posted 10 August 2005 05:32 AM            

This is the same study Erroneous E keeps using to say Y-chromosone equate with phenotype. I have the full text and will now post it in the yahoo group for everyone to view. One thing to ntoe about this study: The authors conclude that R lineages are most acquainted with light skinned Caucasians and equate E3b, J and G lineages with dark-skinned Caucasians along with E3a. I wonder what Erroneous e thinks of this?

posted 10 August 2005 10:12 AM            

Much definition is needed since our environmental social constructs are different.

For one European history and American history are like night and day. I have no idea what a dark skinned Caucasian is but American influenced history tells me Hindus and some dark skinned Arabs are known to be such while knowing when they become terroist, that title of Caucasian is taken from them are they revert to the n*word of its many variations. New n* as it were!

I know Caucasian to be the peopel of the Caucasus area but they are minorities.

I know the area is homogenous enough to be considered a 'cradle' because they were no know African and Asiatic presence (modern day thought) so for the people of the day (Coon/Goebells, etc that was a source of origin, real or imaginery.

There may be some truth just like saying all Arabs are terrorists (some are) in the same vein as R lineage is equated with light skinned Caucasian while J&G are dark skinned! I have known mixed heritage with blue green eyes (my own childern) while some officially recognized Caucasians with brown eyes.

posted 10 August 2005 10:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
This is the same study Erroneous E keeps using to say Y-chromosone equate with phenotype. I have the full text and will now post it in the yahoo group for everyone to view. One thing to note about this study: The authors conclude that R lineages are most acquainted with light skinned Caucasians and equate E3b, J and G lineages with dark-skinned Caucasians along with E3a. I wonder what Erroneous e thinks of this?

---

Has he ever presented anything that does not directly contradict his laughable views?

He is simply not intelligent enough to understand the self defeating nature of his argument.

posted 11 August 2005 07:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
The authors conclude that R lineages are most acquainted with light skinned Caucasians and equate E3b, J and G lineages with dark-skinned Caucasians along with E3a.

---

posted 11 August 2005 10:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Huh? E3a is not associated with Caucasoids of any sort. You're obviously misreading something. Post the passage so we can see what the authors really say. If they're indeed grouping E3b with J and G as Caucasoid-affiliated, then that would confirm everything I've been saying.

---

"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe. However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the
E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance."

Interpret that Erroneous E.

posted 11 August 2005 11:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:

"EA2 [Mediterranean and south-eastern European] shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2"

"However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of E3a.....suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance."

Interpret that Erroneous E.

---

posted 11 August 2005 11:36 AM            

* suggesting affiliations which are not credible. - Howells

quote:

---

Top Dog posts:
What does all of this mean dumb Euro?

---

posted 11 August 2005 03:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:

"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe. However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the
E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance."

Interpret that Erroneous E.

---

That the inability to read is a known trademark of ginney pussy, is no news. For instance, the implications of the following were lost on ginney pussy:

Sanchez et al., 2005:

"The time of the eastbound Bantu expansion was expected to be 3400+/- 1100 years ago. Bantu populations have high frequencies of E3a haplogroups. 4 We have observed only a few individuals with the E3a haplogroups in our Somali population, thus, supporting the view that the Bantu migration did not reach Somalia."

It has been suggested that a barrier against gene flow exist in the region. The barrier seems to be Cushitic languages and cultures to which Somalis belongs. The Cushitic languages belong to the Afro-Asiatic languages that are spoken in Northern and Eastern Africa. The Cushitic languages and cultures are mainly found in the Somalis and the Oromos, one of the two main groups inhabiting Ethiopia. 44-46 The Somalis and Oromos have a high degree of similarity and the two populations share many cultural characteristics . The Somali and Oromo people live in clans with special patterns of marriage and Somali and Oromo have complex, interwoven pedigrees. 44, 45..."

And…

"Cruciani et al suggested that E3b1 cluster lineages originated in East Africa and estimated that the TMRCA was approximately 9600 years. We estimated that the E3b1 cluster DYS392-12 lineages of the present Somali population sample originated 4000-5000 years ago, and that the expansion of E3b1 cluster DYS392-12 lineages in these Somalis involved a relatively small Y chromosomes (around 1000 males)."

