posted 01 May 2005 12:22 PM            

quote:

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Theories postulating the very early emergence of racial differentiation have been advanced (e.g., C. S. Coon , The Origin of Races, 1962), but they are now scientifically discredited. "

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Coon's discredited ideology asserted that ancient 'caucasians' migrated into East Africa from Asia, and subsequently...'turned black'.

Genetics has revealed that East African Nilotics and Cushites are indigenous.

These are the people who, along with West Asians, migrated into Europe and helped jump start the Neolithic [agriculture] in Greece.

Much of Greek paternal chromosome reflects the heritage [African E, West Asian J] of these peoples.

And that leads us to CL Brace's revealing remark:
"From the observation that 12,000 years was not a long enough period of time to produce any noticeable variation in pigment by latitude in the New World and tht 50,000 years has been barely long enough to produce the beginnings of gradation in Australia one would have to argue that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been "equatorial" [ie - dark skinned] for many tens of thousands of years."

This wasn't a 'problem' for Eurocentrists, when they imagined East Africans as migrants into Africa from Eurasia many 10's of thousands of years ago.

And then genetics revealed the ancient, indigenous and shared ancestry of these Black Africans....whose lineages [and skeletal features!] turn up in Southern Europe along with Neolithic tehnique, the result is - CHECKMATE and GAME OVER for Eurocentrism.

And that is why they work so hard to prevent others from knowing what they themselves know to be true.

posted 01 May 2005 01:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

It's Middle Eastern and African peoples who have changed in the millennia since the Neolithic, during which time they've become adapted to a warming climate (ending up in the southern fringe of pigmentation Zone 2 and the northern part of Zone 1) -- and in the case of East Africans even acquired Negroid elements from the West.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:

Please provide us with a peer-reviewed study that proves the Horn of Africa was non-tropical during the period in question?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

I haven't the slightest idea what you're babbling about or how it pertains to the information I posted.

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posted 01 May 2005 02:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:
quote:

Furthermore, please provide the specific Y-Chromosomal and mtDNA lineages in Somali and Oromo that indicate West or Central African admixture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evil E:
quote:

They have L1, L2, A, B, and some E(xE3b). I can't believe you're still trying to deny the Caucasoid affinities of Ethiopians and Somalis. You are one delusional Afronut...

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Thought Posts:

Kivisild et al
2004

Oromo mtDNA:

L1b 6%
L2a 14%

Salas et al
2002

"The main puzzle is the almost ubiquitous haplogroup L2a, which we suggest may have become prevalent somewhere in north Central Africa, spreading BOTH east and west along the Sahel belt ~ 20,000 years ago at the peak of the LGM (or somewhat earlier)."

Sanchez et al. 2005

Oromo Y-Chromosome

A 10.3%
E3a 0%

Thought Writes:

L2a spread to East Africa BEFORE the dispersal of E3b out of East Africa and hence cannot be associated with any "Bantu" dispersal.

Haplogroup A is a clade shared by Ethiopians and Khoisan's and also PREDATES the TMRCA of E3b.

Hence the fact remains, the Oromo carry the highest frequencies of E3b, they are obviously Black African AND little to none of their genetic lineage can be traced to a "Bantu" migration.

posted 01 May 2005 02:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Prognathism and broad noses in primitive peoples are not indicative of Negroid ancestry...

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Thought Writes:

"Primitive people", we are discussing the Neolithic NOT the Upper Paleolithic. You are being dishonest. **REAL** Europeans had spread far into Northern Europe prior to the LGM and had adapted to her climes before being pushed south into the southern refuge areas during the LGM. When they pushed back south into these refuges they brought the signature European haplogroup Hg I with them. You would have us believe that Europeans had been living in Europe for over 40,000 years and had not lost their tropical African features by the early Neolithic period. Silly!

The early neolithic Greeks have high frequencies of African Hg E and Middle Eastern Hg J and low frequencies of European Hg I because they were a hybrid group. This fact is reflected in their skeletal morphology as Angel noted.

posted 01 May 2005 02:42 PM            

quote:

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Your statement is also inconsistent because you would have us believe that Neolithic Greeks **CAN** have a tropical African phenotype and African derived genes (Hg E) and still be "Caucasoid

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posted 01 May 2005 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

...not to mention the presence of L mtdna including L1, L2 and L3 in parts of "100% caucasoid" southern Europe in frequences of greater than 10%.

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Thought Writes:

This clearly demonstrates Evil E's inconsistances. This is why he refuses to define what he means when he uses the terms 'Caucasoid' and 'Negroid' and why he refuses to lay out a chronology for the evolution of these features.

