posted 18 April 2005 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
First Super car, its not a questionable claim, its mainstream history.

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It is questionable; it doesn't make coherent sense.

Eurocentric perspectives, which you call mainstream, are known to have grotesque distortions. We have all seen examples of this time and again, and that point was made in the introductory notes, which again, interestingly escaped your attention.

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Horemheb:
I can post quotes from the book but it would be better if you read the book first, which would put us both on the same page.

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In case you aren't aware of it, we are in a discussion board. You can recommend all you want, but what is important, is for you to prove that you know what you are talking about. The same goes for your understanding of the "Rubenstein book", which is meaningless, unless you can utilize it in the discussion. You haven't been able to do that to date.

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Horemheb:
If you don't have time to read the book I'll post some of his comments.

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You just do that; its been long over due. I am sure you also realize that just because Rubenstein says something, doesn't make it unquestionable. His comments will be subject to full scrutiny, because there are scholars and historians that state otherwise, and have been able to provide solid corroboration. We need to see Rubenstein's corroboration for such an interesting claim.

posted 18 April 2005 01:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
SC, I'll bring the book in the morning an post some of his stuff.

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...and here we are, thinking that you had already read the book, and have the material available to support what you are trying to say.

quote:

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Horemheb:
Secondly, there is no such thing as a Eurocentric historian.

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Right; criminals don't exist likewise.

posted 18 April 2005 01:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I'll tell you what Super car...you read the book. I'm tired of your crap. the information is avilable....you can take it or leave it.

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There is no "take it or leave it" situation here; there is no substitute for corroboration. You can either make a solid case, or you can't.

We are waiting on how the so-called Greek material disappeared from Europe! LOL. Telling us because the Church discouraged some rational thinking, everyone in Europe suddenly just said 'let's drop dead; to hell with learning'. Were they really that barbaric?

Show us how science stayed still, and that, what was translated from Arabic sources, was what the Greeks left.

Explain how the Arabs were able to burn, and at the sametime preserve the so-called Greek material.

Explain, how the Arab-Muslim scholars were able to still get the so-called Greek material in Europe, when it just so happens that, it disappeared.

It will certainly be interesting how one rules out the available direct translations of the so-called Greek material into Latin by Europeans, not the Arabs, in the early middle age during the so-called dark ages.

posted 19 April 2005 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri~:
[b] What about Apuleius among other Amazigh authors who wrote in
Latin as members of the Roman Empire?

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It's like saying that sub-saharan africans rule USA because condolizza rize has a good job in the american goverment.

Black americans work for the western civilization and are westeners. not bantu, not sudanese, not chadic, they are english speaking of USA. their race and origins do not matter.[/B][/QUOTE]

Don't know how you got "ruling" out of my instance of showing
"contribution." But as for rule maybe al Murabitun and al Muhadde
and even the Fatamids(I think) are examples that the Imazighen weren't
unable to achieve some level of civilization as an ethnic group.

posted 20 April 2005 01:43 AM            

More quotes from various scholars...

Robert Briffault, in the "Making of Humanity":

"It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. North Africa, the Middle East and Islamic Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, Europe had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Islamic world; Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that this new life; science - arose; a life that was to grow into a new phase of human evolution."

"While Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world, its fruits were slow in ripening and unfortunately did not directly benefit its inventors. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into its pre-Islamic twilight did the giant (Science), which it had given birth to, began to rise in its might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influences from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European Life.”

George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science" :

"During the reign of Caliph Al-Mamun (813-33 A.D.), the new concept of learning reached its climax. The monarch created in Baghdad a regular university called the 'House of Wisdom' for translation & research. It was equipped with a vast library and several laboratories. It was in these laboratories that the scientific method was born.

"The first mathematical transformation from the Greek conception of a static universe to the Islamic one of a dynamic, expanding universe was made by Al-Khwarizmi (780-850), the founder of modern Algebra as well as of the ‘Arab’ numerals the west uses today. He enhanced the purely arithmetical character of numbers as finite magnitudes by demonstrating their possibilities as elements of infinite manipulations and investigations of properties and relations".

"The importance of Khwarizmi's algebra was recognized, in the twelfth century, by the West, - when Girard of Cremona translated Khwarizmi’s theses into Latin. Until the sixteenth century this version was used in almost all European universities as the principal mathematical text book. But Khwarizmi's influence reached far beyond the universities. We find it reflected in the mathematical works of Leonardo Fibinacci of Pissa, Master Jacob of Florence, and of Leonardo da Vinci."

