posted 31 July 2005 10:59 AM            

quote:

---

euroscum:
E3b is found at frequencies of over 50% only in fully Caucasoid North Africans like Kabyle and Middle Atlas Berbers, and partly Caucasoid East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis. It is not found substantially in any fully Negroid Sub-Saharan Africans. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).

---

Not only is this immaterial, it is actually a pristine example of pseudo-science and intellectual bankruptcy, which of course, doesn't begin to address the following, concerning recent sub-Saharan genes in borderline europeans:

From Semino et al,

"Southern Italy (Apulia and Calabria) contains sites of the early Neolithic period (Whitehouse 1968), but we know from history that these regions were subsequently colonized by the Greeks (Peloponnesians). To test the relative contribution of Greek colonists versus putative earlier Neolithic settlers, an admixture analysis (Bertorelle and Excoffier 1998) was performed, using E-M78 and J-M172(xM12) as signatures of Greek and Anatolian lineages, respectively. The Anatolian source population was based on 523 Turks, of whom 118 were J-M172(xM12) and 25 were E-M78 (Cinniolu et al. 2004). The Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17 of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data). In spite of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78 frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that (44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring microsatellite haplotypes (A. Novelletto, personal communication) typical of Hg E-M78 (Cruciani et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study…

…Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa."

From Sanchez et al.,
"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup...

Although the Horn of Africa is considered a geographic part of sub-Saharan Africa, we have analysed the Somali population separately in order to compare the results with previously published data from other African populations."

Semino et al,

German
E3b 6.2%, I 37.5%, J 0%, R1b 50%

Polish
E3b 3.6%, I 23.6%, J 0%, R1b 16.4%, R1a 56.4%

Greek
E3b 22.4%, I 7.9%, J 21%, R1b 27%, R1a 11%

Lebanese
E3b 25.8%, I 3.2%, J 29%, R1b 6.4%, R1a 10%

So conclusion: ginney europussy, no immaterial stuff will save the day for your pseudo-science school of thought.

posted 31 July 2005 12:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
E3b is found at frequencies of over 50% [b]only in fully Caucasoid North Africans like Kabyle and Middle Atlas Berbers, and partly Caucasoid East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis. It is not found substantially in any fully Negroid Sub-Saharan Africans. This fact has yet to be refuted (because it can't be).

On the Y-chromosome Greeks, Italians and Spaniards cluster with Brits, Germans and Czechs:

Conclusion: E3b denotes Caucasoid ancestry and has nothing to do with the disgusting savages and slaves of West, Central and South Africa.[/B]

---

posted 31 July 2005 03:37 PM            

quote:

---

Stupid-Euro barks:
Conclusion: E3b denotes Caucasoid ancestry and has nothing to do with the disgusting savages and slaves of West, Central and South Africa.

---

Ignorant and profane insults aside, why does this mut desperately try to cling on to his "caucasoid" E3b lie?

posted 01 August 2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
E3b carried mainly by East Africans is a sister clade of E3a which is carried mainly by West Africans, in the same way that R1b carried mainly by Western Europeans is a sister clade of R1a carried mainly by Eastern Europeans.

---

No. R1a and R1b split much more recently, and both went in the same direction (toward Europe). A more a propos analogy is with R and Q. Those two lineages split from M45 in Central Asia about the same time E3b and E3a split from PN2. Q went east and became associated with Mongoloids, while R traveled west and became associated with Caucasoids. Same situation as with E3a going southwest to become Negroid-affiliated, and E3b traveling northeast OOA to become Caucasoid-affiliated.

quote:

---

E3b is found in substantial amounts, not just in the Horn region of Somalia and Ethiopia, but also among Kenyans and some Tanzanians.

---

posted 01 August 2005 08:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti wrote: why does this mut desperately try to cling on to his "caucasoid" E3b lie?

---

pseudoscience - does not progress.

quote:

---

E3b is found in substantial amounts, not just in the Horn region of Somalia and Ethiopia, but also among Kenyans and some Tanzanians.
The highest frequency of pristine original E3b* is found in the South African Khwe.

---

quote:

---

Steatopygia is tropical adaptation dumbhole. That whole bit about the steatopygia in OOA populations only served to further discredit you

---

Pseudoscience contradicts itself even in its own terms.

