posted 30 August 2005 02:04 PM            

who can call all the ancient berber tribes?

of course, it is somehow impossible to call all the ancient berber tribes. but, that is not the point, i only mean the known tribes, wich are named by the egyptians, greeks and the romans (the tribes that are called by the arabs, wouldn't be considered as "ancient" berber tribes.

i don't like to be the first one.

posted 31 August 2005 08:23 AM            

"[...] The Greek called them Libyans, Romans referred to them as Africans, Numidians and Moors; the Arabs would dub them Berbers."
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Berbers.htm

posted 31 August 2005 09:15 AM            

Although the link is informative it still smacks of eurocentric bias, though some information is correct.

THE LIE:
The Berbers never have been or now a Indo-Germanic people. They have nothing to do with that modern descriptive. The are native Africans who through isolation debeloped as they are today. The Indo-Germanic epitaph is a modern term and also a false one. They have nothing to do with Germany nor any association with Sanskrit or even Persian! The Indo-Germanic term, as I believe I understand it, is linguistic asociated. (punto e aparte from ma fren tego-personal humour)!

posted 01 September 2005 06:18 AM            

it doesn't matter wheter they are indo-germanic related or not. all i wanted to say is that the berbers aren't known as berbers in the history but as "libyans", "moors", "africans", "numidians". and this is an important information to explore the history of the berbers.

on the other hand, this definition is very wrong "The are native Africans who through isolation debeloped as they are today"

when were they isolated !

to osirion:
what you said is logical, but the relationship between europe and the berbers is more complex (that would be another topic).

posted 03 September 2005 09:07 AM            

Gaetulians: One of the three largest African desert tribes, they live to the south of the coastal kingdoms of Numidia and Mauretania. Their success as warriors lie in their mobility and their ability as riders of horses. Unlike other African desert tribes they tend to live in wooden fortified strongholds in places of strategic importance, although no large settlements are known to exist.

Garamantes: The largest African desert tribe, operating from the desert city of Garama in the south. Their region is known as Phasania. The southern desert region is notoriously barren and the Berber tribes survive by knowing the location of drinkable water. In battle they rely almost exlusively upon showering their enemies with javelins then sweeping them aside with sudden ferocious infantry charges. They mainly fought on foot in ranks armed with pikes and their throwing missiles tend to be javelins.

Augilae: One of the three largest African desert tribes, operating from the desert city of Augila in the south. They operate as far north as the coast of the Middle Sea and divide Cyrenaica from Egypt. The southern desert region is notoriously barren and the Berber tribes survive by knowing the location of drinkable water. Their success as warriors lie in their mobility and their ability as riders of camels. In battle they rely almost exlusively upon showering their enemies with javelins then sweeping them aside with sudden ferocious infantry charges in formation with pikes.

posted 03 September 2005 12:13 PM            

the temhu were blond, fair and blue eyed. they were of the central saharan origin.

posted 03 September 2005 12:23 PM            

dr. mohamed ali 'issa, prof. of the archeology and the ancient civilizations. division of the history - letter faculty- fath university

herodotus has already mentioned that libya's borders begin where the western egypt ends. and he indicated the northern coast of libya with what follow the lake maryot to (sologos)'s cop (spartle cop) and the south of tangier on the atlantic ocean [the berber activists call this region "tamazgha"]. and he [-herodotus-] mentioned that the inhabitents wich live along this region belongs to one community, and they divided in many tribes exepts the regions that are inhabited by the greeks, and the phoenicians. herodotus considerd the lake tritonis -which lies eventually in the qabi's gulf- as a separating border between two groups of the libyans, one of them lives in the west of the lake, and consists of farmers who were used to be stabile, and the other group lives in the east of that lake, and they were nomadic people. we remark that herodotus didn't make any racial distinction, but we remark that he noticed the sort of the life of them. it appears clearely that this distinction made the modern scholars dividing the early libyans in two groups too: western libyan, and eastern libyans. and libya was further more extend by herodotus to expand the non-coastal regions like as the oasisses and the desert. he referred clearly to that in many paragraphes in his fourth book where he said: "i have previousely spoken about the nomadic libyans who live along the coast of the sea, but under this regions, there are regions which are full of the dangerous animals. and under this previous region there is a line of sand from thebe in egypt to the pillars of heracles (gibraltar).
and ther lies many hills with the sand round them long that line, and there live the natives in their homes. herodotus told that those hills are numerous and they are far from each others about walking ten days. it is undoubtly that herodotus meant the many oasisses wich are widespread along the intern regio of libya. actually, herodotus told that some of these oasisses, like as: "the oasis of the ammonois" and he meant the people who worship amon, and they are the native people of siwa. and thereafter he called the inhabitents of "oujla" and "the oasisses of the garamantes". furthermore, he said that there behind this sandline which consists many oasisses, there the southern and the intern parts of libya, that is a desert where there is neither water nor animals, nor rain, nor trees and nor traces of a human life, either. and therefor, we are able to generalize the name "libya" and "the ancient libyans" on all north africa and the central desert.
and this region is called "the maghrib arab" [such as historians it is possible to affiliate this region with the inhabitents of the moon, but you can never expect that it was inhabited by the berbers] and it is divided in five countries, that are: libya, tusinia, algeria, morocco and mauritania. and to simpifisy this study, we named it "the old maghrib". and it whileworth that the eminent historian ibn khaldun called this region with this name in his book: "kitab al'ibar wa daiwan almobtada' wa alkhabar" in about seven centuries ago, and therefor when we speak about the ancient libyans and, we speak then about the region of the ancient maghrib and the inhabitents of the ancient/old maghrib in the early times.

it is possible to explore the history of the ancient libyans on two sorts of the archeologic and historical sources:
-the ancient egyptian source wich are situated between the period of the pre-dynasties till the upcoming of the greeks to the green mountain, and the regions thereround in the severnth century b.c. and the greek, roman and the bizantiyne sources till the arabic islamic invasion in the seventh century after christus, and we remark through these sources, that they are written by one side, wich is non-libyan, and therefor, it is full with the overexageratings and unneutrality, especially, that the archeological in the first period, that is the period of the relashionship with the ancient egyptians. that period didn't provide any usefull informations wherethrough we would be able to write a complet history for this region, whereaas the second sources, and those are the greek and the roman source however they were written by the exeptionally by the greeks and the romans too, there are many important facts in this region proved during that period.

firstly- the ancient egyptian sources:
it is possible to divid the ancient egyptian sources according to the historical phases of that region of the nile valley in the early times, to many divisions, and those are:

a-the documents of the pre-dynastic period, and the beginnig of the dynasties: we remark that these sources are somehow depictings without any written texts, because the hyrogliefs's writting wasn't complet in that time, and this sources are:
1- the hilt of the "jebel el-irq" [this is just a transcription]: this hilt is found in the direction of "naj' hammadi" [transcription] in the eastern desert. the drawings on the hilt represent men with tufts and they weared the cothes arround their corp's middle [i couldn't find the correct word for it ], and those characters are undertaken by the historians as characters of the ancient libyans in that time.