Either way Evil E has once again cornered himself into a situation where he will be forced to contradict. If the "primitive" Neolithic Greeks had 'Negroid' features as Angel clearly stated then they were not 'Caucasoid' or conversly 'Caucasoids' did not evolve until after the neolithic period and hence played no part in the establishement of 'civilization'.

posted 01 May 2005 04:14 PM            

quote:

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Evil:
Prognathism and broad noses in primitive peoples are not indicative of Negroid ancestry, which is why Angel uses a lower case "n" to describe those traits.

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posted 01 May 2005 09:30 PM            

quote:

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Thought writes, the fact remains, the Oromo carry the highest frequencies of E3b, they are obviously Black African AND little to none of their genetic lineage can be traced to a "Bantu" migration.

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...and most certainly not to non-existant prehistoric East African caucazoids.

In his desperation to improve his miserable lot, Erroneous tries to reverse the issue and question the Africaness of East Africans via its genetic centrality [so called intermediacy].

So here's yet another lesson for learning impaired, ethnophobic Erroneous Euro:

This pattern of variation suggests that ALL NON-AFRICANS* derive from a single common ancestral population which migrated out of Northeast Africa - Tishkoff

* ALL NON AFRICANS does not equal caucazoid.

There is more genetic diversity in any single African village than in the whole world outside Africa, which proves that the world's entire non-African population must be descended from a relatively small sub-set of Africans. There isn't as much non African diversity because there wasn't much genetic material to begin with. But Africans are descended from a far larger population, providing greater genetic diversity. - Spencer Wells

West African:

Non African [Indonesia]:

The East African, Oromo are "intermediate" between the above two peoples:

As for whites.....

primitive, stone-age human came to Europe, in two waves of migration beginning about 40,000 years ago. Their numbers were small and they lived by hunting animals and gathering plant food.

About 24,000 years ago, the last ice age began, with mountain-sized glaciers moving across most of Europe. Paleolithic Europeans retreated before the ice, finding refuge for hundreds of generations in three areas: what is now Spain, the Balkans and the Ukraine. - PA Underhill.

claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

Pre-historic whites of East Africa do not exist.

posted 02 May 2005 01:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:

J.L. Angel -

"In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen (14%!!!!) Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.)"

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil E:

Prognathism and broad noses in primitive peoples are not indicative of Negroid ancestry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

...and most certainly not to non-existant prehistoric East African caucazoids.

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Thought Writes:

Evil E's latest blunder is that he would have us believe that 'Caucasoid' traits had not evolved by the time of the European early neolithic (~9,000 KY) and that this is the reason why Neolithic Greeks have 'Negroid' traits as Angel CLEARLY states. Then out of the other side of his mouth he claims that Mesolithic East Africans (~14,000 KY) really were 'Caucasoid'. Is he saying that 'Negroids' came from Europe and 'Caucasoids' came from Africa or is he simply insane from racism?

posted 02 May 2005 01:34 AM            

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Friedrich_Blumenbach

Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (May 11, 1752 - January 22, 1840) was a German physiologist and anthropologist.

J.F. BlumenbachHe was born at Gotha, studied medicine at Jena and graduated in 1775 with his MD thesis De generis humani varietate nativa (On the Natural Varieties of Mankind, University of Göttingen), which is considered one of the most influential works in the development of subsequent concepts of human races.

He was appointed extraordinary professor of medicine in Göttingen in 1776 and ordinary professor in 1778. His later works included Institutiones Physiologicae (1787), and Handbuch der vergleichenden Anatomie (1804).

On the basis of his craniometrical research (analysis of human skulls), he divided the human species into five races: the Caucasian or white race, the Mongolian or yellow, the Malayan or brown race, the Negro or black race, and the American or red race. Apart from physical characteristics, he assigned psychological characteristics.

In Blumenbach's day, physical characteristics like skin color, cranial profile, etc., went hand in hand with declarations of group character and aptitude. The "fairness" and relatively high brows of "caucasians" were held to be apt physical expressions of a loftier mentality and a more generous spirit. The epicanthic folds around the eyes of "mongolians" and their slightly sallow outer epidermal layer bespoke their supposedly crafty, literal-minded nature. The dark skin and relatively sloping craniums of "ethiopians" were taken as wholesale proof of a closer genetic proximity to the primates, despite the fact that the skin of chimpanzees and gorillas beneath the hair is whiter than the average "caucasian" skin and that orangutans and some monkey species have foreheads fully as vertical as the typical Englishman or German.

Blumenbach's work included his description of sixty human crania (skulls) published originally in fasciculi as Collectionis suae craniorum diversarum gentium illustratae decades (Göttingen, 1790-1828).

