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Author Topic:   northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan location of Punt
ausar
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posted 24 March 2005 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

In the past there has been some debate about the origin and location of the land of Punt. Most theories that locate Punt in Jordan,Sinai,Lebanon,of southern Arabia have been discarded. The most likely place according to Kenneath Kitchen is northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan. One vital evidence that locates Punt within this vicinity is teff being found in 5th dyansty pyramid bricks. Teff only grows within Ethiopia/Eritrea and not within Southern Arabia,Lebanon,or Jordan.

Abyssinian milliet,Teff [Eragotrs Tef Trotter], is cultivated for it's grain only on the Ethiopian High Plataeu.

Many plants resembling it are known locally as Teff;some of them are in addition cereals which are collected[eg. E pilosa P.B.].

Apart from the recent times,this cereal has not penetrated elsewhere. The present writer has shown that the term teff was not of Semetic origin but rather of ancient Egyptian origin. Whilethe ancient Egyptians donot appear to have been familiar with the cultivation of Abyssinian Teff,they made use of Eragrostis pilosa in exactly the same as is done today in the valley of the Nile and North-East Africa[Barth 1858 and Kotschy 1862] Unger [1866-67] found grains of it in the pyramids of Dashur Pyramid[3359 B.C.] Fourth Dyansty and in the blocks of clay from the ancient town of Rameses [1400-1300 B.C.] built at the beggining of the New Empire. As a name ,Teff[tief] appears to come from 'provisions' food

page 53

Papers in African Prehistory ed. J. D. Fage and R. A. Oliver. Cambridge, 1970.

northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan

Kenneth Kitchen

The Elusive Land of Punt

The land of ?Punt? (strictly, Pwanet) was first found in Egyptian texts in the 19century; itsssociation with incense and myrrh led to identification with Arabia. Additional references (especially the superb ?Punt-scenes? of Queen Hatshepsut) pointed to East Africa; but suggested locations varied widely from Sudan to Somalia.

Egyptian data range from c.2500 to 600 BC giving Punt a long history, a range of products,and a sociology of chiefdoms. During the 3rd millennium BC (Old Kingdom), the products of Puntwere brought to Egypt by their own expeditions either along the Nile or up the Red Sea and acrossto the Nile valley via Wadi Hammamat.

.This Red Sea trade continued in the Middle Kingdom
(early 2
nd
millennium BC) via the port of Mersa Gweisis, and in the New Kingdom (later 2
nd
millennium BC). The Puntites themselves also sailed to Egypt and their products, fauna and flora
ecologically coincide with northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan. This identification
is supported by later references to the rain on the Mountains of Punt draining into the Nile flood
which thus excludes an identification of Punt in Somalia as has sometimes been suggested.
The Egypt-Punt trade-link ended after the mid-12
th
century BC. Why is unknown: a
break-up of the Punt federation? climatic change? pharaohs too poor to send expeditions? or the
new South Arabian trade up to Gaza proved more convenient for aromatics? Who knows!
Suggested further reading


Fattovich, R. (1991), The Problem of Punt in the light of Recent Fieldwork in the Sudan , Akten des
vierten Internationalen Agyptologen Kongresses, München 1985 (Schoske, S., ed.), vol. 4,
257-72. Hamburg: Buske Verlag.

Fattovich, R. (1993), ?Punt: the archaeological perspective?, Sesto Congresso internazionale di
Egittologia II, 399-405. Turin.

Kitchen, K. A. (1971), ?Punt and How to Get There?, Orientalia 40, 184-207

Kitchen, K. A. (1993), ?The Land of Punt?, The Archaeology of Africa, Food, Metals and Towns (Shaw,
T. et al., eds), 587-608. London/New York: Routledge.

Kitchen, K. A. (1999), ?Further Thoughts on Punt and its Neighbours?, Studies on Ancient Egypt in

Honour of H. S. Smith (Leahy, A. and Tait, J., eds), 173-78. London: Egypt Exploration

Society.
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/education/sheba/pdfs/sheba_abstracts.pdf


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ABAZA
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posted 24 March 2005 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is actually the most recent theory about the location of the Magical Land of Punt.