2- hunting's board wich is known as leon's board: this board represent a number of men carrying the spears and arcs and around them there are many animals for hunting and they decorate their hair withe feathers/plums and they have tails [i'm not sure whether this is a correct translattion] wich extends to their shirts. all these characters are considered as libyan characters by the scholars, and those mentions are mainly found in the rock drawings in the central desert, and it is from the pre-historic period.

3-the tehenu's board: it is considered as the most archeological evidence, wich reffers to the ancient libyans, and it is found in "abidous" in the high egypt, and the german sholar "tasiti" could distinct through this board the hyroglif's characters wich refer to the "tehenu". we found on one of its sides drawings that represent seven protected towns in alliance with eacht others, and are defeated by the king. on the other side/face [of that board] we find three rows that represent the donkeys, catlle and oxes, and thereunder are olive trees, and therenear are hyroglife characters wich refer to the tehenu.

4-the unification board: the name tehenu appeared for the first time during the first dynasy (3200-3400 b.c.) in the time of "n'rmr" [bad transcription] on a disk of the ivory wich is known as the unification board. and the king appears in this drawing/crave that he was hitting a group of internees and above them there was written the name "tehenu" in hyroglifs, and the scholars desputed the inteprettaion of that board, and therefor, we find "pristad" [bad transcription] explain it as: "na'rmar defead the libyans", wheras we "driton" and "guardner" explain it as:"na'ramar defeat the inhabitent of the sea's side and unificate the two countries". We ramark that all the sholars are right, because many of the scolars think tha "na'ramar" could unficate the region of the nile valley after he banned the libyans who lived in the sea' side, and the remarkable thing here is that it is impossible to distanguish the images and the shapes of the nile valley's inhabitents in this board and the tehenu or the libyans who wer mentioned with their barb, their feathers the egyptian sources, and they weared clothes arond their corp's middle, and tails from their shirts.

b-the documents of the ald countries (2900-2280 b.c): it is remarkable that these documents got written in the hyroglifs from the days of the old country, sometime the text are abreviated and in other times they are detailed to maximal extends, and they are to divid as follows:
1- the text of the king senfrou the founder of the fourth dynasty, on stone in "rmo" [bad transcription]: this text shows thta the king snfro led an anabasis against the tehenu and captured 1100 of them and conquered 13100 of the cattle's heads [cattle].
2-the texts of the king sahrou' of the fifth dynasty on the walls of the king's temple of sahrou': those craves provided as many informations on the tehenu, especially, as far as their skin, clother and other characters are concerned, and they remind us the image of the ancient libyans wich we inferred from the documents of the pre-dynastic and the beginning of the dynastic times.
3-the texts of "ona" the ruler of the south: "ona" the ruler of the south is called on the walls of his coffin in abidos. that tell as that he made an army against the nomads os asia, in the time of the king "bibi I" (the sixth dynasty), and the army constists many inhabitents of the south and among them there were the temehu, and this seems to be the first time when the temehu tribes were named.
4-the Harkhof texts the ruler and the leader of the caravans in the south (the sixth dynasty): Harkhof described his expedition to the province "yam" in nubia in his text left on the walls of his coffin in the "fintin" [bad transcription], and he also went forwards untill he arrived the country of the temehu that lies in the west south of the nile.

c-the documents of the middle state [egypt] (2060 - 1785 b.c.): even if there are found some documents, there is not much on the libyans, and it is unclear, and the most important texts wich concerned the libyans, is:
1-the snohi story, and a palace man in the times of the king "mntohteb I" (1991-1961 b.C): Snohi said that sansort the son of the king mantoheb I made a war against the temehu. and the historians believe that he won the war, considering what diodorus sicillius that snusert I defeated/ruled the biggest part of libya.
2-the remains of the inhabitents which is known as the group "j"[or "g", it is unclear in the arabic writting]: these inhabitents lived during the period of the middle state [the term state is better thatn country in this sense, i remark], and their remains made some relatioships between the libyans and the south of the nile region clear. Some sholars consider this group as a southern branch of the temehu or as a southern libyans.

d-the documents of the modern state (1580-1085 b.c.): the modern state left us the most documents that are mainly images and craves, and therethrough we knew many libyan tribes before herodotus, thus, during the 13th and 12nd b.c. and those documents are to summarize as follows:

1-the documents of the tebes coffins in the period of the queen "hatshbsot" and the king "tahtmas III": some coffins/tombs of thebes of the period between 1490-1447 b.c. remained us mainly images that represent paying taxes by some libyan tribes in the oasis of bahriyya.

2-the drawings of the karnak temple: and it go back to the period of the king seti I and that refer to dangerous attacks that were caused by the tehenu tribe and there is referred to those attacks in the period of ramsis II, too. and through those two craves, one of them is found in the bit el-wali temple and the other is found in the abi samble temple. both of them spoke about aboud the defense against th tehenu tribes. some sholars desputed the factuality of those dangerous attacks and the defense by the kings of the inhabitent of the nile region, those scholars consider those drawings as just repeatitions and decorations through some former events in th past.

3-the craves of the obeliks of ra'msis II wich is discoverd in the town tanis: those craves/drawings refer to help required by ramsis II from the libyan troops that are annexed to the egyptian army.

4-the craves of the karnak temple and the cairo pillar and the atrib board and the poeme of the victory poem: all of those four sources spoke -like as some scholars believe- about the victory of the king mernptah (the nineth dynasty) and the alliance between the libou, qahq, meshwesh and the sea people [remark that the libou, qahq, meshwesh aren't sea people, but libyans like as we will see] wich consists five tribes, and those are: aqawacha, rourcha, chardan, loka and chekles [the transcriptions are incorrect]. and the scholars see respectively in them "akhis" "atraskis" "sardinians" "lukkians" and "scicillians" [unclear sentence]. all of them went towards the nile valley in order to conquer it and to establish there, and they were led by the chief of the libou tribes "mra ibn add" [these historian gave a the arabic word "ibn" to the name of the berber chief, it must be a translation of a libyan/berber word that means son, i believe (the berbers aren't arabe, and even not semitic, hower some of them are conquered by the arabs for ever, and chosed their identity)].

