posted 11 May 2005 10:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Straw man. Who says you have to come from a "refuge" to be European/Caucasoid? Anyway, ~67% of the Greek genome is of non-Neolithic origin. Germans are a bit more (~85%) but still not descended entirely from the three refuges you mentioned. Your "argument" is going nowhere.

The reality is that I have answers for all of your idiotic questions. But where are the Afronut answers for [b]this, this, this, this and this? Clearly, you have none because you ignore the evidence and keep posting irrelevant questions as a cover. That's the tactic of a drowning man...

[/B]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
I have read the entire paper NO WHERE in this paper does it state that East Africa was non-tropical. It states that the tropics were COOLER. Cooler does not equal non-tropical as there are regions within tropical Africa today that are COOLER than other regions in the tropics, but all of these regions fall within the range of tropical Africa.

---

But it's not a question of "cooler than other regions of the tropics". It's a matter of cooler than present regions of the tropics. The study says that Pleistocene East Africa was cool and dry (i.e. non-tropical desert), it speaks of glaciers forming at high altitudes, and so on. Wake up from your "Tropical Ice Age" dream world.

quote:

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This link refers to ALL Ethiopians. I mentioned the Oromo specifically, not ALL Ethiopians.

---

Genetics:

"The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position." (Source)

Anthropology:

"...the Oromo and Amhara appear quite similar to Europoids (particularly to the South Arabians) and considerably different from the Negritic peoples." (Source)

quote:

---

You dropped out on this thread:

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I've defined 'Caucasoid' and 'Negroid' numerous times, and you already know what they mean anyway seeing as you use them. Stop feigning ignorance to avoid the facts which you dislike. East Africans are mixed. Period.
_____________________________________________
These comments ABOVE are wrong again EVIL ONE,east africa is a big place by the way AND MOST EAST AFRICANS are not mixed.period.
______________________________________________

quote:

---

I asked you SPECIFICALLY which refuge the Greeks came out of?

---

Straw man. Who says you have to come from a "refuge" to be European/Caucasoid? Anyway, ~67% of the Greek genome is of non-Neolithic origin. Germans are a bit more (~85%) but still not descended entirely from the three refuges you mentioned. Your "argument" is going nowhere.

The reality is that I have answers for all of your idiotic questions. But where are the Afronut answers for this, this, this, this and this? Clearly, you have none because you ignore the evidence and keep posting irrelevant questions as a cover. That's the tactic of a drowning man...

you are wrong again like the bad guys in a bad movie,your comments evil racist one are incorrect .stop it because it is not amusing and the facts should not be change because you do not like them,you are truly sick and need help.read rasol and my comments on page 5,because they are the truth and the truth would set you free.

posted 11 May 2005 06:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

It is the ancestors of the Oromo, Borana and other early East African groups who migrated down the Nile and into the West Asia, NorthWest Africa and Greece.

The result is that the Ancient Greeks, instead of being descendant entirely from native ICE-Age refuge populations of Europe, were actually descendant from a diverse blend of European whites, West Asians and Black Africans.

This is why the Greeks to this day, have Benin HBS - a genetic trait that is inherited specifically from Black Africa:

And this is why nearly 1/4 of Greek paternal heritage is traceable to Black Africa, 1/4 to West Asia, and less than 50% specifically to Europe.

The ancient Greeks and therefore so called "Western" civilisation are of 'mixed' origins.

---

Thought Writes:

The comment above really speaks to the heart of the matter. Egyptology is a specialized offspring of anthropology. Anthropology as a discipline was born during the expansion of European hegemony and is reflective of that origin. Systems of racial classification were designed with the underlying assumption that the **ESSENCE** of the European was pristine, noble and special and rooted in blood lineage. This belief is at the root of systematic White Supremacy. Modern anthropology and Egyptology has rooted out most of the most overt forms of White Supremacy. More subtle forms exist as in most social interactions. Most modern anthropologists accepted the OOA Migration. But many express more subtle forms of White Supremacy through the belief that it was among the OOA humans and especially Europeans that modern forms of behavior first manifest. This of course has been negated to a great extent by the finds at Bloombas Cave. Yet many still believed that this is what makes Europeans "special". Then along came the discovery of E3b and a LATER more RECENT wave of migrations out of Africa. This later wave is a harder pill to swallow.

posted 12 May 2005 12:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

And this is why nearly 1/4 of Greek paternal heritage is traceable to Black Africa, 1/4 to West Asia, and less than 50% specifically to Europe.