This classification and the scientific concept of human races was widely accepted for about two hundred years, but in the late twentieth century, Homo sapiens sapiens came to be seen as monotypic, i.e. not being divisible into races or subspecies

Later in life Blumenbach encountered in Switzerland 'eine zum Verlieben schönen Négresse' ('a negro woman beautiful enough to fall in love with'). Further anatomical study led him to the conclusion that 'individual Africans differ as much, or even more, from other individual Africans as Europeans differ from Europeans'. Furthermore he concluded that Africans weren not inferior to the rest of mankind 'concerning healthy faculties of understanding, excellent natural talents and mental capacities'.

Unfortunately these later ideas were far less influential than his earlier assertions with regard to the perceived relative qualities of the different so-called races.

Blumenbach died in Göttingen.

posted 02 May 2005 01:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

"Further anatomical study led him to the conclusion that 'individual Africans differ as much, or even more, from other individual Africans as Europeans differ from Europeans'."

---

Thought Writes:

Hence even the person who came up with the idea of classifying humans along 'racial' lines upon further analysis discovered that BOTH Europeans and Africans have phenotypic diversity. East and West Africans have variable cranial morphologies based upon inter-African climatic and probably dietery reasons. Northern and Southern Europeans on the other hand diverge because of gene flow into southern Europe via Africa and the Middle East. And this is only reasonable, Europe is much smaller than Africa, yet the people in Europe are phenotypically almost as variable. Cliamte and diet alone would not facilitate such variability, especially when one considers that ALL Europeans came out of one of three refuges at the end of the ice age. The Greeks can trace the bulk of their Y-Chromosome lineages to Neolithic dispersals. Other southern Europeans have ancient African heritages as well.

Thought Posts:

Y-Chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and Acores

Goncalves et al.
2005

"The presence in Portugal of both A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West Africa lineages). These findings either suggest a **PRE-NEOLITHIC** migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry E3a, which is a major component in North Africa today. TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 KY favours the first scenario..."

posted 02 May 2005 07:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Please provide us with a peer-reviewed study that proves the Horn of Africa was non-tropical during the period in question?

---

What period? The Neolithic? The post-Neolithic? What are you talking about? Africa was dryer and cooler up until the Holocene. Then it underwent a warming period leading to the current tropical climate. This has already been covered.

quote:

---

Hence the fact remains, the Oromo carry the highest frequencies of E3b, they are obviously Black African AND little to none of their genetic lineage can be traced to a "Bantu" migration.

---

Not necessarily Bantu, but other Western, Central and Southern African elements.

Howells writes:

The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have been changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes.

quote:

---

Evil E's latest blunder is that he would have us believe that 'Caucasoid' traits had not evolved by the time of the European early neolithic (~9,000 KY) and that this is the reason why Neolithic Greeks have 'Negroid' traits as Angel CLEARLY states.

---

You really don't know anything, do you? Said "negroid" traits are throwbacks to a more primitive human form. Of course, Caucasoids were fully evolved by the Neolithic, but some had retained primitive traits. That still holds true today. The Irish, for example, often exhibit prognathism, and Upper-Paleolithic types often have broad noses, giving them a "negroid" appearance.

I'm sorry, but that passage from Angel doesn't mean what you want it to mean. You're just going to have to look for your self-esteem elsewhere. Blacks had nothing to do with Levantine agriculture or the Greek beginnings of Western Civilization. All they've ever produced is this:

posted 02 May 2005 07:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
You proved nothing as usual and failed completely to address Zakrzewski's findings, because...you can't. Your 'reply' is moot.

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There's nothing to address, bitch. However, you have yet to address this...among other things.

quote:

---

Of course that is NOT a quote from Howells, but rather, your idiot babblement, for which only YOU are responsible.

---

Ho-hum...

The DISPOP results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these skulls. Display of POPKIN distances (infra) reinforces this and seems to find nearer neighbors among such more generalized populations as Peru, Guam, or Ainu, but also Europeans or even Easter Island.

Remembering that the Teita series (Bantu speakers of southeastern Kenya), and the recent East African skulls in table 4 above, do clearly exhibit African affiliations, it is fair to say, contra Rightmire, that there seems to be no clear continuity here in late prehistory. On the broad scale, looking at an "Out-of-Africa" scenario, one would expect that, in some region between southern and northeastern Africa, some differentiation would have been taking place within a Homo sapiens stock, evolving into something beginning to approximate later Sub-Saharan peoples on the one hand, and evolving in another direction on the other hand. East Africa would be a likely locale for appearance of the latter. So anyone is welcome to argue that this is what Elmenteita et al. are manifesting. The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have been changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes.

quote:

---

Erroneous continued failure to answer indicates admission of propaganda fraud - to traffic in ideas which one knows to be false. What's taking so long?

