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Page last updated at 16:53 GMT, Monday, 28 September 2009 17:53 UK
Egypt anger over virginity faking
By Magdi Abdelhadi BBC Arab Affairs analyst
A leading Egyptian scholar has demanded that people caught importing a female virginity-faking device into the country should face the death penalty.
Abdul Mouti Bayoumi said supplying the item was akin to spreading vice in society, a crime punishable by death in Islamic Sharia law.
The device is said to release liquid imitating blood, allowing a female to feign virginity on her wedding night.
There is a stigma about pre-marital sex in some conservative Arab societies.
The contraption is seen as a cheap and simple alternative to hymen repair surgery, which is carried out in secret by some clinics in the Middle East.
It is produced in China and has already become available in other parts of the Arab world.
The device is reported to be on sale in Syria for $15.
Professor Bayoumi, a scholar at the prestigious al-Azhar University, said it undermined the moral deterrent of fornication, which he described as a crime and one of the cardinal sins in Islam.
Members of parliament in Egypt have also called for banning import of the item.
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No more worry about losing your virginity. With this product, you can have your first night back anytime. Insert this artificial hymen into your vagina carefully. It will expand a little and make you feel tight. When your lover penetrate, it will ooze out a liquid that look like blood not too much but just the right amount. Add in a few moans and groans, you will pass through undetectable. Its easy to use, clinically proven non-toxic to human and has no side effects, no pain to use and no allergic reaction.
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Thanks for the link, Shah!! Although I can't really imagine how this device should be inserted without the man feeling betrayed. I guess and hope these guys are all virgins too so they won't know the difference!!
Btw, when I checked out the website I found male doll offers!! Now I know that some guys are kinda perverted and into these dolls but which woman would voluntarily use such a thing???? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Thanks for the link, Shah!! Although I can't really imagine how this device should be inserted without the man feeling betrayed. I guess and hope these guys are all virgins too so they won't know the difference!!
Try and tell us Tiger.. please, please, please Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Btw, when I checked out the website I found male doll offers!! Now I know that some guys are kinda perverted and into these dolls but which woman would voluntarily use such a thing????
Maybe the target group is men not women!
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: Maybe the target group is men not women!
EWWWWWWW.... now I am gonna skip my late night snack!!! :puke: :puke:
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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A leading Egyptian scholar has demanded that people caught importing a female virginity-faking device into the country should face the death penalty.
After all, if successfully used, it could get in the way of some stonings in the Middle East, and some honor killings elsewhere. Members of the Egyptian parliament have called for its banning; it's that big a deal. Of course, there are two angles to play here: One is pandering to the clerics and supporters of more stringent Sharia (in a country where the vast majority of women have undergone female genital mutilation). The other concerns the fact that it's easier to harp on the alleged moral failings of an already subjugated segment of society - one that is "deficient in religion and intellect," according to Muhammad (Bukhari 1.6.301) - than to address corruption, unemployment, and other issues.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Do dumbass guys not know that a womens hymen can be broken while horseriding for example or when using a tampon.
Having a broken hymen does not indicate she is no longer a virgin... backwards ass idiots.
I saw a blowup doll of the fairer sex once with a butthole as well... quite grim really!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Well years ago my then Slovakian au-pair which I employed had a not so great experience with a guy. To make the long story short: They met through a personal ad, were dating for a couple of months, she slept over at his place a few times. Well the one time she found a blow up doll stuffed inside the bedroom cupboard. She confronted him and he admitted that her name is ELVIRA and he's using her for 'relaxation'.Obviously he forgot to let the air out of Elvira to be able to hide her better. My au-pair was so disgusted she wouldn't even tell me for another few months why she suddenly split up with him. He was a really good-looking guy but quiet and shy.....he had a tough time to talk to any girl. Perhaps this explains his fixation on this doll. Double EWWWWW!!!!!!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Originally posted by Questionmarks: 1 USD 29.90 2 USD 27.90 3 USD 25.90 10 USD 23.00 50 USD 20.00
Hahaha, give me 50 artificial hymnes!!!
Didn't you say that you were outa ES ?? Can't anyone be bloody serious ? Its always porn that makes ppl. cum back. Where's that elegantly wasted chick ?? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Originally posted by Questionmarks: 1 USD 29.90 2 USD 27.90 3 USD 25.90 10 USD 23.00 50 USD 20.00
Hahaha, give me 50 artificial hymnes!!!
Didn't you say that you were outa ES ?? Can't anyone be bloody serious ? Its always porn that makes ppl. cum back. Where's that elegantly wasted chick ??
NOBODY ever leaves ES,Dzosser,no matter what they want to make us believe And is bloody more pathetic when they start a thread that the are "leaving" Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Where's Caitin ??
I bet she ran off with South-London male. At least she didnt pull out the "im leaving" drama card.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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Haha, that's why I need a artificial hymn. To be honest, I left because I felt like wasting to much time on rubbish. Specially the blame war topics in which it is Sono against a new opponent with the newest personal information being published. Don't like that. And I have been to Copenhagen. Nobody walked naked there. This topic made me laugh, that's why I couldn't resist making a remark... Hymn's being sold by 50 pcs...and people getting annoyed by that... They just are scared...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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€ 0,27 for a hymn...those Chinese are ruining the market... Those 52 virgins in heaven aren't worth much anymore, only € 14,-.Not worth doing the trouble... For less then a quarter of a million the whole city of Cairo would be virgin again.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: € 0,27 for a hymn...those Chinese are ruining the market... Those 52 virgins in heaven aren't worth much anymore, only € 14,-.Not worth doing the trouble... For less then a quarter of a million the whole city of Cairo would be virgin again.
