posted 10 September 2005 07:38 AM            

quote:

---

"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)

---

Hence, Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians than with Sub-Saharans, and are not part of any "African cluster".

Now let's recall what he said in his e-mail reply to Charlie Bass, in answer to the question of whether "elongated" morphology indicates Eurasian admixture:

quote:

---

"As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures and much the result of in situ circumstances. The elongation of the nose is clearly a climate-induced phenomenon and takes a long time to manifest itself. The same thing is true for the reduction in tooth size which markedly distinguishes those people form the Niger-Congo people." (C. L. Brace, private correspondence)

---

So after establishing that Horn people resemble Europeans and Middle Easterners (Caucasoids), he rejects the idea that they've acquired their appearance through admixture from these groups, maintaining instead that "elongated" morphology is native to East Africa. He then ends by reconfirming the distinctiveness of Horn people from Niger-Congo people (Negroids).

His inescapable conclusion is therefore that indigenous East Africans resemble Caucasoids and not Negroids.

Of course, that's exactly what I've been saying all these months. It's what Dienekes has been saying all along. It's what Coon and other "outdated" anthropologists were observing when they postulated a Mediterranean presence in East Africa. And now, all have been vindicated by a modern source whom the Afronuts themselves trust and reference.

posted 10 September 2005 09:23 AM            

And indigenous West Africans resembling South East Asian mogoloids and not negroids.

Looks like the negroid pool is fast becoming an empty set.

So "negroids" are like Plato's ideal types existing in some far off world of the forms but not in reality.

posted 10 September 2005 09:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
His inescapable conclusion is therefore that indigenous East Africans resemble Caucasoids and not Negroids.

[/B]

---

Shouldn't it be, so-called Caucasoids resemble so-called Negroid since Negroids were first?

Also, my understanding is Caucasoid and Negroid describes features of a human, not the human’s race. Being Caucasoid and being “White” is not synonymous. An African or person of African ancestry can have Caucasoid features, but that doesn’t make him or her part of the “White race”.

What is your point? I haven’t followed the history of your argument so please enlighten me and others as to what you’re trying to prove. Are you saying East Africans and other Africans are from completely different “races”? Are you saying East Africans are a dark-skinned “White race”? What are you trying to prove here?

posted 11 September 2005 12:01 AM            

Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race. Socially speaking these people are Black regardles of facial features.

posted 12 September 2005 11:36 AM            

They don't look like typical Somalis at all.

posted 12 September 2005 12:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race.!

---

NO idiot they hate AMERICANS that a big difference. Most people in the thirth world hate Americans! dumbfuck

Somalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!

MUSA’S DREAM of going to America may soon become reality. He and all the other passengers in the eight-bus convoy are Somali Bantus, a long-persecuted people from one of the world’s most ruined countries. Two centuries ago their ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia. After slavery was gradually abolished in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bantus remained pariahs—even though they, like most Somalis, are Muslims. Their children faced discrimination in Somali schools. Some shop owners refused to serve them. Intermarriage was not accepted. When civil war between rival Somali clans broke out in 1991, thousands of Bantus fled on foot to Kenya, where they have since lived in the grim poverty of refugee camps.

posted 12 September 2005 12:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leba:
Stop posting that picture you damn monkeys.

They don't look like typical Somalis at all.

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 12 September 2005).]

---

The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.

posted 12 September 2005 12:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.

---

reality of Somalia? Have you ever been in Somalia? NO i have you fag. Most people there are nice and friendly and dont act crazy like in that picture so that doesnt reflect reality in anyway.

posted 12 September 2005 12:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
The inescapeable reality of what Somalia is what burns your soul.

---

Yep. His chilish hate tantrum - quite amusing actually - was because the picture shattered his silly illusions.

These fools post pictures of Australian Lesbians, Filipina mail order brides, etc.. and try to convince themselves that Somalia is not 'really' Black Africa.

They spam a million pictures to that effect.

It only takes 1 picture to force them to face reality, and then the hysteria and tears, threats and name calling.

posted 12 September 2005 12:52 PM            

I didn't post those pictures. Euro guy did, That pictures of Osiron is humiliating and doesnt represent how Somalis act and look like in anyway. That's like picking out a picture of black Americans looting and saying all of them act like that and look like that.

posted 12 September 2005 01:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leba:
That's like picking out a picture of black Americans looting and saying all of them act like that and look like that.

---

Take Osirion's comments up with him.

