posted 17 April 2005 03:56 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
[B]oooh under the belt wouldn,t you think rusol!!

---

No, but this is....

quote:

---

what i was mearly stating is that people like you who always state all africans look the same

---

quote:

---

and got the same lineage

---

quote:

---

I never said that i got arab lineage.

---

Who claimed otherwise? Your problem is you never actually respond to what others say.

quote:

---

what i am saying is that we are of our own race and look the same.

---

quote:

---

you come out with fulani

---

quote:

---

how many fulanies are out there. a handful i think.

---

Try 25 million, more than the Somali.

I have suggestion for yourself, Daklah and Barbarian Berber....try setting your petty ethnic egos aside and making a calm objective study of the issues at hand. It can be done.

Ausar is an excellent role model for you in this respect. He is an Egyptian and a scholar and has the courage to seek truth, even when it isn't necessarily what he might want to believe.

posted 17 April 2005 03:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
oooh under the belt wouldn,t you think rusol!!

what i was mearly stating is that people like you who always state all africans look the same and got the same lineage are talking b.s.

I never said that i got arab lineage. you go a-head look through all my posts and give a proof against me.

what i am saying is that we are of our own race and look the same.

you come out with fulani, how many fulanies are out there. a handful i think. there are 20 million somalies who mostly look the same 99.9%. and think about the ethioes and the eretaries and sudanies, how many are they???.

rasol get some facts clear.

---

posted 17 April 2005 04:09 PM            

quote:

---

Cobra he is trying to confuse you, most somalian say like the eritreans they are descendants from arabs.

---

The person most confused on all of these matters is yourself Dahlak.

* Somalians are NOT descendant from Arabs.

* Most Somalians do NOT claim to be descendant from Arabs.

* Cobra specifically stated that he does NOT claim an Arab lineage, so apparently you are trying to confuse him.

Have fun resolving this, you two? lol.

posted 17 April 2005 04:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Try 25 million, more than the Somali.

I have suggestion for yourself, Daklah and Barbarian Berber....try setting your petty ethnic egos aside and making a calm objective study of the issues at hand. It can be done.

Ausar is an excellent role model for you in this respect. He is an Egyptian and a scholar and has the courage to seek truth, even when it isn't necessarily what he might want to believe.

It's very difficult to do, I know, but try.

---

posted 17 April 2005 04:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by dahlak:
Do you realy believe even in ancient times were only one race, how come the ancient paintings show different typs of people?

---

Thought Writes:

Race biologically invalid. That is the point.

posted 17 April 2005 04:24 PM            

quote:

---

Like i said before in the region of east africa there are people of descendants from ARABS. When i was in Germany, the Moroco, Egypt, Libia, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia and other arab people call each other Brothers and Sisters, because they came from the same line blood. The colour people in america call each other brothers and sisters too, because they are the same blood line people. Brother cobra should know more about his ancestory more than you guys, because he is from Somalia. Like i said before in ancient times people from arabia moved to the region of east africa, through Red Sea. You should go to Algeria read about old arab history, not from outsiders.

---

You are mixing and matching different ethnic groups like Egyptians,Somalis,Eritreans,Libyans,and Moroccans together when each of these groups are distinct.

Of these groups the Libyans,Egyptians,and Moroccans have the most Arabic ancestry. Of these groups these are probably the most throughly Arabized people.

However, my ancestors are Sai'idi people from Southern Upper Egypt,and I don't identify with Arabs at all !!!!! Other Sai'idi and even Bahary Egyptians from the Delta are my brothers and sisters but not Arabs!!! I feel more kin with a Nubian from Northern Sudan than a Arab.

I am sure you will find in Egypt people with Turkish,Greek,Syrian,and Armenian ancestry to.

Besides many of these groups call each other brothers/sisters simply because they are Muslims and in Islam you have the Umma which promotes unity. This has nothing to do with blood connection.

quote:

---

Cobra he is trying to confuse you, most somalian say like the eritreans they are descendants from arabs. That is why we call eachother brothes and sisters and that is why the west, central and south african don`t like east africans, but this guys on this site try to tell you what you are. I think a native person should know more than an outsider. They talk about DNA, did they make test on each person of east africa????? if you don`t agree with them, they start them own treads.

---

The Somalis go by a clan system of different clans that are connected. The word Somali just means a pastorial herder versus the sedentary populations,and you have different various clans that go back in Somali history. The only Somalis with some Arab admixture are coastal Somalis,and the Somalis that live in the inland are not that mixed with Arabs.

