posted 09 July 2005 12:42 PM            

quote:

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Topdog says: Beating? Fool, don't make me laugh. You simply posted a citation which stated the maternal lineages that were bought via Bantu migrations but you did *NOT* prove specific that pre-Bantu inhabitants of east Africa possessed these lineages substantially, don't fool yourself into thinking you beat anyone. Bantu speakers also brought E3a-M2 lineages during their migrations but they are extremely low to nonexistent in Ethiopians and Somalis, so what point and what beating did you issue out?

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Correct!! All genetic studies support the ethnolinguistic and historical facts that Bantus never migrated into Northeast Africa(Sudan and the Horn) in large numbers! Bantus are and have always been a minority in Northeast Africa. They live around the very southern fringes of Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia. The predominantly Bantu inhabited countries are Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania!!

Sudanese, Ethiopians, and Somalis are not black because of Bantu ancestry!! LMAO

Just to let you know, there are ethnic Somalis who post on this forum and if they heard the BS you say about their ancestry, they will be the next to whoop your a**!!

They know alot more about their history and ancestry than you!! Hell, I'm not even African and I know more about African history and ancestry than you!!!

Any sane mind with common sense knows that East Africans have always been black, before Bantus even existed!!

You are one crazy, stupid *ss mut!!

posted 09 July 2005 06:13 PM            

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Evil:
The point is, they're E(xE3b) lineages in East Africa which were not present there when E3b left the continent...

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Indeed, this is the exact same nonsense that Dienekes made on dodona.

quote:

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Topdog:
for M35 and its Ethiopian in origin. E3b was *NOT* involved in the initial OOA migrations so this has nothing to do with OOA. E3b left Africa via the Levantine Corridor, for God's sake JUST READ THE DARN studies and quit parroting Dienekes logic. All of those E(xE3b) lineages in Ethiopians have East African origins and have nothing to do with W and C Africans where they are *RARE* to totally absent.

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If only Evil also read the response that was given to Dieneke’s logic on dodona, as described above, he would realize that it was brought to his attention that E3b in Eurasian populations are mainly Neolithic developments, NOT the OOA migrations, or the pre-historic East African remains, which he’d like to imply exclusively carried E3b!

posted 10 July 2005 07:20 AM            

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80 Nubians
76 Sudanese
74 Ethiopians
27 Somalis
61 Kenyans (37 of which are from the extreme north on the Ethiopian border)
12 Tanzanians.

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Bantu markers found in these East Africans:

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"Several mtDNA markers have been proposed as signals of Bantu dispersals, although often in the absence of any southern Bantu data. Bandelt et al. (1995) and Chen et al. (1995) suggested haplogroup L1a, part of which (defined by a 9-bp intergenic deletion) was confirmed as an important eastern Bantu marker by Soodyall et al. (1996). Watson et al. (1997) similarly proposed a subset of haplogroup L3b. Subsequently, Alves-Silva et al. (2000) and Bandelt et al. (2001) have proposed (on the basis of analyses of Brazilian mtDNA data) that fragments of haplogroups L2, L3e, and L1e may also be important Bantu mtDNA markers."

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Confirmation from Passarino:

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"...the Ethiopian population...contains African components ascribable to Bantu migrations...."

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posted 10 July 2005 12:02 PM            

L3e:

"L3e (fig. 9b) is the most widespread, frequent, and ancient of the African L3 clades, comprising approximately one-third of all L3 types in sub-Saharan Africa. This haplogroup has recently been dissected in some detail by Bandelt et al. (2001), who suggest an origin for the haplogroup in the Central Africa/Sudan region 45,000 years ago. As they recognized, L3e1 in particular is common amongst southeastern African Bantu speakers, along with some L3e2 and L3e3 lineages. L3e also represents approximately one-third of all African mtDNA lineages in Brazil. Alves-Silva et al. (2000) therefore hypothesized that it might be a common component of the (as yet unsampled) Angolan mtDNA pool, from where it may have been carried to Brazil during the slave trade.