You are so BAAAAAD!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Egyptians are the smartest con people on earth, it wouldn't fly in Cairo, China can sell this gizmo to the Dutch, that's if it matters to them. and I really doubt that. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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The Dutch brought this subject as news today, and the discussion of today was: Has Roman Polansky to be proscecuted for an rape 30 yrs ago? The US has asked the EU to arrest him and place him on a plane to the US, because he is on their Wanted-list since 1977, when he raped a 13 year old girl. The girl, in the meanwhile became a woman, has asked the US even this year (!) to stop the process, because Polanski shouldn't be a danger to society anymore. Now it became an international issue, the Suisse- where Polanski is visiting a filmfestival- are embarased, the French and the Polish ministers of foreign affairs requested Hillar Clinton for amnesty. So, no, the Dutch aren't particulary interested in imams who are excited because of the possibility that people might buy artificial hymnes, in order to fool their men, which also have to fool the women because they are supposed to not mentioning the differences because they aren't virgins themselves... Ai, this became a complicated sentence, but I guess you get what I mean... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: Having a broken hymen does not indicate she is no longer a virgin... backwards ass idiots.
There are many women who simply don't bleed the first time. I'm always surprised how many people are still ignorant enough to not be aware of this fact.
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Originally posted by Questionmarks: The Dutch brought this subject as news today, and the discussion of today was: Has Roman Polansky to be proscecuted for an rape 30 yrs ago? The US has asked the EU to arrest him and place him on a plane to the US, because he is on their Wanted-list since 1977, when he raped a 13 year old girl. The girl, in the meanwhile became a woman, has asked the US even this year (!) to stop the process, because Polanski shouldn't be a danger to society anymore. Now it became an international issue, the Suisse- where Polanski is visiting a filmfestival- are embarased, the French and the Polish ministers of foreign affairs requested Hillar Clinton for amnesty. So, no, the Dutch aren't particulary interested in imams who are excited because of the possibility that people might buy artificial hymnes, in order to fool their men, which also have to fool the women because they are supposed to not mentioning the differences because they aren't virgins themselves... Ai, this became a complicated sentence, but I guess you get what I mean...
What the fvck does Roman Polanski have to do with imams being excited due to hymens being sold in Egypt ?? Are you high on something ? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Haha, that's why I need a artificial hymn. To be honest, I left because I felt like wasting to much time on rubbish. Specially the blame war topics in which it is Sono against a new opponent with the newest personal information being published. Don't like that. And I have been to Copenhagen. Nobody walked naked there. This topic made me laugh, that's why I couldn't resist making a remark... Hymn's being sold by 50 pcs...and people getting annoyed by that... They just are scared...
Hey Dutch weirdo, its been the same batch of frauds and sugarmamas who have been blasting me for the longest time. You've been around long enough to see that for yourself.
THere are a few topics that urk me and this is one of them.
Why in the hell would a bunch of western women be so preoccupied with the genitals of Egyptian women?
Why? Its rather morbid and lesbo.
Beyond that I was wondering if you were that Dutch women "Marie" who has a flat in Cairo for her loverboy and that Marie has a husband who is a doctor.
Just wondering, you've never given specifics of your stays in Egypt. ANd when a lass goes to visit a gigolo in Egypt she rarely has an experiences that she wants to share, it can get embarrassing paying for sex in Egypt.
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yayyyy QM gets a fantasy life!! I bet you're glad you came back now girl
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by unfinished thought.: A leading Egyptian scholar has demanded that people caught importing a female virginity-faking device into the country should face the death penalty.
Some time ago, Soad Saleh issued a fatwa declaring reconstructive hymen surgery halal. So how can this dude demand the death penalty for something similar?
Personally, I don't agree with either, I don't agree with lying to your spouse, and I find the whole bloody (excuse the pun) virginity cult sickening, degrading, and backwards. And I'm anything but a fan of Soad Saleh. But the reasoning in this case was very valid and makes perfect sense in a society that follows serious double standards regarding sex before marriage.
MUFTI'S 'HYMEN FATWA' CAUSES SHOCK WAVES AMONG SCHOLARS
CAIRO: Reconstructive hymen surgery for women who lost their virginity before marriage is halal (religiously permissible), said Aly Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt.
Gomaa, the highest authority with the power to issue a fatwa (religious edict), appeared the popular terrestrial Channel Two’s talk show El Beit Beitek, where he condoned the controversial fatwa, released by Soad Saleh, the ex-dean of the faculty of Islamic studies at Al-Azhar University and noted scholar.
Shiekh Khaled El Gindy, an Al-Azhar scholar and member of the Higher Council of Islamic Studies told The Daily Star Egypt that he agrees with the new fatwa.
"Islam never differentiates between men and women, so it is not rational for us to think that God has placed a sign to indicate the virginity of women without having a similar sign to indicate the virginity of men," El Gindy said.
"Any man who is concerned about his prospective wife’s hymen should first provide a proof that he himself is virgin," he added.
El Gindy voiced his full support for Gomaa.
Not only did Gomaa acknowledge the fatwa but asked women who will undergo the contentious surgery not to tell their future spouses about it, since this is not a question of honesty.
