posted 15 August 2005 09:41 PM            

The story of coastal west African Berbers from snippets:

"E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco, dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in acordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ~ 2 KY ago. The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 KY ago)..." - Luis et al. 2004

Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a protoAfro-Asiatic language. These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans. - Arredi et al. 2004

The relatively young TMRCA (mutation divergence date) of 5.6 ky that we estimated for haplography E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African heliotypes in the network of E-M81 support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia.
Cruciani et al. 2002

Arredi et al.
2004

"Thus, although Moroccan Y lineages were interpreted as having a predominantly Upper Paleolithic origin in East Africa (Bosch et al, 2001), according to our TMRCA estimates , NO populations within North African samples analyzed here have a substantial Paloelithic contribution."

Semino et al.
2004

“The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations…

...the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of the Middle East and in North Africa. In this regard, it is worth noting that the median expansion time of the J-M267-YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 clade was estimated to be 8.74.3 ky, by use of the TD approach (see fig. 4 legend), and that this clade includes the modal haplotype DYS19-14/DYS388-17/DYS390-23/DYS391-11/DYS392-11 of the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000) and of Moroccan Arabs (Bosch et al. 2001). These results are consistent with the proposal that this haplotype was diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century A.D., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002)…" -

Plaza et al.

The most prominent Moroccan Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 42.2%.

The most prominent Southern Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 32% and V at 10%.

Given these scientific results the following study by Achilli et al. 2004 is of interest. Haplogroups V and H seem to have spread together from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia after the LGM. Table 1 is of particular interest. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in Egyptian Berbers. It has a frequency of 51.9% in Basques and 46.9% in Northern Italians. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 19.9% in Iraq and 10.6% in Arabian Peninsula populations. This indicates that the predominate Berber mtDNA Haplogroups (H and V) did NOT spread from the Near East to NW Africa but from the Iberian peninsula and Europe straight to Africa. This information correspondes with the historical data of female derived slavery into NW Africa. http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Achilli2004.pdf

posted 16 August 2005 04:19 AM            

Also, you need to familiarize yourself with Madagascar populations, before jumping into conclusions:

Borneo and Africa
mongabay.com
July 8, 2005

Studies released earlier this year found the people of Madagascar have origins in Borneo and East Africa.

Half of the genetic lineages of human inhabitants of Madagascar come from 4500 miles away in Borneo, while the other half derive from East Africa, according to a study published in May by a UK team.

The island of Madagascar, the largest in the Indian Ocean, lies some 250 miles (400 km) from Africa and 4000 miles (6400 km) from Indonesia. Its isolation means that most of its mammals, half of its birds, and most of its plants exist nowhere else on earth. The new findings, published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, show that the human inhabitants of Madagascar are similarly unique - amazingly, half of their genetic lineages derive from settlers from the region of Borneo, with the other half from East Africa. Archaeological evidence suggests that this settlement was as recent as 1500 years ago - about the time the Saxons invaded Britain.

"The origins of the language spoken in Madagascar, Malagasy, suggested Indonesian connections, because its closest relative is the Maanyan language, spoken in southern Borneo," said Dr Matthew Hurles, of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute. "For the first time, we have been able to assign every genetic lineage in the Malagasy population to a likely geographic origin with a high degree of confidence."

"Malagasy peoples are a roughly 50:50 mix of two ancestral groups: Indonesians and East Africans. It is important to realise that these lineages have intermingled over intervening centuries since settlement, so modern Malagasy have ancestry in both Indonesia and Africa."

The team, from Cambridge, Oxford and Leicester, used two types of DNA marker to study DNA diversity: Y chromosomes, inherited only through males, and mitochondrial DNA, inherited only through females. They tested how similar the Malagasy were to populations around the Indian Ocean. The set of non-African Y chromosomes found in the Malagasy was much more similar to the set of lineages found in Borneo than in any other population, which demonstrates striking agreement between the genetic and linguistic evidence. Similarly, a 'Centre of Gravity' was estimated for every mitochondrial DNA to suggest a likely geographical origin for each. This entails calculating a geographical average of the locations of the best matches within a large database of mitochondrial lineages from around the world.