Back on the planet earth, from http://www.andaman.org

Life in an environment with strong solar radiation inevitably selects dark skin.

The dark-skinned Australian aborigines wandered from Africa through tropical Asia to Australia more than 2000 generations ago.

Throughout their wanderings they never left the belt of intense solar radiation of the lower latitudes and they are still dark.

The human race most likely came out of tropical Africa and was just as likely dark-skinned as most of Africa still is today.

In Africa, the Khoikhoi and San people are "relatively" light-skinned because they have lived in the relatively high latitudes of southern Africa for a very long time.

More from http://www.andamans.org :

Sickle-cell anemia is a genetically inherited disease widespread in Africa and also known

from other tropical and subtropical regions but unknown among Andamanese aborigines.

Unlike Southern Europeans who have Benin sickle-cell, which by definition is genetically inherited from West Africans, Andamans do not.

And why is this?

Andamans have been isolated from West Africans genetically - whereas Europeans have been repeatedly remixed with Africans so that Italians and other S. Europeans have Sub saharan African genes such as E3b and Benin Hbs.

As Dr. Keita notes: racialists models which imply nonoverlapping gene pools......are outdated. Populations should be viewed processually as dynamic entities over time time and not “static” entities. The presence of M35/215 lineages and the Benin sickle cell variant in southern Europe illustrates this well.

posted 01 August 2005 01:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by the dumb mut:
No. R1a and R1b split much more recently, and both went in the same direction (toward Europe). A more a propos analogy is with R and Q. Those two lineages split from M45 in Central Asia about the same time E3b and E3a split from PN2. Q went east and became associated with Mongoloids, while R traveled west and became associated with Caucasoids. Same situation as with E3a going southwest to become Negroid-affiliated, and E3b traveling northeast OOA to become Caucasoid-affiliated.

---

How do compare varieties of the same clade (E3a and E3b) to those of different clades, R and Q?!

How exactly do markers all of a sudden become associated with 'racial' groups?!

And since you acknowledge the PN2 transition in Sub-Sahara what racial group brought about this transition and how did it split between 'negroids' and 'caucasoids'?

I predict more bullsh**

quote:

---

Only among the Kenyan Oromo, who are ethnically related to Ethiopian Oromos. Interestingly, the Kenyan Bantu, who have ~14% E3b (which equals ~7% total admixture), are ~9% Caucasoid according to Rosenberg et al. 2002.

---

I don't know about Oromo in Kenya, but there is the Borana and other groups and all of them, including the Oromo are not caucasoid, dumb mut LOL!!

posted 01 August 2005 03:24 PM            

quote:

---

Djehuti:
I predict more bullsh**

---

It doesn't matter what bullsh** he comes up with, its immaterialness to the following has been well established:

Super car posted:
**RECENT** spread of **sub-Saharan** E3b lineages into Europe, among other things inherited, like the Benin Sickle cell.

From Sanchez et al.,
"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup...

Although the Horn of Africa is considered a geographic part of sub-Saharan Africa, we have analysed the Somali population separately in order to compare the results with previously published data from other African populations."

Mainstream anthropology, including Cruciani et al, Semino et al, Underhill et al, Keita, and so on, all concur with the following:
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).

Semino et al,

German
E3b 6.2%, I 37.5%, J 0%, R1b 50%

Polish
E3b 3.6%, I 23.6%, J 0%, R1b 16.4%, R1a 56.4%

Greek
E3b 22.4%, I 7.9%, J 21%, R1b 27%, R1a 11%

Lebanese
E3b 25.8%, I 3.2%, J 29%, R1b 6.4%, R1a 10%

Rootsi et al.
2004

"Previous studies revealed that Hg I reached frequencies of ~ 40% - 50% in two distinct regions - in Nordic populations of Scandinavia and, in southern Europe..."
"Its virtual absence elsewhere, including the Near East, suggest that it arose in Europe, likely **BEFORE** the Last Glacial Maximum..."