"If God wants us to know everything about each other, He would have given us the ability to read each others' minds, so why did he not do so? Perhaps maybe someone would have a wrong idea about you now but will change it later," Gomaa said.
Even more shocking to many observers, Gomaa said that if a married woman had sexual intercourse with another man but truly regretted her actions and asked God for forgiveness, she should not tell her husband.
"According to Sharia, if a husband knew that his wife had sexual intercourse with anyone else, he should divorce her, so by not telling him she would be protecting her home and her life," he explained.
The fatwa has led to much controversy within Al-Azhar and Egyptian society as a whole.
In Upper Egypt honor crimes are still committed. If a woman loses her virginity out of wedlock, she is considered a big shame on everyone and deserves to die.
In response to such ideas, El Gindy told The Daily Star Egypt that, "Islam does not care for the feelings of ignorant people, just as the law does not protect the idiots."
Pinky Khoabane : Egyptian men had their pants in a knot at the thought of their prized possessions being able to trick them into thinking they were virgins.
Girls who 'pass' the examination are awarded certificates, while those who 'fail' are shamed News that a Chinese company had invented a kit to help women fake virginity had lawmakers in Egypt baying for blood this week. They are so incensed over this contraption that they are asking for it to be banned and the death penalty imposed for those who sneak it into the country.
I suspect that by the time you read this, throngs of men around the world will have joined the anti-fake virginity chorus and are traipsing the streets demanding a worldwide ban of the product.
But with the economic muscle that China wields these days, no number of men is going to deter manufacturers from cashing in on a huge market of women who are petrified of being "caught out" on their wedding night.
I can already see air passengers travelling from China being subjected to airport body checks akin to the ones conducted during the post-9/11 era, and a complete shutdown of diplomatic ties between China and Middle Eastern countries as a result of all this.
My premonition is not based on any supernatural powers I possess, but on our obsession with virginity.
Since time immemorial, virginity has been seen as a gift from God with which only a husband could tamper. A woman was, therefore, expected to "save it" until she was married.
This is patriarchy at its worst. While women have to preserve their virginity until marriage, men are not expected to abstain before marriage, or even in it, for that matter.
The notion that women who are virgins are pure and those who are not are sluts has for centuries prompted societies around the world to spend copious amounts of time verifying the status of a woman's virginity.
These tests have been varied, depending on different cultures, but have remained a contentious issue.
The concept of virginity itself has been marred by controversy - the virginity of Mary, despite her having had a child, is a case in point.
Although the practice has declined in some cultures, there has been a resurgence elsewhere as traditionalists tout it as the best method of encouraging abstinence and curbing HIV/Aids .
In some parts of KwaZulu-Natal, girls are tested as a matter of routine. In 2007, the practice was banned for girls younger than 16.
Girls who "pass" the examination are awarded certificates on the spot, while those who "fail" are shamed and ridiculed. A certificate, in other words, holds some social and financial prestige. Fathers of virgin girls demand a premium fee for them as part of the lobolo negotiations.
In other cultures, especially in the Muslim world, proof of a woman's chastity is tested on the wedding night.
The absence of blood on the sheets signifies that the woman is not quite the virgin Madonna speaks of in the lyrics to the song, Like A Virgin: ''Touched for the very first time."
The problem is that these examinations are often inaccurate and yet can be so fatal for women.
For starters, there is no scientific standard on which the tests are based. Anything can be inserted, from fingers to eggs, into the vagina to ascertain whether women are virgins.
Imagine those grubby hands probing one's private parts. It is such a violation of privacy.
Some girls fail the test because they are victims of rape or incest, and the much-touted layer of hymen, which most cultures search for in virginity tests, is not present in every woman. Some women are born without it and will not bleed on their wedding night.
Passing or failing the test often has dire consequences for women.
There was a time in South Africa when sleeping with a virgin was considered a cure for Aids.
As recently as last year, a French court annulled a marriage on the grounds that the bride was not a virgin.
Women have had no choice but to find ways of faking it, not necessarily because they have lost their virginity, but for fear of the consequences of failing the test.
Some cut themselves or use animal blood for the occasion, while others opt for surgical procedures to replace the hymen which, it is said, once penetrated will produce the tell-tale bleeding on the first night.
Here is the thing, boys: you have been duped for years and have not even realised it.
So, get over yourselves and get to grips with the 21st century.
While Chinese women work to produce anything that sells and raise their country to new heights as an emerging power, Muslim women remain embroiled still in proving that their worth is more than just their virginity
Clerics in Egypt are in a quandary. A new device made by a Chinese company threatens to make every Egyptian woman who uses it, a virgin. The “Artificial Virginity Hymen Kit” distributed by Gigimo costs about USD30 and is intended to help newly married women fool their husbands into believing that they are virgins by producing a small amount of blood-like substance during intercourse.
The controversy began when a reporter from a Dutch radio station broadcast an Arabic translation of the Chinese advertisement for the product. Conservative members of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt’s Parliament have since asked for a ban on the device. Prominent Egyptian scholar Abdel Moati Bayoumi said anyone who imports the device should be punished, saying “This product encourages illicit sexual relations; Islamic culture forbids these relations except within the confines of marriage.”
The controversy over virginity and the newly-provided ability to fake it, hits at the center of questions regarding the status of women in much of the Muslim world. Questions regarding female purity hold a crucial position in evaluating the worth of a woman and negotiating marriage contracts. In Egypt itself, thousands of women undergo hymen reconstruction surgery every year to fulfill preconditions of virginity for marriage and avoid bringing shame to families.
