posted 25 June 2005 01:23 AM            

From a genetic point of view, regardless of what race you call Egyptians, they were not Asiatic people like the Hebrews, Iranians, Slavs or Indo-Europeans (Caucasians). Genetically the best example of a non-mixed version of E3b are the Borana people of Kenya. It is also interesting to note that the Borana have the same facial features as that of AE deptiction.

So let me clarify a few facts. People from the Caucus do not have any trace of E3b. Most European people have genetic markers that are primarily identical with people from the Caucus and thus why they are considered Caucasian. Very few Europeans have traces of E3b and the ones that do have historical contacts with the Egyptians (Southeast Euroepans).

E3b is not Caucasian. This would be a complete misrepresentation of the origins of E3b. E3b did not originate from the Caucus region. It originated in Kenya. Egyptian civilization can be traced to these people and not the Asiatics or Aryan people. Also, in a social context, the originators of E3b are considered Black. They are not a composite which is evidenced by their genetic profile.

For references that back up this conclusion view this website on discussion about E3b frequencies:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

Here are sample pictures of the Borana (again these are not MIXED AFRICANS):

posted 25 June 2005 02:31 AM            

Osirion, perhaps you can post the following at my new forum: http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=thenile&sid=113514db2092e89a35b97530ed3437be

Trying to break in the new forum. On this forum you can avoid the constant spam and flames.

posted 25 June 2005 11:14 AM            

Even in Upper Egypt today, most of these people would stick out like a sore thumb. The trouble with people is that they play game with reality and try to fudge the truth in order to justify their own racist agenda.

The people of Ancient and Modern Egypt have very little to do with any of these Black African people.

posted 25 June 2005 11:38 AM            

quote:

---

Just to state the obvious, none of these people look anything like the Ancient Egyptians.

Even in Upper Egypt today, most of these people would stick out like a sore thumb. The trouble with people is that they play game with reality and try to fudge the truth in order to justify their own racist agenda.

The people of Ancient and Modern Egypt have very little to do with any of these Black African people.

---

The people in modern Egypt are not ethnically the same as the ancient Egyptians. We are talking about the pre-dyanstic era when ancient Egyptian soceity was formed.

posted 25 June 2005 11:40 AM            

Osirion, most early anthropologist stated that the Beja in northern Sudan were the best representations of the ancient Egyptians. Beja people look like people from the Horn of Africa,and early Arab travelers called them Abyssinians.

posted 25 June 2005 12:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Osirion, most early anthropologist stated that the Beja in northern Sudan were the best representations of the ancient Egyptians. Beja people look like people from the Horn of Africa,and early Arab travelers called them Abyssinians.

---

If you talking about Egypt 10,000 years ago, yes

But Ancient Egyptians obviously are not identical to the people who lived in Egypt 7000 years ago, but their ancestors mixed with people from the fertile crescent and Europeans coming down through North Africa nd East to EGYPT.

posted 25 June 2005 12:37 PM            

quote:

---

f you talking about Egypt 10,000 years ago, yes

But Ancient Egyptians obviously are not identical to the people who lived in Egypt 7000 years ago, but their ancestors mixed with people from the fertile crescent and Europeans coming down through North Africa nd East to EGYPT.

---

Do you have a reference or citation for this?

Ancient Egyptian civlization came from people living in the Nile and from other migrations from Central and eastern Sahara into the Nile Valley.

The mixing in Egypt occured during the Middle Kingdom into the Greco-Roman period.

quote:

---

Ausar being a Coptic makes you very bitter toward the rest of EGYPTIANS AND SAYING UNTRUTHFUL OR FABRICATED HISTORICAL FACTS, TO GET BACK ON THE MUSLIM EGYPTIANS.

---

This is a non-sequintir. Muslim and Coptic Egyptians have mixed with foreigners over the years that came into the Nile Valley. Neither one of these groups are pure.

Truth is modern Egyptians are not ethnically like the ancient Egyptians. The cloest to the ancient Egyptians in modern Egypt are the fellahin and Saidi people from southern Upper Egypt.

posted 25 June 2005 12:46 PM            

Do you believe in Mustafa Gadallah's migration of Egyptians back out of Egypt?

posted 25 June 2005 12:53 PM            

That's a non-sequitir. I am not reflecting off personal opinions but based on archaeological evidence. Ancient Egyptian soceity came from the pre-dyanstic era.