5-the old burdi [the used papers by the egyptians, i think (non-clear word)] of haris: this burdi is more than fourty m long, and it is about 42 cm broad, this burdi spoke about the attack of the libou towards the region of the nile delta, and it is understood on the basis of this text that the reason of this attack is because the king tried to make with his power a ruler on the libyans from them but is brought up in his palace but the libyans rejected that ruler because they considered hem as the pharao himself.

6-the craves and the boards of the ramsis III mourning temple in the town habo situated in the western thebes: those boards and craves spoke about an attack by the meshwesh against the region of the nile valley and it was headed by the leader of the meshwesh "kbr"[i also see no vowels in arabic] and his son "mshisher" and the Haris burdi and the craves of the habo temple which are written in the period of ramsis III are considered as the last documents that spoke about the ancient libyan tribes that had contacts with the nile valley in the ancient times.

the ancient libyans through the ancient egyptian sources:

we are able after through citing the ancient egyptian sources two divise the ancient libyan groups to two groups that are called in those texts, according to their historical succession, as follows:

1-tehinu: the country of the tehinu is bordered by the west of nile valley channel, because it is always called in the several texts when the nmas of countries situated in the west of egypt are called, and Dr. ahmed fakhri believe -on the basis of the scholars opinions- that the country of the tehinu represented the country of the fayum, the oases and the natron river and borqa [the transcription is always incorrect]. and françios chameau had already believed that the country of the tehunu consisted all the regions situated the west of the nile valley including the southern provinces. and we remark that at the beginning of the fifth dynasty of the old state and till the eighteenth dynasty the name "tehinu" became generally indicating all libya and the ancient libyans, too. the german scholar "hwasher" believe that the tehunu lieved in the nile valley, and then they are banned by the kings of the regions of the sea side/face from this fertile province, after the unification with the region of the kabyle (tribes, he wrote) side. and this seems to true, and that is supported by the opinion of "gardner" that saying that the images of the tehunu appears in the egyptian craves/drawings like as there is strong relationship between them and the the ancient egyptians, and that appears in trough their clothes that are completly like as the egyptian clothes, when they hanged tails on those clothes like as the pharaos did, and they decorated their fronds with tufts like as the sacred snak at the pharao's. and this relationship appears clearely in their stin characters, because they were brown like as the egyptians, they also circumcised like them, and they setted ? [i don't understand this word] to hide their corp middle like as the egyptians in the ancient times. and on the basis of those several evidences, the scholars could conclude that the egyptians are of libyan origin. the scholars assure that the egyptians immigrated into the nile valley in early ages, as hunters and cattle shepherds and later they became sedentaire farmers. it is undoubly that the ancient libyans meant here are the inhabitent of the central sahara who reached in the neolitic age to a advanced civilization. and we have alrady that thanks to them the agriculture is entered into the nile valley in the beginnig, and later in all north africa.

2-temhu: gardner believes that the country of temhu extents along the western borders of the western egypt to taraplus [tripolis, i think] and nubia in the south, whereas ahmed fakhri believes that the temhu were concentrated in the same country of the tehenu, after they conquered them, with conquering the oases which has fertile lands and that extends to the west of the nile valley, and he believes that they speads to the south of darvor. about the origin of temuhu, there appeared two theories on this topic: the owners of the first theory believe that they immigrated from europe into north africa and then they enxtend deeply in the in the south, and the believe that they are the descendents of the "vandals" or any other nordic race, and base their theory on the colour of the skin with wich the temhu are mentioned, contrary to the other libyans, like as: the yellow hair [blondish hair] and the blue eyes, and the white skin. but this theory doesn't occur with wich we proved above that those inhabitents with blondish hair and white skin were in the central sahara from the sixth millennium. and it also opposite what is proved by the archeology that the men didn't use the sea before the fifth mellennium b.c. and inaddition to that there is no evidence that the european inhabitents reaches the central sahara als immigrants in any age of the old history's ages. and it is worth that the first contact between the europeans and the north africa was at the end the second millennium b.c. with the arrive of the groups that were known as the so-called "the sea people" who tried to settle in the region of the nile valley, and like as it is known that attempt wasn't succesful in any case.
the owners of the second theory believe that the temhu were african people that followed their road from the south west from the desert towards the north and the north easth. and some scholars believe that the group that is known as the "group 'j'" [or 'g'] who their remains are found in the region of nubia, are a branch of the temhu and they are libyans. Oric Bates believe their remains occurs with the remains of the ancient libyans, and he recalled the evidences with prove this connection, and among them we call:

a-there is no difference between the skulls and the hair of the group "j" and the skulls of the miditerranean race, to whom the libyans belong in general, and the group of the temhu especially.

b-the groups "j" followed a manner of burying, and a circle style of constucting of tombs, and those are the same as the characters of the inhabitents of the central desert, and north africa and wich is known as "the stoning".

c-the craved drawings depict the men of the group "j" while they are wearing their clothes on the arc a the arrow as weapons, and those weapons were known in the central desert befor it would be known in nubia.

d-the fact that the group "j" belongs to the temhu is supported by what is fictile found in the tombs and "hur" that lies 400 km far than the westh south of the third waterfall, and through the comparison it appears that that fictile looks like as the fictile of the group "j" . and it is worth to remind that this fictile is found along the immigration's line of the temhu from their original country, that is believed -according to the most scholars- to be the central sahara before the dryness age. considering those evidences, we are able to conclude that the temhu, the group "j" and the inhabitents of the "hur" river are origianl from the central desert befor the dryness.

3-the libou or ribou: the most scholars believe that libou inhabited the the modern borqa, and probably, there countries extends to the easth till the oases region, especially, the siwa oasis, and it is eventually that the qahq and isbet groups were living in the same region that were ruled by the libou or ribou. the oldest calling of the libou was in the age of ramsis II, and from that time on, they began to have an important role in the conflict between egypt and the ancient libyan tribes, they contributed as chiefs in the wars provoked against the king mernptah, and contributed also as chiefs in the wars against ramsis III. we believe that the name libou, is generalized to refer to all the region in the west of the nile valley in the late period of the old state. and as result, the other names disappeared. and on that bais the name libyan used by the greeks to refer some to the inhabitent in the west of the nile valley, and other times to indicate all africa. and this shows the appearence of the name libou, and the disappearence of the other names that were found in a board in previous period, and that dates back to the period of sheshonq, and it consisted names of the libyan tribes, and it is a board that is called "the board of the nine tribes", and it appears therethrough that the name replaced the traditional name with wich the libyan were known: "tehenu". and we find another document that dates back to ages of the king sheshonq (757-763 b.c), and it refers to shining libyan figure/personality called "hitihnkr"and it described him as the the master of the libou, and it appears therethrough that the region was known as "libou" along that period that is succeded the new state of the history of the ancient egypt. and we believe that that was the reason why the greeks called the by them conquered region in the green mountain "libya". and that is so heppen because this region was the only known region in north africa to them.