Your own conduct has always been uniformly vile and reprehensible.

By your own admission they are rooted in hatred [self hate really].

You are crying the crocodile tears of someone who can dish it out, but not take it.

posted 12 September 2005 03:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Basically it has been explained over and over again that bone morphology and phenotype does not represent race. Race is a sociopolitical construct.

Basically these people hate White people and certainly do not consider themselves a part of their race. Socially speaking these people are Black regardles of facial features.

You can take your pseudo-science of facial classification of race and shove it!

---

osirion...it would probably be a diff.. story..if the atlantic slab=ve trade had turned out like that...maybe the margenilization of the what 13% of afro-american wouldnt exist???? he far-fetch...but u never know...

No AMERICAN BASES ARE STATIONED IN ANY SOMALI CITIES TODAY...WAR HAS ENDED...but CHEVRON, SHELL, CONCO....ARE PISSED FOR THAT...

posted 12 September 2005 07:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandon19:
EVIL EURO UR IN IDOIT THOSE PEOPLE LOOKING NOTHING LIKE CAUCASIONS. THEY LOOK MORE BLACKER THEN BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND MOST OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS. STOP TRYING TO SPLIT BLACK PEOPLE UP.

---

LOL...Bandon ur so ignorant ...since you dont know somalis...I AM 1...

The city is mogdisho......ethnic groups..somalis..and non ethnic... its obvious in the pic...

posted 16 September 2005 10:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

quote:

"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)

Hence, Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians than with Sub-Saharans, and are not part of any "African cluster".

---

Thought Writes:

1) The issue both YOU and BRACE seem to be discussing is phenotype.

2) Brace is discussing cranio-facial phenotype specially.

3) You have extrapolated from his SPECIFIC phenotypic evaluation of cranio-facial regions in an attempt to prove that OVERALL phenotypic affinity is greatest
between Eurasians and Somalis.

4) Your comparison of Eurasia to Sub-Saharan Africa and Somali is inappropriate. The fact that Andaman Islanders are Eurasians proves this point well.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

He then ends by reconfirming the distinctiveness of Horn people from Niger-Congo people (Negroids).

---

Thought Writes:

posted 16 September 2005 11:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leba:
NO idiot they hate AMERICANS that a big difference. Most people in the thirth world hate Americans! dumbfuck

Somalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!

MUSA’S DREAM of going to America may soon become reality. He and all the other passengers in the eight-bus convoy are Somali Bantus, a long-persecuted people from one of the world’s most ruined countries. Two centuries ago their ancestors were taken from their homes in Mozambique, Tanzania and Malawi, and sold as slaves in Somalia. After slavery was gradually abolished in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bantus remained pariahs—even though they, like most Somalis, are Muslims. [b]Their children faced discrimination in Somali schools. Some shop owners refused to serve them. Intermarriage was not accepted. When civil war between rival Somali clans broke out in 1991, thousands of Bantus fled on foot to Kenya, where they have since lived in the grim poverty of refugee camps.

source http://www.somalibantu.com/Refugee1.htm [/B]

---

"Somalis hate Congoid/Black/Negroid people also!"

posted 16 September 2005 11:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

When we expand the study of affinities beyond phenotype we discover that while Horn of Africans and West Africans BOTH SHARE in the PN2 clade

---

Thought Writes:

On the maternal side the ancestors of the E3b carrying males that migrated from Black Africa to southern Europe share a recent common lineage with West Africans as well.

Thought Posts:

The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape
Salas et al.
2002

"L2a, which we suggest may have become prevalent somewhere in north Central Africa, spreading BOTH east and west along the Sahel belt ~20,000 years ago at the peak of the LGM..."

posted 17 September 2005 12:43 AM            

quote:

---

Greeks also carry the Benin Sickle Cell Variant.

---

The excuses made for this are also amusing because like all "Erroneous" arguments, they are self defeating.

The argument is made that Benin haplotype spread from West Africa to Europe because sickle cell morphology is selected-for in southern Europe due to the precense of malaria.

Perhaps.

But this is tantamount to admission that European morphology has been affected by West African genes which then expand under selective pressure - meaning people who have these African genes survive and reproduce and those who don't - die.

This does not help the case for southern European racial purity one bit. Quite the contrary.

And it gets "worse".

Skin color, like sickle cell is also a genetically effected morphology.

Given an African admixed population in Southern Europe carrying darker skin tones and sickle cell morphologies, by what mechanism of biology would only the one be selected for, and not the other?