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Ask the authors of the encyclopedia. I didn't write it. Dumb ape.

quote:

---

Your temper tantrum is amusing, and further lowers the bar regarding the "fruitcake factor" which keeps you mired in zero credibility land.

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Translation: You still have no answer.

quote:

---

However it does not exactly refute the facts related by Professors Angel, Keita and McCown, now does it?

---

It refutes your and Keita's idiotic misinterpretation of Angel's use of the term "negroid".

quote:

---

...not to mention the presence of L mtdna including L1, L2 and L3 in parts of "100% caucasoid" southern Europe in frequences of greater than 10%.

---

That's only in Southern Portugal. Northern Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. have less than 2% Negroid admixture -- the same as the rest of Western Europe.

quote:

---

And then genetics revealed the ancient, indigenous and shared ancestry of these Black Africans....whose lineages [and skeletal features!] turn up in Southern Europe along with Neolithic tehnique, the result is - CHECKMATE and GAME OVER for Eurocentrism.

---

If that were anything more than a low-self-esteem-Negro fantasy, you would surely have some answers by now.

That's CHECKMATE and GAME OVER for Afrocentrism.

posted 02 May 2005 07:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Try to quote the entire quote:

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Try to learn how to read. What's scientifically discredited is "theories postulating the very early emergence of racial differentiation", not humans' eventual differentiation into races. Here's the whole paragraph:

posted 02 May 2005 08:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
You proved nothing as usual and failed completely to address Zakrzewski's findings, because...you can't. Your 'reply' is moot.

---

quote:

---

Erroneous writes: There's nothing to address, bitch.

---

quote:

---

rasol writes: Of course that is NOT a quote from Howells, but rather, your idiot babblement and misrepresentation, for which only YOU are responsible.

---

quote:

---

Erroneous Euro writes: Ho-hum...

---

quote:

---

rasol writes: Erroneous' continued failure to answer indicates admission of propaganda fraud - to traffic in ideas which one knows to be false. What's taking so long?

---

quote:

---

Erroneous latest excuse: Ask the authors of the encyclopedia. I didn't write it.

---

You cited it, response to

quote:

---

Thought writes: Now give us **YOUR** definition of this term that **YOU** use.

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You are not only a propaganda phony...you are an INCOMPETENT propaganda phony.

Learn to read and 'think' about your rubbish before you post it, in desparation.

Since you've renounced your own citation, we must again insist that you define your terms.

The question stands...

quote:

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Thought writes: Now give us **YOUR** definition of this term that **YOU** use.

---

posted 02 May 2005 08:32 AM            

Sicilian architecture, lol......

posted 02 May 2005 08:41 AM            

The genetic evidence refutes this. Since 'Negroid' to you is seen as having western, central, or southern African elements, Somalis have low to none of the following so whats your excuse for excessively parroting Dienekes?

posted 02 May 2005 08:48 AM            

quote:

---

However it does not exactly refute the facts related by Professors Angel, Keita and McCown, now does it?

---

quote:

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Erroneous writes: It refutes your and Keita's misinterpretation of Angel's use of the term negroid.

---

quote:

---

...not to mention the presence of L mtdna including L1, L2 and L3 in parts of "100% caucasoid" southern Europe in frequences of greater than 10%.

---

quote:

---

Erroneous writes: That's only in Southern Portugal.

---

quote:

---

If that were anything more than a low-self-esteem fantasy

---

Your low self-esteem.

Your Fantasy.

posted 02 May 2005 08:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Try to learn how to read. What's scientifically discredited is "theories postulating the [b]very early emergence of racial differentiation", not humans' eventual differentiation into races. Here's the whole paragraph:

"All human groups belong to the same species (Homo sapiens) and are mutually fertile. Races arose as a result of mutation, selection, and adaptational changes in human populations. The nature of genetic variation in human beings indicates there has been a common evolution for all races and that racial differentiation occurred relatively late in the history of Homo sapiens. Theories postulating the very early emergence of racial differentiation have been advanced (e.g., C. S. Coon, The Origin of Races, 1962), but they are now scientifically discredited."[/B]

---

I guess you missed the last part where it says Coon's theories are discredited but it didn't stop you from posting his discredited trash about Aurignacan Man in East Africa and 'East African Caucasoids'

quote:

---

The only thing "outdated" about Coon are some of his theories, which have been disproven. But that goes for all of the old anthropologists, including the Afronut favorites. Coon's observational data is as valid today as it was when he compiled it. He looked at skeletal remains from Pleistocene East Africa, and saw that they were Caucasoid. Nothing speculative about that. Just a cold, hard fact.

---

Your hero even said that if Neanderthal man were clean shaven and dressed up he can even pas for a modern European, yes Coon has very valid observational data!

posted 02 May 2005 12:23 PM            

quote:

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Not necessarily Bantu, but other.....elements.

