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Author | Topic: A CHALLENGE for those who believe the Ancient Egyptians were White... |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() present just 1(one) Ancient Egyptian pharoah who was undeniably Caucasian. Should be easy, should it not? IP: Logged |
osirion Member Posts: 859 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Just for amusement: Cleopetra.
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walklikeanegyptian Member Posts: 491 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() undeniably caucasian means that ALL busts/depictions of this person show them to be clearly caucasian. here's a pharaoh who is undeniably NOT caucasian [This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 13 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: TO ME SHE LOOKS LIKE A LIGHT SKINNED BLACK PERSON. AND, I REQUESTED A PHAROAH! ONE OF NEFERTITI'S DAUGHTER'S... W/HER HUSBAND, AHKENATEN... HER AND FAMILY(NOT DEPICTED "WHITE" HERE) NEFERTITI... [This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).] [This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
walklikeanegyptian Member Posts: 491 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Akhenaten looks like Will Smith to me. and no, definitely not white. IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 5115 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() There is some debate about wheather Akenaten had a diease that difigured his apperance called Marofan. Evenybody is making a fuss about Nefertiti but it's very possible that she had some non-Egyptian ancestry. Her father was Ay from Akhmin in Upper Egypt,and her mother was Pey who possibly was a Syrian instead of a Egyptian. IP: Logged |
osirion Member Posts: 859 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Cleopetra was the last Pharoah and she was definately White. Like as pearly White. IP: Logged |
Serpent Wizdom Member Posts: 153 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Some say she was mixed. It all depends who you talk to. IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 5115 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() There is some suspcision of Cleopatra's grandmother being non-Ptolemaic. This does not ncessarily mean that her grandmother was necessarily Egyptian or Nubian. Possibly she could have been Syrian. In any case, the Ptolemaic pharaohs that ruled Egypt did not intermarry with local Egyptians. Most interbreed amongst Macedonian family lines. IP: Logged |
Ceelgabo_11 Member Posts: 128 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote:
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ausar Moderator Posts: 5115 |
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quote:
Greeks felt people all non-Greeks were barbarians and that non-Athenian citizens could not obtain citizenship,but still we also see foreigners that intermarried with Greeks throughout their civlization.
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Djehuti Member Posts: 1810 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Of course Cleopatra was of Macedonian/Greek ancestry. Many Afrocentrics talk about her grandmother but this was probably unlikely. We should stick to native rulers! IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Greeks and Macedonians are not what most would consider to be "pearly white". More of an olive skinned. Northern Europeans are the ones who on average meet such a decription. Cleopatra VII was accepted as a Pharaoh because she was very loyal to the Egyptian people and immersed herself in their indegenious culture and learned their language. Her Ptolmaic ancestors did not do this. As far as her appearance, as beautiful an illustration as it may be, I doubt she looked like this.
She more than likely looked like this bust of her. Even still as far as complexion is concerned I think the beautiful, olive-skinned actress Leonor Varela who is of French and Chilean descent was better representation of what Cleopatra really looked like when she played her in the 1999 remake than Elizabeth Taylor was in the original movie. Now as far as looking "Caucasian" there are several royals who could look that way. That doesn't mean they WERE caucasian. The Ancient Egyptians were biologically African and would have facial features that represent the indegnious people of the region I.E East Africans like your modern Somali, beja, Afar and Saeedi Upper Egyptian, who are their closest descendants. Certainly a Black African people. Check out this interesting link. [This message has been edited by Mansa Musa (edited 23 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
Ceelgabo_11 Member Posts: 128 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: They properly noticed the physical difference between people, but in Ancient time a single tribe or Nation like Egypt could have people who are very dark skinned and favor more of Sudanese physical and the same tribe could have people who are very light and favor of Hebrew/Arab or Berber physically and some who are inbetween the two extremes. The same thing in the middle east were you had people who were very dark and very light in a single tribe or sometimes single family. IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: I don't doubt the possiblity that there were lighter skinned Egyptians in Ancient times but it is important to remember that they almost unanimously chose medium brown to represent themselves in their most realistic forms of art. There many have been Syrian type migrants to the Nile region especially in Lower Egypt even in pre-dynastic times. Such people do not appear to be the majority or in any way numerous as far as the evidence shows. The Egyptians stressed the physical differences between themselves and their neighbors but to be Egyptian had far more to do with language, religion and culture than appearance. IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 5115 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Cleopatra was actually more intelligent than beautiful. Most historians are know admitting that she was not so beautiful as many made him out to be. She was intelligent and she was the only Macedonian/Greek that took the liberty to learn the ancient Egyptian language. So she was more brawn than beauty.