You are foregetting the proto-semetic people that brought the Semetic language to Yemen were originally from Ethiopia. The following happened from Africans migrating into Arabia and not the reverse.

posted 17 April 2005 04:28 PM            

since you claimed that the fulani out number the somali by 15 million then they must be about 45 million in number.

and i expect nigerias population is 80 or 90 million strong. so how come i dont see light skinned, kirly hair and straight nose nigarian out of every 2 I meet.

posted 17 April 2005 04:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
Originally posted by rasol:
Try 25 million, more than the Somali.

---

posted 17 April 2005 05:01 PM            

quote:

---

claimed that the fulani out number the somali by 15 million

---

No....25 million, more than the Somali. ie - there are 25 million Fulani, not a "handful" as you wrongly stated. Understand?

quote:

---

your calculations don't stand up right

---

Your reading comprehension is really bad.

posted 17 April 2005 05:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
well dahlak, there is one clan who intermingel with the people of yamen. these are the issac clan. they are situwated in northan somalia, just occrose the gulf of Aden. They are a lot in number, you could't tell the difference out of the other somalies.

but as mingiling with sudanies and eygptians i dont think so. becuse of the geograpgy.

---

posted 17 April 2005 05:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Your reading comprehension is really bad.

Interesting the way you ignore Dahlak's comment that the Somali "descendant from Arabs." Most Somali I know would be all over that.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 17 April 2005 05:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Your reading comprehension is really bad.

Interesting the way you ignore Dahlak's comment that the Somali "descendant from Arabs." Most Somali I know would be all over that.

---

posted 17 April 2005 05:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by dahlak:

For real now i want to know, what about the dark people in india and so called middle east, there are dark skin arabs where they come from?

---

Thought Writes:

The real issue is that Somalians and Berbers are genetically related to other Africans from Central and West Africa via the E3 or PN2 clade of the Y-Chromosome.

posted 17 April 2005 05:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by dahlak:
For real now i want to know, what about the dark people in india and so called middle east, there are dark skin arabs where they come from? Even in my tribes, we have dark skin people and they are arabs. In kuwait and even Irak are dark skin arabs. You or auser can you guys explain to me?

---

posted 17 April 2005 05:55 PM            

quote:

---

For real now i want to know, what about the dark people in india and so called middle east, there are dark skin arabs where they come from? Even in my tribes, we have dark skin people and they are arabs. In kuwait and even Irak are dark skin arabs. You or auser can you guys explain to me?

---

Well in Iraq I am not certain except that southern Iraqis tend to have a more Dravidian look to them. In Kuwait and Oman you also have Austric elements from Negrito and Veddoid populations that were in Arabia before the Proto-Semetic speakers expanded from Eastern Africa. The oldest representation of these groups are the Mahra Arabs that look totally different from northern Arab bedouin tribes.

As you know the Arab themselves divide themselves into Qahtani[original Arabs] and Adanan [Arabized Arabs],and these groups are fundamentally different from each other ethnically but similar culturally.

You might not know dahlak,but lots of slaves from areas in Central Africa and the Blue Nile region were imported into parts of Kuwait,Saudi Arabia,and Oman. Of course, Eastern African type populations already existed in Southern Yemen connected to the Proto-Semetic speakers.

Most modern anthropologist tended to classify Indians from India as ''caucasoid'' despite their dark skinn,but they neglect the Australoid elements that are present in India along with the Central Asian elements present in places like Punjab to northern India.

Arabs have always been a hetrogenous population of people.

posted 17 April 2005 07:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Well in Iraq I am not certain except that southern Iraqis tend to have a more Dravidian look to them. In Kuwait and Oman you also have Austric elements from Negrito and Veddoid populations that were in Arabia before the Proto-Semetic speakers expanded from Eastern Africa. The oldest representation of these groups are the Mahra Arabs that look totally different from northern Arab bedouin tribes.

As you know the Arab themselves divide themselves into Qahtani[original Arabs] and Adanan [Arabized Arabs],and these groups are fundamentally different from each other ethnically but similar culturally.

You might not know dahlak,but lots of slaves from areas in Central Africa and the Blue Nile region were imported into parts of Kuwait,Saudi Arabia,and Oman. Of course, Eastern African type populations already existed in Southern Yemen connected to the Proto-Semetic speakers.

