posted 12 May 2005 10:15 PM            

u know..without a doubt...that make is leaning on...

and will probably if not sooner or now will try to conclude....

tut was a greek....that is exaclty how hes trying to steer this topic right on to that path.....

and no1 on this forum except u and et al..eurocentrics....which certainly has no validity here....so run off with your false strawed fruitcake imaginations elsewhere..

posted 12 May 2005 10:18 PM            

And you're right. I do think it's time I finally try to get the heck out of here now fo real, suckas. Once I'm gone you can all go back to patting yourselves on the backs.

I have to get back to my pals on Dodona like my Somali friend, Mujahid, and my Chinese friend, human2, and my Khanty friend, zemelmente, who are all evil Eurocentrist fiends like myself bent on destroying darkie foreva! Bwahahahahahahahahaha! *vanishes behind cape*

posted 12 May 2005 10:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
Well, of course Tut was a Greek! We already agreed in the other thread that Greeks have strong Negroid features.

---

mike...ur a mutt..lol..that needs to be euthonized...so ill do the honors....and send u to doggie heaven...DOdona......

could u see that light...or is it as far a run as.....

posted 12 May 2005 10:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
Whaaaa? I thought we were tight, dawg.

---

unfortuanelty mike...if you were not a bias mulatto whose tactically arials false truths

i surely would not want to be your dagw which is a term that seems eurocentrics like youself have adopted to use on othres to sawy..how cunninig

mike you are expelled from are presents

no less no more of a leche...

posted 12 May 2005 10:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
*hangs head in shame*

I have no idea what a "leche" is, but if it's anything like a leach, that hurts.

---

no im pretty sure leche..is correct...

not the pest ....leach

but a leche....scubbling antelop ...like yourself the prancise around mindless in the sahvanna till its pounced on by a......zippp...

posted 12 May 2005 10:55 PM            

...

...

...

...

...in garbage disposal. *rimshot*

posted 12 May 2005 11:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
Yeah, if my spelling skills were anything like yours, I might actually have a bright future...

...

...

...

...

...in garbage disposal. *rimshot*

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 12 May 2005).]

---

i really dont care for your childish remarks..since you cant shed any light on this forum

im not going to bark to your tone...

bright future...its right on egyptsearch...with members i need not named have brighten this sight from the darkness that always hides in sheep cloths....

posted 12 May 2005 11:38 PM            

My real main interest is dicussion ancient Egypt and Egyptology. I sometimes realize that this board goes into different directions.

You don't realize how badly many early Eurocentric scholars have tarnished ancient Egyptian history.

posted 12 May 2005 11:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

TopDog tells me the Badarian was even more negroid than the Nilotid (which I find hard to believe because I can't think of any better example of an extreme case of Negroidness than a tall, blue-black Shilluk warrior and soforth.)

---

Thought Writes:

Mike, which group of Europeans do you consider to be the most extreme case of 'Caucasoidness' and the least extreme case. Thanks in advance.

posted 13 May 2005 12:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
Mike, which group of Europeans do you consider to be the most extreme case of 'Caucasoidness' and the least extreme case. Thanks in advance.

---

Hmmm... tough question. If I had to pick the most extreme case out of the Caucasians in general, I would have to go with the Irano-Afghan type of the Iranian Plateau. Its high-headedness, narrow face, hooked nose, rugged features and abundant beard is about as Caucasian as it gets in my opinion.

For instance, this Pathan that Carleton Coon chose to pick as representative of the Caucasoid type:

But if I had to pick solely Caucasians from Europe, I would have to go with the Nordic type because of its extreme case of depigmentation. Note also that the Corded Nordic prototype has the same high-head as the Irano-Afghan. In fact the two are metrically very close.

Of course, you could also argue that the brachycephalic Caucasian type of central Europe (commonly called Alpine) is very extreme because... well... it's the odd man out in a sea of longheads.

posted 13 May 2005 12:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Hmmm... tough question. If I had to pick the most extreme case out of the Caucasians in general, I would have to go with the Irano-Afghan type of the Iranian Plateau. Its high-headedness, narrow face, hooked nose, rugged features and abundant beard is about as Caucasian as it gets in my opinion.

For instance, this Pathan that Carleton Coon chose to pick as representative of the Caucasoid type:

---

Thought Writes:

Mike the 'Negroid' groups such as Somalian and Hausa share common physical characteristics AND blood lineages/genes and hence have a recent COMMON origin. On the other hand the Pathan and the Swede share similar physical characteristics based upon happenstance and NOT direct, recent common lineage. How do you justify linking these two populations in a common 'RACE" even though they have no direct common ancestry? What is your definition of race?

posted 13 May 2005 12:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Mike the 'Negroid' groups such as Somalian and Hausa share common physical characteristics AND blood lineages/genes and hence have a recent COMMON origin. On the other hand the Pathan and the Swede share similar physical characteristics based upon happenstance and NOT direct, recent common lineage. How do you justify linking these two populations even though they have no direct common ancestry?

---

posted 13 May 2005 12:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

I don't link the Irano-Afghan and Nordic types together because of exactly the reason you just stated. They are both Caucasian types who happen to be metrically similar by chance.

---

Thought Writes:

So in your mind is there more than one 'Caucasoid' race?

posted 13 May 2005 12:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
What is your definition of race?

---

If I wanted to be formal about it, I would just use the dictionary definition but I've never been one to go with the flow.