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beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() December, 70 BC or January, 69 BC–August 12?, 30 BC) was queen of ancient Egypt. She was the last member of the Macedonian Ptolemaic dynasty and hence the last Greek ruler of Egypt. (WHY SHE MAY HAVE BEEN WHITE!)Her father was Ptolemy XII Auletes. The name "Cleopatra" is Greek for "father's glory"; her full name, "Cleopatra Thea Philopator" means "the Goddess Cleopatra, Beloved of Her Father." Today she is probably the most famous of all of ancient Egypt's rulers, and is usually known as simply Cleopatra, all of her similarly-named predecessors having been largely forgotten. Cleopatra was never in fact the sole ruler of Egypt; she only co-ruled with her father, brother, brother-husband, and son. However, in all these cases, her co-rulers were king in title only, with her keeping the true authority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() CLEOPATRA'S FATHER... [IMAGE]http://www.livius.org/a/1/egypt/ptolemy_xii_auletes_louvre.jpg[/IMAGE] IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() CLEOPATRA'S FATHER... [This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
osirion Member Posts: 859 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote:
;-) [This message has been edited by osirion (edited 13 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
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multisphinx Member Posts: 400 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Yea one thing is to compare egyptian art to persian, greek, or roman, the ppl look tottally differant. The greeks roman, and persians look undeniably white and simular, but AE look nothing like them AT ALL!!!! IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: CONSIDERING THE EVIDENCE, MAY WE AGREE THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE NOT WHITE? IF NOT, PLEASE, PRESENT PROOF OR, BE QUIET! IP: Logged |
osirion Member Posts: 859 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Only your nutty Aryanists claim that Egypt was White. Most Anti-Afrocentrics attack the issue by going the other way. They claim that your so called Hamitic people are not Black. This means that all of the PN2 clade is not Black or if they are its due to admixture with Blacks. Essentially Ethiopians, Somalians, Mesai, Fulani, Tutsi, etc, are actually Caucasian people originally but later mixed with Blacks. As strange as that might seem that is their position. Of course you have the Hor type of person that simply thinks that the Ancient Egyptians are bascially no different than the modern day Egyptian. They watch movies and read books and see the selective photos of Egyptian Art and out of bias simply assumes the Egyptians are Caucasian people. You can show these types of people plenty of evidence to the contrary but they religiously believe in a Caucasian Egyptian society. This is primarily because they cannot accept a Black Ancient Egyptian society since that would undermine their rationality of discrimination against Blacks.