The practice of hymen reconstruction surgery has migrated with Arab populations to European countries like France where young Muslim women may undergo the half-hour surgery for a cost of about 2000 Euros. Others choose to go back to countries like Tunisia where they can get the surgery at lower cost. The surgery is legal in the European Union as well as in the United States where it falls in the category of elective surgery.
While surgery itself is less common in Pakistan, women are routinely abused, tortured and even killed if they are found to be non-virgins upon being wed. In several cases, young brides have been known to commit suicide rather than risk bringing shame to their families.
The issue of whether virginity constitutes the total worth of a woman upon marriage (rendering her otherwise unmarriageable) was dealt with recently in a courtroom in the French city of Lille where the judge initially ruled that a marriage between a Muslim man and a woman could be annulled because the bride had lied about her virginity.
A French appeals court then took up the issue of whether virginity was “an essential quality of a woman” and ended up reversing the previous decision that had decreed lying about virginity to be grounds for fraud that would justify annulment. Of course, the outcome of the case would have been markedly different under Islamic law where deception regarding the virginity of the bride would result both in an annulment of the marriage and a repudiation of the dower.
Expectedly, as the news clips from Egypt amply illustrate, much of the clerical debate over the device has focused on the fact that it allows women to fake and flout the theological precept prescribing a prohibition on pre-marital sexual relations. No argument is provided for the fact that the male involved may also have come to the marriage without proof of virginity, which is equally theologically culpable but less easily verified. The assumption is that women’s virginity must necessarily be verifiable hence necessitating the ban on the Chinese virginity gadget while male virginity can conveniently be glossed over.
Equally sexist are attempts to justify the concern over women’s virginity as motivated by ensuring the sexual purity of society in general since it ignores the reality that every pre- or extra-marital heterosexual act by definition involves two parties, one male and one female, which are both equally responsible for their actions.
The fact is, in Egypt, as in a majority of Muslim countries, the onus of protecting a society’s delusions of purity and piety are placed solely and singularly on the shoulders of women. In ensuring that virgins are venerated and non-virgins vilified, social constructions of good and bad women are enforced in a society where the value of a woman is little else than her ability to breed sons, please her husband and be a good housekeeper. The myth that is continually forwarded is that all those women who are not virgins are somehow dirty, impure and unworthy of marriage. No consideration is given to the fact that the majority of these women may be widows, divorcees or victims of sexual assault. In other words, male complicity in reducing women to a non-virgin status is completely ignored in the whole discussion.
Because of this, thousands of widows, divorcees and rape victims in countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are forced to live lives at the very margins of social acceptability. Not only can they not expect to be married again, they are further dealt the burden of being somehow morally compromised simply because they are no longer the pure virgins venerated as brides. Examples from Islamic history that suggest otherwise, for instance, the notable fact that the first marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) was to a widow are given short shrift and virtually ignored.
It is interesting indeed, that the device in question that provides Muslim women with some semblance of empowerment against the strictures of proving their purity has been made in China. Indeed, it brings to focus the vast disparity between nations like China, who have put their women to work and hence harnessed 51% of an unused labor force to become a manufacturing super power and countries like Pakistan and Egypt who are still squabbling over inanities that necessitate a device like the Artificial Hymen Kit.
While Chinese women work to produce anything that sells and raise their country to new heights as an emerging power, Muslim women remain embroiled still in proving that their worth is more than just their virginity.
In the run-up to the Frankfurt Book Fair, German-Turkish writer Seyran Ates discusses her new book, which describes the necessity of a sexual revolution in the Islamic world, the recent integration debate in Germany and the arrogance of German women's rights activists.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Ates, in your controversial new book, you call for a sexual revolution in the Islamic world.
Ates: You don't know how necessary that is.
SPIEGEL: But what exactly do you mean by a sexual revolution?
Ates: My use of the term is based on Wilhelm Reich and his book about the sexual revolution. I believe that the Islamic world must grapple with the consequences of rigid sexual morals, not unlike the way, as he describes, the Soviet Union dealt with its own circumstances. It must pursue the path of change, just as any totalitarian system must do when it wants to become a democratic society. Part of the process is that sexuality has to be recognized as something that every individual determines for himself or herself. Institutions like moral and religious police must be abolished. People who have sex before marriage cannot be punished or ostracized by society. Parents must be confronted with the question of why they do not allow their 16-year-old daughter to have a boyfriend, while their sons can brag about how many girlfriends they have. Sex education must be taught in the classroom. Parents shouldn't have to do it, but they should accept it when the schools do it. Young and old people who are already living a self-determined sexuality in the Islamic world have to be more confident and make their voices heard.
SPIEGEL: Where do you see signs that the time has come for such a development?
Ates: Many young people have sex before marriage, and many aren't even great believers in the institution of marriage. Just look at these young people. They are burning up with passion. They have such a lust for life, and yet they are so inhibited. People in the Middle East are poets, writing poetry from morning to night, and what do they write poetry about? About desire. The little boy in the street does it, and so do the construction worker and the academic. They are all writing poetry about the same subject, the subject that is suppressed more than anything else.
SPIEGEL: You mention people in the Middle East, but there are Muslims all over the world. The world's largest Islamic country is Indonesia, an Asian country. In fact, it's impossible to refer to Muslims as a uniform group.
