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Ancient Egypt and Egyptology northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan location of Punt
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Author | Topic: northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan location of Punt |
ausar Moderator Posts: 3566 |
posted 24 March 2005 01:17 PM
In the past there has been some debate about the origin and location of the land of Punt. Most theories that locate Punt in Jordan,Sinai,Lebanon,of southern Arabia have been discarded. The most likely place according to Kenneath Kitchen is northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan. One vital evidence that locates Punt within this vicinity is teff being found in 5th dyansty pyramid bricks. Teff only grows within Ethiopia/Eritrea and not within Southern Arabia,Lebanon,or Jordan. Abyssinian milliet,Teff [Eragotrs Tef Trotter], is cultivated for it's grain only on the Ethiopian High Plataeu. Many plants resembling it are known locally as Teff;some of them are in addition cereals which are collected[eg. E pilosa P.B.]. Apart from the recent times,this cereal has not penetrated elsewhere. The present writer has shown that the term teff was not of Semetic origin but rather of ancient Egyptian origin. Whilethe ancient Egyptians donot appear to have been familiar with the cultivation of Abyssinian Teff,they made use of Eragrostis pilosa in exactly the same as is done today in the valley of the Nile and North-East Africa[Barth 1858 and Kotschy 1862] Unger [1866-67] found grains of it in the pyramids of Dashur Pyramid[3359 B.C.] Fourth Dyansty and in the blocks of clay from the ancient town of Rameses [1400-1300 B.C.] built at the beggining of the New Empire. As a name ,Teff[tief] appears to come from 'provisions' food page 53 Papers in African Prehistory ed. J. D. Fage and R. A. Oliver. Cambridge, 1970. northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan Kenneth Kitchen The Elusive Land of Punt The land of ?Punt? (strictly, Pwanet) was first found in Egyptian texts in the 19century; itsssociation with incense and myrrh led to identification with Arabia. Additional references (especially the superb ?Punt-scenes? of Queen Hatshepsut) pointed to East Africa; but suggested locations varied widely from Sudan to Somalia. Egyptian data range from c.2500 to 600 BC giving Punt a long history, a range of products,and a sociology of chiefdoms. During the 3rd millennium BC (Old Kingdom), the products of Puntwere brought to Egypt by their own expeditions either along the Nile or up the Red Sea and acrossto the Nile valley via Wadi Hammamat. .This Red Sea trade continued in the Middle Kingdom
Fattovich, R. (1993), ?Punt: the archaeological perspective?, Sesto Congresso internazionale di Kitchen, K. A. (1971), ?Punt and How to Get There?, Orientalia 40, 184-207 Kitchen, K. A. (1993), ?The Land of Punt?, The Archaeology of Africa, Food, Metals and Towns (Shaw, Kitchen, K. A. (1999), ?Further Thoughts on Punt and its Neighbours?, Studies on Ancient Egypt in Honour of H. S. Smith (Leahy, A. and Tait, J., eds), 173-78. London: Egypt Exploration Society. IP: Logged |
ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 24 March 2005 01:44 PM
This is actually the most recent theory about the location of the Magical Land of Punt. THE QUEEN OF SHEBA AND THE LAND OF PUNT The question of whether frankincense was grown in Palestine is of historical importance for the problem of identifying God’s Land, the place to which Queen Hatshepsut traveled. Because of the frankincense, the produce of the land, the place was thought to be in southern Arabia or Ethiopia. (15) I maintained that in Biblical times frankincense grew in Palestine. (Ages in Chaos, pp. 141, 172-173). The recent excavations at Ein Gedi disclosed that frankincense actually was grown in the tropical climate on the shores of the Dead Sea.(16) Some of the supporting evidence came from the literature of earlier years, not exploited in Ages in Chaos. W. F. Albright came to the same conclusion: Contemporary Egyptian inscriptions almost vanish after about 1750 B.C. and do not resume their normal flow until about 1580; Babylonian inscriptions fail us entirely after the fall of Babylon cir. 1600 and are almost completely lacking until after 1400 B.C.; Assyrian records cease about 1780 and (except for a few short inscriptions from cir. 1570-1520) do not appear again until after 1450 B.C. There are hardly any contemporary Hittite inscriptions of the Old Empire, but even later copies of early documents in the archives of Khattusas break off about 1550 and contemporary inscriptions do not begin until after 1400 B.C. In short, it is certain that there was a catastrophic interruption of the normal flow of ancient history.