Thought Writes:
Sardianians are southern Europeans, yet they carry the **HIGHEST** frequency of Hg I. Greeks are southern Europeans and carry one of the **LOWEST** frequencies of Hg I. This suggests two **SEPARATE** origins for Sardinians and Greeks. Sardinians represent the **INDIGENOUS**, pre-LGM southern European type. Greeks represent a merger/hybrid type between indigenous southern European and in-migrating Middle Eastern and Black African elements.

posted 02 August 2005 07:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
How do compare varieties of the same clade (E3a and E3b) to those of different clades, R and Q?!

---

It doesn't matter what names they were given. In both cases, the markers split from a common ancestor at around the same time, traveled in different directions, and are today associated with different races.

quote:

---

How exactly do markers all of a sudden become associated with 'racial' groups?!

---

Markers carried by different groups when their racial traits developed, or mutations that arose later in already developed groups, became indicative of those races. That's how geneticists are able to trace ancestry.

quote:

---

And since you acknowledge the PN2 transition in Sub-Sahara what racial group brought about this transition and how did it split between 'negroids' and 'caucasoids'?

---

None. The split occurred before the formation of modern races. The Negroid and Caucasoid affiliations came later (see above).

quote:

---

I don't know about Oromo in Kenya, but there is the Borana and other groups and all of them, including the Oromo are not caucasoid, dumb mut LOL!!

---

posted 02 August 2005 09:21 AM            

quote:

---

How exactly do markers all of a sudden become associated with 'racial' groups?!

---

They aren't. Credible geneticists do not place racial labels on Y chromosome markers.

Dienekes Pontikos is notorious for taking genetic abstracts and other anthropological works, rewriting them, and inserting his racist inanities into them.

A few not very bright people then quote from Dienekes verbatim believing that they are correctly quoting from anthropological abstracts.

And as we've seen, you can expose these pseudos and break them, by asking them questions that force them to go beyound parrotings of Dienekes.

posted 02 August 2005 12:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
None. The split occurred before the formation of modern races. The Negroid and Caucasoid affiliations came later (see above).

---

quote:

---

Borana and Oromo are one and the same. And of course they're not Caucasoid since their mtDNA is Negroid and Khoisanid.

---

posted 02 August 2005 01:14 PM            

In Oromo myth-history- the Borana are the eldest of two Oromo clans, Borana and Barentu. The Borana language is called Borana-Arsi-Guji and is considered a variation of Oromo or even the eldest version of Oromo, which in turn is sometimes considered ancestral(?) to Somali.

The Borana number less than 5 million and live in Kenya, Ethiopia and Somalia.

posted 02 August 2005 01:49 PM            

quote:

---

euro pussy:
Markers carried by different groups when their racial traits developed, or mutations that arose later in already developed groups, became indicative of those races. That's how geneticists are able to trace ancestry.

---

...saying which, of course has no bearings on these development, right?

Super car posted:
**RECENT** spread of **sub-Saharan** E3b lineages into Europe, among other things inherited, like the Benin Sickle cell.

From Sanchez et al.,
"The frequency of haplogroup E3b1*(xE3b1b) in Somali males is the highest observed in any populations to date, and we suggest that the Somali male population is the origin of this haplogroup...

Although the Horn of Africa is considered a geographic part of sub-Saharan Africa, we have analysed the Somali population separately in order to compare the results with previously published data from other African populations."

Mainstream anthropology, including Cruciani et al, Semino et al, Underhill et al, Keita, and so on, all concur with the following:
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).

Semino et al,

German
E3b 6.2%, I 37.5%, J 0%, R1b 50%

Polish
E3b 3.6%, I 23.6%, J 0%, R1b 16.4%, R1a 56.4%

Greek
E3b 22.4%, I 7.9%, J 21%, R1b 27%, R1a 11%

Lebanese
E3b 25.8%, I 3.2%, J 29%, R1b 6.4%, R1a 10%

Rootsi et al.
2004

"Previous studies revealed that Hg I reached frequencies of ~ 40% - 50% in two distinct regions - in Nordic populations of Scandinavia and, in southern Europe..."
"Its virtual absence elsewhere, including the Near East, suggest that it arose in Europe, likely **BEFORE** the Last Glacial Maximum..."