---

Thought Posts:

Al-Zahery et al.
2003

"...the J clade without mutation M172....haplogroups R-M269 (R1b1) and I-M170 (Hg I), very frequent in Europe, are the MAIN DETERMINANTS OF the first principle component which clearly SEPARATES the European populations from others."

Semino et al.
2000

Population Haplogroup Frequency
Greek R-M269 27%
Dutch R-M269 70%
Greek I-M170 7%
Dutch I-M170 22.2%

Thought Writes:

The hybrid Greeks are borderline Europeans.

posted 12 May 2005 12:49 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

It's a matter of cooler than present regions of the tropics. The study says that Pleistocene East Africa was cool and dry (i.e. non-tropical desert)

---

Thought Writes:

No where in this study does it state that tropical Africa was non-tropical during the Ice-Age. Again a few degrees cooler does NOT equal non-tropical. You have no evidence hence you fudge the data by adding: "(i.e. non-tropical desert)" which is NOT in the study.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

I've defined 'Caucasoid' and 'Negroid' numerous times,

---

Thought Writes:

posted 12 May 2005 02:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

NOOO, you have simply provided links to OTHERS defining the term. I requested YOUR definition and you still have not provided it because you know the debate is over when you do....

---

Thought:come on...ive been on this forum for 24 hrs..and read alot of the posts...tried to finish them...and this

EURO...character need s to be bumped...he surely as hell doesnt need to be wasted with ur proofs and bulltins....

It doesnt take a dummy to know a Dummy....and trust me im not name calling..lol...but Euro

WOO HOO EURO...am i shouting..lol..Release THE MENTAL BLOCK..RELEASE....

Thought since he cant....dont bother with him...

I THINK THIS TOPIC SHOULDNT go beyond 7 or 8 pages...ended this faud with th ...MENTAL BLOCK...

posted 12 May 2005 06:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mali:
Thought:come on...ive been on this forum for 24 hrs..and read alot of the posts...tried to finish them...and this

EURO...character need s to be bumped...

---

Moderators can't ban trolls on this forum.

posted 12 May 2005 07:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
No where in this study does it state that tropical Africa was non-tropical during the Ice-Age. Again a few degrees cooler does NOT equal non-tropical.

---

Where does it say just "a few degrees cooler"? The entire paper is about how drastically different the Pleistocene African climate was from today's. Today, East Africa is tropical. During the Pleistocene, it was plunged in an Ice Age, which made temperatures significantly colder everywhere on earth (Africa being no exception). Wake up, moron!

quote:

---

NOOO, you have simply provided links to OTHERS defining the term. I requested YOUR definition

---

Low-IQ ape, why would I have my own personal definitions of racial terms? That's an Afronut game. I go by what the "OTHERS" (i.e. scientific experts) determine.

quote:

---

The hybrid Greeks are borderline Europeans.

---

The monkey talks but doesn't answer . . .

quote:

---

Straw man. Who says you have to come from a "refuge" to be European/Caucasoid? Anyway, ~67% of the Greek genome is of non-Neolithic origin. Germans are a bit more (~85%) but still not descended entirely from the three refuges you mentioned. Your "argument" is going nowhere.

Anthropology:

J. Lawrence Angel on Morphological Types of Greeks

Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks

[ Neolithic Greeks are #7 -- right next to the Neolithic Swiss at #10 ]

Y-chromosomes:

Autosomes:

---

posted 12 May 2005 09:21 AM            

quote:

---

rasol posts:
East Africans have been equatorial [black] for many 10's of thousands of years. - CL Brace

dark skinned is the original state of Homo Sapiens - N. Jablonski

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong - J.O. Vogel

the peopling of East Africa was carried out by three main African groups: the Cushitic-speaking peoples; the Nilotic-speaking peoples; the Bantu-speaking peoples....ancestors of most present-day East Africans– the Black Africans. - Dr. Elisabeth Dunstan and David Hall

"Hamite" has long been discredited and no longer exists as a legitimate racial, genetic or linguistic concept.