4-meshwesh: the scholars believe that the meshwesh inhabited the northern regions of the libyan desert, and some of them believe that their hoouses extended to the westh till the regions that represent the modern tunisia, and others believe that the meshwesh are the same maxyans who wer called by herodotus, and they lived to the westh of the lake tritonis, but with the beginnig of eighteenth egyptian dynasy, began the meshwesh concentrate around the western borders of egypt, requiring to establish their around the delta of the nile valley, and through consulting the documents that spoke about the war between them and the egyptians, it appears that the meshwesh wished to establish their, and that they made clear. and however they and their allied "the libou" failed to reach the nile delta with the war, they could establish in many regions in siwa either as borders guarders or working in the army for making their live. the egyptian army consisted exeptionally the libyans, and no others at the beginnig of the twentieth egyptian dynasty. and the egyptian kings gave them lands as salaries. and this led to the existence of militair groups that were headed by the libyans and no other. some of them [meshweh] could -like as we knew - achieve imoprtant funcions in the royale palace, and leadership in the army, and some of them -like as sheshonq- could become rulers in some egyptian regions where they gathered the civil and religious power in their hands, and so, and easily sheshonq could counquer the throne in egypt as soon as the last king of the twenty-first died. and therefor, the meshwesh could found the twenty-first dynasty that ruled egypt for about two centuries.

the tehnu, temhu, libou, and the meshwesh were the important libyan tribes, that were widespread and that played clear roles in the developments of the time. and therefor we find them detailed in the ancient egyptian texts. whereas the other tribes were called as simple indications. probably, they didn't strongly influence the situations in the region, or probably because these tribes were followers of bigger tribes in that time, or for the existence of their countries among the countries of another bigger tribes, and among those tribes,we call: "isbt", "qbt", "tekthen" , "baqn", "kikesh", "sped" and "qbq" [those transcriptions aren't correct].

translated from: http://www.libsc.org/st/p0003.htm

posted 03 September 2005 12:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:

hi thought2 and djehuti,
there are clear evidences that the central sahara was inhabited by blue-eyed and fair-skinned people

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 03 September 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Hi Mazigh,

I eagerly await the scientific, peer-reviewed evidence you claim to have?

posted 03 September 2005 12:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
I eagerly await the scientific, peer-reviewed evidence you claim to have?

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like this:

quote:

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[...]but this theory doesn't occur with what we proved above that those inhabitents with blond hair and white skin inhabited the central sahara from the sixth millennium.

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posted 03 September 2005 12:54 PM            

quote:

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the important known libyan (berber) tribes through the egyptian sources are:
tehuno ; temhu ; libou ; meshwesh.

the temhu were blond, fair and blue eyed. they were of the central saharan origin

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The ancient Egyptians depict the first Libyans as being reddish-brown and wearing a beard. After the New Kingdom the Tamahou are depicted as bright skinned. Many have often said blonde hair but I have not seen any reliefs of the sort. Some had reddish hair,but most have bright skin and dark type hair.

Do you have any pictures of the Tehennu? Tamahou? meshwesh? or Lebou? Please post them if you do.

Please note that I have not read Oric Bates The Eastern Libyans

A more recent book in English is the following:

Leahy 1990. Anthony Leahy. Libya and Egypt. c1300-750 BC. London

posted 03 September 2005 01:36 PM            

It is unfortunatly that the scholars don't give images in their articles, and therefor, i'm not able to know how it would be clear that some central saharan people had blue-eyes, i only trust them (like as: mohamed chafiq)

i found this in a forum:

the four fair-skinned (and eventually blue-eyed) and light-haird, are berbers/libyans (but i don't know from wich tribe), the others are:"nubian", "syrian" and "egyptian". (according to the author).

i also found this. however, he has white skin, he isn't blond (light-haird) has no blue eyes, and no feathers, either. i see:

from: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/people/foreigners.htm

posted 03 September 2005 02:06 PM            

Yes, I know that the Tamahou are fair skinned Libyan tribes. However, I have never seen any artwork from ancient Egypt that show them as blondes. Some definately are shown with reddish[chesnut] hair but most I see are fair skinned with dark hair.

The person not wearing plumes I believe is a Asiatic possibly from Western Asia.

We have to put the Tehennu and Tamahou into perpective. The Tamahou appears for the first time in the New Kingdom. There are no scenes of them in Egyptian artword untill the New Kingdom period.

This particular scene you referenced is from the New Kingdom and part of what is called the Book of Gates. The Book of Gates is a cosmological system showing Egyptians and others in their cosmological worldview.

posted 03 September 2005 02:40 PM            

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom. All the Central Saharan artwork shows obvious black Africans and no indications of any 'whites'.

posted 03 September 2005 03:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Also who was it who presented a genetic study that said these fair, blue-eyed Berbers have lineage originating from Iberia? Was it Thought? I have read past studies that show these white Berbers sharing the same blood types as some Spaniards but could this person cite the genetic source again?

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posted 03 September 2005 03:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
We been to this road so many times. But here are discussions that might be insightful:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/002479.html
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783-8.html

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Well it's not just for my sake but also for Mazigh!

posted 03 September 2005 05:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
like this:

by: [i]dr. mohamed ali 'issa, prof. of the archeology and the ancient civilizations.

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Thought Writes:

Hi Mazigh

posted 03 September 2005 05:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:

the berbers aren't homogenous. the tehnu were brown like as the ancient egyptians, but temhu were fair skinned and blue-eyed, according to the translated aricle above.

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 03 September 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Hi Mazigh,

Lets not jump the gun. Please FIRST provide evidence that the "tehnu" spoke a Berber language? Berber is defined by the berber language....correct?

posted 03 September 2005 05:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

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Thought Writes:

posted 03 September 2005 07:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Mazigh, I was talking about the one with no plumes wearing a headband. This person has no tattoes.

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the image is from this site, if you can find it: http://www.touregypt.net

posted 04 September 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

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and after the phase of the artworks of the blacks, there began some artworks to appear and they consisted white people and it dated back between 8000 - 7000 b.c. according to the researcher, and the white people are cinsidered as the early berber people who were mentioned with their decorated hair on various manners, tattoes and several symboles. the manners followed by the early berbers [imazighen and timazighin (female- and male berbers] in hair's decorating show that they are the ones who influeced this domein in the later civilizations especially the carthagian one and thereafter the roman, not the contrary. and it is worthy to remind that the decorating with the feathers, had a symbolic value to the early berbers [remind the story of amon's feathers], because it was related to the social rating at the berbers.