And what does Cruciani et al say about E3b lineages?..

"...Recently, it has been proposed that **E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa** and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001)”- Cruciani et al.

And what does Sanchez et al 2005 acknowledge?...

Although the Horn of Africa is considered a geographic part of sub-Saharan Africa, we have analysed the Somali population separately in order to be able to compare the results with previously published data from other African populations.

Now, let's keep in mind that borderline Europeans carry substantial amounts of sub-Saharan tropical African E3b lineages, for which the Greeks provide a pristine example:

Greek
E3b 22.4%, I 7.9%, J 21%, R1b 27%, R1a 11%

It can then be concluded that Greeks, in the context of their 22% sub-Saharan lineages, are much closer to sub-Saharan Black Africans, than they are to de-pigmented northern Europeans, who have very little to near absent amounts of these recent Black African lineages. The same applies with west Asians who carry these recent sub-Saharan lineages; they are obviously related to sub-Saharan Black Africans, due to the fact.

Another demonstration:

An outlier European who carries E3b1 is naturally going to be more closer to an E3b1 Black African, than an E3a Black African,well...because, we are talking about E3b1. But this has no bearings on the very close bond b/n E3a and E3b, than they are to any other haplogroup.

Also it can be said that since outlier Europeans, e.g., Greeks, carry these lineages, they are closer to E3a carrying sub-Saharan Black Africans, than Europeans who carry R1b lineages, as demonstrated by the following:

quote:

---

E3a --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, [E3A]

E3b --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35, [E3b]

Contrast with European R1b:
R1B --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173. P25

---

posted 11 August 2005 10:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
* resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes [E3A/E3b] and a Caucasian appearance. - Wetton

* suggesting affiliations which are not credible. - Howells

---

More refutation of Stupid-E!!

There are "caucasian" looking people that carry E3a, what does this mean??

It means that they have West African ancestry, but that doesn't mean they have to look West African!! The same argument is made in regards to E3b.

Sorry Dumb mutt, sex chromosomes DON'T correlate with phenotype!!

posted 11 August 2005 10:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
This is the same study Erroneous E keeps using to say Y-chromosone equate with phenotype. I have the full text and will now post it in the yahoo group for everyone to view.

---

What do you expect from the master distorter himself?!! He will only quote partially to hide the rest that refutes him...

The lying son-of-a-b****. His ancestors were not the cromagnon cavemen but the dogs of the cavemen!!

posted 12 August 2005 07:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
Interpret that Erroneous E.

---

There's nothing to interpret. It's spelled out plain as day. E3b is related to J and G in that it denotes Caucasoid ancestry from the region of North Africa and the Middle East, and not Sub-Saharan Africa:

"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. [...] the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G"

And of course, the presence of E3a among UK natives is easily explained by "recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans", confirming that that haplogroup, unlike E3b, denotes Negroid ancestry from Sub-Saharan Africa. If it were present at significant levels in the population (say, 50%+), it would manifest itself phenotypically.

posted 12 August 2005 08:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
He will only quote partially to hide the rest that refutes him...

The lying son-of-a-b****. His ancestors were not the cromagnon cavemen but the dogs of the cavemen!!

---

Evidently HE thinks so. He can run, but he CAN'T hide.

posted 12 August 2005 09:24 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
In reference, it is better to compare Northern European (NE)with Southern Europe and observe the frequency with Eab*. If absent in N. Europe and present in S. Europe (frequency) then it would be sensible to conclude the genotype is due to recent 'drift'(immigration).

---

The case is simply as follows -

the above referenced study associates a population Group ea2 with the phenotypes of darker southern European groups mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas.

This population has, among many other mixtures - Sub saharan East and West African E3b and E3a.

E3b reflects African admixture primarily from the neolithic and middle ages, E3a likely reflect more recent admixtures up to and including the present time. Both are present in the group 2 southern European population.

Ironically, said European population has more west African E3a lneages than the Oromo of East Africa.