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STOP SPINNING, DIZZY FOOL

the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been "equatorial" [Black] for many tens of thousands of years." - CL Brace

-claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

posted 02 May 2005 01:35 PM            

quote:

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Accepting that assumption would slow down these silly threads.

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Professor, please feel free to excuse yourself from this 'silly thread' if you have nothing useful to contribute to it.

And given the above quote - which indicates your laughable inability to properly formulate even a single coherent sentence, be assured...you don't.

posted 02 May 2005 01:53 PM            

quote:

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only rasol can insult 90% of the historians

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no just you. run along now, you bore me.

posted 02 May 2005 03:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

What period? The Neolithic? The post-Neolithic? What are you talking about? Africa was dryer and cooler up until the Holocene. Then it underwent a warming period leading to the current tropical climate. This has already been covered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rasol:

Incorrect and moot, since Africa has always had tropical UV levels, tropical desert, tropical savanna and tropical forest, and this is DISTINCT from the glacial cycle, to which you are erroneously and simplisticly trying to relate it.

East Africa has actually had greater UV during the peak of some past glacial cycles, and lesser during periods of glacial retreat.

The Southern Hemisphere has had greater UV during certain periods when the North has had less. The tropics have had greater UV when the high latitutudes have had less. Africa itself has been warmer and cooler wetter and dryer than it is today several times over the course of human history, and populations have migrated to the most equatable climes throughout history.

Baby E should stick to attempting to distort anthropology as you know even less (if possible) about meteorology.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TopDog:

None of what you have posted made any references to Africa so I don't see what point you're trying to make. You're running circles all around yourself trying to prove something that can't be proven. African wasn't covered in ice.

---

Thought Writes:

E3b1 has a TMRCA of ~ 14,000 KY. Please provide a credible source that states that East Africa had non-tropical levels of UV light during the period in question?

posted 02 May 2005 03:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Not necessarily Bantu, but other Western, Central and Southern African elements.

Howells writes:

The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have been changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes.

---

Thought Writes:

Semino et al note that Hg A is a common shared lineage between Ethiopians and Khoisan speakers that dates back to the Upper Paleolithic period. E3a is virtually absent in the Oromo. L2a spread to East Africa BEFORE the expansion of E3b1 out of East Africa. Howells is wrong, as the genetic profile of the Oromo reveals. They are indigenous East Africans with little to no gene flow from other areas since the beginning of the LGM. Hence it cannot be argued that the somehow changed and 'became' Black only recently.

Again, please tell us SPECIFICALLY which Central, West or Sourthern African genetic lineages in the Oromo postdate the expansion of E3b1 out of East Africa?

posted 02 May 2005 03:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

You really don't know anything, do you? Said "negroid" traits are throwbacks to a more primitive human form. Of course, Caucasoids were fully evolved by the Neolithic, but some had retained primitive traits. That still holds true today.

---

Thought Writes:

Please provide us with ONE recent peer-reviewed study that supports your 'Throwback' theory. You won't because once again it is psuedo-science.

posted 02 May 2005 07:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:
Semino et al note that Hg A is a common shared lineage between Ethiopians and Khoisan speakers that dates back to the Upper Paleolithic period.

---

Indeed,

* Erroneous quotes the now thuroughly trashed Carleton Coon to the effect that the Khoisan are supposedly unrelated to other Black Africans, (which genetics has proven wrong)

* yet he blames ancient Khoisan Haplogroup A for recently turning East Africa Black.

Anything to avoid the pesky issue of the NON-EXISTENCE of ancient East Africa whites, and the consequent fraudulent nature of his entire argument.

posted 02 May 2005 07:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Anything to avoid the pesky issue of the NON-EXISTENCE of ancient East Africa whites, and the consequent fraudulent nature of his entire argument.

---

posted 02 May 2005 08:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil E:

I'm sorry, but that passage from Angel doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

---

Thought Posts:

Paleopathology at the Origins of Agriculture
Edited by Cohen and Armelagos
1984

Health as a crucial factor in changes from Hunting to developed Farming in the Eastern Mediterranean

By J.L. Angel

"Yet energy remained for considerable cultural achievement partly derived from the fairly **HIGH** level of variability (a preamble to genetic mixture)..."

Thought Writes:

Angel claims that the 'Negroid' traits found in ~14% of the Neolithic Greek population derives from admixture via Nubia. Could he be ANY clearer! In addition the modern genetic analysis of E3b supports the pre-genetic work done by Angel, the archaeological work done by Bar-Yosef and linguistic work done by Ehret. You have nothing to stand on but insane theories about 'Caucasoid' mesolithic East Africans. The Oromo carry the highest frequencies of E3b1, they are obviously Black African AND they have few if any Central, West or Southern African lineages that POST-DATE the TMRCA of E3b1. The message is that the original people who carried E3b1 OUT of Africa were a Black African people, hence the fairly **HIGH** level of variability found among Neolithic Greeks. Later Greek periods also recieved additional waves of African lineages.