Personally, I think of races of people as I think of breeds of animals. You know. Labrador:Negroid :: Poodle:Caucasoid. I know that's amusing but I think you get the picture.

posted 13 May 2005 12:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Personally, I think of races of people as I think of breeds of animals. You know. Labrador:Negroid :: Poodle:Caucasoid. I know that's amusing but I think you get the picture.

Actually, I like the definition Loring Brace used when he said, "Race is family writ large."

---

Thought Writes:

But Mike, if the Pathan and the Swede share physical characteristics because of HAPPENSTANCE how can they be considered a part of the same 'breed' or 'family'? Both terms imply direct lineage.

posted 13 May 2005 12:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

So in your mind is there more than one 'Caucasoid' race?

---

Yeah, you could say that. Because physical anthropology doesn't always follow genetic lines, though it tries to.

For instance, the Veddah of India and the Australian aborigines are quite distinct from each other. But because of their features they are both considered part of a wider "Australoid" supertype. The types that are called Australoid may have split from the source many, many years ago, but despite their independent evolution they still retain the characteristics of that type.

Same with American Indians and East Asians. A genetic split long ago from Siberia but the Amerinds still retained a Mongoloid phenotype.

posted 13 May 2005 12:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

For instance, the Veddah of India and the Australian aborigines are quite distinct from each other.

---

Thought Writes:

How so Mike?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

That's why I don't refer to things like Irano-Afghan and Nordic as "subraces." Cause they're just types.

---

Thought Writes:

So don't you think it would be more informative to utilize DIFFERENT terms for these two groups?

posted 13 May 2005 12:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Do you mean to say that Swedes and Pathans don't share a common Caucasoid racial origin way back in time?

---

Thought Writes:

Correct. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

posted 13 May 2005 12:52 AM            

I'll ask around for some input. It would make for interesting conversation, anyway. For now though I've got to get some sleep. It's 1:51 where I'm at right now. See yall later.

posted 13 May 2005 12:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

I wish I could answer you, but I'm still new to this and I don't know because I'm not a genetics guy, you see. Which is pretty sucky because I know plenty of people from other boards (not just Dodona) who would jump at the opportunity to answer a question like that.

I'll ask around for some input. It would make for interesting conversation, anyway. For now though I've got to get some sleep. It's 1:51 where I'm at right now. See yall later.

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 13 May 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

The only pre-LGM Y-Clade that SW Asia and Europe share in common is R1. This lineage of course dates to a time when Europeans were morphologically 'Negroid' based upon your classification scheme.

Thought Posts:

African Exodus
Chris Stringer and Robin McKie

"Nor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans. Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical categorizations, as is the case with some early modern skulls from the Upper Cave at Zhoukoudian in China."

Thought Writes:

Here is a good starting point in terms of genetics:

Note: Hg 9 would be Hg J and Hg 3 would be R1a1

Thought Posts:

Y-Chromosome Lineages Trace Diffusion of People and Languages in Southwest Asia

Lluís Quinatana-Murci,1 Csilla Krausz,1 Tatiana Zerjal,2 S. Hamid Sayar,3 Michael F. Hammer,4 S. Qasim Mehdi,5 Qasim Ayub,5 Raheel Qamar,5 Aisha Mohyuddin,5 Uppala Radhakrishna,6 Mark A. Jobling,7 Chris Tyler – Smith,2 and Ken McElreavey1

The origins and dispersal of farming and pastoral nomadism in southwestern Asia are complex, and there is controversy about whether they were associated with culture transmission or demic diffusion. In addition, the spread of these technological innovations has been associated with the dispersal of Dravidian and Indo-Iranian language in southern Asia. Here we present genetic evidence for the occurrence of two major population movements, supporting a model of demic diffusion early farmers from southwestern Iran-and of pastoral nomads from western and central Asia-into India, associated with Dravidian and Indo-European-language dispersals, respectively.

Framing and animal domestication are recent phenomena in human history, occurring from 10,000 years before present (YAB) onward. Farming arose independently in several parts of the world, including in a region in the Middle East known as the "Fertile Crescent," which extends from Israel through northern Syria to western Iran. From this region, agriculture expended in both western and eastern directions. The expansion toward Europe is the most thoroughly studied (Ammerman and Cavall-Sforza 1984) and began ~9,000 YBP. The spread of the farming economy toward the east, into the area from Iran to India, started a little later, between the 6th and the 5th millennia B.C. the Neolithic revolution in the Iranian region and in the Indus valley reached its zenith by 6,000 YBP and involved strong urban civilizations such as the Sumerian, the Elamite, and the Harappan. Another major innovation, probably beginning later than agriculture, was the domestication of animals, which is thought to have led to dramatic population expansions in Eurasia. Pastoral nomadism developed in the grasslands of central Asia east of the Volga-Don region, as well as in southeastern Europe, opening up the possibility of rapid movements of large population groups (Zvelebil 1980). The spread of these new technologies has been associated with the dispersal of Dravidian and Indo-Iranian languages in southern Asia (Renfrew 1987; Cavalli-Sforza 1988). Specifically, Elamo-Dravidian languages (Ruhlen 1991), which may have originated in the Elam province (Zagros Mountains, southwestern Iran), are now confined to southeastern India and to isolated groups in Pakistan and northern India. It is hypothesized that the proto Elamo-Dravidian language, spoken by the Elamites in southern Iran, spread eastward with the movement of farmers from this region (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Renfrew 1996). A later episode, the arrival of pastoral nomads from the central Asian steppes to The Iranian plateau, ~4,000 YBP, brought with it the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family, which eventually replaced Dravidian language in Iran and most of Pakistan and northern India, perhaps by an elite dominance process (Renfrew 1987, 1996; Cavalli-Sforza 1988). The incursion of these "Aryan" peoples coincided with the decadence of important Neolithic cultures, such as the Harappan civilization, by ~3,000-4,000 YBP.