Again, nice work TopDog.

posted 12 August 2005 09:54 AM            

Note: EA1 denotes pale-skinned 'Caucasians'

"Diversity was low in the EA1 database, comprised almost entirely of individuals
with paternal grandfathers born within the UK or Ireland. Two haplogroups of European origin predominated; R1b which is believed to have been the major haplogroup amongst the Palaeolithic colonizers of Europe and attains its highest frequency in the west of Europe and haplogroup I which spread across Europe from southern European glacial
refugia after the last glacial maximum [21]. Other low frequency haplotypes such as E3b, J2, G, and other R subclades may have spread from the Middle East in the
Neolithic and show an increasing frequency towards southeastern Europe"

Thus, the more E3b, J2 and G the darker a person becomes in Europe and the igher R1b and I the more 'pale-skinned one becomes. I believe this is what Thought was hinting at sometime ago. E3b, and J2 are non-European where as R1b and I are European. Greeks have higher levels of E3b and J2 than Western Europeans, thus are darker and gentically less 'European' than *REAL* Europeans who have predominant R1b and I lineages. The more one travels southeast in Europe the less genetically 'European' they become.

posted 12 August 2005 01:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
The study equates higher frequencies of E3b, J2 and G with dark-skinned "Caucasians" and higher frequencies of R1b and I with pale-skinned "Caucasians".

Note: EA1 denotes pale-skinned 'Caucasians'

"Diversity was low in the EA1 database, comprised almost entirely of individuals
with paternal grandfathers born within the UK or Ireland. Two haplogroups of European origin predominated; R1b which is believed to have been the major haplogroup amongst the Palaeolithic colonizers of Europe and attains its highest frequency in the west of Europe and haplogroup I which spread across Europe from southern European glacial
refugia after the last glacial maximum [21]. Other low frequency haplotypes such as E3b, J2, G, and other R subclades may have spread from the Middle East in the
Neolithic and show an increasing frequency towards southeastern Europe"

Thus, the more E3b, J2 and G the darker a person becomes in Europe and the igher R1b and I the more 'pale-skinned one becomes. I believe this is what Thought was hinting at sometime ago. E3b, and J2 are non-European where as R1b and I are European. Greeks have higher levels of E3b and J2 than Western Europeans, thus are darker and gentically less 'European' than *REAL* Europeans who have predominant R1b and I lineages. The more one travels southeast in Europe the less genetically 'European' they become.

---

When someone can read, it becomes pretty clear what the author is saying here.

In any case, there is no way around this:

An outlier European who carries E3b1 is naturally going to be more closer to an E3b1 Black African, than an E3a Black African,well...because, we are talking about E3b1. But this has no bearings on the very close bond b/n E3a and E3b, than they are to any other haplogroup.

Also it can be said that since outlier Europeans, e.g., Greeks, carry these lineages, they are closer to E3a carrying sub-Saharan Black Africans, than Europeans who carry R1b lineages, as demonstrated by the following:

Rasol earlier posted:
E3a --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, [E3A]

E3b --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35, [E3b]

Contrast with European R1b:
R1B --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89,[b] M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173. P25

We might as well include R1a:

R1a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M213, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173, SRY10831.1 http://lakeathens.com/DNA/Y-DNA-Haplogroups.htm

posted 12 August 2005 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
When someone can read, it becomes pretty clear what the author is saying here.

In any case, there is no way around this:

An outlier European who carries E3b1 is naturally going to be more closer to an E3b1 Black African, than an E3a Black African,well...because, we are talking about E3b1. But this has no bearings on the very close bond b/n E3a and E3b, than they are to any other haplogroup.

Also it can be said that since outlier Europeans, e.g., Greeks, carry these lineages, they are closer to E3a carrying sub-Saharan Black Africans, than Europeans who carry R1b lineages, as demonstrated by the following:

Rasol earlier posted:
E3a --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, [b]M2, [E3A]

E3b --- SRY10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35, [E3b]

Contrast with European R1b:
R1B --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173. P25

We might as well include R1a:

R1a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M213, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173, SRY10831.1 http://lakeathens.com/DNA/Y-DNA-Haplogroups.htm

If those polymorphisms above show R1a or R1b closer to E3b than its sister clade E3a, then perhaps, pigs do fly.

---

Very well said!

posted 12 August 2005 05:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
The study equates higher frequencies of E3b, J2 and G with dark-skinned "Caucasians" and higher frequencies of R1b and I with pale-skinned "Caucasians".