(17) The Greek Septuagint (“translation of the Seventy” ) that dates from the third century before the present era and similarly the Vulgate (the earliest Latin translation) see in Shwa (Seba) the personal name of the Queen, not the name of a region (Regina Seba). As to some Egyptian reference or references to Punt as located in the south, a point brought up by a few of my readers, the following needs to be said: the opening passage in the History of Herodotus (18) tells that the Phoenicians came to their country on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean from their original home on the shore of the Erythrean Sea, by which the Red Sea and also the Indian Ocean are known to have been meant by the Greeks. This would explain such early reference. But in another Egyptian text Punt is referred to as being to the north of Egypt.(19) Besides, we should be mindful of the fact elucidated in Worlds in Collision that in historical times the cardinal points have been—and more than once—reversed, or, as it is out in a hieroglyphic text, “the south becomes north, and the Earth turns over.” (20) The statement of an Egyptian official from the time of the Old Kingdom that he visited eleven times Byblos and Punt (21) should not be interpreted, as some scholars wished that he went this number of times to South Arabia or Somaliland, and as many times to the Phoenician coast. Actually, the ships which in the New Kingdom traded with Punt were called “Byblos-ships” (22) Cf. also E. Danelius, “The Identification of the Biblical ‘Queen of Sheba’ with Hatshepsut, ‘Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia,’” KRONOS I.4 and II.1 (1976). Finally, the written account of Thutmose III’s campaign to Phoenicia-Palestine uses the same geographical name: Divine Land, that we found in the travelogue of Queen Hatshepsut, from whom Thutmose took over the throne. [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 588 |
posted 24 March 2005 01:51 PM
"As more Egyptian expeditions were sent deeper into Nubia, other peoples began to appear in Egyptian art with more markedly central African features, hairstyles, and characteristics. That Egyptian explorers penetrated the Sudan to a great distance at this period is suggested by the contemporary carved ivory group, preserved in the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, which was used as a child's toy. It represents three pygmy men, which could be made to dance when a string was pulled. To the Egyptians, these people were the "horizon dwellers", who were seen only once in many generations. They were famed among the Egyptians for their dancing, and when any of these people were brought to Egypt, they were made to perform "the dances of the gods." They would no doubt have come from the extreme reaches of the Upper Nile tributaries and the northern Congo area. - nubianet.org From whom do you suppose the Kemetians got their hands on these artifacts of clearly native Africans (specifically, pygmies)? From the "Nubians"? [This message has been edited by Super car (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 3566 |
posted 24 March 2005 01:52 PM
Still that does not explain the findings of teff in the bricks of the pyramids of Sahure. If its the most recent theory then why is it not found nor supported in any peer-reviwed literature?
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Wally Member Posts: 709 |
posted 24 March 2005 01:58 PM
The Land of Punt (Cradle of the Egyptian race) The "country" of Punt was actually a region, the same region that the Ancient Egyptians referred to as "Ta Nter" or "God's Land," or quite simply the "country" of Eastern Africa, reaching as far south as Mozambique. There are Ancient Egyptian reports of their obtaining antimony in Punt, which was not produced in the Horn of Africa, but in Mozambique. (It may be noted also that "Pwani" is a Swahili word meaning "the seaside"). The Somali coast was merely a "stepping-off" point for any journey into the African interior. The products of Punt were the products of this entire East African region which, in part, explains their diversity. There exists today, however, the region of Puntland, in modern Somalia. Pwonit;P_ounit This region was also associated with the "Nubia" of the contemporary usage: quote: To the Ancient Egyptians this region;"country of the first existence"; "country of our ancestors", etc) was East Africa, or quite simply, Africa. "Ta Nter," "Punt," "Iau" are all synonyms for the same neighborhood. It wasn't a nation...