"The Centres of Gravity fell in the islands of southeast Asia or in sub-Saharan Africa," explained Dr Peter Forster, from the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge, one of the co-authors. "The evidence from these two independent bits of DNA supports the linguistic evidence in suggesting that a migrating population made their way 4500 miles across the Indian Ocean from Borneo."

The striking mix suggests that there was substantial migration of people from southeast Asia about 2000-1500 years ago - a mirror image of the migrations from that region into the Pacific, to Micronesia and Polynesia, that had occurred about 1000 years earlier. However, unlike the privations suffered by those eastward travellers, the data suggests the early Malagasy population survived the voyage well, because more genetic variation is found in them than is found in the islands of Polynesia. 'Bottlenecks' in evolutionary history, where the population is dramatically reduced in number, are a common cause of reduced genetic variation.

Even though the Africa coast is only one-twentieth of the distance to Indonesia, it appears that migrations from Africa may have been more limited, as less of the diversity seen in the source population has survived in Madagascar.

But why, if the population is a 50:50 mix, is the language almost exclusively derived from Indonesia?

"It is a very interesting question, for which we have as yet no certain answer, as to how the African contribution to Malagasy culture, evident in biology and in aspects of economic and material culture, was so largely erased in the realm of language," commented Professor Robert Dewar, of The McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge. "This research highlights the differing, and complementary, contributions of biology and linguistics to the understanding of prehistory."

The population structure in Madagascar is a fascinating snapshot of human history and a testament to the remarkable abilities of early populations to undertake migrations across vast reaches of ocean. It may also be important today for cutting edge medical science.

"There has recently been dramatic progress in the development of experimental and statistical methods appropriate for gene mapping in admixed populations," said David Goldstein, Wolfson Professor of Genetics, University College London. "To succeed, however, these methods depend on populations with well defined historical admixtures. This work shows provides compelling evidence that the Malagasy are such a population, and again shows the value of careful study of human population structure."

Our human history is a rich mix of peoples and their movement, of success and failure. Madagascar holds an enriching tale of the ability of humans to survive and to reach new lands.

This release originally appear at Human inhabitants of Madagascar are genetically unique

Publication details
The dual origin of the malagasy in island southeast Asia and East Africa: evidence from maternal and paternal lineages.
Hurles ME, Sykes BC, Jobling MA, Forster P

Am J Hum Genet. 2005;76;894-901. PMID: 15793703

posted 16 August 2005 11:05 AM            

My deducions is that a combination of back migration and capturing of Circassian, Greek and others during the Turks reign as they frequently used the Manluks as armies, and armies as they travelled contributed their genotype during the last 500 years Turkish henegomy in the Arab world.

posted 16 August 2005 11:16 AM            

http://www.proel.org/mundo/mozarabe.htm

posted 16 August 2005 12:35 PM            

Madagascar: Southeast Asian Y-Chromosomes and the population speaks a derivative of Melay.

Morrocco Berbers: East African Y-Chromosomes and the population speaks a derivative of Afra.

In Madagascar we have what appears to be either a founder group or population replacement on the male side. The same is true amongst the Berbers but to a greater extent.

posted 16 August 2005 06:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

In Madagascar we have what appears to be either a founder group or population replacement on the male side.

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If the former, then not the later, in which case this question.....

quote:

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What hasn't been actually answered is why in both cases.

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posted 17 August 2005 12:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Madagascar is a good example of what we see in Morrocco.

Madagascar: Southeast Asian Y-Chromosomes and the population speaks a derivative of Melay.

Morrocco Berbers: East African Y-Chromosomes and the population speaks a derivative of Afra.

In Madagascar we have what appears to be either a founder group or population replacement on the male side. The same is true amongst the Berbers but to a greater extent.

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You are mixing apples with oranges, and all this in the face of studies provided herein.

Judging from your repetition of the above, it would appear that you didn't at least take the time to read the content of that Madagascar study/article provided earlier, and then, you wonder why your questions haven't been answered!

