posted 24 March 2005 07:59 AM            

Kabyles accordingly show no trace of sub-Saharan admixture:

posted 24 March 2005 10:48 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Kabyle Berbers are an isolated group dating back to pre-historic times, and widely considered to represent indigenous North Africans. According to Arredi et al. 2004, they have 58% E3b -- more than most Ethiopian groups. However, unlike Ethiopians and many other E3b carriers in Africa, they have no E(xE3b) lineages, no A or B, and only negligible amounts of L mtDNA.

Kabyles accordingly show no trace of sub-Saharan admixture:

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Thought Writes:

Does their mtDNA reflect this so-called "isolation" or does it indicate RECENT admixture with Iberians and other Eurasians?

East and West Africans share common L2a lineages that spread to East and West Africa **PRIOR** to the dispersal of E3b to Europe.

posted 24 March 2005 10:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Does their mtDNA reflect this so-called "isolation" or does it indicate RECENT admixture with Iberians and other Eurasians?

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Thought Posts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle

The Y chromosome is passed exclusively through the paternal line. The composition is: 48% E3b2, 12% E3b* (xE3b2), 17% R1*(xR1a) and 23% F*(xH,I,J2,K)

[1] (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n2/41184/41184.fg1.html),

according to the method used in Bosch et al. 2001

(http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.html).

We may summarize the historical origins of the Kabyle Y-chromosome pool as follows: 60% Northwest African Upper Paleolithic (H36/E3b* and H38/E3b2), 23% Neolithic (F*(xH,I,J2,K)) and 17% historic European gene flow (R1*(xR1a)).

The mtDNA, by contrast, is inherited only from the mother and is: 30.65% H, 29.03% U* (with 17.74% U6), 3.23% preHV, 4.84% preV, 4.84% V, 3.23% T*, 4.84% J*, 3.23% L1, 4.84% L3e, 3.23% X, 3.23% M1, 1.61% N and R 3.23%

[2] (http://www.ifr26.nantes.inserm.fr/img/North_Africa.pdf).

Thus the mtDNA makeup of Kabyles is: 66.12% general Western Eurasian (H, J, U, T, K, X, V and I), 22.58% specific Northwest African (U6, L3E), 8.07% Asian (M1, N, R) and 3.23% sub-Saharan gene flow (L1-L3a).

posted 24 March 2005 11:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

Thus the mtDNA makeup of Kabyles is: 66.12% general Western Eurasian

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 24 March 2005 11:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

17% R1*(xR1a) and 23% F*(xH,I,J2,K)

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 24 March 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

posted 24 March 2005 11:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Kayble have 40% Eurasian (foreign non-African) Y-Chromosomes

---

That's also what I came up with based upon data from: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kabyle

About 40% Eurasian male and nearly 75% Eurasian female.

Their African Y chromosome E3b originates in East Africa, which is also where the Berber language and culture originate.

Their European Mtdna must/needs be the product of predominently African males migrating to Northwest Africa and mixing at some point with preominently Eurasian females.

Accordingly: they are a heterogeneous predominently Eurasian population with few of the tropical physical characteristics of pre-historic and current East Africans.

In contrast, the ORIGINAL E3b population are ancestral to the Somali, Borana and other East African populations with East African MALE and FEMALE genes, which by definition the original E3b population MUST have possessed.

The very fact that the Kaybele match East African Y chromsome with overwhelmingly predominent Eurasian mtdna disqualifies them in this regard, which we have covered thoroughy in a previous thread....
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001029.html

And, as has also been shown, haplotypes do not have phenotypes.... http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001543.html

From the liguistic perspective, their language is Afrasan and is agreed to have originated in east Africa 10,000 ago. According to the historian Christopher Ehret, they probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea.

This is confirmed by genetic studies which demonstrate that their paternal lineage is predominantly east African in origin.

This is usually taken to imply that the language was introduced from east Africa by males, maybe with some degree of population change, no earlier than 15,000 years ago. - berber.biography.ms

posted 24 March 2005 11:59 AM            

Carthaginians, Sea People, Goths, Italians, Iberians, Jews, Arabs, Turks, Gypsies, Slavic converts to Islam, French, etc had much to do with this genetic and phenotypic change. The Mesolthic Afalou were very different from the Eurasian Kabyle.

Thought Posts:

http://car.anu.edu.au/abstract-publications.html

COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262. ISSN 0018-442X.
Abstract:

We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans.

Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens.

As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status.

Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.
Dr Groves is a Reader in the School of Archaeology and Anthropology, Faculty of Arts, ANU. Dr Thorne is a Visiting Fellow in that School and also in the Department of Archaeology and Natural History, RSPAS, ANU

posted 25 March 2005 07:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
East and West Africans share common L2a lineages that spread to East and West Africa **PRIOR** to the dispersal of E3b to Europe.