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Horemheb Member Posts: 3348 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Ausar, There is really no suspicion that her grandmother was non Greek. This is how we end up on lolipop lane on this board. We don't know who her grandmother was, one way or the other. That is different that thinking she might not be Greek. There is no evidence that she was not Greek. Since every other family member was Greek it would be a reasonable assumption that she was as well. IP: Logged |
yazid904 Member Posts: 229 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Cleopatra was Greek. A relative of Ptolomey and the dynasty was entrenched in Egypt. She was stated to be born in Egypt so therfore an Egpytian. Any other group that may be foreign (Nubia, etc) that has origins in Egypt is Eqgytian! IP: Logged |
Pax Dahomiensis Junior Member Posts: 2 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Ramses II anyone? IP: Logged |
Djehuti Member Posts: 1810 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Again one of the rare instances where I agree with the silly Hore. After the death of Alexander the Great, his empire was split between his generals. However, it should be known that Macedonians/Greeks were still highly ethnocentric and put this together with a ruling class elite and you can understand that they were a little more than meticulous about preserving a certain "blood-line." Although there is no doubt whatsoever that these Macedonian elites had many sexual relations with the native women of the territories they ruled, it is highly unlikely that they would allow the offspring of such a union become royal heirs! Which is why the Ptolemies had the custom of marrying cousins unless a 'legitimate' spouse was provided from Macedonia or Greece itself. [This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Even though the Cleopatra incident is a straw man promoted to discredit ANY claims to a Black African Egypt and I do agree with Hore, We are arguing about the plausibility of Cleopatra's Grandmother not being Greek but is it not just as possible that the Ptolmaic bloodline was "miscengated" with Egyptian or Nubian blood generations down the Ptolmaic line making them noticeably partially Black generations before Cleopatra or even her Grandmother came into the picture? I believe it is possible. But I don't believe it was likely. This link sums that situation up pretty well. As you and all of us who know the first thing about Greek xenophobia have said Djehuti the Ptolemies came from a culture where the world was split into Greeks
This behavior was highly unusual during Alexander's time period. It was one thing to take foriegn women as concubines, it was something entirely different to take them as wives bearing a multicultural heir (race wasn't really a working concept then culture was the main discrimination line) to the throne. Alexander's men were so opposed to his viewpoints that there were actually assassination attempts on his life, motivated by his love for foreign culture and his attempts to enforce it on his subjects.
Its a White Supremacist "history" page. They'll show you pics of "blonde" and "red" mummies. Images of Pharaohs taken at a side profile in hopes that it will look like a White nose enough to the average view. Pics of known foregeries. Images that are not even depicting Egyptians and pass it off as them and even images of execration customs such as King Tuts sandals and pass them off as depictions of racial imagery. All kinds of nonesense. There is even an refuting "Afrocentric lies" page where the author builds up straw men issues against what he calls "Black Supremacists" and attempts to knock them down in seemingly convincing but factually erroneous fashion. Here is another look at native Egyptian royals compared to Egyptian foreigners who at one point ruled Egypt after the time of the native Pharaohs. People typically see what they want to see in artwork even in statues. Which image do you think looks most like the original Pharaohs?: Old Kingdom Narmer Menes First Dynastic Pharaoh Middle Kingdom Amenemhat III: The 6th king of the 12th Dynasty
Akhnaten: "The Heretic King" 18th Dynasty Macedonian Occupation era Macedonian King Alexander the Great (European) Assyrian Occupation era Assyrian King Esarhaddon (Asiatic) 25th dynasty: Nubian Occupation era Nubian Pharaoh Shebitku (Other African) In my opinion the native rulers of Egypt look far more like the Nubian Pharaoh facially than they do the non-African rulers of Egypt. Ofcourse these are only 6 busts it is easy to be selective but there are plenty of other busts that can be compared. This isn't the most scientific way to approach the race debate but it is a clear refutation for those people who say the Egyptian images "Don't look Black". IP: Logged |
sonomod Member Posts: 2944 |
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osirion Member Posts: 859 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote:
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Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: I didn't say that you did. IP: Logged |
walklikeanegyptian Member Posts: 491 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: yes, actually i have. and Italian people do not look like that image i posted. IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote:
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 18 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Well here are two more pics of Ramses II: IP: Logged |
beanpiee Member Posts: 54 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() xxx [This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 19 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
Delamare Junior Member Posts: 1 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: We can argue over busts and pictures, from Ancient Egypt, which have been damaged and therefor impossible to tell whether they are Black or White,(certainly people whore whigs; soldiers rarely do, and not all of have been so damaged that we must question whether or not they have an afro) but microscopic analysis has been done on the remains of certain Egyptian mummies, a little while ago, I posted one of these studies and I will do so again so people can see them. A second point to be made, would be to look, at some Modern Egyptians who have largely segregated themselves from the rest of Egypt. I am refering to Coptic Christians. Many of whom, look very, very Caucasian, and claim a less mixed ancestry than the rest of Egypt. IP: Logged |
tdogg Member Posts: 145 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: What does Herodotus describe Ancient Egyptians as being black-skinned? Was he color blind?