Most modern anthropologist tended to classify Indians from India as ''caucasoid'' despite their dark skinn,but they neglect the Australoid elements that are present in India along with the Central Asian elements present in places like Punjab to northern India.

Arabs have always been a hetrogenous population of people.

---

posted 18 April 2005 06:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
http://www.somalicenter.com/2005/apr/images/london/images/DSCF0554_jpg.jpg

---

Nice pictures.....Their look can also be found easily in west africa.....To everyone and especially white people, they are just black people or african plain and simple.

No one here (except a few dummies) is refuting the fact that africans are diverse and so are east and west africans and so are southern and northern europeans and asians.

posted 18 April 2005 08:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

In Kuwait and Oman you also have Austric elements from Negrito and Veddoid populations that were in Arabia before the Proto-Semetic speakers expanded from Eastern Africa.

---

Ausar, what is the 'hard evidence' for proto-Semitic expanding from Eastern Africa rather than the other way round?

posted 18 April 2005 08:30 PM            

Ausar, modern Anthropologists do not even use the Caucasoid-Negroid-Mongoloid racial classification system. Dravidians, even when the system was used were not classified as Caucasians.

posted 18 April 2005 08:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by YuhiVII:
Ausar, what is the 'hard evidence' for proto-Semitic expanding from Eastern Africa rather than the other way round?

---

Conversation with Christopher Ehret:

Ehret... the early Semites were just a few Africans arriving to find a lot of other people already in the area. So they're going to have to accommodate. Some groups, maybe ones who live in peripheries, in areas with lower population densities, may be able to impose the henotheistic religion they arrived with."

WHC [interviewer]: How does a small group of Semites coming in from Africa transform the language of a region in which they are a minority?

Ehret: One of the archaeological possibilities is a group called the Mushabaeans. This group moves in on another group that's Middle Eastern. Out of this, you get the Natufian people. Now, we can see in the archaeology that people were using wild grains the Middle East very early, back into the late glacial age, about 18,000 years ago. But they were just using these seeds as they were. At the same time, in this northeastern corner of Africa, another people ­ the Mushabaeans? ­ are using grindstones along the Nile, grinding the tubers of sedges. Somewhere along the way, they began to grind grain as well. Now, it's in the Mushabian period that grindstones come into the Middle East.

Conceivably, with a fuller utilization of grains, they're making bread. We can reconstruct a word for "flatbread," like Ethiopian injira. This is before proto-Semitic divided into Ethiopian and ancient Egyptian languages. So, maybe, the grindstone increases how fully you use the land. This is the kind of thing we need to see more evidence for. We need to get people arguing about this.

And by the way: we can reconstruct the word for "grindstone" back to the earliest stage of Afrasan. Even the Omati have it. And there are a lot of common words for using grasses and seeds.

Other notes:

Steven Brandt (Department of Anthropology, University of Florida) and Juris Zarins (Department of Anthropology, Southwest Missouri State University): Traditional models argue that the origin of Semitic-speaking peoples that are tied closely to Mesopotamian cultures that arose following the original settlements of the lower Mesopotamian alluvium, around 5500 BC. Drawing upon recent archaeological, linguistic and genetic data, this paper suggests an alternative model in which early Neolithic Afro-Asiatic speaking nomadic pastoralists from Northeastern Africa were the first to introduce pre-Semitic languages and an African form of nomadic pastoralism to Arabia and the Near East. Implications of this model for the importance of pastoral nomadism in clarifying issues related to the socio-economic prehistory and history of these regions are discussed.

Juris Zarins (Department of Anthropology, Southwest Missouri State University) and
Steven Brandt (Department of Anthropology, University of Florida):
The Eastern Desert of Egypt. A case study for the spread of Semitic-speaking pastoral peoples (cancelled):