---

What's taking so long?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

You didn't even answer my question. I asked you SPECIFICALLY which refuge the Greeks came out of?

---

What's taking so long?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
TROPICAL desert covered much of {LGM} Horn of Africa http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/new_africa.html

Please provide ONE study that states East Africa was NON-Tropical during the period in question?

---

What's taking so long?

posted 12 May 2005 12:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
The monkey talks but doesn't answer . . .

[QUOTE]Straw man. Who says you have to come from a "refuge" to be European/Caucasoid? Anyway, ~67% of the Greek genome is of non-Neolithic origin. Germans are a bit more (~85%) but still not descended entirely from the three refuges you mentioned. Your "argument" is going nowhere.

[b]Anthropology:

J. Lawrence Angel on Morphological Types of Greeks

Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks

[ Neolithic Greeks are #7 -- right next to the Neolithic Swiss at #10 ]

Y-chromosomes:

Autosomes:

---

boo hooo...evil euros a mutt...JUST a hybrid..doggie....stop winning...

rasol...us africans dont need to be labeled..by these inferior people of the north...this complex has begun from day 1 when they stepped foot in OUR land...

so dont feed into this...mutts...fire just smuther it out....

im so tired of the slave crap...LIKE EUROS HAVENT BEEN ENSLAVED BY THERE OWN..AND BY OTHERE AFRICANS...YES BLACK AFRICANS...

so when in hell do africans...BLACK..africans need to be legitamize but the mutts... it must be genetics...as debates go over about criminals are born not mad...IRONICALLY..
EUROS have a higher crime rate among each other

NOW THAT SHOWS U HOW EVOLUTION WAS CERTAINLY RIGGED...not favouring there side

if thats debatable at a psyc level sure as being debateble that ALL EUROS face not complexs...and id generally say its there nature...to TRICK AND DECIEVE OTHERES....

posted 12 May 2005 12:07 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
The monkey talks but doesn't answer . . .

[QUOTE]Straw man. Who says you have to come from a "refuge" to be European/Caucasoid? Anyway, ~67% of the Greek genome is of non-Neolithic origin. Germans are a bit more (~85%) but still not descended entirely from the three refuges you mentioned. Your "argument" is going nowhere.

[b]Anthropology:

J. Lawrence Angel on Morphological Types of Greeks

Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks

[ Neolithic Greeks are #7 -- right next to the Neolithic Swiss at #10 ]

Y-chromosomes:

Autosomes:

---

boo hooo...evil euros a mutt...JUST a hybrid..doggie....stop winning...

rasol...us africans dont need to be labeled..by these inferior people of the north...this complex has begun from day 1 when they stepped foot in OUR land...

so dont feed into this...mutts...fire just smuther it out....

im so tired of the slave crap...LIKE EUROS HAVENT BEEN ENSLAVED BY THERE OWN..AND BY OTHERE AFRICANS...YES BLACK AFRICANS...

so when in hell do africans...BLACK..africans need to be legitamize but the mutts... it must be genetics...as debates go over about criminals are born not mad...IRONICALLY..
EUROS have a higher crime rate among each other

NOW THAT SHOWS U HOW EVOLUTION WAS CERTAINLY RIGGED...not favouring there side

if thats debatable at a psyc level sure as being debateble that ALL EUROS face not only complexs...and id generally say its there nature...to TRICK AND DECIEVE OTHERES....

posted 12 May 2005 01:07 PM            

quote:

---

LIKE EUROS HAVENT BEEN ENSLAVED BY THERE OWN

---

The Slavic origins of slavery.