THE QUEEN OF SHEBA AND THE LAND OF PUNT

The question of whether frankincense was grown in Palestine is of historical importance for the problem of identifying God’s Land, the place to which Queen Hatshepsut traveled. Because of the frankincense, the produce of the land, the place was thought to be in southern Arabia or Ethiopia. (15)

I maintained that in Biblical times frankincense grew in Palestine. (Ages in Chaos, pp. 141, 172-173). The recent excavations at Ein Gedi disclosed that frankincense actually was grown in the tropical climate on the shores of the Dead Sea.(16)

Some of the supporting evidence came from the literature of earlier years, not exploited in Ages in Chaos. W. F. Albright came to the same conclusion:

Contemporary Egyptian inscriptions almost vanish after about 1750 B.C. and do not resume their normal flow until about 1580; Babylonian inscriptions fail us entirely after the fall of Babylon cir. 1600 and are almost completely lacking until after 1400 B.C.; Assyrian records cease about 1780 and (except for a few short inscriptions from cir. 1570-1520) do not appear again until after 1450 B.C. There are hardly any contemporary Hittite inscriptions of the Old Empire, but even later copies of early documents in the archives of Khattusas break off about 1550 and contemporary inscriptions do not begin until after 1400 B.C. In short, it is certain that there was a catastrophic interruption of the normal flow of ancient history.(17)

The Greek Septuagint (“translation of the Seventy” ) that dates from the third century before the present era and similarly the Vulgate (the earliest Latin translation) see in Shwa (Seba) the personal name of the Queen, not the name of a region (Regina Seba).

As to some Egyptian reference or references to Punt as located in the south, a point brought up by a few of my readers, the following needs to be said: the opening passage in the History of Herodotus (18) tells that the Phoenicians came to their country on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean from their original home on the shore of the Erythrean Sea, by which the Red Sea and also the Indian Ocean are known to have been meant by the Greeks. This would explain such early reference. But in another Egyptian text Punt is referred to as being to the north of Egypt.(19) Besides, we should be mindful of the fact elucidated in Worlds in Collision that in historical times the cardinal points have been—and more than once—reversed, or, as it is out in a hieroglyphic text, “the south becomes north, and the Earth turns over.” (20)

The statement of an Egyptian official from the time of the Old Kingdom that he visited eleven times Byblos and Punt (21) should not be interpreted, as some scholars wished that he went this number of times to South Arabia or Somaliland, and as many times to the Phoenician coast. Actually, the ships which in the New Kingdom traded with Punt were called “Byblos-ships” (22) Cf. also E. Danelius, “The Identification of the Biblical ‘Queen of Sheba’ with Hatshepsut, ‘Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia,’” KRONOS I.4 and II.1 (1976).

Finally, the written account of Thutmose III’s campaign to Phoenicia-Palestine uses the same geographical name: Divine Land, that we found in the travelogue of Queen Hatshepsut, from whom Thutmose took over the throne.
http://www.varchive.org/ce/newev.htm


[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Super car
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posted 24 March 2005 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Super car     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"As more Egyptian expeditions were sent deeper into Nubia, other peoples began to appear in Egyptian art with more markedly central African features, hairstyles, and characteristics. That Egyptian explorers penetrated the Sudan to a great distance at this period is suggested by the contemporary carved ivory group, preserved in the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, which was used as a child's toy. It represents three pygmy men, which could be made to dance when a string was pulled. To the Egyptians, these people were the "horizon dwellers", who were seen only once in many generations. They were famed among the Egyptians for their dancing, and when any of these people were brought to Egypt, they were made to perform "the dances of the gods." They would no doubt have come from the extreme reaches of the Upper Nile tributaries and the northern Congo area. - nubianet.org

From whom do you suppose the Kemetians got their hands on these artifacts of clearly native Africans (specifically, pygmies)? From the "Nubians"?

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 24 March 2005).]

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ausar
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posted 24 March 2005 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Still that does not explain the findings of teff in the bricks of the pyramids of Sahure. If its the most recent theory then why is it not found nor supported in any peer-reviwed literature?


Kenneath Kitchen based upon floura and fauna states Punt is somewhere in northern Eritrea.

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Wally
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posted 24 March 2005 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wally     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Land of Punt (Cradle of the Egyptian race)

The "country" of Punt was actually a region, the same region that the Ancient Egyptians referred to as "Ta Nter" or "God's Land," or quite simply the "country" of Eastern Africa, reaching as far south as Mozambique. There are Ancient Egyptian reports of their obtaining antimony in Punt, which was not produced in the Horn of Africa, but in Mozambique. (It may be noted also that "Pwani" is a Swahili word meaning "the seaside").