"One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fil-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine".

"We know that when, during the crusades, Europe at last began to establish hospitals, they were inspired by the Arabs of the near East, who had had hospitals for centuries....The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the crusade in 1254-1260."

"And then there was Al_kindi. (800-873 C.E.). In mathematics, he wrote four books on the number system and laid the foundation of a large part of modern arithmetic. He also contributed to spherical geometry to assist him in astronomical studies".

"Very little was known on the scientific aspects of music in his time. He was the first man in history to understand and write books on the role of mathematics in sound and in music. He was a prolific writer, the total number of books written by him was 241, the prominent among which were divided as follows: Astronomy 16, Arithmetic 11, Geometry 32, Medicine 22, Physics 12, Philosophy 22, Logic 9, Psychology 5, and Music 7.

He was known as Alkindus in Latin and a large number of his books were translated into Latin by Gherard of Cremona. Al-Kindi's influence on development of science and philosophy was significant in the revival of sciences in that period. In the Middle Ages, Cardano considered him as one of the twelve greatest minds on earth. His works, in fact, lead to further development of various subjects for centuries, notably physics, mathematics, medicine and music".

French Orientalist Dr. Gustav Lebon:

"It must be remembered that no science, either of Chemistry, Physics or any other, was discovered all of a sudden. The Arabs had established over one thousand years ago their laboratories in which they used to conduct experiments, called al-chemy, and published their discoveries, without which lavoisier (erroneously accredited by some westerners as being the founder of chemistry) would not have been able to produce anything in this field. It can be said without fear of contradiction that owing to the researches and experimentation of Muslim scientists, modern chemistry came into being and that it produced great results in the form of modern scientific inventions.

Joseph Hell in the "Arab Civilization":

"In the domain of trigonometry, the theory of Sine, Cosine and tangent is an heirloom of the Arabs. The brilliant epochs of Peurbach, of Regiomontanus, of Copernicus, cannot be recalled without reminding us of the fundamental labor of the Arab Mathematician Al-Battani, (858-929 A.D.)." (END)

The Arabs were accomplished in mathematics, chemistry, physics, medicine, philosophy, and most notably astronomy. Most Westerners think instantly of Copernicus, Galileo, or of the early Greek philosophers who worked to advance astronomical knowledge, but the contributions made by the Arabs are largely either overlooked or falsely assigned to later European astronomers. In reality, the golden era of Islamic astronomy that took place during the middle ages is of immense importance to the development of modern astronomy. Not only did the Arabs keep alive the works of the Greek and Indian astronomers before them, but they also improved upon and added to this knowledge in various significant ways. In addition, their translated works paved the way for the Copernican revolution.

Although there is no exact date for the beginning of the era of Arabic dominance in the realm of astronomy, it is generally agreed upon that by the end of the eighth century A.D. Islamic scholars had assimilated most of both Greek and Indian astronomy into their body of knowledge. They had translated many Greek texts and incorporated Greek theories into their own texts, all by the early 9th century A.D. It is hard to give an exact explanation of just how the Arabic interest in astronomy developed at this point, but there are many identifiable contributing factors. First of all, the sudden rise in astronomical interest occurred shortly after the remarkable expansion of the Islamic empire. This meant, among other things, that the invading Arabs had increased access to Greek astronomical texts which they could more easily translate. Secondly, a "renaissance of culture" is said to have occurred, starting in the beginning of the ninth century A.D. after the overthrow of the Umayyads by the Abbasids. This cultural rebirth is characterized mainly by an increased interest in the sciences (especially astronomy and chemistry) on behalf of the government. Rulers began to sponsor astronomical research through such activities as building observatories and funding scholars. Thus, the phenomenon may be at least partially explained by this conjunction of a succession of rulers who actively supported astronomical research and the increased availability of both Greek and Indian astronomical data, theories, and observations.

There are also numerous factors that must be looked at in order to understand why astronomy was so important to the people and rulers of the Islamic empire. The factor that is the most significant would be the connection between astronomy and the religion of Islam. Astronomy was imperative to the calculation of the Islamic calendar, which is lunar; it was the muslim arabs who developed the first correct lunar calendar in the world at this time. Astronomy was also necessary in the calculation of the correct times of prayer during the day, as well as the qibla, the direction to Mecca.