Note: EA1 denotes pale-skinned 'Caucasians'

"Diversity was low in the EA1 database, comprised almost entirely of individuals
with paternal grandfathers born within the UK or Ireland. Two haplogroups of European origin predominated; R1b which is believed to have been the major haplogroup amongst the Palaeolithic colonizers of Europe and attains its highest frequency in the west of Europe and haplogroup I which spread across Europe from southern European glacial
refugia after the last glacial maximum [21]. Other low frequency haplotypes such as E3b, J2, G, and other R subclades may have spread from the Middle East in the
Neolithic and show an increasing frequency towards southeastern Europe"

Thus, the more E3b, J2 and G the darker a person becomes in Europe and the igher R1b and I the more 'pale-skinned one becomes. I believe this is what Thought was hinting at sometime ago. E3b, and J2 are non-European where as R1b and I are European. Greeks have higher levels of E3b and J2 than Western Europeans, thus are darker and gentically less 'European' than *REAL* Europeans who have predominant R1b and I lineages. The more one travels southeast in Europe the less genetically 'European' they become.

---

What they've really done is divide Europeans into two distinct groups.

* A northern group which is very pale and has little to no African Admixture.

* A southern group which is darker and has more African admixture.

It's not surprising really, but the Nordacists will likely eat this up.

posted 12 August 2005 08:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
What they've really done is divide Europeans into two distinct groups.

* A northern group which is very pale and has little to no African Admixture.

* A southern group which is darker and has more African admixture.

It's not surprising really, but the Nordacists will likely eat this up.

---

I could swear this guy is from the Middle East: Domenick DeGiorgio, a former HVB Group banker who pleaded guilty in a case concerning big financial frauds.
But definitely not European.

posted 13 August 2005 08:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
The study equates higher frequencies of E3b, J2 and G with dark-skinned "Caucasians" and higher frequencies of R1b and I with pale-skinned "Caucasians".

---

Key word: Caucasians. Their adapted and shifting skin tones are irrelevant to the point at hand -- i.e. the association of E3b with the same Mid-Eastern/North African ancestry that J and G are associated with (Caucasoid), and not with the Sub-Saharan ancestry that E3a denotes (Negroid).

quote:

---

Greeks have higher levels of E3b and J2 than Western Europeans, thus are darker and gentically less 'European' than *REAL* Europeans who have predominant R1b and I lineages.

---

The only problem with that theory is that Spaniards have much less E3b and J than Greeks (~15% vs. ~50%) -- nearly matching Brits in levels of R1b and I -- yet in appearance they're virtually identical to Greeks (possibly even darker and definitely more Mediterranean).

posted 13 August 2005 08:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
I could swear this guy is from the Middle East: Domenick DeGiorgio

---

posted 13 August 2005 09:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
But unmistakably Caucasoid: narrow projecting nose, thin lips, no prognathism, deep eye sockets, wavy hair, bushy eyebrows. The fact that he has a tan is immaterial.

---

You are so predictable...his big nose just show how mixed he is if you use an Eastern Elongated African standard...you probably won't understandt if I say that this dude looks mixed based on his features:squared jaws, small forehead, strong body,flattish nose....they all look like a bunch of mixed up dudes.
.

Anyway just live in your fantasy world.

posted 13 August 2005 09:43 AM            

What is more to the point is that the study in the parent post divides Europeans into two groups, one of which is heterogeneous and the other homogeneous.

Diversity was low in the EA1 database - Wetton

Diversity is lower in Ea1 [northwest europe] and higher in Ea2 [southern europe].

Why is that?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:

L. Angel:

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably **from Nubia** via the predecessors of the Badarians and Tasians.…".

Or this, from yet another observer:

The caves of Erg-el-Ahmar......produced 132 individuals for Miss Garrod. All these Natufians share the same physical type, completely different from that of earlier Palestinians. They are short, about 160 cm. and dolichocephalic. They were probably Cro-Magnoid Mediterraneans, presenting certain Negroid characteristics attributable to crossbreeding... - Courtesy of Raymond Furon.
Thought Writes:

And of course the skeletal data Angel presented and the genetic data Underhill, Luis, Crucianni and Sanchez have recently presented are supported by the archaeological data of Ofer Bar-Yosef:

Pleistocene connexions between Africa and Southwest Asia: an archaeological perspective

The African Archaeological Review
5(1987) pg 29-38

"An abrubt climatic change around 13,000 - 12,500 B.P. caused considerable shifts in territories and the emergence of the Natufian culture; this was the result of population pressure and the need to re-orient adaptive strategies. The presence of the Mushabian in the deserts around the Mediterranean Levant may have been a prime factor in creating this situation. Thus the population overflow FROM Northeast Africa played a definite role in the establishment of the natufian adaptation, which in turn led to the emergence of agriculture as a new subsistence system."

---

posted 13 August 2005 09:59 AM            

Spain as you know is not homogenous but it has retained its 'heterogeneity" based on the provinces since at least 711. Location of sample taking will affect results in that Galicia (North) has more Celtic strains, the Basques their unique 'isolationist' gene pool, Catalonia with its 'French' background (antiquity?) and the South, the usual pool of samples.

posted 13 August 2005 10:35 AM            

The pictures speak for themselves...but you can have your own opinion...and I will take it into consideration.
Relaxx

posted 13 August 2005 11:54 AM            

* I don't think you want to atempt to relate 'bantu' a language groiup to a phenotype.

* One of the reasons 'argument by pictures' alone is ineffective is because it is inherently subjective, selective and easily contradicted.

For example: for every picture spam awale posts attempting to de-africanise the somali, it is easy to post pictures of the blackest, curly haired African Somali you can imagine. This is why awales anti-intelligent approach to 'argument' is always self defeating....unless one chooses play along with it, then it insults your intelligence as well as his.

* Specifically: Unless we can show a specific relationship based upon peer reviewed anthropology of "bantu" and "southern european" phenotypes, then we shouldn't say europeans look like proto-bantu.

No offense. It's because you are so much more intelligent than the likes of Erroneous and Awale that I hate to see you 'stoop' to anywhere near their level.

peace.

posted 13 August 2005 11:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
Euro,

Spain as you know is not homogenous but it has retained its 'heterogeneity" based on the provinces since at least 711.

---

Speaking of Spain, here is an interesting study that shows both the sustained heterogeneity of Spain, and the fallacy of 'racially stereo-typing' skulls:

All of the crania in this Spanish sample originated from a 16th to 17th-century community associated with a church in northwestern Spain. Although specific information on the ancestry of any particular individual in the sample is not available, generally all individuals should be considered examples of this group.

Table 3 presents the race classification of all individuals in this sample using the Forensic Data Bank option. Of the 95 individuals, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese. The 95 individuals classified into 21 different groups from 15 different countries of Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas.

This is the infamous Howells skull classication program Fordisc.

posted 13 August 2005 12:40 PM            

quote:

---

rasol said:
No offense. It's because you are so much more intelligent than the likes of Erroneous and Awale that I hate to see you 'stoop' to anywhere near their level.

---

posted 13 August 2005 12:47 PM            

Morocco has almost the same amount of E3b as somalia.

posted 13 August 2005 01:09 PM            

quote:

---

Morocco has almost the same amount of E3b as somalia.
How comes the skin shade differs to somalians?

---

Y chromosome denotes paternity and does not cause skin color[autosomal and polygenic].

The Somali are predominently East African paternally and maternally.

Moroccan Berber combine East African male lineages with European female lineages, see:
Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in....Egyptian Berbers".

The key point is to understand that it is not that East Africans get their male lineages from NorthWest Africans....but that NorthWest African male lineages come from East Africa.

In order to understand why and how, we need to begin by understanding that Berber language originates in East Africa, and that Berber male populations migrated into the Maghreb in the Neolithic, all discussed in depth, here:

E3b2 arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing FEW HUMANS.

posted 13 August 2005 02:58 PM            

quote:

---

rasol said:
The Somali are predominently East African paternally and maternally.

---

Common Sence...I would have thought.

posted 13 August 2005 03:06 PM            

if you study the map you would notice places like Greece and italy also share certain amount of E3b.

Does this mean that they also share lineages with East Africa?

posted 13 August 2005 03:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
Does this mean that they also share lineages with East Africa?

---

Yes. 23 percent of Greek male lineages are of East African origin.

As Supercar correctly noted this repeats facts that have been related over and again on this forum for at least a year now.

posted 13 August 2005 07:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Relaxx: Then, with respect, I'll offer you some other opinions as well:

* I don't think you want to atempt to relate 'bantu' a language groiup to a phenotype.

* One of the reasons 'argument by pictures' alone is ineffective is because it is inherently subjective, selective and easily contradicted.

For example: for every picture spam awale posts attempting to de-africanise the somali, it is easy to post pictures of the blackest, curly haired African Somali you can imagine. This is why awales anti-intelligent approach to 'argument' is always self defeating....unless one chooses play along with it, then it insults your intelligence as well as his.

* Specifically: Unless we can show a specific relationship based upon peer reviewed anthropology of "bantu" and "southern european" phenotypes, then we shouldn't say europeans look like proto-bantu.

No offense. It's because you are so much more intelligent than the likes of Erroneous and Awale that I hate to see you 'stoop' to anywhere near their level.

peace.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 13 August 2005).]

---

You're correct, I don't have any data, everything I said was based on personal observations and some other African observations...I'm not the only one who noticed some physical similarities between some African farmers and Eurasians...But you're right scientifically genuine observations are not valid...
Relaxx

posted 13 August 2005 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
...But you're right scientifically genuine observations are not valid...
Relaxx

---

posted 14 August 2005 07:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
What is more to the point is that the study in the parent post divides Europeans into two groups, one of which is heterogeneous and the other homogeneous.

---

Nope. The point is that R1b, I, J2, G and E3b are all Caucasoid-affiliated.

quote:

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"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably **from Nubia** via the predecessors of the Badarians and Tasians.…".

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If Angel's "negroid nose and mouth traits" represent black racial admixture, then where are the other Negroid traits? Where's the Negroid hair type, skull shape, skeletal form, pigmentation etc.? Funny how these Nomadic Neolithic Niggas transmitted only two of their traits to the Levantines and Greeks. Funny also that in his more detailed analyses, Angel makes no mention of a Negroid racial strain in either Neolithic farmers or modern Greeks. Neither does Coon for that matter. Nor Brace. Any answers, Negroes?

And while we're on the subject . . .

Do you accept Underhill's statement that "There are no known genes on the Y that dictate bone morphology", or do you continue to maintain that so-called "negroid traits" in Levantines and Greeks are the result of their E3b Y-chromosomes?

quote:

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One of the reasons 'argument by pictures' alone is ineffective is because it is inherently subjective, selective and easily contradicted. [...] It's because you are so much more intelligent than the likes of Erroneous and Awale that I hate to see you 'stoop' to anywhere near their level.

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You mean like you do when you post the 1/4 Jewish, Caucasoid Pete Sampras as evidence that Greeks are "Black"?

quote:

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for every picture spam awale posts attempting to de-africanise the somali, it is easy to post pictures of the blackest, curly haired African Somali you can imagine.

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Exactly, attesting to the hybrid status of Somalis:

quote:

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Speaking of Spain, here is an interesting study that shows both the sustained heterogeneity of Spain, and the fallacy of 'racially stereo-typing' skulls: [...] This is the infamous Howells skull classication program Fordisc.

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We've already been over this, you dumb, dishonest ape. That study only used about 1/3 of Howells' data set, so of course its results were off. Indeed, false classifications derived using Fordisc are all due to human error, and not to anything inherent in the program. But your desperation to discredit Howells has been duly noted.

quote:

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Moroccan Berber combine East African male lineages with European female lineages, see:
Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in....Egyptian Berbers".

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Irrelevant. They could have 100% H mtDNA, and it wouldn't change the fact that they're almost half "Black" (according to Afronuts). So why don't they look it? Hmmm?

quote:

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Berber language originates in East Africa

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The proto-Afro-Asiatic language was introduced into North Africa by Neolithic farmers from the Middle East:

posted 14 August 2005 09:41 AM            

resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes [E3A/E3b] and a Caucasian appearance. - Wetton
The Spanish from Huelva carry West African E3a at a frequency of 4.5% and Malaga carry it at a frequency of 3.8%
per,Calos Flores et al, European Journal of Genetics, 2004.