The Somali coast was merely a "stepping-off" point for any journey into the African interior. The products of Punt were the products of this entire East African region which, in part, explains their diversity. There exists today, however, the region of Puntland, in modern Somalia.

Pwonit;P_ounit
This word in the Mdu Ntr means "the country of the first existence" and is merely a complimentary expression for "God's Land", or the original home of the gods (ie, the ancestors).

This region was also associated with the "Nubia" of the contemporary usage:

quote:

-after inspecting the results of her (Hatshepsut) expedition, the queen
immediately presented a portion of them to Amon, together with the impost of Nubia, with which Punt was always classed.
J.H. Breasted, A History Of Egypt, Part 1, pp274-277

To the Ancient Egyptians this region;"country of the first existence"; "country of our ancestors", etc) was East Africa, or quite simply, Africa. "Ta Nter," "Punt," "Iau" are all synonyms for the same neighborhood. It wasn't a nation...


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Horemheb
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posted 24 March 2005 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Horemheb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
did they say that Wally or are you putting words in their mouths?

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rasol
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posted 24 March 2005 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

Sweeney and Velikovsky (author of Ages in Chaos) are catastrophists (as in Biblical flood), they deny legitimacy of carbon dating and other standard scientific practicise. As with the creationists, this allows them to conjur Biblical fantasy histories, and incorporate such things as Sweeney's assertion that writing did not begin until 1000BC, and no pyramids were built prior to the Jews precense in Egypt, , which allows all pre-Biblical history, including India, China and Nile Valley, to be discarded and wildly rewritten.


[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).]

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ausar
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posted 24 March 2005 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have to wonder why Egyptians went to the land of Punt to obtain pgmyies to perform the dance of god. The Egyptians even had a deity called Bes that is indicative of Central African origins. To my knowleadge there is no pgymies in Jordan or Lebanon,but there were Negritos in Southern Arabia at one time untill abosorbed into the population.


Here is an example:


The strange way Bes in which is represented has lead some scholars to think that Bes was of Mesopotamian or of African origin. The epithets "Lord of Punt" and "Lord of Nubia" also seem to point in that direction. On the other hand, Bes is known to the Egyptians from the Old Kingdom on, or before. There are no representations of or references to Bes of non-Egyptian origin found outside Egypt. [b]Bes may owe the epithet "Lord of Punt" to his dwarf-like figure: Punt, a legendary African society, was populated, among others, by pygmies.


___know why was Bes called ''The Lord of Punt''? Since when did pgmies populate anywhere but the interior of Africa save for a few negritos in other areas of Asia?


Also why did Egyptians get pgymies to preform the ''Dance of God''?

tomb, close to King Khufu's pyramid at the Giza necropolis.
[Listen] [IBM Text-to-speech]

There were two kinds of dwarfs known in ancient Egypt, the African pygmies and the Egyptian dwarfs. The African pygmies had hereditary dwarfism. These pygmies originated in the equatorial forests of Central Africa. The Ancient Egyptians brought them to Egypt from their trade stations in Nubia. The first pygmy was brought from Punt in the time of King Asosi of the Fifth Dynasty. Another was brought by Herkhuf from the land of Iam in Upper Nubia for the child King Pepi the Second.

The role of the African pygmies was to perform a dance called "the dance for god" or to dance in the royal palace to rejoice the king's heart.

The Egyptian dwarfs had a deformity in their bodies. A big head, a normal trunk, and short arms and legs characterized these dwarfs. These dwarfs were frequently placed in charge of pet animals. The Egyptian dwarfs also engaged in jewelry making.

Since the beginning of the Middle Kingdom, they served as attendants to their masters. The most famous Egyptian dwarf was Seneb, who lived during the Fifth Dynasty. He was a high official with many social, religious, and honorary titles. He was married to a normal-sized woman and he was buried in a magnificent
Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt

http://www.eternalegypt.org/EternalEgyptWebsiteWeb/HomeServlet?ee_website_action_key=action.display.module&module_id=100&language_id=1&story_id=5&ee_messages=0001.flashrequired.tex t


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Super car
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posted 24 March 2005 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Super car     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Playing the devil's advocate: Since you mentioned the negritos of southern Arabia, what is the best argument for ruling them out?

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rasol
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posted 24 March 2005 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
Playing the devil's advocate: Since you mentioned the negritos of southern Arabia, what is the best argument for ruling them out?


You can't get to South Arabia from Km.t traveling up the Nile, and from thence over land.

quote:
Rasol wites:
in the Old Kingdom the goods from Punt had been brought to Egypt on an overland route, whereby this was controlled by the people from Kerma

that in the New Kingdom again ships were sent to Punt, until Nubia was fully controlled by Egypt; thereafter, the goods came also on an overland route,


The people products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, myrrh along with Twa [Pygmies]- which excludes south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere in Africa perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia.
- ancientegypt.org


[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Super car
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posted 24 March 2005 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Super car     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Rasol wites:

You can't get to South Arabia from Km.t over land.


in the Old Kingdom the goods from Punt had been brought to Egypt on an overland route, whereby this was controlled by the people from Kerma that in the New Kingdom again ships were sent to Punt, until Nubia was fully controlled by Egypt; thereafter, the goods came also on an overland route,


The people products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, myrrh along with Twa [Pygmies]- which excludes south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere in Africa perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia. - ancientegypt.org


Good answers. Have to explore all avenues, right? I provided a clue earlier; overlooked was that the "dancing Pygmies" were made from Ivory. Not sure how much can be made of this, but how often do you get Ivory sculptures of this kind from the Arabian peninsula?

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rasol
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posted 24 March 2005 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
Good answers. Have to explore all avenues, right? I provided a clue earlier; overlooked was that the "dancing Pygmies" were made from Ivory. Not sure how much can be made of this, but how often do you get Ivory sculptures of this kind from the Arabian peninsula?

I don't know of any current scholar willing to perform the extreme geographical gymnastics necessary to move Ta Neter to Asia.

as for Velikovsky see - cranks.net [cranks crackpots cooks and loons on the net], notwithstanding.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Super car
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posted 24 March 2005 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Super car     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That indeed appears to be the consensus. Besides, Kemetian art communicates in not so subtle ways; there are Asiatics, and then there are others. As for the Asiatics, it is apparent that the Kemetians didn't regard the Puntites to be among them.

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ABAZA
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posted 24 March 2005 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All indications show that Punt was actually to the East of Egypt and probably North-East.

quote:

A stele in the mortuary temple of Amenhotep III (18th Dynasty) records a speech delivered by the god Amun, stating:

"Turning my face to sunrise I created a wonder for you, I made the lands of Punt come here to you, with all the fragrant flowers of their lands, to beg your peace and breathe the air you give."



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ABAZA
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posted 24 March 2005 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also the explanations put out by those early Egyptologists are way two convoluted to make any reasonable sense. Read this for a little more detail,

quote:


Only the above scenario makes sense of the evidence. We are informed by the queen that both the outward journey from Thebes and the return journey to the capital were by ship. In short, Punt could only be in a region accessible to Upper Egypt by water. This rules out a southern journey, since the ships would have to be abandoned at the first or second cataract. The texts, if we are to take them at face value, therefore make it clear that Punt lay to the north of Thebes, accessible by sailing downstream to the mouth of the Nile. But since most Egyptologists place Punt at the southern end of the Red Sea - a region most definitely not accessible by ship from Thebes - the textbooks are full of all sorts of convoluted explanations and 'interpretations'. Thus it is said that on the outward journey from Thebes the ships only sailed as far north as Coptos, at which point passengers and crew traveled the long distance overland to the Red Sea port of Quseir, before embarking on a fleet of different ships which then conveyed them south to Punt. For the return journey the same process is said to have been repeated in reverse.



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rasol
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posted 24 March 2005 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sure we are all intelligent people here and have basic reading comprehension skills.

"Turning my face to sunrise I created a wonder for you, I made the lands of Punt come here to you, with all the fragrant flowers of their lands, to beg your peace and breathe the air you give."

We know that some of Punt's treasures were carried over land by way of Nmay and Irem (through the modern Sudan). We also hear of the children of the chiefs of Punt that were raised at the Egyptian court alongside the children of Kush (Nubia) and Irem.

Therefore, it has been assumed that Punt was not so far away, and most modern scholars place it perhaps on Africa's East Coast perhaps only just south of Egypt. Furthermore, modern attempts to classify flora and fauna suggests that Punt may have been located in the southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia. Yet this would place Punt to the east of Nubia and there is no evidence of military conflict between Punt and Egypt, as there was between Egypt and Nubia.

One even wonders whether Punt was indeed an actual political entity through all the years between Egypt's Old and New Kingdoms, or was rather more of a generalized, perhaps encompassing a rather large area of Eastern Africa.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/punt.htm

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Wally
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posted 24 March 2005 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wally     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
did they say that Wally or are you putting words in their mouths?

You can be silly, and everyone can guess about, but the words are real,
are etched in stone, are explicit, and they are easily verifiable.

Egyptian names for Africa
The astute will notice that all of these words are synonyms

Ta Khent- Land of the beginning
Ta Khentiu- Land of the founders (chiefs, beginners, leaders...)
Khentu Hon Nefer- Founders of the good (excellent, perfect...) order
Iau- The Old country
Pwonit ("Punt")- The country of the first existence/The first country (to exist)
Ta Ntr- Land of the gods (ancestors)
Ta Noute- God's Land

Instead of being flippant, why don't you do the research and perhaps learn something...


[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 24 March 2005).]

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rasol
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posted 24 March 2005 07:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
You can be silly, and everyone can guess about, but the words are real,
are etched in stone, are explicit, and they are easily verifiable.

[b]Egyptian names for Africa
The astute will notice that all of these words are synonyms

Ta Khent- Land of the beginning
Ta Khentiu- Land of the founders (chiefs, beginners, leaders...)
Khentu Hon Nefer- Founders of the good (excellent, perfect...) order
Iau- The Old country
Pwonit ("Punt")- The country of the first existence/The first country (to exist)
Ta Ntr- Land of the gods (ancestors)
Ta Noute- God's Land

[/B]


The Book of the Dead.
The lands of the gods, and the eastern lands of Punt must be seen before they can be described and before that which is hidden (in thee) may be measured."
Vol. 1. Hymn to Ra From the papyrus of Ani. P.74. EWB

The "lands of the gods" was often mentioned in the same context as the lands of Punt. Neither place was in Egypt but somewhere outside it. The sailing route to Punt .. PWN.T ... from the earliest times was South along the Red sea coast. The location of these lands can apply equally to any area along the coast either before or beyond the Horn of Africa, or if inland where travel was "on land and water", anywhere within the highlands of modern Ethiopia or further South to the hills of Northern Somalia. For the Egyptians these were the exotic lands ... tA-nTr ... and they were filled with the fragrance of frankincense and myrrh.

To separate the "lands of the Gods" from Punt is to emphasize "mountains" and "lakes" and places of rare beauty where the rays of the solar god were particularly active and creative. These were the lands only "written about" and rarely seen. Were the Egyptian astronomers required to visit these lands of the equator to gain first hand experience.

It's really not as hard to learn as it is to force oneself to stay ignorant, however it is a matter of freedom of choice, in the end.

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ABAZA
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posted 25 March 2005 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the evidence doesn't fit with the theories, so people are two quick to disregard or dismiss the obvious signs of their weak arguments. Even, if the Queen herself identifies the Land of Punt as Lebanon/Phonecia.

quote:

But Hatshepsut herself identifies Punt with the Lebanon, and this is a fact strangely overlooked by the critics. Thus in one well-known inscription she writes;

"The myrrh of Punt has been brought to me ... all the luxurious marvels of this country were brought to my palace in one collection ... They have brought me the choicest products ... of cedar, of juniper and of meru-wood; ... all the goodly sweet woods of God's Land."[Lorton's transliteration of Texts already referred to above from Breasted (LT)]


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ABAZA
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posted 25 March 2005 01:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Cedar Tree is the most famous tree in Lebanon and yes it is the one displayed on the national flag. Well, here is a little more info as to why Punt (Lebanon) was actually the place the Egyptians called the land of the Gods and the same place where they got most of their Cedar Woods and other goodies, not to mention resin as well.

quote:

Baramki adds another dimension to the historical record when
noting that Egypt, "one of the largest timber-consuming countries
of antiquity," required cedar wood for the solar barque of Ra‏, but
it did not possess the natural resource domestically.
Indeed,
because of Egypt‏s funerary rituals and buildings, trade with
timber suppliers, such as the Phoenicians, developed. [Baramki,
p.19] Mikesell substantiates this by noting that cedar wood was,
"[P]rized by Egyptian builders of sarcophagi, coffins, and other
appurtenances of burial. In addition, resins from cedar, fir, and
pine were used in mummification."
[Mikesell, p.13] Edifices as
well as coffins throughout Egyptian and other north African
archaeological sites also bear this point out. [Harden, p.141]
Nevertheless, overland commercial trading proved to be
problematic in most instances for Egypt because of the dangers
posed by the nomadic bandits of the Sinai Peninsula and Palestine.
[Baramki, p.19] As a result, oversea trading with a maritime power
such as Phoenicia was cheaper and more reliable - not to mention
safer. Thus, a commercial relationship spawned by sea. At times,
however, the relationship was quite lopsided, as Egypt periodically
maintained control over Byblos and other nations occupying the
Levant. [Baramki, p.21] Consequently, much of the timber Phoenicia
exported to Egypt was done partly as a form of tribute.
[See above
and Baramki, p.21]

[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).]

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rasol
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posted 25 March 2005 02:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
What reasons do they base their claims on?

quote:
rasol writes:
Wishful thinking mostly. They grasp on to tidbits like the cedarwood gathered from Lebanon. Some of them want Sargon the Akadian to be the Scorpian King, and so forth... they need to counter primary reference from the Km.t[rm.t] to interior African origins. Punt was the best they could do. And, as we've shown...it's a non starter.

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ABAZA
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posted 25 March 2005 02:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Again, sailing to East Africa, would have been quite difficult indeed for the Egyptians, but the Mediterranean Sea was quite familiar and a lot easier for them to navigate.

quote:

While the Mediterranean region was easily accessible to Egyptian maritime traders, Eastern Africa was less so. Under Senusret III (1850 BCE) and a number of other pharaohs, the last being Ptolemy II, a canal was being dug and redug connecting the Nile to the Bitter Lakes, falling into disrepair during times of trouble. When no canal was available ships had to be built so they could be dismantled, carried overland through Wadi Hammamat to the Red Sea and reassembled.


The Nile cataracts were obstacles that had to be dealt with. A canal cut through rock enabled navigation beyond the first cataract, and a slipway near the fortress of Mirgissa at the second cataract has been found by archaeologists.

Dams were built too, mostly with military aims in mind. The Sadd el-Kafara in Wadi Garawi, the oldest known dam in the world, collapsed not long after its erection. Another dam was constructed at Semna probably during the reign of Amenemhet III (1841-1796 BCE) and was in use until the times of Amenemhet V, as the unusually high readings of the river level - 8 metres above normal - seem to bear out.


[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).]

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rasol
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posted 25 March 2005 02:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
You can be silly, and everyone can guess about, but the words are real,
are etched in stone, are explicit, and they are easily verifiable.

[b]Egyptian names for Africa
The astute will notice that all of these words are synonyms

Ta Khent- Land of the beginning
Ta Khentiu- Land of the founders (chiefs, beginners, leaders...)
Khentu Hon Nefer- Founders of the good (excellent, perfect...) order
Iau- The Old country
Pwonit ("Punt")- The country of the first existence/The first country (to exist)
Ta Ntr- Land of the gods (ancestors)
Ta Noute- God's Land

Instead of being flippant, why don't you do the research and perhaps learn something...


The expedition travelled by land, via Koptos and the Wadi Hammamat, to the Red Sea. From the shores of the Red Sea, the ships sailed to the south...The products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin; excluding south east Arabia. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere along the African shores of the Red Sea, perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia. - Jacques Kinnaer

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Super car
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posted 25 March 2005 02:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Super car     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Abaza, you keep failing to understand (no surprise here) that Canaan was an Egyptian controlled territory, which means that in order to have maintained control, they would have to have maintained a regular contact with the region, which could be facilitated by stationing there. There is no evidence of ancient Egyptians stationing in Punt, and no evidence that regular contact was maintained. If you do, I'd like to see the source for this!

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rasol
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posted 25 March 2005 03:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"But I will cause thy army to tread them, I have led them on water and on land, to explore the waters of

inaccessible channels, and I have reached the Myrrh-terraces. It is a glorious region of God's-Land; it is indeed my

place of delight. I have made it for myself, in order to divert my heart, together with Mut, Hathor, Wereret,

mistress of Punt, the mistress, 'Great in Sorcery', mistress of all gods". They took myrrh as they wished, they

loaded the vessels to their hearts' content, with fresh MYRRH trees, every good gift of this country, Puntites whom

the people know not, Southerns of God's-Land" - Queen Hatshepsut Ancient Records of Egypt, Historical Documents,

Vol. II, 1906

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rasol
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posted 25 March 2005 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Punt was certainly in Africa, and probably was the Somali coast. -Breasted, James Henry, Ph.D., Ancient Records of Egypt, Historical Documents, Vol. II, 1906

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ABAZA
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posted 25 March 2005 04:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ABAZA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Punic People are the People of Punt, the Phoenicians. Afrocentrics have tried to tell people that they were Black Sub-Saharan Africans, which is totally wrong.

quote:

Afrocentrism
Afrocentrism is not without blame in smothering Phoenician contribution to the ancient world. Many historians and archaeologists of that persuasion claim that the Phoenicians Canaanites themselves where sub-Saharan African based on unscientific Biblical myths or some unfounded claims. They claim that the Canaanites were Hamites or associate the Punic with native aboriginal North Africans, while the latter and/or Berber are not even sub-Saharan blacks. They, therefore, deny the Canaanites their proper place in history. Phoenicians of the Eastern Mediterranean or the Western Mediterranean (such as famous Hannibal or the Phoenicians of Carthage, Spain, Portugal, Sicily...etc.),[b] the Punic, were Semitic speaking Mediterraneans.
*


[/b]


[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).]

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rasol
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posted 25 March 2005 04:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Punt: in ancient Egyptian and Greek geography, the southern coast of the Red Sea and adjacent coasts of the Gulf of Aden, corresponding to modern coastal Ethiopia and Djibouti.

Pwonit ("Punt")- "Egyptian" The country of the first existence/The first country (to exist)

Phoenicia: ancient maritime country of southwest Asia consisting of city-states along the eastern Mediterranean Sea in present-day Syria and Lebanon

Punic: Of or relating to ancient Carthage, its inhabitants, or their language. from Latin Punicus, earlier Poenicus "Carthaginian," originally "Phoenician"

Encyclopdia Britannica, American Heritage Dictionary, EWB

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 March 2005).]

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ausar
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posted 25 March 2005 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cedar wood was not the only wood used in ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptians also used ebony wood which can only be obtained either through trade with Nubia or with Punt. Another trade item that was necessary to the ancient Egyptians was Leopard skins. Know ask yourself why Egyptians chose to adorn themselves with leopard skins that only came from regions south of Egypt?


Abaza, you still have not answered why the Egyptian deity Bes is called ''Lord of Punt'' and why pgmymies were imported from Punt to do the ''Dance of the Gods'' for the Egyptians. Again if Punt was located in Lebanon,Jordan,or Southern Arabia then why are pgmymies obtained from Punt? No pgmyies exist in either or any of these places.

The fish found on the depictions of Deir el Bahari of Hathshepsut are identified with specices around the Indian Ocean and not with any eastern Mediterranean variety.


Besides, most of the trade routes between Egypt and Palestine was ''The Way of Heru''and not by way of sea.


Also the Red Sea is not all that difficult to navigate,and many Hajjis from Luxor continue to use the Red Sea port to go to Mecca. An Egyptian exploerer from the 11th dyansty named Hennu used this same exact route and did return.

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dahlak
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posted 25 March 2005 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dahlak     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Abaza you are wrong, ausar is right. Back then egypt, aksum, india had bissness trough red sea, not meditranian. Teff grows
only in eritrea or ethiopia. Come on now abaza, the land of punt is east africa, not in lebanon or in other place. Abaza this time i disagree with you. The Red Sea had alot history about ancent times, not the meditranian sea.

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rasol
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posted 27 March 2005 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ehiopia Axum and Punt,
Gamal Nkrumah


THE ANTECEDENTS OF AXUM: The history of Ethiopia goes back a long way. The profusion of Stone Age tools and cave paintings hint at the industriousness and vibrancy of the lifestyles of the earliest Ethiopians and attests to the country's antiquity. During the Chalcolithic Age (6200-3000 BC) the inhabitants began cultivating grains and crops that are still much in use in Ethiopia today. Indigenous grasses and grains, such as teff, from which the national Ethiopian sour pancake-like moist bread is made, began to be extensively cultivated as a staple food.