quote: The History of Herodotus, Book II, 55-57 IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 3348 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() We have their mummies tdog, we know they were not black africans. As Dr Hawass recently noted, "Ancient Egyptians were North African caucasians." This issue has been settled for decades. IP: Logged |
tdogg Member Posts: 145 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Is that what you call evidence that Ancient Egyptians were Caucasian? Wow IP: Logged |
Ceelgabo_11 Member Posts: 128 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Horemb who do you think will measure closer to the Ancient Egyptians in terms of bone structure and skull measurement? IP: Logged |
Ceelgabo_11 Member Posts: 128 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() North African Caucosiods
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walklikeanegyptian Member Posts: 491 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() oh yeah Horemheb, if Zahi Hawass says that Egyptians are North African caucasians, it MUST be true ![]() IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 3348 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() You are correct walk, if he says it, its probably true. IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: You can state that load of B.S. 100 times and it still won't make any sense. You can state it 1000 more times and it still wouldn't. If Brace and Keita say that the Ancient Egyptians were biologically African then they were not Caucasiods. They did not descend from a Eurasian population anywhere near the Caucus region. Anthropologists will always have the final say on anthropology, archeologists will not. That statement is just as true as 2+2=4. IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 3348 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Anthropologists do not say Egyptians were black Africans, they never have said that. Mansa , if you are an American black you have zero connection to ancient Egypt. You are being made a fool by the afrocentrics. IP: Logged |
walklikeanegyptian Member Posts: 491 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: i don't know if you are a smartass or just stupid, but i was being SARCASTIC [This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 20 October 2005).] IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() quote: Modern Anthropologists do not recognize racial terms. Peer-reviewed anthropological articles have concluded that the Ancient Egyptians were a tropical African people. A tropically adapted African = Black African That's just the way it is. You can whine about it all you want and make a fool of yourself it will do you no good. Your contention that being an African-American means you have "zero connection" to Ancient Egypt is false, and another devisive Eurocentric ploy. If by "connection" you mean direct undeviated genetic descent than you'd certainly be right and I have never argued in favor of such a point. But by the objective definition of connection you are wrong. I have "connections" to Ancient Greece. One such connection is the fact that my name is Greek. That right there is a connection. If I were to name my child Nefertari or Horus they would be an African-American with a connection to Ancient Egypt. African-American culture is derived from African culture which is derived from Ancient African cultures of which Ancient Egypt is deeply rooted. So in that sense Ancient Egypt is a part of my cultural heritage because it is a civilization who's culture is rooted in the same culture that I inherited. There is evidence for post-dynastic Egyptian migration into other parts of Africa that many African-Americans could be directly descended from, myself included. There is also the matter of full genealogy which really trivializes the subject of direct descent because everyone on this forum could very well be descended from Ramses II (the man had like 100 kids) giving us all a genetic connection, however slight, to Ancient Egypt or any civilization for that matter. Example of the wildness of full genealogy You can whine and rant about the "Afrocentric Black radical agenda" and the "people being played as fools" all you want. You're sad song and dance is no match for the evidence. IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 3348 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Its so far over your head you will never get it. IP: Logged |
Mansa Musa Member Posts: 298 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() There is nothing to get. I'm not interested in your political mudslingling, only history, all aspects of it. It is unfortunate that race overshadows discussions on Egypt, but if we are going to talk about it we need to be objective in our observations. This it seems is a hopeless endeavor with you. Your tactic is just like nearly all other cliche eurocentrist opponents to Egypt. You deny that it is "Black African" by pretending that you don't know what is considered to be Black. If we played the opposite hand and forced you to talk about who is and was Black and why rather than who wasn't you'd simply trip over your deceit. This is evidenced by your absurd comment to Osirion by a picture of Tut "not looking that Black". I encountered an idiot on another forum who said the same thing and then even said the same thing about the brown-skinned braid-haired Egyptian women. He was dumber than you though in that while you concede that the hair "looks African" but could be a wig when I posted a pic of a girl with similarly braided hair he went off on a tangent about how the woman was of mixed race I'm not going to waste anymore long posts on you Horemheb you have proven to be a clown who deserves nothing but ridicule. I try to be polite and take people seriously but you have lost the right to be taken seriously on this board and probably lost it a very long time ago. IP: Logged |
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