The diagnostic value of the etymological semantic change from Slav to slave

... As is known, most western European words designating the notion of “slave” derive from the Latin word sclavus, originally meaning “Slavic”: not only English slave, but also German Sklave, Dutch slaaf, Danish slave, Swedish slaaf, Welsh slaf, Breton sklav, French esclave, Spanish esclavo, Portuguese escravo, Italian schiavo, Albanian skllaf, Modern Greek sklavos, etc. The word has also entered Spanish Arabic, where it has become saklabi or siklabi, plural sakaliba, with the meaning of “eunuch”. In Italy, Lat. sclavus has developed into schiavo in the dialect of Florence, which eventually has become standard Italian. But in Northern Italian dialects, in particular in the dialects of Veneto, through regular phonetic developments, sclavus ‘Slav’ as well as ‘slave’ has become first sciavo, then sciao, and finally ciao, the Italian informal greeting, now internationally known.
As to the semantic change from the notion of “slave” to a simple greeting, it can be easily explained by comparing the very similar development by which in certain parts of central Europe the word servus, originally meaning “servant”, has become a common greeting.

Why is all of this important for the traditional theory of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs? Because of the passage from the meaning of ‘Slav’ to the notion of ‘slave’, and its great historical significance. Let us see this in greater detail.

How do scholars explain the semantic development from “Slavic” to “slave”? All historical sources irrefutably show that the Slavic area was the main reservoir of slaves in the whole period of Early Middle Ages, beginning probably in the 6th century, and with a peak around the 10th.

This preference for slaves of Slavic origin –so strong as to make Slavs the slaves by anthonomasia – has been easily explained: in that period Slavic people were the only ones who were still pagan, and this detail is most important as it explains why, by choosing them, early medieval slave traders – mostly Venetian, Genoese and Jewish – did not violate the new principles of the “Societas christiana”, introduced by Pope Gregory the Great at the end of the 6th century, according to which baptized people must be excluded from slavery. So we obtain a safe dating for the word sclavus, in the sense of “slave”, which will be approximately the period between the sixth and tenth centuries.

Slavery in Ancient Greece
Slavery played a major role in ancient Greek civilization. Slaves could be found everywhere. They worked not only as domestic servants, but as factory workers, shopkeepers, mineworkers, farm workers and as ship's crewmembers.

There may have been as many, if not more, slaves than free people in ancient Greece.
It is difficult for historians to determine exactly how many slaves there were during these times, because many did not appear any different from the poorer Greek citizens.

posted 12 May 2005 02:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

Al-Zahery et al.
2003

"...the J clade without mutation M172....haplogroups R-M269 (R1b1) and I-M170 (Hg I), very frequent in Europe, are the MAIN DETERMINANTS OF the first principle component which clearly SEPARATES the European populations from others."

Semino et al.
2000

Population Haplogroup Frequency
Greek R-M269 27%
Dutch R-M269 70%
Greek I-M170 7%
Dutch I-M170 22.2%

Thought Writes:

The hybrid Greeks are borderline Europeans.

---

...with much sub-Saharan ancestry. You can say that again.

posted 12 May 2005 03:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
...with much sub-Saharan ancestry. You can say that again.

---

You've got to be kidding me. Saying Greeks have much sub-Saharan ancestry is no better than saying East Africans are dark Mediterraneans. Studies from the likes of Arnaiz-Villa and Arthur Kemp who claim that the Greeks have black ancestry are politically motivated and outrageous.

posted 12 May 2005 03:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
You've got to be kidding me. Saying Greeks have much sub-Saharan ancestry is no better than saying East Africans are dark Mediterraneans. Studies from the likes of Arnaiz-Villa and Arthur Kemp who claim that the Greeks have black ancestry are politically motivated and outrageous.

The only significant non-European element of the Greeks is of Neolithic Levantine origin. You'd have to convince me that the Neolithic agriculturalists of the Middle East were Negroid before I even consider black Greeks.

