posted 20 September 2005 06:37 PM            

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Originally posted by Salpierre:
That argument doesn't really work. Somalis represent an extreme in the sub-Saharan morphology

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That conclusion is unsubstantiated by CL Brace for reasons he himself has presently acknowledged, and directly refuted by Jean Hiernaux whom Brace now concurs with:

Tutsi of Rwanda:

[color=green]

• Stature: 176 cm
  
• Head length: 198 mm
  
• Head breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face height: 125 mm
  
• Face breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose height: 56 mm
  
• Nose breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 92.8
  
• Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]

  
  Masai:

  [color=blue]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 140 mm
  
• Face Height: 121 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 137 mm
  
• Nose Height: 54 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 47.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 72.8
  
• Facial Index: 89.0
  
• Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]

  
  Galla(Oromo):

  [color=red]

• Stature: 171 cm
  
• Head length: 190 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face Height: 122 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 133 mm
  
• Nose Height: 53 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 37 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.3
  
• Cephalic Index: 77.6
  
• Facial Index: 91.5
  
• Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]

  Sab Somali:

  [color=gray]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 145 mm
  
• Face Height: 119 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose Height: 49 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 36 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.7
  
• Facial Index: 88.5
  
• Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]

  Warsingali Somali:

  [color=navy]

• Stature: 168 cm
  
• Head length: 192 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 143 mm
  
• Face Height: 123 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 131 mm
  
• Nose Height: 52 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 34 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 94.1
  
• Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
  

Extremes,

Tallest: Tutsi

Longest heads: Tutsi

Widest heads: Oromo

Facial Index [least] Sab Somali; [most] Warsingali Somali -> PAUSE HERE, for thought.

continue.....

Face Height: Tutsi

Face Width: Masai

Nose Height: Tutsi

Nose Breadth/least: Somali

Relative Trunk length/least: Masai

Cephalic Index: Oromo

Nasal Index: Somali

The Somali do not even constitute an extreme when compared to only 3 other ethnic groups, much less for the entiriety of Sub-saharan Africa, most of whom from Nigerians to Ethiopians we have no such information for.

So the facts stand:
Both methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies. - Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure".

A well design study **must** reflect the reality of diversity within tropical Africans, and not disguise it behind contrived clustering methods.
______________________________________________

As for the Ancient Egyptians, most anthropological studies of Upper Egyptian remains from pre-dynastic and onwards, relate them most closely to Nubians, who are in turn related to other elongated Africans....and **not** Europeans.

NO Badarian cranium in ANY analysis classified into the European series. - SOY Keita.

posted 21 September 2005 09:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
And...

[b]"As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa." (Brace et al., 1993, p. 19)

[/B]

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Thought Writes:

Again, in SOME ways Horn of Africa populations have greater similarity phenotypically to some Eurasians than to other Sub-Saharan Africans. In other ways, such as limb elongation and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Sub-Saharan Africans.

Likewise, in SOME ways Greeks have greater similarity phenotypically to some Sub-Saharan Africans (dark hair color and eye color) than to other Europeans (such as Swedes and the Irish). In other ways, such as cranial morphology and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Europeans.

Lineage and hence "Race" is based upon blood however. When we look at the bloodline of the Greeks we see that they LACK the defining European male lineages R1b and haplogroup I. The populations from the Horn of Africa on the otherhand share in the common Sub-Saharan bloodline - the PN2 clade.

posted 21 September 2005 09:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

But of course, Sub saharan Africans are highly diverse and include Somali - far more craniometrically diverse than Europeans in fact.

A well designed study should capture that diversity.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 September 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Indeed. I would add that cranio-facial diversity is but one gage of phenotype. Europeans are much more diverse when it comes to eye and hair color. Diversity is accentuated when it comes to African people and downplayed when it comes to Europeans.

posted 21 September 2005 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Salpierre:

....before races as we know them came into being.

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Thought Writes:

posted 22 September 2005 06:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Again, in SOME ways Horn of Africa populations have greater similarity phenotypically to some Eurasians than to other Sub-Saharan Africans. In other ways, such as limb elongation and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Sub-Saharan Africans.

Likewise, in SOME ways Greeks have greater similarity phenotypically to some Sub-Saharan Africans (dark hair color and eye color) than to other Europeans (such as Swedes and the Irish). In other ways, such as cranial morphology and skin color, etc they phenotypically cluster with other Europeans.

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No. That's a ridiculous analogy, and you're a scientifically ignorant fool. Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland. However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids, not every other race on earth.

quote:

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When we look at the bloodline of the Greeks we see that they LACK the defining European male lineages R1b and haplogroup I.

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What's a "defining European male lineage", and why do you assume there are only two? If you mean a lineage that originated in Europe, then Balkan E-M78-alpha is as European as R1b and I (which Greeks carry, btw).

quote:

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The populations from the Horn of Africa on the otherhand share in the common Sub-Saharan bloodline - the PN2 clade.

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Irrelevant to the racial affiliations of haplogroups.

quote:

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Your position is flawed. Before we can debate "races as we know them" YOU must first define and delineate what YOU mean when you use the term "race".

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Why would anyone be interested in how laymen like Salpierre, myself or others on this forum define race? How about we go by anthropologist Colin Groves' definition instead?

For about 30 years the origin of the modern human species has been the subject of much debate. We are divided into well-marked, if overlapping, geographic races:

* Caucasoid people in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent;
* Mongoloid people in eastern and South-East Asia, the Pacific and the Americas;
* Negroid people in Africa, south of the Sahara; and
* Australoid people in Australia and Melanesia.

posted 22 September 2005 07:01 AM            

quote:

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Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland.

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Actually Thought is correct. It is your argument that is self defeating.