To date, there is little genetic evidence to support or contradict these linguistic and archeological observations, and the genetic impact of these events has not been evaluated. In the present study, a set of 459 Y chromosomes from several population located in a key geographical position between the Fertile Crescent, central Asia, the Indus valley, and northern India (table 1) were analyzed, and the results were compared with data from neighboring Pakistani populations. Y-chromosome haplogroups (HGs) were defined by the analysis of 11 bialleic markers (SRY-1532, YAP, SRY-8299, Sy81, 12f2, M9, 92R7, SRY-2627, LLY22g, Tat, and RPS4Y)(Bergen et al. 1999; Rosser et al. 2000, and references therein ). Two Y-chromosome lineages, HG 3, show frequency clines that may reflect population movements in southern Asia (fig 1A and B). the frequency distribution of these two HGs in the study populations is reported in table 1, together with relevant data from the literature HG 9, defined by the 12f2 deletion, is largely confined to Caucasoid populations, with its highest frequencies being found in Middle Eastern populations (fig 1A). This HG has been proposed as an indicator of the demic diffusion of farming in Europe (Semino et al. 1996). In Iranian populations, HG 9 shows very high frequencies (~30%-60%). Populations from the southeastern Caspian region and the Zagros Mountains exhibit the highest frequencies so far observed (~60%) (fig 1A). High frequencies of HG 9 have been found throughout the Fertile Crescent region (Hammer et al. 2000): Palestinians, 51% Lebanese, 46%; and Syrians, 57%. The incidences of HG 9 in Pakistan (18%) and northern India (19%) indicate a decreasing-frequency cline from Iran toward India.

Received October 27, 2000; accepted for publication December 4, 2000; electronically published December 27, 2000.
Address for correspondence and reprints: Dr. Lluís Quintana-Murci, Unité ï Immunogénétique Humaine, INSERM E0021, Institut Pasteur, 25, rue Dr. Roux 75724 Paris Cedex 15, France. E.mail: Quintana@pasteur. Fr
©2001 by The American Society of Human Genetics. All rights reserved 0002-9297/2001/6802-0028$02.00
The most likely region of origin of a given HG can be recognized on the basis of two characteristics: it has the highest frequency diversity. Founder effects and drift in small population can also lead to high HG frequencies, but his will usually affect neighboring populations differently and be accompanied by low diversity. Genetic diversity within HG 9 was therefore examined by the typing of HG9 chromosomes from populations in Iran, Pakistan and India, at six microsatellite loci (DYS19, DYS388, DYS390, DYS 391, DYS392, AND DYS393). If the number of mutations has been low, the haplotype (Ht) that underwent expansion is likely to be the one with the most common allele for each short tandem repeat (STR) (in this case, 3:14-15-23-10-11-12). This Ht is present in our sample and is most frequent in the Iranian populations examined, as illustrated in the median-joining network (Bandlt et al. 1999) (fig 2). Both the high incidence and the glob al haplotypic diversity of Iranian HG-9 chromosomes (D = .97), which are scattered throughout the median-joining-network, suggest that this region was the geographical origin of HG9, Consistently high haplotypic diversity values of HG-9 chromosomes are also observed in the Zagros Mountains (D = .97) and southeastern Caspian regions (D = .98), where HG-9 exhibits its highest frequencies. These STR diversity values argue against drift being responsible for the increased HG-9 frequencies in these regions. Altogether, the clinal variation and haplotypic diversity of this Y-chromosomal lineages support a model in which farming dispersal was accompanied by major population movements, probably originating in what was historically defined as Elam, towards the Indus valley, and this movements was associated with the dispersal of Dravidian languages (Renfrew 1996).

Table 1
Frequency Distribution of HG 9 and HG 3 in Human Populations from Different Regions.

FREQUENCYb
(%)
REGION N HG 9 HG 3 Source
Iran:C
Azarbaijan 83 34 17 Present study
Zagrosc Mountains 34 59 6 Present study
Western Caspian 34 53 3 Present study
Eastern Caspian 25 56 20 Present study
Tehran region 50 30 14 Present study
Central-north 79 39 9 Present study
Central-south 72 38 17 Present study
Eastern provinces 26 35 31 Present study
Pakistan 708 18 32 Present study
India:
Gujurat 58 19 26 Present study
Jaunpur 152 NT 20 Zerjal et al. (1999)
Indians mixed 72 NT 15 Hammer et al. (1998)
Uttar Pradesh 62 7 NT Semino et al. (1996)
Sri Lanka 83 NT 15 Hammer et al. (1998)
Meddle East:
Lebanon 24 46 4 Hammer et al. (2000)
Syria 91 57 9 Hammer et al. (2000)
Palestine 73 51 0 Hammer et al. (2000)
Europe:
Turkey 167 33 5 Rosser et al. (2000)
Russia 122 4 47 Rosser et al. (2000)
Ukraine 27 0 30 Rosser et al. (2000)
Latvia 34 0 41 Rosser et al. (2000)
Poland 112 4 54 Rosser et al. (2000)
Greece 36 28 8 Rosser et al. (2000)
Italy 99 20 2 Rosser et al. (2000)
Spain 126 3 2 Rosser et al. (2000)
Africa:
Algeria 27 41 0 Rosser et al. (2000)
Sub-Saharan Africa 199 1 0 Hammer et al. (2000)