L3e1 is distributed throughout sub-Saharan Africa, but it is especially common in southeastern Africa. This clade appears to have a west Central African origin and is rare among West Africans, although it is well represented among African Americans. Several southeastern African types are shared with East African Bantu-speaking Kikuyu from Kenya. This suggests that L3e1 may have spread into Kenya via the eastern stream from a Cameroon source population (best represented in this data set by Bioko and São Tomé) or from some Central African source. It subsequently dispersed into the southeast (although, with so little data, back migration into Kenya cannot be ruled out). The African American types may be the result of direct transportation from Mozambique, given the lack of West African representatives. One L3e1a type is also present at elevated frequency in the Khwe, but, since it matches two Herero and also has a direct derivative in the southeast, this again appears to have been the result of gene flow from Bantu speakers, even though the type has not been sampled in that group.

L3e2 is more frequent in Central and West Africa. It is not possible to distinguish L3e2a without HVS-II information (a transition at np 198), and, as this information is not available in most sequences in the database, we have incorporated L3e2a into L3e2* in figure 9b. L3e2* appears not to have been transferred to the southeast, with one exception. L3e2* is found mainly in Central Africa, and the derived subclade L3e2b is found primarily in West Africa, with a clear founder type within L3e2*. This indicates a range expansion from Central into West Africa (9,000 years ago). Other instances of such expansions (for example, in haplogroup L2) may be undetectable, at present, because of poor phylogenetic resolution. Few L3e2b types are found in southeastern Africa, but a great many are present in African Americans.

Finally, there are two small sister clades, L3e3 and L3e4. L3e3 is primarily West African, but with its root type present at elevated frequency in the southeast and with some southeastern African derivatives. There is also a Kikuyu derivative, again raising a possible connection with the eastern stream. L3e4 is present in East, Central, and West Africa, with one individual in the southeast, but is too rare to draw conclusions from.

Assuming that L3e and L1e are both of entirely Central African provenance, we can estimate an approximate Central African contribution to the southeastern Bantu speakers of 21% (95% CR .171.248). However, it is not clear (in the absence of further data from the region) whether these lineages should be attributed to assimilation in the forest zone or whether the Cameroon source region could have given rise to both the "West African" and "Central African" lineages found in the southeastern African Bantu speakers."

L1e:

"The minor but ancient haplogroup L1e is restricted almost solely to East Africa, with minor gene flow of one subclade into Central Africa (Mbuti) and southeastern Bantu speakers."

L1a:

"L1a seems likely to have been brought to southeastern Africa by the eastern stream of the Bantu expansion, having been picked up in East Africa.....They propose a Central rather than an East African origin for the deletion; we concur that, although L1a seems most likely to have originated in East Africa, L1a2 may have emerged in Central Africa."

Where is any proof that any of these lineages were spread into pre-Bantu East Africans by Bantu speakers?

posted 11 July 2005 07:34 AM            

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Originally posted by Topdog:
Where is any proof that any of these lineages were spread into pre-Bantu East Africans by Bantu speakers?

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posted 11 July 2005 07:40 AM            

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
What difference does that make? Bantu lineages are found in Northeast Africa. Hence, Northeast Africans have Bantu admixture. Period.

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The point is that they aren't 'Bantu lineages' stop taking Salas et tal's words out of context and distorting them.

posted 12 July 2005 08:22 AM            

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Originally posted by Topdog:
The point is that they aren't 'Bantu lineages'

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Negro, what don't you understand about this:

"Several mtDNA markers have been proposed as signals of Bantu dispersals, although often in the absence of any southern Bantu data. Bandelt et al. (1995) and Chen et al. (1995) suggested haplogroup L1a, part of which (defined by a 9-bp intergenic deletion) was confirmed as an important eastern Bantu marker by Soodyall et al. (1996). Watson et al. (1997) similarly proposed a subset of haplogroup L3b. Subsequently, Alves-Silva et al. (2000) and Bandelt et al. (2001) have proposed (on the basis of analyses of Brazilian mtDNA data) that fragments of haplogroups L2, L3e, and L1e may also be important Bantu mtDNA markers."