In a previous presentation we argued that a complex, two-pronged development resulted in the creation of pastoral nomads in Arabia. One of these arose which was closely related to the Fertile Crescent. As the result of animal domestication by 6000 BC, groups began to herd ovicaprids in areas adjacent to the Crescent, especially in northern Arabia, southern Levant and the Sinai. The second developmental wave may have originated in the Horn of Africa. The domestication of bovids and specialized sheep led to pastoral groups developing in southwest Arabia, perhaps as early as 6000 BC as well. Recent genetic evidence tends to buttress already known archaeological and rock art data for such assumptions. The concomitant issue of Semitic language origins can also be re-examined in light of recent linguistic-genetic modeling proposed by a number of researchers. An examination of the Eastern **Desert of Egypt** can perhaps shed light on this problem as well. By the late Old Kingdom, hieroglyphic records suggest that at least two major pastoral, linguistic-ethnic groups developed in the Eastern Desert. The first group, as traditional Semitic speakers, may have originated in the northern areas of Sinai, the southern Levant and Arabian Midian. These groups would include the ?3M and/or IWN.TYW / ST.TYW / MNTW N SWT. From the Horn of Africa area ranging into the southern Eastern Desert we see the arrival of the ?Cushitic MD3 and BK / BKK / B3KT. For the subsequent Middle Kingdom, a well defined regional characterization develops perhaps enhanced by the cordon sanitaire maintained by the Egyptians along the Wadi Hammamat.
http://www.archbase.com/nomads/workshop.html

posted 19 April 2005 12:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Good find supercar

---

posted 19 April 2005 10:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
I appreciate the props.

---

Returning the favor:

When Jospeh H. Greenberg in the late 1940s set about the monumental task of classifying African languages, the origins of Hebrew were probably far from his mind.

Five years later even he would be astonished at his findings. Of the many groups Greenberg placed together, the Hamito-Semitic yielded the most astounding finds. Greenberg had identified five different branches of Hamito-Semitic: Cushitic, Egyptian, Berber, Chadic and Semitic. It was always assumed that the relationship of these languages stemmed from Caucasian invaders into Africa from the Middle East. But Greenberg's research far from supported this.

Greenberg realized that the Cushitic branch languages were far more divergent from each other than were those of any other branch. Such sharp differences indicated that the sub-branches of Cushitic had diverged from each other at a very early date and had been evolving independently for much longer than any of the other branches.

This all implied that the Hamito-Semitic language was evolving in Cush (Ethiopia) longer than anywhere else.

Thus Ethiopia had to be the original homeland of all Hamito-Semitic languages.

It is now believed that perhaps as early as 12,000-10,000BC, African proto-Cushitic speakers migrated from Ethiopia spreading out into Africa and the Near East. This proto-Cushitic tongue evolved not only into Cushitic, Egyptian, Berber, and Chadic tongues, but into the Semitic branch as well. This included Hebrew, Phoenecian, Arabic and Assyrian. Thus the Hebrew tongue is of rather recent (prehistorically speaking) African origin. Greenberg renamed this Cushitic derived family group more appropriately, Afroasiatic. It is not surprising then that Hebraic religion can be found with so many African mythic symbols. The picture above illustrates the close proximity of East Africa and the Near East or "Biblical World." (Time Life World Maps, Black Spark, White Fire by Richard Poe, Languages of Africa by Joseph Greenberg

posted 19 April 2005 04:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
Originally posted by rasol:
Try 25 million, more than the Somali. -----------------------------------------
i belive since you started to get into the fulkani its my turn to put my views.
since you claimed that the fulani out number the somali by 15 million then they must be about 45 million in number.

and i expect nigerias population is 80 or 90 million strong. so how come i dont see light skinned, kirly hair and straight nose nigarian out of every 2 I meet.

your calculations dond stand up right.

---

The Fulani are spread clear across the Sudan belt all the way from Senegal
to Saud Arabia. Yet nowhere do they form the majority population nor are
they all uniform in facial features or hair form because they hold no
deep "racial" bias and have mated with Imazighen, Gnawa, and Arab.

The Fulani consider their ideal type to be tall, thin, red complexioned,
and loosely rather than tightly curled hair. These features are most notable
in the Wodaabe found in the Sahel region of Niger.

posted 20 April 2005 08:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

Returning the favor:

When Jospeh H. Greenberg in the late 1940s set about the monumental task of classifying African languages, the origins of Hebrew were probably far from his mind.

Five years later even he would be astonished at his findings. Of the many groups Greenberg placed together, the Hamito-Semitic yielded the most astounding finds. Greenberg had identified five different branches of Hamito-Semitic: Cushitic, Egyptian, Berber, Chadic and Semitic. It was always assumed that the relationship of these languages stemmed from Caucasian invaders into Africa from the Middle East. But Greenberg's research far from supported this.

Greenberg realized that the Cushitic branch languages were far more divergent from each other than were those of any other branch. Such sharp differences indicated that the [b]sub-branches of Cushitic had diverged from each other at a very early date and had been evolving independently for much longer than any of the other branches.

This all implied that the Hamito-Semitic language was evolving in Cush (Ethiopia) longer than anywhere else.