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quote:

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but this theory doesn't occur with wich we proved above that those inhabitents with blond hair and white skin were in the central sahara from the sixth millennium. and it also opposite what is proved by the archeology that the men didn't use the sea before the fifth mellennium b.c. and in addition, there is no evidence that the european inhabitents reached the central sahara as immigrants in any age of the old history's ages. and it is nothing worth that the first contact between the europeans and the north africa was at the end the second millennium b.c. with the arrive of the groups that were known as the so-called "the sea people" who tried to settle in the region of the nile valley, and like as it is known that attempt wasn't succesful in any case.
the owners of the second theory believe that the temhu were african people that followed their road from the south west from the desert towards the north and the north easth.

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quote:

---

III- historical and geografical data, supported by languistic data:

the topography of the central saharan region and the sort of the geologic stages that dates back to the the lethic ages: "the lethic and the neolethic ages", prove that the modern desert [the central desert] wasn't a desert in the antiquity. it was green with watery weather, and was covered by grasses. even, there grew many sort trees likes as the olive trees [...]. the many artworks (about 3000) in several places on the walls ... prove that there was a human variety, thus, two sort peoples [two races] that succeded each others in livng in the central desert. the first was black skinned. and he disappeared in the end of the the seventh millennium b.c. for any reason. and the second one was fair skinned, from the sixth millennium b.c. on, and he was mentione d with the tattoes on the corps of his members that were depicted in his period (Camps, I, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, H.J.Hugot, I, II)[...]

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translated from the book of mohamed chafiq (hafriyyat fi allogha(h)).

posted 04 September 2005 08:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:

he is syrian/aramic. the black man is nubian, the brown one is egyptian (according to the autor)
the image is from this site, if you can find it: http://www.touregypt.net

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posted 04 September 2005 09:30 AM            

the oldest name of the berbers was: "tehunu", and then they became known as "libyans/libou", and thereafter they became known as: "numidians" + africans / afer + moors / mauris / mauritanians. and they are today known as the berbers (berbers is eventually adapted by europeans from the arabs, not from the greek, all those claims are nowhere based. but the arabs adapted the word "barbar / berber" from the romans, who mayb adapted it again from the greeks, i can believe. but the berbers call themselves today Imazighen, wich is believed to be adapted from the ancient libyan / berber tribe: "the maxyans" who are called by "herodotus", and maybe they are the same berber / libyan tribe "the meshwesh" who are called by the ancient egyptians.

the berbers are fair-skinned and browns, but not blacks. they are descendents of white central sahran people, like as the rockarts show as, according to the given sources.

posted 04 September 2005 10:42 AM            

Dear Winters,

I would give some comments about the article named "The Proto-Saharan Homeland ..."*

You wrote in the introduction of that article:

"the original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers.[...]"

Thus, you believe that the "berbers" didn't inhabite "the central sahara", and this is the same case of the "Indo-European" speakers.
However, It is undesputable that "the indo-europeans" don't originate from the central sahara, I couldn't understand that the berbers don't originate from that region. Whereas you believe that the Sumarians and the Dravidian find their homeland in the central sahara. More ununderstable, you called the berbers in several names in your article, after your first remark about the berbers in the introduction. as example, I read:
<< For example they traced their roots back to the Sahara, especially Libya (!) and Nubia. The principle god for these Proto-Saharans was Amon or Amun. [...]>>

<< The Temehu (!) kept small live stock. In addition to worshiping Amon,this Libyan (!) group of Proto-Saharans worshipped the goddess Neith. In Europe she was called Athena, to the Manding and Minoans she was known as Nia.[..]>>

Given, that the ancient libyans are "the early Berbers", and that Amon was worshiped by the Berbers especially in the oase "Siwa" wich was known as "the oase of amon".... Given that the Temehu were a berber/libyan tribe, and that Neith was worshiped by the Berbers/Libyans. Even, it is believed that it is of Libyan origin, because it was called "the Libyan goddess" by the ancient Egyptians. and the myth tells us, that it was born in Lake Tritonis (situated in the modern Tunisia) from the lake tritonis and the Libyan/berber god Poseidon [he was adapted by the Greeks, but Herodotus acknowledged his Libyan origin, like as some other scholars did]. The goddess wich was known as "Athena" to the "Greeks" is ,indeed, the same Libyan goddess "Neith", like as Herodotus, Plato and others acknowledged. Moreover, she is believed to be the same Carthagian goddess "Tannit" (remark the female form of this name like as it is in the berber language and the ingorance of this last languge, however it maybe the most close related language to the ancient Egyptian language). Considering those facts, It is unanderstandable how the berbers are denied to be descendents of some central saharan people however you admit the central saharan origin of the ancient Libyans who are undoubtly the ancessors of the modern Berbers (or Imazighen like as they call themselves).
---------

Remark: if you will reply this critice, i will post it in a forum on the net in case that you have there no objection against.

posted 04 September 2005 12:37 PM            

Well, Cylde Ahmed Winters is not the most accurate source either. There is no evidence of ''white'' people with blonde hair in the Central Sahara. I would be careful just using rock art to come to conclusions on this. What skeletal remains we found in the Sahara all point to a sub-Saharan origin for the once dwellers in the Sahara.

See the following:

S. di Lernia, M. Cremaschi and F. Merighi, "Hunter-gatherers of the Central Sahara: a reassessment" - They limited their research to the territorial spread of human occupation and to social organization and the functions of the sites. There are many gaps in our knowledge of these people, where they came from, their social structure, beliefs, etc., and most of the sites that were studied don't go beyond about 7,000 BC. The sand seas in the area are abundant in sites of human occupation. They had a hierarchical distribution of their sites, base camps (residential) in the mountains, food procurement ones and workshops elsewhere. Palinological data indicate a longer occupation of the sites than previously assumed. (Note by the writer - Here I forgot to ask them if the palinological data was based on just a few samples or if on numerous and representative systematic studies in order to avoid the pitfalls this technique has involved in the past, but let's assume unless proved otherwise that the latter is the case). The picture shows the typical distribution of food resources with a greater abundance of the more easily storable goods. The pottery found includes many sherds that were decorated with incised geometrical motifs and is among the oldest in North Africa (9 to 10,000 BC). The few human remains found seem to have affinities (gene pool) with sub-Saharan populations. The petroglyphs are of a pastoral nature with figures of people and animals, mostly cattle.

http://www.geocities.com/juanjosecastillos/english.html

There is no evidence of displacement of the inhabitants of the Sahara untill much later times when most migrated towards the Nile Valley.

posted 04 September 2005 12:40 PM            

http://www.acacus.it/eng/ricter_arch_pre1a.htm

"In simple terms, the first human occupation at the end of the long hyper-arid phase marking the final millennia of the Pleistocene is characterized by small groups of hunter-gatherers, probably originating from regions to the south of the Acacus mountains.