Thought Posts:

Paleopathology at the Origins of Agriculture
Edited by Cohen and Armelagos
1984

Health as a crucial factor in changes from Hunting to developed Farming in the Eastern Mediterranean

By J.L. Angel

"During the latter part of the Middle Bronze Age in Greece, the 'Royalty' at Mycenae differ so greatly from the general population that we exclude them from the overall statistics.... They show the same striking diversity of morphology (and implied origins) as the general population, then in the process of absorbing Indo-European and other new settlers, including some from Africa."

posted 02 May 2005 08:53 PM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

Angel claims that the 'Negroid' traits found in ~14% of the Neolithic Greek population derives from admixture via Nubia. Could he be ANY clearer! In addition the modern genetic analysis of E3b supports the pre-genetic work done by Angel, the archaeological work done by Bar-Yosef and linguistic work done by Ehret.

---

posted 02 May 2005 11:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:

Paleopathology at the Origins of Agriculture
Edited by Cohen and Armelagos
1984

Health as a crucial factor in changes from Hunting to developed Farming in the Eastern Mediterranean

By J.L. Angel

"Yet energy remained for considerable cultural achievement partly derived from the fairly high level of variability (a preamble to genetic **MIXTURE**)..."

---

Thought Posts:

Ancient Egypt in Africa
Edited By David O'Connor and Andrew Reid
2004

Afrocentrism and Historical Models for Ancient Greece

By Martin Bernal

"...Greece has recieved repeated outside influences both from the east Mediterranean and from the Balkans. It is this extravagant **MIXTURE** that has produced this attractive and fruitful culture and the glory that is Greece."

posted 03 May 2005 12:44 AM            

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html

Last Glacial Aridity Maximum/Maxima 22-13,000 14C y.a. (about 23,000-14,500 'real' years ago):

"In eastern and southern Africa, the general picture is of greater aridity and also a cooling of several degrees in mean annual temperature (Taylor 1992). "

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/somalia.htm

"Average temperature ranges in Mogadishu are from 23 degrees Celsius (73 degrees Fahrenheit) to 33 degrees Celsius (90 degrees Fahrenheit) all year."

Thought Writes:

Suffice to say if the mean annual temperature cooled three or four degrees (SEVERAL) during the LGM from 90 degrees to 87 degrees Somalia was still tropical during the LGM!

posted 03 May 2005 01:11 AM            

quote:

---

Thought Writes:

Suffice to say if the mean annual temperature cooled three or four degrees (SEVERAL) during the LGM from 90 degrees to 87 degrees Somalia was still tropical during the LGM!

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Just maybe in Evil's mind, this sort of temperature is enough for Africans to have completely lost skin pigmentation. From Evil's viewpoint, there is no such thing as bounds to the ridiculousness of ideas; anything goes, as along as it cheers him up or allows him to turn a blind eye to the harsh reality. LOL.

posted 03 May 2005 03:55 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Prognathism and broad noses in primitive peoples are not indicative of Negroid ancestry, which is why Angel uses a lower case "n" to describe those traits.

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Wishful thinking Mohammed. Broad noses, prognathism and nappy hair are Negroid traits. I thought you Arabs were supposed to be real racial egalitarians but now I can see how much you want to distance yourself from your Negroid heritage.

posted 03 May 2005 04:20 AM            

quote:

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From Evil's viewpoint, there is no such thing as bounds to the ridiculousness of ideas; anything goes, as along as it cheers him up or allows him to turn a blind eye to the harsh reality. LOL.

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quote:

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Top Dog writes: Before I made that post about Howells' Egyptian sample being flawed, all the people on dodona naturally assumed there was continuity of 'Caucasoids'.

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quote:

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From Charlie Bass:
Howells' crania lists as 'African' Dogon and Teita people, it contains only a fraction of the diversity in sub-Saharan African populations. Nilotes were not included in Howells' crania.

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This is relevant since Zarkrezweski, Rightmire, Bechler, Hiernaux, Kieta, A. Leathers, J. Edwards, Williams, Armelagos et. al, found early East Africans to be ancestral to modern Nilotic-elongated types.

Howells simply EVADED the obvious. The result is the kind of bizarre illogical anthropology as practised by the discredited Carleton Coon with his Caucasoid Neanderthal man and Arabian Tutsi.

This is the rubbish propaganda frauds like Erroneous grasp onto and desparately atttempt to defend.