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Horemheb Member Posts: 1105 |
posted 24 March 2005 02:02 PM
did they say that Wally or are you putting words in their mouths? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 24 March 2005 02:02 PM
quote: [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 3566 |
posted 24 March 2005 02:15 PM
You have to wonder why Egyptians went to the land of Punt to obtain pgmyies to perform the dance of god. The Egyptians even had a deity called Bes that is indicative of Central African origins. To my knowleadge there is no pgymies in Jordan or Lebanon,but there were Negritos in Southern Arabia at one time untill abosorbed into the population.
tomb, close to King Khufu's pyramid at the Giza necropolis. There were two kinds of dwarfs known in ancient Egypt, the African pygmies and the Egyptian dwarfs. The African pygmies had hereditary dwarfism. These pygmies originated in the equatorial forests of Central Africa. The Ancient Egyptians brought them to Egypt from their trade stations in Nubia. The first pygmy was brought from Punt in the time of King Asosi of the Fifth Dynasty. Another was brought by Herkhuf from the land of Iam in Upper Nubia for the child King Pepi the Second. The role of the African pygmies was to perform a dance called "the dance for god" or to dance in the royal palace to rejoice the king's heart. The Egyptian dwarfs had a deformity in their bodies. A big head, a normal trunk, and short arms and legs characterized these dwarfs. These dwarfs were frequently placed in charge of pet animals. The Egyptian dwarfs also engaged in jewelry making. Since the beginning of the Middle Kingdom, they served as attendants to their masters. The most famous Egyptian dwarf was Seneb, who lived during the Fifth Dynasty. He was a high official with many social, religious, and honorary titles. He was married to a normal-sized woman and he was buried in a magnificent IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 588 |
posted 24 March 2005 02:34 PM
Playing the devil's advocate: Since you mentioned the negritos of southern Arabia, what is the best argument for ruling them out? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 24 March 2005 03:01 PM
quote:
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Super car Member Posts: 588 |
posted 24 March 2005 03:22 PM
quote: Good answers. Have to explore all avenues, right? I provided a clue earlier; overlooked was that the "dancing Pygmies" were made from Ivory. Not sure how much can be made of this, but how often do you get Ivory sculptures of this kind from the Arabian peninsula? IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 24 March 2005 04:20 PM
quote: I don't know of any current scholar willing to perform the extreme geographical gymnastics necessary to move Ta Neter to Asia. as for Velikovsky see - cranks.net [cranks crackpots cooks and loons on the net], notwithstanding. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 588 |
posted 24 March 2005 04:32 PM
That indeed appears to be the consensus. Besides, Kemetian art communicates in not so subtle ways; there are Asiatics, and then there are others. As for the Asiatics, it is apparent that the Kemetians didn't regard the Puntites to be among them. IP: Logged |
ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 24 March 2005 05:02 PM
All indications show that Punt was actually to the East of Egypt and probably North-East.
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 24 March 2005 05:29 PM
Also the explanations put out by those early Egyptologists are way two convoluted to make any reasonable sense. Read this for a little more detail,
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rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 24 March 2005 05:44 PM
I'm sure we are all intelligent people here and have basic reading comprehension skills. "Turning my face to sunrise I created a wonder for you, I made the lands of Punt come here to you, with all the fragrant flowers of their lands, to beg your peace and breathe the air you give." We know that some of Punt's treasures were carried over land by way of Nmay and Irem (through the modern Sudan). We also hear of the children of the chiefs of Punt that were raised at the Egyptian court alongside the children of Kush (Nubia) and Irem. Therefore, it has been assumed that Punt was not so far away, and most modern scholars place it perhaps on Africa's East Coast perhaps only just south of Egypt. Furthermore, modern attempts to classify flora and fauna suggests that Punt may have been located in the southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia. Yet this would place Punt to the east of Nubia and there is no evidence of military conflict between Punt and Egypt, as there was between Egypt and Nubia. One even wonders whether Punt was indeed an actual political entity through all the years between Egypt's Old and New Kingdoms, or was rather more of a generalized, perhaps encompassing a rather large area of Eastern Africa. http://touregypt.net/featurestories/punt.htm [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