How can you admit sickle cell morphology comes into S. Europe from Africa and expands due to selective pressure, and then deny the possibility that the same may be true of Olive skin tone?

The point is - using selective pressure as an "excuse" for the precense of an African gene in European populations makes no sense.

By definition virtually any gene effecting morphology is under selective pressure.

The only one's that aren't, are junk gene mutations - like Y chromosome markers, but then, by definition they don't 'do anything' and so are not directly responsible for morphology - differences between peoples.

It's a subtle point and I don't expect Erroneous to follow it, but everyone else will.

posted 17 September 2005 12:55 AM            

DistortingEuro quotes from, but does not link to the article, precisely because he does not want it read, nor the context understood.

That would interfere with his distorting antics.

posted 17 September 2005 06:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
4) Your comparison of Eurasia to Sub-Saharan Africa and Somali is inappropriate. The fact that Andaman Islanders are Eurasians proves this point well.

---

Straw man. Brace is not comparing Somalis to just any Eurasians, but specifically to Europeans and Middle Easterners.

quote:

---

Mediterranean populations like Greeks have unique phenotypic features such as olive skin, curly hair, dark eyes and hair when compared to other Eurasians such as Swedes or the Irish. [...] the Greeks have very low frequencies of the European specific lineages such as Hg I and Hg R1b.

---

Paleolithic Northern Europeans:

posted 17 September 2005 06:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Given an African admixed population in Southern Europe carrying darker skin tones and sickle cell morphologies, by what mechanism of biology would only the one be selected for, and not the other?

---

You repeat your bullsh*t like a broken record because you have no evidence or answers for anything. What a dumb, desperate nigger you are -- a lowly West African slave who spends every waking moment looking for ways to steal white people's glory, just so you don't have to confront your own inferiority. I pity you.

"The overall Hb S gene frequency in Sicily is 2%. [...] At present there are in Sicily about 400 patients with sickle cell disease who cannot be distinguished from other Sicilian subjects; we have observed three blond, blue-eyed patients (fig.3)."

http://www.sicklecellsociety.org/information/resrep/res14.htm

"Skin color is one of the most conspicuous ways in which humans vary and has been widely used to define human races. Here we present new evidence indicating that variations in skin color are adaptive, and are related to the regulation of ultraviolet (UV) radiation penetration.... Skin coloration in humans is adaptive and labile. Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution. Because of this, skin coloration is of no value in determining phylogenetic relationships among modern human groups." (N. Jablonski and G. Chaplin, J Hum Evol, 2000)

The untanned skin of Southern Europeans doesn't get darker than #18 on this chart:

quote:

---

By definition virtually any gene effecting morphology is under selective pressure.

The only one's that aren't, are junk gene mutations - like Y chromosome markers

---

Which is why geneticists use junk DNA to make inferences about ancestry and race, and not useless blood groups.

quote:

---

By the way, the premise of this thread is based upon this article, http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/anthro.htm , which examins fallacies in anthropology all of which Erroneous E is a prime example of.

---

Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.

quote:

---

DistortingEuro quotes from, but does not link to the article, precisely because he does not want it read, nor the context understood.

---

Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.

quote:

---

Australian Lesbian Somali's,

---

Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.

quote:

---

Y chromosome bearing females,

---

Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.

quote:

---

Fillipina Ethiopians,

---

Translation: You have no answer for Brace's conclusion that indigenous East Africans are Caucasoid-like.

posted 17 September 2005 08:45 AM            

Brace own current comments clear the stench from Eurroneous E's dogbreath:

As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures. I have no Sahel samples in my data base. I do not even have Ethiopians. I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as the Somali and Nubians in a kind of Northeast African group. Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business

Also...

East Africans have been Black for 10's of thousands of years

And

Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless

The scholars agree and have debunked EuroMutt's racist-distortions.

Erroneous, try again, but first have a breath mint. As is, you're a liar, and your breath stinks.

posted 17 September 2005 09:55 AM            

First you state:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Brace's own description of his craniometric plot supports my interpretation of the data -- namely that Somalis show greater affinities with Eurasians...

---

Thought Writes:

Then when I check you on the "Eurasian" comment you change-up and state:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Brace is not comparing Somalis to just any Eurasians, but specifically to Europeans and Middle Easterners.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 17 September 2005 05:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Guys you know the deal. When Stupid-Euro says "Eurasians", he means Europeans and Middle-Easterners, but seems to have forgotten about some people in southern India and the Andamanese and the Pacific Islanders and Australians.