Ates: I think it is possible. There is a strong cultural connection among the world's Muslims: religion. I find that it's a wonderful religion, but the cultural interpretation of this religion has led to sexual repression. It wasn't terribly different in the West not very long ago. But I don't want to make a blanket judgment and treat all Germans and Muslims the same.
SPIEGEL: It's also difficult to pass judgment about a community that may not be all that homogeneous. Thilo Sarrazin, a board member at the Bundesbank (Germany's central bank), came under fire recently when he complained about German Muslims, particularly in Berlin. Was he right?
Ates: I believe that Mr. Sarrazin's remarks were to the point and correct. We have serious problems in our multicultural society. Mr. Sarrazin isn't the first to have brought them up.
SPIEGEL: In other words, he was completely in the right?
Ates: No, it's more complicated than that. Mr. Sarrazin is a German, and when a high-profile German publicly refers to Turks having no "productive function," there is great potential for misinterpretation. I know Turks on the street who say things like that, but they're allowed to. Mr. Sarrazin isn't -- no matter how good the rest of his article was, and regardless of whether everyone who is so upset about it now actually read it. But we Muslims have to lead these discussions, because they are about us.
SPIEGEL: Okay, then tell us what you've experienced. You were one of those supposedly typical girls, living with your parents in Berlin and being kept away from love.
Ates: Sex was not discussed in my family. And steps were taken to ensure that I had as little contact with boys as possible. Naturally, I wasn't allowed to have a boyfriend. None of it was actually said. They didn't sit down and say: Dear daughter, you are a girl, and that's why you can't have a boyfriend, because we don't want you to sleep with a man before marriage. Or: Dear daughter, you have a hymen, and we have to make sure that that hymen remains intact until your wedding. The entire system is designed so that everyone is given unspoken instructions on what to do -- or rather, what not to do.
SPIEGEL: Why is the hymen so important?
Ates: Because it was capital, capital between my legs.
SPIEGEL: How do Muslim parents manage to enforce this obedience you describe? Many German parents can't even get their children to carry their plates from the table to the dishwasher.
Ates: German parents have forgotten how much they can rely on their children's affection. Children are loyal. From the moment they are born, they grow into a system from which they want acceptance, love and acknowledgment. Many German Turks severely isolate themselves from the world around them. That too creates a sense of community.
SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, in your book you describe a world that is internally divided in several ways. You argue that there is a double standard, a discrepancy between the façade and the inner life.
Ates: Yes, that's the way I see it. I conducted interviews for my book. Many young people I interviewed complained that they could only have anal sex, because of the hymen. The parents suspect and know about it, and yet they do not release their children from their absurd demands. If that isn't a double standard, what is?
SPIEGEL: In German-Turkish director Fatih Akin's film "Against the Wall," there is a scene in which two Turkish men are sitting there, playing a board game. One of them says: Should we go to the whorehouse? The other one says: Don't you have any of your own women to ****? Then the first man smashes a bottle, holds it up to the second man's throat and says: Never mention the word fucking again when you talk about our women. Do you think that's a realistic scene?
Ates: Yes. The men in the cafés talk about their sexual escapades, but never about those with their own wives. The wife is sacrosanct. Married couples told me that sexuality in marriage has been more or less reduced to a perfunctory act.
SPIEGEL: Why do you believe that this differs from many marriages in other cultures?
Ates: It doesn't necessarily have to be different, but the point is a completely different one. Many Muslims don't even allow themselves to think about what exactly sexuality means in their marriages. It's simply accepted that the men have their fun in brothels.
SPIEGEL: German husbands also frequent brothels.
Ates: But they certainly don't make such a point of letting their wives know about it. Turkish men who frequent brothels don't necessarily discuss it directly with their wives, but it's often very clear that that is the case, and that the women are expected to accept it.
SPIEGEL: This hidden passion you describe -- if you think it's so powerful, why doesn't it prevail over religion?
Ates: Conservative forces have a lot of political power in the Islamic world. They have power and control over half the population, namely the women. They spread fear and they use violence. Making sexuality taboo enables them to isolate themselves from the West, which, of course, is a monster and is to blame for all the bad things in this world. Our religion, they say, helps to keep us from being taken over by the West. We are the better ones, the authentic ones. This mentality makes it possible to avoid even mentioning one's own failure.
SPIEGEL: Is the West a valid role model for sexual revolution?
Ates: I just want to point out a natural path to freedom. All people want to be free. That isn't something the West invented.
SPIEGEL: How do you feel about the treatment of pornography and violence in the West?
Ates: We have attained a self-determined sexuality in the West that I would like to see in the rest of the world. Of course, there are always excesses: child pornography, prostitution as a flat-rate service, sexuality that happens too early and is devoid of emotion. I'm not saying that everything works perfectly in the West. I believe that we Muslims can also mirror the West, and that we can all ask ourselves what went well, what went wrong, and why.
SPIEGEL: You claim that because many Muslim children are supposedly afraid to challenge authority at home, they are more likely to characterize female German teachers as sluts.
Ates: There is so much condescension and so little recognition, love, affection and encouragement of children. They have to vent their anger at some point.
SPIEGEL: Muhammad had a dozen wives. Is he a role model?
Ates: When an Arab man needs a justification for having several wives, he says: It was the same with Muhammad.
SPIEGEL: Christian men don't have that excuse.