Thought Writes:
Sardianians are southern Europeans, yet they carry the **HIGHEST** frequency of Hg I. Greeks are southern Europeans and carry one of the **LOWEST** frequencies of Hg I. This suggests two **SEPARATE** origins for Sardinians and Greeks. Sardinians represent the **INDIGENOUS**, pre-LGM southern European type. Greeks represent a merger/hybrid type between indigenous southern European and in-migrating Middle Eastern and Black African elements.

posted 03 August 2005 07:29 AM            

And of course, genetic markers like Y-chromosomes do become associated with race, and geneticists readily acknowledge this:

posted 03 August 2005 09:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
The Borana and the Oromo aren't "the same" however they are very closely related.

In Oromo myth-history- the Borana are the eldest of two Oromo clans, Borana and Barentu. The Borana language is called Borana-Arsi-Guji and is considered a variation of Oromo or even the eldest version of Oromo, which in turn is sometimes considered ancestral(?) to Somali.

The Borana number less than 5 million and live in Kenya, Ethiopia and Somalia.

The Oromo number well over 30 million and are the largest single ethnic group in East Africa.

---

From Cruciani's [2004] genetic study:

Highest frequence of cluster E-M78 was found in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%).

The three groups are related, [and to other groups as well] but are not identical, genetically and otherwise.

posted 03 August 2005 02:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[B] From Cruciani's [2004] genetic study:

Highest frequence of cluster E-M78 was found in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%).

---

The recent sub-Saharan black African ancestors of borderline Europeans, including ginney pussy of course.

posted 03 August 2005 05:02 PM            

And well, surprise, surprise, Dr. Wells as well as all the other experts on the show have been saying what you guys have been saying all along!

There were two other experts on there, one a geologist and climatologist who I forgot his name, but the other was Dr. Jablonsky.

According to the geologist: "Africa during the Ice Age was a few degrees cooler than it is now. It was probably more comfortable than it is today, but certainly not cold. It was warm and sunny but also very dry. It was a desert"

Jablonsky says: "our African ancestors had to have been very dark-skinned to survive in such a climate. They had to have lots of melanin since their bodies are getting lots of exposure to UV from the sun"

In the part of the program when Dr. Wells was in a cave in France investigating the earliest modern humans of Europe (Cromagnon), he was with a French paleoanthropologist who specializes in prehistoric cave art. One of the paintings was on the ceiling of the cave and Dr Wells suggested that the man who made it must have been very tall. The French guy answered "oh yes, he had to have been 6ft or over!"

Jablonsky says: "He still had tropical body proportions-- tall stature with skinny build..."

Dr Wells says: "The earliest Europeans vaguely resemble the Europeans of today. They gradually changed over time, with facial features and nose shape changing..."

Oh and more importantly, Dr Wells traces populations using the Y-chromosome and this is what he said about the Y to a man he sampled in Central Asia: "The Y-chromosome just determines you to be male and does nothing else, but certain information can be read to determine ancestry, at least from the male lineage..."

posted 03 August 2005 05:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Hey guys, I saw that special PBA program last night hosted by Dr. Spencer Wells called Journey of Man which was based on his book. I didn't catch the whole thing since I was out most of the night, so just bare with what I have.

And well, surprise, surprise, Dr. Wells as well as all the other experts on the show have been saying what you guys have been saying all along!

There were two other experts on there, one a geologist and climatologist who I forgot his name, but the other was Dr. Jablonsky.

According to the geologist: "Africa during the Ice Age was a few degrees cooler than it is now. It was probably more comfortable than it is today, but certainly not cold. It was warm and sunny but also very dry. It was a desert"

Jablonsky says: "our African ancestors had to have been very dark-skinned to survive in such a climate. They had to have lots of melanin since their bodies are getting lots of exposure to UV from the sun"

In the part of the program when Dr. Wells was in a cave in France investigating the earliest modern humans of Europe (Cromagnon), he was with a French paleoanthropologist who specializes in prehistoric cave art. One of the paintings was on the ceiling of the cave and Dr Wells suggested that the man who made it must have been very tall. The French guy answered "oh yes, he had to have been 6ft or over!"

Jablonsky says: "He still had tropical body proportions-- tall stature with skinny build..."