But perhaps there are 'limits' to how far some will go to sacrifice integrity and dignity for the sake of racism.

Erroneous mentor from Deniekes pseudo-anthropology weblog weighs in:

quote:

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on Apr 7th, 2005, 3:34pm, Dienekes wrote: Perhaps they were more similar to Nilotes, but we certainly know that they were more similar to Europeans and Ainu than they were to Teita and Dogon.....ok?

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Mere dissembling.

Nilotes are Africans. They are not 'non-African'. Indigenous East Africans are the modern descendants of the ancient East Africans.

quote:

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Charlie Bass continues: Ainu even show some traits similar to Melanesians.....Archaeological and linguistic studies confirm that those early remains are ancestral to Nilotes....no source says East Africa "caucasoids".

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Good posts Bass.

posted 03 May 2005 07:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Topdog:
African architecture, Touba Mosque Senegal

Sicilian architecture, lol......

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Fool, those structures are from 17th and 18th century Puglia, not contemporary Sicily, and they're a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The "African" architecture from Senegal is a mosque, i.e. Arabic.

What I posted is true, contemporary, sub-Saharan African "architecture":

posted 03 May 2005 07:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Topdog:
I guess you missed the last part where it says Coon's theories are discredited

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I guess you still can't read. It says that Coon's theory "postulating the very early emergence of racial differentiation" has been discredited. That's all.

quote:

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The only thing "outdated" about Coon are some of his theories, which have been disproven. But that goes for all of the old anthropologists, including the Afronut favorites. Coon's observational data is as valid today as it was when he compiled it. He looked at skeletal remains from Pleistocene East Africa, and saw that they were Caucasoid. Nothing speculative about that. Just a cold, hard fact.

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posted 03 May 2005 08:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
E3b1 has a TMRCA of ~ 14,000 KY. Please provide a credible source that states that East Africa had non-tropical levels of UV light during the period in question?

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I realize that African mental inferiority requires things to be repeated several times before the negro brain can process them, but this is getting ridiculous. The current warming period began in the Holocene. Before that, the African climate was dryer and cooler:

quote:

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Howells is wrong, as the genetic profile of the Oromo reveals. They are indigenous East Africans with little to no gene flow from other areas since the beginning of the LGM.

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Analysis of three RFLPs of the COL1A2 (Type I Collagen) in the Amhara and the Oromo of Ethiopia.

"The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position."

An anthropogenetic study on the Oromo and Amhara of central Ethiopia

"...the Oromo and Amhara appear quite similar to Europoids (particularly to the South Arabians) and considerably different from the Negritic peoples."

quote:

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Please provide us with ONE recent peer-reviewed study that supports your 'Throwback' theory. You won't because once again it is psuedo-science.

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It's not a theory, you dumb ape. And you're not going to find it advanced in any specific study. What a moron you are. A better idea would be for you to provide sources corroborating your (mis)reading of Angel. Post some anthropological or genetic studies that, in no ambiguous terms, refer to a sub-Saharan, Negroid racial component in Greece. Show me a Y-chromosome or autosomal map in which Greeks cluster anywhere near sub-Saharan Africans, and away from Europeans/Caucasoids. You can't because none exist. Even Angel himself doesn't support your Afronut interpretation of his work.

J. Lawrence Angel on Morphological Types of Greeks

Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks

posted 03 May 2005 08:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Prodigal:
Wishful thinking Mohammed. Broad noses, prognathism and nappy hair are Negroid traits. I thought you Arabs were supposed to be real racial egalitarians but now I can see how much you want to distance yourself from your Negroid heritage.

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Shut up, Genghis.

Eyelid Form

This feature, which is so important for the differentiation of Europeoid from Mongoloid types, did not reveal any differences among Caucasian [Caucasian means from Caucasus, not 'Caucasoid'] nationalities. Observations of Georgian anthropologists showed certain distinctions of Caucasians from Russians: in the latter the eyefold was somewhat larger, the eye slit somewhat narrower and the position of the orbit a little more inclined. However, it is doubtful if one can consider these characters as being posessed by all Northern Europeoids. The results obtained by the Baltic Expedition, in which the author participated, showed that the Lithuanians, for example, do not disclose any difference from the Caucasians in regard to eyelid structure. In all probability, the distinctions of Russians from Caucasians should not be explained by the fact that the eyelid structure of Northern Europeans is different from that of Southern Europeans, but by the fact that the Russians absorbed elements which are characterized by some Mongoloid traits.

-- Debets G.F., Anthropological Investigations in Daghestan, in Contributions to the Physical Anthropology of the Soviet Union, p. 87

posted 03 May 2005 08:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Fool, those structures are from 17th and 18th century Puglia, not contemporary Sicily, and they're a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The "African" architecture from Senegal is a mosque, i.e. Arabic.