Luckily, this sudden burst in astronomical interest occurred at a time when astronomy was declining in Europe. The Roman empire was dissolving, and societies were beginning to focus more and more on Christianity and less and less on the works of the pagan Greeks. It is the prevailing opinion of most scholars that were it not for the assimilation of Greek astronomy by the Arabs, much of it would have been lost or at least forgotten. However, instead of having the extensive work of the Greeks and Indians stay static and unused throughout the middle ages, it was not only kept in use but significantly improved upon.

There are those who seem to be under the impression that all the Arabs ever contributed to astronomy was to have preserved the knowledge and observations of the Greeks during Europe's "Dark Ages", only to hand this information back to them at a later date so that the Europeans could continue advancing the science of astronomy. This, however, is entirely untrue. The Arabs advanced astronomy significantly during the middle ages. Not only did they take pre-existing theories and instruments and improve upon them, but they also invented entirely new theories and made their own discoveries. For example, although both the astrolabe and celestial globe were first invented by the Greeks in their original crude forms, far more sophisticated instruments were developed in medieval Islam. The astrolabe was ameliorated and fine-tuned so considerably that by the beginning of the tenth century it had been developed to the point that it could be used for approximately 300 problems in geography, spherical trigonometry, and mathematical astronomy, and to be "sophisticated enough to be useful for any latitude" [Anon.].
From this ongoing improvement of the astrolabe, the Arabs later developed an instrument called the quadrant. This instrument was sophisticated to the point that it was said to be useable to solve "all standard problems of spherical astronomy" [Anon.]. They also developed other new instruments as well, such as ones that could be used to determine the time of both day and night as well as the pendulum clock.

On a more theoretical basis, numerous inventions and discoveries were made in medieval Islam. We owe our current numerical system to them, as do we owe them most of our current knowledge of trigonometry. One great Islamic scientist alone, Abu'l-Wafa Muhammad al-Buzjani, is credited with introducing many new concepts into the field of trigonometry, the most important being the identification of the secant and cosecant. Scientists such as Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad Ahmad al-Biruni wrote many treatises on new mathematical and astronomical methods. This important Islamic astronomer, mathematician, and geographer who lived from 974 to 1048 A.D. invented several methods of representing the surface of a sphere on a plane, namely azimuthal equidistant projection and globular projection. Many others worked on making detailed observations of the heavens and using this data to develop mathematical equations and rules on the movements of celestial bodies, paying special attention to the movements of the moon. Other astronomers, such as Nasir al-Din al Tusi, undertook the task of reforming Ptolemaic astronomy. Overall, during the entire span of the middle ages there were many entirely new concepts introduced by the Arabs. By the end of the middle ages they had contributed immensely to the body of astronomical and mathematical knowledge.

A new school of thought emerged in the late 13th century that in itself constitutes a revolution. It is referred to as the Maragha Revolution, and it has been described as "an essential link to Copernican astronomy without which Copernican astronomy will be hard to explain" [Anon.]. The Maragha Revolution was, to put it simply, a rejection of many of Ptolemy's statements, and a sudden surge of new ideas and theories to replace incorrect Ptolemaic assertions. Thus, it turns out that the Arabs had come to many of the same conclusions as Copernicus well before Copernicus' time, although the astronomers of the Arabic Maragha school were still working within the confines of a geocentric model. Nonetheless, these astronomers were the ones who corrected many of Ptolemy's mistakes and made the first real moves towards the final realization of the true workings of the solar system. It is for this reason that many have firmly declared that Copernicus was influenced by the Arabic Maragha school.

In conclusion, the contributions made by the Arabs during the middle ages to the field of astronomy are not only great in number, but also in importance. This period served to enrich humanity's level of scientific understanding of the world. Medieval Islam accomplished very much in way of science and astronomy, from the beginning period of translation of Greek and Indian texts, through the golden era of new discoveries and refinement of pre-existing knowledge, right up until the time of the great European renaissance. Although we may tend to overlook and underemphasize this period in the evolution of humanity's knowledge, it nevertheless remains true that it was an era of huge importance..."

posted 20 April 2005 06:55 PM            

Astrolabes
http://www.profweb.qc.ca/dpelletier/AstronomieCompl/Module07/Image/astrolabe.jpg
http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/zone30/Classiques_des_sciences_sociales/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_5_gif/fig_231_25.gif