Ates: No, but it's a shame that Christians worship such an asexual man. Muslims are in a better position, in that respect, but this need of the man to have several women, legitimized by Muhammad, has led to a hidden and extreme sexualizing of Islam.
SPIEGEL: You call for a revolution, but doesn't that take a lot of time?
Ates: Look at the student uprisings here in Germany. Something happened, and suddenly young people took to the streets. We saw the same thing in Iran after the election: The young people were prepared to protest. We now have this one opportunity to drive up the boiling point, using all the democratic and political means at our disposal.
SPIEGEL: But there is one thing you can't change: The lack of simultaneity between the West and parts of Islamic societies in terms of cultural development.
Ates: That's the big problem we have: the acceptance of this lack of simultaneity in religion and culture. If we could at least acknowledge its existence. They've come a lot further at universities in Turkey than the protagonists in the integration debate here in Germany have.
SPIEGEL: What troubles you about that?
Ates: Particularly here in Germany, there are some very deep archaic self-images -- including those among leftist German feminist women -- of the whites who behave like big sisters. It's very arrogant. These women rail against the Catholic Church and its rigid sexual morals, but they insist that we tolerate Turkish women wearing the headscarf, because they believe that this enables the women to preserve their culture. But as far as I'm concerned, this headscarf is nothing but an expression of oppression and inhibition, and of the fact that the men would prefer to hide the women.
SPIEGEL: Do you believe in God?
Ates: I believe in God.
SPIEGEL: Did you fast during Ramadan?
Ates: I do not fast during Ramadan.
SPIEGEL: Do you pray five times a day?
Ates: I pray, but not five times a day.
SPIEGEL: Do you go to the mosque?
Ates: I don't go to a mosque, because there are no mosques that appeal to me. One of my latest ideas is to establish a free, progressive mosque.
SPIEGEL: With a female imam?
Ates: Exactly, with a female imam and with equal access to all parts of the mosque for men and women. There must be an end to the presence of conservative Muslims, who want to reserve Islam for a specific group. We liberal Muslims don't want the separations among Shiites, Sunnis and Alawites. We want to participate jointly in a contemporary interpretation of Islam.
SPIEGEL: How does your God feel about sex?
Ates: My God is very open about sex, having created me as a person for whom it's important. Of course, my conviction that God exists is also based on personal experiences. When I was 21, in my third semester of studying law, I was shot in a counseling center for women from Turkey. I lost a lot of blood and had a near-death experience. It was as if I was having a dialogue with a higher power and was given the chance to decide whether I wanted to leave this world or return to it. I never saw religion exclusively as something negative.
SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, you have come a long way from the things that once influenced you. Your new book was almost titled: "I'll **** Whoever I Want." Were your parents aware of this?
Ates: No, and I'm very happy now that the publishing house stepped in, because my book is completely serious. "I'll **** whoever I want" was the sentence Hatun Sürücü, a Turkish girl from Berlin, said to her brother before he murdered her, and that's how I came up with the idea to use it as my title. My parents, by the way, have come a long way. They respect my life today, even the fact that I'm a single mother. They love their grandchild. My father now says that he can't imagine a Turkish man who could put up with me. He understands what I've accomplished. I once said to my father: You know, having a child and wanting a man doesn't seem to work, so maybe I'll end up with a woman, after all. He said: You know, I was thinking the same thing myself.
SPIEGEL: How were your parents able to get that far?
Ates: Out of love for me. And because they did not refuse to accept the influences of the West and the modern world. My parents were farmers, with almost no education at all. They came to Germany to offer their children a future and to improve their own economic situation. At first, the needs of their children played no role in the way we were raised. But my mother learned how to read and write at 50. They have since returned to Turkey, where they now live in a house with a garden and view of the sea. They have 13 grandchildren. And they allow us, their five children, to live the way we please. They are proud that we all have a profession. My parents' dreams came true because they were willing to grow.
SPIEGEL: Ms. Ates, we thank you for this interview.
posted
A New Bang for your Buck: Fake Hymens for Sale
Last month, Soad Abdel Rassoul from Radio Netherlands published an Arabic translation for a Chinese advertisement targeting Middle East countries. The product? Artificial Virginity Hymen.
The majority of comments on this product have been from men. Interestingly, the only woman to speak out on this issue so far is Abdel Rassoul.
Abdel Rassoul said:
China is a coutnry that has really understood us and revealed our truth, our diseases, and our obsession with image but not content. We are a contradictory nation that suffers from severe schizophrenia.
By selling us prayer beads, Ramadan lanterns, Hajj clothes, veiled Barbie dolls, Islamic swimsuits, and no hymens, China has been caressing the “Islamic” concept inside all of us by providing us with the image of what we want others to see in us, even if it is just a lie.
Afterwards, a lot of buzz started to evolve around the possibility of having such a product in Egypt: many bloggers posted their opinions about it, comments and topics were on several forums, even jokes started to spread about the issue. Sheikh Saied Askar, a member of the parliamentary bloc of the Muslim Brotherhood and a member of the Committee of Religious Affairs of the People’s Assembly, has stated a warning to the Egyptian government from allowing such an action on the bloc’s official website. Sheikh Askar stated:
Girls in general are afraid of committing such a sin for the sake of preserving their membranes and the presence of such products will tempt the weak souls to commit it as the availability of an alternative is now everywhere.