---

Do you have a current study, to the contrary to which I was responding to?

posted 12 May 2005 03:21 PM            

I mean, read anything Dienekes writes. If there is any man who knows what the Greeks are and where they came from, it's Dienekes Pontikos. I don't care what you think about anything else he writes, but he has every right to defend the racial integrity of his own people. And he's done it well.

posted 12 May 2005 03:29 PM            

quote:

---

Why would you need a study to prove that Greeks aren't hybrids when there is no evidence that they are?

---

quote:

---

The only people I can think of who want the Greeks to be Caucasian-Negro hybrids are Afrocentrists like Richard Poe and Nordicists like Arthur Kemp. These people are hostile to the Caucasian nature of the peoples of the Mediterranean for political reasons.

---

posted 12 May 2005 03:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Yes Arthur Kemp, Erroneous E and Dienekes are racist losers. But that doesn't answer Supercar's question nor have any bearing on what was said. You are stalling.

---

Don't patronize me, please, it's unnecessary as I'm plenty prepared to defend myself. But like I said before in another thread, I don't have as much experience in genetics as I would like. I talk about race from physical anthropologic perspective only because I have more interest in it.

I'm not prepared to just magically pull a genetic study out of my arse and say "Voila, you've been had, madam!" And I don't think I should have to anyway, since the assertion that the Greeks are Negroid has never been substantiated anyway. It's those who think the Greeks are Negroid who should have to prove their case, not me or anyone else with any sense.

The only component of extra-European variation into Greece is Neolithic in origin, and that's a discussion best left for the other thread.

posted 12 May 2005 04:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
I already told all of you once that I'm not a geneticist. I talk about race only because I have a slight interest in it.

---

That's fair enough.

quote:

---

I'm not prepared to just magically pull a genetic study out of my

---

That's also fair, however you are making very specific contentions which contradict the current scientific scholarship.

If you are not prepared to back-up these contentions, then perhaps you should be equally cautious about making them?

quote:

---

And I don't think I have to anyway, since the assertion that the Greeks are Negroid has never been substantiated anyway.

---

Straw-argument since you were objecting to the substantiated FACT that the Greeks have ancestry from Sub-sahara Africa. Negroid and caucasoid as 'race' catagories are outdated non scientific terms and therefore cannot be substantiated. No one here has claimed that the Greeks, or anyone else belong to a "Negroid race."
It is Erroneous Euro, and you, who assert the existence of pseudo-scientific race constructs - caucasoid, and negroid.

quote:

---

Why should I have to do any of the work?

---

Because you denied a proven fact - that greeks have sub-saharan ancestry.

And you assert a non-scientific fallacy, the notion of a 'caucasoid' race.

You have the burden of proof regarding both your denial in face of the fact of Greek sub-saharan African ancestry, and your assertion of the pseudo-scientific concept of 'caucasoid' race.

You have failed on both counts - providing emtotional rhetoric but no evidence.

posted 12 May 2005 04:14 PM            

I think that it was a mistake for me to come hoping to discuss physical anthropology with a group of people who don't believe in Caucasoids and Negroids. Evil Euro wasted his time trying to defend himself here. I won't follow in his footsteps. Our opinions of race are about as different as Creationism and Atheism. I just want to say that just because something is old doesn't mean it's completely wrong and unsalvageable. Such is the case with physical anthropology. So with that I bid thee all farewell.

P.S.- Though I appreciate posts from more objective people like Ausar and TopDog who seem to have a genuine interest in Africa.

posted 12 May 2005 04:22 PM            

quote:

---

I don't want to argue with someone who doesn't believe in a Caucasian race because that would be a waste of my time

---

Caucasoid Of or relating to the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use. - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

posted 12 May 2005 04:24 PM            

quote:

---

Evil Euro wasted his time trying to defend himself here. I won't follow in his footsteps

---

posted 12 May 2005 04:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Caucasoid Of or relating to the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use. - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

'Believe in' is the correct choice of terms, since caucasoid race is an ideology, and not a science. And in this ironic sense, I agree with you....you are wasting your time.

---

posted 12 May 2005 04:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
It's only an ideology because of the state of the world in which we have lived in this past quarter of a century is hostile to the notion of racial differences. Ever heard of political correctness? That's reality, though. Like I said: we're night and day. Farewell, Rasol. I wish you success in life. I'm going back to Dodona. May you all rest in black heaven.