This hypothesis is confirmed by environmental evidence – the monsoons which bring water, and thus vegetation and animals, came from the south – and by palaeoanthropology: the most ancient burial (over 8000 years old), excavated in the early 1990s at Uan Muhuggiag, shows ‘Negroid’ features."

posted 04 September 2005 12:44 PM            

"S. di Lernia, M. Cremaschi and F. Merighi,

"Hunter-gatherers of the Central Sahara: a reassessment"

They limited their research to the territorial spread of human occupation and to social organization and the functions of the sites. There are many gaps in our knowledge of these people, where they came from, their social structure, beliefs, etc., and most of the sites that were studied don't go beyond about 7,000 BC. The sand seas in the area are abundant in sites of human occupation. They had a hierarchical distribution of their sites, base camps (residential) in the mountains, food procurement ones and workshops elsewhere. Palinological data indicate a longer occupation of the sites than previously assumed. (Note by the writer - Here I forgot to ask them if the palinological data was based on just a few samples or if on numerous and representative systematic studies in order to avoid the pitfalls this technique has involved in the past, but let's assume unless proved otherwise that the latter is the case). The picture shows the typical distribution of food resources with a greater abundance of the more easily storable goods. The pottery found includes many sherds that were decorated with incised geometrical motifs and is among the oldest in North Africa (9 to 10,000 BC). The few human remains found seem to have affinities (gene pool) with sub-Saharan populations. The petroglyphs are of a pastoral nature with figures of people and animals, mostly cattle."

posted 04 September 2005 12:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
hoping that i will get any explication i wrote this e-mail to the writer of this site, this was my original sent e-mail:

Dear Winters,

I would give some comments about the article named "The Proto-Saharan Homeland ..."*

You wrote in the introduction of that article:

"the original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers.[...]"

Thus, you believe that the "berbers" didn't inhabite "the central sahara", and this is the same case of the "Indo-European" speakers.
However, It is undesputable that "the indo-europeans" don't originate from the central sahara, I couldn't understand that the berbers don't originate from that region. Whereas you believe that the Sumarians and the Dravidian find their homeland in the central sahara. More ununderstable, you called the berbers in several names in your article, after your first remark about the berbers in the introduction. as example, I read:
<< For example they traced their roots back to the Sahara, especially Libya (!) and Nubia. The principle god for these Proto-Saharans was Amon or Amun. [...]>>

<< The Temehu (!) kept small live stock. In addition to worshiping Amon,this Libyan (!) group of Proto-Saharans worshipped the goddess Neith. In Europe she was called Athena, to the Manding and Minoans she was known as Nia.[..]>>

Given, that the ancient libyans are "the early Berbers", and that Amon was worshiped by the Berbers especially in the oase "Siwa" wich was known as "the oase of amon".... Given that the Temehu were a berber/libyan tribe, and that Neith was worshiped by the Berbers/Libyans. Even, it is believed that it is of Libyan origin, because it was called "the Libyan goddess" by the ancient Egyptians. and the myth tells us, that it was born in Lake Tritonis (situated in the modern Tunisia) from the lake tritonis and the Libyan/berber god Poseidon [he was adapted by the Greeks, but Herodotus acknowledged his Libyan origin, like as some other scholars did]. The goddess wich was known as "Athena" to the "Greeks" is ,indeed, the same Libyan goddess "Neith", like as Herodotus, Plato and others acknowledged. Moreover, she is believed to be the same Carthagian goddess "Tannit" (remark the female form of this name like as it is in the berber language and the ingorance of this last languge, however it maybe the most close related language to the ancient Egyptian language). Considering those facts, It is unanderstandable how the berbers are denied to be descendents of some central saharan people however you admit the central saharan origin of the ancient Libyans who are undoubtly the ancessors of the modern Berbers (or Imazighen like as they call themselves).
---------

Remark: if you will reply this critice, i will post it in a forum on the net in case that you have there no objection against.

*http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/pro1.html]

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We had discussions on this issue before. First off, it is not known if we could connect the cult of Amon to Libya. Since his cult also had an early presence in Nubia as well as Egypt. And most scholars agree that there isn't enough evidence to suggest Neith was a Libyan goddess either. She cult seemed to have always been in the Fayum and delta region of Egypt.

posted 04 September 2005 03:38 PM            

quote:

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OThere is no evidence of ''white'' people with blonde hair in the Central Sahara.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[B] We had discussions on this issue before. First off, it is not known if we could connect the cult of Amon to Libya. Since his cult also had an early presence in Nubia as well as Egypt.

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quote:

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And most scholars agree that there isn't enough evidence to suggest Neith was a Libyan goddess either. She cult seemed to have always been in the Fayum and delta region of Egypt.

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posted 04 September 2005 04:40 PM            

quote:

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but the algerian archeologist "malika hachid" who spent 20 years in the sahara, said there are, this is the same case of the 'official' libyan prof of the archeology "ali 'issa", and the moroccan historian "mohamed chafiq". and surely there are more than them [the evidence that the central sahara was inhabited by white people too, from the period between 7000-6000 b.C. on]

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The only experts that can come to this conclusion are physical anthropologist. Are either Malika Hachid or Mohammed Chafiq physical anthropologist?

The skeletal remains do not support the pressence of ''white'' types predominating in the Sahara.

posted 04 September 2005 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

The only experts that can come to this conclusion are physical anthropologist. Are either Malika Hachid or Mohammed Chafiq physical anthropologist?
The skeletal remains do not support the pressence of ''white'' types predominating in the Sahara.

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as far as i know their conclusions were based on artworks that need no physical analyses.

posted 04 September 2005 05:12 PM            

quote:

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but this theory doesn't occur with what we proved above that those inhabitents [the libyan/berber tribe: temehu]with blond hair and white skin were in the central sahara from the sixth millennium.

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why would he claim that that is proved if that is not the right case ?

why would the others [malika hachid, g. camps] claim that that is to mention in the central sahara's rockarts if that is not true ?

posted 04 September 2005 05:47 PM            

But with rock art it is often hard to tell what ethnic group exactly drew the rock art. In some cases we can take the Rock art at Tassil and connect it to Sahelian Africans because some of the hair styles and even rituals are similar.

Some rock art painted white might be symbolic. For instance there is a tribe that lives in Chad that paint themselves completely white. How do we know that the rock art in question actually signify fair skinned people or just people painted ''white''?

This is why we need to study skeletal records of the Sahara. So far the skeletal remains studied have affinity with sub-Saharan Africans.