Thus Ethiopia had to be the original homeland of all Hamito-Semitic languages.

It is now believed that perhaps as early as 12,000-10,000BC, African proto-Cushitic speakers migrated from Ethiopia spreading out into Africa and the Near East. This proto-Cushitic tongue evolved not only into Cushitic, Egyptian, Berber, and Chadic tongues, but into the Semitic branch as well. This included Hebrew, Phoenecian, Arabic and Assyrian. Thus the Hebrew tongue is of rather recent (prehistorically speaking) African origin. Greenberg renamed this Cushitic derived family group more appropriately, Afroasiatic. It is not surprising then that Hebraic religion can be found with so many African mythic symbols. The picture above illustrates the close proximity of East Africa and the Near East or "Biblical World." (Time Life World Maps, Black Spark, White Fire by Richard Poe, Languages of Africa by Joseph Greenberg

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 April 2005).][/B]

---

Thanks a lot for your replies Supercar and Rasol. I think the topic of "Proto-Semitic origins" deserves a thread of its own. Usually on this forum it has been a secondary topic in other threads dealing with Proto-Afrasan/Afro-asiatic or the spread of pastoral-nomadism. Unfortunately due to time contraints I can't contribute to this topic at the moment (nor any other topic); however I would imagine (from a lay point of view of course) that a good approach is to look into divergence in Semitic languages as Greenberg did with Proto-AA languages (as quoted above by Rasol). Has any such study been completed?

posted 20 April 2005 08:34 PM            

Anyone miss me?

Sorry it's been a while, but I had comp problems, and not surprisingly I missed a lot on this forum. Then again, much of what I've missed isn't really new to this forum...

Ah.. looks like new members stirring old arguments

posted 20 April 2005 08:49 PM            

Nobody is saying Somalis have kinky hair or broad noses. Everybody agrees about what Somali people look like, that they have narrow noses and curly hair. I know how Somali people look like, not only because of some self educating but also first hand experience as in I have Somali friends!!

The fact that Rasol and others in the forum are trying teach is that the features that Somali people have are not due to admixture with non-Africans, like people from the Middle-East, but that these features are totally indigenous to Africa! Black Africans are diverse and vary in physical features, and Somali people are just as black African as the stereotypical 'broad-nosed' 'kinky-haired' Guinea peoples of West Africa! People of European descent i.e. "white people" have always made it known that they themselves vary in physical features, yet when it comes to other 'races' or groups of people i.e. "people of color" all of a sudden they make generalizations. Thus the stereotypes that "All black Africans look alike" or "All Asians (mongoloid, I hate the term by the way) look alike" This is especially the case with Asians, like myself!

posted 20 April 2005 09:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Nobody is saying Somalis have kinky hair

---

posted 21 April 2005 12:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by YuhiVII:
Thanks a lot for your replies Supercar and Rasol. I think the topic of "Proto-Semitic origins" deserves a thread of its own. Usually on this forum it has been a secondary topic in other threads dealing with Proto-Afrasan/Afro-asiatic or the spread of pastoral-nomadism. Unfortunately due to time contraints I can't contribute to this topic at the moment (nor any other topic); however I would imagine (from a lay point of view of course) that a good approach is to look into divergence in Semitic languages as Greenberg did with Proto-AA languages (as quoted above by Rasol). Has any such study been completed?

---

Actually, a thread was created recently in dedication to Semitic lanuages, particularly in the Horn of Africa; it was just overlooked:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001856.html

Also, the Afrasan language group was discussed before, in a thread entirely dedicated to that subject:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001301.html

posted 27 April 2005 04:19 PM            

Dejehuti writes:

quote:

---

The Peopling of East Africa

...The original (human) inhabitants of East Africa were probably hunter-gatherers who spoke click languages similar to the Khoisan people. The Sandawe and maybe the Hadza of Tanzania are perhaps the only direct descendants remaining in East Africa today. Over thousands of years, these people retreated or were absorbed as others migrated into the area. This later peopling of East Africa was carried out by three main African groups: the Cushitic-speaking peoples; the Nilotic-speaking peoples; and lastly the Bantu-speaking peoples. All these groupings are based on linguistic and cultural patterns and comprise the ancestors of most present-day East Africans– the Black Africans.
The Cushitic people originated from the Ethiopian Highlands and were the first known food producers in East Africa. They spread out from their original dispersal site to occupy most of northeastern Africa and some also migrated south. The Cushitic peoples probably already reached the Kenyan Higlands by c.1000BCE. The Oromo of Ethiopia and northeast Kenya are Eastern Cushitics. The Nilotes probably originated from Sahel in the west and migrated east to the Nile River region of southern Sudan. They moved later moved further east until they reached the southwestern borders of the Ethiopian Highlands. The Nilotes are further divided into three branches based on where they migrated to: the Highland and Plains Nilotes (who are also part Cushitic) and the River-Lake Nilotes. Between 1000BCE and 1500CE, the Highland and Plains Nilotes migrated into the highlands and plains of Kenya and Tanzania. The Maasai and the Karamojong are Plains Nilotes. The River Lake Nilotes, however, followed the Nile Valley and settled in the lakes region of northern Uganda or traveled north to present-day southern Sudan. The Bantu people originated in eastern Nigeria. At first, they spread through the equatorial rainforest belt and then, between 500BCE and 300CE, eastward and southward into East and Southern Africa. Later migrations– from the south to the east– further dispersed them throughout the region. The Kikuyu, Ganda, Nyoro and Nyamwezi people are all Bantu in origin, as are most of the population of East Africa, but are confined mainly to the regions south of the Horn....

Dr. Elizabeth Dunstan and David Hall
of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.

---

posted 29 April 2005 01:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by soma17:
The somali people consists of many groups whom claim patrilineal descent from arabs and two of the bigger clans the darod and isaq are classic examples. They alone are probably 50% or possibly more of the total somali population. Is this claim fictional or is there any truth.

---

High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males.

Sanchez JJ, Hallenberg C, Borsting C, Hernandez A, Morling N.

1Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.

We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%).The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster gamma) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13.[/b The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs ('minimal haplotype') was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2(*)(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3(*)(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1(*)(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2(*)(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J(*)(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population - closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya - with predominant E3b1 cluster gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 9 March 2005; doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390.

posted 29 April 2005 05:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by soma17:
The somali people consists of many groups whom claim patrilineal descent from arabs and two of the bigger clans the darod and isaq are classic examples. They alone are probably 50% or possibly more of the total somali population. Is this claim fictional or is there any truth.

---

Some Muslims around the world claim Arab descent, or 'better yet', direct descent from Mohammad, and this includes West Africans, Indonesians, etc..

And certainly some Somali have Arab admixture, and it is in the interest of "arabisation" to propagate such mythology.

posted 29 April 2005 10:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by soma17:
[B]I understand what you two are trying to say but claiming descent patrilineally if that's a word from the prophet muhammed pbuh is one thing and a yemenian or iraqi is another thing.

---

Most Somali do not descend from Yemeni or Iraqi, or the prophet Mohammad, or course.

Most descend from idigenous East Africans.

That does not mean that there is no admixture of course, but the Somali originate biologically in East Africa, not in Yemen or Iraq. That's the point.

quote:

---

Somali origins: Evidence places the Somalis within a wide family of peoples called Eastern Cushites by modern linguists and described earlier in some instances as Hamites. From a broader cultural-linguistic perspective, the Cushite family belongs to a vast stock of languages and peoples considered Afro-Asiatic. Afro-Asiatic languages in turn include Cushitic (principally Somali, Oromo, and Afar), the Hausa language of Nigeria, and the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Medieval Arabs referred to the Eastern Cushites as the Berberi.

In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.

The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.

The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 bc - A.D.http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm

---

posted 29 April 2005 12:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by soma17:
[B]rasol what you don't understand is I believe they are indigenous to east africa however what I'm trying to get across to you is that certain groups of somali's believe there forefather about 25-30 generations was an arab man

---

I understand exactly what you are trying to relate. The problem is based upon anthropological and biological evidence, what you are trying to relate is not accurate.

quote:

---

So what I'm getting at is I have cousins who there father's are what we term as mawalad half somali half arab and they married full blooded somali's. That essentially mean my cousins along with I am 75% somali and 25% yemenian. However you probably couldn't tell that my cousin's werent' you're typical somali's.

---

posted 29 April 2005 01:13 PM            

It's curious that only in the case of Africa that any step outside the continnt is supposed to confer a whole new identity when in the case of Europe or Asia this is not the case. Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines are off the coast of East Asia yet Japanese despite their intense--but controlled--dislike of Koreans a nd Chinese [b]are not taken to be genotypically distinct from their mainland cousins[b/]. The same holds for the Filipinos despite being looked down on by the Chinese.