---

posted 12 May 2005 04:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keins:
LOL

---

posted 12 May 2005 05:01 PM            

quote:

---

It's only an ideology because of the state of the world in which we have lived in this past quarter of a century is hostile to the notion of racial differences.

---

Actually caucasian race was an ideology from it's inception. The 'ideology as science', rooted in, among other things, a Euroasian origin of the human race...in the caucasus mountains region, has been proven wrong, over and over again, on point after point.

It's simply a descredited idea, and that is why science has been forced to abandon it.

quote:

---

Ever heard of political correctness?

---

Yes, it is your crutch for presenting no evidence, because you don't have any, because your ideology is invalid and has been rejected by modern science.

quote:

---

That's reality, though. Like I said: we're night and day. Farewell, Rasol. I wish you success in life. I'm going back to Dodona.

---

Where Dienekes & co can abuse your mind with pseudo-anthropological claptrap and all the lies that you want to hear, repleat with outdated sources, 'fake maps', and twisted, mangled rewrites of scientific abstracts.

Yes, you should be quite safe there.

Cheers!

posted 12 May 2005 05:05 PM            

These are all from previous discussions, which Evil failed to address, so maybe you’ll have better luck in addressing them.

Origins of E3b:
the mrca of E3b is dated at 24-27 thousand years ago and named eastern Africa as the probable place of origin. -Cruciani.
E3b entered Europe from the MiddleEast during the Neolithic (15-20 thousand years after the E3b mrca, 25-30 thousand years after mrca of 1st Europeans) and it's distribution pattern reflects this fact:

• 25% of Y chromosome in Greece,
  
• 15% in Italy,
  
• less than 10% in Spain,
  
• under 5% E3b in most of NorthWest Europe
  
• under 1% in Nordic Europe.
  

And again,

Thought Posts:
Al-Zahery et al.
2003
"...the J clade without mutation M172....haplogroups R-M269 (R1b1) and I-M170 (Hg I), very frequent in Europe, are the MAIN DETERMINANTS OF the first principle component which clearly SEPARATES the European populations from others."
Semino et al.
2000
Population Haplogroup Frequency
Greek R-M269 27%
Dutch R-M269 70%
Greek I-M170 7%
Dutch I-M170 22.2%
Thought Writes:
The hybrid Greeks are borderline Europeans.

Angel’s findings:

Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers....probably FROM NUBIA via the predessors of the Badarians - Larry Angel

Note that sampling in Greece also shed some light to HbS (of sub-Sahara African origin) presence:

The Benin haplotype accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily,4 Northern Greece,10 Southern Turkey,11 and South West Saudi Arabia,6,7 suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa. The Asian haplotype is rarely encountered outside its geographic origin because there have been few large population movements and Indian emigrants have been predominantly from non HbS containing populations. However, it is of interest that the Asian haplotype was first described among descendants of Indian indentured laborers in Jamaica.12 The disease now occurs against diverse genetic and environmental backgrounds, which provide experimental models for investigating the mechanisms of the clinical and hematological variability of the disease. – Courtesy of Graham R. Serjeant, MD, FRCP

4. Ragusa A, Lombardo M, Sortino G, et al. ßs gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: implications for gene flow. Am J Hematol 1988;27:139-41.

6. El-Hazmi MAF. Beta globin gene haplotypes in the Saudi sickle cell anemia patients. Human Heredity 1990;40:177-86.

7. Padmos MA, Roberts GT, Sackey K, et al. Two different forms of homozygous sickle cell disease occur in Saudi Arabia. Br J Haematology 1991;79:93-8.

10. Boussiou M, Loukopoulos D, Christakis J, Fessas Ph. The origin of the sickle cell mutation in Greece: evidence from bs globin gene cluster polymorphisms. Hemoglobins 1991;15:459-67.

11. Aluoch JR, Kilinç Y, Aksoy M, et al. Sickle cell anaemia among Eti-Turks: haematological, clinical and genetic observations. Br J Haematol 1986;64:45-55.