The Saharan culture is called either the Sudan-Saharo or African Aquatic culture. Both these are directly connected to the Khartoum Mesolothic/Neolithic.

posted 04 September 2005 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

But with rock art it is often hard to tell what ethnic group exactly drew the rock art. In some cases we can take the Rock art at Tassil and connect it to Sahelian Africans because some of the hair styles and even rituals are similar.

Some rock art painted white might be symbolic. For instance there is a tribe that lives in Chad that paint themselves completely white. How do we know that the rock art in question actually signify fair skinned people or just people painted ''white''?

This is why we need to study skeletal records of the Sahara. So far the skeletal remains studied have affinity with sub-Saharan Africans.

The Saharan culture is called either the Sudan-Saharo or African Aquatic culture. Both these are directly connected to the Khartoum Mesolothic/Neolithic.

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personally, i can't provide the answer, however it would somehow easily to distinguish the berber people, because of wearing feathers and tattoes.

As long as the called scholars are specilists, i keep believing they are right. because you are giving general theories without knowing their evidences that surely won't be unexpert as long as they are experts.

*the central sahara is known as the libyan sahara too, i believe.

posted 04 September 2005 06:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
the oldest name of the berbers was: "tehunu", and then they became known as "libyans/libou", and thereafter they became known as: "numidians" + africans / afer + moors / mauris / mauritanians. and they are today known as the berbers (berbers is eventually adapted by europeans from the arabs, not from the greek, all those claims are nowhere based. but the arabs adapted the word "barbar / berber" from the romans, who mayb adapted it again from the greeks, i can believe. but the berbers call themselves today Imazighen, wich is believed to be adapted from the ancient libyan / berber tribe: "the maxyans" who are called by "herodotus", and maybe they are the same berber / libyan tribe "the meshwesh" who are called by the ancient egyptians.

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I found this:

quote:

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BERBERS, the name under which are included the various branches of the indigenous Libyan race of North Africa. Since the dawn of history the Berbers have occupied the tract between the Mediterranean and the Sahara from Egypt to the Atlantic. The origin of the name is doubtful. Some believe it to be derived from the word f3itpj5apot (barbarians), employed first by the Greeks and later by the Romans. Others attribute the first use of the term to the Arab conquerors. However this may be, tribal titles, Barabara and Beraberata, appear in Egyptian inscriptions of 1700 and 1300 B.C., and the Berbers were probably intimately related with the Egyptians in very early times. Thus the true ethnical name may have become confused with Barbari, the designation naturally used by classical conquerors. To the Egyptians they were known as Lebu, Mashuasha, Tamahu, Tehennu and Kahaka ; a long list of names is found in Herodotus, and the Romans called them Numidae, Gaetuii and Mauri, terms which have been derived respectively from the Greek vouiibs (nomads), the name Guedoula, of a great Berber tribe, and the Hebrew mahur (western).

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see also: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/BAI_BAR/BARABRA.html

who knows more about this "brabra"?

posted 04 September 2005 06:37 PM            

Ausar is right, there has been no evidence of whites living in the Central Sahara, and certainly not around the time period you speak of, 7000-8000 B.C!

posted 04 September 2005 06:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Mazigh, exactly what evidence says that the Central Saharans were the Tamahou??
Ausar is right, there has been no evidence of whites living in the Central Sahara, and certainly not around the time period you speak of, 7000-8000 B.C!

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I didn't say they are tamahou, but a white people that is considered as proto-berber people. You say that ausar is right, because his opinions are occurs with your opinions. but the specialists said that there are evidences that there was a white people, that means then there are. i insist.

those white people appeared in the period between: 7000 and 6000 b.c., according to them.

note: g. camps -at least- can indicate the race of the human remains, i read.

posted 04 September 2005 06:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
I didn't say they are tamahou, but a white people that is considered as proto-berber people. You say that ausar is right, because his opinions are occurs with your opinions. but the specialists said that there are evidences that there was a white people, that means then there are. i insist.

those white people appeared in the period between: 7000 and 6000 b.c., according to them.

note: g. camps -at least- can indicate the race of the human remains, i read.

---

Can you give us a chronology? How did this white people appear in the heart of Africa all of a sudden?? From whence did they come from? What happened to them in the Sahara; did they die out from sun-exposure?? Why are are the only white Berbers today located along the coasts, especially Atlas region?

posted 04 September 2005 07:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[B] Can you give us a chronology? How did this white people appear in the heart of Africa all of a sudden?? From whence did they come from? What happened to them in the Sahara; did they die out from sun-exposure?? Why are are the only white Berbers today located along the coasts, especially Atlas region?

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i wish i could answer those quetions, but i'm afraid there are no exact correct answers, but the absence of the explication doesn't mean the absence of the phenomenon. nevertheless, i try:
1-they appeared in the central sahara in the period between: 6000 and 7000 b.c.
2-i have no answer.
3-i have no answer.
4-they didn't die, they immigrated into north africa and the nile valley, we see them as white people in the drawings of the ancient egyptians, and even, it is believed that many ancient egyptians were of libyan origin who ruled egypt, and spread there the cult of amon, like as the people of thebes. i read.
5-because they got more contacts with the europeans and less contacts with the black africans.

see also this: http://print.google.com/print?q=central+sahara++white&ie=UTF-8&prev=http%3A%2F%2Fprint.google.com%2Fprint%3Fq%3Dcentral%2Bsahara%2B%2Bwhite%26btnG%3DSearch%2BPrint&id=dsKlU6Ry8lgC

posted 04 September 2005 07:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
i wish i could answer those quetions, but i'm afraid there are no exact correct answers, but the absence of the explication doesn't mean the absence of the phenomenon. nevertheless, i try:
1-they appeared in the central sahara in the period between: 6000 and 7000 b.c.
2-i have no answer.
3-i have no answer.
4-they didn't die, they immigrated into north africa and the nile valley, we see them as white people in the drawings of the ancient egyptians, and even, it is believed that many ancient egyptians were of libyan origin who ruled egypt, and spread there the cult of amon, like as the people of thebes. i read.
5-because they got more contacts with the europeans and less contacts with the black africans.

see also this: [URL=http://print.google.com/print?q=central+sahara++white&ie=UTF-8&prev=http%3A%2F%2Fprint.google.com%2Fprint%3Fq%3Dcentral%2Bsahara%2B%2Bwhite%26btnG%3DSearch%2BPrint&id=dsKlU6Ry 8lgC]http://print.google.com/print?q=central+sahara++white&ie=UTF-8&prev=http%3A%2F%2Fprint.google.com%2Fprint%3Fq%3Dcentral%2Bsahara%2B%2Bwhite%26btnG%3DSearch%2BPrint&id=dsKlU6Ry 8lgC]central +sahara+ white [/URL]

---

I have yet to see proof for any of this. Exactly what evidence suggests there were whites in Saharan steppe 6,000-7,000 BC, that these people were part of the early Nile population, or that they have anything to do with the cult of Amon???