On the same site, Dr. Fared Ismail, member of the same bloc and Health Committee of People’s Assembly, strongly disapproved allowing the entrance of this product in the Egyptian market considering this action—in his own words–“mutilation of the society’s high values”.
In his comment on the issue for the BBC news, Professor Abdul Mouti Bayoumi, a professor at Al Azhar university, said this of the fake virginity product:
“[This product’s release is] Akin to spreading vice in society, a crime punishable by death in Islamic Sharia law.”
So any Egyptian girl who doesn’t have premarital sexual relationships does so only for the sake of staying a virgin? So virginity as a virtue and a concept is all about the hymen? I am not defending the product, nor am I defending premarital sex. I am offended by the implication and questioning the value of “virginity”.
Let’s assume for a second that this is the case, that the hymen is everything. So this is how women are supposed to be treated? Like children who are better kept away from danger cause they are incapable neither of protecting themselves, nor telling right from wrong? Notice how Askar refers to women as “girls.”
According to Askar, a woman is a weak creature who is incapable of choosing what to do and what not to do, and is easily tempted to commit “sins” if they became closer and easier to her. No mention is made of how the fake hymen may tempt men to sin—doesn’t a man face the same temptation?
Rather than asking ourselves what made China come up with such an idea or why there’s a very high possibility that the manufacturer of this product might hit his first million from selling it in Egypt, we are “afraid” that it might just make sex easier and in turn, more common.
In a community that worships appearances and gives minimal—if any—attention to the reality of things, it’s no wonder that news of a product like this can spread quickly.
Also a lot of the buzz surrounded the fact that the existence of such an option will make it harder for men to make sure that their brides are natural virgins or not, as if the worth of a wife was measured only by her hymen. Not to mention the fact that now women can have premarital sexual experiences without detection the same way men have been able to do.
What would make a girl uses such a product and lie such a lie? In a community that never blames a man for having premarital sex (and in fact sometimes considers it a plus), a woman takes all the blame, which can end in ruined reputations, inability to find a husband, or even “honor killings.” So the fake hymen is a way to survive, or at the least, have one’s cake and eat it, too.
Rather than fearing the spread of the complications, I think it’s better to look closer to the main reason of the problem … not just what it “looks” like or what’s on the surface. Otherwise, don’t blame someone who tries to fix the problem in the same way!
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Make sure ,Islam does not need any sexual revolution nor does it need any facked up faking god damn devices
No, Islam doesn't need it, but it's obviously needed in societies where this sick sort of virginity cult is still being practiced. If that wasn't the case, such items wouldn't even be produced, and hymen reconstruction surgeries wouldn't exist. It's all about demand and supply.
Ah, ignorance is such a bliss!
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Make sure ,Islam does not need any sexual revolution nor does it need any facked up faking god damn devices
No, Islam doesn't need it, but it's obviously needed in societies where this sick sort of virginity cult is still being practiced. If that wasn't the case, such items wouldn't even be produced, and hymen reconstruction surgeries wouldn't exist. It's all about demand and supply.
Ah, ignorance is such a bliss!
probably is but watching the ignorant is painful sometimes Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Make sure ,Islam does not need any sexual revolution nor does it need any facked up faking god damn devices
No, Islam doesn't need it, but it's obviously needed in societies where this sick sort of virginity cult is still being practiced. If that wasn't the case, such items wouldn't even be produced, and hymen reconstruction surgeries wouldn't exist. It's all about demand and supply.
Ah, ignorance is such a bliss!
I wanted to make that point!!!
Good to see the women totally lacking respect for the men though in light of some posts by egyptian men. Seems women are actually in control and openly taking the pee out of some knuckle dragging boys!
I'm gonna get me one Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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In almost every country there happens to be 2 taboos; politics and religion. But in Egypt and some Arabian countries, we couldn’t settle for less than 3; politics, religion and sex!
And even though it’s a taboo, as a society we forced a bunch of codes 3shan 2al el eh nenazam el 3amalya, for everyone has to know his rights and limits! But what the founders of the Egyptian-sex code- whom I sincerely which a lifetime of happiness in hell- didn’t realize, is that what they actually created had put a large crimp in our already scattered world and here’s why…
#1: The porn denial
2olna meet mara, we need a proper sex-education from a reliable and respectful source w m7adsh sem3! Now, it’s almost a marvel when a kid gets educated by his parents about such a life necessity! Tyb what happens to the remaining less fortunate population? Since curiosity happens to be at its peak during teenage years, they’ll find out, ya3ny they’ll find out and the parents will never in a million years believe such thing unless they see it for themselves.
And even then they’ll have to go through 2 stages to develop a reaction. First as they walk in on their teenage son and see him trying to turn off the screen, they give him the “kda y’ Ahmed” look then shut the door before he sees how proud they are that their baby boy has finally grown up and started thinking about “those stuff”. And then when the incidence sinks in, they bring the boy because they believe that it’s time for “the talk” and a slap or two wouldn’t hurt 3shan el prestige! Now presuming the same situation but for the daughter! The stages disappear and there’s only one reaction “Traaaaaaaaaaa55555555!!!!!”
#2: 5am!
Even though there are no decent guys left in this world, fal naftared that there is a remaining bunch with what can be considered core values. The burning question here is, does every guy have to adopt the 007 attitude to be worthy of being called a complete man?! And if it’s agreed upon that whatever one has to do to gain the “essential” basic knowledge- thus avoiding being “5am”- is religiously and socially forbidden, then why the fuss? I personally think that to know as in to read and learn about whatever one needs to satisfy his curiosity is more than enough till his time comes, msh lazem 3mly ya3ny!