And yet again, Madagascar populations have a 50:50 mix of male populations with ancestors from both southeast Asia and east Africa. READ...yet another study!...

Am J Hum Genet. 2005 May

The dual origin of the Malagasy in Island Southeast Asia and East Africa: evidence from maternal and paternal lineages.

Hurles ME, Sykes BC, Jobling MA, Forster P.

Linguistic and archaeological evidence about the origins of the Malagasy, the indigenous peoples of Madagascar, points to mixed African and Indonesian ancestry. By contrast, genetic evidence about the origins of the Malagasy has hitherto remained partial and imprecise. We defined 26 Y-chromosomal lineages by typing 44 Y-chromosomal polymorphisms in 362 males from four different ethnic groups from Madagascar and 10 potential ancestral populations in Island Southeast Asia and the Pacific. We also compared mitochondrial sequence diversity in the Malagasy with a manually curated database of 19,371 hypervariable segment I sequences, incorporating both published and unpublished data. We could attribute every maternal and paternal lineage found in the Malagasy to a likely geographic origin.

*Here, we demonstrate approximately equal African and Indonesian contributions to both **paternal** and **maternal** Malagasy lineages.

The most likely origin of the Asia-derived paternal lineages found in the Malagasy is Borneo. This agrees strikingly with the linguistic evidence that the languages spoken around the Barito River in southern Borneo are the closest extant relatives of Malagasy languages. As a result of their equally balanced admixed ancestry, the Malagasy may represent an ideal population in which to identify loci underlying complex traits of both anthropological and medical interest.

Link to the http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15793703&dopt=Citation]source !

Madagascar populations have show similar frequencies of Southeast Asian and East African paternal lineages.

...which contrasts with this claim of yours:

"In Madagascar we have what appears to be either a founder group or population replacement on the male side."

How can you insist on such a thing, in light of the above?

Whereas in the Berbers, the paternal lineages are **predominantly** East African, followed by Asian paternal lineages (mainly from the Arab invasions).

How does this situation resemble the 50:50 mix of Madagascar male lineages?

Moreover, Berber maternal lineages vary from region to region, a fact I would have thought you would be familiar with by now. In the case of the northwestern coastal Berbers, maternal European lineages are predominant; this isn't the case with the Saharan Berbers like Tauregs. Again, how do these situations resemble the 50:50 mix of Madagascar maternal lineages from southeast Asia and from sub-Saharn East Africa?

Moreover, do you believe that East African migrants 'replaced' a European male population in Northwest Africa?

What however is interesting about the Madagascar population, was pointed out earlier:

"But why, if the population is a 50:50 mix, is the language almost exclusively derived from Indonesia?"

posted 17 August 2005 12:08 PM            

It also clearly evident that this is indeed the case:

That does indeed mean that there was no population replacement. We have a founder group of Southeast Asians.

posted 17 August 2005 12:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by yazid904:
osiron,

My deducions is that a combination of back migration and capturing of Circassian, Greek and others during the Turks reign as they frequently used the Manluks as armies, and armies as they travelled contributed their genotype during the last 500 years Turkish henegomy in the Arab world.

I am also stating different dynasties (Persian and Turk) brought their allies (Uzbek, Mongols, etc) and as proxies in different location carried out the mandate of vizier (shahishah, etc). My context is social and as armies do, they leave their offspring and go to the next location where they are sent!
That specific gentic contribution may have lasted 1 or 2 generations but with interethnic 'hybridization' the result you initially observed seems to be such.

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Mamelukes were White slave soldiers and the Turks would have had a great deal of European Y-Chromosomes (R1a). There genetic input in Berbers is almost non-existent as a consequence. So I am not following your point at all.

Simply, if coastal Berbers are European in origin like their maternal side suggests, why is the language and paternal lineage East African?

Conversly, if East Africans were the founder group wouldn't they have migrated in family clans? Consequently their women would have migrated with them but this appears to not be the case. Either the women were imported into Northwest Africa via raids, enslavement, etc or they were already there. If they were already there then so were European males in which case we have competition between males that favored the East African genome.

Military practice of old: kill all the men and rape the women.