Do you have answers for any of these?

posted 04 September 2005 08:47 PM            

quote:

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4-they didn't die, they immigrated into north africa and the nile valley, we see them as white people in the drawings of the ancient egyptians, and even, it is believed that many ancient egyptians were of libyan origin who ruled egypt, and spread there the cult of amon, like as the people of thebes. i read.

---

The ''white'' type Tamahou appears in Egyptian reliefs around the New Kingdom period. Before this period the Libyan Tehennu are shown reddish brown in complexion. If any Libyan is connected to the early Saharans it was these groups and not the Tamahou.

posted 05 September 2005 08:01 AM            

quote:

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and after the phase of the artworks of the blacks, there began some artworks to appear and they consisted white people and it dated back between 8000 - 7000 b.c. according to the researcher, and the white people are cinsidered as the early berber people who were mentioned with their decorated hair on various manners, tattoes and several symboles. the manners followed by the early berbers [imazighen and timazighin (female- and male berbers] in hair's decorating show that they are the ones who influeced this domein in the later civilizations especially the carthagian one and thereafter the roman, not the contrary. and it is worthy to remind that the decorating with the feathers, had a symbolic value to the early berbers [remind the story of amon's feathers], because it was related to the social rating at the berbers.

---

quote:

---

but this theory doesn't occur with wich we proved above that those inhabitents with blond hair and white skin were in the central sahara from the sixth millennium. and it also opposite what is proved by the archeology that the men didn't use the sea before the fifth mellennium b.c. and in addition, there is no evidence that the european inhabitents reached the central sahara as immigrants in any age of the old history's ages. and it is nothing worth that the first contact between the europeans and the north africa was at the end the second millennium b.c. with the arrive of the groups that were known as the so-called "the sea people" who tried to settle in the region of the nile valley, and like as it is known that attempt wasn't succesful in any case.
the owners of the second theory believe that the temhu were african people that followed their road from the south west from the desert towards the north and the north easth.

---

quote:

---

III- historical and geografical data, supported by languistic data:

the topography of the central saharan region and the sort of the geologic stages that dates back to the the lethic ages: "the lethic and the neolethic ages", prove that the modern desert [the central desert] wasn't a desert in the antiquity. it was green with watery weather, and was covered by grasses. even, there grew many sort trees likes as the olive trees [...]. the many artworks (about 3000) in several places on the walls ... prove that there was a human variety, thus, two sort peoples [two races] that succeded each others in livng in the central desert. the first was black skinned. and he disappeared in the end of the the seventh millennium b.c. for any reason. and the second one was fair skinned, from the sixth millennium b.c. on, and he was mentione d with the tattoes on the corps of his members that were depicted in his period (Camps, I, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, H.J.Hugot, I, II)[...]

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posted 05 September 2005 10:42 AM            

quote:

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Bertholon* and Chantre (1913) noted non-Negroid and Negroid crania in neolithic Maghreban and Carthaginian graves, with the former predominating ( www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita_1990_northern_africa_1_.pdf )

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[*bertholon is the one who said that the ancient egyptians consisted two sorts of peoples, one of them was "black" and the other was "white" according to him, the white one was of libyan origin.]

posted 05 September 2005 12:01 PM            

Most of the Magrebian crania is not within the Sahara. The early Magrebian crania is usually labeled Metch-Afalou,Iber-Maurisan,and Capsian. Usually early anthropologist have labeled these remains as proto-Mediterranean[whatever this means].

Once again I find it hard believeing that ''black'' groups in the Sahara were replaced with lighter Berber types because still today in the Saharan oasis live black populations. The Central Sahara crania shows that sub-Saharan type African predominated and probably moved out of the Sahara into the Sahel or into the Nile Valley.

posted 05 September 2005 01:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
If the experts (like the archeoligist malika hachid who spent 20 years in the sahara) said there are, that means there are. it is not a question of interpretation. there are two cases: there are the evidences or those archeologists are liars (the libyan, the algerian, the moroccan and the frensh), what is not logical:

translated from the book of mohamed chafiq (hafriyyat fi allogha(h)).

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Mazigh, you'd have to do better than merely what archaeologists "say". Have they actually found any remains, let alone clear depictions??

Both remains and pictures show blacks in the Central Saharan region and no whites. Can you cite us an exact source of evidence?

posted 05 September 2005 05:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:

If the experts (like the archeoligist malika hachid who spent 20 years in the sahara) said there are, that means there are.

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Thought Writes:

ex·pert (kspûrt) KEY

NOUN:

A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

http://www.unm.edu/~murrellj/what_is_anthropologisttutorial.HTM

What is an Anthropologist?
What do they Do?

"There are four major types of anthropologists: socio-cultural, physical, linguistic and the archeologist. While these anthropologists frequently work together to answer the many questions of science, each has their area of expertise and tools that they use to work.

To understand what a socio-cultural anthropologist does you will need to imagine for a moment what would happen if you were suddenly transported to a very different culture in a different part of the world, and told you had to stay there for a year or more.

To begin with, you would probably feel somewhat bewildered, unable to understand the language spoken, eat the food without longing for home cooking, or enter someone's home without unwittingly doing something that appeared rude to your hosts. After a few months you would begin to understand how to avoid social pitfalls, and after a year you might even be able to speak the language with a certain degree of fluency. Gradually, mutual understanding and trust would develop and you would begin to experience the world through the other culture. This process of familiarisation is similar to the experience of many anthropologists who go abroad to study another culture. These researchers should not seek to control the behaviour of the people being studied, but rather immerse him or herself in the lives of the people they study as much as possible.

The socio-cultural anthropologist's approach to inquiry is very different to working in a laboratory where the physical anthropologist feels at home. This type of anthropologist seeks to determine clues about people from their bones and teeth. A biological or physical anthropologist might work in a laboratory on blood or bones samples; however, they could equally well work in different cultural contexts which require knowledge and sensitivity to local cultural norms and values. In understanding the cause of illness within a given population it is necessary to develop a detailed understanding of how physical contract and well-being are shaped by social and cultural factors. For example, it is not enough for a biological anthropologist to discover that a local diet results in deficiencies of vitamin A and therefore increases the possibility of blindness. They would also need to take into account the symbolic and ritual significance of certain foodstuffs before assuming that changes in diet could easily be effected.

Linguistic anthropologists study communication practices in present-day cultures around the globe. The most distinctive feature of humanity is the ability to speak. Language is the single thing that allows people the ability to preserve and transmit culture from generation to generation. Through the study of language, linguistic anthropologists are able to understand how people perceive themselves and the world around them.