Wally Member Posts: 709 |
posted 24 March 2005 06:30 PM
quote: You can be silly, and everyone can guess about, but the words are real, Egyptian names for Africa Ta Khent- Land of the beginning Instead of being flippant, why don't you do the research and perhaps learn something... [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 24 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 24 March 2005 07:54 PM
quote: The Book of the Dead. The "lands of the gods" was often mentioned in the same context as the lands of Punt. Neither place was in Egypt but somewhere outside it. The sailing route to Punt .. PWN.T ... from the earliest times was South along the Red sea coast. The location of these lands can apply equally to any area along the coast either before or beyond the Horn of Africa, or if inland where travel was "on land and water", anywhere within the highlands of modern Ethiopia or further South to the hills of Northern Somalia. For the Egyptians these were the exotic lands ... tA-nTr ... and they were filled with the fragrance of frankincense and myrrh. To separate the "lands of the Gods" from Punt is to emphasize "mountains" and "lakes" and places of rare beauty where the rays of the solar god were particularly active and creative. These were the lands only "written about" and rarely seen. Were the Egyptian astronomers required to visit these lands of the equator to gain first hand experience. It's really not as hard to learn as it is to force oneself to stay ignorant, however it is a matter of freedom of choice, in the end. IP: Logged |
ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 25 March 2005 01:23 AM
If the evidence doesn't fit with the theories, so people are two quick to disregard or dismiss the obvious signs of their weak arguments. Even, if the Queen herself identifies the Land of Punt as Lebanon/Phonecia.
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 25 March 2005 01:39 AM
The Cedar Tree is the most famous tree in Lebanon and yes it is the one displayed on the national flag. Well, here is a little more info as to why Punt (Lebanon) was actually the place the Egyptians called the land of the Gods and the same place where they got most of their Cedar Woods and other goodies, not to mention resin as well.
quote: [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 25 March 2005 02:11 AM
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 25 March 2005 02:28 AM
Again, sailing to East Africa, would have been quite difficult indeed for the Egyptians, but the Mediterranean Sea was quite familiar and a lot easier for them to navigate.
quote: [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 25 March 2005 02:35 AM
quote: The expedition travelled by land, via Koptos and the Wadi Hammamat, to the Red Sea. From the shores of the Red Sea, the ships sailed to the south...The products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin; excluding south east Arabia. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere along the African shores of the Red Sea, perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia. - Jacques Kinnaer IP: Logged |
Super car Member Posts: 588 |
posted 25 March 2005 02:52 AM
Abaza, you keep failing to understand (no surprise here) that Canaan was an Egyptian controlled territory, which means that in order to have maintained control, they would have to have maintained a regular contact with the region, which could be facilitated by stationing there. There is no evidence of ancient Egyptians stationing in Punt, and no evidence that regular contact was maintained. If you do, I'd like to see the source for this! IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 25 March 2005 03:36 AM
"But I will cause thy army to tread them, I have led them on water and on land, to explore the waters of inaccessible channels, and I have reached the Myrrh-terraces. It is a glorious region of God's-Land; it is indeed my place of delight. I have made it for myself, in order to divert my heart, together with Mut, Hathor, Wereret, mistress of Punt, the mistress, 'Great in Sorcery', mistress of all gods". They took myrrh as they wished, they loaded the vessels to their hearts' content, with fresh MYRRH trees, every good gift of this country, Puntites whom the people know not, Southerns of God's-Land" - Queen Hatshepsut Ancient Records of Egypt, Historical Documents, Vol. II, 1906 IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 25 March 2005 03:41 AM
Punt was certainly in Africa, and probably was the Somali coast. -Breasted, James Henry, Ph.D., Ancient Records of Egypt, Historical Documents, Vol. II, 1906 IP: Logged |
ABAZA Member Posts: 1569 |
posted 25 March 2005 04:37 AM
The Punic People are the People of Punt, the Phoenicians. Afrocentrics have tried to tell people that they were Black Sub-Saharan Africans, which is totally wrong.