Phenotypical features such as hair color vary clineally, so that blondes make up over 50% of Nordic countries, but only 10% in Southern Europe and are essentially non-existant in tropical Africa.

If black hair is 'too common' to be of relevance....then blonde hair is not.

So either it is significant that most Greeks and sub-saharans are dark [in hair and eyes], which is a common trait....Or it is significant, that most Nordes are blonde, which is an uncommon trait.

Either way it unites southern Europeans with tropical Africans and clusters them away from Nordics.

Thought's logic is sound. And **your** illogical argument explodes in your face, as usual.

As for elongated Africans like the Somali, per Hiernaux whom CL Brace concurs with....they should not be considered closely related to Euroepans, with whom they difer greatly physically in a number of respects.

quote:

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However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids

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Meaningless **in terms of Brace's work** as Brace regards the term "caucaZoid" as meaningless.

Wrong in **any** terms as the principal shared featured between elongated Africans and some Europeans is nasal index -

The nasal index was popularly used by diffusionists to prove "white" origins of civilizations as diverse as the Chinese, Mayan and Polynesian. This dark white relationship was founded on such concepts as long, narrow noses being labeled "Caucasoid."
Eskimos, American Indians, Northern Chinese, etc., all have narrow noses but show little evidence of gene flow with Europeans.

Indeed, genetic studies have shown that the belief that straight, narrow noses among Nilotic peoples is due to migrations from Europe or Asia is not correct. (Molnar, 1991)
PKM's Short Primer on Physical Anthropology

quote:

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What's a "defining European male lineage"

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The lineages they had when they migrated into Europe, and shared for most of their history as Europeans. The lineages used to define aboriginal [First] Europeans by geneticists like Underhill.

R1b and I: . about 80 percent of all European males shared a single pattern, suggesting they had a common ancestor thousands of generations ago

The lineages that distinguished from neolithic lineages **imported** into Euro as admixture from nubia [Larry Angel], namely tropical African PN2 lineages.

Keep trying....

posted 22 September 2005 11:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Having dark hair and eyes does not make one "phenotypically similar to sub-Saharan Africans" because those features are shared by people all over the globe, including in Sweden and Ireland. However, the craniofacial traits that Somalis possess make them phenotypically similar to Caucasoids and only to Caucasoids, not every other race on earth.

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1) Of course these Black African derived features are "shared by people all over the globe". People all over the globe descend from a small group of Paleolithic Black Africans. Hence certain phenotypic features such as dark skin and hair spread out of Africa with humans. As humans adapted to new environments they adapted new and unique phenotypes. We see this with the light hair and eyes of **TRUE** Europeans. Greeks lack these true European features because they lack the true European bloodlines defined by haplogroup I and R1b.

2) Cranio-facial make-up represents a sub-set of overall phenotype, which includes eye and hair color. Cranio-facial morphology does not represent phenotype in totality. Limb elongation and skin color ALSO represent phenotype. Somalis have limb elongation and dark skin like other Africans, hence they share in a common phenotype with other Africans. Somalis ALSO share in the Sub-Saharan bloodline defined as the PN2 Y-Chromosome.

3) Some West Africans such as Fulanis and Tuaregs share cranio-facial phenotypes with Somalis. Some Northern Europeans such as the "Black Irish" share dark hair and eye color with Greeks. However, the typical phenotypic trend in West Africa is broader cranio-facial phenotypes in Western Africa than in Eastern Africa. Likewise, the typical phenotypic trend in Northern Europe is lighter eyes and hair than in Southern Europe. What distinguishes these two scenarios is that while Horn of Africa populations share in common gene pools with Western Africans, Greeks have substantially insignificant frequencies of the true European bloodlines Hg I and Hg R1b.

posted 23 September 2005 12:35 AM            

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". - Angel

...which in this case, has been attributed to mixing with black East Africans! So "genetic relationship", not mere coincidental or "unrelated" superficial similarities, has been established as the cause of these circumstances.

posted 23 September 2005 06:40 AM            

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Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
If black hair is 'too common' to be of relevance....then blonde hair is not. Either way it unites southern Europeans with tropical Africans and clusters them away from Nordics.

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No, it doesn't. It unites Southern Europeans with all dark-haired and -eyed people worldwide, including the Chinese. And blond hair unites Northern Europeans with Australian Aborigines. Obviously, Mediterraneans are not Mongoloid and Nordics are not Australoid, which is why scientists don't make inferences about race based on hair and eye color, you clueless ape.

quote:

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Wrong in **any** terms as the principal shared featured between elongated Africans and some Europeans is nasal index -

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Quoting from Afronut websites isn't going to save you, monkey. Of course, craniometry involves more than just nasal index.

Analysis based on 24 cranial measurements:

quote:

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The lineages they had when they migrated into Europe, and shared for most of their history as Europeans. The lineages used to define aboriginal [First] Europeans by geneticists like Underhill.

The lineages that distinguished from neolithic lineages **imported** into Euro as admixture from nubia [Larry Angel], namely tropical African PN2 lineages.

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* Yawn *

posted 23 September 2005 06:46 AM            

quote:

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And blond hair unites Northern Europeans with Australian Aborigines

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No EuroMonkey. Blonde hair is extremely rare in Aborigines, but it is predominent in Nordics.

So blondeness separates Northern Europe from Southern Europe, regardless.

Keep trying...

posted 24 September 2005 06:51 AM            

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Originally posted by Ignorant Ape:
Blonde hair is extremely rare in Aborigines

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posted 24 September 2005 02:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Puro Hybrido:
Anthrometry is also pseudoscientific IMO. This stuff was largely discredited thanks to Franz Boas. [/B]

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posted 24 September 2005 02:53 PM            

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Blondeness separates Northern Europe from Southern Europe, regardless.

Keep trying...

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