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L2a is not present at all in Kabyles (or Greeks). Your point?

quote:

---

Thus the mtDNA makeup of Kabyles is: 66.12% general Western Eurasian

Kayble have 40% Eurasian (foreign non-African) Y-Chromosomes!!!!

---

Exactly.

Substantial E3b + Eurasian DNA = Racially Caucasoid.

posted 25 March 2005 07:53 AM            

quote:

---

Substantial E3b + Eurasian DNA = Racially Caucasoid.

---

Equivalent to stating -

Substantial Cohen model haplotype + African DNA = Racially Negroid

Illustratating that haplotypes don't have phenotypes, as shown: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001543.html

You make the complete opposite point that was intended...as usual.

posted 25 March 2005 08:20 AM            

Lemba Jews with West Asian Y chromosome. By Erroneous E's ill - logic this must mean that the so-called Cohen model Haplotype is "negroid".

Erroneous E clearly does not grasp genetics and likely does not wish to.

His argument is pseudo-scientific and racist.

Caucazoid genes don't exist.

posted 26 March 2005 07:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Substantial Cohen model haplotype + African DNA = Racially Negroid

---

Only the senior Lemba clan is substantially Caucasoid. On average, Lemba have negligible admixture:

"A team of geneticists has found that many Lemba men carry in their male chromosome a set of DNA sequences that is distinctive of the cohanim, the Jewish priests believed to be the descendants of Aaron. The priestly genetic signature is particularly common among Lemba men who belong to the senior of their 12 groups, known as the Buba clan.

[ . . . ]

"And last month, at a conference on human evolution held at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Long Island, Goldstein reported that 9 percent of Lemba men carried the cohen genetic signature, and of those who said they belonged to the Buba clan, 53 percent had the distinctive sequences."

posted 26 March 2005 11:23 AM            

Am J Hum Genet. 2005 Mar 24;76(5)

Saami and Berbers--An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link.

Achilli A, Rengo C, Battaglia V, Pala M, Olivieri A, Fornarino S, Magri C, Scozzari R, Babudri N, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Bandelt HJ, Semino O, Torroni A.

Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita di Pavia, Pavia, Italy. torroni@ipvgen.unipv.it.

The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the "out of Africa" exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ~9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.

posted 26 March 2005 12:01 PM            

quote:

---

Erronesous E writes: Only the senior Lemba clan is substantially Caucasoid

---

[DNA test] results are stunning. A group of genetic markers - a distinctive combination of letter changes and repeats, dubbed the Cohen Modal Haplotype - is seen in about 10% of the general Jewish population

The geneticists found that the proportion of Lemba men carrying the genetic signature of Cohanim was about 10 percent, similar to the percentage found among Jewish men around the world and much higher than found in the general population. Moreover, the Cohen Modal Haplotype appeared in over 50% of one particular group of Lemba-the Buba clan. http://www.genomicart.org/genome-chap5.htm

Professor Mathiva, senior Buba Clan leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html

Jon Cohen Meets the Buba:

He referred me to a Buba Lemba in Johannesburg, and after a few more phone calls, I had secured an invitation from Peter Mbelangwa to visit him at home. Whereas 56 percent of Lembas from the Buba clan have 17 of the 17 markers that constitute the Cohen modal haplotype , Goldstein found that I have only 16, making me a "one-step neighbor." http://slate.msn.com/id/79372

Geneticists speak of lineages, or haplotypes, when they describe the different subgroups that have descended from our common ancestors. The old distinctions between what were once called races persist in everyday speech, but they are becoming obsolete and as far removed from science as the once exalted study of alchemy.

Caucasoid genes don't exist.

Erroneous E's threads all end the same way...

posted 27 March 2005 12:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

[DNA test] results are stunning. A group of genetic markers - a distinctive combination of letter changes and repeats, dubbed the Cohen Modal Haplotype - [b]is seen in about 10% of the general Jewish population

The geneticists found that the proportion of Lemba men carrying the genetic signature of Cohanim was about 10 percent, similar to the percentage found among Jewish men around the world and much higher than found in the general population. Moreover, the Cohen Modal Haplotype appeared in over 50% of one particular group of Lemba-the Buba clan. http://www.genomicart.org/genome-chap5.htm

Professor Mathiva, senior Buba Clan leader.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html

Jon Cohen Meets the Buba:

He referred me to a Buba Lemba in Johannesburg, and after a few more phone calls, I had secured an invitation from Peter Mbelangwa to visit him at home. Whereas 56 percent of Lembas from the Buba clan have 17 of the 17 markers that constitute the Cohen modal haplotype , Goldstein found that I have only 16, making me a "one-step neighbor." http://slate.msn.com/id/79372

Geneticists speak of lineages, or haplotypes, when they describe the different subgroups that have descended from our common ancestors. The old distinctions between what were once called races persist in everyday speech, but they are becoming obsolete and as far removed from science as the once exalted study of alchemy.