Dr Wells says: "The earliest Europeans vaguely resemble the Europeans of today. They gradually changed over time, with facial features and nose shape changing..."

Oh and more importantly, Dr Wells traces populations using the Y-chromosome and this is what he said about the Y to a man he sampled in Central Asia: "The Y-chromosome just determines you to be male and does nothing else, but certain information can be read to determine ancestry, at least from the male lineage..."[/B]

---

Thanks, I will have to see the program.

posted 03 August 2005 06:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
"The earliest Europeans vaguely resemble the Europeans of today. They gradually changed over time, with facial features and nose shape changing..."
[/B]

---

Agreed with everything he said (if it was accurately reported by Djehuti)...however, this part is really ambiguous...it might assume they changed on their own...which I doubt except for the hair and skin tone... if this is what he thinks: then even scientists can believe in myths because this is total speculations...it's called pseudosicience...but I still respect his work and his strong scientific skills...
Relaxx

posted 03 August 2005 07:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
Agreed with everything he said (if it was accurately reported by Djehuti)...however, this part is really ambiguous...it might assume they changed on their own...which I doubt except for the hair and skin tone... if this is what he thinks: then even scientists can believe in myths because this is total speculations...it's called pseudosicience...but I still respect his work and his strong scientific skills...
Relaxx

---

According to Dr. Wells, the first Europeans gradually changed in hair and eye color as well as facial features, as new adaptations.

Jablonsky explained that by the time AM humans reached Europe, they were already light-skinned but not really what we call "white" yet.

posted 03 August 2005 08:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
As with skin color, nose shapes etc.., epicanthic eyefolds are not 'racial'.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 03 August 2005).]

---

posted 03 August 2005 08:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
I read the book and even in the interview he makes the same speculation, he fails to understand that all those traits most certainly originated in Africa beside the skin tone and the hair type...
Relaxx

---

???? Actually he does understand and states that the traits originated in Africa? Why do you believe he says/thinks otherwise?

posted 03 August 2005 09:22 PM            

According to Wells, this common Central Asian ancestor split from peoples who entered India and ultimately both clades originated from the northern part of the Near-East, which in turn split from the group that combed the coasts along the southern part of Arabia to southern India, to the Sudanese subcontinent, to Australia.

posted 04 August 2005 04:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
???? Actually he does understand and states that the traits originated in Africa? Why do you believe he says/thinks otherwise?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 03 August 2005).]

---

posted 04 August 2005 04:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
In the show, Dr. Wells finds a man in Kazakstan who is the pure descendant of the common ancestor of Europeans, East Asians, Northern Indians, and Native Americans. Phenotypically, the man himself looks like a "mongoloid-caucasoid" mixed person. But according to Jablonsky, the ancestor retained African traits also.

---

That's dangerous...I hope he just sticks to phenotypes...because genetically that's total nonsense...the Andaman islanders are their true ancestors...
Relaxx

posted 04 August 2005 04:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
the Sudanese subcontinent

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 03 August 2005).]

---

posted 04 August 2005 05:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
I'm not familiar with...the world...
Relaxx

---

The biggest understatement...

...well admitting it is the first step on the right direction.

posted 04 August 2005 07:25 AM            

quote:

---

"The Borana are one of the resulting groups of Oromo migrants who left the southern highlands of Ethiopia in the 1500's. Most of the Borana and related peoples live in Ethiopia [but] approximately 90,000 live in north central Kenya" (Source)

---

SKIN COLOR OF EARLY HUMANS:

quote:

---

"Of course, nothing above is meant to imply that pre-LGM Europeans were as dark as Africans. Evidence suggests that early modern humans had a medium complexion, like that of today's Khoisan or Ethiopians. The very dark complexion of central Africans also seems to be a recent adaptation (Semino and others 2002). To be sure, prior studies had suggested Mbuti pygmies as most resembling the first moderns, but current molecular evidence points to the Khoisan and Ethiopians." (Source)

---

posted 04 August 2005 08:52 AM            

The Borana/Cushite: [Highest levels of E3b1 and E3b]

The Khwe/Khoisan [highest level - E3b*M35 in the world]:

The Masai/Nilo Saharan,- ["East African lineages of great antiquity"] - S. Tishkoff [early Eurasian tibia-femur limb ratios were more like the Masai, less like modern European or Neanderthal] - Trinkaus, E., "Neanderthal Limb Proportions and Cold Adaptation"]

The Datoga/Nilo Saharan, of Tanzania,
Ancient East African/ E3b@63% per Tishkoff/Underhill

The Hadzabe-Khoisan [another of East Africa's oldest populations, who split from other Khoisan but remained in East Africa - Tishkoff]

Skin Color in ancient Africans:

Africans have retained their dark color rather than having evolved it from a lighter color. - S. Wells, Journey of Man , pg 59

East Africans have been Equatorial [dark skined] for 10's of thousands of years - CL Brace

their skin was Black, and the intense sun killed off the progeny with any whiter skin that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein. However, the progeny of those humans who migrated North away from the intense African sun were not under the evolutionary constraint that keeps human skin black generation after generation in Africa - Rogers.

our African ancestors had to have been very dark-skinned to survive in such a climate - Nina Jablonski.

In Southern Africa,
the Khoikhoi and San people are "relatively" light because they have lived in the relatively high latitudes of southern Africa for a very long time.

Semino [2002] study on the Y chromosome history [not the skin color history] of Africans concurs with the above.

One needs to actually read studies, not cite them without reading or basic knowledge of Africa's people....
Ethiopians and Khoisan share the deepest clades of the human Y-chromosome phylogeny.

Want to learn more? Go here.

posted 04 August 2005 08:57 AM            

quote:

---

Euro Trash said...

"Of course, nothing above is meant to imply that pre-LGM Europeans were as dark as Africans. Evidence suggests that early modern humans had a medium complexion, like that of today's Khoisan or Ethiopians. The very dark complexion of central Africans also seems to be a recent adaptation (Semino and others 2002). To be sure, prior studies had suggested Mbuti pygmies as most resembling the first moderns, but current molecular evidence points to the Khoisan and Ethiopians."

---

posted 04 August 2005 09:03 AM            

quote:

---

rasol quaoted...

Africans have retained their dark color rather than having evolved it from a lighter color

---

I belive that darwinisome and the belive of eveloution has been proven to be a load load of junk....A far from the truth.

posted 04 August 2005 09:08 AM            

quote:

---

Spencer Wells:

Africans have retained their dark color rather than having evolved it from a lighter color

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
I belive that darwinisome and the belive of eveloution has been proven to be a load load of junk....A far from the truth.

---

Well.

Pseudoscience displays an indifference to facts and criterion of valid evidence.

What is stated by Spencer Wells is a fact of genetics. Difficult to refute what you don't understand to begin with.

This renders you unable to tell the difference between authentic science from Dr. Wells, and a complete pseudo who believes women carry Y chromosome.

posted 04 August 2005 11:58 AM            

E3b is a haplotype that originated in Sub-Saharan Africa only over 10,000 years ago, which means Greeks have black African ancestry!!

What's funny is that the highest concentration of E3b1 is located in the Horn among Somali males and the Borana of Kenya. So now Stupid-Euro is saying that these Africans were originally "caucasoid" but became black because of mixture from Bantus!!! LMFO

Stupid-Euro does not even know about basic facts in genetics since he claims females carry the male Y-chromosome, and he obviously does not even know basic historical and ethnographical facts about Africa to say the Bantus were ever significant in the Horn, let alone to say that Bantus were the reason why Somalis look black!!

posted 04 August 2005 01:00 PM            

quote:

---

ginney pussy:
"The Borana are one of the resulting groups of Oromo migrants who left the southern highlands of Ethiopia in the 1500's. Most of the Borana and related peoples live in Ethiopia [but] approximately 90,000 live in north central Kenya

---

posted 04 August 2005 03:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
That's dangerous...I hope he just sticks to phenotypes...because genetically that's total nonsense...the Andaman islanders are their true ancestors...
Relaxx

---

Oh no, Wells never made any description of the Kazak guy. The description was mine!! I was just stating that to show that how phenotype has nothing to do with the genetic markers that Wells uses (something dumb-euro refuses to acknowledge). But Jablonsky did indeed say that these Central Asian ancestors did possess African features.

As far as your claim to the Andamanese, I believe that they did resemble them but were much taller and lighter-skinned according to Jablonsky.

posted 04 August 2005 04:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
A lesson in indigenous peoples of ancient Tropical Africa and their direct descendants:

[b]The Borana: [highest level of E3b1 - descendant of E3b]

The Khwe [highest level - E3b*M35 in the world]:

The Masai: [early Eurasian tibia-femur limb ratios were more like the Masai, and less like modern European or Neanderthal - source:
Trinkaus, E., "Neanderthal Limb Proportions and Cold Adaptation]

The Hadzabe-Khoisan [another of East Africa's oldest populations, who split from other Khoisan but remained in East Africa - Tishkoff]

The Juhoansi/Khoisan, split from Hadza and migrated to the South Africa:

Skin Color in ancient Africans:

Africans have retained their dark color rather than having evolved it from a lighter color. - S. Wells, Journey of Man , pg 59

East Africans have been Equatorial [dark skined] for 10's of thousands of years - CL Brace

their skin was Black, and the intense sun killed off the progeny with any whiter skin that resulted from mutational variation in the receptor protein. However, the progeny of those humans who migrated North away from the intense African sun were not under the evolutionary constraint that keeps human skin black generation after generation in Africa - Rogers.

our African ancestors had to have been very dark-skinned to survive in such a climate - Nina Jablonski.

In Southern Africa,
the Khoikhoi and San people are "relatively" light because they have lived in the relatively high latitudes of southern Africa for a very long time.

Semino [2002] study on the Y chromosome history [not the skin color history] of Africans concurs with the above.

One needs to actually read studies, not cite them without reading or basic knowledge of Africa's people....
Ethiopians and Khoisan share the deepest clades of the human Y-chromosome phylogeny.

Want to learn more? Go here.[/B]

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Notice that each African group has different features from each other, which again shows that phenotype has nothing to do with these markers. Which is why even though Greeks carry Sub-Saharan markers they don't look Sub-Saharan. The only plausible explanation is that these African ancestors were absorbed by indigenous populations. It is already shown that they made their way through the Levant, no doubt intermingling with people there. Which is why Greeks also carry haplotype J.

posted 04 August 2005 04:11 PM            

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Oh no, Wells never made any description of the Kazak guy. The description was [b]mine!! I was just stating that to show that how phenotype has nothing to do with the genetic markers that Wells uses (something dumb-euro refuses to acknowledge). But Jablonsky did indeed say that these Central Asian ancestors did possess African features.

As far as your claim to the Andamanese, I believe that they did resemble them but were much taller and lighter-skinned according to Jablonsky.[/B]

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The information you are describing from Jablonsky and Wells is quite accurate and consistent with what is known.

I just think the details get lost in translation and the time frames becomes confused as well.

posted 04 August 2005 04:24 PM            

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
[b]BORANA ORIGINS:

SKIN COLOR OF EARLY HUMANS:

[QUOTE]"Of course, nothing above is meant to imply that pre-LGM Europeans were as dark as Africans. Evidence suggests that early modern humans had a medium complexion, like that of today's Khoisan or Ethiopians. The very dark complexion of central Africans also seems to be a recent adaptation (Semino and others 2002). To be sure, prior studies had suggested Mbuti pygmies as most resembling the first moderns, but current molecular evidence points to the Khoisan and Ethiopians." (Source)

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He's so stupid that he doesn't know what Africans look like and talk about them, he's never been there. He doesn't know that non mixed Africans vary from very dark to very light (like the Sans)...we still call them Black people ...and they probably would laugh if they heard that someone sitting in a chair in America who never saw a Black African in his life call them non Black.
Relaxx

posted 04 August 2005 04:36 PM            

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Which is why even though Greeks carry Sub-Saharan markers they don't look Sub-Saharan

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posted 04 August 2005 04:55 PM            

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The only plausible explanation is that these African ancestors were absorbed by indigenous populations. It is already shown that they made their way through the Levant, no doubt intermingling with people there. Which is why Greeks also carry haplotype J.

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That is exactly the case, and if you write any anthropologist they will tell you so.

Always remember: The original evidence of African and West Asian precense in neolithic Southern Europe was skeletal and archeological, from scholars such as Larry Angel, and Dorothy Garrod.

It was decades later before molecular genetics confirmed this fact. To this day, sub saharan E3b lineage is the most common male Y chromosome in Greece, and West Asian J is the second most common.

The Greeks do have mostly European maternal lineages and the patern of male biased migrations leading to founder effect [disproportunate] Y chromosome lineages is typical.

We also see this in other famous population expansions including -

the Berber expansion in NorthWest Africa,

the Bantu expansion in SouthEast Africa,

the Arab expansion in North Africa,

and the Semitic expansion in southern Africa.

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Although they vary in features, all them seem to be adaptation or at least intermingling with other Africans

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This is correct, all of the different native African phenotypes are related, and it isn't even always the case that the most similar in appearence physically are the most related biologically, and sometimes significantly different appearing Africans turn out to be rather closely related in terms of ancestry.

This is why the old notion of phenotypically defined races is defunct.

Carleton Coon's notion of race gets one paragraph of mention in Wells book - to the effect that his ideas on race are outdated and not even worth discussing.

posted 04 August 2005 04:59 PM            

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Originally posted by relaxx:
You're kidding, I live not far from a Greek neighborhood, they seem to have more curly hair and a tanned skin than the average European...they look more Arabic...it's probably due to their Sub-Saharan ancestry.

Relaxx

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Well, the E3b that Greeks have came from the Near-East from the Levant so this is no surprise.

Fact is whatever Africans migrated through these areas were absorbed by the indigenous peoples.

And as I have pointed out before, the Neolithic and Bronze Age of Greece are all Middle-Eastern derived so is it all that surprising?

posted 04 August 2005 05:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Well, the E3b that Greeks have came from the Near-East from the Levant so this is no surprise.

Fact is whatever Africans migrated through these areas were absorbed by the indigenous peoples.

And as I have pointed out before, the Neolithic and Bronze Age of Greece are all Middle-Eastern derived so is is all that surprising?

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What I meant is via the Levant and Middle East they probably received part of the phenotypes that came along...even though other groups who received some amount of foreign genes like the Lemba...don't show foreign admixture...let's say they are tanned because they live around the Mediterranean area...what about the curly hair...and other facial features similar to Middle Eastern people and to a certain extant to African people...
Relaxx

posted 04 August 2005 05:13 PM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
This is correct, all of the different native African phenotypes are related, and it isn't even always the case that the most similar in appearence physically are the most related biologically, and sometimes significantly different appearing Africans turn out to be rather closely related in terms of ancestry.

This is why the old notion of phenotypically defined races is defunct.

Carleton Coon's notion of race gets one paragraph of mention in Wells book - to the effect that his ideas on race are outdated and not even worth discussing.

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Sorry, stupid-ass Euro!

posted 04 August 2005 05:37 PM            

It's been months since I've visited this forum. It's sad to see that you're still beating the racial horse. Why so much obsession with the "Black Condition". The posts I've read have all started with a meaningful scientific premise and you immediately drag the thread through the muck and mire of race. I've never heard of white men so absorbed by the "reform" of black people... oh wait... I have. They were the slavers and missionaries that were so convinced that all their actions and theories were justified by the "white man's burdon".

I would also ask, with long proud history of various European tribes. Why do Europeans such as yourselves make such a frantic effort to place the culture and achievements of other ancient societies (i.e. Egypt and India) under the European umbrella?

posted 04 August 2005 05:43 PM            

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relaxx writes: even though other groups who received some amount of foreign genes like the Lemba...don't show foreign admixture

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Exactly,

The Lemba of Africa have a substantial genetic contribution from peoples of the Middle East, Jewish people in fact who apparently arrived in South Africa 2,000 years ago; nobody's sure exactly when-bringing genes with them which have made a substantial contribution to the gene pool of the Lemba. They look just like other southern Africans. All those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.
The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology.
-Professor of Biology Christopher Wills [PH.d], University of California

Thus we learn biology....from biologists, and not pseudos who cannot even fathom the basic X and Y chromosomes of how babies are made.

posted 04 August 2005 07:42 PM            

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Originally posted by Puro Hybrido:
So genetically everyone is black.

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