Some books I recommend:

Egypt in Africa by Theodore Celenko

Ancient Egypt in Africa by David O'Connor

The Prehistory of Egypt : From the First Egyptians to the First Pharaohs
by Beatrix Midant-Reynes. Translated by Ian Shaw
Paperback - 320 pages (December 1999) Blackwell Pub;
ISBN: 0631217878

When you have read these books then please get back at me. These books should be available at a University library.

posted 25 June 2005 03:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
...just wondaring.

---

In a country of religious bigotry from both Christians and Muslims. In a country where dark skinned Egyptians are treated as 2nd class citizens, in a country where poverty gives you minimal rights as its citizen.

Imagine If you belong to 6% of the minority , dark skin and from a humble beginnings. Would you give any positive historical information on the 94% of the population?

posted 25 June 2005 03:52 PM            

quote:

---

In a country of religious bigotry from both Christians and Muslims. In a country where dark skinned Egyptians are treated as 2nd class citizens, in a country where poverty gives you minimal rights as its citizen.

Imagine If you belong to 6% of the minority , dark skin and from a humble beginnings. Would you give any positive historical information on the 94% of the population?

---

Most people who live in Middle and Upper Egypt are medium to dark-brown in color. This includes both the Christians and Muslims. The Christian Egyptians in the north[especially around Alexandria and Cairo] might appear lighter than people in Middle and Upper Egypt because of mixing with Greeks,Armenians,Lebanese,and Syrian Christians.

The number is definately much higher than 6% and more like 20-30 %.

What does it matter if I am Coptic or Muslim. Muslim fellahin and Saidi people living in Southern Upper Egypt are my true brothers and sisters no matter their religious affiliation.

Even the lighter fellah in the Delta are my bothers and sisters,and I don't really care if they are mixed with Greeks,Armnenians,Arabs,or even Eastern Europeans. It really does not matter to me really.

I will never claim to be an Arab because none of my ancestors that I know of were Arabs. In Saeed we distinguish fellahin from ashraf and Arabs. You can tell settlements of Arabs mostly around areas like Qift[Coptos],Sohag and other areas in Middle Egypt.

Alot of the non-indigenous elite in Egypt are desendants of Albanians,Turks,and other groups. And yes the prominent Coptic families are mixed to from the Ebeids,Abdel-Nours,Ghalis,Doss,Wissa and Khayaat. Most with Armenians and Greeks.

The people who are the most marginalized in Egypt are the rural people like the fellahin,Saidi,and Baladi people. Some medical officals in Egypt even tried to use the lower-class Egyptian population as guinea pigs.

Most of the snobby elite in Egypt live in their own little confined villa in areas like Zmamalek,Dokki and Maadi. You will never find them where my parents live in Bulaq Abu Ella.

posted 25 June 2005 04:24 PM            

Facts:

1. E3b are your originators.

2. Non-E3b foreigners participated but were not the originators.

3. E3b is derived from Kenyans.

4. Egyptian people have over considerable amount of time become more Caucasian due to conquest, migrations and invasions. However, the original Nile people were E3b Africans and their culture was the dominant culture of AE. Yes their were Asiatic and European influences but this was not a one way influnce but rather Egyptians influenced these cultures as well which is evidenced by the flow of E3b into the Middle East and Europe as well as culture contributions to these Non-African cultures.

Question really should be what do you make of the PN2 clade and E3b? Knowing that they are from Kenya would you still call them Caucasian even though E3b has not been found in the Caucaus region? Also, why do you think Non-African influence is necessary for AE when the evidence does not indicate a Mesopatamian origin?

I don't mind having my people take credit for AE but there's significant evidence that suggests we Asiatics arrived well after the foundation of Egypt's culture. I am sure there were individual contributions that were significant to perhaps technological gains but the culture is significantly African in origins.

Also based on known admixture models, there are only 3% original peoples from AE living in Egypt. These people would be you second class citizens. This model is based on recent colonization of the New World by Europeans and the resulting composite races and social classes that resulted. There would be natural resentment by these people of the mixed race of people who would align themselves with the occupying foreign elites for financial and social gains. There is a term for these mixed race people that do this: "Sell outs".

posted 25 June 2005 04:31 PM            

No, he is saying eastern African types populated early Egypt.

posted 25 June 2005 04:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:

ausar are you really a COPTIC Christian from egypt?