Caucasoid genes don't exist.

Erroneous E's threads all end the same way...

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 26 March 2005).][/B]

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posted 27 March 2005 07:02 AM            

quote:

---

See this is why you can't isolate a phenotype to certain genotypic alleles and clusters. These Lembas have higher number of "Jewish" genetic signatures than most Jewish populations around the world. This show the diversity of the african. One group can have high clusters of certain genes while other whom look just like them have lower or absence of that gene cluster

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posted 27 March 2005 08:49 AM            

quote:

---

We have yet to see multiple/crowd photos of Buba clan members to determine if any Caucasoid admixture is visible.

---

It is YOU who claimed the Lemba were substantially "caucasoid" to begin with. Now you reverse yourself, simply because the former lie contradicts the present lie. It adds up to just another failed troll thread by Erroneous E.

Ignorance is no defense and no excuse for your contradictions.

Biologist Christopher Wills [PH.d], University of California

The Lemba of Africa have a substantial genetic contribution from peoples of the Middle East, Jewish people in fact who apparently arrived in South Africa-a thousand, 2,000 years ago; nobody's sure exactly when-bringing genes with them which have made a substantial contribution to the gene pool of the Lemba. They look just like other southern Africans.

All those genes that have been put into the Lemba gene pool have had virtually no effect on their morphology.

The genetic changes that produce the morphological change might be fairly small. You can get a very small genetic change that can have a big effect on the organism's morphology or conversely you can have a lot of genetic changes that have no effect on the organism's morphology

That is the reality of molecular genetics - which you never will understand, because you prefer to dwell in a racist fantasy world of endless distortion, transparent lies and simple ignorance.

posted 28 March 2005 07:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Biologist Christopher Wills [PH.d]

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posted 28 March 2005 08:18 AM            

quote:

---

it's painfully obvious

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posted 29 March 2005 08:04 AM            

quote:

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BOTTOM LINE: Lemba.... have a Caucasoid racial component, and accompanying maps group them with or near Caucasoid populations, away from Negroids

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Erroneous E also wrote:

quote:

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Lemba have negligible admixture

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Erroneous E is so horribly lost, that he continues to link-reference his prior statements, even though he now claims to disavow them. Yet he wants others to somehow clarify. his personal contradictions.

Erroneous E, a nasty little dog chasing its own tail.

Good luck E!

posted 30 March 2005 08:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
it's painfully obvious

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...and picture spamming can't save him.

ps - you have some rather odd fetishes which you might not want to reveal in public.

posted 30 March 2005 09:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:

Kabyles are ~30% "East African" (E3b-derived), and that's across the board. We've seen multiple/crowd photos of them, and no Negroid admixture is visible at all. They're fully Caucasoid because E3b is Caucasoid.

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Kabyles have 30% E-M81, while Somalis have 85% E-M78 gamma. If E3b is Caucasoid and Somalis are mostly 'Negroid' maternally why don't East Africans look like mulattoes?

posted 30 March 2005 10:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
topDog, They do have caucasian features.

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**WRONG**, so-called Caucasian features have been in East Africa among the people before any historical contact and or mixture with any foreign population, now answer the question and quit trolling, why don't East Africans look like mulattoes?

posted 30 March 2005 10:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
They are obviously mixed with non african peoples from somewhere. Their geographic location even makes that likely. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

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In that case if talks like a troll and sounds lik a troll its a troll. San have epicanthic eyefolds just like Mongoloids, so I guess they 're Mongoloid admixed correct? Quit trolling with nonsense.

posted 30 March 2005 10:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 30 March 2005 11:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Thought, its what you do after you spend some time on this board.....sort of like water reaching its natural level.

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Thought Writes:

posted 30 March 2005 11:12 AM            

They are related to other Africans paternally via the PN2 clade.

They are the heterogeneous product of the combination of East African Berber speakers who migrated to northwest Africa during the Holocene, and Eurasian Immigrants who settled on the North African coast.

Additionally they have a strong recent component of historical Eurasian female and Eurasian male admixture.

They are physically Eurasian in appearance and predominantly Eurasian genetically.

The Lemba are South Africans of predominantly African extraction.

They are related to other Africans [including the Kabyle] via the Pn2 clade, and also to West Asians via the “cohen modal haplotype”, which they inherent from migrants ultimately from West Asia, in the EXACT SAME MANNER as southern Europeans inherit E3b haplotype from East Africa.