a Data from the present study are underlined.
b For HG 9 and HG 3, the allelic-state combinations of the 11 biallelic markers analyzed-SRY-1532, YAP, SRY-8299, sY81, 12f2, M9, 92R7, SRY-2627, LLY22g, Tat, and RPS4Y-are G, Alu, G, A, 8kb, C, C, C, C, T, and C; A, Alu, G, A, 10kb, G, T, C, C, T, and C, respectively NT = not tested.
C Divided on the basis of geographical origin (ascertained until the grandfather’s generatagros Mountains (Kordestan, Lorestan Elam and Khuzestan), western Caspian (Gilan), eastern Caspian (Mazndaran), centerl-north (Zanjan, Makrazi, Hamadan, and Semnan), central-south (Fars, Esfahan, and Hormozgan), and eastern provinces (Khorasan, Baluchestan, and Kerman.)

HG 3, defined by a back mutation at SYR-1532. is virtually absent from African, eastern Asian, and Native American populations and is found at its highest frequency in centerl Asia (Hammer et al. 1998; Karafet et al. 1999; Zerjal et al. 1999)-Russia, 50% and the Altai., 52%-with decreasing-frequency cline westward into Europe (zerjal et al. 1999; Rosser et al. 2000); this evidence suggests central Asia as the source region of this marker. The distribution of HG 3 in Iran shows marked differences between western and eastern provinces (south western Caspian [3%] (fig1B), with a decreasing-frequency cline towards India (Pakistan [32%], northern India [26%]). When the very low frequencies of HG 3 in the Middle East (Hammer et al.2000) are taken into account, the frequency pattern of HG 3 in southwestern Asia (table 1) supports the idea that Indo-European speakers spread from Central Asia into modern Iran via an eastern-Caspian route, as well as into India. The relatively high frequency and haplotypic diversity (D =.90) of HG 3 in our Indian sample suggests that the number of individuals entering from the west was large. This view is supported by the presence of HG3 throughout most of the Indian subcontinent (table 1), showing that this lineage spread over a vast area.

As a result of coalescence analysis, the mutations defining HG9 and HG3 have been dated to ~14,800 and ~7.500 YBP, respectively (Karafet et al. 1999; Hammer et al. 2000). We have used microsatellite-diversity analysis to estimate the most recent common ancestor of our set of Iranian, Pakistani, and Indian HG-9 and HG-3 chromosomes, through use of the mean variance of microsatellite repeats, averaged across the six loci (Slatkin 1995; Kittles et al. 1998). We have estimated a Y-chromosomal microsatellite mutation rate by poling the data available in the literature (Heyer et al. 1997;Bianchi et al. 1998; Foster et al. 1998; Kayser et al. 2000), for the six microsatellite loci used in our study. Thus, 10 mutational events in a total of 5,431 meioses were observed, giving an average mutation-rate (µ) estimate of 1.8 x 10 –3 (95% confined interval [Cl]9.8 x 10 4-3.1 x 103 ). The coalescence times obtained (table 2) provide an upper-limit estimate for the time when the populations carrying these HGs started to expand in size in the areas considered here. However, coalescence time estimate must be interpreted with caution. Several factors- such ad the distinctive demographic histories of the populations sampled (or HGs) – may distort estimates of age. Consequently, the history of this single locus is not necessarily the history of the populations, because of drift selection, or male-specific behavior.

Table 2

Estimated Ages for HG9 and HG 3 in Southwestern Asia

AGEb (95%Clc) AT
GENERATION TIME =
HG AND REGION
(MEAN VARIANCEa) 20 Years 30 Years
HG 9:
Iran (.57) 6,300(3,700-11,600) 9,500(5,500-17,400)
Pakistan (.47) 5,200(3,000-9,600) 7,800(4,500-14,400)
India (.36) 4,000(2,300-7,300) 6,000(3,500-11,000)
HG 3:
Iran (.38) 4,200(2,500-7,800) 6,300(3,700-11,600)
Pakistan (.37) 4,100(2,400-7,600) 6,200(3,600-11,300)
India (.33) 3,700(2,100-6,700) 5,500(3,200-10,100)
a Of the microsatellite repeats, averaged across loci.
b YAB. An average µ of 0.18% per locus per generation was assumed.
c The 95% Cl of the µ estimate was taken into account in the calculation of the 95% Cl (9.8 x 10-4-3.1 x 10-3) for the coalescence estimates.

Despite the important stochastic component of Y-chromosome diversity, clinal variation within Europe has been observed (Semino et al. 1996; Zerjal et al. 1997; Malaspina et al. 1998; Casalotti et al. 1999; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Hill et al. 2000; Rosser et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000), and the same trend seems to emerge from our data from Asia. The geographical distribution, observed clines, and estimated ages of HG-9 and HG-3 chromosomes in southwestern Asia all support a model of demic diffusion of early farmers from southwestern Iran-and nomads from western and central Asa-into India, bringing the spread of genes and culture (including language) to southwestern Asia. Although alternative, more complex explanations are possible the analysis of the modern male-specific gene pools in these populations suggests that major demographic events, involving migration and admixture, accompanied these important historical and linguistic events.

Acknowledgments

We thank Evelyne Heyer, Francois Jacquesson, and Chris Ottolenghi for fruitful discussion, and we thank tow anonymous reviewers for helpful remarks. We are grateful to Christiana Di Rocco for help with the Y-chromosome STR typing. We acknowledge support from Institut National de la Santé et de la Recherche Médicale and Foundation pour la Recherche Médicale (to L.Q.-M., C.K., and K.M.), Telethon Italy, grant 281/b (to C.K.), The Wellcome Trust (to T.Z., S.Q.M., Q.A.,R.Q., and A.M.) and the Cancer Research Campaign (to C.Y.-S.) M.A.J. is a welcome Trust Senior Fellow supported by grant 057559.
References

Ammerman AJ, Cavalli-Sforza LL (1984) Neolithic transition and the genetics of populations in Europe. Princeton University Pres, Princeton,NJ

Bandelt HJ, Forster P,Rohl A (1999) Median-joining-networks for increasing intraspecific phylogenies. Mol Biol Evol 16:37-48

Bergen AW, Wang GY, Tsai J, Jefferson K, Dey C, Smith KD, Park SC, Tsai SJ, Goldman D (1999) An Asian-Native American paternal lineage identified by RPS4Y resequencing and by microsatellite haplotyping. Ann Hum Genet 63:63-80

Bianchi NO, Catanesi Cl, Bailliet G, Martinez-Marignac VL, Bravi CM, Vidal-Rioja LB, Herrera RJ, Lopez-Camelo JS (1998) Characterization of ancestral and derived Y-chromosome haplotypes of New World native populations. Am J Hum Genet 63:1862-1871

Casalotti R, Simoni L, Belledi M, Barbujani (1999) Y-chromosome polymorphisms and the origins of the origins of the European gene pool. Proc R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 266:1965

Cavalli-Sforza LL (1988) The Basque population and ancient migrations in Europe. Munibe 6:129-137

Cavalli-Sforza LL, Piazza A, Menozzi P (1994) the history and geography of human genes. Princeton University Press, Princeton, Nj

Foster EA, Jobling MA, Taylor PG, Donnelly P, de Knijff P, Mieremet R, Zerjal T, Tyler-Smith C (1998) Jefferson fathered slave’s last child. Nuture 396:27-28

Hammer Mf, Karafet T, Rasanayagam A, Wood ET, Altheide TK, Jenkins T, Griffiths RC, Templeton AR, Zegura SL (1998) Out of Africa and back again: nested cladistic analysis of human Y chromosome variation. Mol Biol Evol 15:427-441.

Hammer MF, Redd AJ, Wood ET, Bonner MR, Jarjanazi H, Karafet T, Santachiara-Benerecetti S, Oppenheim A, Jobling MA, Jenkins T, Ostrer H, Bonne-Tamir B (2000) Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 97:6769-6774

Heyer E, Puymirat J, Dielties P, Bakker E, de Knijff P (1997) Estimating Y chromosome specific microsatellite mutation frequencies using deep rooting pedigrees. Hum Mol Genet 6:799-803

Hill EW, Jobling MA, Bradly DG (2000) Y-chromosome variation and Irish origins. Nature 404:351-352

Karafet TM, Zegura SL, Posukh O, Osipova L, Bergen A, Long J, Goldman D, Klitz W, Harihara S, de Knijff P, Wiebe V, Griffiths RC, Templeton AR, Hammer MF (1999) Ancestral Asian source(s) of New World Y-chromosome founder haplotypes. Am J Hum Genet 64:817-831

Kayser M, Roewer L, Hedman M, Henke L, Henke J, Brauer S, Kruger C, Krawezak M, Nagy M, Dobosz T, Szibor R, de Knijff P, Stoneking M, Sajantila A (2000) Characteristics and frequency of germline mutations at microsatellite loci from the human Y chromosome, as revealed by direct observation in father/son pairs. Am J Hum Genet 66:158-1588

Kittles RA, Perola M, Peltonen L, Bergen AW, Aragon RA, Virkkunen M, Linnoila M, Goldman D, Long JC (1998)
Dual origins of Finns revealed by Y chromosome haplotype variation. Am J Hum Genet 62: 1171-1179

Malaspina P, Cruciani F, Ciminelli BM, Terrento L, Santolamazza P, Alonso A, Brdicka R, García O, Gaudiano C, Guanti G, Kidd KK, Lavinha J, Avila M, Mandich P, Moral P, Qamar R, Mehdi SQ, Ragusa A , Stefanescu G, Garaghin M, Tylet-Smith C, Scozzari R, Novelletto A (1998) Network analyses of Y-chromosomal types in Europe, northern Africa, and western Asia reveal specific patterns of geographic distribution. Am J Hum Genet 63:847-860

Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Minch E, Passarino G, Brega A, Santachiara-Benereccetti AS (1999) Further characteristics of proto-European Y chromosomes. Eur J Hum Genet 7:603-608

Renfrew C (1987) Archaeology and language: the puzzle of Indo-European origins. Jonathan Cape, London.
________ (1996) Languages families and the spread of farming. In: Harris DR(ed) The origins and spread of agriculture and pastoralism in Eurasia. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC, pp 70-92

Rosser ZH, Zerjal T, Hurles ME, Adojaan M, Alavantic D, Amorim A, Amos W et al. (2000) Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe is clinal and influenced primarily by geography, rather than by language. Am J Hum Genet 67:1526-1543

Ruhlen M (1991) A guide to the world’slanguages. Edward Arnold, London.

Semino O, Passarino G, Brega A, Fellous M, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS (1996) A view of the Neolithic demic diffusion in Europe throught two Y chromosome-specific markers. Am J HumGenet 59:964-968

Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P,Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae Mika A, Mika B Primorac D Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA(2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in extant Europeans: a Y chromosome perspective. Science 290:1155-1159

Slatkin M (1995) A measure of population subdivision based on microsatellite allele frequencies Genetics 139:457-462

Zerjal T, Dashnyam B, Pandya A, Kayser M, Roewer L, Santos FR, Schiefenhovel W, Fretwell N, Jobling MA,Harihara S,Shimizu K, Semjidmaa D, Sajantila A, Salo P, Crawford MH, Ginter EK, Evgeafov OV, Tyler-Smith C (1997) Genetic relationships of Asian and northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosome DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet 60:1174-1183

Zerjal T, Pandya A, Santos FR, Adhikari R, Tarazona E, Kayser M, Evgrafov O, Singh L, Thangaraj K, Destro-Biol G, Thomas MG, Qamar R, Medhi SQ, Rosser ZH, Hurles ME, Jobling MA Tyler-Smith C(1999) The use of Y-chromosomal DNA variation to investigate population history: recentmale spread in Asia and Europe. In: Papiha SS,Deka R, Chakraborty R (eds) Genomic diversity: applications in human populations genetics. Plenum Press, New York, pp 91-102

Zvelebil M (1980) The rise of the nomads in Central Asia In: Sherratt A(ed) The Cambridge encyclopedia of archaeology, Crown, New York, pp 252-256

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 13 May 2005).]

posted 13 May 2005 01:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

I'll ask around for some input.

---

posted 13 May 2005 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Other groups like the Mahra of Yemen and others represent the older ethnic groups in Arabia. Their customs and culture are actually more like Africans than so-called Arabs.

---

posted 13 May 2005 08:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
In other words, I'll have Dodona spinners cook something up for me, and then I'll get back to you tomorrow.

---

You got it, buddy. Because not everyone can be as big of an expert (or as obsessed with) this whole race thing as you and your pals. Is this board about Egypt or about genetics?

posted 13 May 2005 08:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
You got it, buddy. Because not everyone can be as big of an expert (or as obsessed with) this whole race thing as you and your pals. Is this board about Egypt or about genetics?

Anyway... I used to think the old black-people-have-more-testosterone-thing was just a half-baked theory, but after coming here and being so aggressively dogged for believing in those pesky "Caucazoids," maybe I'll have to change my mind.

---

posted 13 May 2005 08:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Don't take it personally Mike. I like you. You actually answer questions and admit when you don't know something. That's a good start and alot more than I can say for some of our brethren.

---

Thanks for the encouragement, but, eh, I don't belong here. I could see the little white eyes flame up the moment I walked in the door. "Fresh meat, fresh meat! Booga-booga! Let's make the white man feel guilty about Eurocentrism, something he had nothing to do with!"

I already told everybody that I wasn't an expert of geneticists, only that I had a great deal of knowledge about physical anthropology. So I have no idea when someone is trying to manipulate me or not with wacky haplogroups. I have to rely on my gut instinct. None of this is exact or certain, anyway. Just speculation. But still established speculation. You can never tell when someone is bending the truth or if they are actually being completely honest with you on a board like this that has an overrepresentation of one race (not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not healthy for serious discussion about something as dynamic as racial differences). That's what's great about Dodona. Because so many different races and ethnicites are represented, they'll set you straight if you say something racist or just plain ridiculous. If you want to talk about Mongoloids, human2 is the guy to go to. If you want to talk about Negroids, talk to TopDog. It's great. I don't know why you all villify us. Maybe if we were all black, you wouldn't say anything. And you assume because Dienekes runs the board we're all a bunch of crazy Coonologists. Not true. You'd know if you actually visited. We rarely agree, which is healthy.

posted 13 May 2005 10:39 AM            

Thus the solution for a consistent determination of clinal human groups and their interrelatedness is to look for the MRCA. Interestingly enough we do the same thing for languages. Yet there are puzzles that could arise: consider the case of a Y haplotype being shared by the male offspring of a West African XY but with 2 different XX mothers--one from West Africa the other from Scandinavia. The male offspring and their offspring in turn will share an MRCA much closer in time than that of any 2 randomly chosen West African WY from different regions. The molecular genticists and the physical anthropologists will almost certainly come up with radically different interpretations.

One interesting problem too is what to make of 2 groups that originally split off some 20,000 YA yet have crossed paths again some 5,000 YA--a crossing that has affected only say 15% of both populations. How does one sort that kind of thing out?

Again, the same thing happens with languages: French and English are 2 distinct languages that absorbed loan words from Latin and Greek several hundred years ago while themselves undergoing intralinguistic evolutionary change. Yet English was affected by Norman loan words several hundred years ago while French has absorbed some English loan words in the last decades.

I guess that the challenge of evolutionary anthropology that is genetics based is to sort out the intertwining and outbranching of the branches on the clinal tree itself.

The problem with physical anthropology is that it lacks the dynamic subtlety that molecular genetics enjoys.

posted 13 May 2005 11:07 AM            

Re your Scheele posts: caucasoid and negroid.

The problem with the Scheele post it deals in so-called theoretical pure types and has an 18th and 19th century feel about it as one would get with a Broca diagramme or some exercise in phrenology.

Here are some considerations:

Let me choose 2 African heads of state and 1 ex-head who are constantly in the news so photographs are easily obtainable: Mandela, Mugabe and Mbeki.

The question is how much do you think their cranial phenotypes conform to Scheele's ideal type diagrams?

Take also 2 other African heads of state who are also in the news a bit--so you can easily google their images: Abdoulaye Wade(Senegal) and Quaddafi(Libya)--again check Scheele's diagrammes and the cranial phenotypes of the the 2 in question?

posted 13 May 2005 01:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Do you mean to say that Swedes and Pathans don't share a common Caucasoid racial origin way back in time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Thought Writes:

Correct. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

---

Thought Writes:

Hi Mike. Before we go to far off track on tangents lets get back to the crux of the matter. Many of us consider the Dieknes Website a Psuedo-Scientific, Quasi-religious forum because on one hand it claims that groups who have no recent direct lineage (like Afghanese and Swedes) can be subsumed under a common RACIAL construct simply because of HAPPENSTANCE derived cranial traits. On the other hand these same individuals try and distance East and West Africans who DO have a common, recent genetic lineage AND share in common derived phenotypic traits such as melanin levels and limb attenuation. Many of us believe that this fake construct is designed based upon the knowledge that southern Europeans and especially Greeks carry substantially high frequencies of East African derived Y-Clades. Hence there is an attempt to create a Pan-Caucasoid 'Race" when the groups involved have no direct kinship and to create a division among African people to 'de-Africanize' the origins of the Greeks.

posted 13 May 2005 01:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Everything is so hazy right now.

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 13 May 2005).]

---

Thought Writes:

I don't think there is much 'haze' out there. I think that the results of modern anthropology are not to the likeing of some individuals and hence a hard pill to swallow.

posted 13 May 2005 02:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I don't think there is much 'haze' out there. I think that the results of modern anthropology are not to the likeing of some individuals and hence a hard pill to swallow.

---

posted 13 May 2005 03:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Mike, I appreciate your input in this forum, but let's remember that the subject of this forum is [b]Ancient Egypt and Egyptology! It's bad enough people here all ever talk about is 'race' and physical anthropology, but at least do so pertaining to the subject of the forum![/B]

---

posted 13 May 2005 03:41 PM            

quote:

---

..Forensic testing indicates that the victim was likely a dark-skinned Caucasian from a North African country such as Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia or Egypt...

---

Apparently these 'experts' consider so-called "dark-skinned caucasians" to be native not only to Egypt, but also to countries like Ethiopia, Somalia, and Sudan!!

Ironically, part of the victim's description also said:

quote:

---

She had dark curly hair, which may have been dyed a reddish colour, and protruding front teeth, which were in good condition.

---

quote:

---

The beardless youth depicted in the model, created by a French team, has soft features, a sloping nose and a weak chin — and the overbite, which archaeologists have long believed was a trait shared by other kings in Tut’s 18th dynasty.

---

And as Mike has already shown,

prognathism is considered a 'Negroid' trait.

So what the heck!?

posted 13 May 2005 04:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
mali also brings an interesting point!
Apparently these 'experts' consider so-called "dark-skinned caucasians" to be native not only Egypt, but also to countries like Ethiopia, Somalia, and Sudan!!

Ironically, part of the victim's description also said: [QUOTE]She had dark curly hair, which may have been dyed a reddish colour, and [b]protruding front teeth, which were in good condition.

---

quote:

---

The beardless youth depicted in the model, created by a French team, has soft features, a sloping nose and a weak chin — and the overbite, which archaeologists have long believed was a trait shared by other kings in Tut’s 18th dynasty.

---

And as Mike has already shown,

prognathism is considered a 'Negroid' trait.

So what the heck!?

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 13 May 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

dje...thats the problem with physical anthro

posted 13 May 2005 06:28 PM            

But the whole thing is bogus because Scheele claims that doliocephalism is a classic "negro" trait yet the Somalis and other East are the most doliocephalic of Africa's peoples. Just casual inspection will tell you that too. But, of course, scientific measurements will confirm that.

posted 13 May 2005 06:41 PM            

quote:

---

But the whole thing is bogus because Scheele claims that doliocephalism is a classic "negro" trait yet the Somalis and other East are the most doliocephalic of Africa's peoples. Just casual inspection will tell you that too. But, of course, scientific measurements will confirm that.

---

quote:

---

And this thing about prognathism won't wash either: prognathism is also a common trait with East Asians. Check the WWII archives in the West and you will come across those buck-toothed, angled profile (less than 90 degrees) caricatures of the Japanese face. Or just spend a week in Shanghai just casually inspecting the East Asian profile.

---

Nevertheless, all I stated was that prognathism was just one of the attributes associated with black Africans as well, yet when it comes to the remains of that murdered woman or better yet, the remains of Tut it then labeled as simply being an "overbite" or just protruding teeth. More hyporcrisy.

posted 13 May 2005 07:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Mike, I appreciate your input in this forum, but let's remember that the subject of this forum is [b]Ancient Egypt and Egyptology! It's already a nuisance that people here all ever talk about is 'race' and physical anthropology,

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 13 May 2005).][/B]

---

Thought Writes:

1) Anthropology is a part of Egyptology, allways has been.

2) The point is to not bury our heads in the sand and ignore how the concept of race is allready deeply infused in Egyptology, but to deconstruct the notion of race to free Egyptology up from the psuedo-science. Of course there are those who have a vested interest in the status quo.....

posted 13 May 2005 07:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

1) Anthropology is a part of Egyptology, allways has been.

2) The point is to not bury our heads in the sand and ignore how the concept of race is allready deeply infused in Egyptology, but to deconstruct the notion of race to free Egyptology up from the psuedo-science. Of course there are those who have a vested interest in the status quo...

---

You are right! But I just wish you guys would discuss the cultural part of anthropology as well, not just the physical aspect, although that part is important as well!!

There is much to be said about the Egyptian culture, and I have learned much from Ausar.

posted 14 May 2005 12:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
BigMix...you are trying to morph egyptians (North african caucasians) into Nubians. Its a debate that was settled years ago. Be happy with who you are and enjoy western prosperity.

---

posted 14 May 2005 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Horemheb, why did you start a whole another thread. We were already dicussing Tut-ankh-amun's reconstruction in the other thread,and you could have simply added this comment to the other thread.

In regards to the Forensic anthropologist,Susan Anton, she said the following about the race of Tut-ankh-Amun:

Race was "the hardest call." The shape of the cranial cavity indicated an African, while the nose opening suggested narrow nostrils ? a European characteristic. The skull was a North African.

The resulting plaster cast is perhaps midway between the square-jawed, high-cheekboned Egyptian Tut, and the strikingly androgynous French Tut.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3176462

She basically said the crania was African but the nose opening was more ''European''

BTW, many older anthropologist put people like Nubians,Somalis,Ethiopians,and even Fulani people into the caucasoid bracket. I know most white supremist get a blood rush when hearing this,but understand caucasoid does not necessary mean a European like you envision it to me. Most of it is based on the crania structure which Susan Anton said was '"African''

---

It is amazing to ME how some of those old racist scholars of the past AND SOME FAKE ONES TODAY(NOT THE MAINSTREAM THANK GOODNESS) could put nubians in the white group or call them mixed when greek,roman scholars wrote what they saw,saying that the nubians or ethiopians of the past were BLACK and most are dark skin,and had thick lips and kinky hair and even more so the ones on the nile south of egypt(nubian kush),just like most do today.

THE greeks and romans for the most part called nubia or kush, ethiopia -now in the sudan in east africa and modern day southern egypt.

most of nubia is in the sudan and reaches to sennar,a region that was to a certain extent a part of nubia and became more part of the region of nubia later,but it wa apart of southern sudan in the past but the arabs and internationl comm. want to push the border of southern sudan all the way south as possible,another trick we should look out for,but now the whole region is from southern egypt to central sudan,and central sudan should not be apart of northern sudan if you look at a map,and parts of it belong or should belong to the southern sudan as well

The desciption of the nubians in past and most today sounds like to me like they were same as many central and west africans,and let's not forget their art that shows that they are clearly negriod with flat noses and kinky hair
like most black africans.

Most somalians and ethiopians are still clearly black even if many may have some form of mixture,so they are not white.
believe me they are not white if they step into a klan rally.

I HAVE to say this,the klan are racist but they would tell you in a minute most ethiopians or somalias are not white ,so maybe these fake reseachers like euro and others here could learn something from their brothers who seem to know better than them,and that is not saying much.

posted 14 May 2005 08:07 AM            

King Tut's Face Reconstructed

National Geographic News
May 10, 2005

Is this the true face of Tut? This silicone-skinned bust is billed as the most accurate forensic reconstruction ever of ancient Egypt's Pharaoh Tutankhamun. It was based on recent 3-D CT scans of the mummy of the "boy king," who is believed to have been about 19 when he died some 3,300 years ago.

Led by Zahi Hawass, head of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, a National Geographic Society team commissioned French experts to create the lifelike bust. Using the CT scans, French forensic anthropologist Jean-Noël Vignal determined the basic measurements and features of Tutankhamun's face. Vignal deduced that Tutankhamun had a narrow nose, buck teeth, a receding chin, and Caucasian features. Such features are typical of European, North African, Middle Eastern, and Indian peoples.

Paris-based forensic sculptor Elisabeth Daynès then created the bust shown above. She used Vignal's estimates of skin thickness and other data, plus wooden sculptures of Tut made in his youth. Soft-tissue features, such as the nose and ears, had to be guessed at, though within a scientifically determined range. Daynès based the skin tone on an average shade of Egyptians today and added the eyeliner that the king would have worn in life.

Finally, National Geographic gave the CT data to a U.S. forensic team, who were to work "blind" -- not knowing who the subject was. Their findings validated the French team's conclusions. And their plaster cast, a photo of which will be published on the National Geographic magazine Web site later this month, turned out remarkably similar to the silicon bust.

The reconstruction will be featured in the June issue of National Geographic, in the touring exhibit "Tutankhamun and the Golden Age of the Pharaohs," and on the National Geographic Channel's King Tut's Final Secrets, airing Sunday night.

posted 14 May 2005 10:10 AM            

As someone posted above, what's wrong with the ancient Egyptian portraits? The ancient Egyptian artists captured him alive whereas modern artists are using guesswork.