---

Thought Writes:

What bearing does this question have on the origins of the AE people?

posted 25 June 2005 04:51 PM            

Thought, here is forum that I created. In invite you here to post more on the origins of the AE.

On this forum is free from spam and you can actually ban trollers:

posted 25 June 2005 04:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Thought, here is forum that I created. In invite you here to post more on the origins of the AE.

On this forum is free from spam and you can actually ban trollers:

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=thenile

---

Thought Writes:

Great job Ausar! I have allready signed up.

posted 25 June 2005 04:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Great job Ausar! I have allready signed up.

---

posted 25 June 2005 08:38 PM            

quote:

---

Is this a good representation of the Original AE

---

posted 25 June 2005 09:14 PM            

http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20of%20Teta.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20Tetisheri.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Merire%20Pepy%20I.jpg

And just for comparison:

Original bust of Tiye http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Home/p63_s.jpg
and this one: http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/um/ti.jpg

posted 25 June 2005 09:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Do these look like Ancient Egyptians?

http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20of%20Teta.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20Tetisheri.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Merire%20Pepy%20I.jpg

And just for comparison:

Original bust of Tiye http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Home/p63_s.jpg
and this one: http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/um/ti.jpg

Modern "recreation": http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20Ty.jpg

---

Both were AE

posted 25 June 2005 09:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Do these look like Ancient Egyptians?

http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20of%20Teta.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20Tetisheri.jpg
http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Merire%20Pepy%20I.jpg

And just for comparison:

Original bust of Tiye http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Home/p63_s.jpg
and this one: http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/um/ti.jpg

Modern "recreation": http://www.egyptholiday.com/wallpaper/egypt/images/m_Queen%20Ty.jpg

---

posted 25 June 2005 10:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jizan:

[This message has been edited by Jizan (edited 25 June 2005).]

---

posted 25 June 2005 10:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

What bearing does this question have on the origins of the AE people?

---

Lots if you are a Copt, dark skinned and from poor background you will have lots of issues with the upper lioght skin elite who are mostly Muslims.

This will make you very bia and have refences from bunch of jewish scholars or afro centric reverands who hate Arabs and Muslims and with some good historical back ground, you could shape Egyptian history to the ignoramas the way you want.

posted 25 June 2005 10:07 PM            

quote:

---

How much of a factor does the harsh sun play in terms of the colorations of these Upper Egyptians? I suspect their women are several shades lighter and still exhibit the natural skin color.

---

Women in Upper Egypt are the exact same color as the men. People around Luxor-Aswan area are medium to dark brown in apperance even without sun exposure.

posted 25 June 2005 10:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Why are you comparing Egyptians with Nubians?

---

How? Stop talking nonsense. I posted modern paintings of famous Egyptians who are depicted as lily white and European looking. Is that what you think they looked like? Then I posted the portraits of Tiye done by ancient Egyptians and compared that with the modern lily white version to show how they differ MAINLY IN SKIN COLOR. Nowhere did I post anything resembling or mentioning nubians.

Therefore, stop beating around the bush. If you believe the ancient Egyptians were white as the paintings I posted, then say so. Stop trying to beat around the bush and make stupid arguments over and over. No matter how many times you keep bringing up the same issue in different ways, it will always bring about the same response.

posted 25 June 2005 10:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

How? Stop talking nonsense. I posted modern paintings of famous Egyptians who are depicted as lily white and European looking. Is that what you think they looked like? Then I posted the portraits of Tiye done by ancient Egyptians and compared that with the modern lily white version to show how they differ MAINLY IN SKIN COLOR. Nowhere did I post anything resembling or mentioning nubians.

---

posted 25 June 2005 10:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR1:
Both were AE

---

How? Two portraits of a person one with brown skin and one with white skin cannot be considered as the same person. Likewise a depicition of Tiye as a white skinned person obviously is not authentic since the ancient Egyptians depicted her as brown skinned. Therefore both portraits are not authentic depictions of the AE.

posted 25 June 2005 10:52 PM            

quote:

---

Queen Tiye was not an Egyptian MR. HISTORIAN, SHE WAS A NUBIAN PRINCES, MARRIED TO THE PHOROAH OF EGYPT.