#3: 5ebra!
To truly learn about the problem of double standards in our society, you have to look through everything related to sex…
Let’s put aside the fact that God, the creator, didn’t discriminate between the genders in terms of sexual rights and adultery punishment. Humans on the other hand decided to make a law of their own where whenever a couple where caught in the act, the girl gets all the blame with a 3 years sentence and the guy who is treated as the victim who couldn’t help the massive temptation ends up spending a few months in the slammer!
That’s why the entire issue of a girl knowing something even a stereotypical info about sex comes out as a great shocker. Whether b2a she had a physical experience or theoretical info from a reliable source, doesn’t make much of a difference, for still she’ll be perceived as bg7a, 2lelet el 2dab and in some places fagra and should be put down!
#4: Only a manly need!
After all the bizarre codes we deliberately live by, this wouldn’t come as a surprise. Believing that sex is only the man’s right, portrays the woman as the obedient slave who never break the silence. And that’s a huge problem for it doesn’t only navigates the human nature but it also never fails to rip the woman off her rights to re-marry, ask for divorce when the husband is incompetent, etc…The severity of the situation can extend to dark places where sex becomes a luxury most women shouldn’t have and things will move on, bottled up as is, from one generation to the next till adultery cases multiply and eventually equaled with lying as a petty sin!
#5: 2sh3’eleh!
One of the most common jokes that when women get together absolutely have to mention about men, is how they have their ***** for brains! Denoting that sex is all that occupies their mind and hence if you want to keep your man, you better fulfill his physical appetite excessively or else he’ll be running down the streets searching for other women who can! How degrading is this for both males and females? Because if we’re going to take those beliefs for truce then welcome to the animal world where everything is allowed unless it smells like marked!
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: Make sure ,Islam does not need any sexual revolution nor does it need any facked up faking god damn devices
one word
C H E A T I N G
Cheating? How about all those rapes? And the victims? I once read that there would be 20000 rapes every year in Egypt but I don't know if this is accurate or near accurate. If you look at the statistics they do not tell the truth as only very few women report rapes. So you need to look behind those official figures.
The thing that needs to change is men's attitude but since it's probably not happening anytime soon I'm glad at least hymen operations are available for these poor girls. And mind you, as long as there has been a requirement for virgin brides there has also been ways to fake virginity. Dayas using razors, animal bloog...
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Ok, I'm actually very shocked to bring this article but it says that those 20000 rapes ARE REPORTED ones so imagine how big the true figures are! http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/854/eg11.htm
So many rape victims in ONE YEAR Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: and no ,youdo not have to fake your virginity to get married
say whatever you want
and welcome to the insults
I think that is already an insult for those who have been demanded virginity before marriage. Of course you do not HAVE TO fake virginity but what is the result? There was around 52 honor killings (that were registered as such but again, maybe it's only a tip of the ice berg as so many go missing permanently every year, never found) in year 1995, maybe few of those didn't bleed the first night Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Ok, as for this particular article, it seems to say both (rapes and sexual harassment) but I remember reading "rapes" so I googled a bit more - there are several articles that say 20000 rapes.
Anyway, it's not new that rapes are a serious problem in some countries. This can be even seen in Finland where a huge part of the rapes are done by immigrants from certain countries/areas.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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These womaen's whole futures are being discussed by others as if they are nothing.
This is when I am SO grateful to have total control of my own life, body and future.
Poor poor women
Their lives are ruined by the men who rape and impregnate them and then the men who decide what their futures should be I could never imagine being forced to give birth to an unwanted child conceived during such horiffic cicumstances
quote:Originally posted by Rahala: I am completely astonished in fact I will not be astonished anymore in this site!
cave man learnt a new word
quote:in fact the 20000 is a number for "cases involving rape and sexual harassment "
so not necessarily rape!
you are SICK
quote:and no ,youdo not have to fake your virginity to get married
no of course not, you have to fake it to stay alive after you're married.
quote:say whatever you want
yaayyy the great MALE from the cave gave us unworthy women permission to speak
quote:and welcome to the insults
classic coming from the one that throws most insults if you dont agree with him Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: This can be even seen in Finland where a huge part of the rapes are done by immigrants from certain countries/areas.
Now you just sound like Tibe.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
^Ah, maybe but what I wrote is true. Statistics are there. If problems can not be said or discussed how can things change? Look what happened in Sweden, now even they cannot establish a police station to Herrgården because it is way TOO restless for a police station - can you imagine, that's statement alone scares the **** out of me. Not to talk about Rosengård etc. Maybe they are happening because no one is allowed to talk about any problem that concerns immigrants. You can only say they are good for society. If no talk -> no action. It is simply wrong.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Why are statistics being done even to figure out who's raping?? Because certain people have an agenda. And oops turns out that immigrants are the pigs who are raping women - what a coincidence!! And it must be true cause the own citizens would never do something like that.
Men are men, some of them elect to rape, no matter where they coming from. We have such low lives here also in Germany who commit these kind of crimes and god forbid I'd never state that they are mostly foreigners because it wouldn't be true.
And lastly just because a woman reports a rape it doesn't mean this is true. I've heard stories of women - many times under the influence of alcohol - who performed sex with men they hardly knew and cried rape the next day. IMHO don't get yourself in such a situation that's all I can say.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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