philosopher Onesicritus investigated their beliefs and lifestyle. Pyrrho the Sceptic was impressed and incorporated nudity into his philosophy. The Gymnosophists were Hindus, but Jain and Ajivika monks practised nudity as a statement that they had given up all worldly goods.
Nudity was not a new concept to the Greeks as the Olympic Games (founded in 776 BC) were exclusively male and nude events. Gymnastics and gymnasium share the same root (Gr gymnos).
But of course those who think European culture only dates back 200 years, would have never heard about this. Greek philosophy -- who cares about that? Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Sexuality is personal and people should not be judged on which gender they prefer sexually. The same goes for religion.
Its all about respect and understanding- which y clearly lack Rahala.
Also your people and your country lack it .
Look at your government ,I think you read the news ,your government are gonna ban al-Niqab !
didnt Al-Azhar also recently ban niqab? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: What's up with the obsession with nudist beaches, lol? I remember Bibo used to complain about them all the time as well. People seem to equate nudist beaches with public orgies ... if only they knew how ignorant that makes them look.
Nudism, btw., is not a recent phenomenon, but dates back many centuries:
In the fourth century BC, Alexander the Great encountered, in India, wandering groups of naked holy men whom he dubbed the naked philosophers. (Gr gymnos: naked; sophist: knowledge). The philosopher Onesicritus investigated their beliefs and lifestyle. Pyrrho the Sceptic was impressed and incorporated nudity into his philosophy. The Gymnosophists were Hindus, but Jain and Ajivika monks practised nudity as a statement that they had given up all worldly goods.
Nudity was not a new concept to the Greeks as the Olympic Games (founded in 776 BC) were exclusively male and nude events. Gymnastics and gymnasium share the same root (Gr gymnos).
But of course those who think European culture only dates back 200 years, would have never heard about this. Greek philosophy -- who cares about that?
Nudity dates back a long time Dalia and in the western world people are even born nude!
what kind of uneducated dumbo thinks European culture only date back 200 years? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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I am curious ... do you speak Arabic? Because your profile says you're from Jamaica. 
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Who will feed and clothe and guide me and decide whether I can think for myself or not? Who will explain religion and manners to me? Who will watch out that I won't go astray ... after all, it's well known that us women are way too weak and soft and morally unstable to survive on our own. 
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