---

Actually Tiye's family came from Akhimn. Her father was Yuya and her mother was Thuya. Yuya might have been a foreigner from Mitanni. Thuya was an indigenous Upper Egyptian.

posted 25 June 2005 10:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR1:

Queen Tiye was not an Egyptian MR. HISTORIAN, SHE WAS A NUBIAN PRINCES, MARRIED TO THE PHOROAH OF EGYPT.

---

So? The point is that she IS STILL DEPICTED AS BEING WHITE SKINNED IN THE MODERN PORTRAIT.

Are you deaf and dumb or blind to that point?

posted 26 June 2005 12:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jizan:

[This message has been edited by Jizan (edited 25 June 2005).]

---

Are these people have a E3b frequency of 70%+ with little to no Non-African haplogroup such as N? If not, then why are you posting this in my thread on the discussion of E3b?

posted 26 June 2005 01:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
How much of a factor does the harsh sun play in terms of the colorations of these Upper Egyptians? I suspect their women are several shades lighter and still exhibit the natural skin color.

---

The problem is that there are plenty of depiction of children in AE and they were still dark reddish Brown and Black. But I fail to see the point anyways. I am talking about E3b markers and how they relate to various populations of people. Find me people who have no Non-African genes but are primarily E3b but have light skin and you have a legitemate post for this thread. If not you are just acting like a troll!

posted 26 June 2005 01:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
The problem is that there are plenty of depiction of children in AE and they were still dark reddish Brown and Black. But I fail to see the point anyways. I am talking about E3b markers and how they relate to various populations of people. Find me people who have no Non-African genes but are primarily E3b but have light skin and you have a legitemate post for this thread. If not you are just acting like a troll!

---

posted 26 June 2005 01:33 AM            

Here is another hunting scene with children. Children are still depicted with dark skin.

posted 26 June 2005 01:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
You do realize that there are southern Europeans, like the Greek, who carry E3b1, right? Of course, this has no bearings on its sub-Saharan origins.

---

posted 26 June 2005 01:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
But they have a high frequency of the Non-African haplogroup N. That means that they are mixed with a higher amount of Caucasian gene than E3b Black African. What I want is to see groups of people that are primarily just E3b.

---

posted 26 June 2005 03:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Why are you comparing Egyptians with Nubians?

---

Umm, maybe because Nubians were in Egypt hundreds of years before the Copts and long before the Arabs.

posted 26 June 2005 03:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
How much of a factor does the harsh sun play in terms of the colorations of these Upper Egyptians? I suspect their women are several shades lighter and still exhibit the natural skin color.

---

Ahhh, I'm no color expert, but I've witnessed pale white people in that "harsh" sun, and they turn this beet red color, quite amazing, you should see it.

In other words my dear genious, it takes quite a bit of melanin in your skin to get that dark, and to be able to live under those harsh conditions for thousands of years, without turning that beet red color.

posted 26 June 2005 05:11 AM            

Go look at pictures of tanned Greeks, Arabs, and North Africans and you'll understand how these people can tan very easily and become quite dark, without actually burning their skin like the very pale Northern Europeans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Ahhh, I'm no color expert, but I've witnessed pale white people in that "harsh" sun, and they turn this beet red color, quite amazing, you should see it.

In other words my dear genious, it takes quite a bit of melanin in your skin to get that dark, and to be able to live under those harsh conditions for thousands of years, without turning that beet red color.

---

posted 26 June 2005 09:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Fool, nobody said the Egyptians were Pale White, but rather like their other mediterranean neighbors, who turn quite dark during the hot summer months.

Go look at pictures of tanned Greeks, Arabs, and North Africans and you'll understand how these people can tan very easily and become quite dark, without actually burning their skin like the very pale Northern Europeans.

---

that's non-sense

posted 26 June 2005 09:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

How? Stop talking nonsense. I posted modern paintings of famous Egyptians who are depicted as lily white and European looking. Is that what you think they looked like? Then I posted the portraits of Tiye done by ancient Egyptians and compared that with the modern lily white version to show how they differ MAINLY IN SKIN COLOR. Nowhere did I post anything resembling or mentioning nubians.