The close proximity of the Ethiopian highlands to the Red Sea has always provided the main line of external communication. This stretch of water has, since time immemorial, provided a means of transport and the Ancient Egyptians recorded voyages to the Land of Punt -- God's Land. To them, Punt was the most ancient country, a sacred territory.

Queen Hatshepsut in the 18th dynasty (1540-1304 BC) dispatched a diplomatic and trading mission to Punt, beautifully depicted on her funerary temple at Deir Al-Bahri. Punt was also the source of a host of exotic goods such as gold, ivory, ostrich feathers, animal skins and hides.

AXUM: This most celebrated state of Ancient Ethiopia could, in its heyday, be compared in grandeur with the empires of Rome, Persia and Ancient China. Among the most imposing features of its material culture are monumental stelae that mark the burial catacombs of Axumite kings. Some 120 survive today -- many in a dilapidated state of disrepair. The largest is over 30 metres long, albeit no longer standing upright. It was the largest single stone ever quarried in the ancient world. The stelae of Axum are grave markers with which catacombs are invariably associated. Shafts, underground passages and chambers are always found nearby.

The Axumite empire's heartland was the highlands of northern Ethiopia and southern Eritrea. The most impressive ruins are to be found in the northern Ethiopian region of Tigray, and to a lesser extent in Eritrea. The capital, Axum, in northern Tigray still stands today -- a mere shadow of its former glory.

Axum's rulers assumed the title of Negust Nagast, King of Kings, and started minting coins that provide an interesting chronology of the rulers of Axum. No other kingdom in Africa south of the Sahara did this, and the study of the Axumite coinage system reveals much about the development of the political structure, religion and culture of the ancient empire. For example, the earliest Axumite coins bore the crescent and sun-disc, or crescent and star -- designs characteristic of the pagan religion where moon and sun worship was prevalent. Later, when Christianity was officially adopted as a state religion, the cross replaced the crescent and sun-disc as state emblems engraved on official Axumite coins. Many of the earliest coins also had Greek inscriptions but, as Axum grew in importance, the Greek inscriptions were replaced by Ge'ez inscriptions (see box).

Christianity was adopted as a state religion in Ethiopia in the fourth century AD. According to tradition, two Christian youths from Tyre, Aedesius and Frumentius, were shipwrecked on the Red Sea coast of what is today Eritrea. They were taken to Axum, became tutors of the future king, and later Frumentius left Ethiopia for Alexandria and asked the Coptic Patriarch of Egypt to send a bishop to head the nascent Ethiopian Church. Frumentius was consecrated. He assumed the name Abuna Salama, initiating a tradition, whereby the Archbishops of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church were consecrated by the Coptic Pope, which lasted until the early 1970s.

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rasol
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posted 27 March 2005 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Supercar posts:
quote:

"On the question of the export of beads from Egypt to the area within which Punt lay or with which it was in contact, reference may be made to the discovery at Nakuru in Kenya of a well-preserved short faience cylinder-bead (colour not stated) found near a body (which the great Kenyan archaeologist Louis Leakey considered to be that of achief) buried in an ultra-crouched position and painted with red ochre. m e burial belonged to a period dated by the excavator to c.1000 - 850 BC.

and...

Professor W B Emery tells-me that during the early-1920s he was shown a quantity of typically 18th dynasty blue faience cylinder-beads which had been found at an unspecified locality on the coast of Jubaland by a number of the Kenya Boundary Commission shortly after the end of the First World War. According to this official, the site - in question was strewn with fragments of human bone, and, to -judge by his description, it would appear to have been a badly denuded cemetery. Naturally, too much should not be made of such discoveries, for, these beads could have arrived in Kenya and Jubaland at a much later date. Still, their importance lies in 'their relationship to what can now be recognised as a widespread trade from the Eastern Mediterranean about 3500 years ago which probably included among its objects of barter the strings of beads, represented among the exports taken by Hatshepsut's trading expedition to the Land of Punt'." - Mustafa H. Nur; BBC.


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