---

posted 18 September 2005 07:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Sorry Erroneous, making up fantasy quotes, and repeating them out of insane frustration just adds to your humiliation.

---

TRANSLATION:

Making up fantasy quotes = Providing hard evidence

Repeating them out of insane frustration = Posting them out of rational satisfaction

Humiliation = Victory

quote:

---

Brace own current comments clear the stench from Eurroneous E's dogbreath:

As I see it, the appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures. I have no Sahel samples in my data base. I do not even have Ethiopians. I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as the Somali and Nubians in a kind of Northeast African group. Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business

Also...

East Africans have been Black for 10's of thousands of years

And

Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless

---

And...

"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)

posted 18 September 2005 09:24 AM            

* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.

* I have no Sahel samples in my data base.

* I do not even have Ethiopians.

* I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.

* Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.

* East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.

* East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.

* Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.

quote:

---

Fake Euro writes:
Making up fantasy quotes = Providing hard evidence

---

Incorrect.

Making up fantasy quotes = making a complete fool of yourself.

Again.....

posted 18 September 2005 09:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:

Even then "Middle Easterners" doesn't help him, since "Negritos" live in that region to, and various populations of these regions also have "recent" sub-Saharan origins.

---

^^

posted 18 September 2005 12:09 PM            

It's time for the stupid mutt to come up with tactics to his insane arguments because that old flawed map and old flawed sources (or new accurate but distorted citings of sources) just aren't working for him!

posted 19 September 2005 07:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drowning Ape:
* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.

---

Exactly. Their European-like appearance is native to East Africa.

quote:

---

* I have no Sahel samples in my data base.

---

Irrelevant.

quote:

---

* I do not even have Ethiopians.

---

Irrelevant.

quote:

---

* I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.

---

Expectation is not evidence.

quote:

---

* Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.

---

Hierneaux's "East Africans" are really Bantus.

quote:

---

* East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.

---

"Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution. Because of this, skin coloration is of no value in determining phylogenetic relationships among modern human groups." (Jablonski, 2000)

quote:

---

* East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.

---

Ditto.

quote:

---

* Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.

---

Opinion, not fact, as many scientists use racial terminology. Also, doesn't change the fact that Somalis resemble Europeans more than they do Sub-Saharan Africans.

posted 19 September 2005 07:52 AM            

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words::
* The appearances of the Upper Nile Valley and Horn people has little if anything to do with admixtures.

---

quote:

---

Deluded Euro writes:
Their European-like appearance

---

Wrong, since east Africans don't look like Europeans - which is exactly why you resort to googling up Australian Lesbians and Filipina mail order brides like the desparate, deluded, dirty, distorting, dunce you are.

quote:

---

Backtracking Euro writes: is native to East Africa

---

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:I have no Sahel samples in my data base.

---

quote:

---

DumbEuro writes: Irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:I do not even have Ethiopians.

---

quote:

---

EuroLoser writes: irrelevant

---

And Desparate Euro can't foist his paranoid-self delusion of: Vindicated by Brace words, by ignoring Brace words because he doesn't like them. Loser.

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:I would expect people like the Fulani to fall into the same general category as - the Somali and Nubians.

---

quote:

---

InsipidEuro writes: Expectation is not evidence.

---

The evidence Brace skull map provides is simply that:

* Somali sub-saharans' nose and skull shape clusters with Nubians.

* His limited selection of other Sub-saharan Africans cluster with Australians and Melanesians.

* Neolithic Greeks are intermediate, and cluster closer to Nubians than they do with modern NorthWest Europeans.

None of which vindicates you, in any way, self delusions notwithstanding.

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans is a fine observation by a first-rate student of the business.

---

quote:

---

Stupid Euro writes: Hierneaux's "East Africans" are really Bantus.

---

Wrong, Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans are Cushites and Nilo Saharans.

His elongated West Africans are NigerCongo and Berber speakers.

His elongated Central and Southern Africans are Bantu speakers.

As shown...

Keep trying Dumb Euro, we know you're stupid and don't expect you to catch on too quick.

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:East Africans in question include some of the blackest people on Earth.

---

quote:

---

Irrelevant Euro writes: "Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution.(Jablonski, 2000)

---

That's true. It means that Native East Africans who've always lived in Africa, are Black and always have been. As Jablonski herself notes: dark skin is the original condition of humans. Early Africans would have had to have been very dark skinned.