quote: [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 25 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 25 March 2005 04:49 AM
Punt: in ancient Egyptian and Greek geography, the southern coast of the Red Sea and adjacent coasts of the Gulf of Aden, corresponding to modern coastal Ethiopia and Djibouti. Pwonit ("Punt")- "Egyptian" The country of the first existence/The first country (to exist) Phoenicia: ancient maritime country of southwest Asia consisting of city-states along the eastern Mediterranean Sea in present-day Syria and Lebanon Punic: Of or relating to ancient Carthage, its inhabitants, or their language. from Latin Punicus, earlier Poenicus "Carthaginian," originally "Phoenician" Encyclopdia Britannica, American Heritage Dictionary, EWB [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
ausar Moderator Posts: 3566 |
posted 25 March 2005 01:41 PM
Cedar wood was not the only wood used in ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptians also used ebony wood which can only be obtained either through trade with Nubia or with Punt. Another trade item that was necessary to the ancient Egyptians was Leopard skins. Know ask yourself why Egyptians chose to adorn themselves with leopard skins that only came from regions south of Egypt?
The fish found on the depictions of Deir el Bahari of Hathshepsut are identified with specices around the Indian Ocean and not with any eastern Mediterranean variety.
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dahlak Member Posts: 61 |
posted 25 March 2005 04:41 PM
Abaza you are wrong, ausar is right. Back then egypt, aksum, india had bissness trough red sea, not meditranian. Teff grows only in eritrea or ethiopia. Come on now abaza, the land of punt is east africa, not in lebanon or in other place. Abaza this time i disagree with you. The Red Sea had alot history about ancent times, not the meditranian sea. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 27 March 2005 02:19 PM
Ehiopia Axum and Punt, Gamal Nkrumah
The close proximity of the Ethiopian highlands to the Red Sea has always provided the main line of external communication. This stretch of water has, since time immemorial, provided a means of transport and the Ancient Egyptians recorded voyages to the Land of Punt -- God's Land. To them, Punt was the most ancient country, a sacred territory. Queen Hatshepsut in the 18th dynasty (1540-1304 BC) dispatched a diplomatic and trading mission to Punt, beautifully depicted on her funerary temple at Deir Al-Bahri. Punt was also the source of a host of exotic goods such as gold, ivory, ostrich feathers, animal skins and hides. AXUM: This most celebrated state of Ancient Ethiopia could, in its heyday, be compared in grandeur with the empires of Rome, Persia and Ancient China. Among the most imposing features of its material culture are monumental stelae that mark the burial catacombs of Axumite kings. Some 120 survive today -- many in a dilapidated state of disrepair. The largest is over 30 metres long, albeit no longer standing upright. It was the largest single stone ever quarried in the ancient world. The stelae of Axum are grave markers with which catacombs are invariably associated. Shafts, underground passages and chambers are always found nearby. The Axumite empire's heartland was the highlands of northern Ethiopia and southern Eritrea. The most impressive ruins are to be found in the northern Ethiopian region of Tigray, and to a lesser extent in Eritrea. The capital, Axum, in northern Tigray still stands today -- a mere shadow of its former glory. Axum's rulers assumed the title of Negust Nagast, King of Kings, and started minting coins that provide an interesting chronology of the rulers of Axum. No other kingdom in Africa south of the Sahara did this, and the study of the Axumite coinage system reveals much about the development of the political structure, religion and culture of the ancient empire. For example, the earliest Axumite coins bore the crescent and sun-disc, or crescent and star -- designs characteristic of the pagan religion where moon and sun worship was prevalent. Later, when Christianity was officially adopted as a state religion, the cross replaced the crescent and sun-disc as state emblems engraved on official Axumite coins. Many of the earliest coins also had Greek inscriptions but, as Axum grew in importance, the Greek inscriptions were replaced by Ge'ez inscriptions (see box). Christianity was adopted as a state religion in Ethiopia in the fourth century AD. According to tradition, two Christian youths from Tyre, Aedesius and Frumentius, were shipwrecked on the Red Sea coast of what is today Eritrea. They were taken to Axum, became tutors of the future king, and later Frumentius left Ethiopia for Alexandria and asked the Coptic Patriarch of Egypt to send a bishop to head the nascent Ethiopian Church. Frumentius was consecrated. He assumed the name Abuna Salama, initiating a tradition, whereby the Archbishops of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church were consecrated by the Coptic Pope, which lasted until the early 1970s.
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rasol Member Posts: 2619 |
posted 27 March 2005 05:42 PM
Supercar posts: quote: IP: Logged |
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