Therefore, stop beating around the bush. If you believe the ancient Egyptians were white as the paintings I posted, then say so. Stop trying to beat around the bush and make stupid arguments over and over. No matter how many times you keep bringing up the same issue in different ways, it will always bring about the same response.

The Egyptians depicted themselves as a medium to dark brown skinned people, period. Modern paintings of Egyptians that show them as pale white are obviously not the same as ancient portraits that are painted as a medium to dark brown. Obviously the ancient Egyptians knew their own skin complexion and painted themselves the way they looked. The pictures on this thread of modern Egyptians shows that there are a great many Egyptians with a brown skin complexion. Therefore, any portrait of an Egyptian that is painted in modern times with white skin is obviously inaccurate. If you want to be accurate, use the same colors they used to depict themselves and stop making up b**$s#%t scientific arguments about why a white skinned modern painting is more accurate than an ancient portrait done while the subject was alive. And likewise, stop trying to put the blame on those who point out these glaring discrepancies as if they are the ones trying to perpetrate a fraud. The ones perpetrating the fraud are those who continue to depict ancient Egyptians as white skinned, contradicting the ancient depictions of the Egyptians, without any credible science to back it up. It is almost like you are making up scientific justifications for whitening people who depicted themselves as brown.
Lastly, stop trying to evade this issue by bringing up arguments about West Africa, Nubia, South Africa or any other part of Africa. Stick to the point. The issue is that modern portraits of an ancient Egyptians that are painted white when the ancient portraits of the same person were painted brown are a blatantly example of the attempts being made to whitewash Egyptian history and make ancient Egypt a population of white skinned people, as opposed to the way the Egyptians portrayed themselves. Never, in any of the 3 races diagrams did the ancient Egyptians portray themselves as the same color of those from the near east or even Libya. They portrayed themselves as brown and the Libyans and near easterners as white.
That goes to show even more how fraudulent it is to depict ancient Egyptians as having white skin.

---

posted 26 June 2005 10:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

From all the genetic studies I have read, only the E3b haplogroup has claim of Ancient Egypt(AE) from pre-dynastic times. All other genetic inflows were foreigners and depicted as such by the AEs. Egyptians did not see themselves as a mixed people accept that they varied from reddish brown to black (the land of the Black and Red). The only exception were foreign women and dynasties of foreign origin.

From a genetic point of view, regardless of what race you call Egyptians, they were not Asiatic people like the Hebrews, Iranians, Slavs or Indo-Europeans (Caucasians). Genetically the best example of a non-mixed version of E3b are the Borana people of Kenya. It is also interesting to note that the Borana have the same facial features as that of AE deptiction.

So let me clarify a few facts. People from the Caucus do not have any trace of E3b. Most European people have genetic markers that are primarily identical with people from the Caucus and thus why they are considered Caucasian. Very few Europeans have traces of E3b and the ones that do have historical contacts with the Egyptians (Southeast Euroepans).

E3b is not Caucasian. This would be a complete misrepresentation of the origins of E3b. E3b did not originate from the Caucus region. It originated in Kenya. Egyptian civilization can be traced to these people and not the Asiatics or Aryan people. Also, in a social context, the originators of E3b are considered Black. They are not a composite which is evidenced by their genetic profile.

For references that back up this conclusion view this website on discussion about E3b frequencies:

---

posted 26 June 2005 10:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
very good

---

How about paintings of lower Egyptians. ALl the pictures presented here is from Upper Egypt, none from lower Egypt.

posted 26 June 2005 11:42 AM            

**Eygept**

defenatly not cocation.....or negro.

**Rome**

cocation people.......complately different from the previous picture.

posted 26 June 2005 12:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR1:

Lots if you are a Copt, dark skinned and from poor background you will have lots of issues with the upper lioght skin elite who are mostly Muslims.

---

Thought Writes:

Actually the ONLY relevent issue when studying or discussing the biological origins of the Ancient Egyptians is PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY. Not ones ethnic background, not photos of modern Egyptians or anything else. Peer-reviewed, scientific anthropology indicates that the AE people derive from a East African background.