Limitations of Howells/fordisc program:

Of the 95 Spanish individuals studied, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese. The 95 individuals classified into 21 different groups from 15 different countries of Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas.

The difference between correlation and cause:

suggesting affiliations which are not credible. - Howells

East African origins of Berber languages:

The speakers of the earliest Afrasan languages, were a set of peoples whose lands stretched from Nubia in the West to far northern Somalia in the east

Inability of Erroneous/Albino monkey to think:

Top Dog posts: What does all of this mean dumb Euro?

posted 14 August 2005 11:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
African ancestry in Southern Europe:

resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes [E3A/E3b] and a Caucasian appearance. - Wetton
The Spanish from Huelva carry West African E3a at a frequency of 4.5% and Malaga carry it at a frequency of 3.8%
per,Calos Flores et al, European Journal of Genetics, 2004.

Limitations of Howells/fordisc program:

Of the 95 Spanish individuals studied, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese. The 95 individuals classified into 21 different groups from 15 different countries of Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas.

The difference between correlation and cause:

suggesting affiliations which are not credible. - Howells

East African origins of Berber languages:

The speakers of the earliest Afrasan languages, were a set of peoples whose lands stretched from Nubia in the West to far northern Somalia in the east

Inability of Erroneous/Albino monkey to think:

Top Dog posts: What does all of this mean dumb Euro?

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Hitting the nail right on the head as usual. If only that nail would go into that empty vessel of ginney pussy.

The following must truly have ginney pussy bedazzled, for it has no answers:

"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe. However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the
E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance."

posted 15 August 2005 07:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes [E3A/E3b] and a Caucasian appearance. - Wetton

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Again, no. Wetton only uses that qualifier in reference to E3a, because it's normally associated with a Negroid appearance (when found at higher levels than 7%). In reference to E3b he maintains (with no qualifier) that it's normally associated with the same Caucasoid appearance that J and G are associated with.

quote:

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The Spanish from Huelva carry West African E3a at a frequency of 4.5% and Malaga carry it at a frequency of 3.8%

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Two E3a markers were observed in two regions with respective sample sizes of 22 and 26. The total frequency of E3a in Spain = 0.4% (2/475). Of course, Spaniards are as European as Germans, Frenchmen and Britons:

quote:

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Limitations of Howells/fordisc program:

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Nigger, do you have trouble understanding English? Or are you just dumb like the rest of your kinsmen?

We've already been over this, you dumb, dishonest ape. That study only used about 1/3 of Howells' data set, so of course its results were off. Indeed, false classifications derived using Fordisc are all due to human error, and not to anything inherent in the program. But your desperation to discredit Howells has been duly noted.

quote:

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Originally posted by Super coon:
The following must truly have ginney pussy bedazzled, for it has no answers:

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Another nigger who can't read.

And of course, the presence of E3a among UK natives is easily explained by "recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans", confirming that that haplogroup, unlike E3b, denotes Negroid ancestry from Sub-Saharan Africa. If it were present at significant levels in the population (say, 50%+), it would manifest itself phenotypically.

posted 15 August 2005 08:17 AM            

quote:

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SuperCar writes: The following must truly have ginney pussy bedazzled, for it has no answers:

"Indeed the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina display European specific haplogroups that most likely arose in *different glacial refuge* areas of Europe (*I-M170, R-M17 and R-M269* from Balkan, Ukrainian and Franco-Cantabrian refuges, respectively), and haplogroups considered to have originated in Africa *(E)* and the Middle East (J)..."

Source: The Peopling of Modern Bosnia-Herzegovina: Y-chromosome Haplogroups in the Three Main Ethnic Groups, D. Marjanovic et al.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
African ancestry in Southern Europe:

resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes [E3A/E3b] and a Caucasian appearance. - Wetton
The Spanish from Huelva carry West African E3a at a frequency of 4.5% and Malaga carry it at a frequency of 3.8%
per,Calos Flores et al, European Journal of Genetics, 2004.

Limitations of Howells/fordisc program:

Of the 95 Spanish individuals studied, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese. The 95 individuals classified into 21 different groups from 15 different countries of Australia, Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas.

The difference between correlation and cause:

suggesting affiliations which are not credible. - Howells

East African origins of Berber languages:

The speakers of the earliest Afrasan languages, were a set of peoples whose lands stretched from Nubia in the West to far northern Somalia in the east

"Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in....Egyptian Berbers".

Inability of Erroneous/Albino monkey to think:

Top Dog posts: What does all of this mean dumb Euro?

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posted 15 August 2005 01:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by COBRA:
Rasol...

if you study the map you would notice places like Greece and italy also share certain amount of E3b.

Does this mean that they also share lineages with East Africa?

And could you give me the same amount of detail as previous.

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Where have you been or what the hell have you been reading? Good grief, 90% of all the threads going back and forth between Rasol and EvilE have been over the subject of E3b and its presence in SouthEast Europe and whether or not this denotes admixture amongst the Greeks.

EvilE got knocked down over E3a being correlated with Caucasian appearance. He got back up in the usual slick dick way. Now pay attention and watch the undulations.

This is entertaining! Just to clarify things: E3a was clearly associated with a Caucasian appearance amongst UK people in the articles presented. No way of getting out of that EvilE. Basically E3a can be mistakenly associated with Caucasians just like E3b is.

posted 15 August 2005 01:11 PM            

quote:

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Essentially the Bantu would be Caucasoid as well? What are the implications of E3a being a Caucasoid marker?

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Y chromosomes do not have races.

posted 15 August 2005 01:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
The following must truly have ginney pussy bedazzled, for it has no answers:

---

A uniquely illiterate ginney pussy who chooses to replace authentic words (it can’t read in the first place) with wop scribble, thinks this :

"EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe.

However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the **E3a sub-Saharan African haplography** that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, **resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance.**”

resembles its own wop (NOT the authors of the study) scribble:

And of course, the presence of E3a among UK natives is easily explained by "recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans", confirming that that haplogroup, unlike E3b, denotes Negroid ancestry from Sub-Saharan Africa. If it were present at significant levels in the population (say, 50%+), it would manifest itself phenotypically.

Judging from the above, it can be concluded that, that study truly has the ailing pussy bedazzled!

posted 15 August 2005 01:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
[b]Y chromosomes do not have races.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 August 2005).][/B]

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I understand that but then why are you involved in a debate that is about racial admixure of Greeks?

posted 15 August 2005 01:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
I understand that

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quote:

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why are you involved in a debate that is about racial admixure of Greeks?

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Second, and more importantly: What should matter to you is that you understand the facts, regardless of what others are 'involved' in.

posted 15 August 2005 02:10 PM            

EA2 is expected to denote individuals with ancestry mainly in the Mediterranean and south-eastern European areas. Compared with the EA1 dataset the EA2 population shows higher frequencies of haplogroups with North African and Middle Eastern origins such as E3b, J2, and G along with those that have spread from further east in Asia such as L and H; these haplogroups are characteristic of south-eastern Europe.

However, the frequent occurrence (7%) of the E3a sub-Saharan African haplogroup that has previously been shown to be virtually absent from the indigenous UK and European populations [23,24] suggests recent admixture with Afro-Caribbeans in the UK, resulting in an association between African Y chromosomes and a Caucasian appearance."

Interpretation:

First we have a statement that suggest that E3b is associated with a Caucasian appearance. The author then actually undermines that point by providing conflicting evidence (the however) that states that E3a can be found at a frequency of 7% amongst the UK. This illustrates that even though a person has 7% sub-Saharan genes they can still appear Caucasian. The point the author is trying to make is that we should not associate the Y-chormosome with phenotypes or at least that good arguably good reasons why one should not.

posted 15 August 2005 02:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
[b]Y chromosomes do not have races.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion:
I understand that

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quote:

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why are you involved in a debate that is about racial admixure of Greeks?

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Second, and more importantly: What should matter to you is that you understand the facts, regardless of what others are 'involved' in.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 August 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I interpreted the article incorrectly based on responses. I see how the acticle actually supports your point of not associating the Y-chromosomes with phenotype.