You didn’t answer accordingly the first time I asked, rather, I got one of those emotional answers. So let’s try again: do you have up-to-date peer-reviewed corroboration to the contrary to each of the above?

posted 12 May 2005 05:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
I don't want to argue with someone who doesn't believe in a Caucasian race because that would be a waste of my time and yours. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

---

Caucasoid is an intellectually bankrupt term, particularly when dealing with indigenous populations of parts of the globe, who have no relation with the Caucasus whatsoever.

quote:

---

Mike the Hellene:
I think that it was a mistake for me to come hoping to discuss physical anthropology with a group of people who don't believe in Caucasoids and Negroids.

---

It would equally be a waste of time trying to discuss such terms within the community of modern bio-anthropologists, a discipline which rightfully and logically discards these terms.

quote:

---

Mike the Hellene:
Evil Euro wasted his time trying to defend himself here. I won't follow in his footsteps.

---

There are two types of cowardice in discussions: One who bails out, upon the inability to address an issue(s), and another who simply doesn't address the issue(s), but rather repeats long discredited ideology, which in other words, means trolling.

Mike's attitude can be described in terms of the former, while Evil fits the bill of the latter.

quote:

---

Mike the Hellene:
Our opinions of race are about as different as Creationism and Atheism. I just want to say that just because something is old doesn't mean it's completely wrong and unsalvageable. Such is the case with physical anthropology. So with that I bid thee all farewell.

---

You are mixing apples with oranges. Bio-anthropology and religion don't mix, and so, the comparison is a fruitless one. One is a systematic discipline, and the other is rather subjective.

quote:

---

Mike the Hellene:
P.S.- Though I appreciate posts from more objective people like Ausar and TopDog who seem to have a genuine interest in Africa.

---

Funny though, I doubt that either of these people deny what has been presented on the Greeks (if they did/do, surely they would point it out, and provide corroboration to the contrary), as you just did. You have been unable to address the issue, and so, your way out, is to bail out.

posted 12 May 2005 05:56 PM            

Tutsi, from Wally's website.

Carleton Coon's Arabian Caucasoids provide excellent example of the shattering of the caucazoid myth.

Genetically, the Tutsi are African to the core, virtually 100% in terms of Y chromosome lineage.

At root, the caucazoid myth depends utterly on the notion of whites being the 1st people to evolve...in Europe, and hence the source of genes and phenotypes which spread around the globe.

The reality of Recent Out of Africa, affirmed by genetics, linguistics, archeology and physical anthropology has delt and ABSOLUTELY CRUSHING blow to this notion.

posted 12 May 2005 06:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Permit and assist

Tutsi, from Wally's website.

[b]Carleton Coon's Arabian Caucasoids provide excellent example of the shattering of the caucazoid myth.

Genetically, the Tutsi are African to the core, virtually 100% in terms of Y chromosome lineage.

At root, the caucazoid myth depends utterly on the notion of whites being the 1st people to evolve...in Europe, and hence the source of genes and phenotypes which spread around the globe.

The reality of Recent Out of Africa, affirmed by genetics, linguistics, archeology and physical anthropology has delt and ABSOLUTELY CRUSHING blow to this notion.

This is why hapless trolls like Erroneous' can no longer even define what terms like 'caucazoid' are supposed to mean, and when they try, they merely entagle themselves in maddenning contradictions[/B]

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I checked dodona website, It's quite disappointing, Topdog is very courageous to deal with such naive people. Although people defending the Caucasian myth are quite polite, I have the impression that they don't have enough knowledge in genetics. They keep showing the same pictures: Alpine, Dinaric, Atlantide races, which is deeply disturbing. I sincerely tried to look for any subtleties in the different facial features, but sincerely they are all the same. You absolutely can compare that foulishness with the diversity among africans. If I see a Nuer, a Somali, or a San, or a Nigerian, or a Zairian, it's direct even for a non african. My Non African friends can often recognize differences among africans whereas it's much more difficult if you take two Europeans with the same type of hair.