What I posted is true, contemporary, sub-Saharan African "architecture":

[b]Caption: "Family hut -- saplings covered with cow-dung and river sand mix, goat skins over roof"[/B]

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Wrong you idiot, Arabs never stepped a foot in Senegal, the same can't be said for Sicily however. And that picture you keep spamming the board with in all you posts is just one type of sub-Saharan structure built by nomadic people who never settle permanently in any place. Too bad you forgot about this http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~tloos/Africa/gz.html

posted 03 May 2005 08:26 AM            

You used this map...

....to advance the false claim that the Lemba......"group with caucazoids" yet when shown pictures of the Lemba....

[whom you were obviously completely clueless about]..... you reverse yourself and claim that they are not caucazoid.

You claim that the East Africans are "hybrid", yet you keep posting this chart......

...which groups East African Ethiopians with all other Black Africans [and shows the Berber as intermediates] in complete contradiction to your own claims - which you quite obviously do not take seriously.

Your posts on Africa Climate history are shallow, banal, and do not properly addess the subject, which is off-point at any rate given: East Africans have been equatorial [dark skinned] for many 10's of thousands of years. - CL Brace.

Your opinions remain incoherent.

posted 03 May 2005 08:51 AM            

"2. The Etruscans decided to conquer the tribes in mid-Italy (Latium), where Rome was/is situated. Rome was a village of mud huts built around the Palatine Hill, with the Tiber River flowing nearby, when the Etruscans came."

3. The Etruscans civilized the Romans, and turned Rome into a small city made of brick. Several Etruscan kings ruled the Italic cities. The Tarquin aristocracy ruled Rome.

http://www.mrmarks6.com/historicalTour/indexRome.html

Now the Touba Mosque. It was built by black African Muslims of the Mouride Islamic Brotherhood. Read:

"Touba is modern in the architectural and urbanistic sense of the term. The building of Touba’s large central Mosque was initiated in 1926 and completed in 1963. The laying out of a city to surround this shrine is an even more recent phenomenon, marked by three successive planning schemes: 1958-63, 1974 and 1994. Both the central shrine and the city have been built using modern methods and materials, exemplified by such processes as recourse to building contractors, the use of reinforced concrete and, more recently, the creation of a Geographic Information System to manage real-estate transactions and the distribution of public utilities."
http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/ferguson-centre/text/archive/textmorconfabpg42.htm

posted 03 May 2005 08:56 AM            

quote:

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Thus Arabs have nothing to do with the Touba Mosque, yet outsiders[Etruscans] literally did have something to do with Italy. Nubians built in stone and brick while Rome was still a mudhut city. If you do not know anything about African architecture pick a BOOK AND READ ABOUT IT

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Kush

posted 03 May 2005 10:41 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:

E3b1 has a TMRCA of ~ 14,000 KY. Please provide a credible source that states that East Africa had non-tropical levels of UV light during the period in question?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

I realize that African mental inferiority requires things to be repeated several times before the negro brain can process them, but this is getting ridiculous. The current warming period began in the Holocene. Before that, the African climate was dryer and cooler:

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Thought Writes:

Setting aside the racist junk, I reiterate:

E3b1 has a TMRCA of ~ 14,000 KY. Please provide a credible source that states that East Africa had non-tropical levels of UV light during the period in question?

Saying East Africa was a **FEW** degrees cooler during the LGM does not make the UV level non-tropical. Your running out of options to support your weak 'hypothesis'.

posted 03 May 2005 10:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought:

Please provide us with ONE recent peer-reviewed study that supports your 'Throwback' theory. You won't because once again it is psuedo-science.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Evil E:

It's not a theory, you dumb ape. And you're not going to find it advanced in any specific study.

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Thought Writes:

I knew it was racist psuedo-science!

posted 03 May 2005 11:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Post some anthropological or genetic studies that, in no ambiguous terms, refer to a sub-Saharan, Negroid racial component in Greece.

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Thought Writes:

The American Association of Physical Anthropologists has rejected the concept of race outright. The term 'Negroid' as C.L. Brace mentioned is a racial term and is useless. Hence those who still ascribe to this worldview are marginal, fanatics who use psuedo-science to justify their feelings of racial hate. Luis et al. 2004 clearly state that E3b originated in 'Sub-Saharan' Africa and spread to Europe/Greece.

posted 03 May 2005 12:33 PM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:
I knew it was racist pseudo-science!

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He hasn't figured out yet that we are using him to conduct a study of racist pseudo-science, the fallacies of their arguments, and the mentality that drives them.

He thinks he's actually 'debating'.