So Jablonksi also rejects you. This means EuroLoser will soon have to start another paranoid self-deluding thread, and go into deep denial by distorting her views as well.

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words:East Africans have been equatorial [Black] for many 10's of thousands of years.

---

quote:

---

Euro in Denial writes: Ditto.

---

You had better ditto because you sure can't deny.

quote:

---

CL Brace' own words: Terms like CaucaZoid, are worse than useless.

---

quote:

---

Bitter Euro whines: Opinion, not fact

---

Again...CL Brace' own words, so choke on them.

Even worse [for you], is that they are rooted in fact: caucaZoid - a term for a race group, no longer in scientifice use - American Heritage Dictionary [2005]

It appears you spend and awful lot of energy running away from Brace own words, for someone claiming to be vindicated by them.

Correcting the thread TOPIC:

Deluded Euro: Destroyed, by Brace's own words:

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
Euro Trash your just pathtic....look at you.

---

posted 20 September 2005 02:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL Stupid-Euro messed himself up again as usual!!

This thread should be called "Evil-Euro is Destroyed by Brace's Words"

---

Individuals with Paranoid Personality Disorder experience a polarity in their self-image; even though their behavior may be grandiose, they are vulnerable to shame and will alternate between the impotent, despised self image and the vindicated self.

Their defenses are activated in the service of warding off shame and humiliation, they are vengeful and pursue conflict with great tenacity, never seeming to tire in their quest for self-vindication.

posted 20 September 2005 06:24 AM            

On a different board i also thought that Ethiopians are caucasoid. Now i know they are not and don't want anything to do with caucasoids.

These terms (caucasoid and negroid) are not used in academia.

posted 20 September 2005 06:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Wrong, since east Africans don't look like Europeans

---

Not the recent Bantu and Negroid ones. But the predominantly indigenous ones certainly do:

quote:

---

Correct, contradicting your lie attributing E. African looks to mixture with fantasy "Euro-zoids" of East Africa.

---

Nope. Confirming my previous statement that native East Africans are more Caucasoid than Negroid.

quote:

---

Brace can't assess East Africans, if he doesn't have Ethiopians in his database

---

He has Somalis in his database. Somalis are East Africans. Therefore, he can (and does) assess East Africans. Moreover, he assesses the most important East Africans, because it was in Somalia that E3b originated.

quote:

---

* Somali sub-saharans' nose and skull shape clusters with Nubians.

---

Incorrect. Somalis cluster with Europeans, as Brace's own words reveal:

"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)

quote:

---

* His limited selection of other Sub-saharan Africans cluster with Australians and Melanesians.

---

Irrelevant to the clustering of Somalis with Europeans.

quote:

---

* Neolithic Greeks are intermediate, and cluster closer to Nubians than they do with modern NorthWest Europeans.

---

Incorrect. Greeks cluster with Central European Swiss and other Caucasoids. It's the Nubians who are in fact intermediate between Sub-Saharan Africans and Europeans.

quote:

---

The evidence Brace skull map provides is simply that:

---

Not only did you completely misinterpret Brace's plot in your three points above, but you forgot these two important findings:

* E3b-carrying North Africans cluster with Europeans and not Africans.

* Pre-Dynastic and Dynastic Egyptians cluster with Europeans and not Africans.

quote:

---

Wrong, Hiernaux's Elongated East Africans are Cushites and Nilo Saharans.

---

Not the Tutsi. They're E3a-carrying Bantu Negroids. And you haven't provided any evidence that they (or the Fulani) cluster craniometrically with East Africans rather than Sub-Saharan Africans.

quote:

---

That's true. It means that Native East Africans who've always lived in Africa, are Black and always have been.

---

"Skin pigmentation levels have changed more than once in human evolution." (Jablonski, 2000)

^^ The dumb ape thinks that 'change' means 'stay the same'.

quote:

---

Even worse [for you], is that they are rooted in fact: caucaZoid - a term for a race group, no longer in scientifice use - American Heritage Dictionary [2005]

---

posted 20 September 2005 09:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Not the recent Bantu and Negroid ones. But the predominantly indigenous ones certainly do:

---

Stupid-Euro, can you please tell us why your pictures of Somalis are so few and limited. I have Somali friends and have been to their community and non of them look like that! The man with the white hat is a Banadir (Yemeni descent) and is a small minority as far as the other man who I believe is the prime minister, I don't know much about him but he also looks atypical.

Why is it when I do a google image search of Somalis that I get alot of more pictures than those SAME two you keep posting?

There are Somalis who post here too, and I suggest you stop using them and their people as pawns in your propaganda of lies!

posted 20 September 2005 12:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Stupid-Euro, can you please tell us why your pictures of Somalis are so few and limited. I have Somali friends and have been to their community and non of them look like that! The man with the white hat is a Banadir (Yemeni descent) and is a small minority as far as the other man who I believe is the prime minister, I don't know much about him but he also looks atypical.

Why is it when I do a google image search of Somalis that I get alot of more pictures than those SAME two you keep posting?

There are Somalis who post here too, and I suggest you stop using them and their people as pawns in your propaganda of lies!

---

Abdullahi Yusuf looks like a typical Somali, while the guy whome you are calling bandir to me looks like typical light skin Somali, matter fact in single Somali family you will find brothers and sisters who are pitch black, merim and yellow,and all of them have the same parents...

Same clan but different shades..

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 20 September 2005).]

posted 20 September 2005 01:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11:
Abdullahi Yusuf looks like a typical Somali, while the guy whome you are calling bandir to me looks like typical light skin Somali, matter fact in single Somali family you will find brothers and sisters who are pitch black, merim and yellow,and all of them have the same parents...

Same clan but different shades..

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I assume he is Banadir by the white hat he is wearing, plus a Somali on this board said so. He also said something about Abdullahi Yusuf.

But at least you show more pictures of your people! stupid-euro likes to show only a couple and lie. "caucasoid" Somalis my a**!

posted 20 September 2005 03:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[B]It is a well known fact (at least well known to everyone but dumb-mutt Euro) that that old 'craniofacial map' fails to represent the diversity of Eurasians and let alone Africans! Scholars like Michael Cricheton have shown that the so-called "Eurasian-like" Somalis and Nubians cluster closer to groups in Kenya and Tanzania.

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posted 20 September 2005 04:19 PM            

(Poundbury is in Britain)

All three ancient Egyptian samples (Kharga, el-Hesa, Lisht) and some Nubian samples (X-group, Meroitic, Christian) cluster with Arabs and Berbers

Kenyans and Tanzanians cluster w/ sub-Saharans

"Thus, it is apparent that populations affiliated with the two geographic regions are not closely related to each other."
JD Irish, Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 102:455-467, 1997.

"...a shared, mass-reduced dental pattern is present not only throughout post-Pleistocene North Africa, but also Europe."

J.D. Irish, Homo, 49:138-155, 1998

posted 20 September 2005 04:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Salpierre:
Actually Brace did include a sample from Tanzania, which he included among the sub-Saharan Africans. The Sub-Saharan samples were pooled together because his earlier research (which he cites) showed them to be very similar.

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But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.

A well designed study should capture that diversity.

Brace does not show sub-saharan diversity, but rather a contrived polarity, which is a predictable by-product of his sampling strategy.

He has no Ethiopians. Ethiopia alone has 60 major ethnic groups, some difficult to distinguish craniometrically from Somali.....

Nilo-saharans of Ethiopia:

Somali Football team:

Others are similar in head shape to West Africans...dozens more are 'in between' the elongated and broadheaded archtypes.

India, with a billion people and 100's of ethnic groups occupies one point on Brace map.

Sub-sahara occupies one point.

Australia and Melanesa - one point.

In violent contrast, European groups are distinguished by ethnicity and archeology and so spread clinially over a distance that is as great as the distance between Somali and other sub-saharans, with the clines serving to obfuscate that fact.

Sub saharans somehow end up grouping with genetically unrelated Australian Aborigines.

Somali are closer to Aborigines than they are to Brace 'sub-saharans'.

Somali crania look no more like Australian Aborigines than they do like Europeans, but they do resemble any number of other sub-saharan Africans to whom they are also biologically related.

So Brace approach lacked objectivity and balance and was rightly and fairly criticized in peer review by Dr. Shomarka Keita and others.

Where Brace deserves credit is for aknowledging the limitations of his early, pre E3b, and frankly flawed work, and putting it into proper context - something the notorious and discredited Carleton Coon [who claimed the Tutsi came from Arabia] could never do.

It takes humility and honesty to do that.

And I respect Brace more for it.

posted 20 September 2005 04:53 PM            

A more recent study from JD Irish:

J Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44.
Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples.

Previous research by the first author revealed that, relative to other modern peoples, sub-Saharan Africans exhibit the highest frequencies of ancestral (or plesiomorphic) dental traits and, thus, appear to be least derived dentally from an ancestral hominin state. Both methods yielded similar results, which support the previous findings; that is, of all modern human samples, sub-Saharan Africans again exhibit the closest phenetic similarity to various African Plio-Pleistocene hominins -through their shared prevalence of morphologically complex crown and root traits. The fact that sub-Saharan Africans express these apparently plesiomorphic characters, along with additional information on their affinity to other modern populations, evident intra-population heterogeneity, and a world-wide dental cline emanating from the sub-continent, provides further evidence that is consistent with an African origin model.

A study from a Japanese bioanthropologist:
Hanihara T. 1996

Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups.

Department of Anatomy, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.

Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World.

The major findings are as follows:

1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians.

2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans.

3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest.

4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand.

5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern.

This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree.

S.O.Y. Keita and A. J. Boyce (Institute of Biological Anthropology, Oxford University)
2002

Badarian crania were studied with European and African series from the Howells’ database, using generalized distances and cluster analyses (neighbour joining and UPGMA algorithms). Greater affinity is found with the African series.

The Badarian crania have a modal metric phenotype that is clearly 'southern'; most classify into the Kerma (Nubian), Gaboon, and Kenyan groups NO Badarian cranium in any analysis classified into the European series.

posted 20 September 2005 05:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.

A well designed study should capture that diversity.

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Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure"
Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636

Estimates of genetic diversity in major geographic regions are frequently made by pooling all individuals into regional aggregates. This method can potentially bias results if there are differences in population substructure within regions, since increased variation among local populations could inflate regional diversity. A preferred method of estimating regional diversity is to compute the mean diversity within local populations. Both methods are applied to a global sample of craniometric data consisting of 57 measurements taken on 1734 crania from 18 local populations in six geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, East Asia, Australasia, Polynesia, and the Americas. Each region is represented by three local populations.

Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies.

posted 20 September 2005 05:46 PM            

quote:

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A more recent study from JD Irish:

J Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44.
Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples.

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So his research supports the out-of-Africa model for populating the world. What's your point?

quote:

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A study from a Japanese bioanthropologist:
Hanihara T. 1996

Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups.

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Interesting you bring up Hanihara. I don't remember exactly but I think his "early West Asians" were very old, possibly tens of thousands of years, before races as we know them came into being. And any resemblance to Africans wasn't that close. But I'm surprised you mention Hanihara, since his 2003 study grouped Egyptians and Nubians with Europeans. Look at the plots at the bottom.

[hr]

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2003 Jul;121(3):241-51.
Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits.
Hanihara T, Ishida H, Dodo Y.

"In the present study, the frequency distributions of 20 discrete cranial traits in 70 major human populations from around the world were analyzed. The principal-coordinate and neighbor-joining analyses of Smith's mean measure of divergence (MMD), based on trait frequencies, indicate that 1) the clustering pattern is similar to those based on classic genetic markers, DNA polymorphisms, and craniometrics; 2) significant interregional separation and intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans; 3) clinal relationships exist among regional groups; 4) intraregional discontinuity exists in some populations inhabiting peripheral or isolated areas."

East Asians
1. Japanese (Tokyo and Tohoku regions)
2. Hokkaido Ainu (Recent Ainu people)
3. Sakhalin in Ainu (Southern Sakhalin)
4. North Chinese (Mainly from Liaoning Prefecture)
Southeast Asians
5. Myanmar (Recent Burmese)
6. Mainland SE Asians (Thai, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Malay)
7. Javanese (Greater Sunda islands)
8. Philippines (Non-Negrito Filipinos)
9. Borneans (Mainly land Dayaks)
10. Lesser Sunda (Timor, Bali, Sumbawa, Flores, and Celebes Islands)
11. Andamanese/Nicobarese (Andaman Negritos and Nicobar Islands)
Northeast Asians
12. Mongolians (Ulan Bator and other regions)
13. Buryats (From Northeast Siberia)
14. Amur Basin (Ulchs, Nanaians, Negidals, Nivkhs, and Orochs)
15. Neolithic Baikalians (From around Lake Baikal)
16. Yakuts (From Northeast Siberia)
Arctic
17. Ekvens (Iron-Age people from Ekven site, Chukot Peninsula)
18. Chukchis (From Arctic region of Northeast Siberia)
19. Aleuts (Mainly from Unalaska Island)
20. Asian Eskimos (From Arctic region of Northeast Siberia)
21. Greenland Eskimos (West Coast of Greenland)
New World
22. Northwest Coast (Northwest Coast of Canada)
23. Northwest America (Plateau, Great Basin, California, and Southwest Cultural areas)
24. Northeast America (Great Plains, Northeast, and Southeast Cultural areas)
25. Central America (Mexico, Colombia, Ecuador, Carib, Venezuela, and Guyana)
26. Peruvians (Cerro del Oro, Huacho, Pisagua, etc.)
27. Fuegians/Patagonians (Terra del Fuego and Patagonia region)
Micronesians
28. Mariana (Guam, Saipan, and Tinian)
Polynesians
29. Hawaii (Mainly from Oahu Island)
30. Easter (Easter Islanders)
31. Marquesas (Mainly from Uahuka Island)
32. Maori (New Zealand)
33. Moriori (Chatham Islands)
Melanesians
34. Papua New Guinea (Purari River delta, Fly River delta, Sepik River Delta, etc.)
35. Torres Strait (Island of Torres Strait)
36. North Melanesians (New Ireland, New Britain, Solomon, and Santa Cruz)
37. South Melanesians (Loyalty, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and Fiji)
Australians
38. East Australians (New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria)
39. South/West Australians (South Australia and Western Australia)
Tibet/Nepal/Northeast India
40. Tibetans/Nepalese (Tibetan Soldiers , lowland of Nepal)
41. Assam/Sikkim (Darjeeling, Assam, and Sikkim districts)
South Asians
42. Northeast India (Bengal and Bihar districts)
43. South India (Madras, Tamil Natu, Malabar Coast, and Karnataka)
44. Northwest India (Punjab and Kashmir districts)
Central Asians
45. Tagars (Iron-Age Tagar culture)
46. Kazakhs (From Central Asia, Kazakh)
Europeans
47. Russians (Recent Russians)
48. Greece (Ancient and recent Greece)
49. Eastern Europeans (Slav group: Poland, Czecho, Hergegovina, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia)
50. Italy (Recent Italians)
51. Finland/Ural (Including a few samples of Ural-language people)
52. Scandinavia (Norwegians and Swedish)
53. Germany (Recent German)
54. France (Recent French)
UK series
55. Ensay (Late Medieval to post-Medieval periods, Scotland)
56. Poundbury (Late Roman period, Southwest England)
57. Spitalfields-1 (Mid-Victorian, London)
58. Spitalfields-2 (Pre-17th century, London)
North Africans
59. Naqada (Predynastic Egypt, ca. 5,000-4,000 BP)
60. Gizeh (26th-30th Dynasty, Egypt, BC)
61. Kerma (12th-13th Dynasty of Nubia)
62. Nubia (Early Christian or Christian date Nubia)
Subsaharan Africans
63. Somalia (Erigavo District, Ogaden Somali)
64. Nigeria-1 (Ibo tribe)
65. Nigeria-2 (Ashanti tribe)
66. Gabon (Fernand Vaz River)
67. Tanzania (Haya tribe, Musira Island, Lake Victoria)
68. Kenya (Bantu-speaking people from Kenya)
69. South Africa (Zulu and once called Kaffir tribes)
70. Khoisans (Bushmans and Hottentots)

posted 20 September 2005 05:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Salpierre:
Interesting you bring up Hanihara. I don't remember exactly but I think his "early West Asians" were very old, possibly tens of thousands of years, before races as we know them came into being.

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posted 20 September 2005 05:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
[B] But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.

A well designed study should capture that diversity.

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That argument doesn't really work. Somalis represent an extreme in teh sub-Saharan morphology, and the Egyptians still clustered outside them and more toward the Europeans. If he included other Africans, they would have clustered with sub-Saharans or would have been positioned intermediately between sub-Saharans and Somalis. In one of his dendrograms he used a pooled group of Europeans and included Nubians and Somali, the Africans most likely to cluster with Egyptians, and look what happened:

posted 20 September 2005 06:10 PM            

quote:

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So his research supports the out-of-Africa model for populating the world. What's your point?

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The point is that some modern African and Eurasian populations, including some early Europeans....share plesiomorphic traits,dental and cranial with the original Out of Africa populations and which are so described by Eric Trinkous and TW Holiday and others, as "African like", in physiogamy and are attributed to common origin.

Whereas CL Brace attributes tooth size reduction in the Nile Valley to a consequence of in situ adaptation due to early crop domestication.