Relaxx

[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 12 May 2005).]

posted 12 May 2005 07:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:

I checked dodona website, It's quite disappointing, Topdog is very courageous to deal with such naive people. Although people defending the Caucasian myth are quite polite, I have the impression that they don't have enough knowledge in genetics. They keep showing the same pictures: Alpine, Dinaric, Atlantide races, which is deeply disturbing. I sincerely tried to look for any subtleties in the different facial features, but sincerely they are all the same. You absolutely can compare that foulishness with the diversity among africans. If I see a Nuer, a Somali, or a San, or a Nigerian, or a Zairian, it's direct even for a non african. My Non African friends can often recognize differences among africans whereas it's much more difficult if you take two Europeans with the same type of hair.

Relaxx

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posted 12 May 2005 08:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

You'd have to convince me that the Neolithic agriculturalists of the Middle East were Negroid before I even consider black Greeks.

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Thought Writes:

I sure-fire way to discover a TROLL is that they refuse to define their terms in debates. Mike, why is it taking you so long to define what "negroid" and "caucasoid" means?

posted 12 May 2005 09:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:

I checked dodona website, It's quite disappointing, Topdog is very courageous to deal with such naive people. Although people defending the Caucasian myth are quite polite, I have the impression that they don't have enough knowledge in genetics. They keep showing the same pictures: Alpine, Dinaric, Atlantide races, which is deeply disturbing.

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Thought Writes:

The results from modern science/genetics does not provide their desired outcome, hence they have ressurected outdated Racial Classification systems and utilize them in an almost religious manner.

posted 12 May 2005 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I sure-fire way to discover a TROLL is that they refuse to define their terms in debates. Mike, why is it taking you so long to define what "negroid" and "caucasoid" means?

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Because I didn't know you wanted me to until just a few minutes ago. I replied to your question in the other thread.

posted 12 May 2005 09:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The results from modern science/genetics does not provide their desired outcome, hence they have ressurected outdated Racial Classification systems and utilize them in an almost religious manner.

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Insightful observation as the religous cult aspects come thru clearly from Mike's posts.

He talks about Dienekes having 'every right' to 'defend the racial integrity' of the greeks.

He has no clue as to how that sounds.

That's not the scientific method, it's straight out of the facist manifesto . Oh my.

posted 12 May 2005 09:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I sure-fire way to discover a TROLL is that they refuse to define their terms in debates. Mike, why is it taking you so long to define what "negroid" and "caucasoid" means?

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Because I didn't know you wanted me to explain what the characteristics of the type were until just a few minutes ago. I thought the first time you just wanted me to tell you about the types traditionally defined as Caucasoid. But I replied to your question in the other thread, anyway.

And I'm not a troll. I don't need to resort to harrassment when people don't agree with me. I'd never sink that low, especially on a subject as irrelevant to my Christian faith as race. God sees all people the same way.

posted 12 May 2005 09:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

I replied to your question in the other thread.

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Thought Writes:

Which thread Mike?

posted 12 May 2005 09:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Which thread Mike?

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The Hawass King Tut one, I think.

posted 12 May 2005 09:36 PM            

quote:

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Dienekes is just tired of Nordicists and Afrocentrists lying about Greeks

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posted 12 May 2005 09:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

His concern about the Greek race

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 12 May 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

The 'Greek Race'?????

posted 12 May 2005 09:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The 'Greek Race'?????

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posted 12 May 2005 09:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Surely you can figure out what I mean by the context. Yes, I mean the Greek people in general

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Thought Writes:

The Greek people in general carry Sub-Saharan Y-Clades in a frequency approaching ~25% of their gene pool.

posted 12 May 2005 10:01 PM            

I knew I had to have gotten that broad nose of mine from somewheres!

posted 12 May 2005 10:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

Which is exactly why the Greek people have strong Negroid features.

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 12 May 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

I don't know about this, but it is obvious given the low frequency of Hg I among modern Greeks that most of their paternal lineage is non-European. R1a1 and Hg J are SW Asian lineages. E3b is Sub-Saharan.