The Lemba are physically Southern African in appearance and predominantly African genetically.

The irony is that CMH has been called the “Jewish” haplotype, yet the Lemba have a greater frequency of this, by far…then the general population of Israel, and the Buba clan have one of the highest frequencies of this haplotype in the world.

Haplotypes such as CMH and E3b are not causal of phenotypic features such as dark skin or “Semitic” noses, so you cannot in fact predict physical appearance based on these markers.

As for E3b, it originated among Black East Africans whose skeletal remains are most similar to modern African populations who are genetically distinct from the original European populations.

Prehistorical whites of East Africa do not exist. The pseudoscientific need to invent such an entity is made ‘necessary’ by the facts of East and West African ancestry in Southern Europeans, which molecular genetics has revealed, much to the irritation of the ethnocentrists.

posted 30 March 2005 11:20 AM            

Thought Writes:

Sigh....specific examples please???

{I used some of your stuff on Greece at a dinner party last weekend and got all the laughs}

Thought Writes:

Another example of Horemheb's **scientific method**. This is Horemheb's version of peer-review.

posted 30 March 2005 11:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Thought, you would not know a 'peer reviewed' piece of scholarship if it ran over you on the street.
The arguments you make have no chance of making it into the main stream, unless it is at the comedy workshop. I used some of your stuff on Greece at a dinner party last weekend and got all the laughs.
Truthfully, the kind of nonsense on this board is what happens when people try to tie scholarship to an agenda.

---

A professor who believes that Eurocentrism doesn't exist. Care to explain Horemheb?

posted 30 March 2005 11:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Good historians cannot be concerned with trying to prove blackness.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 30 March 2005 11:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
I have topdog...scholars seek the truth. They do not represent a regional point of view. The term was invented by black radicals to help promote their own views of inferiority and victimization. Mainstrem scholars look at it as simply silly.

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posted 30 March 2005 04:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
They are obviously mixed with non african peoples from somewhere. Their geographic location even makes that likely. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

---

They are not European features at all. The only foreign features Somali have are from the early West Asians whom look like Southern Arabs. They are not white either, and likely left Africa and developed into distinct phenotype before the Europeans.

"TopDog...if they did not feel inferior they would have nothing to prove. I work with blacks who have advanced to very high levels but most of them don't have time for this afrocentric baloney. Times are changing...one group of blacks are moving into the future in the global economy while the other group wants to stay in the 19th century and weep about colonialism."

posted 30 March 2005 05:40 PM            

quote:

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They are not European features at all. The only foreign features Somali have are from the early West Asians whom look like Southern Arabs. They are not white either, and likely left Africa and developed into distinct phenotype.

---

For that very reason it is much more accurate to say that Southern Arabians have East African features.

Morever Southern Arabians have substantial E Y chromsome including E3a and E3b as well as L mtdna.

Somali have 10 to 15 % West Asian Haplotype...comparable to the Lemba Bantu.

posted 30 March 2005 05:53 PM            

quote:

---

TopDog writes: Now I see you have to resort to lies. What proof do you have that 'black radicals' coined the term Eurocentrism?

---

Tactics of the 3 unwise men:

* Horemheb - change the subject preferably to American geopolitics. Refuse to engage the topic, which he is likely unfamiliar with at any rate.

* Abaza - spam the topic with irrelevant straw attacks, off-point essays; reviews of books he hasn't read, etc..

* Evil E - intentionally destort information with a goal of deceiving the ill-informed ie - propaganda trolling.

If that fails - flame the topic with racist attacks, in an attempt to reduce the discussion to the most debased level, thereby drawing attention away from his exposed -falsification of fact and resultant exploded arguments.

posted 30 March 2005 06:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roy_2k5:

They are not European features at all. The only foreign features Somali have are from the early West Asians whom look like Southern Arabs. They are not white either, and likely left Africa and developed into distinct phenotype before the Europeans.

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posted 30 March 2005 06:10 PM            

Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups.

Department of Anatomy, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.

Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World. The major findings are as follows: 1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians. 2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans. 3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest. 4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand. 5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern. This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree. Taking all of these into account, a single origin for anatomically modern humans is the most parsimonious interpretation of the craniofacial variations presented in this study.

posted 31 March 2005 07:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Topdog:
If E3b is Caucasoid and Somalis are mostly 'Negroid' maternally why don't East Africans look like mulattoes?

---

Somali with unmistakable Caucasoid features (long head, hook nose, heavy beard) but Negroid pigmentation and hair type, reflecting genetically and anthropologically attested mixed ancestry: